Help me understand--teen girls becoming boys

[Pen]

1 minute ago, OKBud said:

 

OK. Would you like me to edit my previous post to just present those thoughts, taking you out of it altogether? I'm happy to do so if it makes you more comfortable 🙂 

 

Yes please.

[LMD]

2 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Numbers I've seen put intersex as a a higher percentage of the population than that. Ambiguous genitalia only is about that low, but if you combine all the various forms of intersex it is edging closer to 2 percent of the population from the statistics I've seen. https://www.intersexequality.com/how-common-is-intersex-in-humans/

 

 

Yes I've seen those figures. Like you said, it's difficult to calculate! From what I understand, it mainly centres around what you count as intersex. Here's a paper directly disputing the 1.7% figure, it offers 0.018%! https://www.jstor.org/stable/3813612?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

Though I can only access the abstract so that's one reason why I didn't go with that number. The long medium piece I linked earlier was quite thorough.

Anyway, it's rather a derail, having a disorder of sexual development doesn't mean that you can change from one gamete producing class to the other one, or some third/in between reproductive role, people with DSD still have a sex and still have to reckon with the reality of their own physical bodies (often with infertility and other health problems). Maybe some DSDs contribute to developing body dysphoria, that would be an interesting study to read. But as many people keep saying, sex is not the same as gender. I'm more than happy to hear ideas around this, I would just like a working definition of gender/gender identity and how it relates to sex so we're not all talking across each other!

I don't find it more likely that teen girls are suddenly on mass developing DSDs, than teen girls are applying commonly understood teen behaviour (social contagion, disassociation from changing body, struggling with imposed gender roles etc) to a modern framework. But maybe I'm wrong! Maybe there's an environmental component? 

My point is, I don't think suicide or mastectomy as the only choices for a sky rocketing number of teen girls is cause for celebration or indifference. Whatever the cause, it needs discussion and sunlight not prohibition.

Edited February 1, 2019 by LMD

[moonflower]

I think the paradigm is an obvious part of the problem.  If social politeness and/or outright ideological belief require one to say that identifying with the social identity of the opposite sex, to the extent that the person wishes to take drugs and have serious surgery to change his/her body and request others to address him/her as if addressing someone of the sex they are not, is not only solvable by taking drugs and cutting off your breasts and/or reproductive organs but is also not a form of mental illness  then it is hard to enjoin young people against this path as a first response to their distress, because the idea is that there's nothing wrong with feeling this way.

But there is something wrong with feeling this way.  If your options are either suicide or serious bodily mutilation, there is something wrong.  Multilating the body (and requiring society to say that now that you've mutilated your body we will accept your self-definition as socially identical, sometimes legally identical!, with the sex you are not) as a solution to a mental distress with a functional body is not value-neutral.

[Janeway]

Honestly, I think society puts a lot of pressure on kids to pick their gender, with extra acceptance to picking being the other gender. My own son thought he was really a girl back when he was in public school. I highly support gay rights and whatever else, but....he was 9 yrs old.  He only was saying that because others were pushing it on him. I don't care who agrees with me, if you have a Y chromosome, you are a boy. And boys can like ballet and dolls and cooking. And if you have two X chromosomes, you are a girl. And girls can dislike dolls and like science and still be girls. I can only imagine if the 70's met today, how disgusted the 70's would be with how far back gender equality has been thrown. My son still gets told by one relative that he is gay because he does ballet. That relative spent times of time and energy buying him Christmas presents and a portion of those presents are basically flaming outfits. I have tried breaking to that relative that my son is not gay, but honestly it just is not worth it. She never really spends time with my son and he has no interest in her. The colorful clothes will be donated to charity. But back to the original topic, we are in a time when some parents won't tell their children if they are a boy or a girl and then will judge if they are a boy or girl based on the toys they choose. When I grew up, as a girl, science and math was encouraged and I played with little cars and Legos. My brother was given dolls. These days, I would have been labeled a boy and my brother would have been labeled a girl if he had been willing to play with the dolls (he never did). So honestly, I think it should be illegal to give gender hormones to anyone under 21 years old. Teens need to develop normally and without interference. And if the child is allowed to develop normally and then decides they want to wear clothes traditional to the other gender or anything else, then this is ok too.  Those poor girls in your class were probably told if they are good at and like math and.or science, then they must be boys because gosh darnit, girls cannot be good at math or science or enjoy either one.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Janeway

[Pen]

3 hours ago, OKBud said:

 

To be fair, if something reminds you of something, you are starting out with the assumption that the two things are not one and the same. But it's all ironed out in the end regardless 🙂 .

 

Yes.

I understand that it’s the case that one idea can lead to another topic someone is reminded of.

But you then wrote that I “misunderstood’”  (now removed, I think, thank you.) going on to explain about Iran as a reply to a quote from me. 

I hadn’t been writing about Iran in the first place.  

I think maybe you meant to reply to Stella with regard to her saying that Iran gives gay men the chance to transition and accidentally replied to me.

Anyway it’s good now.

[goldberry]

On 1/31/2019 at 1:59 PM, Bluegoat said:

 (Of course it is, because the more conservative clinics that encourage kids to wait or try and be happy as they are have been shut down and are branded conversion therapy.) 

 

Conversion therapy has its own definition, and in my area at least I don't see it being applied to therapy in general.  Healthy therapy has always been about helping the person themselves hash out what they are feeling and why they are feeling that way.  That's not what conversion therapy is about, and I understand and agree with the reasons it can be very destructive. I have seen conversion therapy advise gay people to get married in an effort to convince themselves they are not gay.  It has ruined people's lives (including the spouses involved in it).  Do you have any actual examples of traditional therapy being shut down as conversion therapy?  Because that is not something I have seen or heard of.

[Terabith]

My 15 year old, who despite my trying to steer her towards legos and trucks as a child, loved princesses and ballet and dress up and never showed any iota of gender dysphoria has told us that she is non-binary, because she doesn't particularly feel like a girl.  She said he/ him pronouns don't feel right, but she's good with they/ them.  It's kinda baffling, and I think it has to do with a secret belief that all girls/ women are spending all of their lives thinking about being female, rather than just living and not thinking about gender all that much or often.  And being very busty is annoying.  We bought her a binder and I'm kinda hoping that this will cease being a big deal as she gets older, for her sake.  

[Pen]

16 hours ago, maize said:

Right?!?

Who would want that? And I'd say the same for guys. My brother mentioned recently how disturbing it was to him that people expected a bunch of stereotypes out of him especially after his teenage growth spurt put him well over six feet tall.

 

I think perhaps more guys do want to be a Guy.  I think my ds does.

Would like to fit stereotypes.

More than girls.

I think society still having females being “less than,” is significant—despite that where I live we can vote and various other things once closed .  

[Bluegoat]

4 hours ago, goldberry said:

 

Conversion therapy has its own definition, and in my area at least I don't see it being applied to therapy in general.  Healthy therapy has always been about helping the person themselves hash out what they are feeling and why they are feeling that way.  That's not what conversion therapy is about, and I understand and agree with the reasons it can be very destructive. I have seen conversion therapy advise gay people to get married in an effort to convince themselves they are not gay.  It has ruined people's lives (including the spouses involved in it).  Do you have any actual examples of traditional therapy being shut down as conversion therapy?  Because that is not something I have seen or heard of.

 

In the trans lobby, conversion therapy is the term being used to describe types of therapy that try, even pretty gently and passively, to help children come to terms with their birth sex, or develop a wider understanding of gender norms so they no longer see themselves as outside of them.  This kind of thing is what got the Toronto clinic shut down, and has been labled a kind of transphobia, and absolutly equiavalent to the most negative types of homosexual conversion therapy.

Here is an article about the Toronto clinic.

[moonflower]

1 minute ago, Bluegoat said:

 

In the trans lobby, conversion therapy is the term being used to describe types of therapy that try, even pretty gently and passively, to help children come to terms with their birth sex, or develop a wider understanding of gender norms so they no longer see themselves as outside of them.  This kind of thing is what got the Toronto clinic shut down, and has been labled a kind of transphobia, and absolutly equiavalent to the most negative types of homosexual conversion therapy.

Here is an article about the Toronto clinic.

 

That's some serious Orwellian language, IMO.  

[GoodGrief]

3 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 

Here is an article about the Toronto clinic.

The eventual absence of physically non-invasive options for treating dysphoria seems a certainty if scientists are not allowed to freely research the phenomena.

I know a family in which all three of their biologically female siblings have opted to transition; a 100% rate of dysphoria in a single family.

[Tanaqui]

58 minutes ago, GoodGrief1 said:

The eventual absence of physically non-invasive options for treating dysphoria seems a certainty if scientists are not allowed to freely research the phenomena.

I know a family in which all three of their biologically female siblings have opted to transition; a 100% rate of dysphoria in a single family. 

 

Given the correlation between being transgender and autistic, and the fact that autism is a heritable condition, I don't think I'm too far off the mark in suggesting that not fitting the gender binary is potentially also a heritable condition... or, at least, that a family might all be prone to some condition that also makes you likely to be transgender even if most transgender people don't have that sort of condition.

[Carrie12345]

18 hours ago, Janeway said:

When I grew up, as a girl, science and math was encouraged and I played with little cars and Legos. My brother was given dolls. These days, I would have been labeled a boy and my brother would have been labeled a girl if he had been willing to play with the dolls (he never did).

These are the kinds of leaps that seem to be muddying the waters.
As the parent of a little boy who paints his nails, another boy whose favorite color is pink, and two girls who grew up in the mud and are now firefighters, I’ve never had anyone question their gender or sexuality. And, to be frank, the kid that’s gay is not one that we would have suspected anyway.
If anything, the trend I’ve seen is to encourage toys and activities regardless of stereotypes. Not trying out playthings in order to “determine” their gender based on stereotypes. Believing that you would have been “regendered” today is preposterous, unless you believe your parents would be that insane. If that is the case, you have my sympathy.

Of course I do believe that there are idiots out there who are terrified that a boy who is given dolls or a girl who is given cars will be “ruined”. In the same vein, there may be fruitcakes out there who eagerly read the opposite into non-stereotypical play. But I’ve seen no evidence of a trend to use trucks or ponies to assign a gender identity!

[LMD]

[Bluegoat]

4 hours ago, Tanaqui said:

 

Given the correlation between being transgender and autistic, and the fact that autism is a heritable condition, I don't think I'm too far off the mark in suggesting that not fitting the gender binary is potentially also a heritable condition... or, at least, that a family might all be prone to some condition that also makes you likely to be transgender even if most transgender people don't have that sort of condition.

 

I can think of a heck of a lot of other reasons autistic girls might be particularly vulnerable to this kind of language and way of thinking, besides some kind of genetic tendency for them to have an essence that is outside the gender binary.  

[goldberry]

12 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 

In the trans lobby, conversion therapy is the term being used to describe types of therapy that try, even pretty gently and passively, to help children come to terms with their birth sex, or develop a wider understanding of gender norms so they no longer see themselves as outside of them.  This kind of thing is what got the Toronto clinic shut down, and has been labled a kind of transphobia, and absolutly equiavalent to the most negative types of homosexual conversion therapy.

Here is an article about the Toronto clinic.

 

Thank you for sharing that link.  I do find that concerning.

[goldberry]

It seems odd to me that this would be the *only* thing as a parent that we are not supposed to question and help our kids process.  Dear lord, that is all I've done for the last 20 years with mine, help her process emotional and mental issues.  Asking questions about what she thinks and why she might think that, and how just because you think something doesn't mean it's true, although it might be, and are those thoughts and feelings really hers or are outside (or inside) issues affecting them...

That process CAN be done gently and respectfully by a loving parent or by a qualified therapist. That is NOT the same as disowning them, calling them a freak, or kicking them out to the street. Why, especially as a parent, would this be the *one* area that you don't do that?  Ask any questions to help your child process?  It makes no sense.  

Edited February 2, 2019 by goldberry

[Pen]

Nm

Edited February 2, 2019 by Pen

[Liz CA]

Stella, I am so glad you got this referral to this social worker and did not allow yourself to be pressured into something you felt was not quite right at the time.

[Guest]

@StellaM you amaze me. I don’t know that I could have done what you did with such outstanding presence of mind. I wish more parents were handling things the way you describe and I wish more mental health professionals were sympathetic in approach. 

[maize]

On 2/2/2019 at 5:04 AM, LMD said:

Gah! What the heck do those pictures represent? If you have an hourglass figure and wear dresses you are one gender and if you have less of a waist you are another gender and if you wear pants but have hips you are yet another gender and if you have super broad shoulders you are another gender?

I mean, I know that isn't actually what they are trying to portray (it can't be, right?) but what do they think they are doing? "I know, let's make a whole bunch of stereotype boxes and tell kids they have to figure out which stereotype they fit!"

ETA also what is with the "masculine" gender presentations being at the top of the scale? We rate things all the time on scales with low number being bad and high numbers being good. Who wants to be a 1 when you can be a 10 or 12? Again, I'm sure that wasn't a conscious intention but it's not that hard to think about the implications of left to right numbered rating scales. 

Edited February 3, 2019 by maize

[maize]

17 minutes ago, OKBud said:

 

Woman= femme

Man= masc/butch

And those in between don't get to be either man or woman...

Is this where current focus on self determined identity is going--the creation of lots of narrowly defined boxes that kids have to choose between in order to determine who they are?

 

[EmseB]

7 minutes ago, OKBud said:

 

Sometimes.

Other times, the idea is that you can be anything you want to be, any time you want to be it, but simply saying it is so.

These two outlooks are in opposition to one another. 

 

Existence before essence coming home to roost, maybe? All of this kind of makes my brain hurt.

[Pen]

Where was that gender identity thing?  A classroom?  And what was the other thing on a spectrum that is alluded to in upper left corner?

and do the bottom corners depict Barbie for the girl 1 side and GI Joe for the boy 12 side?

so maybe this is meant to explain things to children at the Barbie and GI Joe play stage?

 

 

[MercyA]

I've seen reference in this discussion and others to a conflict between the transgender community and feminists. What's up with that? I know I'm uninformed. 

[Bluegoat]

2 hours ago, maize said:

And those in between don't get to be either man or woman...

Is this where current focus on self determined identity is going--the creation of lots of narrowly defined boxes that kids have to choose between in order to determine who they are?

 

 

One of the things I've wondered about is why there is this sense that whatever people see as their "identity" corresponds to something like an internal essence?  I mean, it seems self-evident to me that people can build their identity around all kinds of things that are completely made up, or false, or just weird cultural phenomena.  Which isn't necessarily a problem, but things like that can't be about our essential nature, can they?  There are people that feel that way about politics, or a sport or team, or going to comicons and dressing up and playing RPGs.  Or national identity.  Heck, my Orangeman  great-grandfather was very invested in his Scottish identity - (he didn't live to find out that was only a few generations, he was actually Irish, from a Catholic family, further back.

I see people talking about identity in this as it can only mean some sort of biological based phenomena, with the assumption seeming to be that is what identity is.  But I am not sure where that comes from or why it seems self-evident to people.  Is it because they are just thinking in terms of homosexuality?

[katilac]

3 hours ago, maize said:

Gah! What the heck do those pictures represent?  

 

And what is #7 doing? 😂

 

[unsinkable]

11 minutes ago, katilac said:

 

And what is #7 doing? 😂

 

Orange Man Bad

[Pen]

1 hour ago, katilac said:

 

And what is #7 doing? 😂

 

 

Holding its arms in the girl arm  position?

[Bluegoat]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

Holding its arms in the girl arm  position?

 

Maybe they imagine they are wearing a skirt?

[maize]

I'm a girl, guess I have to walk with my arms out from now on.

Edited February 3, 2019 by maize

[MercyA]

Orange person is all like, "What the heck is going on here?"

[EmseB]

3 hours ago, Bluegoat said:

 

One of the things I've wondered about is why there is this sense that whatever people see as their "identity" corresponds to something like an internal essence?  I mean, it seems self-evident to me that people can build their identity around all kinds of things that are completely made up, or false, or just weird cultural phenomena.  Which isn't necessarily a problem, but things like that can't be about our essential nature, can they?  There are people that feel that way about politics, or a sport or team, or going to comicons and dressing up and playing RPGs.  Or national identity.  Heck, my Orangeman  great-grandfather was very invested in his Scottish identity - (he didn't live to find out that was only a few generations, he was actually Irish, from a Catholic family, further back.

I see people talking about identity in this as it can only mean some sort of biological based phenomena, with the assumption seeming to be that is what identity is.  But I am not sure where that comes from or why it seems self-evident to people.  Is it because they are just thinking in terms of homosexuality?

I may be off-base here, but from a strict materialist view point seems to preclude anything but biology, right? Where else would anything that is 'us' come from?

[Pen]

37 minutes ago, EmseB said:

I may be off-base here, but from a strict materialist view point seems to preclude anything but biology, right? Where else would anything that is 'us' come from?

 

I guess it’s still biological but how about 

Gut microbiome?  Little inner creatures who want us to hold our arms out a certain way or depict a group of silhouettes doing so.  

[Pen]

2 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

it's an 'educational' tool, used in classrooms in the UK, by Mermaids, an organisation in favour of SRS on minors - the founder took her son to an Asian country before he turned 16, for an orchiectomy, penectomy and neovaginal construction surgery, to get around the ban on such surgery before 18 in the UK.  A prominent new, young politician recently tweeted in favor of a fund raising effort for this organisation, after government funding (via Lottery) was paused due to concerns around their ethics. 

Yes, the more femme (Barbie) you are, the more you are girl/woman, the more GI Joe (masc) you are, the more you are boy/man.

So on this chart, my dd1, for example, is non-binary masc, coming in at 7, though she's growing her hair now, so that takes her down to 5 ? making her non-binary-femme. It's ridiculous.

 

 

Eeeeeek! 

I sent op a pm about something I encountered in our state at emotional counseling center (having gone there totally not in regard to any sort of gender issue), but where posters and so on were promoting trans matters .  This uk thing sounds even worse.  

[DesertBlossom]

On 2/2/2019 at 5:04 AM, LMD said:

I'd say I'm usually about a 4. Unless I'm digging holes, trimming trees or playing in my worm bin, then I probably lean more towards a 5 or 6.  Last time I got a flat tire I abandoned the car in a parking lot, walked home and pretended to be a 3 until my husband could get home and change the tire for me. The closest I've ever been to a 1 was probably on my wedding day thanks to my fancy hair and acrylic nails, but I wore ballet flats instead of heels, so still probably more like a 2. The most "woman" I've ever felt was probably while in the throes of labor delivering each of my children, but that can't be defined with a number. I just call that "badass."

[maize]

7 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

The thing is, even if this were true (and there is zero evidence for gut microbiome being involved in ROGD! the topic of this thread), holding out your arms a certain way - being a boy who wants to wear a skirt -  says nothing about someone's sex. And embracing the identities of these kids with a rapid onset gender dysphoria, make no mistake, leads directly to messing about with their sexed characteristics and sexual and repro functions. Otherwise blockers and cross sex hormones wouldn't be on the table. 

Geez, in some cultures it is normal for boys to wear skirts - there is nothing hard wired about this stuff - at the church 2 min walk from me, boys and men are in skirts every Sunday. 

 

Skirts and robes have been the most common clothing item for both men and women through most of human history in most cultures.

The idea that clothing style has anything whatsoever to do with actually being male or female is ridiculous, aside from minor matters of fit.

[maize]

2 minutes ago, DesertBlossom said:

I'd say I'm usually about a 4. Unless I'm digging holes, trimming trees or playing in my worm bin, then I probably lean more towards a 5 or 6.  Last time I got a flat tire I abandoned the car in a parking lot, walked home and pretended to be a 3 until my husband could get home and change the tire for me. The closest I've ever been to a 1 was probably on my wedding day thanks to my fancy hair and acrylic nails, but I wore ballet flats instead of heels, so still probably more like a 2. The most "woman" I've ever felt was probably while in the throes of labor delivering each of my children, but that can't be defined with a number. I just call that "badass."

Yeah ain't nothing dainty, prim, OR sex-object-y (looking at you Barbie...) about giving birth--and definitely nothing more woman-ly.

[Pen]

26 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

The thing is, even if this were true (and there is zero evidence for gut microbiome being involved in ROGD! the topic of this thread), holding out your arms a certain way - being a boy who wants to wear a skirt -  says nothing about someone's sex. And embracing the identities of these kids with a rapid onset gender dysphoria, make no mistake, leads directly to messing about with their sexed characteristics and sexual and repro functions. Otherwise blockers and cross sex hormones wouldn't be on the table. 

 

 

What is ROGD! acronym for?

 

Generally, I agree with you.

 

I also think there may be some things going on now of an environmental nature whether endogenous or exogenous that may be affecting bodies and brains differently than in times past.

For example: 

my dc’s music teacher commented that there are almost no boys now who can sing baritone parts compared to in his earlier years of teaching  (That is, in our high school, and others this teacher works with,  used to be about half the boys could sing in baritone range with a few who could do bass and the rest tenor..  now most are in tenor with a few who can go down to baritone, and no bass)    I think that seems more significant than wearing skirt or pants.  

And there seem to be changes in animals especially aquatic ones in our area different (or in much higher numbers)  than once was 

 

Edited February 3, 2019 by Pen
Clarity

[LMD]

5 hours ago, MercyA said:

I've seen reference in this discussion and others to a conflict between the transgender community and feminists. What's up with that? I know I'm uninformed. 

 

Yes, because in feminist theory, women and girls are oppressed due to their biology (not their feminine essence) - females are recognised as those humans of the class that produces ova and are treated as such from birth. Or from before birth these days, which is why there's 120 million missing girls in the world due to femicide. 

'Gender' is a word that feminist theorists used to describe the hierarchy, the tool that reinforces female subjugation. Masculine and feminine stereotypes are how this hierarchy is enforced, that's why males who don't perform masculinity well enough are targeted too.

So, unsurprisingly, a lot of feminists have a real problem with an ideology that codifies gender and elevates it to a higher importance than physical sex. That's one reason why being called 'cisgender' is so offensive, we don't identify with our stereotypes or subjugation.

That's just a simple version, I'm not a feminist academic. One of my issues with transgender ideology (NOT with trans people) is that they have yet to present an explanation of what gender or gender identity is beyond 'feeling' or stereotypes we thought we left behind in the 80s. 

The other main issue is not with transwomen per se, but with the ideology that relies solely on a person's self identification to determine their gender, which then overrides their sex in accessing female only spaces - like prisons. Some of those spaces feminists fought extremely hard to create (like rape/DV crisis centres). This is really getting off topic so I won't say much else here.

 

6 hours ago, Pen said:

Where was that gender identity thing?  A classroom?  And what was the other thing on a spectrum that is alluded to in upper left corner?

and do the bottom corners depict Barbie for the girl 1 side and GI Joe for the boy 12 side?

so maybe this is meant to explain things to children at the Barbie and GI Joe play

It's a slide used in training adults, like teachers, social workers, police officers...

[Bluegoat]

2 hours ago, StellaM said:

 

The org who use this poster are also connected with a doctor in the UK who was just fined quite a lot for inappropriate prescribing of hormones to minors. So....not really an org with great ethics, and they shouldn't be in schools at all. 

 

Something that I have really noticed looking at how Mermaids has become the go-to group to consult with in the UK, for business, schools, etc, trying to figure out what to tell people - is what a bad idea it is to just hand over this stuff to lobby groups.  It seems natural and when you like what they are doing, it seems right - but there really is so much potential for it to go wrong.  But it seems to be the way things are done now, and there is a lot of back-lash if you don't treat these types of advocacy organisations as the experts.

[EmseB]

57 minutes ago, StellaM said:

 

I think Education Departments should design their own in-house training materials,if training is required/mandated, and make sure the materials are evidence based.

 

 

But those Ed departments don't exist in a vacuum, so where do they get their info from? In the US you could work for an advocacy group and then get hired by a government agency to write the curriculum. And...this is especially a problem if evidence is hard to come by and/or considered bigoted or whatever else. I mean we're seeing all of this break down in universities where the evidence should be created in large part, but studies are being suppressed or just not conducted because they don't reach the right conclusions.