Would you be bothered? Extravagant friends

[Joker]

I don't think I'd have a problem with much of what you posted. I love to travel with my dc but if someone offered a trip I couldn't give them, I would probably jump at it. I will agree that if it involved a lot of water activities at 12 that I would probably pass. I don't see a big problem with having friends along on trips or having friends over for days at a time. I grew up in a home where one or four of us would have some friends over for a weekend or longer. Those people are very close to me even today and I'm thankful for that. 

 

I'm a serious introvert though and have to work at meeting the needs of my dc. I don't at all think it makes someone entitled to travel or even have their parents make them super important (to them, not everyone else and there is a difference). My dc know that I will not make them the most important person to others but they are very important to me and I do cater to them a bit. That has to do with my, and dh's, own circumstances and how we parent and I can't imagine anyone outside of us thinking they could judge us. My dc are now 18 and 15 and go out of their way to help others and not be the center of attention. So, being our center hasn't made them super entitled or spoiled.

 

We live in an affluent area and my dc have many friends who have much than us. Those kids are amazing and so far from what some here think of those with wealth. These kids actually give me hope for the future and are far from entitled and spoiled. 

[Corraleno]

I think taking research on a group of people that lived over 100 years ago and trying to apply it to our culture today is not really a good idea. Fussell, whom I have never heard of, sounds kind of arrogant. I learned my sociology in a small, non-selective public university in the deep south, FWIW. There's no way to tell which of us got the better education based upon the facts given, though.

Perhaps the reason you didn't learn about Fussell in your sociology classes is because he was actually an English professor, who also wrote snarky essays about class based on his personal opinions rather than any real research. Call me crazy, but I'm not willing to accept the curmudgeonly ramblings of a guy born nearly a century ago, who got a PhD in 18th century English poetry in 1952, as proof that rich people hate their kids.  :001_rolleyes:

[Bootsie]

No. I took the same trip AS MY SIL just recently took and in which she also brought their kids plus an extra friend to entertain their dd. In 2011, DH and I went on a cruise; I would have loved to take the kids but would either never go, or not go until all my kids have moved out, or go and leave them with gma. So we went and left them with gma.

 

The trip my son is being invited on is probably not one I will ever take unless I win it or something.

I look at my friends who go on trips with their spouses without kids and I think "How extravagant!"  DH and I haven't been in a situation very often where we had someone we could leave the kids with for us to travel.  We have been in a situation where we can travel with kids (and even have them invite a friend)--so I guess extravagance is in the eye of the beholder.  

[SKL]

As the mom of kids who have traveled on 5 continents (soon to be 6), swam with dolphins, parasailed, drank water straight from a glacier, climbed on a volcano, ziplined over a jungle, and much more ... I can say that just because kids do fabulous things once in a while, that doesn't mean they don't value peaceful time with their folks more than anything else in the world.

 

I couldn't imagine going on a fabulous vacation without my kids (while they are young).  Quill can't imagine her kids going on a fabulous vacation without her.  Interesting.

 

I keep thinking about the issue with the parents always inviting a friend for kid 1 if kid 2 has a sleepover.  To me, that would just be a no brainer.  You are giving up your peace and quiet for a night.  Might as well kill two birds with one stone.  That way you only have to spend half as many days hosting others, meaning you have that many more quiet, peaceful nights with your family.

 

I am an introvert, so I would be happier if the sleepover had never been invented.  But I don't want my kids to be the only ones who never have them, so we've had a few.  If I were an extrovert, I'd have more.  In many cultures, "the more the merrier" is normal and our introverted / nuclear family focus is considered weird and bad for kids.

 

And another point - there is a degree of entitled / superior thinking in "protecting my family values."  Is there really any justification for monopolizing our kids so they don't absorb the traditions of other families?  I mean sure, if the family is clearly immoral, but otherwise, I believe it's better for kids to be exposed to different ways and ideas.  We can then discuss why we choose xyz for our family even though it's different from our friends' choice.

 

What I would insist on, though, is that my kid has enough stability and down time to do his job of growing up.  I feel like hopping around from one place to another all the time would make that difficult (though that could be my introversion talking).  But a couple trips a year, some sleepovers now and then, no problem.

 

That said, I think the other family would 100% understand if you said you feel he is too young to take that kind of trip away from his parents.  Or if you said you had planned to do that with him at a later date.

[Guest]

For me, it's a love language issue. Some people's primary love language is gift giving (my Mom's is), so what seems lavish to you might simply be an extension of their love in their eyes. The trick is knowing what the recipient's primary love language is (my husband's is physical touch, so I don't buy gifts for him to show him my love). Now, you might think that gift giving as a primary love language is some sort of character flaw, and you're entitled to that opinion, of course. But, I would venture to guess that you likely just have a different primary love language. And I think it is worth recognizing that different people have different ways of expressing their affection. I mean, my mom tries really hard, but acts of service just aren't her thing -- they never will be -- and I understand that now and appreciate her for who she is (vs. who I might wish her to be).

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Five_Love_Languages

Sure, that’s possible and gifts are not my love language. But honestly - why is it so hard to believe the family might have selfish motives? People do things for a wide range of reasons, from utter altruism to abject malice. Haven’t you ever known anybody who seems generous but their motives might be vain-glorious?

[Guest]

I look at my friends who go on trips with their spouses without kids and I think "How extravagant!" DH and I haven't been in a situation very often where we had someone we could leave the kids with for us to travel. We have been in a situation where we can travel with kids (and even have them invite a friend)--so I guess extravagance is in the eye of the beholder.

We haven’t either. That is the only trip DH and I have taken without kids since we had kids. And shortly after we took it, MIL started with the mental decline, so the opportunity has not arisen again. (And now, someone will point out that at my kids ages, we can go away again, but no we cannot...)

[Laura Corin]

Sure, that’s possible and gifts are not my love language. But honestly - why is it so hard to believe the family might have selfish motives? People do things for a wide range of reasons, from utter altruism to abject malice. Haven’t you ever known anybody who seems generous but their motives might be vain-glorious?

 

I like to assume the best motives unless there is strong evidence otherwise.  I find that it is good for my mood, whether or not it reflects reality.

[Guest]

Personally, I would tell him, and explain your reasoning to him. It would be terrible if he found out that his friend had invited another boy along and didn't invite him. Your son's feelings might be very hurt.

 

Also, your son isn't a little kid any more. I'm sure his friend will say something to him about the trip, and might even ask him why he can't go.

 

I don't think it's right to be dishonest or secretive about this. I think your son has the right to know he was invited.

No, it won’t be terrible if he finds out another boy went, because he doesn’t have that entitled notion that he should get to do and have everything. (See what I did there?) He’s also not a sensitive kid; he’s very happy-go-lucky.

 

If word does get around and DS asks me why we said no, I would tell him he can go on a trip like that when he is independent. Most likely, this is not the last opportunity he will ever have to go on a very nice trip.

[Guest]

I like to assume the best motives unless there is strong evidence otherwise. I find that it is good for my mood, whether or not it reflects reality.

Right, but there are several posters in this thread who seem to believe they have a better handle on what this family does and why than I do. There are posters assuming negative things of me, while assuming positive things about the other famliy.

[Guest]

Why would it be terrible if Quill's son found out his friend invited someone else to go on a trip with him? They aren't married to each other - they are friends. Most people have more than one friend. Many people have more than one really good friend.

 

I wouldn't assume the other boy knew he was being invited. The parents may have decided to extend the invite and only tell their son if Quill's ds was able to join them. Honestly, that's the way that I would handle it. If the friend asked the parents to invite Quill's ds, then they likely told him that it was a decision for the adults to make and that he shouldn't mention it to his friend until they had a chance to discuss it as parents. I know my parents had that little talk with me on more than one occasion about get togethers with friends and other families.

 

Not mentioning this to her son is neither dishonest or secretive. Children aren't entitled to know everything that their parents are doing or the decisions they are presented with.

Exactly.

[Guest]

But Quill, you surely spend a lot more on your kids than people did 50 years ago. They have electronics and sports opportunities and probably more food variety and heck, you homeschool them! Does that make you bad? Does it make them entitled? It's just what you can afford and want to do, is all.

 

Most of us homeschool or have homeschooled our kids, which is generally an expensive proposition - even if it doesn't cost anything directly, the lost income from the extra wage earner is significant. We sacrifice that because we think homeschooling in our situation has some positive benefit that is worth the cost, but it's not because we're overly child-centric or flaunting our wealth (the ability to stay home is wealth) - it's just a choice we've made, that we're lucky to be able to make, about one aspect of child-raising.

 

Some people don't feel that way about homeschooling - they could sacrifice the extra wage and stay home, but they don't. Instead, maybe they spend some of the income on travel sports, or fancy vacations, or a brand new car, or a newer IPhone. Just because they've chosen to spend their earning power in a different way from you doesn't make them elitist snobs who are flaunting their wealth.

Your point escapes me.

 

This thread is not a rant against wealth. It’s not an assumption that no one should have nice things or do enjoyable things with their money. For twenty years, I have recognized that the ability to live on one income is itself a fantastic luxury. I live a life that is fantastically comfortable compared to how I grew up.

 

I did not say or mean that ALL people who grow up with perks will be selfish jerks.

[QueenCat]

For the record, I'm not saying that all families with assets like that are unhappy.  At all. Simply that it's not as idyllic because the family togetherness/closeness thing is not as important.  The values are different.  To my mind, they can be more empty, but not everyone would see it that way. 

 

Off topic, but Paul Fussell would say that my valuing family closeness is very middle class, and while I think the classes have different distinctions in different areas of the country, he may be correct.

 

WHAT????? You think that those of us that aren't middle-class DON'T VALUE family closeness????????????????? YOU ARE WRONG. I rarely say that, but that is so ugly, I can't believe you would say that. We've moved from "middle class" to "lower upper income" over the years and most certainly value family closeness. As do MOST people I know at our income level. What a horrible stereotypical thing for you to say, which shocks me, coming from you. 

[ktgrok]

Also, there seems to be a lot of extrapolation that supposes I am saying every child with wealthy parents grows up to be an entitled jerk. I did not say that. Heck, my MIL was “secretly†wealthy all those years, but she also made the kids milk the cows and build their own bikes so they wouldn’t get some crazy notion that things should easily come their way.

 

I’m talking about the way this family is. And I am commenting that they aren’t the only family I see with this sort of lavish focus on the kids. Among a certain segment of people, I see a lot of this. The parents seem to be flaunting the ability to be lavish with their kids. It’s one of the things that I have preferred about my homeschooling community all of these years; that attitude is rarer in homeschooling communities. In the wider affluent community, the flaunting started with who had their kids in Gymboree classes from birth and who had their babies dressed head-to-toe in fancy baby outfits and it continued on up to which travel sports clubs you could be in and what kinds of birthday parties you could do and so on. If others don’t encounter that - well, I guess you don’t. But I saw a lot of it before I found my homeschool niche and I jave seen a lot of it again since my older kids have been in private school.

 

And we are saying that there is he n me, with a brand new convertible for her 16th birthday, all the electronics she wanted, fancy summer camps that cost more than college, a maid to do all the housework....her parents "spoiled" her in the manner of tangible things and experiences, but they also reminded her that they were very lucky to have those things. 

 

She now lives fairly modestly herself, working as a manager of a wine shop, living in a house her parents restored yes, so modest rent, but otherwise she is in a mid-low budget lifestyle. And perfectly content with it, the most fun, joyous, nice person. Totally non materialistic. Kind to a fault. 

 

Stuff doesn't spoil kids, or adults. The idea that money is evil is a puritanical notion that needs to go by the wayside. The LOVE of money is evil, but having nice things and experiences isn't. 

 

That said, if one can't provide those things, I totally understand wanting to find a niche where others are of similar lifestyle, so that you and the kids aren't constantly out of the loop. TOTALLY get that. I once attended a church where everyone had a ton of money and so chat at coffee hour was about which ski vacation to go on and what top dollar item to buy at the charity auction for the pricey private school. That didn't make them morally less enlightened than me, but it did mean we had little in common to chat about. 

[Zinnia]

 

He has heard stories of sharing a bedroom with two other siblings. But it would still probably surprise him to go to a friend’s house where that is the sleeping situation. Hopefully, he wouldn’t say anything that makes him sound like a snobby kid who has always lived in a spacios house, but if he did, it would be because he thinks that is “normal,†if only because the large majority of friends and family whose houses he has been in are like this.

My brother got married a few years ago, to a woman with 2 kids. They decided to have a new baby, so they finished out the bonus room to make theirs a 4 bedroom house. My SIL told me that they basically had no choice. "I mean, where was the baby going to sleep?" At the time, we had 4 kids in a 3 bedroom house. My kids have always shared. But she was just so oblivious to that as a possibility.

[ktgrok]

I will say, I wouldn't let my kid go simply because I'm a control freak who couldn't handle a water vacation like that without being there to make sure he didn't drown, lol. So I'm with you there. 

 

Trip skiing, or something like that? I'd let him go in a heartbeat. 

 

But I really don't think this is about money, I think it is about people that like to DO DO DO vs sit home and just be content. And it is hard, when you are a sit at home content person to understand that those other people are just as "right" to do things their way. And yet, I also get wanting to be sure your kids know how to amuse themselves or enjoy themselves with little to do. I think you can have both though. 

[ktgrok]

I also think it is important for everyone to raise their kids with an awareness of NOT bragging, and to be sensitive to others. 

 

So I make sure my kids know that lots of other kids don't have a tablet, for instance. And ours is a cheap kids Kindle fire. But still. So they are not to brag about having it, or assume others do. Same with lots of other things. I am very intentional about that, because kids can sound like jerks if not taught how to not sound entitled. 

[Xahm]

My brother took several trips in high school with one of his friends. That boy was a year younger, a caboose baby in a very wealthy family, and did grow up pretty entitled. The boys family liked that my brother was a good influence, and would keep their son out of trouble. My family was going through a period of very tightened budgets at the time.

My brother enjoyed those trips and the things he did with that family around town, and it certainly widened his base of experience and understanding. He was always the kid most likely to dream of being rich, to blame troubles he had on the lack of money in our family. Being with this family cured him of that in many ways. He got to see that they had family problems, too, that their son struggled with basically the same things he did. He learned how to be open about money issues, telling his friend, "nope, I can't afford that restaurant." He came to appreciate that his life had taught him a resilience that this boy lacked. (And he is now "adulting" far more successfully than his friend) His relationship with the family also helped steer him away from the other extreme of blaming and mocking the wealthy.

All that was just to give one example of a time when it worked out well, without spoiling the child for simple pleasures. My brother was older, though, more like fifteen.

In all things, do what you think best. You have several good paths laid out before you. You are choosing between two good things, in my opinion, so there's really no risk of messing up and ruining your kid.

[creekland]

I know that the conversation here is focusing on material goods, but I sometimes feel this way about the vast amount of time and attention that DH and I lavish on our children.  We homeschool, which as far as I am concerned is the most expensive private school possible -- if you add up all o my lost income, compounded over time -- and then DH has basically structured his work life to maximize every moment possible with the kids. And just like the children who grow up in mansions, my kids take it all for granted and think that this is totally normal. 

 

Same here.  My entitled kids grew up just knowing mom and dad would be there for all special moments and pretty much all of the time in between.  This was normal for the Creekland Family.  As they went off to college, they found out just how atypical our lifestyle was...

 

And even with it being normal, they still went off on international trips with others starting at age 13.  ;)  They also fondly remember the oodles of family trips we've made too - sharing their memories with friends. Middle son had a peer who was teaching younger students statistics, so asked everyone she knew how many US states they had been to for some data.  She later told him she used his number, 49 (we missed Alaska), to teach them the word, "outlier."   :lol:

 

Perhaps the reason you didn't learn about Fussell in your sociology classes is because he was actually an English professor, who also wrote snarky essays about class based on his personal opinions rather than any real research. Call me crazy, but I'm not willing to accept the curmudgeonly ramblings of a guy born nearly a century ago, who got a PhD in 18th century English poetry in 1952, as proof that rich people hate their kids.  :001_rolleyes:

 

I don't accept it either.  I see plenty of middle and lower economic class students who seem to have less than stellar parenting or love from parents.  I think it's a personality type that transcends income.

 

I like to assume the best motives unless there is strong evidence otherwise.  I find that it is good for my mood, whether or not it reflects reality.

 

Ditto.  And more often than not, when I can find out things deeper than the surface, I find out I'm right.

 

WHAT????? You think that those of us that aren't middle-class DON'T VALUE family closeness????????????????? YOU ARE WRONG. I rarely say that, but that is so ugly, I can't believe you would say that. We've moved from "middle class" to "lower upper income" over the years and most certainly value family closeness. As do MOST people I know at our income level. What a horrible stereotypical thing for you to say, which shocks me, coming from you. 

 

Ditto.  I chalk it up to very little experience.  That's usually the way stereotypes get reinforced, whether it's about homeschoolers or basic class warfare like this.  I'm glad I had my experience in the ultra wealthy private school to see the truth - and now I also get to see multitudes in public school too.  That crosses many income levels.

[mom@shiloh]

I can understand Quill's reasoning and I wouldn't send my 12 yo either.  

 

Also, I think I understood her OP.  She's not saying that she thinks she necessarily has the right attitude about this.  She's being honest that this is the attitude that she has and she's trying to process that in a presumably safe place, where others might either agree with her or tell her GENTLY why they disagree.  Which, may or may not make her change her mind about it. 

 

This is off topic, but I'm frequently disappointed in the responses here which seem to assume the worst about others and are not gentle, kind and helpful in pointing out other possibilities.  .

[creekland]

My brother got married a few years ago, to a woman with 2 kids. They decided to have a new baby, so they finished out the bonus room to make theirs a 4 bedroom house. My SIL told me that they basically had no choice. "I mean, where was the baby going to sleep?" At the time, we had 4 kids in a 3 bedroom house. My kids have always shared. But she was just so oblivious to that as a possibility.

 

There are plenty of folks in the US who feel they can't live without at least two bathrooms in a house.   :lol:

 

We've done it with our family of five. I was raised with one bathroom.  So was my dad.  My mom's family had six kids and no shower and they all still survived too.

 

Yet now folks feel they just can't LIVE without at least two bathrooms.  I'm pretty sure more than one bathroom is nice, but I seriously doubt it will seriously do damage to anyone if they don't have it.

[Guest]

And we are saying that there is he n me, with a brand new convertible for her 16th birthday, all the electronics she wanted, fancy summer camps that cost more than college, a maid to do all the housework....her parents "spoiled" her in the manner of tangible things and experiences, but they also reminded her that they were very lucky to have those things.

 

She now lives fairly modestly herself, working as a manager of a wine shop, living in a house her parents restored yes, so modest rent, but otherwise she is in a mid-low budget lifestyle. And perfectly content with it, the most fun, joyous, nice person. Totally non materialistic. Kind to a fault.

 

Stuff doesn't spoil kids, or adults. The idea that money is evil is a puritanical notion that needs to go by the wayside. The LOVE of money is evil, but having nice things and experiences isn't.

 

That said, if one can't provide those things, I totally understand wanting to find a niche where others are of similar lifestyle, so that you and the kids aren't constantly out of the loop. TOTALLY get that. I once attended a church where everyone had a ton of money and so chat at coffee hour was about which ski vacation to go on and what top dollar item to buy at the charity auction for the pricey private school. That didn't make them morally less enlightened than me, but it did mean we had little in common to chat about.

Did you hear me? It doesn’t seem so.

 

Most people would say we are well-off. Certainly in the homeschooling community. Certainly most of the world would say we are fabulously rich. I mean WE, my family. My family, compared to most of the world is fabulously rich, and compared to most homeschoolers we know, are quite well-off. We have lots of great things. My kids have many great opportunities and certainly, I am thrilled they have a lot of them.

 

This thread is not a rant against wealth. If this were a video chat, it would be proposterously laughable for me to sit here and say all families who have comforts and luxuries are raising spoiled, entitled kids, as I sit here, typing on my iPad, sitting in a beautiful sunroom overlooking a vast field, still in my PJs because I don’t have to be suited up for work right now. I was talking about THIS FAMILY. Also, a wider trend where it is common to throw money around as a display of how successful one is.

[marbel]

I can understand Quill's reasoning and I wouldn't send my 12 yo either.  

 

Also, I think I understood her OP.  She's not saying that she thinks she necessarily has the right attitude about this.  She's being honest that this is the attitude that she has and she's trying to process that in a presumably safe place, where others might either agree with her or tell her GENTLY why they disagree.  Which, may or may not make her change her mind about it. 

 

This is off topic, but I'm frequently disappointed in the responses here which seem to assume the worst about others and are not gentle, kind and helpful in pointing out other possibilities.  .

 

I agree, but particularly about the bolded.  Not only are people assuming the worst about Quill - someone they "know" here - but they assume the best about the other family, about whom they know nothing but what Quill has said. 

[Guest]

There are plenty of folks in the US who feel they can't live without at least two bathrooms in a house. :lol:

 

We've done it with our family of five. I was raised with one bathroom. So was my dad. My mom's family had six kids and no shower and they all still survived too.

 

Yet now folks feel they just can't LIVE without at least two bathrooms. I'm pretty sure more than one bathroom is nice, but I seriously doubt it will seriously do damage to anyone if they don't have it.

I think that when I watch House Hunters. Also, the belief that there must be a guest room for the endless stream of visitors they think they will have. My parents also had one bathroom (still do). My mother was proud of it because it was double the size of the other ranchers on the street (originally) in 1963 and it had TWO sinks. My mother has a favorite photo, in which three daughters and our dad were all in the bathroom, fixing our hair and face for church one morning. Three girls shared one mirror. Can you imagine? ðŸ˜

[ktgrok]

This thread is not a rant against wealth. If this were a video chat, it would be proposterously laughable for me to sit here and say all families who have comforts and luxuries are raising spoiled, entitled kids, as I sit here, typing on my iPad, sitting in a beautiful sunroom overlooking a vast field, still in my PJs because I don’t have to be suited up for work right now. I was talking about THIS FAMILY. Also, a wider trend where it is common to throw money around as a display of how successful one is.

 

Perhaps, but you seemed to say that "secretly" wealthy people who make their kids milk cows and don't actually buy nice stuff with their money are somehow morally better than those that buy fancy baby clothes or pay for gymboree classes for toddlers or throw elaborate parties. Those are the examples you gave, as if spending the money was somehow objectionable, in and of itself. 

[creekland]

This thread is not a rant against wealth. If this were a video chat, it would be proposterously laughable for me to sit here and say all families who have comforts and luxuries are raising spoiled, entitled kids, as I sit here, typing on my iPad, sitting in a beautiful sunroom overlooking a vast field, still in my PJs because I don’t have to be suited up for work right now. I was talking about THIS FAMILY. Also, a wider trend where it is common to throw money around as a display of how successful one is.

 

FWIW, reading through this thread I haven't gotten the impression that you hate wealthy folks - just that you are different from this family in your lifestyle (and somewhat judging of that TBH).

 

Others have filled in the crazy things about economic class stereotypes and I think many posts (like some of mine) are responding to those.

[marbel]

Now we're counting bathrooms?   :lol:  :lol:

 

I personally am thrilled to live in a 2-bathroom house and wish we had 3.  How much easier those mornings when everyone has to be out the door at the same time would be if there was no bathroom gridlock.  Shoot, give me 4, please, 1 per person.   What a dream that would be.

 

So funny how these conversations take on a life of their own. 

[creekland]

Now we're counting bathrooms?   :lol:  :lol:

 

I personally am thrilled to live in a 2-bathroom house and wish we had 3.  How much easier those mornings when everyone has to be out the door at the same time would be if there was no bathroom gridlock.  Shoot, give me 4, please, 1 per person.   What a dream that would be.

 

So funny how these conversations take on a life of their own. 

 

They should be off limits for what's considered normal, entitlement, or extravagance?

 

Ok then.  Only travel and things kids get to do can be on this thread.  We, adults, have no boundaries - except travel.   :glare:

 

Personally, I still say we're all different with what we consider normal (usually based upon what we have grown up with or chosen for ourselves) and many different variations of those choices are still ok.  The same with our kids.  We all need to learn/realize that what we opt for isn't the only "right" answer.

[bettyandbob]

If the thread isn't a rant against wealth (I didn't think it was) is it that people handle wealth differently and based on Quill's background this other family's approach feels like flaunting and that makes Quill uncomfortable.

 

It might not be that. Clearly, we don't know the other family. I think sometimes there are people who make us feel "off". It's a gut reaction and it's hard to put out specific details to validate the feeling to others. Sometimes it's best not to try to explain since it's hard to put personal history into context.

 

So, go with your gut, you know your family and your kid.

[DawnM]

There are plenty of folks in the US who feel they can't live without at least two bathrooms in a house.   :lol:

 

We've done it with our family of five. I was raised with one bathroom.  So was my dad.  My mom's family had six kids and no shower and they all still survived too.

 

Yet now folks feel they just can't LIVE without at least two bathrooms.  I'm pretty sure more than one bathroom is nice, but I seriously doubt it will seriously do damage to anyone if they don't have it.

 

Our previous house had a bath and a quarter.  There was a full bathroom upstairs and then a toilet in a tiny room downstairs at the back of the laundry area.  We had to wash our hands in either the laundry sink, or go to the connecting kitchen to wash our hands.

 

At the time our kids were little (9 and 7 when we moved) and it worked out fine.  I would find it harder now with 3 teen boys and 2 parents, but we could manage.

[skimomma]

 

I keep thinking about the issue with the parents always inviting a friend for kid 1 if kid 2 has a sleepover.  To me, that would just be a no brainer.  You are giving up your peace and quiet for a night.  Might as well kill two birds with one stone.  That way you only have to spend half as many days hosting others, meaning you have that many more quiet, peaceful nights with your family.

 

 

 

 

I know a handful of families with the same policy for the same reason.  I know if I had more than one kid, I would go there too.  I HATE hosting sleepovers and I would rather cover my bases in as few nights as possible.  I also know of families that encourage their second, third, etc... kid to invite a friend as well because it decreases the conflict between siblings during the sleepover (pesky little brother trying to bother the others type thing).  And I know still others that just enjoy a full and high-energy house and welcome as many friends as their kids want at any time.  I really don't see anything wrong with any of it.

[gstharr]

Quill, I enjoy your posts.  I guess that is why I am baffled by your position.  From what I sense about you in your postings, if the financial positions were reversed, I believe you would be just as generous and inviting. I do hope you come around and let your son enjoy his great friendship. I see  nothing that you brought up, in this whole discussion, that suggests that the  other family is ill spirited. 

[DawnM]

Did you hear me? It doesn’t seem so.

 

Most people would say we are well-off. Certainly in the homeschooling community. Certainly most of the world would say we are fabulously rich. I mean WE, my family. My family, compared to most of the world is fabulously rich, and compared to most homeschoolers we know, are quite well-off. We have lots of great things. My kids have many great opportunities and certainly, I am thrilled they have a lot of them.

 

This thread is not a rant against wealth. If this were a video chat, it would be proposterously laughable for me to sit here and say all families who have comforts and luxuries are raising spoiled, entitled kids, as I sit here, typing on my iPad, sitting in a beautiful sunroom overlooking a vast field, still in my PJs because I don’t have to be suited up for work right now. I was talking about THIS FAMILY. Also, a wider trend where it is common to throw money around as a display of how successful one is.

 

 

Honestly, I haven't seen this.  And I live in a nicer area.

 

But maybe I don't know what you mean by throwing money around.

[8circles]

Quill, I enjoy your posts.  I guess that is why I am baffled by your position.  From what I sense about you in your postings, if the financial positions were reversed, I believe you would be just as generous and inviting. I do hope you come around and let your son enjoy his great friendship. I see  nothing that you brought up, in this whole discussion, that suggests that the  other family is ill spirited. 

 

Seriously, this has become comical.

 

This isn't about finances. It isn't about generosity. It isn't about depriving her son of this friendship. She knows the family & sees something negative that bothers her. Many people either don't understand or have somehow taken it personally or apparently don't believe that people exist who might have less-than-positive motivations. 

 

Nobody else needs to understand the exact details of why Quill isn't cool about all these invitations. I think she's been around long enough for people to take her word for it.

 

My favorite: I can't imagine vacationing without my kids. You can't imagine your kids vacationing without you. Interesting.

 

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:

[Guest]

Perhaps, but you seemed to say that "secretly" wealthy people who make their kids milk cows and don't actually buy nice stuff with their money are somehow morally better than those that buy fancy baby clothes or pay for gymboree classes for toddlers or throw elaborate parties. Those are the examples you gave, as if spending the money was somehow objectionable, in and of itself.

Good grief, man.

 

I was talking about a general attitude in some circles. You’re saying you haven’t ever witnessed it? Lucky you. There was one mom friend I had for a year or two when my first child was born. She had the attitude I am talking about. She bought gold jewelry for her dd to wear. She wanted her kid to be the WOW kid. She talked about Gymboree classes and wanted me to join. I could not afford to at the time and didn’t. But I do remember one time she gushed about another little girl there and how she was dressed in Blah, Blah, Blah and had jewelry everywhere jewelry can be hung and then said, “I hate when people out-baby me!†Umm...okay. I have a feeling we aren’t going to be friends for long.

 

Is it judgemental that I think someone is kind of a shitty mom if her main goal in going to a baby play class is having the topmost bougie baby in the class? Probably. But yeah, I judge that as crappy. We did not remain friends because her main discussion point at all times was fashion and money and nice houses and clothes. She urged me to finish certain things on my house. She badgered me about buying new clothes. She wanted me to go along wih things like entering the girls in a Beautiful Baby contest.

 

If you haven’t met any moms like this, I consider you lucky.

[Guest]

Honestly, I haven't seen this. And I live in a nicer area.

 

But maybe I don't know what you mean by throwing money around.

See post #254.

[BarbecueMom]

I'm not touching the class/envy/entitlement thing...

 

But I did want to comment on the idea of "making memories". Your son's personality is going to have a far greater impact on how he sees the events of his childhood than whether or not he goes on a vacation with a friend's family.

 

He may see snow days with the family as a happy memory of board games and cocoa. Or he may remember it as "that time I was stuck in the house bored and pretending not to be". He may be glad he had fun with a friend. Or he may not even remember it, one way or the other.

 

He may fondly remember the annual family weeks at the beach. Or he may be so sick of it he never wants to see a beach again. Or, again, he may barely remember it at all.

 

Or something in between.

 

Personally, my mom tried really hard to come up with family traditions that I would look back on fondly and recreate with my own kids. And honestly, I resent most of them because she put a lot of emotional weight on them, and I don't like being told what to do or feel. Things like getting us a new ornament every year for the tree. She's kept up that tradition, and every year I cringe and wish I could have a tree with only impersonal shiny balls and not the baggage of memories on hooks.

 

Alas, I have kids who love their ornaments, so I keep my Scrooge grumbling to myself.

[EmseB]

Seriously, this has become comical.

 

This isn't about finances. It isn't about generosity. It isn't about depriving her son of this friendship. She knows the family & sees something negative that bothers her. Many people either don't understand or have somehow taken it personally or apparently don't believe that people exist who might have less-than-positive motivations. 

 

Nobody else needs to understand the exact details of why Quill isn't cool about all these invitations. I think she's been around long enough for people to take her word for it.

 

My favorite: I can't imagine vacationing without my kids. You can't imagine your kids vacationing without you. Interesting.

 

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:

 

I liked the posts where she was supposed to tell her son about the invitation (which, kudos to the family that it was done discretely between the adults!) so that she could tell him all the reasons they weren't letting him go on the trip.

 

I totally get the family personality that Quill is talking about. I think I'm related to some of them. It is really hard to throw out examples because then people say, "Well, I did X for my kids and they're not entitled/spoiled/etc."  Okay. So what I would say is not to take Quill's examples personally and realize that there are people out there putting their kids in expensive sports, taking expensive trips, living lavishly in a sterotypically American entitled way that is antithetical to a lot of expectations about life that we (general) want our kids to have. I think of it as like a toned-down version of some of the Real Housewives families (not that I've ever wasted time watching any of those shows!).  It's not that level of wealth or tackiness, but it's along those lines.

Edited November 29, 2017 by EmseB

[AprilTN]

Quill, of course you do what you feel is best, and it's just a vacation, so don't stress over it too much.  

 

We go to the beach a few times a year, so this year we let our girls take friends and it was really fun.  Different, but fun.  I would be hurt if I thought that one of the friends' moms thought we had any ill intent.  It was simple:  we had a house rented, we had tons of room, we've been there many times, and thought our teens would love to change things up by taking friends.  We know that our time with them being this age is short, and we wanted to make the specific memory of a friend vacation.

 

My daughter studied abroad this summer, and went to a country I've never been to.  I knew we probably wouldn't be able to go there together, so I gladly let her have this experience.  It gave me sheer joy to give her this opportunity, even though I wouldn't be able to experience it with her.  I didn't want to deprive her of this just because I wanted her to have the experience with our family.  

 

I know these things can be emotional, but if you decide to let him go, it can still be exciting for you.  How fun would it be for him to come back and tell you all about what he did, and share the experience with you in that way?  

 

Another thought...we only have two children, and we definitely lean on the side of "spoiling" them, but they also really truly love to do the simple things in life, and enjoy simple pleasures as well as the things with a wow factor.  We do both. 

 

For example, my girls love getting dressed up, visiting a museum, and going to a fancy dinner.  They also love cooking smores and hot dogs on a fire in the back yard and playing cards.   They would love a water park visit, but they also love looking for fossils in my parents' creek and taking a nature walk.  

 

It has not been my experience that once they do something really extravagant that they can't enjoy simpler things.  I love both too!  

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[lauraw4321]

:::snip:::

 

This thread is not a rant against wealth. If this were a video chat, it would be proposterously laughable for me to sit here and say all families who have comforts and luxuries are raising spoiled, entitled kids, as I sit here, typing on my iPad, sitting in a beautiful sunroom overlooking a vast field, still in my PJs because I don’t have to be suited up for work right now. I was talking about THIS FAMILY. Also, a wider trend where it is common to throw money around as a display of how successful one is.

 

The fundamental problem I have is not that you won't let your son go, because I understand the fear about water, which is completely valid.

 

The fundamental problem I have is that you view their invitation as throwing money around to display how successful they are. You are assigning a motive that I don't believe they have. They want to invite your son. They can afford it. Their motive is simply to extend an invitation. That's it. To assign a motive of displaying their wealth is unfair. None of what you have described of this family makes me think their motive is to display their wealth.

 

The case of the woman and the fancy baby - yes. I can see that. But what you've described of this family? No.

[creekland]

Good grief, man.

 

I was talking about a general attitude in some circles. You’re saying you haven’t ever witnessed it? Lucky you. There was one mom friend I had for a year or two when my first child was born. She had the attitude I am talking about. She bought gold jewelry for her dd to wear. She wanted her kid to be the WOW kid. She talked about Gymboree classes and wanted me to join. I could not afford to at the time and didn’t. But I do remember one time she gushed about another little girl there and how she was dressed in Blah, Blah, Blah and had jewelry everywhere jewelry can be hung and then said, “I hate when people out-baby me!†Umm...okay. I have a feeling we aren’t going to be friends for long.

 

Is it judgemental that I think someone is kind of a shitty mom if her main goal in going to a baby play class is having the topmost bougie baby in the class? Probably. But yeah, I judge that as crappy. We did not remain friends because her main discussion point at all times was fashion and money and nice houses and clothes. She urged me to finish certain things on my house. She badgered me about buying new clothes. She wanted me to go along wih things like entering the girls in a Beautiful Baby contest.

 

If you haven’t met any moms like this, I consider you lucky.

 

TBH, this is not a case of crappy parenting.  This is a case of different ideals and priorities just like there are oodles of threads on the Hive talking about pros and cons of various fashion things people find in person or online.

 

You were right in not remaining friends.  As a pp some time ago mentioned, there just isn't enough you have in common to have anything to talk about.  It's more fun to find one's own crowd and participate in things one likes.  Those things can range from fashion to books to travel to houses to - well, whatever.  I stay off essentially all fashion threads on the Hive.  That doesn't mean I'm judging those on it.  I just don't share the enthusiasm of critiquing what people wear and I don't make my own decisions based upon what other people think.

 

If you want to see crappy parenting, come to my school sometime.  I'll let you talk with our fantastic dude who tries to help these kids get through it.  Or you can talk with my youngest son and he can share stories from kids who were at the summer camp (for disadvantaged kids) he worked at.

[SKL]

As far as "throwing money around" making other people unhappy....

 

Most people would agree that if they have money and time, they will use some of the money to do fun things.

 

Yes I know Quill is not complaining about that.  BUT.  A family who decides to go on a fabulous vacation really only has two choices.  1. Conspicuously "throw money around" and not share, or 2. Conspicuously "throw money around" and share.

 

It's pretty hard to go on an international vacation without your friends knowing about it.

 

So unless international vacations are just wrong (and I'm going straight to hell), there seems no way to do this right.

 

I don't bring other people's kids on vacations, because our vacations are very hectic and often logistically complicated.  Also, my two kids are great company for each other.  But I can relate to the idea that you bring a friend along for several reasons.  One possibly being that you are teaching your kid that they don't deserve more fun and goodies than their friends just because they happened to land in your family.  At school or in the neighborhood, it would be nice to have someone close in age to talk to about it without sounding like a braggart.  But I suppose these sound very self-serving.  And people with money are going to be judged for how they spend it, no matter what.

[creekland]

I totally get the family personality that Quill is talking about. I think I'm related to some of them. It is really hard to throw out examples because then people say, "Well, I did X for my kids and they're not entitled/spoiled/etc."  Okay. So what I would say is not to take Quill's example's personally and realize that there are people out there putting their kids in expensive sports, taking expensive trips, living lavishly in a sterotypically American entitled way that is antithetical to a lot of expectations about life that we (general) want our kids to have. I think of it as like a toned-down version of some of the Real Housewives families (not that I've ever wasted time watching any of those shows!).  It's not that level of wealth or tackiness, but it's along those lines.

 

We all get to make our decisions about what we value and what we want to do.  There's nothing wrong with that.

 

But your judgment of the other side is Hillbilly Elegy stereotyping at its best TBH.

 

There was the same thing going on recently about whether one should opt for a less selective college or not - with folks gasping that people would actually PAY for a more selective one.  "Don't they have their values set right?  Think of what they could do with that money instead!!!"

[creekland]

And people with money are going to be judged for how they spend it, no matter what.

 

I think you hit the nail on the head here.

 

If one can afford to do things, they'd better hide it and certainly not invite others to share.

 

Oh well.  I share trip photos at school, not to make kids jealous, but to inspire.  I've had kids come back after visiting some of these places thanking me for letting them know about it and giving them inspiration.  Heck, I've had adults do the same.

 

I'm sure plenty judge me regarding my lack of fashion.  I seriously don't care in the least no matter how much it bugs them.  Not buying the latest fashion and wearing the same clothes until they literally wear out gives us more money to travel (or spend on more expensive colleges).

[mommyoffive]

There are some things I prefer for my kids to do first with me.  That said, I think it is nice they are inviting your kid.  I feel a bit attacked by your tone.

 

I have invited a friend of my kids to do some expensive things.  I know the parents can't easily reciprocate with a costly experience, but they do other things that I really appreciate, like picking up my kid from bowling every week last Spring when I could not have taken that much time off work.  I do realize there is some discomfort for the parents, so I don't go all crazy all the time, but at some level, this is what I can do that makes all 3 kids happy.  And I much prefer it over having sleepovers and such, because hosting is not my talent.

 

So here's the deal.  Some people have more money than other people.  It doesn't make them assholes.  You already know they have more money, so their offering to do something for your kid isn't about them showing off.  They also know you have less money, and they are inviting anyway, so obviously they do not care if you don't reciprocate.  Maybe it would make you feel better if you considered that your allowing them to treat your son is helpful to them - it may be the easiest way for them to provide good social opportunities for their kids.  I'm sure many will read that with judgment, but maybe try looking at it a bit more charitably.

 

And yes, I am probably raising spoiled, entitled brats.  I am not going to deny experiences to myself just because some people think it's gonna taint my kids.  It will all come out in the wash - either my kids will be hard-working, decent humans, or they won't.  I'm pretty sure that's also true for kids who never leave their home town, but whatever.

 

That all said - say no if you don't want your son to do that activity without you.  I'm that way about some things.  Like watching really good classic movies.  Or any major milestone.  I get that.  But don't hate on the family who is offering.

 

I believe this too.  I am into traveling as much as I can while I can.  I am not going to not go to the places I have always wanted to see just so my kids might not be spoiled. 

[creekland]

There is one neighborhood here where kids line up to get in for Halloween. It's a really really affluent gated neighborhood where every neighbor is notorious for one-upping the other. This year a teen I know went there with a friend who lives there. There was one guy who hired a Ben & Jerry's truck to serve trick-or-treaters.   :001_huh: The kids would have to eat the ice cream right there. Of course the result was that his house had a ton of kids hanging out in front ensuring his house was the place everyone checked out. It was the best experience ever for the kids, but so far over the top it was ridiculous. There does come a point where extravagance become obscene. 

 

I have heard similar stories about families that attend an elite private school. Birthday parties are beyond indulgent. I have no idea if they are raising Dudley Dursley, but it would surprise me if these kids have not been raised with overly high standards that are unrealistic outside of their world. 

 

And why, again, is this a problem?  It seems to me it's just because it's not how you would spend your money.  If they have it and want to do it (the whole competition thing), WTH is wrong with it?  The Ben and Jerry's truck sounds awesome IMO!

 

There are plenty of things my parents did when I grew up that I don't do now.  I don't think they were wrong with their choices.  I just prefer other options instead.  Kids who go to these things or who have parents who do them are not ruined.  I see more problems with the kids of those who are so judgmental about others who differ from their family.

[unsinkable]

I'm not touching the class/envy/entitlement thing...

 

But I did want to comment on the idea of "making memories". Your son's personality is going to have a far greater impact on how he sees the events of his childhood than whether or not he goes on a vacation with a friend's family.

 

He may see snow days with the family as a happy memory of board games and cocoa. Or he may remember it as "that time I was stuck in the house bored and pretending not to be". He may be glad he had fun with a friend. Or he may not even remember it, one way or the other.

 

He may fondly remember the annual family weeks at the beach. Or he may be so sick of it he never wants to see a beach again. Or, again, he may barely remember it at all.

 

Or something in between.

 

Personally, my mom tried really hard to come up with family traditions that I would look back on fondly and recreate with my own kids. And honestly, I resent most of them because she put a lot of emotional weight on them, and I don't like being told what to do or feel. Things like getting us a new ornament every year for the tree. She's kept up that tradition, and every year I cringe and wish I could have a tree with only impersonal shiny balls and not the baggage of memories on hooks.

 

Alas, I have kids who love their ornaments, so I keep my Scrooge grumbling to myself.

About your first couple paragraphs...

 

I agree that kids are going to have their own take on what their childhood was.

 

There is a lot of "Do XYZ" and get "ABC outcome" talk going on in this thread.

 

These are kids, not machines.

[bettyandbob]

Now I want a Ben and Jerry's truck to hand out ice cream on my street. 

[BarbecueMom]

These are kids, not machines.

No kidding. I've spent 9 years looking for the slot to remove the batteries.

[unsinkable]

No kidding. I've spent 9 years looking for the slot to remove the batteries.

Haha...when my kids were babies we'd kid around about pressing a button to put them in stasis...just for an hour or so, so we could nap.

[scholastica]

And why, again, is this a problem? It seems to me it's just because it's not how you would spend your money. If they have it and want to do it (the whole competition thing), WTH is wrong with it? The Ben and Jerry's truck sounds awesome IMO!

 

There are plenty of things my parents did when I grew up that I don't do now. I don't think they were wrong with their choices. I just prefer other options instead. Kids who go to these things or who have parents who do them are not ruined. I see more problems with the kids of those who are so judgmental about others who differ from their family.

Are you really saying that there isn’t a problematic consumerism underlying some of this behavior? That some of these people aren’t deriving their self-worth from how much money and stuff they can get? And that deriving your self-worth from how much you happen to be lucky enough to make and spend isn’t problematic?