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S/o straw thread environmental stuff that’s worse for the consumer


Ausmumof3
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2 hours ago, moonflower said:

 

I think that's a great idea and wonderful for the farmers that live there and the 5 other families their farm's food can support, but the numbers just don't work over the whole population.  Maybe people could have grass-fed meat once a year?  Or something, I'm not sure.  But certainly not at the levels people are eating animal products now, or even anything remotely close to it.  

You’re absolutely right. Those kinds of models would totally rely on people reducing their consumption of animal products. My point isn’t as much “I know how to save the world” as it is “there are other practical models that might help too.” I don’t think veganism is the cure all either. But for those who could purchase from a cottage farm type set up, it would help. Animals are marvelous at breaking down grasses to increase fertility of land and banning their use doesn’t seem practical to me.

ive wondered often how the us agricultural model would adjust were government subsidies to be eliminated. 

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2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I agree. I abhor factory farming, but realistically I don't see any way to feed everyone without it (not that everyone is adequately fed now, but y'all know what I mean). I doubt it could be done even if the average person drastically reduced their consumption of animal products.

Most of the people I’ve come in contact with who are rigidly vegan are stay at home moms I upper middle or upper class.

sometimes I wish they could remember that so many people are  barely making it right now. They’re more concerned about their kids going hungry than some cow some where and no, they don’t have time to chop veggies every day, cook from scratch and buying the cheapest everything. I don’t want to toss the weight of “you’re ruining the earth because your kids ate grilled cheese” at their feet too. 

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9 hours ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I am at the stage of life right now where I feel like it never, ever ends! There is always a load ready to go. I need to wash about 5 days a week (multiple loads a day) to stay on top of things! Not having to do that would be mind blowing right now, LOL. Well I could do it now, but I’d pay for it . 

I am not hoping to rush my kids out of the nest but one thing I will not miss when they’re all grown and gone is the constant laundry! I know my grandmother at one point had a wringer washer tub and sometimes when I’m folding basket 5 of the day I wonder how the heck she did it and still cooked every meal from scratch! I complain and I don’t even have to iron!! She had to iron everything when my mom and her sisters were kids.

They say the new technology is one of the things that gave women options to work and I think they’re right on that because Im definitely a spoiled 21st century girl at this point. How the heck women worked and took care of a whole house pre-1950/60 without all the washer and dryer technology blows my mind. I know it was done. I just don’t know how.   

People had nowhere near the number of clothing items then that we have today. It wasn’t practical for just that reason. With the advent of the washing machine, it became easier to own more clothes. Add in that mass production reduced the prices and voila you have 5 loads where she might have had 1/2-1.

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I was listening to an NPR show today that was discussing how to decrease the carbon footprint irt food. One of the topics discussed was lab (cell) grown meat. One of the speakers said she'd eaten a duck breast that had been lab grown and it didn't taste any different from real duck. I'm having a hard time wrapping my mind around cell grown meat from a lab. Blech!

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We're rigidly no-farmed-animal-products eaters (so vegan plus wild fish and wild venison); when we were very poor this just meant that we were basically vegans, with some fish on rare occasion.  It worked okay; we ate a lot of beans.  We were as healthy as we are now or healthier, because we just couldn't afford fancy expensive vegan convenience foods and wouldn't eat cheap factory-farmed-animal-product convenience foods, so we ate almost all whole foods.

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i don’t buy that veganism will save the world. Honestly, I think we need to get away from massive industrial farming altogether. No more monoculture. Small farms with several different crops. This means the animals will be “grass fed” and that’s ok. We have parts of our farm that are never going to be productive for crops. (Too steep and rugged) but my animals can graze those fields. Really I think if we wanted to and had to we could grow food for at least 5 other families on our acreage. I think one would need to duplicate that model by the thousands to really make a difference and it would NOT be cheap. Americans would never go for it. They don’t get it that what you pay for at the grocery store is not the cost of providing that food. The environmental cost is not included.  And farm subsidies keep the market from accurately reflecting the cost of many products.

 

Yes, you are right.  As a few have said, of course farming this way means a significant reduction in meat consumption compared to the average.  But that kind of eating is more efficient and sustainable than a pure vegan diet.  Especially if you consider that there is also a fair bit of labout that can come from farm animals that replaces fossil fuel labour.  Veganism is only more efficient than the way we eat now, it's not top of the heap by any means.

Industrial farming isn't a problem just because of animals, it's a problem because it's environmentally destructive, and non-sustainable, very fossil fuel intensive as well.  It also doesn't lend itself to local food security which is likely to become increasingly important.  I don't think leaving it behind will be a choice, it will be forced on us if we don't choose it ourselves. I don't think its as inefficient as many think, though it's difficult to compare as most measurements are not suited to looking at those kinds of mixed situations, they like to have a straight up bushel per acre kind of number.  What is the case though is that it is labour intensive. 

As for lab grown meat which someone mentioned, I don't think its the answer.  Ideologically I think its another way of separating people from the ecological basis of their food, which is what got us into this mess in the first place.  But I am doubtful of the savings.  Sure, you only grow the bits you want and there is no need to sustain a whole animal.  But it's not cost free, there is all the lab infrastructure and it creates a very centralised food system.  But you also have to figure that you don't get the benefits of the duck - the manure, the feathers, and also things like insect or slug control for crops.  I also worry about the extent to which reducing animals to bits of protein affects the way we think about them or ourselves.  It seems to me to feed right into the trashumanists thinking.

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23 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I don't think it would bother me. I don't even know how long my current machine takes to do a normal cycle. Maybe about an hour? It doesn't have a countdown timer on it, and I've never paid attention. I've always been puzzled by the people who freak out over machines that take longer than thirty minutes. To me laundry is one of the easiest of all household chores to keep up with--takes me five minutes to throw in a load and then I walk away and do other things until it's done. It's not like I have to sit in front of the machine and twiddle my thumbs while it's doing its thing. As far as I can see the worst issue with a long cycle time is that you have to plan a bit better. But it doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

I always think this when people complain about laundry! (I grant you, families who have, like, twenty kids or something probably do have a staggering amount of laundry.) I always think at least we don’t have to go down to the river and beat it on a rock! Or have to boil kettles of water, mix it wih lye, and then put the clothes through a wringer! As long as you have a decent machine, laundry is a super simple task to complete. 

That said,  I would not love a 2.5 hour cycle. That would be really long to me. My dishwasher “normal” cycle is that long, but I rarely wash dishes any time but evenings after dinner. At that point, I don’t much care how long it takes. 

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14 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

I agree. I abhor factory farming, but realistically I don't see any way to feed everyone without it (not that everyone is adequately fed now, but y'all know what I mean). I doubt it could be done even if the average person drastically reduced their consumption of animal products.

I think where I live somewhat of a change in what is consumed might work?  There are so many kangaroos, rabbits, camels etc culled and literally lay there rotting or feeding wild dogs.  If we ate all we killed it would somewhat reduce dependence on farmed beef.  Of course having the resources to assess meat quality and safety would be huge and most people don’t want to eat camel.

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3 minutes ago, Quill said:

I always think this when people complain about laundry! (I grant you, families who have, like, twenty kids or something probably do have a staggering amount of laundry.) I always think at least we don’t have to go down to the river and beat it on a rock! Or have to boil kettles of water, mix it wih lye, and then put the clothes through a wringer! As long as you have a decent machine, laundry is a super simple task to complete. 

That said,  I would not love a 2.5 hour cycle. That would be really long to me. My dishwasher “normal” cycle is that long, but I rarely wash dishes any time but evenings after dinner. At that point, I don’t much care how long it takes. 

I’d be one of them at times.

its not really hard it just that I have a 2.5 hour cycle machine and no dryer so the logistics sometimes get overwhelming.  

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1 hour ago, Ausmumof3 said:

This is what some people say happens. I don’t get it, though. (FWIW, plastic bags are not banned here, though there are incentives and punitive measures meant to curb their use.)

My reusable bags are all made from that laminated sort of material or nylon. I use them for ages! They keep on lasting unless something specific happens to them. (In one instance, I melted one by tossing it on the counter/stove, which was still hot from recently cooking.) My oldest reusable bag is a foil-coated thermal bag; it is probably around 18 years old. It was the first reusable bag I bought, and I bought it because it keeps ice cream cold for the drive home. It was probably about thirteen years ago that I bought my first sheaf of reusable bags and made it a point to use them for all my grocery shopping. (It was more recent - maybe five years ago - that I started using them for any shopping at all.)

I do somewhat wish my bags were cotton so I could wash them with my regular laundry. 

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23 minutes ago, Ausmumof3 said:

I’d be one of them at times.

its not really hard it just that I have a 2.5 hour cycle machine and no dryer so the logistics sometimes get overwhelming.  

Yeah no dryer is definitely harder. I did have a drying line at one time and that took more logistics. I do like the practicality of a clothes dryer.

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2 hours ago, Ausmumof3 said:


I live on a sorta island, and we have a plastic bag ban.  There are paper bags available, and those are composted when they're used up (we reuse our occasional ones to be shred bags).
I don't believe the article is telling the whole truth, mostly because they cite vague research and no link to an actual published, peer reviewed study.  What I've found is that most people won't accept a bag now for their 1-2 items, most carry reusable bags for bigger trips (we get a lot of vacationers here and even they will bring their own), and several of us have bags repurposed from other materials: favorite t-shirts, string, that sort of thing.  I haven't bought new bags in over a year, and only that one because it was a cooler bag.  I throw my produce bags in the wash each week, but it doesn't cost me a load of laundry to do them.  They go right in with everything else.  And my habits are not less "green" now.  Contrary to what the author thinks, I use my reusable bags to carry stuff, too.  We don't often use small bin liners and I don't have dogs, so those are out.

I don't know.  This article comes off a bit like if it would if the writer did an expose on cloth napkins or diva cups.  LOL  How dare we use something that lasts longer and is more sustainable?  I have bags I used 9 years ago, and they're still kicking.

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I have an ASKO front loading  washing machine. I use the 1 hour 20 minute cycle at 40 oC. there is a quicker cycle of 45 minutes but it is for a small load. I think my machine is a 6.5 kg size

 there are other temperatures it can be set at and even longer cycles for heavy duty washing.

 We have just replaced it in the last year. I had an ASKO before it as well. It lasted 18 years. during that time I had 5 children at home and used cloth nappies. I had no problem. I do a load a day and whites every 2 to 3 days.

 I line dry year round.

 The reason we went with ASKO was because of the amount of water it uses. very little. We collect and store our rain water  in water tanks as our ONLY source of water. 

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I have lots of reusable bags. But the ones I use for groceries are insulated bags our dentist gave away for advertising. I've accumulated four large ones and one smaller one. They have that heavy foil-like insulated lining, which makes them great for use during our hot, humid summers. I don't feel quite so frantic to get checked out and get home ASAP before anything melts or spoils. They're fairly rigid, which makes them easier to fill (and to fill efficiently) than floppy bags. And best of all it's easy to wipe the insulated foil down with a disinfectant when I feel the need. I love those bags so much. I can't imagine buying groceries without them.

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13 hours ago, scholastica said:

People had nowhere near the number of clothing items then that we have today. It wasn’t practical for just that reason. With the advent of the washing machine, it became easier to own more clothes. Add in that mass production reduced the prices and voila you have 5 loads where she might have had 1/2-1.


That really hit home for me when I toured an old house that had his and her closets.   It was a fancy house but not a mansion.   For example, it had a large amazing library.   Each 'closet' was about 4' deep and 2.5' wide.   It had this gizmo that you might see at a dry cleaners.   You could pull out the gizmo and the rod with hung clothes would come out.   So, this woman had a library and her clothing in regular rotation fit on a 4' long rod.   Of course, she'd have had servants and special occasion clothes would have been stored somewhere else.  

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On 7/11/2019 at 1:23 PM, fairfarmhand said:

Where do these people live? And they need to try that in the SOUTH. I guarantee you they won't make it very long without their clothes smelling like STANK.

 

There's no way that will ever happen here. I live in the SOUTH. Humidity, heat, and sweat for a large proportion of the year and it doesn't matter if you just sit in an office, if you leave air conditioning for more than 5 minutes, you will get moist, damp clothes. 

Not to mention that many many many of us use jeans to WORK. Yeah. Outside. With cow crap. And dirt. And more SWEAT. I had to take my laundry basket and set it outside our bedroom door the other day because I couldn't sleep. My dh's clothes stank that bad!

We can re-wear bras in the winter, but not doing it in the summer. Going out to the mailbox makes things awfully moist.

 

On 7/11/2019 at 1:26 PM, MEmama said:

People wash their jeans? Like regularly? 

Honestly I rarely wash my clothes. Not like never, but unless I've been hiking (then always because ticks) or I got really sweaty (workout clothes) then I wear almost everything repeatedly. I know I have things like dresses and sweaters I've never washed...they just don't need it. I'm not stinky and if I just wear it to work or around the house it can't get dirty. 

I don't own jeans. Now that my girls don't ride horses, only DH owns jeans. But most of us in this house can get stinky just baking in the kitchen. And we do a lot more than that here.

I'm always amazed when people talk about being able to rewear bras w/out washing them. I've never been able to do that - even in the winter. I guess I'm just stinky & sweaty overall. If I wear layers, I might be able to rewear the top layer (sweater/sweatshirt) a few times before it starts to require cleansing. Then again, maybe not. I usually end up wearing my food so the top layers need to be washed to get off ketchup or sauce.

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On 7/11/2019 at 9:12 PM, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Can you link said collapsable grocery boxes you use? I would like some for my SUV but the ones I found at Tuesday Morning made it a whole 6 months before they just became collapsed and lost the "ible" part. 

Ummm, I've been away from the boards for a minute.  😁 I use this kind.  https://smile.amazon.com/Earthwise-Reusable-Shopping-Collapsible-Reinforced/dp/B06Y1XFGGQ/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=earthwise+box+tote&qid=1563329732&s=gateway&sr=8-5 Mine are all red/green plaid because that was the cheapest when I bought them.  They don't 'seem' especially heavy duty, but they're a year old and seem to be holding up fine.  

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On 7/15/2019 at 8:38 AM, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I thought of this thread this morning as I went through a massive stack of junk mail. I wish more cities would pass ordinances against junk mail!!!  When I think of all of the paper, ink, machinery used to print it, not to mention what goes in to transporting it and delivering it....seems pretty crazy.  Some of it's even from Wildlife Preservation groups asking for $$ so they send you a bunch of mailing labels and notepads (what is the point of that anyway- we gave you a notepad you didn't ask for so send us some money?) in a huge stuffed envelope with a ridiculous amount of informational pages shoved in said envelope. Not to mention, how many of these "freebies" go into the trash because no one needs this many address labels in this day and age? Ironic that the biggest one today was from the World Wildlife Federation. asking us for money.....Between them and March of Dimes I'm set for life in unrequested address labels.  Anyway, this thread seemed a fitting place to complain.

Give us well made washers! Keep the junk mail! 🙂

I think the bolded is accurate. My MIL would send money if she received some sort of "gift" in the mail. She always had something to give her grandkids when they visited!

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8 hours ago, wilrunner said:

I think the bolded is accurate. My MIL would send money if she received some sort of "gift" in the mail. She always had something to give her grandkids when they visited!

 

I recently read the Pre-Suasion book and it talked about this.  It works because of the ingrained idea of reciprocity.   Someone does something for us, so we feel compelled to do something for them.  An example is that religious group that used to hand out 'gifts' of flowers then asked for a donation.  Robert Cialdini, said that he watched that group at work.  He watched one of them leave to replenish the flower supply by digging them out of trash.   Beggars do the same thing. 

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On 7/15/2019 at 9:38 AM, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I thought of this thread this morning as I went through a massive stack of junk mail. I wish more cities would pass ordinances against junk mail!!!  When I think of all of the paper, ink, machinery used to print it, not to mention what goes in to transporting it and delivering it....seems pretty crazy.  Some of it's even from Wildlife Preservation groups asking for $$ so they send you a bunch of mailing labels and notepads (what is the point of that anyway- we gave you a notepad you didn't ask for so send us some money?) in a huge stuffed envelope with a ridiculous amount of informational pages shoved in said envelope. Not to mention, how many of these "freebies" go into the trash because no one needs this many address labels in this day and age? Ironic that the biggest one today was from the World Wildlife Federation. asking us for money.....Between them and March of Dimes I'm set for life in unrequested address labels.  Anyway, this thread seemed a fitting place to complain.

Give us well made washers! Keep the junk mail! 🙂

Somehow you got on a mailing list because you gave to some high-marketing-expense charity at some point.

I have a housemate who gets those mailers all the time, but I never get them.  I also don't donate to those kinds of organizations.

I also get very few catalogs, because I rarely buy delivered products (i.e. where they get your address) from anyone other than Amazon.

I don't get many paper bills, investment reports, etc. because I opt for the "paperless" option online.

For these reasons, despite having kids and therefore a wider variety of economic transactions - and also being responsible for several household bills, unlike her - I probably receive about 5% of the paper mail that one of my housemates receives.  (The other housemate falls somewhere in between.)

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Don't get me started on those new-fangled light bulbs.  So far about a third of the ones I've bought have been duds. 

When they built the addition including my kids' bedrooms, they installed some kind of LED light where you don't change the light bulb because it is supposed to last for such a long time.  Only it didn't!  The first one died within months, and when I went to change the light bulb I discovered I couldn't.  Needed to replace the whole light fixture - this time with a regular one that uses freaking light bulbs!  We also replaced my other kid's light at the same time.  Missed replacing the laundry room light, which died recently.  So stupid.

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