S/o straw thread environmental stuff that’s worse for the consumer

[Laura Corin]

2 hours ago, EmilyGF said:

Yes, I had this experience with my clothes washer, too, but I persevered because all the super picky Germans I knew swore BY front loaders and swore AT top loaders. (Some of them LITERALLY boiled their towels after washing them in top loaders because they said the top loaders didn't get them clean.)

What worked for me was to totally give up on the "Normal" setting, which was rather quick, and use the "Bright Whites" setting that takes about four times as long. It still uses less electricity, because it just isn't having to handle the weight of water a top loader does, and of course the amount of water is less, AND my clothes are clean at the end.  I think the washer companies thought Americans wouldn't accept a long cycle so they made up this short cycle that is TERRIBLE and makes people think the front loader is AWFUL. But it is the stupid cycle "Normal" that shouldn't exist.

A plus is that I've cut back on detergent by so much that I've, so far, saved $300 on detergent. I use about 25% as much detergent as before. Less water = less need for detergent to get the same concentration. And that's good for the environment and good for my budget. Also, since they are so much drier at then end because of the fast spin cycle, they don't need as much energy in the drier to get dry. Win - Win - Win.

That's interesting. I've always had front loaders and haven't been able to understand why they have worked so badly for some US customers.

[Matryoshka]

30 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

That's interesting. I've always had front loaders and haven't been able to understand why they have worked so badly for some US customers.

Do American front loaders heat the water, or do they just do cold and hot from the tap (and warm to mix) like US top loaders?   If not, the much, much higher temp on European front-loaders (30, 60, and 90°C, as I recall ) could also have a lot to with the difference in performance. 

[EmilyGF]

19 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Do American front loaders heat the water, or do they just do cold and hot from the tap (and warm to mix) like US top loaders?   If not, the much, much higher temp on European front-loaders (30, 60, and 90°C, as I recall ) could also have a lot to with the difference in performance. 

Depends on the setting you choose.

[Laura Corin]

1 hour ago, Matryoshka said:

Do American front loaders heat the water, or do they just do cold and hot from the tap (and warm to mix) like US top loaders?   If not, the much, much higher temp on European front-loaders (30, 60, and 90°C, as I recall ) could also have a lot to with the difference in performance. 

I usually wash on cold though. The cotton programme takes over two hours.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Laura Corin

[Pawz4me]

5 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

That's interesting. I've always had front loaders and haven't been able to understand why they have worked so badly for some US customers.

My guess, or at least one of them, is that too many Americans use way too much detergent. Front loaders really need just a tiny bit. And if you're used to using a regular water hog top loader it's hard to wrap your mind around using such a tiny amount. Too much detergent hampers cleaning and causes all sorts of other problems (like build up of gunk in the machine). And unfortunately the detergent manufacturers don't do anything to discourage overuse--their directions are usually not very clear, and caps aren't well marked. If you don't do independent research, or at the very least read the machine instructions, it's really easy to use much more detergent than necessary and create all sorts of issues. Years ago I started using one of those two tablespoon shot glass measuring cups for detergent. I never use more than two tablespoons of detergent, even in the largest and dirtiest loads. I've never had a machine that didn't clean well.

But it' also very possible, maybe likely, that the machines over there are made better.

[Katy]

4 hours ago, Matryoshka said:

Do American front loaders heat the water, or do they just do cold and hot from the tap (and warm to mix) like US top loaders?   If not, the much, much higher temp on European front-loaders (30, 60, and 90°C, as I recall ) could also have a lot to with the difference in performance. 

 

As far as I can tell only the machines that have a sanitize function heat water themselves.  I don't know what percentage of sales that is, but the last time I looked in stores only two out of twenty machines had that as an option, one front loader with a tiny capacity and one top loader with a very large capacity.  They cost $300-500 more than the rest of the washers in the store that day.  If I wasn't constantly dealing with sick kids and babies in diapers I doubt I would have even been looking for it, I just would have chosen one with a large capacity.

[Laura Corin]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

My guess, or at least one of them, is that too many Americans use way too much detergent. Front loaders really need just a tiny bit. And if you're used to using a regular water hog top loader it's hard to wrap your mind around using such a tiny amount. Too much detergent hampers cleaning and causes all sorts of other problems (like build up of gunk in the machine). And unfortunately the detergent manufacturers don't do anything to discourage overuse--their directions are usually not very clear, and caps aren't well marked. If you don't do independent research, or at the very least read the machine instructions, it's really easy to use much more detergent than necessary and create all sorts of issues. Years ago I started using one of those two tablespoon shot glass measuring cups for detergent. I never use more than two tablespoons of detergent, even in the largest and dirtiest loads. I've never had a machine that didn't clean well.

But it' also very possible, maybe likely, that the machines over there are made better.

I use even less powder than recommended by the machine manufacturer. It works well.

[EmilyGF]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

My guess, or at least one of them, is that too many Americans use way too much detergent. Front loaders really need just a tiny bit. And if you're used to using a regular water hog top loader it's hard to wrap your mind around using such a tiny amount. Too much detergent hampers cleaning and causes all sorts of other problems (like build up of gunk in the machine). And unfortunately the detergent manufacturers don't do anything to discourage overuse--their directions are usually not very clear, and caps aren't well marked. If you don't do independent research, or at the very least read the machine instructions, it's really easy to use much more detergent than necessary and create all sorts of issues. Years ago I started using one of those two tablespoon shot glass measuring cups for detergent. I never use more than two tablespoons of detergent, even in the largest and dirtiest loads. I've never had a machine that didn't clean well.

But it' also very possible, maybe likely, that the machines over there are made better.

I had that problem with my first run with German washers when I lived abroad. Now I use kitchen measuring spoons to measure my detergent. But they definitely try to make you use way too much. (And some people think more = better.)

[MEmama]

1 hour ago, Pawz4me said:

My guess, or at least one of them, is that too many Americans use way too much detergent. Front loaders really need just a tiny bit. And if you're used to using a regular water hog top loader it's hard to wrap your mind around using such a tiny amount. Too much detergent hampers cleaning and causes all sorts of other problems (like build up of gunk in the machine). And unfortunately the detergent manufacturers don't do anything to discourage overuse--their directions are usually not very clear, and caps aren't well marked. If you don't do independent research, or at the very least read the machine instructions, it's really easy to use much more detergent than necessary and create all sorts of issues. Years ago I started using one of those two tablespoon shot glass measuring cups for detergent. I never use more than two tablespoons of detergent, even in the largest and dirtiest loads. I've never had a machine that didn't clean well.

But it' also very possible, maybe likely, that the machines over there are made better.

I agree. I use only a tiny bit of detergent and don't have the problems other people complain about. My MIL cannot wrap her head around the idea of using a tablespoon or so of detergent. Lol. (or hanging laundry to dry, but that's another story...)

I also cannot fathom the amount of money some people claim to spend on detergents and cleaners. A bottle of laundry detergent lasts me over a year (yes, I date my bottles), a bottle of dish soap lasts even longer, I buy Windex maybe once every 5 years...I still have supplies I bought when we lived in Canada over 8 years ago! Lol. 

[Matryoshka]

4 hours ago, Laura Corin said:

I usually wash on cold though. The cotton programme takes over two hours.

Hm. Do you mean the coldest setting your machine has to select, or does it just use cold water from your pipes? I could swear that the German machines  (really the only ones I'm familiar with) didn't have a setting lower than the 30°C, because I remember worrying about it, as I wash almost everything on cold here, and there was nothing colder than 30°C to choose. 30°C is probably closer to our 'warm' setting,  although it's not an exact science here, as 'warm' literally just mixes the unheated water from the tap with the water from the hot water heater, which is different by house depending on how it's set, but I think is never supposed to be hotter than 120°F, so people don't scald themselves. That's only about 49°C, so our hottest cycle still colder than the 'medium' setting on the European ones I've seen.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Matryoshka

[HomeAgain]

2 hours ago, Pawz4me said:

My guess, or at least one of them, is that too many Americans use way too much detergent. Front loaders really need just a tiny bit. And if you're used to using a regular water hog top loader it's hard to wrap your mind around using such a tiny amount. Too much detergent hampers cleaning and causes all sorts of other problems (like build up of gunk in the machine). And unfortunately the detergent manufacturers don't do anything to discourage overuse--their directions are usually not very clear, and caps aren't well marked. If you don't do independent research, or at the very least read the machine instructions, it's really easy to use much more detergent than necessary and create all sorts of issues. Years ago I started using one of those two tablespoon shot glass measuring cups for detergent. I never use more than two tablespoons of detergent, even in the largest and dirtiest loads. I've never had a machine that didn't clean well.

But it' also very possible, maybe likely, that the machines over there are made better.

I'm going to guess a couple of factors come into play.
Our European washers were about half the size of our American ones.  It's why our laundry baskets in our house are still small - filled to the top that was one load.
Water issues.  Our water in some areas of the states was so bad that without a proper amount of detergent the minerals in the water would just cling to the dirt and make the clothes worse than when they went in.

Americans still tend to use too much detergent and additives to perfume and coat the clothes when the detergents don't "work" because they've built up, but the above really doesn't help either.
Our detergent comes in a gallon jar with a pump.  One pump (1 Tablespoon) for small loads, 2 pumps for regular sized.  Dh and I considered getting the 5 gallon bucket and filling our own bottles, but decided the minimal savings was negligible over the 2.5 years it would take us to go through it.

Edited July 11, 2019 by HomeAgain

[Matryoshka]

Oops dp.

Edited July 11, 2019 by Matryoshka

[Laura Corin]

56 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Hm. Do you mean the coldest setting your machine has to select, or does it just use cold water from your pipes? I could swear that the German machines  (really the only ones I'm familiar with) didn't have a setting lower than the 30°C, because I remember worrying about it, as I wash almost everything on cold here, and there was nothing colder than 30°C to choose. 30°C is probably closer to our 'warm' setting,  although it's not an exact science here, as 'warm' literally just mixes the unheated water from the tap with the water from the hot water heater, which is different by house depending on how it's set, but I think is never supposed to be hotter than 120°F, so people don't scald themselves. That's only about 49°C, so our hottest cycle still colder than the 'medium' setting on the European ones I've seen.

It's cold from the tap, which is pretty chilly in Scotland. It's a Zanussi, which is an Italian brand.

[Matryoshka]

15 minutes ago, Laura Corin said:

It's cold from the tap, which is pretty chilly in Scotland. It's a Zanussi, which is an Italian brand.

Okay, so is 'cold from the tap' option the little picture at the bottom with the asterisk in it below the 30ºC? I don't have symbols or temps, it just says Hot, Warm, or Cold on my old top-loader, so I'm symbol challenged, lol.  I'm fairly sure that option didn't exist on the German machines I used (this is also probably 30 years ago I'm remembering from!)

Edited July 11, 2019 by Matryoshka

[J-rap]

On 7/10/2019 at 6:50 AM, Ausmumof3 said:

For one thing reusable bags collapse whereas baskets take up space in between shopping trips.  Not such a problem if you have a close local shop and do regular daily shopping in small batches but if I needed enough baskets for my weekly shop they’ve be a pain.

I agree.  I love the idea of only using reusable bags (or baskets!), and hate what plastic bags are doing to the environment and animals.  But we've become such a different society today.  It used to be that everyone shopped at the corner market, and even then only got what they needed for a day or two.  There weren't so many options of food either, just the basics.  My dad grew up with an icebox, and they weren't even able to store cold things more than a couple days in the summer.  Most of us don't live like that anymore (although I've seen this still in other countries I've visited), but that type of environment is definitely more conducive to using a small reusable bag and not so much packaging and plastic.  

Not only do we not shop like that much anymore, but we order so much online (of course I do too) so then we have even more packaging and styrofoam etc.   I guess that all veers more into the topic of how can we be more environmentally conscious in this day and age in a way that doesn't feel complicated?  I'd love more ideas on that.

[shawthorne44]

Last night I thought of a specific one that really annoys me.   Paper Recycling.    You are probably saying to yourself, what can she have against the poor, little innocent idea of paper recycling? 

The problem is that landfills are basically compost piles that don't get turned  (and therefore take longer).    If you have ever composted you know what happens if the compost has not enough roughage.   It turns into this icky liquidy soup that will take forever to decompose.  My former large suburb discovered this.    They had a really good recycling program.    They also took the yard waste/tree branches and ground them up into mulch that any resident could get for free.   So, the landfill was getting extremely little roughage, and when they went to turn the landfill and instead of being done it was a soupy/slidy mess.   So, then instead of giving away the mulch they added it to the landfill.   Despite the fact that recycled paper had negative value.   Meaning that they had to PAY someone to take the recycled paper.   So, we sacrifice something that has a genuine, immediate use, mulch, for something with negative value.  

Then you add a study that showed that people used a lot more paper when they know it will be recycled.  They told me they were testing scissors and asked them to cut out various shapes.  When there was a recycling bucket clearly displayed people cut a LOT bigger shapes and used a lot more paper.  . 
 

[Laura Corin]

35 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

Okay, so is 'cold from the tap' option the little picture at the bottom with the asterisk in it below the 30ºC? I don't have symbols or temps, it just says Hot, Warm, or Cold on my old top-loader, so I'm symbol challenged, lol.  I'm fairly sure that option didn't exist on the German machines I used (this is also probably 30 years ago I'm remembering from!)

Yes, that's right.

[Skippy]

The public is so ignorant and gullible that it is very easy for them to be deceived about environmental issues. For instance, many young people think electric cars are totally clean because they think they don't run on fossil fuels and have zero emissions. Some electric car manufacturers even advertise that their vehicles have zero emissions.That may be true in some countries and areas, but where I live, electricity predominantly comes from coal power plants. People don't see the emissions coming out of the car, and they don't have the critical thinking skills to realize that many of these electric cars are actually running on fossil fuels, and the emissions are spewing out of the power plant. And in much of the U.S., coal-powered energy is the biggest contributor of greenhouse gases. (Don't misinterpret this post, I am in favor of cleaner and renewable forms of energy. My previous job was engineering systems for cleaner emissions at coal-powered plants.) This is a pretty good article on the subject: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/electric-cars-are-not-necessarily-clean/

[Pawz4me]

My washing machine, a one year old HE top loading Maytag, has these water temperature options:

Tap cold

Cold

Cool

Warm

Hot

Tap cold here right now would be (to me) almost lukewarm. In the winter it would definitely be downright chilly.

[Laura Corin]

50 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I think part of the front loader issue in the States has been mold. The class action lawsuits already took out one manufacturer and looks like more could follow. I’m not sure why ours mold and ones in Europe and elsewhere don’t- at least the ones here made in the last 10-15 years is when it seemed to start.  If you Google Frontload washers and lawsuit you’ll be able to read up on it for days. What’s ironic is they still sell them and it doesn’t seem like they actually fixed or changed anything..... 

I just checked my washer and it has no mould.  According to this article, fabric softeners and some detergents contain animal fats, so if you put in too much, it will accumulate and grow mouldy, then attract bacteria:

https://lakeappliancerepair.com/blog/what-happens-when-you-use-too-much-soap-in-your-washing-machine/

 

Complaint #2: “My washing machine has a foul odor and/or causes a pungent odor in my clothing”

The nasty odor coming from your washing machine is very likely the result of using too much liquid fabric softener and soap over an extended period of time. Some laundry detergents and nearly all fabric softeners contain a small amount of animal fat. When you use too much of these products, the fat will congeal and gum up on the lower part of the machine under the tub. In most cases, this area of the machine is not accessible to consumers, so it is very difficult to clean. Using too much soap over a period of 6 months to 1 year will cause this goo to grow.

As the congealed soap scum forms, mold, dirt, and bacteria stick to the goo, which in turn creates a very nasty odor.

[Matryoshka]

3 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I am scratching my head over the difference between tap cold, cold and cool??.🧐

What is the difference? And how does the machine change it? Just curious. I know half the time when I select "Cold" On my SQ I'm actually getting warm for the first 1/2 because it's a 1000 degrees outside and it takes forever to get cold water! 

LOL, I was thinking the same thing.  I think all US machines, other than the newer front-loaders with the 'sanitary' cycle, just mix from the hot and cold taps in varying proportions and it's guesswork how cold or warm or hot the water actually ends up being.  I tried to explain that to the Germans I lived with and they couldn't wrap their heads around it - how could we wash our clothes in some indeterminate temp that depends only on how warm or cold the water is in the pipes depending on the weather, and on the other end, how high various people set their hot water heaters?  It's going to be different from season to season and house to house. Where's the precision?  😂  There, for all the cycles the machine heated the water to a specific temperature (or maybe didn't have to much if it was only 30ºC - but it was still measured...).  I'm almost certain there was no 'from the tap' option then, as I was worried my cheapo US clothes would shrink or run on their hotter temps, and that's why we had these weird conversations...

[SKL]

Well I am glad someone mentioned stinky front loader washers.  Here I thought I had bought the only stupidly designed washer.  I am certain this is something they could fix in the design process!  So annoying, and I'm sure some people aren't able to keep it clean even if they try.  And I was not warned before buying.  Gruff gruff!!

[Laura Corin]

21 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

LOL, I was thinking the same thing.  I think all US machines, other than the newer front-loaders with the 'sanitary' cycle, just mix from the hot and cold taps in varying proportions and it's guesswork how cold or warm or hot the water actually ends up being.  

I remember hearing about a US expat coming to London on a generous moving allowance who insisted on bringing their top-loading washing machine over (despite then needing a transformer for the voltage difference) only to then find that the flat was not plumbed with hot water in the utility corner.  The landlord was unwilling to have holes tunnelled through the walls to pipe hot water to the washing machine, so it was cold water wash from then on.

[SKL]

Yeah, we don't have "tap cold" either.  I never really thought about the hot in my new clothes washing machine - maybe it heats it, maybe not.  (Dishwashers do obviously.)  Generally we wash everything in the same (warm) temperature unless it needs hand washing.  The exception is school whites, which would need hotter water I guess, but then again, I'm not sure it makes a ton of difference.

Edited July 11, 2019 by SKL

[Laura Corin]

3 minutes ago, SKL said:

Well I am glad someone mentioned stinky front loader washers.  Here I thought I had bought the only stupidly designed washer.  I am certain this is something they could fix in the design process!  So annoying, and I'm sure some people aren't able to keep it clean even if they try.  And I was not warned before buying.  Gruff gruff!!

If you are using more than a tablespoon of powder, try cleaning the machine then minimising the powder and conditioner.

[shawthorne44]

2 minutes ago, SKL said:

Well I am glad someone mentioned stinky front loader washers.  Here I thought I had bought the only stupidly designed washer.  I am certain this is something they could fix in the design process!  So annoying, and I'm sure some people aren't able to keep it clean even if they try.  And I was not warned before buying.  Gruff gruff!!

You can buy stuff to clean out the inside of the front-loader.    It is pretty harsh.    Once you have it clean, occasionally run a cycle with vinegar in the soap dispenser.  Some loads benefit from a vinegar rinse, so you get double benefit. 

[Pawz4me]

1 hour ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

I am scratching my head over the difference between tap cold, cold and cool??.🧐

What is the difference? And how does the machine change it? Just curious. I know half the time when I select "Cold" On my SQ I'm actually getting warm for the first 1/2 because it's a 1000 degrees outside and it takes forever to get cold water! 

 

1 hour ago, Matryoshka said:

LOL, I was thinking the same thing.  I think all US machines, other than the newer front-loaders with the 'sanitary' cycle, just mix from the hot and cold taps in varying proportions and it's guesswork how cold or warm or hot the water actually ends up being.  I tried to explain that to the Germans I lived with and they couldn't wrap their heads around it - how could we wash our clothes in some indeterminate temp that depends only on how warm or cold the water is in the pipes depending on the weather, and on the other end, how high various people set their hot water heaters?  It's going to be different from season to season and house to house. Where's the precision?  😂  There, for all the cycles the machine heated the water to a specific temperature (or maybe didn't have to much if it was only 30ºC - but it was still measured...).  I'm almost certain there was no 'from the tap' option then, as I was worried my cheapo US clothes would shrink or run on their hotter temps, and that's why we had these weird conversations...

Okay, I took one for the team and invested the time to find my washer's manual. This is what it says about the different water temperature settings:

Tap Cold: This is the temperature from your faucet. 

Cold: Warm water may be added to assist in soil removal and to help dissolve detergents.

Cool: Warm water is added to assist in soil removal and to help dissolve detergents. Cool is slightly warmer than cold.

Warm: Some cold water will be added, so this will be cooler than what your previous washer provided.

Hot: Some cold water is added to save energy. This will be cooler than your hot water setting.

 

And that's all decidedly unhelpful, really. How much better would it be if there was a heating element and we knew exact water temperatures? But there's that energy efficiency thing again. 

[shawthorne44]

54 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Here's the article- it says they edited the original "to clarify details". 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-48908413

But not washing jeans EVER is super gross imo. And I get treating high end fabrics well, but just brushing off dirt isn't going to remove sweat or odors. Count me as one chick not on board with that movement. Blech. 

 

Count me out too.   I tend toward non-observant and I have no sense of smell.  The results would be cartoon-ish bad if I stopped washing everything after wearing it.  

[moonflower]

I have those same temp settings on my cheapest-available-at-Home-Depot top-loader; I wonder if they're mixing cold with my hot for the Hot setting too!  Ooh, that is irritating.  I rarely use Hot, mostly tap cold, but when I do want to wash something on Hot it's not because I want it slightly cooler than Hot, kwim?  

 

[Tree Frog]

1 hour ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Here's the article- it says they edited the original "to clarify details". 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-48908413

But not washing jeans EVER is super gross imo. And I get treating high end fabrics well, but just brushing off dirt isn't going to remove sweat or odors. Count me as one chick not on board with that movement. Blech. 

We had an exchange student this past year who brought his own small pillow from home. It didn't have a pillow case on it. He was also a swimmer and played water polo 3-4 times/week. I asked him several times if he wanted to wash his pillow or swimming towels. He always said no and never washed them the 10 months he was here. I think he also washed his clothes maybe 4 or 5 times total. I understood the towels, since they always dried out between uses and he was always clean when he dried off, but the pillow looked dirty both when he arrived and when he left!

I wish I could wear my clothes more than once without having a left over odor. I wonder sometimes if Americans are too focused on always being clean and never stinking. I think the dirt (and associated stinking) are sometimes good for our health.

[fairfarmhand]

1 hour ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Here's the article- it says they edited the original "to clarify details". 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-48908413

But not washing jeans EVER is super gross imo. And I get treating high end fabrics well, but just brushing off dirt isn't going to remove sweat or odors. Count me as one chick not on board with that movement. Blech. 

Where do these people live? And they need to try that in the SOUTH. I guarantee you they won't make it very long without their clothes smelling like STANK.

 

There's no way that will ever happen here. I live in the SOUTH. Humidity, heat, and sweat for a large proportion of the year and it doesn't matter if you just sit in an office, if you leave air conditioning for more than 5 minutes, you will get moist, damp clothes. 

Not to mention that many many many of us use jeans to WORK. Yeah. Outside. With cow crap. And dirt. And more SWEAT. I had to take my laundry basket and set it outside our bedroom door the other day because I couldn't sleep. My dh's clothes stank that bad!

We can re-wear bras in the winter, but not doing it in the summer. Going out to the mailbox makes things awfully moist.

[MEmama]

1 hour ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Here's the article- it says they edited the original "to clarify details". 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-48908413

But not washing jeans EVER is super gross imo. And I get treating high end fabrics well, but just brushing off dirt isn't going to remove sweat or odors. Count me as one chick not on board with that movement. Blech. 

People wash their jeans? Like regularly? 

Honestly I rarely wash my clothes. Not like never, but unless I've been hiking (then always because ticks) or I got really sweaty (workout clothes) then I wear almost everything repeatedly. I know I have things like dresses and sweaters I've never washed...they just don't need it. I'm not stinky and if I just wear it to work or around the house it can't get dirty. 

DS washes everything, every time. I'd mention considering washing less frequently except he's a teenager, so it's probably for the best. Lol

[mellifera33]

1 hour ago, wilrunner said:

We had an exchange student this past year who brought his own small pillow from home. It didn't have a pillow case on it. He was also a swimmer and played water polo 3-4 times/week. I asked him several times if he wanted to wash his pillow or swimming towels. He always said no and never washed them the 10 months he was here. I think he also washed his clothes maybe 4 or 5 times total. I understood the towels, since they always dried out between uses and he was always clean when he dried off, but the pillow looked dirty both when he arrived and when he left!

 

 

Reminded me of this.

[Ausmumof3]

6 hours ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

Here's the article- it says they edited the original "to clarify details". 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-48908413

But not washing jeans EVER is super gross imo. And I get treating high end fabrics well, but just brushing off dirt isn't going to remove sweat or odors. Count me as one chick not on board with that movement. Blech. 

Lol I’m with you!

i remember some fashion dude doing an interview and stating that jeans should never be washed so they can mould to your body and develop character.

I’m like - bud - you have clearly never cleaned out a chicken coop!

besides those skinny jeans have to be washed to fit or they just keep stretching out and end up falling off.

[Bluegoat]

A lot of these things drive me crazy.  Ultimately they aren't even solutions in many cases they are marketing ploys, which make things worse.

I suspect though that the daily shopping issue might take care of itself.  The kind of transportation we have now is not sustainable, even with electric cars powered by renewables.  People are going to need to walk and bike and bus far more often and it will necessitate a change in shopping habits.  I'd guess it will require people to grow a lot more food close to home as well. Towns and cities and subdivisions are just going to have to adapt.

Probably the one that drives me the most crazy is the claim that veganism is the answer.  Probably because it doesn't even have the obvious answer that it is a greed driven claim.  It would be just as easy to say, significantly reduce your animal product consumption based on your local ecology.  The almond milk issue is a good example - I'm supposed to do what amounts to shipping water out of California, an area prone to drought, I am essentially contributing to draining their aquifers and killing their rivers.  Then shipping the stuff 4000 km.  When I live in a place that is ideal for dairy cows, where there is plenty of water for them to drink and to grow what is fed to them apart from the grass, which the rain would fall on anyway.  (And which doesn't disappear, after all, they pee it out again, or I do after I drink the milk.)

We're all going to have to get used to much simpler food I suspect, much more like what our ancestors ate, and not nearly the variety at a fingertip.

I think the only way to cut down on the waste from products is to make companies responsible for reclaiming them and making use of them when they are finished being used.  Then there will be an incentive to make them truly reusable and based on recoverable components.

 

[Bluegoat]

I don't get the jeans thing either.  The crotch of jeans get sniffy if you don't wash them, even in Canada in the winter. I am a big believer in only washing when required, but never is odd.

[KungFuPanda]

I'd like people to believe I use reusable bags because it's better for the environment, but the real reason is that I'm lazy and want to make fewer trips from the car.  Also, I'm cheap.  I shop at Aldi's a lot AND I refuse to pay for their bags.  It was actually someone on this forum who told me about the collapsible grocery boxes.  I love them and cashiers love them too. 

[SereneHome]

On 7/9/2019 at 6:39 AM, Quill said:

The thing that springs immediaely to mind for me is appliances. They are made to be so energy efficient and have to meet certain criteria in order to get the Energy Star cert, but they freaking break down in five years or less! We have lived in this house seventeen years now and just had to repair our third fridge. And we have had to replace: ovens, dishwasher and washing machine (twice). And this Friday we have to replace one of our two AC units; presumably we will soon have to replace the other as well, but we are kicking the can down the road as far as we can because it’s $$$$. 

 

We are on our 3rd fridge in the last 9 years.  Best Buy doesn't give out 5 yr fridge warranties anymore, just 3 yrs - bc evidently they break down after about 4 yrs

[Laura in CA]

I'm learning a lot in this thread about front-loaders. It's especially interesting about making shorter cycles for American consumers. We always get a kick out of the super-long cycles in Europe – here are photos from the washing machine in our holiday flat in the UK last December we took to show folks back home. Who in the U.S. would accept a 2.5-hour cycle? You do have to plan ahead! ... we're used to popping stuff into the washer and expecting it to be done in, well, under an hour.

When we lived in Europe the "Kochwäsche" cycles (95º C 😮 ) impressed me – pretty much steaming-hot water for cotton sheets and cloth diapers/nappies. Also the 4-hour cycles ... 😮 

Oh, and Laura C mentioned a U.S. washing machine being brought to England. We saw a U.S. washing machine at a YWAM on the Continent. When it was installed the local handymen laughed and laughed at the hot-water line going in to the machine. Check out the precise temperatures in my lower photo – can't get that when you pretty much randomly mix whatever comes out of the hot and cold taps 🙂 ! Now that we're back in the States I do wonder, as a PP mentioned, how cold my "cold" setting will be (which is what I mostly use) when it's 100ºF outside ...

 

Edited July 12, 2019 by Laura in CA

[aggie96]

These are the bags I use. LOVE them! I also use insulated bags from same company. They collapse flat. They fit perfectly in HEB and Kroger carts. When I have a big list, I use the insulated as I go through the store before checking out. They come in very handy for other tote needs too. I have 3 regular ones and 2 insulated. They are enough for a family of 5 weekly trip. 

 

 

[Laura Corin]

5 hours ago, Laura in CA said:

 Who in the U.S. would accept a 2.5-hour cycle? You do have to plan ahead! ... we're used to popping stuff into the washer and expecting it to be done in, well, under an hour.

I tend to come home from work, change out of my office clothes and look to see if there's enough of one kind of clothes in the laundry basket for a load.  Then I put it on before thinking about supper.  After supper, take clothes out of the washer and (if needed) throw in the drier.  It's dry by bedtime.  It's all a matter of habit.

[El...]

Our German washer also has only one hose in, cold tap water. I like choosing the washing temperature! It allows 20 degrees Celsius at the lowest setting, I think.  It takes forever, but we're ok with it

[Pawz4me]

8 hours ago, Laura in CA said:

Who in the U.S. would accept a 2.5-hour cycle?

I don't think it would bother me. I don't even know how long my current machine takes to do a normal cycle. Maybe about an hour? It doesn't have a countdown timer on it, and I've never paid attention. I've always been puzzled by the people who freak out over machines that take longer than thirty minutes. To me laundry is one of the easiest of all household chores to keep up with--takes me five minutes to throw in a load and then I walk away and do other things until it's done. It's not like I have to sit in front of the machine and twiddle my thumbs while it's doing its thing. As far as I can see the worst issue with a long cycle time is that you have to plan a bit better. But it doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

[Farrar]

My high efficiency dishwasher takes nearly 2.5 hours.

When I lived abroad, the washer also wrung out the clothes so they were dramatically less wet than at the end of the cycle in American washers. I had to hang things to dry there, but even if you used a dryer, that style of washer would also make the dryer time dramatically less.

[fairfarmhand]

13 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

A lot of these things drive me crazy.  Ultimately they aren't even solutions in many cases they are marketing ploys, which make things worse.

I suspect though that the daily shopping issue might take care of itself.  The kind of transportation we have now is not sustainable, even with electric cars powered by renewables.  People are going to need to walk and bike and bus far more often and it will necessitate a change in shopping habits.  I'd guess it will require people to grow a lot more food close to home as well. Towns and cities and subdivisions are just going to have to adapt.

Probably the one that drives me the most crazy is the claim that veganism is the answer.  Probably because it doesn't even have the obvious answer that it is a greed driven claim.  It would be just as easy to say, significantly reduce your animal product consumption based on your local ecology.  The almond milk issue is a good example - I'm supposed to do what amounts to shipping water out of California, an area prone to drought, I am essentially contributing to draining their aquifers and killing their rivers.  Then shipping the stuff 4000 km.  When I live in a place that is ideal for dairy cows, where there is plenty of water for them to drink and to grow what is fed to them apart from the grass, which the rain would fall on anyway.  (And which doesn't disappear, after all, they pee it out again, or I do after I drink the milk.)

We're all going to have to get used to much simpler food I suspect, much more like what our ancestors ate, and not nearly the variety at a fingertip.

I think the only way to cut down on the waste from products is to make companies responsible for reclaiming them and making use of them when they are finished being used.  Then there will be an incentive to make them truly reusable and based on recoverable components.

 

Jumping off from this:

i don’t buy that veganism will save the world. Honestly, I think we need to get away from massive industrial farming altogether. No more monoculture. Small farms with several different crops. This means the animals will be “grass fed” and that’s ok. We have parts of our farm that are never going to be productive for crops. (Too steep and rugged) but my animals can graze those fields. Really I think if we wanted to and had to we could grow food for at least 5 other families on our acreage. I think one would need to duplicate that model by the thousands to really make a difference and it would NOT be cheap. Americans would never go for it. They don’t get it that what you pay for at the grocery store is not the cost of providing that food. The environmental cost is not included.  And farm subsidies keep the market from accurately reflecting the cost of many products.

[SKL]

I do think we wash more than we need to.  Jeans - I will hang them up, inside-out if it's hot/sweaty out, so usually I get a number of uses.  But I don't usually wear them all day - I sit in the house in jammies / shorts and pull on my jeans to go out.  (Also I am always wearing a cloth pad thanks to peri-menopause, so that helps.)  Bedding - no specific schedule; I wash when I feel like they need it, which is less than monthly.  However, certain items I do wash after every use.  I do not like smells - human or chemical - so one day is the max for certain garments.

[Pawz4me]

20 minutes ago, Æthelthryth the Texan said:

A 2.5 hour cycle would be really hard with a larger family is my main thought. For 2 or 3 people, sure, but you get 5 or 6+ and that could really jam things up unless it’s a giant capacity. 

Our not giant front loader was a 1:40 minute cycle and I felt like all I did was laundry 24/7 when the kids were young. I hated it. My SQ is super fast. If I had two dryers  I could get all my laundry done in a day! That would be epic. Seems like it would be more energy efficient too from an electricity stand point. It’s not like we have a water shortage out here. If I’m running my washer and dryer  one or two days a week versus 7 it seems like the electricity savings would pay off on that end. 

I don't think how many days a week you do laundry has anything to do with it. How many loads you do -- yes. The only savings I could see, and I think it would be tiny, would be if you're consistently putting loads in a still warm dryer so it doesn't have to warm up for each load. So two back to back loads would probably be a tiny more energy efficient than one load on each of two days, since you'd avoid the dryer having to warm up twice. But again--I think the energy savings would be incredibly tiny.

But this really highlights how people handle laundry differently. I would hate having to do all my laundry on one day. Just thinking about it gives me the shivers. It would drive me batty having a week's worth of laundry piling up, or knowing I had to devote an entire day to it. I'd much rather throw in a load here and there as I get enough clothes, and as I have time.

[Ausmumof3]

12 hours ago, SereneHome said:

We are on our 3rd fridge in the last 9 years.  Best Buy doesn't give out 5 yr fridge warranties anymore, just 3 yrs - bc evidently they break down after about 4 yrs

Have you had your power supply checked?  My sis had trouble and it turns out the power supply to the house was actually a bit unstable and it kills fridges.

frustrating anyway but at least they worked out what caused it.

[moonflower]

7 hours ago, fairfarmhand said:

Jumping off from this:

i don’t buy that veganism will save the world. Honestly, I think we need to get away from massive industrial farming altogether. No more monoculture. Small farms with several different crops. This means the animals will be “grass fed” and that’s ok. We have parts of our farm that are never going to be productive for crops. (Too steep and rugged) but my animals can graze those fields. Really I think if we wanted to and had to we could grow food for at least 5 other families on our acreage. I think one would need to duplicate that model by the thousands to really make a difference and it would NOT be cheap. Americans would never go for it. They don’t get it that what you pay for at the grocery store is not the cost of providing that food. The environmental cost is not included.  And farm subsidies keep the market from accurately reflecting the cost of many products.

 

I think that's a great idea and wonderful for the farmers that live there and the 5 other families their farm's food can support, but the numbers just don't work over the whole population.  Maybe people could have grass-fed meat once a year?  Or something, I'm not sure.  But certainly not at the levels people are eating animal products now, or even anything remotely close to it.  

[Pawz4me]

5 minutes ago, moonflower said:

 

I think that's a great idea and wonderful for the farmers that live there and the 5 other families their farm's food can support, but the numbers just don't work over the whole population.  Maybe people could have grass-fed meat once a year?  Or something, I'm not sure.  But certainly not at the levels people are eating animal products now, or even anything remotely close to it.  

I agree. I abhor factory farming, but realistically I don't see any way to feed everyone without it (not that everyone is adequately fed now, but y'all know what I mean). I doubt it could be done even if the average person drastically reduced their consumption of animal products.