What is the "purpose" of VBS? Obviously CC here...

[Carrie12345]

I'm sorry. If I'm not confusing you with a pp, you aren't a Christian? I'm truly sorry they are pushing you and causing you to wonder if you are being cynical. It shouldn't be that way.

I'm not. And I'm not in the closet about it, but I don't go around singing about it, either. So it often puts me in a spot of wondering whether I'm supposed to tell/remind the person, or just let them assume I'm either a stick in the mud or a crummy flavor of Christian, lol. Or, you know, wonder if they're trying to flip me and/or my kids. Which then makes me question our entire relationship in other contexts. Lose/lose

[G5052]

I've seen it used as a community outreach -- everything up front, parents welcome to stay, etc. etc. At the end the parents are invited to an evening program with a salvation message.

 

For some reason, our church keeps doing it despite almost no attendance. Some years no one comes, and other years they have 1-2 families of kids. I don't get it.

[itsheresomewhere]

I don't allow my kids to do a regular VBS. The VBS my DD attends is not a normal one.  They have an ATV course, box car races, zip lining, huge food fight with all, water fights and a slip and slide down the side of large hill.  It is a very physically involved.  The ones who run it want the kids to have fun with their families/friends and grow together. The leaders think if the kids remember it and the families are involved, then they will want to grow spiritually without anyone telling them that they will go to hell if they don't join during VBS ( yes, that has happened).For this church, it really is about growing as a community. They do a very limited message about Jesus.

 

 

[gstharr]

This question is for Christians who are actively participating (however you want to define that).

 

I help with and the kids attend two VBS programs every summer. They are very different. In one (that we didn't go to this year) a friend said the "goal" was obviously salvation. That's not my goal in VBS. In the town I help with, the goal is.... to make church seem fun? Child care for the parents? Something to break up summer boredom? Get kids off the street? I'm not really sure, but it certainly wasn't salvation! To be fair, I was only in the classes with the littlest ones, so perhaps the older kids covered salvation?

 

What is the purpose of your church VBS program? There is no wrong answer, I'm just curious. And the answers are likely dependent on your community.

 

 

My family was poor when i was in the middle years.  There was a lady down the street who must have been important in her church. She approached all the kids in our neighborhood and invited us to a two week VBS at her church. It was not a religion my family practiced.  She provided yellow school bus transportation for about 25 kids from the few blocks around my home. The church was 45 minutes away.  We all went because it was fun: the daily trip, nice lunch and snacks everyday, and lots of activities.  We had to participate in bible studies, but nothing too serious. It sure broke up the boredom.  We were poor.  We weren't going anywhere or doing anything else for the summer.  

 

Then, at the end of VBS, all kids who participated regularly, and behaved, were invited to a week of summer camp,near Big Bear,  for free.  

the camp offered everything the "Y" offered, but there was a one-hour daily chapel/bible study.  I attended for four years.  Almost all the kids on my block went until they aged out.  The lady and her husband, lived in the same house until their passing.  They were respected and watched out for by all the kids in our neighborhood.  This was a rough neighborhood, they were never troubled. Maybe, that was part of our lesson.

 

A few years ago, when it was time for the new 7th grader to go summer camping,  I checked on my old camp. I was surprised that it was still there. Many additions added. It is really nice camp still run my the same religion.  This will be the 4th year my son goes.  I have to drop him off. AND, now I pay.  So, my son does not do VBS.

[FaithManor]

Here it is often the "fun" thing churchespecially for for young kids if they do not otherwise do much throughout the year. At my mother's church there is an active seniors group who do a lot of social events, there is a mother of preschooler group, a college career group, a men'should breakfast group and golf club, a women's Bible Study and tea group, a very active youth group who had a Christmas Party every year, caroling, ice sledding, then swimming and kayaking in good weather. But the young kids simply have Sunday morning class and nothing else. So it seems that VBS is the annual hurrah for the young kids. They do take up offerings pitting boys against girls, and half the money goes to a food pantry while the other half goes to a medical couple in Doctors Without Borders.

Edited June 19, 2017 by FaithManor

[shawthorne44]

Our church didn't do VBS, but as a kid I once attended one of the Purple Protestant denomination's VBS at the urging of our neighbor friend.   I didn't need saving since Jesus was already in my heart, and I was already active in our church.   It was a ton of fun.  Without that VBS experience my opinion of the Purple group would be on the negative side of neutral.  Because of it, my opinion is on the positive side of neutral.  The people running it were such darn nice people.  

 

At our last house, the city we lived in tended toward the MegaChurchs.   They all had VBS programs.   But, every VBS was in the same week, which I thought was smart.  Something seems wrong to me about signing your kid up for 8 VBS programs as free childcare.   One the same level of wrongness as eating all of the food samples that are put out.   

 

[Heatherwith4]

At our current church, it's about having fun and learning about Jesus along the way. As a whole, we don't push salvation. However, last year I found out that one of the Kindergarten teachers led the whole class in a "sinner's prayer." Later she bragged on Facebook that several of the kids raised their hand that they had "accepted Christ." Well of course they did. They were trying to please their teacher and fit in. I don't think that my church in general would approve of her doing that.

[Zinnia]

The ones I attended as a kid and the ones my kids attend vary, but mostly, it's week long Sunday School.

 

Our own church does an over the top, $160 for the week, extravaganza. Field trips every day, Jesus swag, loud music, a sermon every day. It's over the top, but so is the (mega) church so you know it going in.

 

Another church my kids attend is really small and sweet and is mostly an outreach to a refugee area. So I love that they are getting a diverse picture of the body. They are going to a third later in the summer and it's classic southern baptist. It's also held at night so a few date nights. ;)

Edited June 19, 2017 by Zinnia

[Guest]

Technically, sure. But I find SOME of the tactics used in our area to be questionable. Like telling my kids about bounce houses and snacks and pony rides before approaching me. Then trying to convince me that "everyone" is welcome, regardless of what they believe.

 

I have never sent my kids, but I have to admit that some people sell it well enough that I've occasionally wondered if I was being overly cynical. I mean, when you're told over and over again that it's perfectly innocent fun, it does start to feel like you're being silly about the whole thing. Especially coming from people you trust in most other situations. I have to intentionally remind myself that we're coming from very different perspectives on "innocent fun".

Yup.

 

One time, my dear good friend was the head of the VBS at my church and we were homeschool buddies. Imagine me coming up with a boxfull of excuses as to why I wasn't signing the kids up. I settled on a partial truth - it was being held in the evening and I wasn't keen to have my small kids out night after night. She never did nag me about it, but I think she suspected I wasn't giving her the whole reason. That was the one time I almost capitulated, but there is something that really irks me about, "Wanna come and do a MOON BOUNCE?! And play glow-in-the-dark LIGHTSTICK TAG?! And learn some cool dance moves to some great, rockin JESUS MUSIC?!!!" There's something so try-hard about that and it's not spiritual at all.

 

I am not opposed to my kids embracing a faith system - I hope they do - but I don't want them confused about why they bought in.

[athomeontheprairie]

Ok, I admit it. I'm curious. What was the program? Did it differ from your church's normal presentation of religion in some way?

 

 

Me too!

 

Most prepackaged VBS programs are doctrinally neutral. Except one (that I know of).

We are OE Christians and the program was done by Answers in Genesis. The goal of our church (as I saw it) was to promote a YE view. There has been a very hard push in our church that says "if you aren't a YE christian you aren't really a christian". This view of teaching a 6,000 old earth WAS the point of this VBS. I don't know if Jesus was even discussed? The friends I had that helped had a really HARD time with the teaching portion. 

[Heatherwith4]

Most prepackaged VBS programs are doctrinally neutral. Except one (that I know of).

We are OE Christians and the program was done by Answers in Genesis. The goal of our church (as I saw it) was to promote a YE view. There has been a very hard push in our church that says "if you aren't a YE christian you aren't really a christian". This view of teaching a 6,000 old earth WAS the point of this VBS. I don't know if Jesus was even discussed? The friends I had that helped had a really HARD time with the teaching portion.

Oh yeah. There's no way my kids would've gone to that vbs either.

[FaithManor]

Yup.

 

One time, my dear good friend was the head of the VBS at my church and we were homeschool buddies. Imagine me coming up with a boxfull of excuses as to why I wasn't signing the kids up. I settled on a partial truth - it was being held in the evening and I wasn't keen to have my small kids out night after night. She never did nag me about it, but I think she suspected I wasn't giving her the whole reason. That was the one time I almost capitulated, but there is something that really irks me about, "Wanna come and do a MOON BOUNCE?! And play glow-in-the-dark LIGHTSTICK TAG?! And learn some cool dance moves to some great, rockin JESUS MUSIC?!!!" There's something so try-hard about that and it's not spiritual at all.

 

I am not opposed to my kids embracing a faith system - I hope they do - but I don't want them confused about why they bought in.

I agree.

 

I think that churches feel they need to be "blingy" to compete for kids' attention. However, I don't really know if having kids desire going to church for "blingy" is a good thing. Better to let them grow up and then reason with them sensibly, responsibly, and logically about the faith. At least that has been more our way of doing things.

 

But I also have to say there isn't anything inherently bad about fun for the sake of fun. It's when it turns into bribery on a faith matter that it seems to be disquieting.

[HS Mom in NC]

I think churches should be more cautious than most are.  It's true that what you attract them WITH is what you attract them TO.  Great care should be taken to include plenty of substance with entertainments. When churches don't (and this isn't just about VBS) they aren't really doing what God called them to. 

I grew up Southern Baptist, so VBS was all about getting kids to say the "sinner's prayer" and walking the aisle at the end of the week. I'm theologically opposed to that kind of thing as I became a hardline, TULIP waving,  5 point Calvinist on election as an adult in my late 20s.  I won't allow my children in a church that do those things.

I don't have a problem with VBS in summer if it's truly Bible School.  If churches want to teach Bible stories, have fun activities and songs based on them, eat some snacks, and invite children in the community to join them, and then invite the parents to come back with their kids for regular church services so they can learn more about the faith, I'm all for it. Walk Through the Bible and Life of Jesus types of things can be well done in fun and substantive ways.  But the heavy handed evangelism with kids is something I'm theologically opposed to.  I think Jesus' command to weigh the cost before making any sort of profession of faith is largely ignored by a lot of churches and is something children cannot really do. Kids often believe what the adults tell them, not because of genuine conversion, but because kids are hard wired to believe what adults tell them.  I also think warnings against taking communion unworthily is ignored.  Because of this lack of caution and discernment The Church is corrupted by it-wheat and tares and all.

I don't want people mistaking the cult of Churchianity for the conversion of Christianity-white washed tombs and all.

[historically accurate]

I've sent my kids to VBS on and off over the years. Mostly it was some summer fun with different kids (we don't put on VBS in my church) with some Sunday School learning. It was mostly an outreach to the neighborhood, some free childcare, and some summertime "camp like" experiences. 

 

I've had 2 bad experiences though. 

 

One: a (very) poorly supervised bouncy house that caused a collision. That one incident has led to knee surgery and long-term medical issues. No one ever followed up from the church with me regarding why the accident happened other than the first day when I went to pick her up and she couldn't walk. I think DH called and reamed them out the next week, but honestly, I never wanted to see them again.

 

Two: imagine my surprise last year when I go to the week-end parent program and my children are singing weird "science-y" songs. :huh:  It was a relative's & close homeschooling friend's church, so I couldn't complain too much publicly. There was quite the spirited discussion (it may have been a rant actually) in the car on the way home though.  (link to the song that set me off in case you're curious: 

) 

 

Fortunately, we've moved out of VBS ages with the exception of youngest, and she won't be attending in the future. The ones that my oldest attended were pretty well supervised while I've noticed that the ones we've done in the past couple of years have been mostly teens and tweens leading them. 

Edited June 19, 2017 by beckyjo

[meganrussell]

I wanted to add a couple things...

 

First, our vbs is at night. It's after work for most parents. That's usually the way it is around here. Also, the parents were invited to stay, eat, and do a bible study with one of our members. I guess I'm just not getting the 'free childcare' thing, but i could see that if it's a vbs during the day.

Second, one thing we did this year was every vbs kid worked on a 'blessing box' that is going to be placed at a food bank type place in town, so that anyone who needs something non-perishable (food, toilet paper, etc) can go 24/7 and get it. This was my favorite activity. They sanded and painted and took part in the hands-on preparing of it. And it's a going to be a great help to the community.

LOVE this idea.

[athomeontheprairie]

 

Two: imagine my surprise last year when I go to the week-end parent program and my children are singing weird "science-y" songs. :huh: It was a relative's & close homeschooling friend's church, so I couldn't complain too much publicly. There was quite the spirited discussion (it may have been a rant actually) in the car on the way home though. (link to the song that set me off in case you're curious:

)

 

This is produced by the same publisher that our church used this year (that we didn't attend).

[historically accurate]

This is produced by the same publisher that our church used this year (that we didn't attend).

 

You're very smart. I'm just lucky DH was able to steer me out of there without me blowing my top as it could've caused some serious family issues. He saw the steam starting to come out of my ears.

[Farrar]

My mother was a children's minister for awhile when I was a kid so I got to be on that end of VBS a couple of years. I think it works best by far when it's kids from the community and the focus is the community and community building. When I've heard about VBS as a recruitment tool I've really cringed. Like, no way. 

[musicianmom]

*

Edited May 21, 2022 by musicianmom

[ktgrok]

Most prepackaged VBS programs are doctrinally neutral. Except one (that I know of).

We are OE Christians and the program was done by Answers in Genesis. The goal of our church (as I saw it) was to promote a YE view. There has been a very hard push in our church that says "if you aren't a YE christian you aren't really a christian". This view of teaching a 6,000 old earth WAS the point of this VBS. I don't know if Jesus was even discussed? The friends I had that helped had a really HARD time with the teaching portion. 

 

Ah! Yeah I wouldn't let my kids go to that either.

[momacacia]

This year, for the 8yo the purpose is additional Christian education, making friends, having a good time and maybe she'll participate in the Scripture memory challenges again. For the 12yo, her purpose is to go serve and help.with younger kids...something she's wanted to do for 2-3 years now.

 

The VBS we attend is not our home church, but they do a.really beautiful, intentional job educating and I've been pleasantly surprised with the quality of people who have worked with my kids.

[MistyMountain]

My kids participated in two. One was with a church we were involved with something not church related and the kids liked the adults and they told us about this week long outdoor camp for kids they do in the summer. We are not religious but I am ok with my kids knowing about Christianity and hearing bible stories. I knew people that did it and said good things about it. This was mostly a fun camp that was not pushy. They did hear bible stories and meet adults that were nice and a good representative of their church without being pushy. I do think they would like some kids to go to their church or think positively of Christianity but it really was more about having fun with some bible stories with messages about being good people thrown in. It was to give kids a low cost fun thing for kids to do where you do not have to worry about them getting into trouble and for the parents and community.

 

My friend told me about another one and I thought it would be similar but it ended up being way more pushy with asking you to prosetelisize and it was young earth based with lots of really bad science and their "evidence" in a very comical pushy way. I got a call afterwards that my kids accepted Jesus and I needed to bring them to their church which is funny because my kids are either very indifferent or outright atheist and they still were afterwards so they must have felt like they had to say it. I also was in a neighborhood for another activity where a church puts on a park fun day and the kids wanted to stop by and it was also very pushy with wanted to sign them up for their bus church program and they asked kids about accepting Jesus right there at this neighborhood park party that kids just are interested in the bounce houses and games. I do not want to do any program like those again but I do not mind ones like the first I described and would do similar to that again if it was something that interests them otherwise.

 

So yes some are strictly about salvation and some are more low key and more like what you describe with a positive place for kids and leaving them with a positive impression of the church and or just Christianity but not expecting anything either. My kids are all atheist and comfortable with it but they do not mind things that are fun that include a bible story.

Edited June 19, 2017 by MistyMountain

[HS Mom in NC]

As a Lutheran I have the same issue. So I don't send my kids to Baptist VBS. Or to nondenominational churches that basically do the same thing. My guideline is that if a church practices infant baptism, then it's probably pretty safe.

 

We don't have the same issue.  I'm opposed to infant baptism too for basically the same reasons.  I only go to churches that practice believer's baptism of people mature enough to fully grasp weighing the cost, who believe regeneration can only happen with genuine, conscious repentance and conscious faith, and who don't do aisle walking and sinner's prayer. In my mind there's no significant difference between baptizing an infant or an older child.

[Guest]

To the original question and not anything that has developed in the middle--I haven't Rea all the responses.  

 

I wanted my kid to know other kids at the church, to have a chance to really PLAY and be with them, and more than could be accomplished on a Sunday morning. So he went to VBS and to the church camps through elementary school.  After that age, there were youth groups and so on.  Basically, I guess, I saw VBS as a very short term camp or youth group for the younger set.  

 

I liked what our church did--it was all home grown and largely focused on being together and playing and hearing a story read and singing a song, but there was some ick in it for my kid because he is just not a "do the hand motions to the song" kinda guy.  Didn't want to wear the camp t-shirt.  Not belligerent, just a pretty think-y kid, straight from the womb.   (It's a strength, and a weakness...). A lot of the youth leaders were kind of put off by his ways, but there was one lady who really GOT him and kind of stood in the gap to keep the youth leaders from freaking out that my son didn't like to do hand motions.  (eye roll... but with a smile)

 

He had a good time, it was one week.  He had a better time in the 5th grade where they formed very small groups of kids--like 6 or 7--and assigned them a youth leader and they did an outing every other week.  My kid had a GREAT youth leader:  he took them on bike rides and canoe days, and hikes, and even got them a pass to go onto the university football field for a couple of hours, so they had a blast with that.  

[SKL]

I attended as a kid, so I'll answer.  I see it as a way to shine a fresh light on religious studies, and also to attract new students to Sunday School / church.

 

My kids have not attended VBS because it's always at an inconvenient time and location.  Our church VBS only goes through 4th, and I'm glad I don't have to think about it any more.  :P  If my kids could walk to VBS, like I did as a kid, I would have encouraged it.

[TravelingChris]

Our church would never use Answers in Genesis curriculum for anything. We would never be members in a church where YE was laid out as a salvation issue.  We have been in churches where there were some YE people  and that included United Methodist and Cumberland Presbyterian.  There may well be someone at my church that is YE and,maybe a number.

 

I do think that some church near me is having that curriculum for VBS because when I checked what their theme is this year, it looks familiar like I have seen it somewhere.  But it isn't one of the more well known churches, I think, because I just checked the Church of Christ, a Bible church, and a Baptist church all very popular here and none of them have that.

[2_girls_mommy]

I really hate the VBS cds - our always "break".

 

I've never seen a VBS that talked about being saved, really - it isn't really that simple in Anglicanism or the other traditions we interact with in that way.  The typical response you might get the the question "are you saved" is "I hope so".

 When dd was going to attend a church camp with a Baptist friend we had to have a talk about the concept of being "saved." It's just not a concept that comes up for us in our denomination either.  I have a book for youths in our denomination that gives the cute answer, "Yes, I was saved 2,000 years ago by Jesus" if they are asked about it. 

[TravelingChris]

I didn't know that Answers in Genesis was selling VBS programs. I knew that I had seen the program offered this year somewhere so I checked. It is a church I pass all the time that also offers Awana. It is a Bible church so I am not sure if that is some denomination I have not heard about or a non denominational church. Many churches here of many denominations are using Makers Mark and that includes Catholics, Methodists, Southern Baptists, etc. Our church used a sports team this year and since people grabbed the snack preparation part before it was announced to the church, I did not help this year. Getting back to the sub topic of AIG program, my kids are way, way past VBS attending years but I would have never sent my kids to such a VBS. I have occasionally met YE believers in my mainstream churches but they were never a majority nor did they believe it was a salvation issue. Most churches we attended are full of OE people with divisions between macro evolutionists and ID people but not as a salvation issue.

[Guest]

Oh yeah. There's no way my kids would've gone to that vbs either.

The AIG VBS's are fantastic, to be honest they're the best prepackaged ones I've seen in terms of actually teaching scripture and theology. If you're not pretty expositional in your preaching and teaching preferences it's a bad fit, but it's not really denomination specific at all. It is, however, one that takes Genesis as is. The one we are doing this year has more to do with how the canon of scripture was established - not creation. But it is there as a background premise.

 

Any number of denominations would agree with the materials. I'd say only the Amazon adventure AIG VBS was explicit about seven day creation and that came out almost a decade ago.

 

Just FYI :)

[Guest]

I think churches should be more cautious than most are. It's true that what you attract them WITH is what you attract them TO. Great care should be taken to include plenty of substance with entertainments. When churches don't (and this isn't just about VBS) they aren't really doing what God called them to.

 

I grew up Southern Baptist, so VBS was all about getting kids to say the "sinner's prayer" and walking the aisle at the end of the week. I'm theologically opposed to that kind of thing as I became a hardline, TULIP waving, 5 point Calvinist on election as an adult in my late 20s. I won't allow my children in a church that do those things.

 

I don't have a problem with VBS in summer if it's truly Bible School. If churches want to teach Bible stories, have fun activities and songs based on them, eat some snacks, and invite children in the community to join them, and then invite the parents to come back with their kids for regular church services so they can learn more about the faith, I'm all for it. Walk Through the Bible and Life of Jesus types of things can be well done in fun and substantive ways. But the heavy handed evangelism with kids is something I'm theologically opposed to. I think Jesus' command to weigh the cost before making any sort of profession of faith is largely ignored by a lot of churches and is something children cannot really do. Kids often believe what the adults tell them, not because of genuine conversion, but because kids are hard wired to believe what adults tell them. I also think warnings against taking communion unworthily is ignored. Because of this lack of caution and discernment The Church is corrupted by it-wheat and tares and all.

 

I don't want people mistaking the cult of Churchianity for the conversion of Christianity-white washed tombs and all.

This is almost exactly how we feel about VBS. The last two churches I've attended focus on teaching doctrine and NO sinner's prayer or any such nonsense, but they do encourage the kids to talk more with their leaders or the pastor if they have more questions.

 

I kind of wish they could just call it Sunday School Intensive instead of VBS, because the latter has such a bad wrap. But I've been very encouraged at how it has been handled at the churches we have attended.

 

I wouldn't send my kids to 70% of the VBS camps I've seen advertised for just that reason though - no whitewashed tombs and kids who think because they prayed a prayer that one time at VBS that they've punched their salvation timecard and are good.

[FaithManor]

For what it is worth, I am adamantly opposed to "salvation" oriented programs for kids with the "make a decision" moments. It is all emotional manipulation that takes advantage of not only peer pressure but also the innate child like need to please the adults, as well as potential fear of not doing what the authority figures says should be done.

 

Faith should never be rooted in manipulation, stress, and pressure. That it is done to kids is unconscionable, but it happens a lot in holiness association affiliated churches.

 

We only sent our kids to VBS three times and in all three instances we were working in these programs which we were okay with.

 

My mother's church is desperate for workers this year. We do not attend,but everyone there knows us so we were asked to help out. Absolutely not! Answers in Genesis materials with a big "hit the altar" push at the end. Cannot run fast enough from that.

[athomeontheprairie]

The AIG VBS's are fantastic, to be honest they're the best prepackaged ones I've seen in terms of actually teaching scripture and theology. If you're not pretty expositional in your preaching and teaching preferences it's a bad fit, but it's not really denomination specific at all. It is, however, one that takes Genesis as is. The one we are doing this year has more to do with how the canon of scripture was established - not creation. But it is there as a background premise.

 

Any number of denominations would agree with the materials. I'd say only the Amazon adventure AIG VBS was explicit about seven day creation and that came out almost a decade ago.

 

Just FYI :)

I haven't seen the material.

We've been to two churches that have used the same material-and the two programs were very different.

And having led one-neither followed the script given ðŸ˜. Churches do, can and should, take leeway to make a prepackaged program their own.

 

In our case, the YE angle is being pushed so strongly...almost to the exclusion of everything else. I wouldn't attend a program that uses AIG but only because the people I know would be using it to emphasize a particular view, not to teach scripture (though to be fair, those using it would say they ARE teaching scripture.) Imnsho, they know that when they choose a program with such a worldview many will disagree and consequently not come. If the point is to reach kids... Maybe don't choose a divisive program?

But that really wasn't my intent when I started the thread. Just noticed that different churches have different goals, and was curious what others goals might be.

[Guest]

I haven't seen the material.

We've been to two churches that have used the same material-and the two programs were very different.

And having led one-neither followed the script given ðŸ˜. Churches do, can and should, take leeway to make a prepackaged program their own.

 

In our case, the YE angle is being pushed so strongly...almost to the exclusion of everything else. I wouldn't attend a program that uses AIG but only because the people I know would be using it to emphasize a particular view, not to teach scripture (though to be fair, those using it would say they ARE teaching scripture.) Imnsho, they know that when they choose a program with such a worldview many will disagree and consequently not come. If the point is to reach kids... Maybe don't choose a divisive program?

But that really wasn't my intent when I started the thread. Just noticed that different churches have different goals, and was curious what others goals might be.

Oh ITA with you on that. There are plenty of churches in the area that we would agree with on paper doctrinally but they're so unbalanced and loveless and weird in real life we couldn't attend. And I agree with Faith, too, that any VBS program with a salvation push alter call is a problem, all base curriculum aside. That is a deal breaker for me, personally, but I was raised in a denomination with problems with that!

[Guest]

The AIG VBS's are fantastic, to be honest they're the best prepackaged ones I've seen in terms of actually teaching scripture and theology. If you're not pretty expositional in your preaching and teaching preferences it's a bad fit, but it's not really denomination specific at all. It is, however, one that takes Genesis as is. The one we are doing this year has more to do with how the canon of scripture was established - not creation. But it is there as a background premise.

 

Any number of denominations would agree with the materials. I'd say only the Amazon adventure AIG VBS was explicit about seven day creation and that came out almost a decade ago.

 

Just FYI :)

I don't care how great it is, I'm not giving anything associated with AIG a second of my time or a dime of my money.

 

Our church uses a Group program that collaborates with Our Sunday Visitor. It is Catholic, fun and not at all heavy-handed. No one will have a salvation moment at our VBS but that wasn't ever really the goal.

[Moonhawk]

Hmm. I'm Catholic, never heard of VBS until maybe a couple of years ago.  I have seen signs in front of a few churches up in the city for "summer day camps", and have heard of people going to "bible school" but the idea of a vacation bible school as a activity for kids is relatively new to me. Thinking of a few of my coworkers, I know they mentioned summer activities their kids went to at their church, so it must be around here and I'm just not plugged into it. No parish I've been a part of (4 or 5) has done this, though.

 

Just adding because I saw another person(s?) who hadn't heard of it until they were older, either, and wanted to second that perspective. Maybe it is regional?

[Lawyer&Mom]

Growing up in coastal California I never, ever heard of VBS. Completely foreign concept. There are church sponsored summer camps, but they cost money and usually involve cabins and canoes.

 

The whole salvation thing with kids seems deeply icky to me.

[SamanthaCarter]

I don't want an alter call, but moral therapeutic deism is more problematic here, and imo, just as icky.

 

 

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[Daria]

It depends on the age group. I teach in the 4 year olds and we do not have a salvation message.  We teach the children about God and help them associate church with a place they want to be.

 

The 6th graders have a special Vacation Bible school where they hear a short message and spend the rest of the time swimming in a pool.  It is their last year being able to attend Vacation Bible School as a recipient (7th grade and above are used as volunteers and helpers in the younger grades) and so it is treated as a long party.  The church does many special things the 6th grade year though and this is part of that.  I know they have one night in the grade school level VBS that they do talk about how salvation is a personal relationship with Christ and allow time for one-on-one discussions with children that want to know more

 

But if your faith teaches that believing in Jesus and God is the path to salvation, wouldn't the end goal of teaching them about God, and encouraging them to go to church, be to have them grow up to be Christian, and thus saved?  

 

I grew up Episcopalian, which is a little more confusing on the salvation issue since many Episcopalians believe that non-Christians can go to heaven, but even there the goal of VBS was for children to have fun but also to learn about Jesus, with the goal that they would be more likely to believe in Jesus.  

 

 

[Bluegoat]

But if your faith teaches that believing in Jesus and God is the path to salvation, wouldn't the end goal of teaching them about God, and encouraging them to go to church, be to have them grow up to be Christian, and thus saved?  

 

I grew up Episcopalian, which is a little more confusing on the salvation issue since many Episcopalians believe that non-Christians can go to heaven, but even there the goal of VBS was for children to have fun but also to learn about Jesus, with the goal that they would be more likely to believe in Jesus.  

 

 

 

Perhaps this is true to some extent, but it's more like opening a door they might one day choose to step through. 

 

Though, as an Anglican myself, I would not say I am hoping for them to be saved one day, because they are already saved.  The goal of meeting Christ would be for them to know and experience that reality.

[TravelingChris]

My middle kid got the salvation issue in Awanas which they were in for a year or two. She got very concerned about how Jesus was going to fit in her heart with the blood and everything. She also later told me that she just kept accepting Jesus over and over no matter who asked her to accept him as

her Savior. Therefore my take on these things, be particularly careful of more evangelistic approaches with young children who have a strong analytical sense.

[winterbaby]

We don't have the same issue.  I'm opposed to infant baptism too for basically the same reasons.  I only go to churches that practice believer's baptism of people mature enough to fully grasp weighing the cost, who believe regeneration can only happen with genuine, conscious repentance and conscious faith, and who don't do aisle walking and sinner's prayer. In my mind there's no significant difference between baptizing an infant or an older child.

 

That would seem to predicate salvation on a disposition or quality within ourselves, which has me scratching my head because I thought Calvinism was strongly monergistic.

 

[Guest]

That would seem to predicate salvation on a disposition or quality within ourselves, which has me scratching my head because I thought Calvinism was strongly monergistic.

 

It is, and at least in our circles baptism is a sacrament to be protected by the church and partaken in as a public statement of an individual's salvation and affirmation of the Lord, which are the result of the supernatural regeneration of their souls.

 

Essentially God saves, we celebrate and seek to worship him and commune with other believers, and baptism is a part of that celebration. Clear as mud?

 

And thank you for knowing what monergism is. It makes my nerd heart super happy :D

 

 

Totally off topic of VBS, sorry!

Edited June 21, 2017 by Arctic Mama

[winterbaby]

It is, and at least in our circles baptism is a sacrament to be protected by the church and partaken in as a public statement of an individual's salvation and affirmation of the Lord, which are the result of the supernatural regeneration of their souls.

 

Essentially God saves, we celebrate and seek to worship him and commune with other believers, and baptism is a part of that celebration. Clear as mud?

 

And thank you for knowing what monergism is. It makes my nerd heart super happy :D

 

 

Totally off topic of VBS, sorry!

 

But many in the Reformed tradition practice infant baptism.

 

[HS Mom in NC]

That would seem to predicate salvation on a disposition or quality within ourselves, which has me scratching my head because I thought Calvinism was strongly monergistic.

 

 

So when Jesus said weight the cost, you think he was talking to infants? Or do you believe that all infants are elect so you baptize them?  When Nicodemus asked what he needed in order to have eternal life Jesus told him he had to be born again (regenerated.) Whether God causes the elect to respond in faith and repentance so that they can be regenerated or you believe that individuals are able to freely choose salvation and regeneration or themselves apart from God causing it to happen, those are separate from infant baptism.  They may teach Calvinism on election requires infant baptism in your denomination, but not all denominations with a Calvinistic point of view on election teach infant baptism.

 

[HS Mom in NC]

But many in the Reformed tradition practice infant baptism.

 

 

Reformed Baptists don't.

 

[Guest]

But many in the Reformed tradition practice infant baptism.

 

Reformed in name or in doctrine? Modern century or back when infant mortality was through the roof? I haven't found almost any outside of the conservative Presbyterians and Lutherans who do.

 

But I'm also non-denom, with strong Reformed Baptist leanings (no congregations up here but we identify with them very much) and that's not a thing in that denomination :)

Edited June 21, 2017 by Arctic Mama

[Paige]

Churches who practice infant baptism do not typically believe it actually functions to "save" the child like a Baptist thinks of salvation and they don't think it means the child is a believer. It's really not the same thing at all. In the churches I've been a part of, infant baptism is a way of welcoming the child into the community and of the congregation saying they will look out for the well being of the child. It's the church's commitment to the child, not the child's commitment to the church, kwim? 

 

I was raised Baptist and it was all down on infant baptism, and I was taught it was terrible, but it's really like the churches are using the word to mean very different things. 

 

I only say "typically" because I'm not familiar with every church and perhaps there's some that differ, but I've never seen it. 

[winterbaby]

So when Jesus said weight the cost, you think he was talking to infants? Or do you believe that all infants are elect so you baptize them?  When Nicodemus asked what he needed in order to have eternal life Jesus told him he had to be born again (regenerated.) Whether God causes the elect to respond in faith and repentance so that they can be regenerated or you believe that individuals are able to freely choose salvation and regeneration or themselves apart from God causing it to happen, those are separate from infant baptism.  They may teach Calvinism on election requires infant baptism in your denomination, but not all denominations with a Calvinistic point of view on election teach infant baptism.

 

 

Well, I'm not in a Calvinist denomination so that much of it is somewhat academic to me. It's up to you if you believe one has to do something to be saved - plenty of people do - I guess I misunderstood Calvinist teaching on unconditionality. Is it that God unconditionally elects you to be the kind of person who does what's required?

 

My own belief in infant baptism has a lot to do with the idea that it's God who does the saving and regenerating. I am no more capable or fit to be saved than an infant, in fact I would say considerably less so because of the many actual personal sins I have piled up compared to an infant. Christ does indeed tell us to count the cost, as he commands many things, but of myself I am unable to keep any of his commands. I certainly can't claim a complete understanding of the nature of discipleship. Are those who die before reaching the age of understanding all condemned? What about disabled persons who are never capable?

[forty-two]

Reformed in name or in doctrine? Modern century or back when infant mortality was through the roof? I haven't found almost any outside of the conservative Presbyterians and Lutherans who do.

Lutheran here - I've always understood "Reformed" to refer particularly to the Calvinistic branch of the Reformation, not to both the Calvinistic branch and the Lutheran branch. Also, I thought a sizable chunk of the Reformed practiced infant baptism - at the very least, I thought most all Presbyterians did? But I have no idea the ratio of Presbyterians to other Reformed churches.

Churches who practice infant baptism do not typically believe it actually functions to "save" the child like a Baptist thinks of salvation and they don't think it means the child is a believer. It's really not the same thing at all. In the churches I've been a part of, infant baptism is a way of welcoming the child into the community and of the congregation saying they will look out for the well being of the child. It's the church's commitment to the child, not the child's commitment to the church, kwim?

 

I was raised Baptist and it was all down on infant baptism, and I was taught it was terrible, but it's really like the churches are using the word to mean very different things.

 

I only say "typically" because I'm not familiar with every church and perhaps there's some that differ, but I've never seen it.

 

At least for Lutherans (and Catholic and Orthodox), we do believe that God gives salvation through baptism, and we do consider baptized infants to be fellow believers. For us baptism is first and foremost *God's* commitment to the child.

 

What you wrote matches how I've seen (Calvinistic) Reformed beliefs about infant baptism described, though.

Edited June 21, 2017 by forty-two

[Reefgazer]

The church I was raised in (Reformed) practices infant baptism.

Lutheran here - I've always understood "Reformed" to refer particularly to the Calvinistic branch of the Reformation, not to both the Calvinistic branch and the Lutheran branch. Also, I thought a sizable chunk of the Reformed practiced infant baptism - at the very least, I thought most all Presbyterians did? But I have no idea the ratio of Presbyterians to other Reformed churches.
At least for Lutherans (and Catholic and Orthodox), we do believe that God gives salvation through baptism, and we do consider baptized infants to be fellow believers. For us baptism is first and foremost *God's* commitment to the child.

What you wrote matches how I've seen (Calvinistic) Reformed beliefs about infant baptism described, though.