Have you "let yourself go" after getting married?

[Tree House Academy]

Yeah, your husband buying you a gym membership and suggesting you lose some weight is not exactly much different than a slap in the face, IMO. My ex did that too! And it is all perception. I mean, is she the slug he makes her out to be, or is she a decent wife...just not living up to his "standards?"

[Heather in Neverland]

For him to be talking this way to you. I really do. I can't even tell you how it would make me feel to find out my husband was talking about my weight and my dress and housekeeping in a negative way with his sister.

 

Working 30 hours a week is sort of a lot for a woman with a child. I bet she feels like the housework is at least partly his responsibility, but I don't know that she really thinks about that. And she needs to talk about it with him. And he needs to talk about it with her, not you. Even if he doesn't get the response he wants from her, I just don't think it's right to blab that way to your relatives. I'm a woman, and we supposedly are the "talkers" but I would NEVER talk my list of complaints to my sisters, even though we are close and talk a lot. I don't think they would let me, and I wouldn't listen to them do it either.

 

Just wondering...when you have a problem in your marriage and you want to work it out with your husband but you are not sure how to approach it, or if maybe you are overreacting, or maybe you've tried to talk and it didn't go so well so you are hoping for a new perspective, a different approach...who do you talk to? A best friend? Your mom? Your pastor? No one?

 

I am his best friend and believe me, talking to me about his relationship is the best thing that has happened to his relationship (at least for him). There have been many times that I have been the voice of reason and told him he was wrong before it went too far and he did or said something stupid. And there have been times when I was angry at my dh for something but after talking to my brother about it he made me see that I was the one who was wrong.

 

We are not "gossiping" about her, getting a good chuckle behind her back. He is truly upset and wants help. How is it any different than going to a counselor? And does she know we talk? Absolutely.

 

And for the record, I work full time and so does my dh and we homeschool and I am taking 2 graduate classes and my home is clean and I do not let myself go...it can be done if you work as a team.

[readwithem]

His talking to you about it, and your talking on a public forum about it are two different things. ;)

Edited November 24, 2008 by readwithem

[Erica in PA]

Yeah, I have. I struggle with it greatly-- I want to be my best for dh, but I haven't been able to get there yet. I do feel guilty about it, and want to do better, but it's very, very hard for me. I would say that unless someone has been in these shoes, it's easy to judge, and difficult to relate. I would just say it's harder than you might think to get to that point of looking your best, when you have a long way to go.

 

I am blessed to have a dh who can see past my faults and loves me and thinks I'm beautiful anyway.

 

ETA: Wow, I didn't mean to sound like such a downer! LOL I just wanted to express that it is a difficult, complex situation to be in when you have gained weight over the years, and it's not as easy as just thinking of your husband. Losing large amounts of weight is a difficult, daunting task with many factors involved. It can be done, but people who have always been thin probably don't realize how very overwhelming and complicated it can be.

Edited November 24, 2008 by Erica in PA

[Danestress]

And does she know we talk? Absolutely.

 

 

 

Well, that's different then. If he knows that she knows he's talked about her weight and how she dresses and keeps house with you, and she's okay with that, then I take it back. Does she know about the whole bait and switch thing? That he shared that with you?

 

But I must say that a wife that easygoing would be a treasure. he should at least adore her for that quality. I would absolutely be horrified if my husband talked about things like that with someone and there would be h@ll to pay, lol. I would feel so belittled. A counselor, to me, is different. I don't have to eat Thanksgiving with the counselor and feel like she's keeping track of what I eat, and I don't have a relationship with her.

 

Realistically, though, the truth hurts. No one wants a husband to talk to anyone about weight, because we all want to believe our husbands love our extra pounds (and I'm pretty thin, but I have been heavier in the past, so I think I remember how sensitive I felt). Some of them probably don't love that weight, and maybe it's just the truth and it's his to share. I don't know. I just think it's very sensitive.

 

And if I have a problem with my husband that I think he would be at all touchy about, I wouldn't talk about it with my sisters. I wouldn't want him to look bad to my sisters. I could talk to them about, "He likes this house and I want the one by the lake, and we are having a hard time agreeing" type things because those aren't loaded with criticisms that go to his character or attractiveness.

[Lovedtodeath]

Birth Control can make (most that I know of) women gain weight, and IMO is the number 1 reason they gain weight after marriage. Um.... 4 year old. Probably takes her time/energy. She may have to prioritize things and does not have the time she used to have for getting pretty. Childbearing can make women gain weight. Having a child requires time that you could be using otherwise to cook healthy or work out. Having a child can be stressful and cause a mom to indulge in high calorie snacks.

 

What about for better or for worse? Working part time really stinks b/c you still get all of the responsibilities at home. She would be better off quitting or working the same hours as him so he can't put it all on her.

[gardening momma]

I am his best friend

She needs to be his best friend. That might be part of the problem.

[always cookin']

I would be really, really angry if my husband talked to his family about me in any negative way AT ALL. That is very private. Marriage is sacred. You talk to each other, you think about things on your own. If necessary, read books, try new approaches, seek counseling.

 

I am glad you have managed to accomplish all you do as a team. However, criticizing in the way that your brother does, is not going to help his marriage. For some of us, it is a struggle.

[Julie in CA]

He is truly upset and wants help. How is it any different than going to a counselor? And does she know we talk? Absolutely.

 

 

I'm sorry, but it's waaay different than going to a counselor. For one thing, your sil would never have to face the counselor in social situations for the rest of her life.

 

Imo, just the fact that he's resistant to seeking professional help means that he's a big part of the problem. If he were truly sincere in his desire to improve things, he'd be going the extra mile whether or not he thinks it would be worth the time.

 

-Just a thought...

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Imo, just the fact that he's resistant to seeking professional help means that he's a big part of the problem.

 

Hmmm, no....

 

Some people just refuse to see counselors. Me, for example.

I went once, and found it to be a complete waste of time. Luckily for me, due to extraneous circumstances, and counseling was free. I left, very very angry, angrier than when I got in.

 

I wouldn't assume his refusal to mean he's a part of the problem.

[Lovedtodeath]

And for the record, I work full time and so does my dh and we homeschool and I am taking 2 graduate classes and my home is clean and I do not let myself go...it can be done if you work as a team.

Galations 6:4 But let each one prove what his own work is, and then he will have cause for exultation in regard to himself alone, and not in comparison with the other person. 5 For each one will carry his own load.

This scripture looks applicable.

 

From everything you have said it sounds very much like he is judging her adversely, and to be honest, like you are too.

 

For the record, I was married for 7 and a half years before having kids. I went from a size 8 to a size 14 during that time. I developed Hypothyroid and ADD, both of which were undiagnosed for over 6 years. I was a horrible wife. Sick all of the time for no reason (hypochondriac, I wanted to have excuses to be "lazy" ), bad housekeeper, had to keep cutting down my hours at work, gained weight... the list goes on. I started to improve in all areas... then we had DD. Everything went back out of control until she was 4. Things started to improve. Then we had DS. Everything went back out of control, and still is.

 

Everyone has different energy levels. Everyone has different levels of organization. For some (like me) it is really impossible to keep the house up even if it is the number one goal in life (and should it be?). As far as gaining weight, do you all really think anyone wants to get fat?

 

If he is having problems with his marriage, I recommend Dr. Phil's "Relationship Rescue" book. He can also offer to help her with some things. Watch the kid while she goes to the gym, or cleans and organizes. Hire someone to clean and/or organize, go on a diet with her... etc.

[always cookin']

I don't have a lot of faith in them, in general. I have been to one once and yes, it was a waste of time. But if my marriage was in trouble, and I couldn't work it out with my husband, I would definitely give it a try. What is there to lose at this point? ( a little time/money?) It is definitely better than trying to hash it out with family members. That is not a wise move as many other posters have already pointed out.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

 

And for the record, I work full time and so does my dh and we homeschool and I am taking 2 graduate classes and my home is clean and I do not let myself go...it can be done if you work as a team.

Yes, but YOU are not HER. Everyone has a different energy level, different emotional thermostat. Just because you do something doesn't mean every other person will be able to do it. And maybe your idea of teamwork is different than your BIL's & his wife's.

What this boils down to is you are getting one side to the story. Maybe She expected more time from this husband of hers who is now working 60+ hours per week. Does she get a chance to do anything she used to enjoy, before marriage? Did she think it would be easier to have a kid?

Maybe she all she needs someone to come in and clean for her a couple of hours each week. This is not a huge investment and if that's all it would take to make your brother happy, I suggest he spring for a maid service (it would probably be less expensive than an unused gym membership).

One thing I have learned is that nothing is ever all one person's fault.

Maybe your brother needs to do some real soul-searching, some self evaluation, and see if there are areas/attitudes he needs to change. Perhaps if he made some changes, instead of trying to make his wife change, his situation would change. Perhaps it wouldn't, but really what power does he have to change his wife other than changing his own attitudes, reactions, and actions?

[Jami]

I guess this is the benefit of marrying as college students. ;) I was already wearing sweats and jeans most of the time, barely getting my hair pulled together some days when he saw me, and living in a dorm room which was hardly perfectly tidy. Not too high a pedestal to fall from. And I didn't start out thin by any stretch.

 

I suppose we've both improved and deteriorated in some ways in the past 12 years. I could be thinner and neater (though neatness matters less to him than how I mother/teach our children), and he could have skipped that whole depression/bipolar thing a few years back.

 

I like to think that in terms of character and the depth of our relationship we've only changed for the better. But it does get bumpy at times, and that's why vows like "for better or worse, in sickness or in health" are there.

 

My brother has called me a couple of times as a newlywed to ask marriage related questions, but only things like "what kinds of things does J (my dh) do for you that make you feel loved?" Smart kid. ;)

[Kimber]

Amen!

[amy g.]

Wow, this thread makes me so happy that I broke my first two engagements to men who just wanted a trophy wife.

 

This all sounds so shallow and superficial.

 

I could never love a man who cared more about how the house or my body looks than who I am inside.

[jacqui in mo]

Heather, would your db consider reading a book on marriage? I'm reading a fascinating one called "The Exceptional 7 percent", about research on couples who have very deep, meaningful, growing marriages. It talks about having a "Marriage Imperative": basically a set of life goals that you're each working on together and trying to help your mate achieve their goals. It is very inspiring and a fresh way to look at the purpose of marriage and how to improve it.

 

It also talks a lot about how exceptional couples want to be competent people in as many areas as possible and do not consider any they do for the sake of their home environment as a his job/her job only, nor do they keep score on what they do. It also talks about more conventional couples who play "Marital Chicken", trying to change the other person. I think your brother needs to read this information in this well written book. He needs to know that he can't change his spouse. He can only change himself.

 

He could go over this book on his own, then maybe introduce it in a positive way to read with his wife.

 

However, if his wife is depressed, this would be better addressed first, maybe with a doctor visit. I'm not sure his telling her that she needs to go would work though, considering his past track record of trying to tell her what she "needs to do".

 

HTH

Jacqui

[Kate CA]

I am his best friend and believe me, talking to me about his relationship is the best thing that has happened to his relationship (at least for him). There have been many times that I have been the voice of reason and told him he was wrong before it went too far and he did or said something stupid. And there have been times when I was angry at my dh for something but after talking to my brother about it he made me see that I was the one who was wrong.

 

I have to gently say that this would make me very uncomfortable. Sure, she may have given him permission to talk to you, but with the kind of detail he is giving you - do you really think she knows that is going on? "I want to talk to my sister about our marriage" is a far cry from all the detail he has shared with you. I would be very very hurt if my husband was talking about my weight and my housekeeping with his family. Horrified, actually. It is my marriage - my life with my husband. We make it or break it.

 

And for the record, I work full time and so does my dh and we homeschool and I am taking 2 graduate classes and my home is clean and I do not let myself go...it can be done if you work as a team.

I have to (again, gently) say that it does come across as if you have already made your judgments about your SIL. That she is letting herself go in your mind, and that she needs to buck up like you have since you can and do - do so much on your own. She may very well have some of that to do, but it really isn't your place to say those things. Your marriage is a different kind of marriage than your brother's. He is responsible for his own marriage. Does he really love her enough to love her through all things?

 

When you say he has talked to her "about her weight" what does that mean? That is such a painful kind of thing to discuss if he is only really complaining about her looks. I can completely understand why she would cry. I would cry too if I knew in my heart that my husband really just viewed me as letting myself go--and I fully believe that she has received that message from him at this point. We are no dummies and can read our husbands pretty clearly. That is no motivation for making positive change; it would just wound me.

 

If he loves her, they must talk - talk openly but *sensitively* - and they must get some outside counsel by someone with no personal ties to them. It does not seem like she feels safe sharing what is really going on inside her with him, and frankly I wouldn't either. It may be painful for you to read this, but I really believe is not healthy that he shares such intimate details about his marriage with you. You are too close to him to be partial and that has come across here very clearly. I am not saying he should *never* talk to you nor you to him about your marriages, but you know very intimate details about their marriage that I don't share with anyone else but my husband.

 

I completely agree with those who have said to direct them to impartial counsel. I know it is hard to see your loved ones in hurting places. We are there right now with family and impartial counsel may be the only thing that saves their marriage.

[MeanestMomInMidwest]

. ... but you know very intimate details about their marriage that I don't share with anyone else but my husband.

Yes, and now we all do, too.

[Garga]

1. I suggest the book "After the Baby". You can get it at Amazon (and prob. book stores, but there aren't any around here...)

 

Turns out most divorces happen "after the baby" because well...you all have kids! You know what it's like! The relationship between the spouses changes. The book gives some advice on how to handle it.

 

2. Some counselors are rotten and some are excellent. Some are just there to help the divorce process go easier and some are there to really help the couple open up and solve the issues. So, you might want to encourage him not to totally write counselors off.

 

3. I agree with the post about hiring a maid service and also with the one with the 1.2.3 bullet points of what HE could do (since he can't make her change.)

 

4. I was reading a fiction story the other day that talked about people going to the monastery to hear the priests sing and a line said, "People could join in the chanting or just listen, as was their nature." It really struck me "as was their nature." We really are all different.

 

SO, if you brother is like you (and you sound very energetic and vocal and clear in your opinions) then maybe he doesn't understand his wife's nature. Sounds like she may be a slow person who needs a peaceful life with a lot of sitting still and calm activities.

 

5. Since he talks and she cries: It might take her HOURS to actually open up with her feelings, but perhaps he talks to her and expects her to be as open as you are and as forthcoming with her thoughts/opinions. I have a terrible (terrible) time telling people my deepest thoughts/fears, etc. If my husband tried to get something deep out of me in under an hour, it wouldn't happen. It takes a looong time. You never really know what sort of walls she has around her from childhood, etc.

 

Sorry so long!

 

Oh, and

 

6. I also agree about flylady but maybe for him too! ;) Flylady always says that if you want a clean house, just do it yourself and stop grousing about the rest of the family not joining in.

[jamnkats]

He calls it the "marital bait and switch".

 

So what says the hive? Is it disrespectful to your spouse to let yourself go after you get married?

 

I'm sorry, but your brother is (can't think of how to put this nicely). To call it "bait and switch"????

 

I totally let myself go after the 3rd kid. But I'm not sure when we married - it might have been before her, so yeah, i guess I let myself go after marriage. We really don't think that piece of paper has much merit anyway, so I'm pretty sure it wasn't the piece of paper that did it.

 

Now that my youngest is 7 (well, in May of this year) I finally got fed up and started getting my body back together. But I was never vain or a primpy kind of person - never wore makeup or the latest styles - just nice clothes and I worked out. I'm getting my body back in shape now - but it is totally for ME, not him (though he is loving it, but loved me before also).

 

On edit - I read the rest of the responses and agree with eveyrone that you have overstepped a line in discussing his marriage in such detail. I think that when you have such an overwhelming majority telling you that it is something to consider.

 

Second, *I* am my husband's best friend and he is mine. I love my sister but she is not my best friend. I think that statement of yours speaks volumes.

 

I don't think your brother is a bad guy but I do feel sorry for your SIL.

Edited November 24, 2008 by jamnkats

[Peek a Boo]

I guess my reason for the OP is to get an idea of what is normal, acceptable change in marriage (people do gain weight, people do go bald) and what is our responsibility in a marriage? My brother is very big on responsibility...he is a very responsible person. He sees her letting herself go as a sign that she doesn't care enough about him any more to want to look good for him. She "knows" how hard he works and what long hours and being able to come home to a clean house and warm dinner makes him feel loved.

 

 

aaarrrrggghh!!

 

this is SOOO dh.

 

and i filed for divorce.

 

if your brother doesn't figure out that His Idea of Respect is NOT her Idea of Respect then he'll be dealing w/ Legal Paper Pushers in his haste to avoid Opinion Pushers. Showing of respect is NOT a one way street. does he see this marriage mostly as a business relationship?? that's what it sounds like when he uses terms like Bait and Switch.

 

If he expects her to show him respect His Way then he needs to figure out how to show her respect Her Way: what does she consider 'respectful'? why isn't he meeting that?

 

what does he think about the vows he took --have you walked him through that?

 

did she keep the house clean and have dinner on the table before they were married, or was that merely His Plan?

 

eta: and does he want to FEEL loved, or does he want to BE loved? there IS a difference.

 

His view of how things 'should work' in this marriage is obviously NOT working.

He needs to contemplate Plan B and counseling or he'll be headed to Plan D.

 

It might take a few tries to find a good counselor too --dh and i went to a few duds before finding someone who could actually communicate to dh.

 

 

----------

no, I didn't 'let myself go,' but THAT's rarely the problem.......

 

and yes, i believe people who are in a marriage where someone outright LIED to get married should be dissolved if that's what the person lied to needs. But i also think that if he married her expecting A Certain Course of Action and she simply isn't able to deliver that his way, that's a 'for worse' kind of situation, not a deceitful lie.

[Kimber]

I think it's good of you to try and help. But I would encourage him to try and help her. Things might change, if she felt more support. She might just be going through a stage in her life where she's overwhelmed and dissapointed that her life is not what she wants to be--whatever that is. It might not have anything to do with him, at all.

Edited November 24, 2008 by Kimber

[Julie in CA]

Hmmm, no....

 

Some people just refuse to see counselors. Me, for example.

I went once, and found it to be a complete waste of time. Luckily for me, due to extraneous circumstances, and counseling was free. I left, very very angry, angrier than when I got in.

 

I wouldn't assume his refusal to mean he's a part of the problem.

 

I strongly disagree. If the man is desperate enough that he *needs* to share intimate details with his sister, clearly he needs someone else to confide in that won't cause even more problems between him and his wife.

 

I also feel like I need to comment one one other thing--going *once* does not necessarily mean the same thing as seeking counseling. Some care needs to be taken to find the right counselor, and to establish a therapeutic relationship.

 

This sounds like a marriage going downhill fast, and if I were that guy I'd be truly trying everything to make it better rather than complaining to family.

[Lovedtodeath]

Okay... I thought of something. Letting herself get overweight and not fixing herself up... not cleaning the house or making dinner is disrespecting him?

 

What about herself? Doesn't she like living in a clean house? Doesn't she like being pretty? Doesn't she like eating dinner? I know I enjoy all of these things. Yet I still struggle. I am overweight, don't have time to make myself up as I used to... don't have the money for a fancy wardrobe, don't get to dinner b/c I am caring for children (or because I forgot I was supposed to be making it... ADD). I know that in my case my failure to do these things has nothing to do with respect for my husband. And another question: Why would he assume that it does?

[Kate CA]

Hmmm, no....

 

Some people just refuse to see counselors. Me, for example.

I went once, and found it to be a complete waste of time. Luckily for me, due to extraneous circumstances, and counseling was free. I left, very very angry, angrier than when I got in.

 

I wouldn't assume his refusal to mean he's a part of the problem.

 

But not every counselor is a bad one. :001_smile: There are some situations that just cannot be properly worked out on one's own. (IMHO, of course.) I think the type and personality of the counselor makes all the difference in the world. There are some offices I would not set foot in for all the money in the world and then there are some that are worth every penny. :001_smile:

[Lovedtodeath]

Relationship Rescue is counseling in a book. It does not take sides. Both people read it, both make changes separately, and both work together. It worked really well for us and we were on the brink of divorce with adultery on both sides.

[Tammy]

and I think it is important to keep yourself 'attractive' for your dh and the same holds true for your dh.

 

.

[Danestress]

That it's great that you can work and go to school, homeschool and keep the house nice. You are a beautiful woman and obviously very smart and talented. If I were an overweight, overwhelmed working Mom who found it hard to keep my act together, I would feel extra bad that my husband complained to his gorgeous, accomplished sister. I know it CAN be done. But some women really struggle so much more than others. For some reason, I find it much easier to keep house than my sister, even though she only has one child.

 

But Heather, I didn't mean to start a "gang up on Heather's brother" thing. It's really really good that you two are close, and it also seems really good that he's able to be so articulate about what bothers him. If he is willing to talk to you, he's probably a guy who is willing to get counseling or talk to her too. He's got that going for him, and that's A LOT. Just ask a woman whose husband won't talk to her or anyone!

 

I'm sorry if we've all been too blunt. I hope you aren't sitting on the other side of the screen feeling attacked. It takes a long time to sort out how to do marriage well, and five years isn't much time. Maybe she needs to think about how "love" looks like to him, and maybe he needs to think about how he's making her look to you, but those are terrible mistakes. I probably did worse things in the first five year!

 

Love Dana

[Kate CA]

I'm sorry if we've all been too blunt. I hope you aren't sitting on the other side of the screen feeling attacked.

 

:001_smile: :iagree: :001_smile:

[dirty ethel rackham]

They obviously have some communication issues. He complains, she cries. That about sums it up.

.

That pattern, combined with his comments about her weight screams depression and low self-esteem on her part. Who wouldn't be depressed having a spouse who is so critical? Who would be able to find the energy to please such a shallow person?

 

I guess my reason for the OP is to get an idea of what is normal, acceptable change in marriage (people do gain weight, people do go bald) and what is our responsibility in a marriage? My brother is very big on responsibility...he is a very responsible person. He sees her letting herself go as a sign that she doesn't care enough about him any more to want to look good for him. She "knows" how hard he works and what long hours and being able to come home to a clean house and warm dinner makes him feel loved.

.

What about his responsibility to her? Does it end with the paycheck? What about what makes her feel loved? Criticism and comments about her weight? Let me see, working 24 hours a week, caring for a child and a home and a hubby who works long hours - who is filling her emotional bank account?

 

I

've thought about having a heart-to-heart with her since counseling is unlikely but he has not asked me to and I don't know if I'd be overstepping my bounds. I do not want them to get divorced. I love her very much

 

 

If you love her very much, encourage your brother to

1. take Jennifer's advice.

2. Go to marriage counseling - the communication issues in this marriage need work - lots of it and a counselor would be the best person to help them.

3. If he won't go (and it sounds like he sees all the problems as being her fault), encourage her to get some counseling for herself - that she seems unhappy and not her usual self and that she deserves it.

[Garga]

 

I'm sorry if we've all been too blunt. I hope you aren't sitting on the other side of the screen feeling attacked.

 

 

:iagree:

[Nestof3]

One thing that strikes me is that you are posting this on a predominantly female board, so you are not likely to get very much understanding from your brother's point of view. I'm sure if you were to go to a male forum, you'd get a very different response.

 

Likewise, a lot of women post how their husbands feel about them -- about whether they've let themselves go, about the importance of appearances and such, but most men will not be terribly blunt about any of it. They are smart. When a woman asks, for example, if she looks fat in something, most men would not say "Yes." I am sure there's a lot that goes on in a husband's mind that he would not share for fear of hurting his wife's feelings or starting World War 3.

 

Try reading a predominantly male forum on relationships or one where the gender balances out. I think sometimes we over-feminize men -- thinking they operate like women do.

 

You are also likely to get all sorts of hurt feelings about relationships women on this board have had that share a similar thread or touch a nerve.

 

For what it's worth, I just want to recommend a great book, "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands."

[laughing lioness]

I've only read a little bit of this but I wanted to offer a couple of things. Marriage is a crucible. We are being refined through it. Many times we think marriage is about changing or fixing the other person so that we can be happy but the reality is that marriage is something that changes and matures us, if we let it, so that we can be happy.

Secondly, I have a genetic disorder that has radically changed my body. Believe me, I do not look like the woman my dh married. It grieves me to no end. Other people stare and kids ask "rude" (curious) questions. My dh- he loves me, he desires me, he doesn't see what everyone else sees. He sees the art in me. I am his woman, no matter what.

Lastly, I have grown and changed in the last 23 years, as has my dh. Both of us are older and it shows physically. We are not the same people that we were 2 years ago or 20 years ago. We are committed to growing and changing together. We are both smarter, wiser, funnier and gentler. Imho, trading some physical "beauty" for wisdom was not a bad trade.

My dh has been in the mental health field for over 20 years. We call it "the greatest unreached mission field in N. America.:001_smile:" There are many quacks in the field but there are some great paracletes as well. I woudn't discount altogether the healing and transformation that a wise counsleor can guide one through.

All of the best to you and your brother.

[Guest janainaz]

I've got friends with marriage issues, it's easy to see a, b, and c from an outside perspective. There is nothing you can do to make your brother not care about certain things and nothing you can do to make your SIL care. It is what it is. You can offer words of wisdom, you can encourage them to seek some counseling, but it is only as good as a couple is truly willing to look within. Your brother has to solely focus on his issues, your SIL has to solely focus on hers. If they are not willing to change from within, you are wasting your breath.

 

I have learned after doing all kinds of marriage studies, reading books, yada yada, that the best recipe for change in a marriage is love and acceptance. When you feel completely loved, or know that your spouse is there for the long-haul, it does allow you to change for the right reasons. Coming home with a list of "if he does A, I will do B and it will result in C" is a recipe for failure becuase two people are changing for an overall outcome instead of for themselves. So, if you SIL, is not happy with herself, there is not an amount of love in the world that can get her to care. She has to do it for her. And vice versa.

 

Give them the truth and get out of it.

[Karen in CO]

:iagree:

 

It is funny to me that nestof3 and I agree about this. Maybe I should start stalking her on other threads too.

 

Anyway.

[Lovedtodeath]

One thing that strikes me is that you are posting this on a predominantly female board, so you are not likely to get very much understanding from your brother's point of view. I'm sure if you were to go to a male forum, you'd get a very different response.

 

Likewise, a lot of women post how their husbands feel about them -- about whether they've let themselves go, about the importance of appearances and such, but most men will not be terribly blunt about any of it. They are smart. When a woman asks, for example, if she looks fat in something, most men would not say "Yes." I am sure there's a lot that goes on in a husband's mind that he would not share for fear of hurting his wife's feelings or starting World War 3.

 

For what it's worth, I just want to recommend a great book, "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands."

 

He feels disrespected and unloved because his wife has let herself and the house go. If this is his only reason for feeling this way, he is most likely wrong and needs to change his viewpoint.

 

What about herself? Doesn't she like living in a clean house? Doesn't she like being pretty? Doesn't she like eating dinner? I know I enjoy all of these things. Yet I still struggle. I am overweight, don't have time to make myself up as I used to... don't have the money for a fancy wardrobe, don't get to dinner b/c I am caring for children (or because I forgot I was supposed to be making it... ADD). I know that in my case my failure to do these things has nothing to do with respect for my husband. And another question: Why would he assume that it does?

 

So, now. If he is right, and she actually does not respect or love him, what should he do about it?

There is nothing you can do to make your brother not care about certain things and nothing you can do to make your SIL care. It is what it is. Your brother has to solely focus on his issues, your SIL has to solely focus on hers. If they are not willing to change from within, you are wasting your breath.

 

So, if you SIL, is not happy with herself, there is not an amount of love in the world that can get her to care. She has to do it for her. And vice versa.

 

:iagree:I only want to add that it may be that SIL really does care about keeping up with the house and/or losing weight and is just not capable of doing it.

Edited November 24, 2008 by Lovedtodeath

[OnTheBrink]

Something my pastor tells everyone who goes through pre-marital counseling is that when marriage problems arise, NEVER run to a family member. For one thing, it is betrayal to the spouse. Secondly, it often turns into a situation where the problem gets resolved and the family holds it against the in-law far longer than the situation warrants.

 

Now, this doesn't apply in situations of abuse. Of course, if there is physical danger, you need to get yourself to a safe place. But, if there are real issues that need the help of a third party, you find a neutral third party, such as a counselor, pastor, trusted mutual friend who has the maturity to not take sides. Not a family member.

 

Once the SIL finds out how much you know about her life, she's most likely going to be very embarrassed and feel terrible around you. I think, for the sake of your brother's marriage, you need to direct him to someone who can actually help the situation, not just listen to him bash his wife to his family.

 

EX's family bashed me to my face a LOT, all based on stuff exMIL would say. EX would never defend me or stand for me, so they all believed the crap MIL would say. Knowing everyone believed they knew bad things about me made family gatherings torturous.

[amy g.]

I'm trying, but I just can't see this from his point of view.

 

If one of my daughters married a man who acted like that. I would not be able to pay for the divorce lawyer fast enough. "Come on, honey, and bring my cute little 4 year old grandchild to live with grandma!"

 

I'm not saying I'm RIGHT, but I could not stand to see someone I love disrespected and objectified in that manner.

[LauraGB]

In Heather's defense about posting about this on a public forum, let me just say that this is not the most personal thing I've seen posted here. I think the fact that she came here, for advice from "the hive" is not necessarily a bad thing. I don't know Heather, which means I don't know her family, which means that this is a pretty safe place to ask a question, imo. Her brother obviously needs some advice, and rightly or wrongly, he chose to go to his sister (which, as I pointed out in an earlier post is better than some of the other places he *could have* gone for advice), who, in turn, posted on a familiar forum full of people who obviously put family/children first. I'm assuming she did this for extra ammo/advice to offer her brother, rather than to "gossip".

 

It was suggested that if "dh" posted about family affairs on a public forum that the proverbial feces would hit the fan (don't remember exactly how that one from a few days ago went, but it was funny, btw). I would agree that if my dh went to a forum and posted about marital issues, I would be upset. Ridiculously so. But I would also see a real NEED there, as well. And lets face it, most dhs are NOT going to go to a forum where they discuss family style relationships like we do. But the major point is that the brother/dh did not do this; the sister stuck in the middle looking for extra advice did.

 

I hope you found the info you were needing to help your brother w/his marriage issues, Heather. There were some really helpful suggestions and wisdom offered here. I hope you are able to share it and things get better for your brother and SIL.

[WTMindy]

I have skimmed a few responses enough to know that more people think your brother is at fault rather than the other way around. I want to share my experience. Since we got married my dh has let me know that it is important to him that I not gain a lot of weight. I'm not talking about unrealistic, unhealthy skinny (I am NOT that). But, I work hard at this because I know it is important to him. Would he love me no matter what? Absolutely!! Does it mean a lot to him that I exercise and eat carefully? Very much!! And he does the same for me. A clean house is also important to my dh. So, I try and keep it tidy for him. And he helps with this as well. When we first got married he was way tidier than I was, but over the years we have become about the same. There are things that I don't do naturally well that I am working on for him. There are also just as many things that he doesn't do naturally well that he is working on for me.

 

I don't think it is wrong for a dh to express his desires to his wife. Of course, how he does this is very important. I belive in marriage we should do things for our spouses just because it is important to them. I am crazy about my husband. He has very high standards and I am thankful because I don't settle for less in myself. He expresses his love to me in many ways and he makes as many changes for me as I do for him. But, it has to be a two way street, NOT a one-way street. It isn't that my dh wouldn't love me or accept me if I gained weight, but I really try hard because I know it matters to him.

 

I think it would be great if they could talk about the things that they really wish the other person would do without getting defensive and in a loving way.

Edited November 24, 2008 by WTMindy

[bkpan]

Heather,

 

Your heart is to help your brother and his marriage. Then, as many others have stated, prayerfully give some thought to the close relationship you share with him. Many years ago I would have said that my brother was my "best friend" as well. It took awhile, but eventually I "heard" the hurt that this had caused my dh. I am to be his best friend and he is to be mine. Anything else is unhealthy. My brother saw that before me, and, I think, pulled back some so that our relationship could get to the healthy place it should be.

 

Your brother knows intuitively that you support him. That may get in the way of his willingness to see another counselor, as well as his need for self-examination and repentance.

 

I just offer you this to reflect on. I do think that the most loving thing you could offer your brother is to not allow him to share such intimate details with his sister of his marriage. It may come back to haunt you both. Pray for them instead. HTH

 

Kim

[Heather in Neverland]

I would like to thank all of you for your replies. The book suggestions have been noted and I will be giving them to him. I really did not intend for this to become so much about how awful my brother is or how he "bashes" his wife to me on the phone. I know I can tell you a million times that he is asking these questions in all sincerity and you are still going to think that just because he is unhappy with the enormous amount of weight gain he is a shallow jerk.

 

I asked because I needed some perspective that I admit I don't really have to give him. I admit that I don't get what her problem is with the housework. She has one child, she is NOT homeschooling, and works part-time. I just don't get why it is so hard for her to keep her house clean. I admit that I don't get what you mean when you say some women are "incapable" of it. What does that mean? How hard is it to pick up a broom? That's why I asked because I don't get it and I was hoping you would help me get it.

 

Some have suggested she is depressed. I am not sure as she seems like a pretty happy person to me but I am going to suggest that to my brother.

 

I am sorry some of you are offended that my brother confides in me but I don't see anything wrong with it. He isn't telling me anything I can't see with my own eyes (the weight, the messy house). We don't talk about their sex life for goodness sake.

 

I will share your advice with him...that was the point of all this after all. But I have a hard time agreeing with those who think that there are no limits in a marriage, no obligations. Marriage is a partnership. Each person contributes to it. Yes it is about love but at some point, the dishes have to get done. ;)

 

Thanks again to those who offered ideas and books. I feel a little better armed for my next conversation with him.

[Heather in Neverland]

In Heather's defense about posting about this on a public forum, let me just say that this is not the most personal thing I've seen posted here. I think the fact that she came here, for advice from "the hive" is not necessarily a bad thing. I don't know Heather, which means I don't know her family, which means that this is a pretty safe place to ask a question, imo. Her brother obviously needs some advice, and rightly or wrongly, he chose to go to his sister (which, as I pointed out in an earlier post is better than some of the other places he *could have* gone for advice), who, in turn, posted on a familiar forum full of people who obviously put family/children first. I'm assuming she did this for extra ammo/advice to offer her brother, rather than to "gossip".

 

It was suggested that if "dh" posted about family affairs on a public forum that the proverbial feces would hit the fan (don't remember exactly how that one from a few days ago went, but it was funny, btw). I would agree that if my dh went to a forum and posted about marital issues, I would be upset. Ridiculously so. But I would also see a real NEED there, as well. And lets face it, most dhs are NOT going to go to a forum where they discuss family style relationships like we do. But the major point is that the brother/dh did not do this; the sister stuck in the middle looking for extra advice did.

 

I hope you found the info you were needing to help your brother w/his marriage issues, Heather. There were some really helpful suggestions and wisdom offered here. I hope you are able to share it and things get better for your brother and SIL.

 

 

Thank you...you said it better than I have!!

[Peek a Boo]

I have a hard time agreeing with those who think that there are no limits in a marriage, no obligations. Marriage is a partnership. Each person contributes to it. Yes it is about love but at some point, the dishes have to get done. ;).

 

oh, there ARE limits and obligations!

 

but if his complaining and lack of respect for who she is makes her feel like crap, then he's exceeding those limits and shouldn't be surprised when the dishes DON't get done ;)

 

picking up a broom is easy: it's anticipating the griping and complaining that puts a damper on it.

 

and I do agree that she doesn't necessarily have to be depressed: did she EVER keep a clean house and dinner on the table every night?

[Heather in Neverland]

and I do agree that she doesn't necessarily have to be depressed: did she EVER keep a clean house and dinner on the table every night?

 

They did not live together before marriage so he didn't have any idea in advance (but I told him he should have guessed because her mother's house is very messy).

[*anj*]

 

 

But I also think that many a man out there would get a great surprise if he loved his wife no matter what. Treated her as if she were beautiful no matter what. And loved her, no matter what.

 

Just one woman's opinion.

 

Nope, that's more than one woman's opinion, Jill.

Thanks for saying this.

 

I haven't read this whole thread. I just can't.

 

But I wanted to make one point.

 

When you grow up you find out that nothing...absobloominlutely nothing is just what you expected it to be like. And I'm quite sure that Heather's brother has been somewhat of a disappointment in his own right. And Heather, I'm not saying that to pick on him, I just mean that we all disappoint one another. That's what we do. It's the human condition.

On the contrary, we often surprise one another with our ability to be great.

 

Jill, this is one of those times that I really miss rep. Your post is definitely deserving of a big old :thumbup:.

[Erica in PA]

I would like to thank all of you for your replies. The book suggestions have been noted and I will be giving them to him. I really did not intend for this to become so much about how awful my brother is or how he "bashes" his wife to me on the phone. I know I can tell you a million times that he is asking these questions in all sincerity and you are still going to think that just because he is unhappy with the enormous amount of weight gain he is a shallow jerk.

 

I asked because I needed some perspective that I admit I don't really have to give him. I admit that I don't get what her problem is with the housework. She has one child, she is NOT homeschooling, and works part-time. I just don't get why it is so hard for her to keep her house clean. I admit that I don't get what you mean when you say some women are "incapable" of it. What does that mean? How hard is it to pick up a broom? That's why I asked because I don't get it and I was hoping you would help me get it.

 

 

Different people struggle with different things. You find keeping up with housework, and keeping slim, to be manageable. Some people do not. Perhaps there are things that you find difficult to do or be, that might come naturally to someone else. Surely there is some area where you have a weakness-- I am sure there are women here who find that particular issue easy to deal with. Would you like to hear them wondering why you can't get it together in that area?

 

You don't have to "get why it is so hard for her to keep her house clean." All you have to know is that it *is* difficult for her, just like some things are difficult for all of us. I would simply encourage my brother to be the very best husband he can be, despite his wife's failings. And I would encourage her to do the same, because her husband has flaws too.

 

Erica

[helena]

I think a lot of women TOTALLY give up. And for a lot of men that feels like a raw deal. Why are women so quick to dismiss men like that? I can't help but wonder if women that are criticizing this guy, are gals like the wife described in o.p.? A lot of men don't expect their ladies to look like some Brazilian underware model, I think these guys want a girl who makes an effort, it's a joyful thing to doll yourself up. There are so many good reasons for why you didn't get around to cleaning yourself up day after day, but it never feels as good as taking 15 minutes to fix your hair, dab some perfume, powder your face, put on something that doesn't have stains on it, and greet your hubby with a smile on your face. I have lupus... I feel awful all the time. Keeping up my appearance has been the most positive thing I have done, for both my husband, and myself. I don't want to give up, and loose my spark. My husband recognizes this and feels so lucky to have me. He knows that I understand something about HIM, and that I don't begrudge him for it. I also think that there is a lot of of strange negativity from women that don't place much value in looks and, or weight towards women who do. I was at a dinner tonight and a bigger woman used the term skinny b***h. All the women just laughed! That kind of thing happens a lot. Could you imagine if a skinny girl at this dinner said "fat cow". I have no problem understanding that there are all kinds of women in this world, I love them all. I am an artist and I see beauty everywhere I look. But there IS an undeniable nasty attitude towards women who groom, by women who don't. I also think it's to be expected that siblings would confide in each other. If we had to pay a therapist every time you called a family member as a sounding board, we would all be broke, and we would hardly know each other from strangers in the street. Obviously there are rules to this game, I think most of us know when to say, ooo that's to much information , go talk to a professional! I doubt this man would have any problems if he saw effort in any given area, why would he care about dinner, if he knew what he was having for dessert:), or care that another day she's in sweats, if the house is sparkling? It's all about balance, effort, and really actually trying to have a good attitude. People recognize that and appreciate it. It makes the world a better place to live in! P.S.Obviously none of us can ever really know this couples problems, I am writing in a general way.

[newbie]

I didnt read all, but I know somewhere in there, someone mentioned vows, for better or worse, richer or poorer, sick and health.

 

Its all nice and rosy for the first half of all of these, but you hit a patch and it all can go down hill and every flaw is nitpicked to death.

 

Is there really a responsibility, isnt our responsibility to do our best everyday for our family and our kids.

 

Yes, I have slipped, I am the first to admit. There are no more two hr. hair prep sessions, my nails arent done, and I sit in my pjs. I am busy, he can get over it. Its not all rosy on his end.

 

But, we do the best we can, heck we are in our forties. I think we still look good for letting ourselves go. The grass always looks greener, but the pretty grass on the other side might be full of pesticides.