Article on Shinto and Marie Kondo...What White, Western Folks Don't Understand About Tidying Up

[umsami]

I thought this was really interesting and I learned a lot.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/marie-kondo-white-western-audineces_us_5c47859be4b025aa26bde77c?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000046&utm_campaign=hp_fb_pages&ir=Entertainment&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=women_fb&fbclid=IwAR2OREEa0k368Nzvd4TYst4ALszHjF5zwTbUP8gs_LomSDab3ZLX-ZkEQOM’

I'm using my mother as an example, but it’s cultural to imbue objects with a sort of dignity. Japanese culture, like any, is not monolithic, but the expectation to respect where you live and work — and therefore other people — is ingrained into many Japanese households that practice Shinto traditions. Treasuring what you have; treating the objects you own as not disposable, but valuable, no matter their actual monetary worth; and creating displays so you can value each individual object are all essentially Shinto ways of living. Even if you don’t have the space for shelves of books or can’t afford a dresser with enough drawers, make what you have work for you, instead of being unhappy that you don’t have more.

 

"

[Jean in Newcastle]

Tons of Japanese households are cramped with lots of clutter. 

[EMS83]

I must have picked up some Japanese tendencies somewhere!!  I'm constantly telling the kids, "If we don't love it enough to take care of it, then maybe we need to give it away to someone who will!"  😄

Edited January 24, 2019 by CES2005

[Jean in Newcastle]

1 hour ago, WendyAndMilo said:

Are those households practicing Shintoism??

Some are.  But most Japanese do not practice pure Shintoism.  They practice a bit of Shintoism, a bit of Buddhism and a lot of Atheism.  There is a saying, "Born Shinto, die Buddhist".  Shinto shrines are still part of the culture esp. at certain times of the year.  But funerals tend to be Buddhist.  And in modern times, weddings are often "Christian" - or what they would say is Christian and we would just say is "Western".  But strict adherents to either Shintoism or Buddhism is more rare.  Strict adherents to Christianity are also rare but if someone is Christian, the nature of Christianity means that they don't tend to practice both Christianity and something else in the sense that Shintoism and Buddhism does, because neither of those are exclusive in the same way as Christianity. 

[happi duck]

14 hours ago, Jean in Newcastle said:

Tons of Japanese households are cramped with lots of clutter. 

I think this is how Marie Kondo ended up so sought after.

[Storygirl]

People can be quick to dismiss, reject, or even mock things that seem strange or unfamiliar. I'm not convinced that that is automatically racism or a cultural attack. I am not hooked into social media, other than this site, so there may very well be criticisms of her methods that are culturally insensitive. But I also think that it is possible to reject a philosophical premise (such as the animism that seems odd and is linked to Kondo's Shindo religion) and not be racist.

I immediately recognized that there was an underlying religious principal when I first heard about her method, but it may not be evident to some people. For some people, talking to possessions just strikes them as weird. It's okay to think things are weird and does not mean that someone is racist. There is, of course, a line that can be crossed into cultural insensitivity or racism, and perhaps some responses to her methods have crossed that line.

I have seen some episodes of the show. I have not read the book. As a Christian, I am uncomfortable with the animism, though I can understand being thankful for my possessions and how they have blessed me. Although I reject her underlying philosophy and consider some of her teachings strange, I don't believe that response is racist. And still think I could learn some things from her about organization, while not accepting the whole package she is presenting.

 

[PrincessMommy]

41 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

People can be quick to dismiss, reject, or even mock things that seem strange or unfamiliar. I'm not convinced that that is automatically racism or a cultural attack. I am not hooked into social media, other than this site, so there may very well be criticisms of her methods that are culturally insensitive. But I also think that it is possible to reject a philosophical premise (such as the animism that seems odd and is linked to Kondo's Shindo religion) and not be racist.

I immediately recognized that there was an underlying religious principal when I first heard about her method, but it may not be evident to some people. For some people, talking to possessions just strikes them as weird. It's okay to think things are weird and does not mean that someone is racist. There is, of course, a line that can be crossed into cultural insensitivity or racism, and perhaps some responses to her methods have crossed that line.

I have seen some episodes of the show. I have not read the book. As a Christian, I am uncomfortable with the animism, though I can understand being thankful for my possessions and how they have blessed me. Although I reject her underlying philosophy and consider some of her teachings strange, I don't believe that response is racist. And still think I could learn some things from her about organization, while not accepting the whole package she is presenting.

 

I think this is quite well said.   I had not made the connection to Shintoism before reading that article.  Then it all clicked.  

I read her book (couldn't finish it though)... what I found strange about *her* was her stories about her childhood and how she couldn't wait to get home and organize her mom's drawers or her parent's bathroom.. etc.  That struck me as an obsessive tendency and not something I necessarily wanted to emulate.  That turned me off of *her* book.  I don't necessarily disagree with her *method* of going through by type (clothes, kitchen, etc.) and decluttering, but I found her off- putting because of the above mentioned.  But, bully for her for making a living off of her obsession... that is commendable.    She has been able to take something that could be debilitating in her life and succeeded with it.

I found her tv show to be too saccharine sweet for my taste.  At least she is - maybe the family's she works with are not. 

Edited January 24, 2019 by PrincessMommy

[Guest]

This article expresses something different from my experience. I grant you, I have seen some FB memes making a joke of “keeping no more than 30 books” (and I have participated by joking back) and other jokey memes saying things like, “My electric bill did not spark joy so I threw it in the trash.” Despite these jokey memes, I have seen largely great commendation for Marie Kondo and her book and methods. Some people don’t like one or two aspects of it; maybe they can’t see thanking their shoes for carrying them around or waking up the closet when it’s time to tidy, but I definitely haven’t seen anything close to vitriol directed at her or her ideas about tidying.

FWIW, I myself wrote a vitriolic review of Rachel Hollis’ idiotic “Girl, Wash Your Face” book. It is my most frquently liked and commented review on GoodReads. A lot of people besides me hated that book. I also know a lot of people who mocked Martha Stewart on the regular in her before-prison era like, “Yeah, right! I’m going to save, paint and glue together ninety billion pistachio shells into nature-art napkin rings for our Independence Day party!” In my experience, people hate on Hollis (me too!) or hated on Martha way more than on Marie Kondo. 

[PrincessMommy]

36 minutes ago, Quill said:

This article expresses something different from my experience. I grant you, I have seen some FB memes making a joke of “keeping no more than 30 books” (and I have participated by joking back) and other jokey memes saying things like, “My electric bill did not spark joy so I threw it in the trash.” Despite these jokey memes, I have seen largely great commendation for Marie Kondo and her book and methods. Some people don’t like one or two aspects of it; maybe they can’t see thanking their shoes for carrying them around or waking up the closet when it’s time to tidy, but I definitely haven’t seen anything close to vitriol directed at her or her ideas about tidying.

FWIW, I myself wrote a vitriolic review of Rachel Hollis’ idiotic “Girl, Wash Your Face” book. It is my most frquently liked and commented review on GoodReads. A lot of people besides me hated that book. I also know a lot of people who mocked Martha Stewart on the regular in her before-prison era like, “Yeah, right! I’m going to save, paint and glue together ninety billion pistachio shells into nature-art napkin rings for our Independence Day party!” In my experience, people hate on Hollis (me too!) or hated on Martha way more than on Marie Kondo. 

That's funny.  My most "liked" review on Goodreads is my panned review of "The Shack"..  I think people love to hate.  And honestly, I find it much easier to write a review of a book I dislike than one I do like.  I'm certain that isn't a good thing.

Edited January 24, 2019 by PrincessMommy

[lavender's green]

30 minutes ago, PrincessMommy said:

I think this is quite well said.   I had not made the connection to Shintoism before reading that article.  Then it all clicked.  

I read her book (couldn't finish it though)... what I found strange about *her* was her stories about her childhood and how she couldn't wait to get home and organize her mom's drawers or her parent's bathroom.. etc.  That struck me as an obsessive tendency and not something I necessarily wanted to emulate.  That turned me off of *her* book.  I don't necessarily disagree with her *method* of going through by type (clothes, kitchen, etc.) and decluttering, but I found her off- putting because of the above mentioned.  But, bully for her for making a living off of her obsession... that is commendable.    She has been able to take something that could be debilitating in her life and succeeded with it.

I found her tv show to be too saccharine sweet for my taste.  At least she is - maybe the family's she works with are not. 

I think that part of her book sets the stage for the rest of her method. She said she wants to go back and smack herself for overstepping those boundaries, which is why she's so big on everyone tidying their own things. She also recognized that constantly purging and/or re-organizing one's possessions is unhealthy (and I completely agree), which is why she advocates a one-time approach.

I know several people who stopped reading there, which is a shame, because she obviously grew in a lot of ways, and it takes a big person to publicly talk in such detail about how badly they've screwed up in the past.

[Jean in Newcastle]

A couple more thoughts:

I have nothing against Marie Kondo and her method but she’s not the only organizer out there-Japanese or “Western “. 

She is immensely popular in the US so while some might mock her, she isn’t exactly reviled here. 

She actually isn’t as popular in Japan. 

Japanese children clean the cafeteria because they are assigned the job.

Japanese neighbors clean the streets because the block captain tells you to. We had a rotation for weeding by the road. No one was out there because we really wanted to be there. (At least none of the neighbors I heard complaining.). 

Most people in most cultures want some order and cleanliness in their lives. Homes in Japan have gotten a little bit bigger than they were in my childhood but if you are sleeping in the same room that you eat in then it does make sense to move your futon to a closet for the day. And to have room in the closet for it. (Now more people have dedicated bedrooms). 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Also to break the over generalization of "All" of Japan being clean and orderly.  That is a stereotype as much as any other because like any culture, people run the gamut from exceptionally neat and tidy to hoarders.  And like most cultures, most people are somewhere in between. 

https://resources.realestate.co.jp/living/messiest-houses-in-japan/

[shawthorne44]

I used to know two families who had lived there.   They both came home with all these amazing, expensive Japanese antiques that they'd gotten for free from the curb.    They noticed the opposite of what the article claims.  

[Guest]

1 hour ago, PrincessMommy said:

That's funny.  My most "liked" review on Goodreads is my panned review of "The Shack"..  I think people love to hate.  And honestly, I find it much easier to write a review of a book I dislike than one I do like.  I'm certain that isn't a good thing.

I found it interesting as well. I have five-starred numerous books but I never get a comment and only rarely get a like. But the one book I was so mad I spent time and money on: well over 50 likes, maybe up to a hundred by now. And more comments than any other review I have posted. 

I guess it is what they call the “negative bias.” People are more excited by bad things than good things. 

[Bluegoat]

30 minutes ago, OKBud said:

I dunno. That book was pretty bad, to have SUCH! high ratings from most people inclined to rate it. At a certain point it's more "hold the phone, this is awful" than fixating on something that's bad. 

 

Yeah, when everyone is going gaga over a book like THe Shack when it first appears, it can feel like almost a relief for someone else to confirm that your impression that it was an unmittigated disaster is correct.

[Andromeda]

Kids cleaning schools or at least classrooms is not unique to Japan. When I was in school, we had to clean our classroom from about middle school age onward. When I went to sleep away camp, we had to help in the cafeteria - set out dishes for each meal, load and unload huge commercial dishwashers, use bread cutting machine to cut bread loaves into slices, etc. About ten kids helped in the cafeteria each day, with set rotation. It was expected, and we all enjoyed it very much. It made us feel useful and grown up. I think that was from about age 12 or so. 

While my experience is admittedly decades removed from the present, there are schools in the U.S. (as of 2015 at least) that have students help with daily cleaning chores. Here is an example. 

 

 

[MercyA]

7 hours ago, Quill said:

FWIW, I myself wrote a vitriolic review of Rachel Hollis’ idiotic “Girl, Wash Your Face” book. It is my most frequently liked and commented review on GoodReads

LOL, Quill, your review was hilarious! I loved it. 😊

[Frances]

4 hours ago, RosemaryAndThyme said:

Kids cleaning schools or at least classrooms is not unique to Japan. When I was in school, we had to clean our classroom from about middle school age onward. When I went to sleep away camp, we had to help in the cafeteria - set out dishes for each meal, load and unload huge commercial dishwashers, use bread cutting machine to cut bread loaves into slices, etc. About ten kids helped in the cafeteria each day, with set rotation. It was expected, and we all enjoyed it very much. It made us feel useful and grown up. I think that was from about age 12 or so. 

While my experience is admittedly decades removed from the present, there are schools in the U.S. (as of 2015 at least) that have students help with daily cleaning chores. Here is an example. 

 

 

When I was in elementary school, the sixth graders did all of the lunch clean-up everyday. We loved it, and couldn’t wait for our turn to spray the trays and run the large dishwashers. Our classroom was right next to the cafeteria, and the cooks would always bring us any extra food.

[Condessa]

Very interesting to learn about the shinto roots of Kondo’s methods.  It seemed very strange, though, that the author said that the memes and backlash against her methods used “starkly xenophobic terms” and later “xenophobic language”, but she never gave any examples of that, they just contained general rudeness/mockery.  

I also wasn’t actually aware that general use for the term ‘people of color’ included Japanese in the definition.  Many Japanese are fairer-complexioned than many “white” people—most of my Japanese cousins are fairer than my siblings and I.  So, does the term just mean not-European ancestry?  

[Storygirl]

https://theithacan.org/columns/the-term-people-of-color-includes-asian-americans/

Anyone who is not white.

[gardenmom5]

5 hours ago, Michelle Conde said:

Very interesting to learn about the shinto roots of Kondo’s methods.  It seemed very strange, though, that the author said that the memes and backlash against her methods used “starkly xenophobic terms” and later “xenophobic language”, but she never gave any examples of that, they just contained general rudeness/mockery.  

I also wasn’t actually aware that general use for the term ‘people of color’ included Japanese in the definition.  Many Japanese are fairer-complexioned than many “white” people—most of my Japanese cousins are fairer than my siblings and I.  So, does the term just mean not-European ancestry?  

basically.

I knew a woman whose dd was frequently harassed by a gang of Hispanic girls. they were using racist language against her because she was "white". . . .  the dd's father was off-the-boat Spanish, and she was darker than them.  

but her father came from Europe . . . 

[Carrie12345]

I didn’t see the criticisms as racist, but it wouldn’t exactly surprise me to know that element was there.

I happen to be a little obsessive about organizers right now, and the majority do get major criticisms for, well, basically being “too” good at their thing in one way or another. 

I appreciate the Shinto influences because I can relate to them in a secular/environmental/personal way that gets to a similar end result. But I still found it amusing enough to laugh at her 30 book suggestion (not rule.) I mean, dh isn’t the most voracious reader in the house and he has about 50 in our bedroom... where the fewest books are kept... after he purged a bunch. The rest of us would be doomed if we took that as a rule. So I find it funny. My books make me happy, my Kindle doesn’t, and that’s okay. No bad feelings here!

[madteaparty]

15 hours ago, RosemaryAndThyme said:

Kids cleaning schools or at least classrooms is not unique to Japan. When I was in school, we had to clean our classroom from about middle school age onward. When I went to sleep away camp, we had to help in the cafeteria - set out dishes for each meal, load and unload huge commercial dishwashers, use bread cutting machine to cut bread loaves into slices, etc. About ten kids helped in the cafeteria each day, with set rotation. It was expected, and we all enjoyed it very much. It made us feel useful and grown up. I think that was from about age 12 or so. 

While my experience is admittedly decades removed from the present, there are schools in the U.S. (as of 2015 at least) that have students help with daily cleaning chores. Here is an example. 

 

 

We live near a Bruderhof community (basically, Christian communists) and considered sending DD to school there even though we are not Christian (I love their values). The kids clean the schools. They also visit with the dying elderly, etc. 

[ktgrok]

I remember having clean up duty in elementary school. It rotated through the classes. You either wiped down tables or you mopped floors. 

[shawthorne44]

6 hours ago, gardenmom5 said:

basically.

I knew a woman whose dd was frequently harassed by a gang of Hispanic girls. they were using racist language against her because she was "white". . . .  the dd's father was off-the-boat Spanish, and she was darker than them.  

but her father came from Europe . . . 

A friend of mine in college wasn't allowed to join the Hispanic group.   His parents were from Spain, he was born in what had been Hispaniola.

[Lady Florida.]

On 1/24/2019 at 10:07 AM, Storygirl said:

People can be quick to dismiss, reject, or even mock things that seem strange or unfamiliar. I'm not convinced that that is automatically racism or a cultural attack. I am not hooked into social media, other than this site, so there may very well be criticisms of her methods that are culturally insensitive. But I also think that it is possible to reject a philosophical premise (such as the animism that seems odd and is linked to Kondo's Shindo religion) and not be racist.

I immediately recognized that there was an underlying religious principal when I first heard about her method, but it may not be evident to some people. For some people, talking to possessions just strikes them as weird. It's okay to think things are weird and does not mean that someone is racist. There is, of course, a line that can be crossed into cultural insensitivity or racism, and perhaps some responses to her methods have crossed that line.

 

 

I agree with all of the above and don't think rejecting her method is racist or anti-Shinto. Quite honestly if a Christian organizing expert wrote a book that said you should hold each item and ask Jesus whether you should keep it or toss it, I'd think that's just as silly as Kondo's thank your bra for its service if it doesn't spark joy.

On 1/24/2019 at 10:48 AM, PrincessMommy said:

I think this is quite well said.   I had not made the connection to Shintoism before reading that article.  Then it all clicked.  

I read her book (couldn't finish it though)... what I found strange about *her* was her stories about her childhood and how she couldn't wait to get home and organize her mom's drawers or her parent's bathroom.. etc.  That struck me as an obsessive tendency and not something I necessarily wanted to emulate.  That turned me off of *her* book.  I don't necessarily disagree with her *method* of going through by type (clothes, kitchen, etc.) and decluttering, but I found her off- putting because of the above mentioned.  But, bully for her for making a living off of her obsession... that is commendable.    She has been able to take something that could be debilitating in her life and succeeded with it.

I found her tv show to be too saccharine sweet for my taste.  At least she is - maybe the family's she works with are not. 

I haven't seen the show and I couldn't finish the book. In addition to being turned off by the above I was also turned off by her "my method is the only right method" attitude. 

On 1/24/2019 at 11:26 AM, lavender's green said:

I think that part of her book sets the stage for the rest of her method. She said she wants to go back and smack herself for overstepping those boundaries, which is why she's so big on everyone tidying their own things. She also recognized that constantly purging and/or re-organizing one's possessions is unhealthy (and I completely agree), which is why she advocates a one-time approach.

 

That may be true but if it is it also shows that her method is more about her obsessive tendencies and less about her Shinto beliefs.

On 1/24/2019 at 10:53 AM, Quill said:

I also know a lot of people who mocked Martha Stewart on the regular in her before-prison era like, “Yeah, right! I’m going to save, paint and glue together ninety billion pistachio shells into nature-art napkin rings for our Independence Day party!” 

Yes. Much of Martha Stewart's heyday came before the rise of social media so the ridicule wasn't as obvious but it was definitely there. 

On 1/24/2019 at 3:37 PM, RosemaryAndThyme said:

Kids cleaning schools or at least classrooms is not unique to Japan. When I was in school, we had to clean our classroom from about middle school age onward. When I went to sleep away camp, we had to help in the cafeteria - set out dishes for each meal, load and unload huge commercial dishwashers, use bread cutting machine to cut bread loaves into slices, etc. About ten kids helped in the cafeteria each day, with set rotation. It was expected, and we all enjoyed it very much. It made us feel useful and grown up. I think that was from about age 12 or so. 

While my experience is admittedly decades removed from the present, there are schools in the U.S. (as of 2015 at least) that have students help with daily cleaning chores. Here is an example. 

 

 

I remember it being an honor to be chosen to help clean the cafeteria. My experience is also decades removed from the present day.

Edited January 26, 2019 by Lady Florida.

[Negin]

On 1/24/2019 at 9:30 PM, StellaM said:

I think the 'white' in the title is gratuitious. 

It can be somewhat bigoted to essentialise an entire ethnicity as either deficient or, conversely, as peculiarly 'noble'.

But I still enjoyed the article, and I wanted to know more about the author's mother.

 

 

Those were my thoughts also. Can you imagine the outrage if the title was naming another color or ethnic group? Why is it okay to title something about whites and westerners not understanding? If that's okay, then surely it should be okay to say it about other groups "not understanding". 

[Condessa]

I am musing on the irony of this, in light of the fact that Japanese culture is generally far more accepting of racism and xenophobia than most Western cultures nowadays.

[maize]

I don't understand how not understanding a different cultural perspective is racist. Culture and race are not interchangeable and a person's religion and culture are not their skin color.

Presumptions of cultural superiority, complete inability to grasp cultural differences, unawareness of religious and cultural frameworks outside one's own, in-group/out-group biases--these are all real things in and of themselves and labeling them racist does no one any favors.

Is it racism if we look down at someone from a Western European country for not shaving their legs or not showering every day or is it cultural snobbery?

Is it racism if we mock a Seventh Day Adventist for refusing to let their kid play sports on Saturday or is it lack of religious awareness or religious intolerance?

[Bluegoat]

29 minutes ago, maize said:

I don't understand how not understanding a different cultural perspective is racist. Culture and race are not interchangeable and a person's religion and culture are not their skin color.

Presumptions of cultural superiority, complete inability to grasp cultural differences, unawareness of religious and cultural frameworks outside one's own, in-group/out-group biases--these are all real things in and of themselves and labeling them racist does no one any favors.

Is it racism if we look down at someone from a Western European country for not shaving their legs or not showering every day or is it cultural snobbery?

Is it racism if we mock a Seventh Day Adventist for refusing to let their kid play sports on Saturday or is it lack of religious awareness or religious intolerance?

 

I agree with all of that.  I think people are really identifying two things they are uncomfortable with:

One is that it's not really the case that Japanese people have no issues with accumulation, tidiness, or consumerism.  I suspect most people would realise that if they stopped to consider it, but it maybe is helpful to this topic to make it explicit those things may be larger than cultural context.  

The second is that I think the title probably should have said "western" rather than "white".  There is something a little - I don't know what word to use, but not a positive one - about implying that somehow "white people" are the ones incapable of understanding this other cultural context, when being white has zero to do with it.  What's the implication supposed to be with that?  Anyone who comes from  different cultural context, whether their ethnic origins are in Europe, Africa, North America, or elsewhere, is going to be less able to implicitly get that context. (And, I also think it's not impossible for people to be able to come to really appreciate and understand new ideas from other cultures.)  By the same token, someone who is not Asian who grows up in Japan well have those ideas as part of their cultural consciousness.

[Valley Girl]

I haven't jumped on the Marie Kondo bandwagon (at least not yet). But I was put off by the title enough that my initial reaction was that I just didn't care to read the article. I dunno. I think I'm just getting weary of what seems to be the media's incessant need to "educate" me out of my lazy, ignorant, white, Western mindset. I think there are ways to approach things that are more uplifting than the constant finger-wagging. (I'm fully cognizant of the fact that this may just be my issue at this point and that I probably shouldn't even be posting today.)

[DawnM]

On 1/25/2019 at 9:27 AM, Ktgrok said:

I remember having clean up duty in elementary school. It rotated through the classes. You either wiped down tables or you mopped floors. 

 

I grew up in boarding school.  We all had chores in addition to keeping our rooms clean.  One of the chores was to stoke the water heater with wood (fire burning).  If it didn't get stoked properly, everyone was angry because we had cold showers.  If it got over-stoked, the toilet water was hot too, and our butts got a steam bath when we used them! 🤣

[Storygirl]

On the show -- at least the three episodes that I have seen already -- we do not see Marie Kondo explain the religious or cultural underpinnings of her method.

Does she explain the influence of Shinto in her book? (I have not read it.)

If not, how could anyone be expected to understand? People are reacting to what they have had the opportunity to see and read, and if the spiritual philosophy is not identified, it's only to be expected that people won't get it.

[shawthorne44]

I read the Sparks Joy book.   I don't remember her even having the word 'Shinto' in there.  There is a bit of Animism in there, talking to your possessions, and referring to them to them as being 'tired'.   But, otherwise, it was straight-forward decluttering.  

She also talks about 'decluttering' her families possessions without their consent, in hindsight she thinks that was horrible.  So, it wasn't something that she got from her family.   It seems obvious that she is following her personal calling.   I mean how many 5-year-olds read organizing magazine articles?