Graduating college at 18 with a "co-chosen" major

[Ad astra]

 

 

Also, books like these make me pause because they cause good homeschooling parents to doubt the validity of their path. Don't do that. There is absolutely nothing wrong with an 18 year old graduating on a traditional timeline and attending college with other 18-19 year olds. It's OKAY! 

 

 

 

I don't think there is anyone who would doubt the validity of their path and blindly follow someone else's solely after reading a book about a different journey. Think most homeschooling parents know better than that. We encourage our kids to read biographies, autobiographies, memoirs, diaries, etc. because they provide valuable lessons in life depending on how you look at them. That's also why we are on this forum sharing ours though we all raise a different set of kids in a different situation. Think there is nothing wrong for sharing experiences and thoughts, whether they suit you or not, and one shouldn't be shamed for doing so.

 

The author's kids may have good intellectual genes but there is no doubt their parents' support and guidance played a big role in their achievements. I see a lot of people praise early success in sports despite the high pressure from competition and risks to get injury (for example, a 17-year-old snowborder Chloe Kim's story that moved many American hearts. Granted, she's talented but wouldn't have been where she is now without her parent's full-time focus on her.), but it's sad to see they quickly feel the need to be judgmental on early "academic" success. Not sure what's the difference. 

 

 

And I think his advice on choosing a practical major can be useful for some who don't have any strong interest nor know what to do with their life. I wasn't a math whiz growing up but it's my engineering degree which got me into a job and financially supported my family and myself during the Asian financial crisis in the late 90s.

[luuknam]

And I think his advice on choosing a practical major can be useful for some who don't have any strong interest nor know what to do with their life. 

 

 

I have nothing against practical majors, but the authors of this book apparently don't even think something like math is a practical major for a kid who wants to be a math professor. 

 

Also, there are plenty of people who think early pressure to become a sports star is crazy, bad, you name it. And yes, there are people who glom onto methods other people have tried as being the One Way. Should they? No. But that doesn't mean that people like that don't exist. 

[Matryoshka]

My oldest is quite smart. She does extremely well in school. However, she definitely didn't have the emotional maturity to handle college level classes at 14 years old. Just couldn't handle the pressure. There would have been tears every day. While she had the intellectiual maturity above her years, the emotional maturity to handle a college pace would have overwhelmed her. Don't even want to start talking about the social maturity.

 

Ironically, dd started at the CC at just-turned 15 because she couldn't handle the pressure of the local high school.  She was having panic attacks and tears.  She started CC because she didn't want to work with me (hence her trying the ps high school)  and she does do better with in-person classes.  She's up to 3-4 classes at a time now and plans to graduate high school with an AS (her idea, she loooves the idea of the guaranteed transfer of credits and guaranteed acceptance to a State U - again, for her that feels like way less pressure than high school).  Her grades have not always been stellar, but fortunately she's had enough classes where she did do well to balance things out.

 

She also finds it lower-pressure because she doesn't have to get up early in the morning, has ample down time between classes, and only has class 3-4 days a week. I have not had her take math there, though, because I do still worry about her properly studying for tests.  She does best with project-based classes.  She started concentrating in Graphic Design but has switched (very much her choice) to Business.  She's developed some good relationships with profs there, too.  She was talking to one yesterday about a possible independent study and told me that the prof said he gave kudos to her mom because I'm letting her handle all that on her own.  I am always there in her advisor appt and help her pick classes to make sure she's checking off the right boxes and check RateMyProf for her, but other than that I haven't talked to anyone at the CC, certainly not her profs.

 

She is also one of those kids who does not much like school and is not into academic pursuits, at least at this point.  She wants to be done with school and get working - so what someone else said about some kids not being able to handle the idea of years and years of school before 'real life' starts I think also applies to her.  

 

I very much think early CC is not for everyone, but it's not necessarily just for super-studious and super-mature students - honestly this has enabled her to minimize the academic classes and focus on more practical classes where she sees 'the point'.  This kid is actually my least studious and least emotionally mature at this age.  I honestly would never have guessed that this one would be the one of my three to get an AS by 18.  

[shawthorne44]

....

And I think his advice on choosing a practical major can be useful for some who don't have any strong interest nor know what to do with their life. I wasn't a math whiz growing up but it's my engineering degree which got me into a job and financially supported my family and myself during the Asian financial crisis in the late 90s.

 

I don't have a quibble with the practical major part.   Say the child has a burning desire to study Art History.   Under this plan, at 18 the child can start a Art History degree with a head-start like those that get an AA by 18.  Also with the practical major degree, the child could find a job with a company that pays tuition of employee's.  

[luuknam]

Also with the practical major degree, the child could find a job with a company that pays tuition of employee's.  

 

 

Which is how many companies these days? Seems to be getting rarer and rarer, and then often they require that it's "related to the job", so art history is out if you're an engineer, because it's not "related to the job". 

[luuknam]

Also, lots of engineers have deadlines, which can interfere with school. E.g. DW worked evenings, weekends, and holidays during December - we barely saw her (well, we saw her, because she worked from home a bunch, but, it was work, work, work). If she'd had an art history final during that time period, she would've had to either take it without studying, or not take it at all. 

 

ETA: which isn't an issue, since she's not interested in art history, and her company doesn't pay tuition anyway, and she found out years ago that she can't juggle a school and a job at the same time, but still... jobs that pay decently can't always just be combined with school, because the employer expects that your job is your #1 priority, and your school and GPA etc is your own problem.  

Edited February 2, 2018 by luuknam

[fairfarmhand]

Ironically, dd started at the CC at just-turned 15 because she couldn't handle the pressure of the local high school.  She was having panic attacks and tears.  She started CC because she didn't want to work with me (hence her trying the ps high school)  and she does do better with in-person classes.  She's up to 3-4 classes at a time now and plans to graduate high school with an AS (her idea, she loooves the idea of the guaranteed transfer of credits and guaranteed acceptance to a State U - again, for her that feels like way less pressure than high school).  Her grades have not always been stellar, but fortunately she's had enough classes where she did do well to balance things out.

 

She also finds it lower-pressure because she doesn't have to get up early in the morning, has ample down time between classes, and only has class 3-4 days a week. I have not had her take math there, though, because I do still worry about her properly studying for tests.  She does best with project-based classes.  She started concentrating in Graphic Design but has switched (very much her choice) to Business.  She's developed some good relationships with profs there, too.  She was talking to one yesterday about a possible independent study and told me that the prof said he gave kudos to her mom because I'm letting her handle all that on her own.  I am always there in her advisor appt and help her pick classes to make sure she's checking off the right boxes and check RateMyProf for her, but other than that I haven't talked to anyone at the CC, certainly not her profs.

 

She is also one of those kids who does not much like school and is not into academic pursuits, at least at this point.  She wants to be done with school and get working - so what someone else said about some kids not being able to handle the idea of years and years of school before 'real life' starts I think also applies to her.  

 

I very much think early CC is not for everyone, but it's not necessarily just for super-studious and super-mature students - honestly this has enabled her to minimize the academic classes and focus on more practical classes where she sees 'the point'.  This kid is actually my least studious and least emotionally mature at this age.  I honestly would never have guessed that this one would be the one of my three to get an AS by 18.  

 

For my kid, she has yet to master her perfectionism and drive. It was more so when she was younger. She would not have been able to go "ah...study all night long and get a 98 or do a reasonable amount of work for a 93...I'll take the 93 and keep my sanity." when she was 14-17. Even now she struggles with those kinds of mindsets. Must be the best...even if the cost is high. 

 

That was what I meant. Being the BEST is so important to her. She's getting better about not thinking that she has to prove something to the world. I don't think that early college would've been great for her. She constantly needs people to talk her down. 

 

Just our experience. 

 

My concern with these kinds of books is that some people think that they have to "keep up with the Joneses" in homeschooling. That's why I put things like this out there. 

 

I do know that early college is great for some kids, but if the author is purporting that it's a wonderful thing and attainable for everyone, I do raise an eyebrow and make sure that I mention that early college is not for everyone.

 

I think the same thing about early athletics. Not for everyone. Not at all. 

 

I hate the idea that we need to rush our kids through childhood and have them be the best. Average is alright. No big deal to have average ordinary kids.

[nixpix5]

I have nothing against practical majors, but the authors of this book apparently don't even think something like math is a practical major for a kid who wants to be a math professor.

 

Also, there are plenty of people who think early pressure to become a sports star is crazy, bad, you name it. And yes, there are people who glom onto methods other people have tried as being the One Way. Should they? No. But that doesn't mean that people like that don't exist.

Actually, he was fine with him being a math professor. What his concern was for his son was if he went and majored in this as an undergraduate degree, what if decided he didn't want to go to grad school? Then he has a bachelors that wasn't as lucrative for him in the long run. His guidance was to get a degree that would be lucrative if his son decided not to go further and if he did, then he could go to grad school to get his masters or PhD in math leading to becoming a math professor.

 

Not saying that is right or wrong, but that was his reasoning.

[nixpix5]

For my kid, she has yet to master her perfectionism and drive. It was more so when she was younger. She would not have been able to go "ah...study all night long and get a 98 or do a reasonable amount of work for a 93...I'll take the 93 and keep my sanity." when she was 14-17. Even now she struggles with those kinds of mindsets. Must be the best...even if the cost is high.

 

That was what I meant. Being the BEST is so important to her. She's getting better about not thinking that she has to prove something to the world. I don't think that early college would've been great for her. She constantly needs people to talk her down.

 

Just our experience.

 

My concern with these kinds of books is that some people think that they have to "keep up with the Joneses" in homeschooling. That's why I put things like this out there.

 

I do know that early college is great for some kids, but if the author is purporting that it's a wonderful thing and attainable for everyone, I do raise an eyebrow and make sure that I mention that early college is not for everyone.

 

I think the same thing about early athletics. Not for everyone. Not at all.

 

I hate the idea that we need to rush our kids through childhood and have them be the best. Average is alright. No big deal to have average ordinary kids.

This is speaking to your part about concern this leads to keeping up with the Jones'

 

I feel similarly about unschooling books. I know a number of unschoolers who have successfully peaked their child's interest and followed them successfully, leading to lovely, intelligent young people who love learning. I call this a win.

 

However, some of those books provide a license to many to neglect educating their children. One family I know do next to nothing and call themselves unschoolers. She is constantly quoting a book when people ask questions. Her kids sit on tech all day long.

 

My point is, any educational philosophy in the wrong hands can run amok. I have seen parents misinterpret and abuse the whole WTM philosophy. I think people who jump onto other people's bandwagons do this anyway because they do not trust their own instincts. They get fearful and try to imitate other people's success.

[Dmmetler]

DD and I were discussing the social side of things, and right now, she feels that she’s missing out less by being at the CC than she would by being homeschooled. That is, she gets some of the school stuff, like the campus parties (her campus seems to have some sort of lunchtime social gathering with free food a month),clubs, and so on, and she gets the homeschooled social stuff. She doesn’t have to choose one or the other.

 

She’s also very aware that she wouldn’t be a normal kid even if she went to the same school, etc. She’s tried enough times in the past to know that it just ends up boring her to Tears and it’s still a poor social fit. She’s very used to having to find her social friendships with close age peers separate from her academic colleagues and that those are often separate from the interest peers.

 

Now, when she really becomes interested in dating, she may have a different opinion :).

[luuknam]

Actually, he was fine with him being a math professor. What his concern was for his son was if he went and majored in this as an undergraduate degree, what if decided he didn't want to go to grad school? Then he has a bachelors that wasn't as lucrative for him in the long run. His guidance was to get a degree that would be lucrative if his son decided not to go further and if he did, then he could go to grad school to get his masters or PhD in math leading to becoming a math professor.

 

Not saying that is right or wrong, but that was his reasoning.

 

 

I get that. But a math degree is not going to doom somebody to a lifetime of poverty, even if they never go to grad school. That's the problem that I have with that. It's over-the-top and rigid thinking etc. 

[HS Mom in NC]

My middle had circles of friends outside of cc: homeschool friends, archery team friends who were a mix of a couple of homeschooled kids and kids from half a dozen different ps schools, and church friends who were a mix of homeschooled, private schooled and ps.  My oldest did too and socialized well with the freshman because she was only a year or two younger than most of them. She turned 18 Jan. 1, between her first and second semesters, so it wasn't a big deal.

[wapiti]

Actually, he was fine with him being a math professor. What his concern was for his son was if he went and majored in this as an undergraduate degree, what if decided he didn't want to go to grad school? Then he has a bachelors that wasn't as lucrative for him in the long run. His guidance was to get a degree that would be lucrative if his son decided not to go further and if he did, then he could go to grad school to get his masters or PhD in math leading to becoming a math professor.

 

Not saying that is right or wrong, but that was his reasoning.

 

FWIW, I think he has this exactly backwards.  In the long run, the professor job is likely less lucrative than the middle-aged person who has put those quantitative skills to good use in the business world.  It is the short run that might be challenging for the 18 y.o. kid with the BA/BS in math, because businesses in general may be skeptical of the young age.  Quantitative skills are in demand and that's where his myopia is disappointing for someone holding himself out as knowledgable about education/career paths.

[Corraleno]

The author's kids may have good intellectual genes but there is no doubt their parents' support and guidance played a big role in their achievements. I see a lot of people praise early success in sports despite the high pressure from competition and risks to get injury (for example, a 17-year-old snowborder Chloe Kim's story that moved many American hearts. Granted, she's talented but wouldn't have been where she is now without her parent's full-time focus on her.), but it's sad to see they quickly feel the need to be judgmental on early "academic" success. Not sure what's the difference.

Well, I don't know anyone who thinks it's a great idea to push kids hard in sports when they're really young — and I say that as the parent of an elite athlete who happens to be at a World Cup in Europe as I type this. But he didn't start young and he was never pushed; most of the elite athletes I know were dragging their parents along for the ride, not being pushed by them.

 

And I think the same thing applies to kids who are academically advanced; it's one thing if the child is pushing for it and the parent is following the child's lead, but it's very different when it's a parent deciding that all of their children are going to start college at 14, and have a BA/BS by 18 or 19, and only in a major approved by the parent. It's not the "early academic success" that people are questioning, it's the fact that the path this family takes is so parent-driven. I'm certainly not opposed to early college — I graduated HS at 16 and had my MA at 21, but every part of that was entirely my choice, and it's not something I would ever presume to "choose" for my kids.

[nixpix5]

FWIW, I think he has this exactly backwards. In the long run, the professor job is likely less lucrative than the middle-aged person who has put those quantitative skills to good use in the business world. It is the short run that might be challenging for the 18 y.o. kid with the BA/BS in math, because businesses in general may be skeptical of the young age. Quantitative skills are in demand and that's where his myopia is disappointing for someone holding himself out as knowledgable about education/career paths.

I actually agree with you completely. I have a friend who's husband is an actuary and has a math BS. He makes way more than my professor friends. The guy hired at my husband's lab who has a math BS and is their statistician makes good money too. There is a ton of flexibility in math. Plus, I are nothing wrong with being a high afeechool math teacher or not equating jobs to the most money to be had. I just was trying to make clear what the reasoning was on his part.

 

Again, if they were ready for college they still were only 14 year olds. My highschool diploma I gained during those years didn't provide me a lucrative leg up so if dad had them go a STEM route it still doesn't feel too horrible since they could have, at 18, done a 2nd bachelor's if so desired too. There is part of me that thinks " I wish these were my parents" because I would have loved to be 18 and starting my adult life with a bit of an edge. However, that speaks to my very academic loving brain. I started college at the good ol' age of 19 and then spent copious amounts of time collecting bachelor's and graduate degrees. I just really loved it. For kids who aren't geared like that it would be torture. They just happened to appear to be fairly academic children.

[homemommy83]

Well, I don't know anyone who thinks it's a great idea to push kids hard in sports when they're really young — and I say that as the parent of an elite athlete who happens to be at a World Cup in Europe as I type this. But he didn't start young and he was never pushed; most of the elite athletes I know were dragging their parents along for the ride, not being pushed by them.

 

And I think the same thing applies to kids who are academically advanced; it's one thing if the child is pushing for it and the parent is following the child's lead, but it's very different when it's a parent deciding that all of their children are going to start college at 14, and have a BA/BS by 18 or 19, and only in a major approved by the parent. It's not the "early academic success" that people are questioning, it's the fact that the path this family takes is so parent-driven. I'm certainly not opposed to early college — I graduated HS at 16 and had my MA at 21, but every part of that was entirely my choice, and it's not something I would ever presume to "choose" for my kids.

I had that academically inclined son who was reading at 24 months old (early readers/ all of the kids picture books at the library) and who by 4 was enjoying the read of my college Anatomy and Physiology book/ and could read ANY thing with comprehension.  He completed all the way through division (with conceptual understanding not just rote) by 7, and had read all of the Apologia/ Abeka science books I could get my hands on.  I never pushed him, and he never intended to graduate early, so we just let him relax/ review concepts with new books/ did family studies/ let him read a TON (I doubt that there is a classic on his Kindle that he hasn't read multiple times) during the next several years, but if he had of wanted to continue moving forward (he was clearly capable) then I would have allowed him to.  I think you are right that it needs to be the child's choice.

 

I was like you, very motivated as a young person and would have loved the opportunity to graduate early and go off to college early, but I don't think all children desire this either.  If the issue is financial- let them know that hey CC  is free during HS (DE), and if you want to save money on your education this is a great way to go, but let them choose whether they want the extra debt (if there will be any) or not.  

 

Despite our sons early aptitude we still didn't begin true Algebra/Geometry until he had hair under his arms (yes if he had wanted we would have obliged) as children tend to learn abstract concepts quicker/easier when they are older and into puberty.

 

My son will be taking many college classes now that he has decided to in his last couple years of HS, but they will be of his own choosing.

 

Brenda

[8filltheheart]

DE being free while in high school is state/school dependent and not true everywhere. We have paid for it in every state we have lived in except for 1 university that allowed srs to take a free class fall semester (recruiting tool).

[shawthorne44]

... However, that speaks to my very academic loving brain. I started college at the good ol' age of 19 and then spent copious amounts of time collecting bachelor's and graduate degrees. I just really loved it. For kids who aren't geared like that it would be torture. They just happened to appear to be fairly academic children.

 

That is me too.  My high school and university are literally within sight of each other.  Starting when I was 9, I would walk 3 miles to the university bookstore and spend hours there in summer.  Auditing college classes is one of my planned retirement activities. While in high school, many times, I pined for college.   I even asked my mom at one time if I could take a class.   I didn't even have a particular class in mind, any would have been good.   My parents were very pro-high school experience and said No.   To me, High School equals drudgery and University is the promised land.  

[El...]

I just finished the book, OP, and will be back later to discuss more! Thanks for the recommendation. It reminds me, in some ways, of my parents' philosophy of homeschooling.

 

Your comment that your dh couldn't listen to all the things cracked me up. My poor dh. ðŸ˜

[Laura Corin]

That is me too.  My high school and university are literally within sight of each other.  Starting when I was 9, I would walk 3 miles to the university bookstore and spend hours there in summer.  Auditing college classes is one of my planned retirement activities. While in high school, many times, I pined for college.   I even asked my mom at one time if I could take a class.   I didn't even have a particular class in mind, any would have been good.   My parents were very pro-high school experience and said No.   To me, High School equals drudgery and University is the promised land.  

 

I work for a university, and low cost evening modules is one of the perks.  No need to take a degree, but it costs about £140 per year to take as many as you like, I think.  I look forward to that once Husband and I are on our own.

[Ad astra]

Well, I don't know anyone who thinks it's a great idea to push kids hard in sports when they're really young — and I say that as the parent of an elite athlete who happens to be at a World Cup in Europe as I type this. But he didn't start young and he was never pushed; most of the elite athletes I know were dragging their parents along for the ride, not being pushed by them.

 

And I think the same thing applies to kids who are academically advanced; it's one thing if the child is pushing for it and the parent is following the child's lead, but it's very different when it's a parent deciding that all of their children are going to start college at 14, and have a BA/BS by 18 or 19, and only in a major approved by the parent. It's not the "early academic success" that people are questioning, it's the fact that the path this family takes is so parent-driven. I'm certainly not opposed to early college — I graduated HS at 16 and had my MA at 21, but every part of that was entirely my choice, and it's not something I would ever presume to "choose" for my kids.

 

It just makes me cringe when people quickly label other parents as "pushy" and assume their children were "forced" and thus unhappy. We all make those "decisions" for ours. Homeschooling is one of them and often parent-driven, too. Following the child's lead 100% is not exactly the WTM's philosophy, is it? We all try to positively encourage and guide our kids to choose and follow a path we think is best for them until they are old enough to do it on their own. 

 

I'm still in the early chapters of the book, but don't have an impression at all that the author put his kids through misery against their wills. What I see is just another supportive parents who place a great emphasis on education and care a great deal about their kids' life and happiness. You can't really "force" the achievements like getting into MIT and top PhD programs. And he never claimed what his family did was for everyone. 

 

His way of homeschooling is not my cup of tea, either, but the talking down and nitpicking criticism I've seen here (without reading the book) seems to be a bit unfair. 

[kiana]

Actually, he was fine with him being a math professor. What his concern was for his son was if he went and majored in this as an undergraduate degree, what if decided he didn't want to go to grad school? Then he has a bachelors that wasn't as lucrative for him in the long run. His guidance was to get a degree that would be lucrative if his son decided not to go further and if he did, then he could go to grad school to get his masters or PhD in math leading to becoming a math professor.

 

Not saying that is right or wrong, but that was his reasoning.

 

This decision is making less and less sense now.

 

Math professor pays peanuts, especially when you add up the opportunity cost of staying in school so long. I'd make a lot more money if I'd stuck with the bachelor's and gone for actuarial certification. 

[Dmmetler]

For my kid, she has yet to master her perfectionism and drive. It was more so when she was younger. She would not have been able to go "ah...study all night long and get a 98 or do a reasonable amount of work for a 93...I'll take the 93 and keep my sanity." when she was 14-17. Even now she struggles with those kinds of mindsets. Must be the best...even if the cost is high.

 

That was what I meant. Being the BEST is so important to her. She's getting better about not thinking that she has to prove something to the world. I don't think that early college would've been great for her. She constantly needs people to talk her down.

 

Just our experience.

 

My concern with these kinds of books is that some people think that they have to "keep up with the Joneses" in homeschooling. That's why I put things like this out there.

 

I do know that early college is great for some kids, but if the author is purporting that it's a wonderful thing and attainable for everyone, I do raise an eyebrow and make sure that I mention that early college is not for everyone.

 

I think the same thing about early athletics. Not for everyone. Not at all.

 

I hate the idea that we need to rush our kids through childhood and have them be the best. Average is alright. No big deal to have average ordinary kids.

For my kid, who tends to perfectionism as well, early college has been a better fit than high school because if she were in PS high school she’d be getting a lot of push to take loads of AP classes and get a high class rank and GPA to get into a good college. She’s a high performing kid who does well on tests and wants to live up to expectations. At this point, she’s in college, and she knows from the regular events on campus that there are many schools that recruit heavily at her CC campus and that she already qualifies for admission there. She may yet decide to go somewhere more competitive, but there isn’t that “if you don’t get a 4.0, you might have to settle for (horrors) COMMUNITY COLLEGEâ€-because she’s in community college and honestly, it’s not a bad place.

 

I don’t think it’s a good fit for everyone. Not all kids will be emotionally or socially able to cope in that environment early, even if academically ready. But I think in some cases, early college can let a kid who tends to put a lot of pressure on themself step off the treadmill that is often expected of a high performing kid.

[SeaConquest]

I'm not defending the authors' stance, but here is what they say on this topic:

 

"We had a back-and-forth conversation with each child about her or his undergraduate major and possible graduate studies. We steered the children toward degrees that suited their strengths and interests and that also would likely lead to successful employment. As we worked with them, we specifically identified and steered them away from fields where, in our experience, it was more difficult to find employment. For example, Ben initially wanted to study math and become a mathematics professor. We told him that an undergraduate degree in mathematics was likely not a wise idea because, if for some reason he could not continue on to graduate school, his career options might be limited. In Lydia's case, she had an interest in history and, in particular, the study of governance and war. Despite her affinity for historical studies, we were prepared to forbid her from majoring in history because we had personally known several people with history degrees who were not able to find employment that paid well. Fortunately, the issue never arose because she was more interested in math and science."

I haven't read all the comments yet, but this comment is ridiculously ill-informed. I went to law school with plenty of math majors. In addition, top management consulting firms and investment banks love math majors.

 

As for their results, it's cool that it worked out for them, but considering the small sample size of all genetically nearly identical folks in their data set, I think it would be impossible to draw any meaningful conclusions re how this method might work for others.

[El...]

I bought and enjoyed the book; it made me re-think a few things.  It's February, and I needed a bump in my homeschool-teacher process!  

 

I believe a lot of folks commenting here are reacting to one idea in the book, without the context of the author's viewpoint.  That's fine; there's something to react to!  Their concept of what college is supposed to do is wildly different than most people's.  But I don't think these parents are the controlling, hyper-ambitious people some are perceiving from an isolated quote or two.

 

It's obvious to me that they had some pretty accelerated kids with no learning issues.

 

I liked this: "Rather than an entire semester of a health class or economics, for example, we provided books on these subjects that allowed our children to learn the material in a shorter time period."  They really broke out of the semester and grade mold, and went as fast as their kids could go.  I need to remember than concept.  It's too easy for me to follow a curriculum and bang away at it, rather than considering what, exactly, I'm trying to teach the kids in front of me.  It would be easy to waste my kids' time.  

 

It was worth the read, just for that thought.  

 

 

 

 

[regentrude]

I liked this: "Rather than an entire semester of a health class or economics, for example, we provided books on these subjects that allowed our children to learn the material in a shorter time period."  They really broke out of the semester and grade mold, and went as fast as their kids could go.

 

Many of us here homeschool like this.

Where we differ is what we do with the time gained by the kid learning something in a shorter time: consider education a race to a degree, or have the kid simply learn more at home before going off to college. 

[kiana]

I liked this: "Rather than an entire semester of a health class or economics, for example, we provided books on these subjects that allowed our children to learn the material in a shorter time period."  They really broke out of the semester and grade mold, and went as fast as their kids could go.  I need to remember than concept.  It's too easy for me to follow a curriculum and bang away at it, rather than considering what, exactly, I'm trying to teach the kids in front of me.  It would be easy to waste my kids' time.  

 

It was worth the read, just for that thought.  

 

For this, I agree 100%. When it is something that is really just a tick-the-box (like health) or something that the child is not very interested in and has no desire to pursue further, I see absolutely no issue with completing the book, ticking the box, and going on to a subject of more interest.

 

But for a large percentage of kids, that time saved will be better spent making their other subjects stronger rather than just moving ahead. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

I bought and enjoyed the book; it made me re-think a few things.  It's February, and I needed a bump in my homeschool-teacher process!  

 

I believe a lot of folks commenting here are reacting to one idea in the book, without the context of the author's viewpoint.  That's fine; there's something to react to!  Their concept of what college is supposed to do is wildly different than most people's.  But I don't think these parents are the controlling, hyper-ambitious people some are perceiving from an isolated quote or two.

 

It's obvious to me that they had some pretty accelerated kids with no learning issues.

 

I liked this: "Rather than an entire semester of a health class or economics, for example, we provided books on these subjects that allowed our children to learn the material in a shorter time period."  They really broke out of the semester and grade mold, and went as fast as their kids could go.  I need to remember than concept.  It's too easy for me to follow a curriculum and bang away at it, rather than considering what, exactly, I'm trying to teach the kids in front of me.  It would be easy to waste my kids' time.  

 

It was worth the read, just for that thought.  

 

For me personally, I approached it wondering what new and wonderful thing would be revealed.  And was disappointed.  Because for me, it wasn't new.  Or all that wonderful.  I'm not saying that it didn't work for them.  I'm not saying that it doesn't work for other people.  But I have a different viewpoint when it comes to learning in general, and higher learning in particular.  I guess I did react a bit to the "co chosen major" part of things because I have a different viewpoint when it comes to parenting young adults. And because I have a different viewpoint when it comes to learning, I have different expectations (if you can call it that) when it comes to letting my young adults loose with the world of deeper thinking and more complicated subjects.  I expect them to drive the bus.  And they expect to drive the bus.

 

I am another person with the experience of starting university at 16 in a different country than where I even grew up.  I was bored in many of my university classes.  I actually want my kids to have a different experience than I did in crossing off those university boxes (which is  what it can become when university is  dumbed down and  doesn't  get into higher level.thinking).   And because of how we approached learning throughout, my son has achieved that. But even if he didn't, I have the satisfaction of knowing that I gave them a good thorough liberal arts education at home that no one can screw up. 

 

So for me, personally, it was a confirmation that the "new" shiny thing was not all that and that I should keep on keeping on. 

[Tsuga]

I don't have a quibble with the practical major part. Say the child has a burning desire to study Art History. Under this plan, at 18 the child can start a Art History degree with a head-start like those that get an AA by 18. Also with the practical major degree, the child could find a job with a company that pays tuition of employee's.

How will they pay for it? They already have a bachelor's and therefore cannot get Pell. That is my objection to this plan, frankly. If it didn't curtail future study it would be much less concerning.

 

And for tuition paid--maybe, if you can hack it as a full time employee at 18, no internships, no other jobs. It is not easy.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Tsuga

[shawthorne44]

How will they pay for it? They already have a bachelor's and therefore cannot get Pell. That is my objection to this plan, frankly. If it didn't curtail future study it would be much less concerning.

 

And for tuition paid--maybe, if you can hack it as a full time employee at 18, no internships, no other jobs. It is not easy.

 

How would they know during the interview process that someone was 18?  If someone graduated college recently and looks under-30, they are going to think that the person is somewhere in the 22-ish to 27-ish range.  Or, do you mean that 18-year-olds aren't ready for full time employment?   A great many are.  It wasn't that long ago that full time employment was the default after high school graduation (at least for men).  

[kiana]

How will they pay for it? They already have a bachelor's and therefore cannot get Pell. That is my objection to this plan, frankly. If it didn't curtail future study it would be much less concerning.

 

Ya. I'm a lot less negative about associate's degrees -- there's time to change major, potentially with taking a year or two of part-time classes if the major is extremely sequential -- for example, if you suddenly want to do physics, it'd be much smarter to take a couple more years of part-time full-pay at the CC to get through the first few classes and the calculus sequence, then transfer as a super-junior, but still usually eligible for financial aid for the jr/sr years -- but if you've already gotten a bachelor's, more classes are pricier and you aren't still eligible for financial aid for the last 2 years (which usually need to be done at a 4-year). 

[shawthorne44]

Would these children have been eligible for grants at 18 even without already having a B.S?  Most Pell Grants are for families making less than 30K.   I had assumed that the parents paid for the B.S. out of pocket.   The children certainly couldn't have incurred any debt when they were <18.  So, the kids have a marketable B.S. with zero debt.  That is nothing to sneeze at.   

[...................]

I look at some families where there are 6 kids who all did the same two majors math or music, the same sport, or no sport, all participate in the same academic club, aimed

For the same college and took almost the same path to get there and I kind of have to wonder if the kids had more opportunities outside this family, would they have found other interests? Was there an artist in there? An English major? Maybe - gasp- a teacher ?

 

But then on the other hand, there are genetics. Maybe they really all came out gifted in math and music. ...

[Kassia]

I look at some families where there are 6 kids who all did the same two majors math or music, the same sport, or no sport, all participate in the same academic club, aimed

For the same college and took almost the same path to get there and I kind of have to wonder if the kids had more opportunities outside this family, would they have found other interests? Was there an artist in there? An English major? Maybe - gasp- a teacher ?

 

But then on the other hand, there are genetics. Maybe they really all came out gifted in math and music. ...

 

My three sons graduated from the same university - one with a computer science degree, another with a computer science and engineering degree, and the other with an electrical engineering degree.  All their own choice.  Not sure what my dd will do yet, but she definitely doesn't want to to go the same college they graduated from.  

 

ETA - DH is a computer engineer. 

Edited February 5, 2018 by Kassia

[kiana]

I look at some families where there are 6 kids who all did the same two majors math or music, the same sport, or no sport, all participate in the same academic club, aimed

For the same college and took almost the same path to get there and I kind of have to wonder if the kids had more opportunities outside this family, would they have found other interests? Was there an artist in there? An English major? Maybe - gasp- a teacher ?

 

But then on the other hand, there are genetics. Maybe they really all came out gifted in math and music. ...

 

Ya, and sometimes it's a really benign family influence as well -- well, dad does this job, and he's pretty happy, and does these hobbies in his spare time, my hobbies are very hard to make a living at, so maybe I will just do a job I know I can do and not hate. 

[luuknam]

Most people who don't go to college are full time employees at 18. Why would it be harder for a person who has finished their associate's to be a successful full time employee at 18? 

 

 

I think Tsuga meant that it might be hard to find a job that offers tuition benefits, and even IF you can find such a job at 18yo, working full time while going to college for a second degree might be a lot to juggle (probably a lot easier if they keep living at home after they're 18). Not that working full time at 18 would be hard to do. 

 

I've got excessive hours. College (at least in TX (back when we lived in TX - obviously I wouldn't get in-state tuition in TX now since we live in NY now)) would charge more than the in-state tuition rate because of that. Odds are that that's the same for a second bachelor's, since you'd have excessive hours by definition if you're doing that. Then and again, maybe they just like to discourage people from finishing those last few courses for their first degree. 

Edited February 5, 2018 by luuknam

[kiana]

I've got excessive hours. College (at least in TX (back when we lived in TX - obviously I wouldn't get in-state tuition in TX now since we live in NY now)) would charge more than the in-state tuition rate because of that. Odds are that that's the same for a second bachelor's, since you'd have excessive hours by definition if you're doing that. Then and again, maybe they just like to discourage people from finishing those last few courses for their first degree. 

 

More aimed at the "professional students" who are in school forever gaming the system. It stinks when it catches legit people -- I had to petition for a waiver myself. 

[Tsuga]

How would they know during the interview process that someone was 18?  If someone graduated college recently and looks under-30, they are going to think that the person is somewhere in the 22-ish to 27-ish range.  Or, do you mean that 18-year-olds aren't ready for full time employment?   A great many are.  It wasn't that long ago that full time employment was the default after high school graduation (at least for men).  

 

Your driver's license and social security card. The fact that your only other job experience on your CV when applying will be doing your mom's dishes? The way you talk, the way you move... I'm all for full-time employment for 18 year olds but professional-level jobs such as the ones you get when you have a degree are quite different.

 

It's almost impossible to get work as a 14 year old, so you'll only have one or two jobs before applying as an engineer at 18. And if you guys think that companies look at people with no job experience at all, only academic experience--that might be true in the white-hot job market right now in some areas, but where I work we definitely look for "real life" job experience in sales, construction, retail, anything. We hire new grads but focus on those who worked and who have internships (both being weighted pretty equally).

 

Professional-level jobs are not tailored at first-time job seekers.

 

You can absolutely work at 18, but I think being 18+0 years job experience is going to be at a huge disadvantage to someone who is 21 + 4 years working their way up in a medical billing office or in the university dining hall. That's real life experience, real responsibility for equipment, for a till. I'm not going to hand an 18 year old a $200k project as his first job. The buck rolls up to me. I need an adult who has stood the test of fire in the kitchen or military service or at the very least, selling cars or washing windows or for the love of god give me someone who has managed a till for six months straight.

 

 

I have seen the difference. Never had to take anyone off my projects but two people. Both of them had never had a real job before.  I had to teach them everything. They were smart people! Great potential. But they had no sense of customer service, boot licking, or anything. They just wanted to be handed tasks and to do them. Granted, this is anecdotal, but if I look at myself and how I learned, I'd have been the exact same at 18. I had to teach them all the real life stuff: "Nobody reads your e-mails. Nobody reads anything in business. Please write one line. Not a paragraph and definitely not a page. It's a great letter but nobody will read it." "So, think about the difference between saying "so that's it" and "I'd love to hear your feedback"... No I know you don't really want their feedback but this is business..." "Okay but flexible working hours doesn't mean you work when you want, it means you work when the client wants..."

 

Arrrrrrgh.

 

"Soft" skills. We need them. They should be called "hard skills" in my opinion. Hard to get and they make you hard.

 

I'd rather hire someone with two years of experience managing a grocery store, than a degree from MIT. Grocery store can deal with crap. MIT can only deal with complicated instructions. But in business you don't get instructions. You have to take crap and turn it into self-instructions all while being cheerful and managing a team.

 

So, that's why I don't think you would be employable at 18. Because you aren't in charge of anyone at 16. I am not looking for a piece of paper.

 

I will say that this only applies to the professional fields. For MDs, because they have so many years of education, and so much professional on the job training, I don't think this point applies.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Tsuga

[shawthorne44]

Another idea would be as an Engineering Tech at Texas Instruments (or someplace like that).   There is a reason it is also informally called the Training Institute.  As Tech someone could work the less desirable weekend shift (day or night) and not have to worry about being constantly on-call or unpaid overtime. 

[luuknam]

Luuknam, your local public school district has full time jobs with tuition benefits and less than an 8 hour work day. There are no ifs...in my area, there are always vacancies for full time paraprofessionals for special needs. My neighbor is turning down work as she needs to study for her nursing classes.  Para does require some college classes - ask and you will find out what the district requires.   Working full time while going to school is very easy for certain people with certain degrees....when you go over to the U by you, ask around.  The bigger problem I'm seeing is that 16 and 17s have work restrictions if not self employed, and they are ineligible for some of the gov't scholarships such as the SMART because of age.

 

I don't know what you mean by excessive hours.  My kid has 4 year degree, wants to switch majors for a master's and had to  matriculate in a 2 year program so he can take the core undergrad classes he needs and  also qualify for employee tuition reimbursement.  The CC didn't charge extra, they transferred in everything they could and they want to hand him the Associates. He won't even need half the program hours.  I suggest you head over to big state U and explore, these people want you to get your education. They don't have to transfer in all your previous hours. Enrollment is declining as the amount of youngsters is declining, and they want to fill seats not layoff profs. 

 

 

Look, I'm not saying that working full time while going to school is hard for all people, just that depending on the job and the person it can be hard-to-impossible. This isn't about me. But, for example, the kids this thread is about graduated with engineering degrees. They're not going to work as paras in my school district to get tuition benefits. Neither am I, for that matter - I'm not sure about my current school district, but my previous district required an AA in childhood education (I asked my kid's para), and paid peanuts - because of the courses I already have, and the courses I'd need, in the time it'd take me to get an AA in childhood ed, I could get a BA in mathematics (I know, who in their right mind gets a BA in math - the author of that book must think I'd be nuts for even contemplating it). Also, I'm absolutely not suited to being a special needs para - that's definitely not something that's for everyone - there are probably oodles of people who should stay away from that kind of job for personality etc reasons. 

 

Excessive hours - well, the semester before we moved to NY I got a letter from the public university I attended in TX saying that because I had excessive hours, I'd have to pay a higher rate, a rate that was close to the out-of-state rate. Beyond that, I don't know, since we moved, so, I never actually took any courses there after that. I did get a letter later saying that they were willing to work with me to give me a discount on the higher rate because they wanted me to graduate for their graduation numbers or something, but, what with me being in NY, I didn't follow up. 

 

Either way, this wasn't meant as a woe-is-me (I know I sometimes post those), but as a reality check - it isn't always just as simple as graduate at 18 with an engineering degree, and then work full time while getting a second bachelor's in art history or w/e. Not all employers have tuition benefits, especially not for things unrelated to the employee's job, and not all jobs lend themselves to studying while working full time because of the crazy amount of overtime before deadlines, and that second degree *might* cost more money than the first degree if you have to pay for it yourself. Finally, if I were an employer hiring art history people, I'd be confused to see an engineering degree and an engineering job on someone's resume and wonder if they're wishy-washy, i.e. if they're going to stick with it, or if they're going to be bored and go do something completely different next year. 

 

Again, I'm not saying that it might not work great for some people - but that as general advice, I'm not convinced it's good advice. 

[Skippy]

for the benefit of the lurkings...

Job experience isn't solely obtained as an employee.  14s can volunteer, or they can be self-employed.

its not impossible for a young person who will be graduating as an engineer at 18 to work in his field.  

 

my mileage does vary on the 16s not in charge of anyone.....lifeguard starts at 16 here, and the right person is going to have volunteers to supervise as well as 2 other guards. Same for trade work...16 is when the kids here are done apprenticing to parent, and start their own company, often hiring friends.  The kids working in the family restaurant often start younger.

 

graduating at 18 with an eng degree...I know 2 who grad this spring.  They don't lack for offers, don't lack for professional experience, don't lack for semester or summer abroad, don't lack for soft skills. and have a tremendous work ethic.  you are comparing apples to orange...18+0 is not the norm for that set, its more like 18+4 because they were self-employed before 16, internships 16+, as well as attended middle schools that allow AP courses and high schools/nearby Us that gave them DE credits.  It isn't available to everyone, you have to live in an area that values education and learning or homeschool.  But you want to work in science/eng at 16, the opportunity and the mentoring is there. Or you want to leave and start your company based on your invention, the mentoring is there too. 

 

I haven't read the book, so I can't really comment on that part of the discussion. But as far as the quote above, I agree, and much of what you said has been the experience in our family.

 

An early bachelor's degree and youth did not hinder employment opportunities in a professional field at the age of 18 for the two of my children who did this.

 

So, I am sharing this to encourage anyone who is reading and has children who have chosen an accelerated path. I had my worries about this (how difficult finding and transitioning to employment would be), but I shouldn't have. The early start turned out to be a blessing instead of an impediment.

 

However, early college graduation was their goal and not something that I required. At times, truth be told, I suppose that my preference would have been to slow them down and keep them young a while longer, but that would probably be as wrong as pushing them would have been.

 

Thankfully, this has worked well for my children. But I don't push what my children have done on others. There are so many different ways to do this, and everyone has to figure this out for themselves.

[luuknam]

Btw, I'm not against getting a degree at 18. I just think it's probably not all that sensible to get an engineering degree at 18 when you want to do something completely different, with the goal of then going for that second degree while working full time as an engineer. Yes, make whatever major you choose as employable as possible for the job you want, i.e. take some electives that make you more employable, do internships, etc. But if your interest lies in math, getting a BA or BS in math is perfectly fine, or if you're interested in history, war, and governance, you could certainly make some sort of humanities major marketable for the field of public policy or w/e. 

[Tsuga]

 

However, early college graduation was their goal and not something that I required. 

 

I think this is a huge, huge difference though. An individual that driven, focused, and determined is obviously going to succeed in the workplace. The reason we have things set up as they are for average/median kids is because most kids are average/median, and can really be successful in a full time professional job around 20-22 or so.

 

I learned to read at three. There's a huge difference between monkey training a kid to learn to read at three, and them reading at three.

 

I would LOVE for my kids to get a bachelor's at 19. That would be awesome to see them demonstrate that drive, responsibility, and talent. But forcing them is not the same thing.

 

So while I understand your comment, I think it doesn't apply to this book or the commentary. A person who is driven to get a degree at 18 is exactly the sort of person who might just be able to simultaneously set up a business at 18, which is, of course, amazing. And it happens.

 

But if you take "any" kid (as is the subject of the book) and try to shove them through this process, you are going to have a much less impressive outcome. And it's not going to be the kind of kid you want to have managing your mutual fund or even doing edits to that, at 18.

[daijobu]

Ya, and sometimes it's a really benign family influence as well -- well, dad does this job, and he's pretty happy, and does these hobbies in his spare time, my hobbies are very hard to make a living at, so maybe I will just do a job I know I can do and not hate. 

 

This reminded me of an article from a few years back about an erstwhile rock star, who ended up becoming a dentist and pursues his rock star lifestyle on the side.  

 

The title of the article?  Reality Bites

[maize]

I'm slowly reading through the book as I find the time

 

 

On the whole I like it. This family has many positives in their family culture.

 

I do think the parents underestimate the genetic contribution to their children's success, especially with math. At the beginning of the book they excoriate math teaching in the public schools and they have this to say about their own children's math education:

 

 

"If we did nothing else right in our homeschool study program, we did math right. All of the children understood math up through differential equations at least. They got high grades in all of their math classes. One child, Ben, is studying applied mathematics at the PhD level. Another child, Lydia, uses a lot of math in the type of signal processing work that she studies at school. Our children were in no way limited by the math instruction that they received in the home. In fact, math was a source of academic strength for them."

 

But the parents themselves are both mathematically inclined engineers who succeeded in spite of learning their math in the public school system.

 

I don't mean to devalue their hard work in teaching their children; just to point out again that they seem to have started with above average aptitude in this regard.

Edited February 6, 2018 by maize

[Arcadia]

But the parents themselves are both mathematically inclined engineers who succeeded in spite of learning their math in the public school system.

 

I don't mean to devalue their hard work in teaching their children; just to point out again that they seem to have started with above average aptitude in this regard.

My husband’s office building is almost all engineers including the department secretaries. Kids from brick and mortar k-8 public and private schools are having intensive math tuition in high school to catch up if they didn’t after school math (parents and/or tutors) in middle school. So while nature may be important, I am seeing nurture at work locally with selective few high school students able to ride it out based on solely aptitude and study groups of friends. Even a study group of friends can be counted as nurturing in a way, parents drop the kids off at the meeting place (usually library), give them cash for the library vending machines or Starbucks, and pick them up when they are ready to go home. The kids literally call their parents when they are ready to leave and the parents would swing around and pick them up.

[kiana]

Ya. But to be actually working at a well-above-average level in university and graduate at 18 requires nature AND nurture. 

[8filltheheart]

But the parents themselves are both mathematically inclined engineers who succeeded in spite of learning their math in the public school system.

 

I don't mean to devalue their hard work in teaching their children; just to point out again that they seem to have started with above average aptitude in this regard.

 

My kids have never struggled with math.  Get stuck on some concepts...yeah, sometimes, but struggle? No.

 

Last year I taught my granddaughter.  My dil really, really struggled with math.  When I was working with my granddaughter, all of the ways I had discussed concepts with my kids in the past went right over her head.  I mean, she struggled with understanding that 2+3 is the same thing as 3+2.  That is something I have never even had to explain before!!!  I tried everything I could think of. Using objects didn't help. Using her fingers didn't work.  I finally got her to connect with it by using dominoes.  I started spinning dominoes and asking her if the number of dots changed or stayed the same.  Suddenly, the light bulb went off.  But, goodness, everything I thought I knew about teaching math went out the window and I had to dig into my creative teaching bag to come up with ways to help her understand.

 

The idea that just bc I was teaching her meant that she could progress at the same rate as my kids......not happening.  My kids have blown through single addition like duh, move on.  For her it is a big deal to master.

 

ETA:  I meant to add that when I talked to my dil about what I was seeing, she responded that she remembers struggling with the exact same sort of things. I think genetics plays a huge role.

Edited February 6, 2018 by 8FillTheHeart

[maize]

Ok I'm finally to the part where they start talking about college.

 

It actually sounds like early college was something they fell into initially, it was what just happened to meet their needs at the time:

 

 

 

 

"Initially it was not our plan to have our children start college at fourteen years old. When Alex was getting close to fourteen, he was ready to take the lab science classes that he would need for admission at ASU. We did not want to set up a laboratory in the house, so we called the local high school to try to get Alex enrolled for lab science classes there. Even though we called many times and left messages, nobody ever called us back. After two weeks of trying with no response whatsoever, it occurred to Lawrence that Alex could just take the classes at MCC. Tanya took Alex to MCC on a Friday. He had not had any special preparation to start at MCC. He did well on the required placement exams, registered for classes, and started at MCC on the next Monday. His performance on the placement exams confirmed to us that he was well prepared at home. Only later did we learn that a one-semester class at the college level is equivalent to a yearlong class at the high school level. Since our children did well in their classes at MCC, we were really glad that the high school did not deign to return our calls. At MCC they got the lab classes that they needed for admission plus college credit that was accepted at ASU for their major. The classes at the local high school would have met the ASU entrance requirements but would not have yielded college credit. It was a huge, serendipitous advantage that our children ended up at MCC as opposed to the high school. Sending our children to the community college at fourteen did concern us. We believed that they were academically well prepared, but the courses at MCC were taught at the university level; the courses at home were not. We were further concerned because their grades at MCC would become part of a permanent record that would affect future opportunities. If they were not ready for the challenge at that age, a long-term disaster would occur. We watched closely for signs of stress or negative emotional states. Without expressing my concerns to Tanya, I wondered if putting a child into such a rigorous environment at such an early age was good. I felt panicky, but the die had been cast. Looking back and after asking our children about their viewpoints, I think that the transition was harder on Tanya and I than it was on the children, and, even though all of the children did fine making the transition, with each child we worried

 

...

 

We still wonder today how our children would have turned out if we had not allowed them to attend MCC. They were intellectually ready to handle college-level material. They were ready to start on a meaningful university major. What would have been the outcome if we had retarded their progress? As we discuss below, we went through a lot of anguish when Ben left home at seventeen to study at Johns Hopkins University. It was so far away, he was so young, and we knew nobody in the area. Maybe we are overly attached to our children or maybe we are inherently fearful. Regardless of the source of our problems, we are glad that we overcame our fears and let our children move on."

 

I'm not really seeing pushy parent in this.

 

A somewhat narrow focus, maybe a narrow grasp of options, but on the whole good parents trying to support their kids and give them opportunities.

[ktgrok]

Excess hours is a REAL thing in many places. In Florida it sure is. If I enrolled to finish my BA I'd have to pay what is basically out of state tuition, because I have too many hours. They just don't have room for everyone so charging extra for excessive hours helps keep people moving in and out more quickly 

 

Students beginning Fall Semester 2009 through Summer 2011 will be charged 1.5 times the tuition rate for each credit hour beyond 120% of the required hours of that degree program. Students beginning Fall 2011 through Summer 2012 will be charged two times the tuition rate for each credit beyond 115% of the required hours of that degree program. Students beginning Fall 2012 and beyond will be charged two times the tuition rate for each credit beyond 110% of the required hours of the degree program.

 

Actually..hmm.....it says "for that degree program" so maybe it wouldn't be an issue. Something to look into. (also glad I looked this up because since I technically entered the system before those dates hopefully it doesn't apply to me!