S/o straw thread environmental stuff that’s worse for the consumer

[Ausmumof3]

The straw thread raised something that’s kind of close to home at the moment.

I’m generally speaking a fan of measures that are going to help the environment.  However we are currently in a situation with a car that has been extremely expensive personally due to environmental regulations.  Due to the long distances in the middle of Australia lots of people use diesel utes for towing.  We bought a new vehicle just over five years ago for this purpose mostly.  Previously a diesel Ute was often capable of doing 400k plus miles before becoming financially to difficult to repair.  However the new environment regulations have resulted in a whole new generation of diesel utes that become too expensive to repair at 150-200k instead.  

This is particularly a problem for Australia as the fuel quality here is the poorest in the world.  Anyway, our five year old car has a blown motor and it’s cheaper to replace than repair at this point.  Prior to new regulations this car would most likely have down another five years.

im not sure exactly what my question - I guess I’m questioning whether or not it’s really more environmentally friendly to have to buy a whole new car every five years over having one that runs much dirtier but lasts 15 - 20.

[fairfarmhand]

3 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

The straw thread raised something that’s kind of close to home at the moment.

I’m generally speaking a fan of measures that are going to help the environment.  However we are currently in a situation with a car that has been extremely expensive personally due to environmental regulations.  Due to the long distances in the middle of Australia lots of people use diesel utes for towing.  We bought a new vehicle just over five years ago for this purpose mostly.  Previously a diesel Ute was often capable of doing 400k plus miles before becoming financially to difficult to repair.  However the new environment regulations have resulted in a whole new generation of diesel utes that become too expensive to repair at 150-200k instead.  

This is particularly a problem for Australia as the fuel quality here is the poorest in the world.  Anyway, our five year old car has a blown motor and it’s cheaper to replace than repair at this point.  Prior to new regulations this car would most likely have down another five years.

im not sure exactly what my question - I guess I’m questioning whether or not it’s really more environmentally friendly to have to buy a whole new car every five years over having one that runs much dirtier but lasts 15 - 20.

Yeah.  I know. And I feel the same way about the poor quality appliances we have here in the states that are "water savers" and "uses less electricity." Forget about the fact that these things die after 5 years when my old water hog is over 20 years old!

 

And I was thinking this morning and trying to find facts....My friend talks about how Almond Milk is more environmentally friendly because it doesn't come from cows and cows use lots of water and burp methane. But Almond groves in California are really draining the aquifers...so how does that work? I mean, I have a cow, I live in a fairly wet place, so the water my cow uses comes from the well and doesn't really stress the aquifer.  But I just don't know. 

I've thought the same as you.

[Pen]

Ugh.  It’s cheaper to replace whole vehicle than replace motor? Or cheaper to replace motor than to repair it? 

 

Is there any other solution? 

[prairiewindmomma]

We are having that a bit here with plastic shopping bags. They are no longer available here (paper bags are available for a fee per bag). People are purchasing trash can liners which are thicker online so more plastic is being used than if people judiciously reused plastic bags.

We are one of those families that used reusable shopping bags 90% of the time but still used 3-4 plastic bags a month to line bathroom trash cans.

(Just washing and sunning the cans doesn’t work as the smell impregnates the plastic cans after a few months and the metal cans rust...) If anyone has a link to biodegradable waterproof liners that don’t fall apart I would LOVE it! 

[Ausmumof3]

Just now, Pen said:

Ugh.  It’s cheaper to replace whole vehicle than replace motor? Or cheaper to replace motor than to repair it? 

 

Is there any other solution? 

Whole vehicle 

new motor plus install over $14k

This is now a common scenario - even without a blown motor the diesel particulate filters etc can cost over $10k to replace.  The dirty fuel is supposed to get pushed back into the car and burnt rather than emitted but frequently does damage to the engines.  

Partly the problem is car designs etc coming from Europe I think.  Where it’s pretty viable for people to run electric vehicles etc.  not so much out in the middle of Australia at this point.

Another thing with them is the part that does the burn of the contaminants has caused a few fires.  Typically diesel has been the safe option if you need to drive through a farm paddock with dry grass or crop but isn’t anymore.

hopefully this stuff is all teething issues and eventually will result in designs that are genuinely better for the environment and still reliable for the consumer.

[Ausmumof3]

7 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

We are having that a bit here with plastic shopping bags. They are no longer available here (paper bags are available for a fee per bag). People are purchasing trash can liners which are thicker online so more plastic is being used than if people judiciously reused plastic bags.

We are one of those families that used reusable shopping bags 90% of the time but still used 3-4 plastic bags a month to line bathroom trash cans.

(Just washing and sunning the cans doesn’t work as the smell impregnates the plastic cans after a few months and the metal cans rust...) If anyone has a link to biodegradable waterproof liners that don’t fall apart I would LOVE it! 

Where we are there is a 20c charge for plastic bags.  Dh never uses reusable and I forget often enough to keep us in bin liners but we’ve reduced consumption a bit at least.  My mil uses potato bags in hers.

the reusable bags sold here are some kind of plastic cloth and don’t seem to last that long before they fall apart either.

[Ethel Mertz]

I've been using the bags pads come in as bathroom trash can liners, as well as the plastic that toilet paper comes in. 

Our grocery store has a bulk section and we can bring our own jars to put items in.

[Mbelle]

We were at the local botanical gardens this past weekend and they sold quart size water cartons because they were environmentally friendly and then gave us plastic cups to pour into for drinking.  I was wondering why they just didn't make them in pint sizes and ready to drink stright out of the container.  It seemed silly.

[Laura in CA]

Don't get me started on "low-flush" toilets that have to be flushed several times instead of once ... 😁

or the mercury-containing compact fluorescent light bulbs that cast a cold glow, give one a headache, AND don't last any longer for us – but are a pain to recycle (we do, of course) and presumably need a lot of handling to recycle, as they are hazardous materials (and who knows how many people do not recycle them, as it isn't made as easy for the U.S. consumer as I have seen in Europe and Asia). Edit: I've banned CF in our house (we use old-fashioned bulbs) until LEDs are more widely available.

I'm all for electric cars and solar panels, very popular here in California, but of course batteries and solar panels are made with toxic chemicals. So they are not a 100% perfect solution.

but the ultimate (I may post this in the other thread) is an article I read in the Times of London this evening about a woman killed by a metal straw. The details are rather gory but apparently she fell onto it, and it was one that was fixed in her drinking glass. The metal straw was apparently a birthday present.

Edited July 9, 2019 by Laura in CA

[moonflower]

9 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

Yeah.  I know. And I feel the same way about the poor quality appliances we have here in the states that are "water savers" and "uses less electricity." Forget about the fact that these things die after 5 years when my old water hog is over 20 years old!

 

And I was thinking this morning and trying to find facts....My friend talks about how Almond Milk is more environmentally friendly because it doesn't come from cows and cows use lots of water and burp methane. But Almond groves in California are really draining the aquifers...so how does that work? I mean, I have a cow, I live in a fairly wet place, so the water my cow uses comes from the well and doesn't really stress the aquifer.  But I just don't know. 

I've thought the same as you.

 

I know nothing about almond milk, but the idea re: cows and water is probably that cows that are fed grain/corn are using the water that was used to grow the corn.  I doubt this applies to your cow of course but it does apply to say 95% (at least?) of dairy cows.

[SKL]

I think the problem is marketing / politicizing, both of which rarely lead to optimizing.

Am I the only person who remembers when all grocery bags were paper, and everyone started worrying about the trees?

[Guest]

13 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

We are having that a bit here with plastic shopping bags. They are no longer available here (paper bags are available for a fee per bag). People are purchasing trash can liners which are thicker online so more plastic is being used than if people judiciously reused plastic bags.

We are one of those families that used reusable shopping bags 90% of the time but still used 3-4 plastic bags a month to line bathroom trash cans.

(Just washing and sunning the cans doesn’t work as the smell impregnates the plastic cans after a few months and the metal cans rust...) If anyone has a link to biodegradable waterproof liners that don’t fall apart I would LOVE it! 

How do you feel about nylon reusable liners? You can buy the appropriate thing from green mountain diapers. Com. The nylon diaper pail liners work as a trash can liner. I have two I use for recycling “trash cans”. 

[Guest]

The thing that springs immediaely to mind for me is appliances. They are made to be so energy efficient and have to meet certain criteria in order to get the Energy Star cert, but they freaking break down in five years or less! We have lived in this house seventeen years now and just had to repair our third fridge. And we have had to replace: ovens, dishwasher and washing machine (twice). And this Friday we have to replace one of our two AC units; presumably we will soon have to replace the other as well, but we are kicking the can down the road as far as we can because it’s $$$$. 

 

[Pawz4me]

I doubt that the short lifespan of most appliances has much, if anything, to do with energy efficiency. I suspect it's all to do with greed.

[Farrar]

A few thoughts...

First, it's not on you as an individual to fix the systematic things that led to you being unable to fix the car in a reasonable fashion. I doubt the primary issue is the environmental regulations either - it's more likely planned obsolescence - they literally don't make cars or appliances in a way that's meant to be fixed. They expect them to be trashed. It's very expensive and difficult to fight that. Yes, regulations can add another layer to that, but the bigger issue is typically the manufacturers. That's really on them.

Second, there are costs that we're not really paying for these things - the degradation to our environment from the manufacture, from the waste disposal, etc. These are costs we keep putting off so to speak. So when we say that something isn't "good" for consumers, I think it's sort of up for interpretation as to what that means. Like, yeah, not good for our pocketbooks. But cheaper products are possibly leading to our literal extinction in a long term way. So in that sense...

Finally, you, individually, paying a lot more doesn't really fix it. The solutions are bigger than you. So while I totally think it's great that some people want to pay more for products that last longer, products that are more environmentally friendly in different ways, for doing things in ways that avoid products in the first place, etc. - I don't think those individual decisions are going to fix the problems in the end. I don't personally think there's any way other than massive changes mandated by governments. So if you really care, do what you can on a small scale, yes, but mostly vote greener.

[Farrar]

14 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

We are having that a bit here with plastic shopping bags. They are no longer available here (paper bags are available for a fee per bag). People are purchasing trash can liners which are thicker online so more plastic is being used than if people judiciously reused plastic bags.

We are one of those families that used reusable shopping bags 90% of the time but still used 3-4 plastic bags a month to line bathroom trash cans.

(Just washing and sunning the cans doesn’t work as the smell impregnates the plastic cans after a few months and the metal cans rust...) If anyone has a link to biodegradable waterproof liners that don’t fall apart I would LOVE it! 

I've now lived in a place with a bag tax for about a decade and I've never seen anything like this behavior. Most people switched to reusable bags or pay the fee. I have seen some creative bag things happening, but those were all centered around reuse. I just find this really bizarre. What's the gain from buying a thing of trash bags and remembering to take those instead of just taking your traditional reusable bags in the first place?

ETA: Oh, I think I misunderstood. You're saying people are buying the bigger trash bags for the tiny cans, not for shopping? That's reasonable... It's probably still reducing overall waste big time. You can find others online - similar to the material in doggie bags.

Edited July 9, 2019 by Farrar

[Katy]

Yes, it's irritating.

If you don't live in an area with a lack of water, using less water just concentrates chemicals and contaminates. 

Water-saving & energy saving functions DO impact the lifespan of machines, because those concentrates break down things faster.  BUT typically the problem is that everything is handled by a computer not a mechanical function and the computers, like almost any, are toast in 3-5 years.  Less if it involves a dud thermostat in an oven.

Compact fluorescent bulbs also emit UV light that is harmless to most people but can cause autoimmune flares in those predisposed to it.  I actually wonder if that is causal to the increase in fertility problems.  I'm surprised how many of my friends had trouble getting pregnant for years, but had no trouble shortly after they switched out their bulbs to LED's.

Banning plastic bags also directly causes more food poisoning deaths because who has one reusable bag for meats, and one for produce that you eat raw?  Who washes them on a sanitary cycle after every use?  How many people have their hot water heater set to a lower temperature to prevent burns and their washing machine doesn't have the ability to heat the water so it's impossible to get contaminates off the bags anyway, short of boiling them like diapers in the 1950's?

I'm not a fan of our more efficient car because it's smaller, less visible, and doesn't have the acceleration of a normal vehicle, especially not on a hill.  It's dangerous.

And frankly I resent the idea that we're all supposed to be minimalists who live in tiny houses and eat vegan and are zero waste.  Asceticism as a sacrifice in worship of Gaia. Yuck.

[73349]

30 minutes ago, Katy said:

Banning plastic bags also directly causes more food poisoning deaths because who has one reusable bag for meats, and one for produce that you eat raw?  Who washes them on a sanitary cycle after every use?  How many people have their hot water heater set to a lower temperature to prevent burns and their washing machine doesn't have the ability to heat the water so it's impossible to get contaminates off the bags anyway, short of boiling them like diapers in the 1950's?

There has never been a case of this that I'm aware of--and it would've been trumpeted from the rooftops by plastic bag makers! For one thing, E. coli is not going to live a week on a dry canvas bag. (For another, most meat packages don't leak--even less so if you bring a canning jar to the butcher counter and get that filled instead of getting a plastic/styrofoam package.) And washing things with soap and water and drying them gets rid of germs quite well--which is why cloth diaper users today don't boil them. However, one overlooked problem is that reusable bags need to be reused about 75-100 times before the embedded energy of manufacturing them is worthwhile vs. disposables--so winding up with twenty-six of them and leaving 23 stuffed in the closet is a really bad thing.

Re: almond milk vs. dairy, the methane emissions from cows are part of the equation as well. Methane is a terribly powerful greenhouse gas. Almonds grow on trees that take in carbon from the air.

Planned obsolescence is a disaster for everybody except the manufacturer. DH's cell phone has stopped working. It's only 5 years old and has been mostly unused. 😕

[Katy]

36 minutes ago, whitehawk said:

There has never been a case of this that I'm aware of--and it would've been trumpeted from the rooftops by plastic bag makers! For one thing, E. coli is not going to live a week on a dry canvas bag. (For another, most meat packages don't leak--even less so if you bring a canning jar to the butcher counter and get that filled instead of getting a plastic/styrofoam package.) And washing things with soap and water and drying them gets rid of germs quite well--which is why cloth diaper users today don't boil them. However, one overlooked problem is that reusable bags need to be reused about 75-100 times before the embedded energy of manufacturing them is worthwhile vs. disposables--so winding up with twenty-six of them and leaving 23 stuffed in the closet is a really bad thing.

Re: almond milk vs. dairy, the methane emissions from cows are part of the equation as well. Methane is a terribly powerful greenhouse gas. Almonds grow on trees that take in carbon from the air.

Planned obsolescence is a disaster for everybody except the manufacturer. DH's cell phone has stopped working. It's only 5 years old and has been mostly unused. 😕

 

 

I cannot link the studies directly because I've never been able to figure out how to copy a link to a pdf of an abstract, but there are many:

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=plastic+bag+ban+increases+food+poisoning

[Farrar]

I'm aware that reusable bags can carry bacteria and other germs. I've seen that posted often. I do wash mine, though possibly not as much as I need to. I've never seen anything about someone getting a serious case of investigated food poisoning from their bags. I mean, we have to balance things like food safety and waste. We are currently using at a completely unsustainable rate. It would be better for food safety if absolutely everything was disposable. It's safer to use stryofoam plates everyday. It's safer to use plastic forks and throw them away. It's definitely better for us all. At some point, we have to draw a line somehow. And develop ways of reusing that are safe. Like, to me, "reusable bags can be germy" doesn't mean "therefore we need to use plastic" any more than "an unwashed plate is germy" means "therefore we need to use plastic plates."

[Selkie]

18 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

And I was thinking this morning and trying to find facts....My friend talks about how Almond Milk is more environmentally friendly because it doesn't come from cows and cows use lots of water and burp methane. But Almond groves in California are really draining the aquifers...so how does that work? I mean, I have a cow, I live in a fairly wet place, so the water my cow uses comes from the well and doesn't really stress the aquifer.  But I just don't know. 

This reminds me of an article I read the other day. Will try to find the link later. Several climate scientists were asked about the changes they have made in their own lives to help the environment - and giving up animal products and giving up flying were the two things they talked about as having the greatest impact. 

[Lady Florida.]

9 hours ago, SKL said:

.

Am I the only person who remembers when all grocery bags were paper, and everyone started worrying about the trees?

Nope, you're not alone. I remember when all bags were paper. When plastic bags first became a thing they always asked "paper or plastic?" The "correct" answer was plastic, because it saved the trees. 

4 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I doubt that the short lifespan of most appliances has much, if anything, to do with energy efficiency. I suspect it's all to do with greed.

Planned obsolescence is real, and not as recent as we tend to think it is. It began during The Depression but really took off after WWII. 

https://daily.jstor.org/the-birth-of-planned-obsolescence/

https://www.activesustainability.com/sustainable-development/battle-against-planned-obsolescence/

3 hours ago, whitehawk said:

 1. For another, most meat packages don't leak-- 2. even less so if you bring a canning jar to the butcher counter and get that filled instead of getting a plastic/styrofoam package.)  3. However, one overlooked problem is that reusable bags need to be reused about 75-100 times before the embedded energy of manufacturing them is worthwhile vs. disposables--so winding up with twenty-six of them and leaving 23 stuffed in the closet is a really bad thing.

 

1. That irritates me when I bring my own bags and they try to put my meat in plastic bags. I always point out that it's not leaking so I don't need a plastic bag. Some do appear to leak even when I try to choose a package that isn't leaking. In those rare cases I'll accept a plastic bag. I always return my plastic bags for recycling and if necessary wash out the leaky meat bags before returning them.

2. I wish I had a butcher I could do that with. The chain grocery stores here don't allow it and I'd have to travel about an hour to find a "real" butcher.

3. I agree, and it does take time to make bringing your own bags a habit. I started collecting them about 15 years ago when a lot of stores were giving away free reusable bags in an effort to get people to use them. Some of them had Earth Day giveaways where the first X-number of customers got free bags. Little by little I built up a collection but for a long time I would often forget to bring them in to wherever I was shopping. I have a couple that fold up small enough to fit in my purse (and are light) but for the most part I just keep an even amount if both of our cars. It takes time but once you get used to it, it's just a normal thing to grab your bags before you go in any store (I don't just use mine for grocery shopping, but for all kinds of shopping). 

Edited July 9, 2019 by Lady Florida.

[Laura Corin]

I do think that switching to American almond milk is a concern, particularly as I would be adding the airmiles to the UK. I drink European oatmilk.

[Katy]

5 hours ago, Farrar said:

I'm aware that reusable bags can carry bacteria and other germs. I've seen that posted often. I do wash mine, though possibly not as much as I need to. I've never seen anything about someone getting a serious case of investigated food poisoning from their bags. I mean, we have to balance things like food safety and waste. We are currently using at a completely unsustainable rate. It would be better for food safety if absolutely everything was disposable. It's safer to use stryofoam plates everyday. It's safer to use plastic forks and throw them away. It's definitely better for us all. At some point, we have to draw a line somehow. And develop ways of reusing that are safe. Like, to me, "reusable bags can be germy" doesn't mean "therefore we need to use plastic" any more than "an unwashed plate is germy" means "therefore we need to use plastic plates."

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I wish single use plastic use would increase. There are plenty of biodegradable plastics these days, but we don't use them. It seems like a false dichotomy. Switching from refined plastics to biodegradable ones for packaging purposes would probably take 5-10 years, but would be better for everyone long term, and it would be a great way to transition away from federal corn subsidies that NOBODY wants while also providing a route to responsibly use all that starch from corn waste that we otherwise turn into a completely unsustainable form of ethanol.  Some ethanol is worth it, that from corn is not.

It's like the ridiculous paper vs plastic bag argument above.  No trees were saved.  The trees are farmed Southern Yellow Pine in the Southeast.  The trees would have been cut for construction lumber anyway.  The waste would have been turned into paper pulp anyway. So for the ridiculous argument of "saving trees" all of the USA switched from a domestic renewable resource products to imported, non-renewable, polluting products that take eons to biodegrade and cause cancer to the factory workers who produce them. People might have been encouraged to switch to "save a tree" and, at the time, stronger bags (bag quality has drastically declined since then) but the business motivation was to save 90% of the cost of paper bags by switching to plastic.

ETA:  We buy fractions of a cow from farmers we know and have them processed and frozen at a butcher and wrapped in paper rather than plastic, at least most of the time.  But I still think it's stupid to not wrap fresh meat and fish in small portions in plastic.  Maybe require compostable plastic rather than the traditional kind.

Edited July 9, 2019 by Katy

[shawthorne44]

I think that the list of effective environmental changes is a lot shorter than ones that backfired. 

And don't get me started on new dishwashers.    They are all about energy-efficiency and noise-level.   It is common now for them to have a sensor that stops the wash cycle if it stops detecting dirt.   Regardless of whether or not the dishes are clean.   We don't use many dishes and because of that &%$&^%$ sensor we do twice as many loads.   In fact, we are selling a house that we'd planned on renting.  Its dishwasher is probably 15 years old.  I am seriously considering swapping it for the new one we have.  

[73349]

Biodegradable packaging helps if people compost it and then spread the compost. It won't break down properly in a landfill, though, and in many cases is just a greenwashing claim.

[Ausmumof3]

10 hours ago, Quill said:

The thing that springs immediaely to mind for me is appliances. They are made to be so energy efficient and have to meet certain criteria in order to get the Energy Star cert, but they freaking break down in five years or less! We have lived in this house seventeen years now and just had to repair our third fridge. And we have had to replace: ovens, dishwasher and washing machine (twice). And this Friday we have to replace one of our two AC units; presumably we will soon have to replace the other as well, but we are kicking the can down the road as far as we can because it’s $$$$. 

 

Yes!

so true.::

[Ausmumof3]

9 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I doubt that the short lifespan of most appliances has much, if anything, to do with energy efficiency. I suspect it's all to do with greed.

Yes true.  But it still seems hypocritical that so much emphasis is put on changing consumer behaviour and none on holding manufacturers to any standard.

[Ausmumof3]

9 hours ago, Farrar said:

A few thoughts...

First, it's not on you as an individual to fix the systematic things that led to you being unable to fix the car in a reasonable fashion. I doubt the primary issue is the environmental regulations either - it's more likely planned obsolescence - they literally don't make cars or appliances in a way that's meant to be fixed. They expect them to be trashed. It's very expensive and difficult to fight that. Yes, regulations can add another layer to that, but the bigger issue is typically the manufacturers. That's really on them.

Second, there are costs that we're not really paying for these things - the degradation to our environment from the manufacture, from the waste disposal, etc. These are costs we keep putting off so to speak. So when we say that something isn't "good" for consumers, I think it's sort of up for interpretation as to what that means. Like, yeah, not good for our pocketbooks. But cheaper products are possibly leading to our literal extinction in a long term way. So in that sense...

Finally, you, individually, paying a lot more doesn't really fix it. The solutions are bigger than you. So while I totally think it's great that some people want to pay more for products that last longer, products that are more environmentally friendly in different ways, for doing things in ways that avoid products in the first place, etc. - I don't think those individual decisions are going to fix the problems in the end. I don't personally think there's any way other than massive changes mandated by governments. So if you really care, do what you can on a small scale, yes, but mostly vote greener.

In this case it really is related to design modifications rushed through to meet emissions standards but you’re right as a general rule it’s probably commercial greed.  Or just things being bandaided rather than really thought through.

[Ausmumof3]

8 hours ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Your first paragraph isn’t exactly correct. I do agree that I’ve seen no specific single case linked except the one mentioned below, but there have been multiple studies detailing the pathogens found in reusable grocery bags going back at least 5 years to my knowledge. But it’s not really a question in the literature that reusing ANY bag for food or anything else in all honestly, opens it up to pathogenic contamination. Much like women’s purses being disgusting in the same light. Whether or not it’s causal of actual illness in significant proportion can be argued, but the pathogens are clearly in the bags. 

One of but many journal articles-

https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/10/9/4060/htm

Here’s a direct quote from that paper- 

A relatively new cross-contamination vehicle in the U.S. that has the potential to pose a significant risk of bacterial cross contamination is reusable grocery bags. One in three consumers report using these bags for more than just groceries [92] —they double as gym bags, toy bags, and other uses. This is a concern given that 75% of consumers use these same bags for carrying raw meat and other foods [92]. Large numbers of bacteria (including fecal coliforms) were found in every reusable bag collected from consumers outside a grocery store, but none were found in new bags or traditional plastic bags [92]. Despite the effectiveness of removing pathogens by washing reusable grocery bags, only 3% of consumers reported regularly washing them [92]. Dirty reusable grocery bags could pose a foodborne illness risk—an outbreak of norovirus in a girls soccer team was traced to a contaminated reusable grocery bag [93].

 

I agree “could” is not “does”, but discounting it isn’t accurate either. 

Oh yeah!  I have a bad habit of putting my handbag on the kitchen bench.  The same one I take into public toilets.  It grosses me out every time I realise I’ve done it

[Ausmumof3]

8 hours ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Your first paragraph isn’t exactly correct. I do agree that I’ve seen no specific single case linked except the one mentioned below, but there have been multiple studies detailing the pathogens found in reusable grocery bags going back at least 5 years to my knowledge. But it’s not really a question in the literature that reusing ANY bag for food or anything else in all honestly, opens it up to pathogenic contamination. Much like women’s purses being disgusting in the same light. Whether or not it’s causal of actual illness in significant proportion can be argued, but the pathogens are clearly in the bags. 

One of but many journal articles-

https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/10/9/4060/htm

Here’s a direct quote from that paper- 

A relatively new cross-contamination vehicle in the U.S. that has the potential to pose a significant risk of bacterial cross contamination is reusable grocery bags. One in three consumers report using these bags for more than just groceries [92] —they double as gym bags, toy bags, and other uses. This is a concern given that 75% of consumers use these same bags for carrying raw meat and other foods [92]. Large numbers of bacteria (including fecal coliforms) were found in every reusable bag collected from consumers outside a grocery store, but none were found in new bags or traditional plastic bags [92]. Despite the effectiveness of removing pathogens by washing reusable grocery bags, only 3% of consumers reported regularly washing them [92]. Dirty reusable grocery bags could pose a foodborne illness risk—an outbreak of norovirus in a girls soccer team was traced to a contaminated reusable grocery bag [93].

 

I agree “could” is not “does”, but discounting it isn’t accurate either. 

The cooler bags here can’t be machine washed either and the reusable bags aren’t great through the machine.

[73349]

8 hours ago, Katy said:

I cannot link the studies directly because I've never been able to figure out how to copy a link to a pdf of an abstract, but there are many:

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=plastic+bag+ban+increases+food+poisoning

All the top results are referring to just two papers, one sponsored by plastic bag makers and the other out of a law school, not anybody in medicine. (The full text of the latter, which references the former, is here, in case anybody wants it.) I don't know much about stats, but a lot of the tables seem to restrict comparison to the quarter before and the quarter after the ban adoption; it seems like it would be hard to rule out the ordinary ups and downs (as opposed to studying the two years after vs. the 20 years before). I can't see how you'd get a realistic idea of the difference attributable to different grocery bagging (in a county where reusables were already popular) vs. other causes (such as the usual outbreaks attributable to farm- and restaurant-level sanitation). They also repeat the common error that germs will be killed by washing in hot water; that's not how doing laundry removes germs. There is no consideration of the public health impact of plastic bags, only on wildlife.

Yeah, I'll stick with my reusables, but thanks, Economics Dudes.

 

ETA: A search of the San Francisco Department of Health's website for shopping bags indicates that they are giving away reusable bags and water bottles themselves! I guess they're not worried about it.

Edited July 9, 2019 by whitehawk

[Farrar]

1 hour ago, Katy said:

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I wish single use plastic use would increase. There are plenty of biodegradable plastics these days, but we don't use them. It seems like a false dichotomy. Switching from refined plastics to biodegradable ones for packaging purposes would probably take 5-10 years, but would be better for everyone long term, and it would be a great way to transition away from federal corn subsidies that NOBODY wants while also providing a route to responsibly use all that starch from corn waste that we otherwise turn into a completely unsustainable form of ethanol.  Some ethanol is worth it, that from corn is not.

It's like the ridiculous paper vs plastic bag argument above.  No trees were saved.  The trees are farmed Southern Yellow Pine in the Southeast.  The trees would have been cut for construction lumber anyway.  The waste would have been turned into paper pulp anyway. So for the ridiculous argument of "saving trees" all of the USA switched from a domestic renewable resource products to imported, non-renewable, polluting products that take eons to biodegrade and cause cancer to the factory workers who produce them. People might have been encouraged to switch to "save a tree" and, at the time, stronger bags (bag quality has drastically declined since then) but the business motivation was to save 90% of the cost of paper bags by switching to plastic.

ETA:  We buy fractions of a cow from farmers we know and have them processed and frozen at a butcher and wrapped in paper rather than plastic, at least most of the time.  But I still think it's stupid to not wrap fresh meat and fish in small portions in plastic.  Maybe require compostable plastic rather than the traditional kind.

As pointed out above, the compostable stuff doesn't help much unless you actually compost it. This is part of the issue with recycling now too. Sure, recycling is good... but it takes more energy sometimes and increasingly no one even wants to recycle our stuff - it's dirty. Of course for plastics that we really need - such as for medical level stuff, for example - we should try to switch to biodegradable ones whenever we can. But the solutions are going to hurt sometimes. They're going to require things from us. And reduction (not stopping all plastics forever, but dramatically reducing them) is the only real sustainable way forward.

[Teaching3bears]

One example of something that should be stopped at the manufacturer's level: Why so much packaging on toys? Some toys have taken me over half an hour, several tools and bleeding skin to get out of the packaging. They are wrapped in solid plastic bubbles, surrounded by wires and cardboard (one reason I started buying toys at the thrift store). Surely there is a better way.

[Teaching3bears]

What did people do to transport food home long ago? They put it in a basket in their buggy? When the basket got overused it could just disintegrate because it was made from natural fibres.

Why don't we use baskets instead of reuseable plastic bags? When reuseable bags came out in the 1990s the bags were unbleached canvas. I washed them in the washer because they were easy to wash. I never wash the plastic ones. I always put meat in the thin plastic produce bags and put them separately in the trunk.

[Katy]

43 minutes ago, Farrar said:

As pointed out above, the compostable stuff doesn't help much unless you actually compost it. This is part of the issue with recycling now too. Sure, recycling is good... but it takes more energy sometimes and increasingly no one even wants to recycle our stuff - it's dirty. Of course for plastics that we really need - such as for medical level stuff, for example - we should try to switch to biodegradable ones whenever we can. But the solutions are going to hurt sometimes. They're going to require things from us. And reduction (not stopping all plastics forever, but dramatically reducing them) is the only real sustainable way forward.

 

It wouldn't stop the volume in the landfill, but it would stop what washes downstream from the landfill after a heavy storm from polluting the oceans.

[Katy]

17 minutes ago, Teaching3bears said:

One example of something that should be stopped at the manufacturer's level: Why so much packaging on toys? Some toys have taken me over half an hour, several tools and bleeding skin to get out of the packaging. They are wrapped in solid plastic bubbles, surrounded by wires and cardboard (one reason I started buying toys at the thrift store). Surely there is a better way.
 

 

This is because hard to dispose of packaging makes it harder to shoplift or claim a portion of the item wasn't included.

[aggie96]

This was an interesting article on this topic. Seems problems abound from the consumer level to domestic and international processing. While we recycle, we don’t clean everything diligently; thus, I think our recycling efforts are moot.  😞

We are trying hard to just reduce our use of recycle materials via grocery totes, no paper/plastic food if it can be helped, and larger containers of items instead of multiple smaller containers. Better than a poke in the eye <shrug> . I’m going to give stainless straws a try, but the ick factor is a major concern. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/29/climate/recycling-landfills-plastic-papers.html

My 20-something sister has lived in Bali for the last year, and the ocean/beach/trash problem there is shocking and heartbreaking. They just passed a ban on plastic bags and are dealing with pollution dues to burning the trash. Shocking and horrifying. You can see some pics and her reports by searching YouTube Tracing Thought. It’s on IG and Facebook, too. Her experience in Bali inspired me to use grocery totes now and rely on refillable water bottles instead of 12oz plastic bottles. 

ETA I have been using grocery totes for a year now. While I haven’t used them every week, I almost have. When I started I estimated that I used 15-20 plastic bags a week, thus about 1000/yr. I estimate that I’ve used maybe 100-200 this year. It’s got help at least a tiny bit. Right?

 

 

Edited July 10, 2019 by aggie96

[SKL]

This reminds me of something that always makes me wonder.  What about the dog poop pickup bags that everyone is supposed to use?  How is that sustainable?  Has anyone come up with a serious alternative other than leaving crap everywhere?

[aggie96]

🙂 shovel into coffee can to be dumped in hole at fence perimeter to make natural dog fence? 🙂 

i had 4 large dogs once upon a time. That would have been interesting to say the least. 🙂

[IvyInFlorida]

18 hours ago, moonflower said:

 

I know nothing about almond milk, but the idea re: cows and water is probably that cows that are fed grain/corn are using the water that was used to grow the corn.  I doubt this applies to your cow of course but it does apply to say 95% (at least?) of dairy cows.

 

I recently went to a dairy exhibit and learned that cows here in Florida mostly eat stuff that is basically agricultural waste products--pellets made from citrus pulp left over from juice making, corn silage, etc.

[LMD]

We are in the middle of building an off grid home in rural Aus. Some issues we've run into:

1. Conflicting rules, for example we're not supposed to cut down (most kinds of) trees on our property without a permit, but we're also not supposed to clear fallen trees and debris because habitat. That's the environmental department. The fire management department wants us to clear everything because leaf litter and scrub from oily eucalypts is a fire hazard.

2. The state epa changes it's rules and lists of approved products regularly and with no notice or explanation. I've had to scramble more than once.

3. The way that building permit approval algorithms work, it is much easier to pass the energy efficiency requirements with a ginormous mcmansion than a small home. Our is a very modest home, totally solar powered, vermiculture septic system, renewable local sourced wood for heating and cooking, all low voltage/energy efficient appliances/lighting etc. We barely passed as efficient enough.

4. In the same vein, no one wants to build a house like this because there's not enough profit margin. It's been an absolute bear getting trades people on board because it's not a standard cookie cutter building contract and/or it's not a million dollar project. We had to put our own solar system together because you can only buy massive full systems that companies put together with the main goal of meeting the requirements for government rebates...

So yeah, one size fits all easy solutions are a pita.

[prairiewindmomma]

3 hours ago, SKL said:

This reminds me of something that always makes me wonder.  What about the dog poop pickup bags that everyone is supposed to use?  How is that sustainable?  Has anyone come up with a serious alternative other than leaving crap everywhere?

Our local parks have compostable bags.

[Ausmumof3]

10 hours ago, LMD said:

We are in the middle of building an off grid home in rural Aus. Some issues we've run into:

1. Conflicting rules, for example we're not supposed to cut down (most kinds of) trees on our property without a permit, but we're also not supposed to clear fallen trees and debris because habitat. That's the environmental department. The fire management department wants us to clear everything because leaf litter and scrub from oily eucalypts is a fire hazard.

2. The state epa changes it's rules and lists of approved products regularly and with no notice or explanation. I've had to scramble more than once.

3. The way that building permit approval algorithms work, it is much easier to pass the energy efficiency requirements with a ginormous mcmansion than a small home. Our is a very modest home, totally solar powered, vermiculture septic system, renewable local sourced wood for heating and cooking, all low voltage/energy efficient appliances/lighting etc. We barely passed as efficient enough.

4. In the same vein, no one wants to build a house like this because there's not enough profit margin. It's been an absolute bear getting trades people on board because it's not a standard cookie cutter building contract and/or it's not a million dollar project. We had to put our own solar system together because you can only buy massive full systems that companies put together with the main goal of meeting the requirements for government rebates...

So yeah, one size fits all easy solutions are a pita.

Yeah don’t get me started on the fire prevention versus environmental protection thing.  I think after reading dark emu it seems to me like Australian land was always tended and maintained but somehow we have this idea that it should be left completely alone and it will become this idyllic garden of eden virgin bush.  Only the end result of that is more destructive fires that actually wipe out native species because they are too big/too hot.   Obviously there are problems with clearing all debris but there are definitely problems with leaving it too.

the rest sounds super frustrating too. Good on you though and hope it all works out eventually.  

[Ausmumof3]

13 hours ago, Teaching3bears said:

What did people do to transport food home long ago? They put it in a basket in their buggy? When the basket got overused it could just disintegrate because it was made from natural fibres.

Why don't we use baskets instead of reuseable plastic bags? When reuseable bags came out in the 1990s the bags were unbleached canvas. I washed them in the washer because they were easy to wash. I never wash the plastic ones. I always put meat in the thin plastic produce bags and put them separately in the trunk.

For one thing reusable bags collapse whereas baskets take up space in between shopping trips.  Not such a problem if you have a close local shop and do regular daily shopping in small batches but if I needed enough baskets for my weekly shop they’ve be a pain.

[LMD]

1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

Yeah don’t get me started on the fire prevention versus environmental protection thing.  I think after reading dark emu it seems to me like Australian land was always tended and maintained but somehow we have this idea that it should be left completely alone and it will become this idyllic garden of eden virgin bush.  Only the end result of that is more destructive fires that actually wipe out native species because they are too big/too hot.   Obviously there are problems with clearing all debris but there are definitely problems with leaving it too.

the rest sounds super frustrating too. Good on you though and hope it all works out eventually.  

My bold, 😄 true

Thank you, it is all working out really well, it has just taken an awful lot longer than we anticipated! 

[EmilyGF]

10 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Our local parks have compostable bags.

Compostable bags only work if people compost them, not if they throw them away. And "biodegradable" plastic bags come with a whole host of problems anyways.

I think that our problem stems (at least in large part) from the fact that we want to consume our way out of our consumption problem, whereas a lot of things could be dealt with by things like eating less meat or flying less. But that means less consumption and we don't do that as a society.

(I, for one, love love love my water saving dishwasher. Don't know what you all had before, but my old dishwasher didn't get the dishes clean. We could only put half as many dishes as normal in it because it was so bad. My water-saving Bosch is quiet and great and I can pack it full and still have it work well. Maybe try a different detergent?)

[fairfarmhand]

6 hours ago, EmilyGF said:

Compostable bags only work if people compost them, not if they throw them away. And "biodegradable" plastic bags come with a whole host of problems anyways.

I think that our problem stems (at least in large part) from the fact that we want to consume our way out of our consumption problem, whereas a lot of things could be dealt with by things like eating less meat or flying less. But that means less consumption and we don't do that as a society.

(I, for one, love love love my water saving dishwasher. Don't know what you all had before, but my old dishwasher didn't get the dishes clean. We could only put half as many dishes as normal in it because it was so bad. My water-saving Bosch is quiet and great and I can pack it full and still have it work well. Maybe try a different detergent?)

Mostly I was referring to my clothes washer. I’ve had water saver versions and returned them because our clothes stunk. 

But yes, my new Bosch is very good.

[Teaching3bears]

On 7/9/2019 at 7:59 PM, aggie96 said:

My 20-something sister has lived in Bali for the last year, and the ocean/beach/trash problem there is shocking and heartbreaking. They just passed a ban on plastic bags and are dealing with pollution dues to burning the trash. Shocking and horrifying. You can see some pics and her reports by searching YouTube Tracing Thought. It’s on IG and Facebook, too. Her experience in Bali inspired me to use grocery totes now and rely on refillable water bottles instead of 12oz plastic bottles.

 

Thank you for sharing this.  I watched the video and all that plastic was disgusting.  It made me feel like we should just ban it all completely.  I'm glad they are doing something about it and hope it is not too late.  In North America we are sheltered because somehow we don't end up seeing all the garbage we produce but I'm sure we produce more.  Our planet will be covered with plastic particles for hundreds of years and it will go into our bodies.

[EmilyGF]

5 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

Mostly I was referring to my clothes washer. I’ve had water saver versions and returned them because our clothes stunk. 

But yes, my new Bosch is very good.

Yes, I had this experience with my clothes washer, too, but I persevered because all the super picky Germans I knew swore BY front loaders and swore AT top loaders. (Some of them LITERALLY boiled their towels after washing them in top loaders because they said the top loaders didn't get them clean.)

What worked for me was to totally give up on the "Normal" setting, which was rather quick, and use the "Bright Whites" setting that takes about four times as long. It still uses less electricity, because it just isn't having to handle the weight of water a top loader does, and of course the amount of water is less, AND my clothes are clean at the end.  I think the washer companies thought Americans wouldn't accept a long cycle so they made up this short cycle that is TERRIBLE and makes people think the front loader is AWFUL. But it is the stupid cycle "Normal" that shouldn't exist.

A plus is that I've cut back on detergent by so much that I've, so far, saved $300 on detergent. I use about 25% as much detergent as before. Less water = less need for detergent to get the same concentration. And that's good for the environment and good for my budget. Also, since they are so much drier at then end because of the fast spin cycle, they don't need as much energy in the drier to get dry. Win - Win - Win.