Would you be bothered? Extravagant friends

[Catwoman]

No, it won’t be terrible if he finds out another boy went, because he doesn’t have that entitled notion that he should get to do and have everything. (See what I did there?) He’s also not a sensitive kid; he’s very happy-go-lucky.

If word does get around and DS asks me why we said no, I would tell him he can go on a trip like that when he is independent. Most likely, this is not the last opportunity he will ever have to go on a very nice trip.

My point had nothing to do with entitlement (I only bolded it because you did. :D) It had everything to do with honesty. And if you don't tell your son about the trip, you are being secretive and dishonest with him. He's 12 years old. Why you would want to keep this a secret from a 12yo is beyond me. And if he's as happy-go-lucky as you say he is, and that he will be fine with your decision, that is all the more reason to be honest with him.  

 

Here's the thing -- I wouldn't have let my son go on an international trip with a friend's family when he was 12, either. I would have had the same worries and concerns you mentioned about it. But it never would have occurred to me not to be upfront with my son about him having been invited, because I would have assumed he had the right to know that the friend and his parents cared so much about him that they wanted to include him in their vacation plans.

 

I feel like maybe you're the one who's competitive with the other family, and not the other way around. You seem worried that your son will have too much fun with them and not value his time with you as much, and I hate to say this, but you sound kind of jealous that the other family is giving your son so many fun opportunities. I don't understand that way of thinking. Why would he ever choose another family over his own? He would have to be pretty shallow to prefer the other family because they could give him fancier experiences. Give your son some credit. He sounds like a great kid.

 

Right, but there are several posters in this thread who seem to believe they have a better handle on what this family does and why than I do. There are posters assuming negative things of me, while assuming positive things about the other famliy.

I really wish you had made this a JAWM thread.

 

You have made many negative and judgmental comments in this thread, and you have also been quite inconsistent in your description of the other family, yet you seem to think we should all agree with you. We are making our assessments based on the things you have posted. On one hand, they are wonderful people and you've been friends with them for many years and your son and their son get along very well together and the parents treat your son like one of their own kids, but on the other hand, you also make them out to be pretty superficial and awful, and you make us wonder why you would even want to be friends with them or why you would want your son to be friends with their son. One one hand, the family is fun and your son enjoys spending time with them, and he likes all of the special activities he does with them... but then you say you think they have some sort of terrible, selfish ulterior motives for being so nice to him.

 

Is it any wonder that some of us are confused? And is it any surprise that some people are offended by your highly negative judgments of families that don't choose to live exactly the way you do? Seriously, before you get too offended and feel like people are judging you, I hope you will go back and re-read your posts and see how judgmental you have been, as well.

 

You know I like you, Quill, and I am often nodding my head in agreement when I read your posts, so I have to say I'm more than a little surprised at some of the things you have said in this thread. Maybe your impression of the other family is 100% correct -- but if it is, I honestly think you should reconsider whether or not you and your family should be friends with them at all, because if they ever find out what you really think of them, it will most certainly hurt their feelings.

[SeaConquest]

Are you really saying that there isn’t a problematic consumerism underlying some of this behavior? That some of these people aren’t deriving their self-worth from how much money and stuff they can get? And that deriving your self-worth from how much you happen to be lucky enough to make and spend isn’t problematic?

We've had an indoor skydiving birthday party for my 8 year old. We had about 25 people show up. I wasn't trying to one-up anyone else's birthday party. The skydiving place was new, my kid wanted to do it, we could afford to throw a party there (I still bought the tickets through Costco for a deal), and thought it would be a cool memory. I never gave a thought to what other people do. We just did us, and I regret nothing. A great time was had by all (to my knowledge!), and several parents thanked me because their kids had been dying to go. But, I fear now that this would somehow be perceived as off-putting to many of you who agree with Quill's POV, and that's sad to me because it wasn't my intent in throwing the party at all.

 

Eta: The best part of the party was actually that the two grandmothers in attendance were so inspired by the kids that they too decided to join in the fun. Watching my and my DH's moms do something they never in a million years thought they'd ever do was priceless.

Edited November 29, 2017 by SeaConquest

[SKL]

Are you really saying that there isn’t a problematic consumerism underlying some of this behavior? That some of these people aren’t deriving their self-worth from how much money and stuff they can get? And that deriving your self-worth from how much you happen to be lucky enough to make and spend isn’t problematic?

 

I don't know those people's psychological condition, but it seems to me that this was going on in their elite neighborhood.  It's not their fault if people come from other neighborhoods and are aghast that people who have money spend money on fun holidays.

 

Imagine if you took your current lifestyle (whatever that is) and transplanted it to an average neighborhood in a developing country.  You might find that you are extremely materialistic, wasteful, and entitled compared to your neighbors.  It's just a matter of degree and if you have access to this site, you are throwing more money around than the vast majority of humans.  Should you feel guilty about that or hide it or leave the grid?  I don't think so.  But neither should more wealthy neighbors have to hide or change how they spend, unless it's a patently immoral activity.  (I don't think eating or sharing ice cream is.)

[Catwoman]

Are you really saying that there isn’t a problematic consumerism underlying some of this behavior? That some of these people aren’t deriving their self-worth from how much money and stuff they can get? And that deriving your self-worth from how much you happen to be lucky enough to make and spend isn’t problematic?

Using the Ben & Jerry's truck as an example... maybe the family wanted to do a kind and generous thing for the neighborhood kids because they thought it would be a fun surprise for them.

 

If people like nice things and can afford to buy them, it makes perfect sense that they will spend some of their money on those nice things. It doesn't have to be "problematic." It doesn't meant they are "deriving their self-worth" from how much money they make.

 

Just because some people are able to afford nicer things does not mean they are somehow lacking in personal character. Sure, some people are obnoxious show-offs... but there are obnoxious show-offs in poor neighborhoods, too -- they're just showing off different stuff.

 

It's not about the money or the possessions. It's about the attitude.

[SKL]

And honestly, I have been in the position of holding wealthier lifestyles in contempt.  I look back and feel ashamed for having been petty.  I have absolutely lovely friends in all income brackets - and I've seen messed-up people in all income brackets.  While I sometimes wonder about my kids being spoiled, I don't lay awake nights worrying about it.  They seem like pretty grounded people so far.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Are you really saying that there isn’t a problematic consumerism underlying some of this behavior? That some of these people aren’t deriving their self-worth from how much money and stuff they can get? And that deriving your self-worth from how much you happen to be lucky enough to make and spend isn’t problematic?

The problematic thing is trying to tell by looking, which families are eaten up with materialism and would be like Gollum biting off Frodo's finger to get the One Ring, and which families are just normal people who have more discretionary income and like to be generous with their friends and community.

 

The analysis of motives in life is for *ourselves*, not toward other people.

[Catwoman]

We've had an indoor skydiving birthday party for my 8 year old. We had about 25 people show up. I wasn't trying to one-up anyone else's birthday party. The skydiving place was new, my kid wanted to do it, we could afford to throw a party there (I still bought the tickets through Costco for a deal), and thought it would be a cool memory. I never gave a thought to what other people do. We just did us, and I regret nothing. A great time was had by all (to my knowledge!), and several parents thanked me because their kids had been dying to go. But, I fear now that this would somehow be perceived as off-putting to many of you who agree with Quill's POV, and that's sad to me because it wasn't my intent in throwing the party at all.

I agree! It would never have occurred to me that people would make negative judgments and assumptions about someone who is trying to do something nice so kids will have a great time.

 

But apparently some people feel that if you spend whatever they consider to be too much money on anything, you're showing off, and your kids are going to become entitled brats... and you're trying to corrupt all of the other parents' kids into becoming entitled brats, too.

 

That makes no sense at all to me. :confused:

[EmseB]

But your judgment of the other side is Hillbilly Elegy stereotyping at its best TBH.

 

I think that's a vast simplification of what is being discussed in this thread, but okay. And FWIW, people on TV reality shows stereotype themselves, but that's beside the point.

 

I am in a position much like Quill's, where we have what I consider to be an extremely luxurious lifestyle. We are able to do things and have things that I never would have dreamed of when I was growing up. So at face value it would appear than any critique I have of wealth would be hypocritical. However, there are certain attitudes about wealth and lifestyle that I don't want my kids to adopt and I struggle everyday with finding a balance.

 

So as a result, I've made judgements. Of course people can spend their money however they want. Of course they can take lavish vacations or throw what I consider to be over-the-top bday parties.  The issue becomes when (hypothetically) my kids see something like an MTV Sweet Sixteen birthday party and think that is an ideal to try to achieve. Or see relatives taking their young adult children on booze cruises to the Caribbean and wonder why we don't do that if we can certainly afford it. Or looking at a magazine spread of a $50-100k wedding and think that is what a good wedding must be.

 

Someone can look at any one of those things and say, "Well, if you can afford it and want to do it, why not?" Personally, just me, speaking only for myself, my goal for my kids is for them to not grow up not thinking those things are ideals or necessary for happiness or what have you. If that's a hillbilly judgement on people who do those things, then I guess I can live with that.

[Catwoman]

I ran out of likes last night and I haven't gotten any new ones yet, so I'm sorry I haven't been able to like most of the posts here!

[unsinkable]

I ran out of likes last night and I haven't gotten any new ones yet, so I'm sorry I haven't been able to like most of the posts here!

You really have to rethink your extravagant "likestyle."

[DawnM]

See post #254.

 

Yeah, I have not experienced that.  I am certainly not saying it doesn't exist, it just isn't what I have experienced (and it is quite possible that I see it and immediately walk away knowing we can't be friends so I don't pay attention as much.)

 

Those "Housewives of (name the city)" folks aren't in any circle I am familiar with.

[EmseB]

The analysis of motives in life is for *ourselves*, not toward other people.

 

Except  when Quill says she doesn't want her kid going on that type of vacation at 12 because of her and her DH's motives in life for *herself* and her kids, that's not okay and she should let her son go and to not let him go is depriving him.

 

I think she was quite honest about any possible jealousy/envy she had and impressions she had gathered after knowing the family for a long time, but also outlined very clearly her other internal motivations for not wanting her son to go on the trip, motives that were outside of any judgements about the other family and mostly about values about family time, appreciating low-key vacations, etc. People have said she should let him go anyway and took issue with those things as if she were personally critiquing how they live.

[Catwoman]

You really have to rethink your extravagant "likestyle."

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Guilty as charged!!!! :lol:

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Except  when Quill says she doesn't want her kid going on that type of vacation at 12 because of her and her DH's motives in life for *herself* and her kids, that's not okay and she should let her son go and to not let him go is depriving him.

 

I think she was quite honest about any possible jealousy/envy she had and impressions she had gathered after knowing the family for a long time, but also outlined very clearly her other internal motivations for not wanting her son to go on the trip, motives that were outside of any judgements about the other family and mostly about values about family time, appreciating low-key vacations, etc. People have said she should let him go anyway and took issue with those things as if she were personally critiquing how they live.

I was responding to the poster whom I quoted, about her thoughts that I quoted.

[EmseB]

I agree! It would never have occurred to me that people would make negative judgments and assumptions about someone who is trying to do something nice so kids will have a great time.

 

But apparently some people feel that if you spend whatever they consider to be too much money on anything, you're showing off, and your kids are going to become entitled brats... and you're trying to corrupt all of the other parents' kids into becoming entitled brats, too.

 

After reading the entire thread I think you are reacting to things people haven't said.

[DawnM]

I agree! It would never have occurred to me that people would make negative judgments and assumptions about someone who is trying to do something nice so kids will have a great time.

 

But apparently some people feel that if you spend whatever they consider to be too much money on anything, you're showing off, and your kids are going to become entitled brats... and you're trying to corrupt all of the other parents' kids into becoming entitled brats, too.

 

That makes no sense at all to me. :confused:

 

Last year I spent about $200 on my son's birthday party.  He chose to take 7 friends to see the opening of Star Wars and we opted to take them out for a decent dinner at a Noodle Place, and get the IMAX showing (on Tue, which is discount night.)

 

The kids had a fabulous time and we didn't feel we were overspending.

[Catwoman]

Except when Quill says she doesn't want her kid going on that type of vacation at 12 because of her and her DH's motives in life for *herself* and her kids, that's not okay and she should let her son go and to not let him go is depriving him.

 

I think she was quite honest about any possible jealousy/envy she had and impressions she had gathered after knowing the family for a long time, but also outlined very clearly her other internal motivations for not wanting her son to go on the trip, motives that were outside of any judgements about the other family and mostly about values about family time, appreciating low-key vacations, etc. People have said she should let him go anyway and took issue with those things as if she were personally critiquing how they live.

I don't think most of us were suggesting that she should let her son go on the trip. I know I wasn't.

 

I think the objections have been mostly about her judgmental attitude toward the other family's lifestyle, and possibly also about the idea that she lets them think she's their friend while she privately seems to have such negative feelings about the way they choose to live their lives. She has made some pretty serious personal judgments about them -- which is fine, but if she has such a negative impression of their values and motivations, it's hard to understand why she would want anyone in her family to be friends with them.

[gardenmom5]

Sure, that’s possible and gifts are not my love language. But honestly - why is it so hard to believe the family might have selfish motives? People do things for a wide range of reasons, from utter altruism to abject malice. Haven’t you ever known anybody who seems generous but their motives might be vain-glorious?

 

again - in a previous post you have described the entire family as "entitled".   if this is really what you think of them,  WHY are you allowing your son to be friends with a family YOU have described as entitled and selfish?  (I've known low income families who were "entitled and selfish" - so that isnt' an "income thing".)

 

 The idea that money is evil is a puritanical notion that needs to go by the wayside. The LOVE of money is evil, but having nice things and experiences isn't. 

 

 

 

yes - this.   it's the love of, the wanting it so much you'll lie cheat and steal to get it for no other reason than to one-up someone else.  that also transcends income levels.

 

Honestly, I haven't seen this.  And I live in a nicer area.

 

But maybe I don't know what you mean by throwing money around.

 

I live in an affluent area (there is also gov't subsidized housing).  it's the rare upper income person I've seen  flaunting - and usually because of their own insecurity or newness to having money to spend in abundance.    most of those upper income - don't give money much thought and are just  going about their lives.

[EmseB]

I was responding to the poster whom I quoted, about her thoughts that I quoted.

 

I feel like I'm missing something because I'm not sure why you're replying to tell me that. Yes, of course, that's what you did. :confused1:

 

I was using your post to further contribute to the thread based off of the entirety of the posts I've read. I thought that's what we do here.

[Lady Florida.]

I haven't even finished the thread and I already have a bunch of quoted posts (and a ton of likes), so I'm just going to stop reading/quoting and post my own responses.
 

I don’t think the entitlement comes from the trips/things - I think it comes from parental attitudes/lack of discussions, etc.

My kids had more travel/stuff than many of their peers, but I’m pretty sure they weren’t “entitled†because they did see how most of their friends lived, and because we did a lot of talking about values and what was important, etc.

Anne

 
Entitlement is taught and has little to do with how wealthy a family is or isn't.
 

But as far as not wanting him to have memories with other people, or experiences with them - I don't think that is how relationships work.  Good relationships, friendships, love - they don't get used up, or make other relationships less.  The chance to have good friends, become part of a second family, have exciting opportunities, does not diminish others, or your family.  Keeping a child from them doesn't make the family stronger.

 
Yes to this. Hearts are big enough for many relationships and many different kinds of relationships. One doesn't take away from the other, or rather it doesn't if all the relationships are healthy.
 

I don’t even think that necessarily makes kids entitled. They’re questioning things that are different than what they’re used to. They’re used to having an open snack cupboard or a Mom who runs to chick fil a. In my kids’ experience, everyone has streaming Amazon prime and Netflix and iPhones. They’re used to being able to FaceTime with whom ever they want. If someone had, say, a non smart phone, they’d question it to. Not out of entitlement but just because they’re kids and it’s out of their realm of experience.

 
 

Where is the line though?  What might seem like waste or frivolity to you might not be to someone else.
I would never say that someone with an iphone who goes to Chick-Fil-A has set any min. standard.  It is just a different choice.

 
Yes to both of these. Our homeschool group (which is where ds and I both made good friends and lasting friendships) had quite a mix of economic groups. Some had more disposable income than us, some less, some the same, and some had to struggle to make ends meet with nothing leftover for the extras. Some who were about equal to us had more children and therefore the same amount of money didn't go as far. We taught ds about the differences. We also taught him that all things being equal, families choose different ways to spend their extra money. Different isn't better or worse. It's just different.
 

 
 

Okay Quill, here's my honest opinion...
 
I think it's one thing to have reasons for him to not go on the trip, because you're the parents.      
 
BUT, I do think it's a bit much for you to be upset because they made the offer.   Assuming they will be cool with it when you decline.    Maybe I missed something?

 
This is what I don't understand either.
 

 
 

It’s more that I’m upset that this is a “thing.†DH and I have talked a LOT about how this family *always* has to have friends there for the kids. Like, if one kid is going to have a friend sleep over, they will call us right up so the other kid can have a friend too. Or, they will want ds to stay for days and it just seems so excessive to me. Or, like, it can’t just be that ds sleeps over and that’s fun, it’s like there has to be some big entertainment aspect to it, like they have to go to the movies or do lazer tag or whatever.

So it’s not that I’m mad they asked. It’s more that I’m annoyed *anyone* thinks this is how family vacations ought to be done. Some of it is just I don’t like the societal direction of kids have to have everything catered up the wazoo.

My snappy remark when DH told me of the offer was, “Haven’t they ever heard of a FAMILY vacation?â€

I’m also just under a ton or pressure at the moment and I’m not in a good spot.

So this brings me to answer your question. You didn't say JAWM, so I won't. You already decided on your answer but you didn't ask us what we would do, only how we would feel.

 

"Would this bother you?" No. It wouldn't. In fact ds has a friend whose family often invited him to do things with them - big things, though not as big as an out of the country vacation. He was an only child and so is ds. That kid's extended family is all out of state so he didn't even have cousins around like ds did. They invited ds to things I knew we couldn't reciprocate (or wouldn't because we just chose different ways to spend our money). It didn't bother me. Sometimes we were able to say yes, sometimes the answer was no. Either way, we were pleased that they wanted to include ds in their plans.

 
I can understand some of your reasons for saying no (though I don't understand they envy) but I truly don't understand why the fact that it's a "thing" bothers you. This is what the family likes to do - invite a friend for their son. 
 

Also, not that they are big things, but there would be some ways we would have to spend money to let ds go on the trip. For starters, his passport is expired. And I would not send him along without a dime to his name. And also, I’m extremely uncomfortable for his safety a jillion miles from home (this is the main thing that bothers DH).

Those are quite valid reasons for saying no.

[Jenn in FL]

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Guilty as charged!!!! :lol:

 

 

This comment is so funny on so many levels!!!!

 

I'm a fan...

 

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  

[Catwoman]

After reading the entire thread I think you are reacting to things people haven't said.

I'm going to have to disagree with you about that, but I always respect your opinions and we're probably just interpreting posts in different ways, so I hope we can just agree to disagree on this. :)

[SKL]

If I heard that my kids' friends' moms thought I was sharing for selfish reasons, I would be very hurt.  That said, there really is no good way to explain motivations.  Basically I do stuff because it is easy and a lot of other things I have to do are hard.  But if I say spending is easy for me, why that's all kinds of wrong. 

 

Basically I'm just like every other busy mom - I don't have much energy left for entertaining, especially as an introvert.  I want the easiest thing.  If that means taking the kids to a movie/activity and out to eat, so be it.  The kids are happy, I'm happy, let's all be happy and move on.

[marbel]

As far as "throwing money around" making other people unhappy....

 

Most people would agree that if they have money and time, they will use some of the money to do fun things.

 

Yes I know Quill is not complaining about that.  BUT.  A family who decides to go on a fabulous vacation really only has two choices.  1. Conspicuously "throw money around" and not share, or 2. Conspicuously "throw money around" and share.

 

It's pretty hard to go on an international vacation without your friends knowing about it.

 

So unless international vacations are just wrong (and I'm going straight to hell), there seems no way to do this right.

 

<snip>

 

I disagree.

 

There are families who take a fabulous vacation every year (sharing or not sharing, I don't care which) who approach it with a sense of wonder, of "wow, we are so fortunate/blessed to be able to do this."  They are humble about it in their attitude.  Maybe they live frugally all year to afford it, or whatever.  it doesn't matter. Their attitude is one of humility.  They don't feel they deserve (are entitled to) these trips and see them as a gift. 

 

Then there are families who take fabulous vacations every year, take care that everyone knows about their yearly trip, where they are going this year, and how much they deserve this trip because, well, they just do, and wonder aloud why everyone isn't taking a vacation like that. Every facebook/instagram post is designed to make people feel envious of them.

 

Of course there are attitudes in between.  

 

I think people are being disingenuous if they say they have never known (or known of, if not personally) people like the second set I described.  

Edited November 29, 2017 by marbel

[DawnM]

And why, again, is this a problem?  It seems to me it's just because it's not how you would spend your money.  If they have it and want to do it (the whole competition thing), WTH is wrong with it?  The Ben and Jerry's truck sounds awesome IMO!

 

There are plenty of things my parents did when I grew up that I don't do now.  I don't think they were wrong with their choices.  I just prefer other options instead.  Kids who go to these things or who have parents who do them are not ruined.  I see more problems with the kids of those who are so judgmental about others who differ from their family.

 

Well, we homeschoolers DID used to go to Ben and Jerry's every April for free cone day.   We would get there at 11 when they opened, get a free cone, eat it while in line for a 2nd, and socialize as we went.

 

B&J said this was perfectly fine, we weren't trying to sneak in again.  And we did donate to whatever cause they had.

 

But we loved free B&J day, it was an annual tradition among our group of friends.

[itsheresomewhere]

OT- but the Ben and Jerry’s truck was kind of genius. Think about it- you have to consume the sweet there and not bring it home for later.

[TechWife]

My point had nothing to do with entitlement (I only bolded it because you did. :D) It had everything to do with honesty. And if you don't tell your son about the trip, you are being secretive and dishonest with him. He's 12 years old. Why you would want to keep this a secret from a 12yo is beyond me. And if he's as happy-go-lucky as you say he is, and that he will be fine with your decision, that is all the more reason to be honest with him.

Choosing not to tell a child about something like this isn’t secretive, it’s discerning. It isn’t as if she’s choosing not to tell him something that will actually impact his daily life. If she were choosing not to tell him about a terminal illness in his own family, I might take issue with that, but it’s a vacation trip.

Like Quill said, it isn’t a tragedy if her son finds our someone else went with the friend. It’s just life.

[ktgrok]

Good grief, man.

 

I was talking about a general attitude in some circles. You’re saying you haven’t ever witnessed it? Lucky you. There was one mom friend I had for a year or two when my first child was born. She had the attitude I am talking about. She bought gold jewelry for her dd to wear. She wanted her kid to be the WOW kid. She talked about Gymboree classes and wanted me to join. I could not afford to at the time and didn’t. But I do remember one time she gushed about another little girl there and how she was dressed in Blah, Blah, Blah and had jewelry everywhere jewelry can be hung and then said, “I hate when people out-baby me!†Umm...okay. I have a feeling we aren’t going to be friends for long.

 

Is it judgemental that I think someone is kind of a shitty mom if her main goal in going to a baby play class is having the topmost bougie baby in the class? Probably. But yeah, I judge that as crappy. We did not remain friends because her main discussion point at all times was fashion and money and nice houses and clothes. She urged me to finish certain things on my house. She badgered me about buying new clothes. She wanted me to go along wih things like entering the girls in a Beautiful Baby contest.

 

If you haven’t met any moms like this, I consider you lucky.

 

See, now I would agree that trying to pressure YOU to do these things is tacky and rude. But just doing them, because they enjoy doing them, I don't find awful at all.  But I grew up in a working class neighborhood that was a suburb of Palm Beach, so a LOT of different income levels. I had friends that were poor and friends that were wealthy. Some did do things like spend tons of money on baby outfits and baby jewelry. One old friend of mine posted the GIANT doll house she bought her daughter. And she several times a year spends nights away, all over the country, to see concerts. Her house is ridiculous. Etc etc. And yet, I don't see her as throwing her wealth around AT ALL. She's enjoying her wealth, not showing it off. 

 

Now if she started being demeaning to those who have less, and can't do those things, yes, I'd be upset about that. Maybe that's what you meant all along? 

[MissShellyA]

I think you're being incredibly selfish. You want to limit your son's experience because you feel bad about it? This has nothing to do with kids being entitled. You're clearly just jealous that you aren't keeping up with the Jones' and you are willing to make your son miss out on a memorable experience because of it. He's lucky to have been invited on such a fun trip with his friend and I think it would be really unfair of you to take that away from him for literally no good reason other than your own hurt feelings.

[ktgrok]

Are you really saying that there isn’t a problematic consumerism underlying some of this behavior? That some of these people aren’t deriving their self-worth from how much money and stuff they can get? And that deriving your self-worth from how much you happen to be lucky enough to make and spend isn’t problematic?

 

I'm sure some are. But many aren't. I posted about my friend that has tons of money (grew up well off and then married into a ton more wealth...I still don't know what exactly he husband does for a living). She spends a lot too, and some of it sure LOOKS frivolous. But she's not doing it to show off, or to make herself feel better, or derive her self worth from it. She does it because she enjoys some of the experiences and things that money can buy. 

 

If I had lots of money I'd sure have nice jewelry, and a nice car, and a personal shopper to buy clothes so I could avoid the mall, etc. Not to show off my wealth or derive my worth from my jewelry, but because I have a love of fine jewelry. 

 

Of course, my friend is well educated, religious, and the sweetest, most genuine nice person. Having more money than me, and enjoying nice things, doesn't make her less enlightened or whatever. 

[DawnM]

I think you're being incredibly selfish. You want to limit your son's experience because you feel bad about it? This has nothing to do with kids being entitled. You're clearly just jealous that you aren't keeping up with the Jones' and you are willing to make your son miss out on a memorable experience because of it. He's lucky to have been invited on such a fun trip with his friend and I think it would be really unfair of you to take that away from him for literally no good reason other than your own hurt feelings.

 

I know you only have 25 posts so far and I don't know who you are, but this was not kind or helpful and some of this could have been said a much nicer way.

 

Quill is a long time poster who is well liked and known.  The fact that I disagree with her on this is ok.

Edited November 29, 2017 by DawnM

[katilac]

Using the Ben & Jerry's truck as an example... maybe the family wanted to do a kind and generous thing for the neighborhood kids because they thought it would be a fun surprise for them.

 

 

 

I agree - why not assume the best until proven otherwise? And, if they are deriving some of their self-worth from being able to do extravagant things, that may be psychologically unhealthy, but it doesn't make them bad people. 

 

I for one am very grateful to the random strangers who threw money around and made my childhood more fun, lol. Some of the people who put up extravagant holiday lights and displays may very well be trying to one-up one another, but driving around to look at those lights is a cherished childhood memory for me. As is catching beads and trinkets at Mardi Gras parades. Riding in a Mardi Gras parade is always expensive, it's something most people can't do, but their 'showing off' creates a lot of happiness for a lot of people. 

 

Do I ever see parents using their money to show off? Yes, of course, but it's nothing new. I saw it 25 years ago when my nephews were growing up, and I saw it 40 years ago when I was growing up. But simply having money and spending it, even extravagantly, does not equal bad people who are trying to show off.  

 

Quill, I didn't read the whole six pages, and I can't quite remember if you have older kids or not. From what I did read, I think your feelings about extravagance are complicated by and entangled with your introverted tendencies, and your desire to do most things as a family. I will say that I think we, particularly as homeschool parents, do need to move out of our comfort zone sometimes. It's natural for kids to spend more time with others as they approach the teen years. I miss the days of everyone being home in the evening, and seeing movies together instead of them going with their friends, but they are creating great memories and moving towards independence, which is all good. 

 

I also think most people easily recognize the difference between innocent entitlement (why do you share a room?) and arrogant entitlement (ugh, I would never share a room). 

[DawnM]

Are you really saying that there isn’t a problematic consumerism underlying some of this behavior? That some of these people aren’t deriving their self-worth from how much money and stuff they can get? And that deriving your self-worth from how much you happen to be lucky enough to make and spend isn’t problematic?

 

Of course SOME people are!  But not everyone.  I think that is the point here.

 

We could not provide a nicer college on my husband's salary alone.  I went  back to work, problem solved (for us!)

 

For ME, the key is to live within my means and even a bit below.  I don't feel I have anything to prove to those who are wealthier than I am, but I also don't feel I need to make apologies for what we do have.  We both work for our money.

 

If we were truly wealthy, we wouldn't work at all, or we would work in the family business and in homes purchased through the family trust and we wouldn't need a mortgage to pay for it.

[ktgrok]

You know, I DID know ONE person that I felt was in th eline of "housewives" of wherever. Ugh. What's funny is she dressed in a tank top and yoga pants every day and never did her hair or whatever, but talked nonstop about wealth. She DID treat money as a competition, and would marry for wealth and then divorce even better, and then repeat the cycle. ICK. But even she joked about it a bit and realized it wasn't the end all be all of everything.....she was actually very nice to be around, as long as you felt okay rolling your eyes about the money stuff, lol. 

[DawnM]

You know, I DID know ONE person that I felt was in th eline of "housewives" of wherever. Ugh. What's funny is she dressed in a tank top and yoga pants every day and never did her hair or whatever, but talked nonstop about wealth. She DID treat money as a competition, and would marry for wealth and then divorce even better, and then repeat the cycle. ICK. But even she joked about it a bit and realized it wasn't the end all be all of everything.....she was actually very nice to be around, as long as you felt okay rolling your eyes about the money stuff, lol. 

 

You reminded me.

 

A friend in OC owns some rental properties.  He was telling me he gets a lot of "former" wives of rock stars who want to rent from him.  They drive $150K cars, have had multiple plastic surgeries, hire personal trainers, etc..... but have horrible credit and he often wont' rent to them.  They don't seem to allocate their alimony well because they haven't ever earned the money themselves.  

 

But they will say, "Do you know who I am?  I am the first wife of (insert actor, rock star, etc...), so dang-it, you should rent to me!"

[SKL]

I disagree.

 

There are families who take a fabulous vacation every year (sharing or not sharing, I don't care which) who approach it with a sense of wonder, of "wow, we are so fortunate/blessed to be able to do this."  They are humble about it in their attitude.  Maybe they live frugally all year to afford it, or whatever.  it doesn't matter. Their attitude is one of humility.  They don't feel they deserve (are entitled to) these trips and see them as a gift. 

 

Then there are families who take fabulous vacations every year, take care that everyone knows about their yearly trip, where they are going this year, and how much they deserve this trip because, well, they just do, and wonder aloud why everyone isn't taking a vacation like that. Every facebook/instagram post is designed to make people feel envious of them.

 

Of course there are attitudes in between.  

 

I think people are being disingenuous if they say they have never known (or known of, if not personally) people like the second set I described.  

 

Or maybe the trip just simply "is," and why would I bare my soul to the world about how I feel about my blessings?  Not everyone is gushy like that.  Just like I'm not selfish just because I don't tell the world about my donations, I'm not entitled just because I don't tell the world how I feel about my blessings.  Most people really don't want to know.

 

And I don't believe I should feel guilty about traveling.  It's like Christmas and birthdays.  When we celebrate, it doesn't mean we're "entitled," it's just something we do.  Why should travel be in a special "open to judgment" category?

 

I post my travels on facebook because that is how I let my family know we're all right, and where to look for us if we are suddenly unreachable.  Most people are happy to see a few shots of what we are seeing.  The benefits outweigh the possibility that someone out there is offended by my "showing off."

[Guest]

Peace out, friends. There doesn’t seem to be any more useful dialouge I can contribute at this point.

[Scarlett]

Quill I take your word for it that you get a vibe about these people that they are trying to be showy with their generosity. I assume you know them better than we can.

 

 

 

 

[StephanieZ]

WHAT????? You think that those of us that aren't middle-class DON'T VALUE family closeness????????????????? YOU ARE WRONG. I rarely say that, but that is so ugly, I can't believe you would say that. We've moved from "middle class" to "lower upper income" over the years and most certainly value family closeness. As do MOST people I know at our income level. What a horrible stereotypical thing for you to say, which shocks me, coming from you. 

 

Absolutely agree with this.

 

My family is "upper income" . . . we take our kids on fancy vacations, and we take fancy vacations just me and my spouse, too. We also have a one-income family when I could earn a pretty good salary if I went out and got a job . . . because we prioritize time together, homeschooling, etc, that having me as a SAHM helps us do. Dh has always taken time with our family as a priority, even when we were flat broke and we take a huge financial hit for every day he takes off . . . 

 

I have many friends who are similarly "upper income" and also have one spouse full time at home, spending heaps of time with the family including homeschooling, etc. In fact, it's being in the "upper income" bracket that allows many families the luxury of having one parent home full time. Just because one or both partners have the ability to earn 60-200/hr instead of 12-20/hr and thus can be "upper income" doesn't mean they prioritize family time any less than a family with lower earnings. Indeed, we have taken many of our biggest financial risks (educational and business debt, etc.) in order to maximize our income *for the purpose of* "buying" time with our family. Similarly, we work hard to be frugal and save for the future so that we'll be able to spend time with our adult children and future grand kids . . . And, we encourage our adult kids to consider income-potential for careers/education because we have found that having money can buy you time. If a spouse (or both spouses) is (are) able to be a high earner(s), that can equate to being able to work less, work PT, have one partner at home. etc. I have numerous friends who have very-high-income potential (MDs, vets, lawyers, dentists, etc.) who have chosen to totally quit work to focus on their family and/or are able to work fewer hours and/or take positions with better flexibility/etc . . . in order to buy them time with their families. 

 

My mom and dad were high earners. So is my only aunt. They each have/do prioritize time with family as their highest priority. I've known plenty of low wage earners, too, and, from what I've seen, they value family just as much as high earners, but struggle much more to balance their time with their loved ones with the critical need to provide basics for those loved ones. 

 

I think the negative assumptions about those with more wealth than you happen to have . . . are really sad and ugly, and no less sad and ugly than when those with more wealth assume that those with less aren't as hard working or as caring . . . It's just class-warfare ugliness. And utterly false and hurtful to everyone involved. 

 

I had one situation recently where someone expressed (repeatedly) some very negative assumptions/suspicions about my motivations with respect to my actions towards their family/child. (Anyone who read my thread a while back about whether to call CPS can rightly guess the situation that I'm referencing.) While I utterly understand the hurt and anger the person felt due to my actions, I was/am flabbergasted that anyone who could *think I might* have hateful / malicious motivations in my actions towards their family . . . would want their child and themselves to continue to have *any interactions with me whatsoever*. Personally, if I even suspected that some adult had malevolent impulses towards me or my family, I'd cease all interactions with them to the greatest degree possible. (And surely not continue to send my kid to spend time with the person whose motives I suspected could be malevolent.) Given the delicate situation involved and the fragile nature of the child involved, I have decided to simply swallow the negative feelings and accept the risks involved for myself and my family, in order to do what I feel is in the best interest of a very vulnerable child. . . so I retain contact with the family, while carefully protecting my own child and family from any associated risks -- to my best ability. If it were any other situation (where I wasn't concerned for the safety of a child), I wouldn't be willing to be "friends" with this person at all. As it is, I just accept the negative impacts on myself/my family as worth it due to my commitment to continue to do what is reasonably within my power to help the child and family. In a situation like Quill has described, where it was just another good family who didn't *need* my continued friendship . . . I would GREATLY prefer to cease all contact and never hear from them again. It's not right or decent to act as a "friend" to a family whose motives and values you judge to be so repellant.  

 

So, anyway, Quill, I'd encourage you to cut all contact with this family since you clearly suspect them of being really shitty people. If you're right, and they're shitty people, then you should remove your young son from their influence. If you're wrong, and you're wrongly ascribing them ugly motives and/or ugly values, then you owe it to them to remove your hateful attitudes from their lives (and especially from exposing their child to your feelings, which are going to come across one way or another, no matter what you think). Seems like a no brainer to find ways to end this friendship. . .  

 

. . . unless you think you might see things differently in some days/weeks of recovery from whatever stressors are making you have a hard time right now. In which case, take some time out casually, nurture yourself, give and receive plenty of (((hugs))) . . .and I hope tomorrow is a better day. 

[creekland]

Just adding in on here that I am off on a board break for a bit - NOT due to anything someone posted, just due to things going on in my life. Those things aren't even related to wealth or travel. ;)

[Scarlett]

Absolutely agree with this.

 

My family is "upper income" . . . we take our kids on fancy vacations, and we take fancy vacations just me and my spouse, too. We also have a one-income family when I could earn a pretty good salary if I went out and got a job . . . because we prioritize time together, homeschooling, etc, that having me as a SAHM helps us do. Dh has always taken time with our family as a priority, even when we were flat broke and we take a huge financial hit for every day he takes off . . . 

 

I have many friends who are similarly "upper income" and also have one spouse full time at home, spending heaps of time with the family including homeschooling, etc. In fact, it's being in the "upper income" bracket that allows many families the luxury of having one parent home full time. Just because one or both partners have the ability to earn 60-200/hr instead of 12-20/hr and thus can be "upper income" doesn't mean they prioritize family time any less than a family with lower earnings. Indeed, we have taken many of our biggest financial risks (educational and business debt, etc.) in order to maximize our income *for the purpose of* "buying" time with our family. Similarly, we work hard to be frugal and save for the future so that we'll be able to spend time with our adult children and future grand kids . . . And, we encourage our adult kids to consider income-potential for careers/education because we have found that having money can buy you time. If a spouse (or both spouses) is (are) able to be a high earner(s), that can equate to being able to work less, work PT, have one partner at home. etc. I have numerous friends who have very-high-income potential (MDs, vets, lawyers, dentists, etc.) who have chosen to totally quit work to focus on their family and/or are able to work fewer hours and/or take positions with better flexibility/etc . . . in order to buy them time with their families. 

 

My mom and dad were high earners. So is my only aunt. They each have/do prioritize time with family as their highest priority. I've known plenty of low wage earners, too, and, from what I've seen, they value family just as much as high earners, but struggle much more to balance their time with their loved ones with the critical need to provide basics for those loved ones. 

 

I think the negative assumptions about those with more wealth than you happen to have . . . are really sad and ugly, and no less sad and ugly than when those with more wealth assume that those with less aren't as hard working or as caring . . . It's just class-warfare ugliness. And utterly false and hurtful to everyone involved. 

 

I had one situation recently where someone expressed (repeatedly) some very negative assumptions/suspicions about my motivations with respect to my actions towards their family/child. (Anyone who read my thread a while back about whether to call CPS can rightly guess the situation that I'm referencing.) While I utterly understand the hurt and anger the person felt due to my actions, I was/am flabbergasted that anyone who could *think I might* have hateful / malicious motivations in my actions towards their family . . . would want their child and themselves to continue to have *any interactions with me whatsoever*. Personally, if I even suspected that some adult had malevolent impulses towards me or my family, I'd cease all interactions with them to the greatest degree possible. (And surely not continue to send my kid to spend time with the person whose motives I suspected could be malevolent.) Given the delicate situation involved and the fragile nature of the child involved, I have decided to simply swallow the negative feelings and accept the risks involved for myself and my family, in order to do what I feel is in the best interest of a very vulnerable child. . . so I retain contact with the family, while carefully protecting my own child and family from any associated risks -- to my best ability. If it were any other situation (where I wasn't concerned for the safety of a child), I wouldn't be willing to be "friends" with this person at all. As it is, I just accept the negative impacts on myself/my family as worth it due to my commitment to continue to do what is reasonably within my power to help the child and family. In a situation like Quill has described, where it was just another good family who didn't *need* my continued friendship . . . I would GREATLY prefer to cease all contact and never hear from them again. It's not right or decent to act as a "friend" to a family whose motives and values you judge to be so repellant.  

 

So, anyway, Quill, I'd encourage you to cut all contact with this family since you clearly suspect them of being really shitty people. If you're right, and they're shitty people, then you should remove your young son from their influence. If you're wrong, and you're wrongly ascribing them ugly motives and/or ugly values, then you owe it to them to remove your hateful attitudes from their lives (and especially from exposing their child to your feelings, which are going to come across one way or another, no matter what you think). Seems like a no brainer to find ways to end this friendship. . .  

 

. . . unless you think you might see things differently in some days/weeks of recovery from whatever stressors are making you have a hard time right now. In which case, take some time out casually, nurture yourself, give and receive plenty of (((hugs))) . . .and I hope tomorrow is a better day. 

 

 

The thing is.....they can be flawed (as we all are) in this area and yet not so horrible that they need to be written off as friends.  She was just doing some venting and reflecting.  

[marbel]

Or maybe the trip just simply "is," and why would I bare my soul to the world about how I feel about my blessings?  Not everyone is gushy like that.  Just like I'm not selfish just because I don't tell the world about my donations, I'm not entitled just because I don't tell the world how I feel about my blessings.  Most people really don't want to know.

 

And I don't believe I should feel guilty about traveling.  It's like Christmas and birthdays.  When we celebrate, it doesn't mean we're "entitled," it's just something we do.  Why should travel be in a special "open to judgment" category?

 

I post my travels on facebook because that is how I let my family know we're all right, and where to look for us if we are suddenly unreachable.  Most people are happy to see a few shots of what we are seeing.  The benefits outweigh the possibility that someone out there is offended by my "showing off."

 

Well, obviously I can't convey my thoughts on this properly.  It seems very simple to me, but apparently is not.

 

It's not about posting or not posting on facebook.  It's not about being gushy or baring one's soul. It's not about feeling guilty, don't even know where that came from. It's not about having money or not having money.  It's about the attitudes people possess and display whether in person or online.  

 

But re: the bolded - that's actually a good example but not the way you are thinking.  Yesterday was "Giving Tuesday" and my Facebook feed was full of requests for donations. And, of course, full of people posting about the donations they'd made - that's virtue signaling and has nothing to do with how generous a person is. Why do people need to show off their charitable donations?  I don't assume that a person who doesn't tell the world about their donations is selfish.  I assume they feel no need to tell the world about their donations.  

Edited November 29, 2017 by marbel

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I feel like I'm missing something because I'm not sure why you're replying to tell me that. Yes, of course, that's what you did. :confused1:

 

I was using your post to further contribute to the thread based off of the entirety of the posts I've read. I thought that's what we do here.

No, I meant that I was responding to a concept that scholastica was putting forth as a *general* principle, and explaining why I disagreed that said principle could be applied to others objectively, without actually making it *specifically* about Quill, as I didn't think Quill had been applying that principle (or judgment) willy nilly, nor did I believe that scholastica meant to speak for or represent Quill.

[SKL]

Well, obviously I can't convey my thoughts on this properly.  It seems very simple to me, but apparently is not.

 

It's not about posting or not posting on facebook.  It's not about being gushy or baring one's soul. It's not about feeling guilty, don't even know where that came from. It's not about having money or not having money.  It's about the attitudes people possess and display whether in person or online.  

 

But re: the bolded - that's actually a good example but not the way you are thinking.  Yesterday was "Giving Tuesday" and my Facebook feed was full of requests for donations. And, of course, full of people posting about the donations they'd made - that's virtue signaling and has nothing to do with how generous a person is. Why do people need to show off their charitable donations?  I don't assume people who don't tell the world about their donations is selfish.  I assume they have no need to tell the world about their donations.  

 

Right, so why do you assume that people who don't gush "I'm so blessed to be able to travel" feel entitled?

 

Personally, if I was going to talk about my blessings, I would not be focusing on my vacations but about having healthy kids, being able to meet said kids' basic needs, loving family, health, and lots of other things that are a bigger deal than whether I can get on a plane and fly over the ocean. 

 

Besides that, I don't see how saying "I am so blessed" before "look at my vacation photos" makes any difference.  It reminds me of a recent brag post I saw on fb about yet another one of my friend's kids being labeled "gifted."  She went on to say how blessed she was to have multiple gifted kids.  OK whatever.  Guess some of us are on God's bad side these days, as proven by our kids' academic struggles.

 

And while I certainly have many blessings, didn't we have a post on here recently where it was argued that attributing good fortune to "God's blessings" is a swipe against those to whom those fortunes have been denied?

[marbel]

Right, so why do you assume that people who don't gush "I'm so blessed to be able to travel" feel entitled?

 

Personally, if I was going to talk about my blessings, I would not be focusing on my vacations but about having healthy kids, being able to meet said kids' basic needs, loving family, health, and lots of other things that are a bigger deal than whether I can get on a plane and fly over the ocean. 

 

Besides that, I don't see how saying "I am so blessed" before "look at my vacation photos" makes any difference.  It reminds me of a recent brag post I saw on fb about yet another one of my friend's kids being labeled "gifted."  She went on to say how blessed she was to have multiple gifted kids.  OK whatever.  Guess some of us are on God's bad side these days, as proven by our kids' academic struggles.

 

And while I certainly have many blessings, didn't we have a post on here recently where it was argued that attributing good fortune to "God's blessings" is a swipe against those to whom those fortunes have been denied?

 

LOL, did you read any other part of the post you quoted?  

 

This seems to be a hot button issue for you. I noticed that upthread you said you felt "attacked" by Quill's OP. And you seem really intent on arguing so... there's really nothing more I can say.  

Edited November 29, 2017 by marbel

[gardenmom5]

re: my kids have been to spendy birthday parties.  the parents had the money, and it's easier for them to spend it and have someone else do the work.  they can enjoy their child's birthday more.

I dont' do spendy birthdays - but we have LAN parties (advantages of geeky children) and the kids have a blast.  every single parent who has hosted a spendy party - has at one time or another said, some variation of, "I could never do that".

to me, the most important thing was - the kids had fun.

 

I agree - why not assume the best until proven otherwise?

 

Life is so much more pleasant when being willing to give the benefit of the doubt.  

and when you know someone has carpy motives - it can really annoy them by being cheerful. ;)

Peace out, friends. There doesn’t seem to be any more useful dialouge I can contribute at this point.

 

I would still like answers to my questions, or maybe not and it is something you should just answer to yourself.

in multiple posts, you have stated you find this family entitled and selfish.  WHY are you allowing your son to be friends with them?   those are character issues that are big flags, and I wouldn't allow my minor kids to associate with such just because of the potential negative "character" influence.

 

 

we encourage our adult kids to consider income-potential for careers/education because we have found that having money can buy you time.

 

 

 

So, anyway, Quill, I'd encourage you to cut all contact with this family since you clearly suspect them of being really shitty people. If you're right, and they're shitty people, then you should remove your young son from their influence. If you're wrong, and you're wrongly ascribing them ugly motives and/or ugly values, then you owe it to them to remove your hateful attitudes from their lives (and especially from exposing their child to your feelings, which are going to come across one way or another, no matter what you think). Seems like a no brainer to find ways to end this friendship. . .  

 

. . . unless you think you might see things differently in some days/weeks of recovery from whatever stressors are making you have a hard time right now. In which case, take some time out casually, nurture yourself, give and receive plenty of (((hugs))) . . .and I hope tomorrow is a better day. 

 

I also strongly encouraged - especially my girls - to get the skills to earn a decent income.   mostly because unemployment happens, death and disability happen, divorce happens even to the kindest people, etc.

 

I know, if I found out one of my kids friends thought that about me, I'd be hurt.  I'd also be wondering what the motives were for being friends with my child.  I'd be leery, and feel defensive.   in any case, it will no longer be a relaxed and enjoyable friendship because it would have too many "ifs".

[TravelingChris]

We always talked to our kids when they were younger about how different families make different choices regarding money and that is fine.  Though what kids think is great and wonderful and privelige doesn;t necessarily run to the same things as adults.  My youngest had twice made friends with kids who didn't get any home cooked meals.  In both cases, all food was from fast food or supermarket take- out.  Both of those kids thought my daughter was very priveleged because she got home cooked meals and there was food in the house.  These were not poor kids- just kids of parents who did not cook.  My kids didn't like it that they had no cousins.   

 

As to family closeness- I have seen close families in all income brackets. I have seen estranged families in different income levels too.  But personally, and statistics bears this out, more elite families tend to stay married more than less elite families. (Coming Apart)   

 

I have friends and acquaintances from many different income levels.  I don't know- the people I know who have a lot of money do not flaunt wealth.  They go about their daily lives.  ANd they have heartbreak like everyone else including children dying from cancer, fires, etc, etc, etc. 

[eternalsummer]

Your point escapes me.

 

This thread is not a rant against wealth. It’s not an assumption that no one should have nice things or do enjoyable things with their money. For twenty years, I have recognized that the ability to live on one income is itself a fantastic luxury. I live a life that is fantastically comfortable compared to how I grew up.

 

I did not say or mean that ALL people who grow up with perks will be selfish jerks.

 

But you've said nothing about this family to suggest they are selfish jerks except the fact that they have money and spend it on things you wouldn't spend it on or don't spend it on.

 

I'm saying that you, Quill, have money others don't have and spend it on things others wouldn't spend it on, and you don't consider yourself an entitled spoiled jerk, so what makes you think this family has some sort of moral deficiency?  It can't be just that they have money and spend it in ways you wouldn't, because you yourself do that in comparison to other people.

[Guest]

I would still like answers to my questions, or maybe not and it is something you should just answer to yourself.

in multiple posts, you have stated you find this family entitled and selfish. WHY are you allowing your son to be friends with them? those are character issues that are big flags, and I wouldn't allow my minor kids to associate with such just because of the potential negative "character" influence.

I answered this queston when I said they are 98% fine. I doubt I have any friends who value exactly what I value and dislike all the things I dislike.

[Carol in Cal.]

Now I want a Ben and Jerry's truck to hand out ice cream on my street. 

 

Nah, if we are doing wishful thinking here I am holding out for a taco cart that serves free margaritas.