Help me understand--teen girls becoming boys

[Ali in OR]

Don't hate on me! I am not trying to offend anyone, just trying to understand our changing world better. I returned to working in a high school this year after a 25-year hiatus. And the world has changed.

I have 60 out of about 140 students in my math classes who were called female at birth. I am very surprised at the number of them who are in some process of changing to male names/pronouns etc--6 out of 60, or 10% (just learned of the 6th today, hence this post). I know this is a very difficult time for them--some have mental health issues, I think all have extra counseling or support groups, etc. I care about these kids and try to treat them with respect  and understanding (but an occasional wrong pronoun will slip out, especially when the change is new). This did not exist in high schools 25 years ago though, and I could use some help understanding what is different. How can 10% of a gender really be the other? And I have no male students transitioning to female--I can't even call this a "girl" thing, because that's not the right word anymore. But it is very one-sided here. Anxiety and mental health issues are far more abundant too--not sure if it was all just hidden 25 years ago or if our youth today are far more affected than today's 40 year olds were (the youth of 25 years ago). What's going on?

So if you understand this better than I do, enlighten me. Would love any book recommendations too.

[Pen]

Just now, Arctic Mama said:

There is a definite social contagion aspect to sudden the onset gender dysphoria, I read a really well done article on it just last month and I’ll see if I can find it and PM it to you.

 

could you link article here?

[KungFuPanda]

6 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

could you link article here?

Yes please. 

[Bluegoat]

Last numbers I heard for gender changing among teen girls had an increase of something like 5000%, I believe that was for the UK.    

There is a lot of reason to think some of it is about social contagion, as mentioned.  I also think it's been a thing for teen girls to try and change their identity in some way forever.  There are fairly high numbers of these girls on the autism spectrum or with other mental health issues.  And then, I suspect a huge proportion of teen girls experience something that could easily be interpreted as body dysphoria.    

Add to all that the fact that there is a lot of talk among the kids at school about changing gender, from the school itself in many cases (my dd's school had a poster telling them there were 111 genders, several novels about gender changing kids in the library, and some sort of a presentation from an outside group), and its all over the place in social media, and there you have it.

Edited January 30, 2019 by Bluegoat

[wathe]

I liked this brief article.  There does seem to be a social contagion element. 

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, Arctic Mama said:

There is a definite social contagion aspect to rapid onset gender dysphoria, I read a really well done article on it just last month and I’ll see if I can find it and PM it to you.

I would really like to read any articles like this as well. This subject is very important to me and I have been wondering about the social contagion element before I was aware anyone was looking into that because I see it too. 

There is at least one person in my life whom I think is likely to change back to original birth gender. That is another subject I would like to learn more about. 

[wathe]

Non-suicidal self injury (cutting) rates have also increased dramatically in teen girls.  Similar social contagion element, I think. 

I think that female adolescence is just really hard.  The combination of the physical (earlier puberty than boys) with the social ( life as a woman in a patriarchal/misogynous society) is difficult.  I think I can understand how a young teen-aged girl might come to believe that transitioning to a male body/male social role might make her life better.  Especially if it seems to be working for her friends.

 

 

Edited January 30, 2019 by wathe

[Ali in OR]

I teach one class that is almost all boys--only 3 girls show up regularly. There is much "boy behavior", pencil-snapping wars, drumming with rulers, pranking each other. And I think, would you really want to change to that?? (I'm kidding a bit here. But still). But I don't think they do want to be that, really. Thankfully none of them have adopted the stereotypical boy behaviors along with the names and pronouns!

[Scarlett]

When I was 12 I decided I would be reinvented by using my given first name instead of my nick name I had been called since birth.  It is one of my greater regrets.

[LMD]

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0202330

This is the only published study on rapid onset gender dysphoria, and there was a fair bit of upset when it was released.

Re the rising UK figures, the main gender clinic, Tavistock, went from 96 total referrals in '09/'10, to 2519 total referrals in '17/'18. Which is over 2600% rise in less than a decade. 155 of those 2519 kids are <10 years old. 1806 (over 70%) of those kids are girls. The numbers are so shocking that the UK government has an enquiry going, ans there is concern especially around the overlap with girls with ASD.

[Tanaqui]

It's been known for a while - at least among autistics! - that autism and being non-cisgender correlate.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Arctic Mama said:

Clear your inbox or message me, the system isn’t letting me message you 🙂

Done - thank you. I’m a message hoarder! 

[Carrie12345]

Just anecdotal, but my experiences with transgender boys (two, who don’t know each other) hasn’t sparked any transgender trends among their classmates, but it appears to have increased their friends’ confidence and comfort levels with gender/sex/sexuality fluidity. (And the parents’, too!) I feel it’s been an awesome thing, and I love our little groups.

In a 10% scenario, my layperson assumption would be that more kids are feeling free to explore/challenge the norms without genuinely identifying as male, but trying to find power not just being who everyone wants them to be... while still trying to figure out who they are.

[maize]

Some mental health care practitioners seem to be actively steering people towards transition as the in vogue mental health solution of the day. Anecdotally one person I know well has had more than one therapist push them to declare themselves transgender-- this person is open to the idea but doesn't think it fits themself (i.e. they don't actually feel like they are something other than their birth sex) and finds the pressure disturbing and odd. If they were an adolescent and less certain of their own thoughts the therapist's steering might have led them to make unnecessarily complicated life and medical decisions.

That is not the only case of inappropriate therapist steering I've heard about, I wonder what role that may play in the phenomenon of entire friend groups (usually of teen girls) deciding they need to transition. Could they all be seeing the same therapist?

Edited January 30, 2019 by maize

[MercyA]

8 minutes ago, maize said:

That is not the only case of inappropriate therapist steering I've heard about

Yes. I saw a therapist once who seemed convinced that my dad must have abused me and who wanted me to "get angry" at my parents. Neither of my parents had done anything wrong. They are the best parents in the world. If I had been more suggestible, it could have been bad.

Don't quote, please.

[maize]

I'm thinking that the feeling of "I'm different, I don't fit in" is a very common one in adolescence. Add to that the remarkable awkwardness of transition to a woman's body, with its unfamiliar curves and padding and tendency to bleed and...well, male bodies look a lot more like the child body a girl was used to. I think there is some inherent dysphoria in becoming a woman; I know I didn't like the changes!

Not to mention the social pressures put on teen girls to look and act and be a certain way.

So then you have folks around you saying that psychological discomfort and dysphoria mean you aren't really female and transitioning to male will solve the problem. I think that would be easy to embrace.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, maize said:

Some mental health care practitioners seem to be actively steering people towards transition as the in vogue mental health solution of the day. Anecdotally one person I know well has had more than one therapist push them to declare themselves transgender-- this person is open to the idea but doesn't think it fits themself (i.e. they don't actually feel like they are something other than their birth sex) and finds the pressure disturbing and odd. If they were an adolescent and less certain of their own thoughts the therapist's steering might have led them to make unnecessarily complicated life and medical decisions.

That is not the only case of inappropriate therapist steering I've heard about, I wonder what role that may play in the phenomenon of entire friend groups (usually of teen girls) deciding they need to transition. Could they all be seeing the same therapist?

ITA. It also seems to me there is a lot of peer suggestion at play. 

When I was a teen (in the 80s), if a girl seemed drawn to masculine expressions or a guy seemed effeminate, the overwhelming likelihood of either mean-spirited OR kind-spirited suggestion was that they were lesbian/gay. It was literally how people, whether derisively or seriously, described being homosexual - “I am a ——- trapped in a ———‘s body.” People didn’t suggest, “you must be transgender.” They suggested, “you must be gay.” The more progressive people viewed themselves as accepting of homosexuality as a fact of some people’s lives. Now, this same view is transferred to accepting transgenderism. 

 

[Ravin]

So...I'm dealing with some of this with my DD. I think part of it is that nonbinary gender identities and trends toward androgyny in fashion (which tends to be conceived of as reflecting an adult-sized person with preadolescent traits, i.e., no breasts, no facial hair, as opposed to a blend of traits such as breasts AND facial hair) are becoming more common among young people. My DD has not asked for a different name or different pronouns, and I would be extremely skeptical if she said she was FTM, because she is far from insistent, consistent, and persistent about it.

However, she has said that she feels more confident some of the time with a flat chest, and as she is now at a 32DD, when she had a pretty much flat chest 2 years ago, that is understandable. We have been negotiating whether or not she should wear a binder some of the time--she has asked for one, and given that I wore one myself for several years, and have extensively researched the risks, etc., I insisted she try an athletic compression shirt first. She insisted it didn't work, and refused to try combining it with a sports bra or taking comparison pics of how she looks with clothes on over it. Which tells me that the part of this thing with her is really just a power struggle over getting me to spend money on her. I'm going to take the difference to buy a proper binder out of her allowance. 

The only reason I'm getting her the binder at this point is that it's less problematic than what some youth get up to to try and bind without the proper garment. I do think her experimentation with gender expression/nonconformity has a great deal more to do with anxiety & depression + desire to fit in with peers + discomfort with the changes that have come with puberty + not liking her body generally because it's not healthy (fibromyalgia), and attention seeking than with her gender identity/how her brain is wired. She got mad at me for agreeing when she said I think it's "just a phase." I told her we all go through phases in our lives in our relationship with our bodies.

 

 

[fairfarmhand]

One thing that really bugs me along these lines is that women and girls have fought for years To be able to do traditionally male things Like sports, camping, outdoor stuff. But just because you enjoy these things and don’t want makeup and dresses doesn’t mean that you’re not female. I love working outdoors. While I like being cute from time to time it’s not something I think of every day.  And yet...im definitely female and comfortable being an outdoorsy type. A girl can pursue traditionally “masculine” interests without having some sort of gender dysphoria. I think it would be easy for a middle schooler to believe that unless you want to be a girl who loves sparkles, guys, makeup and clothes that there’s something wrong with you because so many women are portraying themselves as sex objects and that’s what being female is about.

i feel that I’m explaining this clumsily. I’m not trying to offend...

[Ali in OR]

20 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

One thing that really bugs me along these lines is that women and girls have fought for years To be able to do traditionally male things Like sports, camping, outdoor stuff. But just because you enjoy these things and don’t want makeup and dresses doesn’t mean that you’re not female. I love working outdoors. While I like being cute from time to time it’s not something I think of every day.  And yet...im definitely female and comfortable being an outdoorsy type. A girl can pursue traditionally “masculine” interests without having some sort of gender dysphoria. I think it would be easy for a middle schooler to believe that unless you want to be a girl who loves sparkles, guys, makeup and clothes that there’s something wrong with you because so many women are portraying themselves as sex objects and that’s what being female is about.

i feel that I’m explaining this clumsily. I’m not trying to offend...

No, I think you're explaining it well. I think I get it and agree. I'm very much female and extremely comfortable with that, but I don't dress very feminine, I'm comfortable in male-dominated fields (engineering major), etc. I think our definition of what it is to be female is too limited. And in my opinion it's not helped by high visibility men becoming women like Bruce/Caitlin Jenner. He tries to become a super-model type of woman (in his 60's or 70's??)--nothing at all familiar about what I think being a woman is.

[fairfarmhand]

And on the flip side, perfectly normal males who identify As male can love music, dance, cooking and playing with babies. There’s more to being male than just being the Bruce Willis type of guy. Some guys are brash and bold and outdoorsy. Some are gentler and *softer* and some guys are both at different times. 

[fairfarmhand]

Perhaps this is a way for young ladies who are not comfortable with pursuing guys and being a sex symbol to *hide* from the pressures that those expectations being. 

Like if you’re not ready for a boyfriend at age 13 or 16 or even 19, you have to be something else. When really all it is is that you don’t want the relationship pressures and drama. 

I’m sure there are all kinds of reasons for this, but I wonder how linked much of it is to our overly sexualized media. 

[Bluegoat]

4 hours ago, maize said:

Some mental health care practitioners seem to be actively steering people towards transition as the in vogue mental health solution of the day. Anecdotally one person I know well has had more than one therapist push them to declare themselves transgender-- this person is open to the idea but doesn't think it fits themself (i.e. they don't actually feel like they are something other than their birth sex) and finds the pressure disturbing and odd. If they were an adolescent and less certain of their own thoughts the therapist's steering might have led them to make unnecessarily complicated life and medical decisions.

That is not the only case of inappropriate therapist steering I've heard about, I wonder what role that may play in the phenomenon of entire friend groups (usually of teen girls) deciding they need to transition. Could they all be seeing the same therapist?

 

It certainly could be.  I'm in a medium sized city, and all kids that go to a therapist for gender related stuff pretty much go to the same clinic which has two or three doctors.

[Bluegoat]

I think a heck of a lot of girls are uncomfortable with bodily changes, and probably don't become comfortable until they are in late teens or early 20s.  Especially if they are more curvy, which some think means fat - but they find the male attention very uncomfortable.

I don't think the answer though is to change your body, or even to get rid of all male attention.  It's kind of a process to become comfortable with yourself and your body, it takes time.  But when that kind of discomfort is being seen as falling within this very specific paradigm which has a very clear solution - I think that doesn't help, ultimately.  Even apart from any more extreme measures, it does nothing to really help the person become comfortable in their body.  On the contrary, it's alienating.

[DawnM]

16 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

I'm spending a lot of time with my boy talking him through this at the moment. It's all become so restrictive; at least where we are, gender stereotypes have become worse, not better. No, liking colorful clothes, and florals, and theatre, and long hair, and preferring your girl friends, and being gentle and uninterested in blokey stuff does not mean you were meant to be a girl. It means that the current conception of maleness amongst your peer group is seriously skewed. I can't believe we went through the whole gender bending of the 70's and 80's only to end up here, where a boy who likes having floral cushions on his bed is actually a girl. Madness. Total madness. Luckily for him, he has a mum who is 1. totally supportive of boys and men (and girls and women) having a wide, wide range of gender expression, and 2. grounded in material reality.

 

 

That is unfortunate.  My oldest is an Artist, goes to an Art School, favorite color is purple, and has long hair.  Middle son is into theatre, performs, plays music, and is very caring and gentle.  Neither is gay.  Both can cook and clean.  Both aren't good at sports and don't care.  

[Bluegoat]

25 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

I'm spending a lot of time with my boy talking him through this at the moment. It's all become so restrictive; at least where we are, gender stereotypes have become worse, not better. No, liking colorful clothes, and florals, and theatre, and long hair, and preferring your girl friends, and being gentle and uninterested in blokey stuff does not mean you were meant to be a girl. It means that the current conception of maleness amongst your peer group is seriously skewed. I can't believe we went through the whole gender bending of the 70's and 80's only to end up here, where a boy who likes having floral cushions on his bed is actually a girl. Madness. Total madness. Luckily for him, he has a mum who is 1. totally supportive of boys and men (and girls and women) having a wide, wide range of gender expression, and 2. grounded in material reality.

 

 

What is a little odd to me - apart from the obvious for someone who grew up in the Boy George/David Bowie etc era - is that people seem to be saying that queer theory is about exploding gender constructs.  But that doesn't seem to be the effect, at all.  Instead it's kind of hardened into types.  It's not even just boys who like floral pillows and dislike sports, there are also boys who might like floral pillows and rugby, which doesn't seem to have a category at all.  I've wondered, did the presentation experimenting back in the day in some way feed into this?  There are a lot of threads and it is difficult to untangle them.  

I am starting to think the idea of being in some sense defined by these markers - like our identity has these sets of qualities which need to be fulfilled, may be part of it.  Like - I am a girl who would like long hair, or alternately short hair - if I can't because of social convention, or that is weird, it is a kind of oppression of who I really am.  So - we say, these social conventions like hair length aren't important, let people be who they are.  But the flip side of that seems to be that there is a sense of it being important after all, or why would it matter if haircuts were standardised. People aren't , oh, this is trivial, I can do whatever.  It's oh, this is important that I be able to do whatever.

20 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

We've pathologised discomfort. 

My son seemed surprised when I shared with him the fact that often we don't know 100% what is going on with our psyches or our bodies, and that, like other emotions, it's OK to just observe one's physical, psychic, emotional, cognitive discomfort. He was ??? wut ??? when I told him it's normal to move through phases in life where you feel a greater comfort with your identity, and times where you really struggle with who you are. These are normal human emotions that don't actually require much, if any, intervention. 

Same for girls.

 

 

I am also wondering what brought us here.  I feel like it is linked to things like being so risk adverse as a society, and it reminds me of things I saw in attachment parenting - where there was this sense that struggle is damaging.  I even saw someone say the other day that a reason not to let cats outside is that they are more stressed.  There seems to be little sense that there is value in stress or suffering, or even an acceptance of it's inevitability.

[goldberry]

I won't say much here, except that while I am in favor of transgendered people being treated with more respect, the trend of "trying transgender" as an answer to feelings of not fitting in with your peer group or with your sexual biology is concerning. I think that late or rapid onset gender dysphoria is a whole separate situation from early onset.  When they are treated exactly the same, I don't see that as helpful.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, StellaM said:

 

We've pathologised discomfort. 

My son seemed surprised when I shared with him the fact that often we don't know 100% what is going on with our psyches or our bodies, and that, like other emotions, it's OK to just observe one's physical, psychic, emotional, cognitive discomfort. He was ??? wut ??? when I told him it's normal to move through phases in life where you feel a greater comfort with your identity, and times where you really struggle with who you are. These are normal human emotions that don't actually require much, if any, intervention. 

Same for girls.

 

That’s an interesting observation. It seems to go with the broader problem I have been thinking a lot about lately: kids who have no resilience and parents who require nothing from them lest they be unhappy. I mean, I’ve clearly tended towards that over my kids’ lifetimes, but I’m seeing some really extreme examples in the past ten or so years. 

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, kand said:

This is so true! This goes for more realms than just this one. I sense kids now feel like something quite alarming must be wrong if they are feeling unhappy or uncomfortable. 

EX.ACT.LY

[Guest]

Quote

I am also wondering what brought us here.  I feel like it is linked to things like being so risk adverse as a society, and it reminds me of things I saw in attachment parenting - where there was this sense that struggle is damaging.  I even saw someone say the other day that a reason not to let cats outside is that they are more stressed.  There seems to be little sense that there is value in stress or suffering, or even an acceptance of it's inevitability.

YES. That’s exactly what I’ve been thinking. I used to be active in an AP board many years ago and there were endless instances where I thought, “You’re out of your bleeping mind!” When someone or other would post the contortions they would go through to keep her baby from a moment’s displeasure. It was why I moved away from AP as my kids grew. There was so much that seemed like permanent infantalizing. 

[Farrar]

Some of the things people are talking about are worries for me as well, especially in regards to body image and rigid interpretations of gender roles from all ends. But I get concerned when we are dismissive of kids' identities. I guess... talking about why these things are changing in society is all very well and good and it's so true that all of us have various phases in our quest for identity, but when faced with an individual kid, my feeling is that letting them define themselves is a positive thing. Even if that identity shifts, then that's okay. I don't have a moral issue with kids trying on different gender identities - or different sexual orientations.

My feeling is that on a grand scale if we're not making enough room for different expressions of gender among cis kids so they feel that trans identities are more appealing or that too many girls are uncomfortable with their changing bodies because either society sends them negative messages about those bodies or because we're not giving them the support they need... that we can't change that by not respecting what individual kids are asking to do and be called and wear and all that. We have to attack those things on a bigger scale. 

 

[EmseB]

3 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Some of the things people are talking about are worries for me as well, especially in regards to body image and rigid interpretations of gender roles from all ends. But I get concerned when we are dismissive of kids' identities. I guess... talking about why these things are changing in society is all very well and good and it's so true that all of us have various phases in our quest for identity, but when faced with an individual kid, my feeling is that letting them define themselves is a positive thing. Even if that identity shifts, then that's okay. I don't have a moral issue with kids trying on different gender identities - or different sexual orientations.

My feeling is that on a grand scale if we're not making enough room for different expressions of gender among cis kids so they feel that trans identities are more appealing or that too many girls are uncomfortable with their changing bodies because either society sends them negative messages about those bodies or because we're not giving them the support they need... that we can't change that by not respecting what individual kids are asking to do and be called and wear and all that. We have to attack those things on a bigger scale. 

 

I don't know about this because what girls are being told now versus, say, 20 years ago is so vastly different. Sometimes it's not bad for someone older with more life experience to say, "I felt that way and it is normal. It doesn't necessarily mean A or B. I know it is difficult because most girls your age are [fill in the blank] and you're not. Let's wait and see how this goes." And moral differences aside, what most people disagree with isn't just letting kids try on different identities (although I'm really not sure what that means). We're talking about hormones, binders, surgeries, etc., that may have irreversible consequences.

[Farrar]

I just think it's up to individuals to define themselves. Which I don't think harms anyone as long as we're understanding and supportive and leave room for identities to change and settle.

I'm just saying that I see that as a separate issue from some of the greater societal issues at play. As in, I'm also concerned that one of the reasons that so many girls increasingly are identifying as trans might be because we don't do a good job of supporting girls, especially when their bodies change. But I don't buy that then telling a biologically female child who is identifying as male in that moment that they're not or that it's pretend or a phase (even if it does turn out to be a phase) is particularly helpful in fixing either that child or the potential cause. I just generally don't think being dismissive of kids' beliefs or what have you is ever very good for them... even when we don't agree with them.

The separation of gender and sex is... I think at this point... probably inevitable in the minds of a lot of young people. And I don't see that as negative either. They have separate meanings. I also think... if a generation from now tons of people are identifying as non-binary, then... okay. I don't think that's inherently bad for society or anything. This generation just sees gender radically differently. And this conversation has focused on some of the negatives of that (and I'm not saying there aren't some potentially). But I also see a lot of positives with that, at least potentially.

[Familia]

3 minutes ago, Farrar said:

The separation of gender and sex is... I think at this point... probably inevitable in the minds of a lot of young people. And I don't see that as negative either. They have separate meanings. I also think... if a generation from now tons of people are identifying as non-binary, then... okay. I don't think that's inherently bad for society or anything. This generation just sees gender radically differently. And this conversation has focused on some of the negatives of that (and I'm not saying there aren't some potentially). But I also see a lot of positives with that, at least potentially.

I do not know if it is possible for me to understand, but I will tell you what question I ask myself when I read this type of comment:

Not societally or culturally, but just pure and simple fact: isn't gender all about s*x?  I mean, the biological reality is that gender is tied to s*x organs that are biologically made to provide half the chromosomes in reproduction.  Does this not have any meaning to young people anymore? 

[katilac]

21 hours ago, Ali in OR said:

<snip>

I have 60 out of about 140 students in my math classes who were called female at birth. I am very surprised at the number of them who are in some process of changing to male names/pronouns etc--6 out of 60, or 10%  <snip>

And I have no male students transitioning to female 

 

I think this is explained in large part by the fact that male-to-female is more likely to get an extremely hostile and violent reaction from peers in high school.

Please note that I am not saying that female-to-male does not ever get a hostile or violent reaction. 

[LMD]

45 minutes ago, Farrar said:

I just think it's up to individuals to define themselves. Which I don't think harms anyone as long as we're understanding and supportive and leave room for identities to change and settle.

I'm just saying that I see that as a separate issue from some of the greater societal issues at play. As in, I'm also concerned that one of the reasons that so many girls increasingly are identifying as trans might be because we don't do a good job of supporting girls, especially when their bodies change. But I don't buy that then telling a biologically female child who is identifying as male in that moment that they're not or that it's pretend or a phase (even if it does turn out to be a phase) is particularly helpful in fixing either that child or the potential cause. I just generally don't think being dismissive of kids' beliefs or what have you is ever very good for them... even when we don't agree with them.

The separation of gender and sex is... I think at this point... probably inevitable in the minds of a lot of young people. And I don't see that as negative either. They have separate meanings. I also think... if a generation from now tons of people are identifying as non-binary, then... okay. I don't think that's inherently bad for society or anything. This generation just sees gender radically differently. And this conversation has focused on some of the negatives of that (and I'm not saying there aren't some potentially). But I also see a lot of positives with that, at least potentially.

I agree, but mastectomies as teens isn't really leaving room for change. That's where the US is now. 

I agree with your second paragraph. Those feelings are real to that girl. I am concerned that exploring those feelings, separately from medical transitioning, is being shutdown under 'conversion therapy'. Where we differ, is the girl literally isn't male, that just is. Sooner or later they must reckon with the physical reality of their bodies. That's nothing to do with politics or trends. It's everything to do with loving and supporting them.

The separation of gender and sex is fine, helpful even - if you have a working definition of both. (Feminism does) Trans activists saying that a trans person is literally the opposite sex, helps no-one imo. 

[Farrar]

39 minutes ago, Familia said:

I do not know if it is possible for me to understand, but I will tell you what question I ask myself when I read this type of comment:

Not societally or culturally, but just pure and simple fact: isn't gender all about s*x?  I mean, the biological reality is that gender is tied to s*x organs that are biologically made to provide half the chromosomes in reproduction.  Does this not have any meaning to young people anymore? 

Sex refers to the biological sex that someone has. In other words, things like what you've got in your pants and your genes. We're talking purely anatomy and genetics here. You can, through surgery and medications, change some aspects of your biology, but not most. To be clear, people who identify as trans generally understand this.

Gender refers to the social roles that we define around the terms "male" and "female." It has nothing to do with biology - it's purely about the ideas that people have about roles, characteristics, etc. It also refers to how someone presents themselves according to those roles. You can easily change your gender presentation by altering your clothes, hair, etc.

Some people feel these are inextricably linked. That biology determines your gender, end stop. Other people feel that gender does not exist. There is only biology and gender roles are imaginary. Others feel these are useful ways to talk about two different things. There's nothing inherently "feminine" about pink, for example. In fact, pink used to be considered masculine. But we can't deny that pink is viewed by the vast majority of people in the West as associated with one group over another. So that has to do with gender, not sex. On the other hand, there is something biologically inherent about having a uterus (which is not to say that all women have one... there are all kinds of reasons - many of which have nothing to do with being trans - that women might not, but you get the idea) so that has to do with sex, not gender. It gets tricky because a lot of things get more vague or are up for some debate. Is "assertiveness" to do with masculine gender or the male sex or both?

I would argue that people changing their gender doesn't hurt anyone so it's a-okay, have at it. And that while gender is a social construct that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or affect us in all kinds of ways. Now, some of the things that people do to change their gender expression can potentially be individually harmful. Like, as suggested above, binding one's breasts can have negative physical consequences if not done right. Hormones and surgery can be much more serious steps. Waiting on those things until it's clear that a desire is consistent, long term, possibly until someone is of a certain age, etc. seems beyond reasonable.

[Bluegoat]

I'm not convinced it is actually a good thing to give young people the idea that their identity is somehow completely up to them to decide upon or construct.  It's just not true, for one thing, that could only ever be the case if we were some completely individualistic species, our identities are always defined in relation to things outside ourselves.

But the focus on this now is IMO becoming really extreme.  The way things like fandom and body modification in general have been drawn into creating ones identity - it becomes too a capitalist activity.  And in many ways I think it is almost the opposite of what people have thought for many generations is the way to maturity and self-knowledge, which is to shed these constructed identities as much as possible.  Sure, teens have always tried on roles, but generally it's in realising that such things do not define or comprise us that we find psychological and mental and spiritual stability.

[Farrar]

5 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

I'm not actually sure about this. 

Socially, at least where I am, the 'rules' among peer groups are pretty strict - immediate adoption of cross sex pronouns and identities for both - with social ostracising of anyone who doesn't play. 

I do agree that gender 'transgressing' males have far less room to manuouvere in society, generally, than gender 'transgressing' females; however, butch lesbians have been getting beaten and verbally abused forever for their 'crime' of rejecting femininity.

 

HRC's death toll for trans people murdered in 2018 included at least one trans man. Yeah, obviously people born male who transition to non-binary or female identities get it way worse, but there is absolutely violence against trans men.

[Farrar]

2 minutes ago, Bluegoat said:

I'm not convinced it is actually a good thing to give young people the idea that their identity is somehow completely up to them to decide upon or construct.  It's just not true, for one thing, that could only ever be the case if we were some completely individualistic species, our identities are always defined in relation to things outside ourselves.

But the focus on this now is IMO becoming really extreme.  The way things like fandom and body modification in general have been drawn into creating ones identity - it becomes too a capitalist activity.  And in many ways I think it is almost the opposite of what people have thought for many generations is the way to maturity and self-knowledge, which is to shed these constructed identities as much as possible.  Sure, teens have always tried on roles, but generally it's in realising that such things do not define or comprise us that we find psychological and mental and spiritual stability.

Why not? I decided who I am.

Putting aside things like body modification and the right to do those things. Seriously, we all decide what sort of people we want to be, what masks to wear and refuse to wear, how to present ourselves to the world. Even when those aren't conscious choices, even when those choices are deeply influenced by culture, family, community, etc.

[LMD]

23 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Sex refers to the biological sex that someone has. In other words, things like what you've got in your pants and your genes. We're talking purely anatomy and genetics here. You can, through surgery and medications, change some aspects of your biology, but not most. To be clear, people who identify as trans generally understand this.

Gender refers to the social roles that we define around the terms "male" and "female." It has nothing to do with biology - it's purely about the ideas that people have about roles, characteristics, etc. It also refers to how someone presents themselves according to those roles. You can easily change your gender presentation by altering your clothes, hair, etc.

Some people feel these are inextricably linked. That biology determines your gender, end stop. Other people feel that gender does not exist. There is only biology and gender roles are imaginary. Others feel these are useful ways to talk about two different things. There's nothing inherently "feminine" about pink, for example. In fact, pink used to be considered masculine. But we can't deny that pink is viewed by the vast majority of people in the West as associated with one group over another. So that has to do with gender, not sex. On the other hand, there is something biologically inherent about having a uterus (which is not to say that all women have one... there are all kinds of reasons - many of which have nothing to do with being trans - that women might not, but you get the idea) so that has to do with sex, not gender. It gets tricky because a lot of things get more vague or are up for some debate. Is "assertiveness" to do with masculine gender or the male sex or both?

I would argue that people changing their gender doesn't hurt anyone so it's a-okay, have at it. And that while gender is a social construct that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or affect us in all kinds of ways. Now, some of the things that people do to change their gender expression can potentially be individually harmful. Like, as suggested above, binding one's breasts can have negative physical consequences if not done right. Hormones and surgery can be much more serious steps. Waiting on those things until it's clear that a desire is consistent, long term, possibly until someone is of a certain age, etc. seems beyond reasonable.

See, I don't disagree with any of this.

Where the disconnect happens for me is, if gender is separate from sex, why changing gender means affecting sex characteristics?

Also, I think exploring gendered presentation is something quite different from switching from one gender box to the other. With maturity, I hope the girls see that they don't need to pick a set of stereotypes.

And I have seen plenty of official trans advice about literal cross sex brains/essence/souls, I've had trans people try to tell me that hormones change their cells from one sex to the other. I have great respect for trans people who understand the difference, this new wave is something else.

[Bluegoat]

27 minutes ago, Farrar said:

Why not? I decided who I am.

Putting aside things like body modification and the right to do those things. Seriously, we all decide what sort of people we want to be, what masks to wear and refuse to wear, how to present ourselves to the world. Even when those aren't conscious choices, even when those choices are deeply influenced by culture, family, community, etc.

 

I don't think anyone decides who they are.  We have some ability to make choices about things that we do, but most of what we can do is come to know who we are, and take of the masks we wear - at least for ourselves if not in public.

[Hoggirl]

It is the medical/surgical aspect at a young age that shocks me.  I have a friend with a friend whose daughter is getting a double mastectomy at the age of 15 over her spring break. Obviously friend’s friend has to give permission for this given her daughter’s age.  I would label this mutilation.  I really cannot imagine a physician consenting to do this.  

[Tanaqui]

Quote

I agree, but mastectomies as teens isn't really leaving room for change. That's where the US is now. 

 

I don't think it is. I'd be surprised if there were even a handful of such cases in the US. The standard right now is puberty blockers - which we know are reasonably safe and reversible because we've been using them for decades on children with precocious puberty.

Quote

Where the disconnect happens for me is, if gender is separate from sex, why changing gender means affecting sex characteristics? 

 

Putting dysphoria aside, many people find that if they don't look like their gender, they're not treated like that. (And if they don't act in a stereotypical way it can be very hard to get therapy and medical care, so they're sorta in a bind in that regard. If you are a transgender woman, and you want medical treatment, you end up having to be way more sparkly and pink than you might necessarily have wanted to be. Here's an interesting link on the subject, written by a transgender woman: https://twitter.com/scattermoon/status/1076624068093399043?s=09 )

 

[Tanaqui]

1 minute ago, Hoggirl said:

It is the medical/surgical aspect at a young age that shocks me.  I have a friend with a friend whose daughter is getting a double mastectomy at the age of 15 over her spring break. Obviously friend’s friend has to give permission for this given her daughter’s age.  I would label this mutilation.  I really cannot imagine a physician consenting to do this.  

 

If it's a friend-of-a-friend might I suggest that you don't know the whole story and it's entirely possible that there is some completely medical reason for this that you're simply not privy to?

[Hoggirl]

Just now, Tanaqui said:

 

If it's a friend-of-a-friend might I suggest that you don't know the whole story and it's entirely possible that there is some completely medical reason for this that you're simply not privy to?

 

It is a friend-of-a-friend.  All I can say is that according to my friend, the daughter (who is friends with my friend’s daughter!  Ack!  Sorry - it’s not as convoluted as it seems).  Two mother-daughter sets of friends. I know one of the mothers.  The daughters are friends in high school together.  I can only go by what my friend has told me which is that her daughter’s friend is transgendering (I hope I am using that word correctly) and wants to have this done and her parents are allowing it.  My friend was talking to me about it because she is very concerned about anyone making this irreversible change/decision at such a young age. 

Of course there could be a medical reason that I am not privy to.  But that would mean the young woman is lying to all her friends at school about her transgendering and why she is having this done.  

[Tanaqui]

The word you're looking for there is transitioning, not transgendering. Transgender is something you are (or aren't), transition is something you do to help other people see you like the person you are.

[LMD]

56 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

 

I don't think it is. I'd be surprised if there were even a handful of such cases in the US. The standard right now is puberty blockers - which we know are reasonably safe and reversible because we've been using them for decades on children with precocious puberty.

 

Putting dysphoria aside, many people find that if they don't look like their gender, they're not treated like that. (And if they don't act in a stereotypical way it can be very hard to get therapy and medical care, so they're sorta in a bind in that regard. If you are a transgender woman, and you want medical treatment, you end up having to be way more sparkly and pink than you might necessarily have wanted to be. Here's an interesting link on the subject, written by a transgender woman: https://twitter.com/scattermoon/status/1076624068093399043?s=09 )

 

Olson-kennedy's research in '17-'18 talked about at least 30 girls who'd had mastectomies under 18.

Dr Crane (with at least 8 malpractice lawsuits) says that he is 'very accustomed' to treating patients under 18, right on his own website.

I think you are wildly misrepresenting the side effects of puberty blockers and our knowledge of how they work when used in this way. Even so, the studies show that without medicalisation, trans identifying teens desist at around 80%. With medicalisation (blockers to 'pause' and 'buy time') the desistance rate drops dramatically- some clinics boast that it drops to 0%.

 

Eta, sorry meant to respond to your last paragraph since you took the time to respond to my question, thank you.

I agree that the necessity of stereotyped presentation as a part of accessing treatment for dysphoria is troubling, I would absolutely support trans people having a discussion about that. My concern is that a struggle with socially imposed gender roles is an outward struggle, is very different to body dysmorphia - an inward struggle with ones sexed body. Conflating the two and treating them the same is damaging to these young women and girls, imo.

Edited January 31, 2019 by LMD

[Hoggirl]

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/07/when-a-child-says-shes-trans/561749/

Here is a loooooong article I found from The Atlantic.  It’s very thorough and presents several POV.

A quote from the article is: 

It’s become more common for surgeons to perform top surgeries on teenagers as young as 16 if they have parental approval. The medical norms are more conservative when it comes to bottom surgeries; Wpath says they should be performed only on adults who have been living in their gender role for at least one year.

One other quote:

Despite the fact that she was a minor for much of the process, she says, her doctors more or less did as she told them.

Edited January 31, 2019 by Hoggirl

[Bluegoat]

2 hours ago, LMD said:

See, I don't disagree with any of this.

Where the disconnect happens for me is, if gender is separate from sex, why changing gender means affecting sex characteristics?

Also, I think exploring gendered presentation is something quite different from switching from one gender box to the other. With maturity, I hope the girls see that they don't need to pick a set of stereotypes.

And I have seen plenty of official trans advice about literal cross sex brains/essence/souls, I've had trans people try to tell me that hormones change their cells from one sex to the other. I have great respect for trans people who understand the difference, this new wave is something else.

 

What always strikes me is that if it is really separate from sex, gender has no meaning.  That's the only thing that creates the axis that it is based on.  Everyone has tastes and preferences about all kinds of things, but we don't put them o some kind of scale or in opposition to each other.  If we weren't sexually dimorphic, we'd not have gender or a sense that things can be masculine or feminine in some sense.

The issue of changing sex characteristics or objecting to language that refers to sex is kind of the proof of that, ultimately - even those who claim that sex and gender are different and unrelated don't actually behave as if they are.