Breaking news...Otto Warmbier is being/has been released by North Korea Update: 6/19 Otto has died.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Small scale is often wrong (in any sort of testing TBH).

Often wrong is again a massive overstatement.

[creekland]

Often wrong is again a massive overstatement.

 

Again, suit yourself.  In science we start with small scale testing to get ideas of whether something will work or think of things we can tweak to make the experiment better without devoting a lot of expense or time.  We certainly don't use it for "conclusive results."  It's often wrong when larger studies or experiments are done.  There are simply things that can't be scaled down and those can skew the results.  I can't think of a single time IME when something small scale was used as a conclusive result - except some negative results ("well, that won't work").  I can think of several times what seemed to be impressive with small scale turned out to be almost totally wrong once larger scale testing was done.  Many health "remedies" come to mind, but there are others too.

 

But YMMV.

[Pawz4me]

Of course you are diverse in these things. So are Canadians. They are huge countries.

The population of Canada is minuscule compared to the US. Canada may be diverse but it can't compare to a country that has about 285 million more people.

 

ETA: Based on the rest of your post (the part I didn't quote) I think you must be woefully uneducated on what an American looks, sounds or acts like. My guess is you've got some decades old generalized stereotype in your head and are making assumptions based on that. My neighborhood has Americans who came from Romania, Uganda, Panama and Mexico as well as from many other states. All of them as far as I know are legal citizens. It's highly unlikely anyone would be able to pinpoint many of them as Americans, let alone as being residents of this state.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Pawz4me

[creekland]

The population of Canada is minuscule compared to the US. Canada may be diverse but it can't compare to a country that has about 285 million more people.

 

You might be surprised with a visit to, say, Toronto, then Prince Edward Island, then Nova Scotia, then Montreal, then rural Quebec, and back to Ottawa... and I haven't even gone out west yet.

 

Numbers don't really equal diversity.  Percentages do.  Canada varies - as does the US.

 

That said, there are some personality and cultural differences that make up the norm for each country - just like there are for other countries.  Hockey is huge there.  American Football is huge here.  Neither have 100% of the population following them though.

[creekland]

Often wrong is again a massive overstatement.

 

I would still love to see your links regarding nuclear EMP testing that has been done since the 80's showing what was thought of before is inaccurate.  That field still intrigues me - and I still use my previous knowledge when in school if on the subject.  If I'm not up to date, I'd like proof (not hearsay) I can look at to change my views.  I want to be able to see summaries of the tests - small scale or otherwise.  I trust you got your info from somewhere.

[Pawz4me]

You might be surprised with a visit to, say, Toronto, then Prince Edward Island, then Nova Scotia, then Montreal, then rural Quebec, and back to Ottawa... and I haven't even gone out west yet.

 

Numbers don't really equal diversity. Percentages do. Canada varies - as does the US.

 

That said, there are some personality and cultural differences that make up the norm for each country - just like there are for other countries. Hockey is huge there. American Football is huge here. Neither have 100% of the population following them though.

I wouldn't be surprised, as I've been to most of those places within the past few years. They are certainly no more diverse than what I see in my own area. And my point was that the sheer number of Americans means there are more of us to travel. People in other countries are more likely to encounter American diversity than Canadian diversity.

[creekland]

I wouldn't be surprised, as I've been to most of those places within the past few years. They are certainly no more diverse than what I see in my own area. And my point was that the sheer number of Americans means there are more of us to travel. People in other countries are more likely to encounter American diversity than Canadian diversity.

 

Ok, I misunderstood you then.  Too many people I encounter envision Canada as the Great White North and know nothing else about it.

 

FWIW, I'm not sure the percentages of those who travel is different.  When we've been to places we go in the south in winter, we seem equally likely to encounter Canadians escaping winter with us as Americans.  I've often wondered if they left anybody back in Canada to run the place considering the population difference.   :lol:

[MommyLiberty5013]

What would you expect an offended person to do?  Go tear off the flag?

 

It sounds like you might...

 

As I stated in my PP, I am not refuting your experience, but I was just sharing my experience as I travel a lot and my mom is also Canadian.

 

I have lived in Ohio, Finland, Spain, the UK, Colorado, Kentucky, Iowa, and now Minnesota and I have traveled to nearly every state in this nation too. I have my favorite places and I have some places I would prefer not to visit again.

 

I can, without a doubt tell you that you cannot make such broad, sweeping generalizes about Americans as you have in your PPs. I do agree with you though, that sometimes Americans can be louder than other cultures people, which is why we might stick out in foreign nations. But is loudness and different dress a reason to generalize everyone? Or, are they wrong? And, tourists are tourists. LOL. I recall a Chinese woman touching, with her bare hand, a painting in the Louvre and getting reprimanded by the guard. But this still does not cause me to generalize all Chinese travelers. I sense that you have and actively do generalize all American travelers, which is not fair.

 

I think there is a lot of pride in one's own country AKA patriotism. As a Canadian, you have a lot to be proud of, so I can see why an American wearing your flag might upset you, but seriously, what is so wrong with wanting to "fit in?" That whole....when in Rome...

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Again, suit yourself.  In science we start with small scale testing to get ideas of whether something will work or think of things we can tweak to make the experiment better without devoting a lot of expense or time.  We certainly don't use it for "conclusive results."  It's often wrong when larger studies or experiments are done.  There are simply things that can't be scaled down and those can skew the results.  I can't think of a single time IME when something small scale was used as a conclusive result - except some negative results ("well, that won't work").  I can think of several times what seemed to be impressive with small scale turned out to be almost totally wrong once larger scale testing was done.  Many health "remedies" come to mind, but there are others too.

 

But YMMV.

 

How much testing have you done with EMPs?

[creekland]

How much testing have you done with EMPs?

 

None - we worked off past data others had summarized for us.  This is why I'm asking you for links.  How much have you done?

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I would still love to see your links regarding nuclear EMP testing that has been done since the 80's showing what was thought of before is inaccurate.  That field still intrigues me - and I still use my previous knowledge when in school if on the subject.  If I'm not up to date, I'd like proof (not hearsay) I can look at to change my views.  I want to be able to see summaries of the tests - small scale or otherwise.  I trust you got your info from somewhere.

 

Again, what you studied in the 80s was, and is, accurate.  I stated that above.  In the event of a large scale nuclear war, there would be serious effects from EMPs.

 

I was addressing the concern that many have that NK's limited nuclear arsenal can create a large scale EMP effect in the United States.

 

I don't feel like being your Google Monkey today so I will let you do your own research.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

None - we worked off past data others had summarized for us.  This is why I'm asking you for links.  How much have you done?

 

 

When were they doing large scale EMP tests?

[scoutingmom]

I have nothing to stop. Stop stereotyping those of us who travel on this thread. I might get the impression that "all Canadians are rude" from your posts.

 

Americans do this for a reason.  Think about it 2 seconds.

[scoutingmom]

It sounds like you might...

 

As I stated in my PP, I am not refuting your experience, but I was just sharing my experience as I travel a lot and my mom is also Canadian.

 

I have lived in Ohio, Finland, Spain, the UK, Colorado, Kentucky, Iowa, and now Minnesota and I have traveled to nearly every state in this nation too. I have my favorite places and I have some places I would prefer not to visit again.

 

I can, without a doubt tell you that you cannot make such broad, sweeping generalizes about Americans as you have in your PPs. I do agree with you though, that sometimes Americans can be louder than other cultures people, which is why we might stick out in foreign nations. But is loudness and different dress a reason to generalize everyone? Or, are they wrong? And, tourists are tourists. LOL. I recall a Chinese woman touching, with her bare hand, a painting in the Louvre and getting reprimanded by the guard. But this still does not cause me to generalize all Chinese travelers. I sense that you have and actively do generalize all American travelers, which is not fair.

 

I think there is a lot of pride in one's own country AKA patriotism. As a Canadian, you have a lot to be proud of, so I can see why an American wearing your flag might upset you, but seriously, what is so wrong with wanting to "fit in?" That whole....when in Rome...

 

When in Rome act like a Greek?

 

We aren't talking about Americans traveling in Canada

[scoutingmom]

Ok, yes.  This is a hot topic for me because I have experienced the repercussions of it.  

[Jean in Newcastle]

Americans do this for a reason. Think about it 2 seconds.

No. Some Americans do it. There was one (perhaps two ) people on this thread who have mentioned doing it. The others don't. And frankly there is no need.

 

I have been around hundreds of ex-pats over the years from the US , Canada, UK, Sweden, not to mention Kenya, Korea, China and I could go on. The Americans I knew didn't do anything differently from any of the ex-pats from other countries. No one tried to hide or particularly advertise their nationality. Of course they all had their home cultures but first and foremost they were individuals. Stereotypes are spread when people make gross generalizations and then try to pass that off as being true for all.

[MommyLiberty5013]

When in Rome act like a Greek?

 

We aren't talking about Americans traveling in Canada

When you are a world traveler, act like a citizen of the world, carry whatever flag makes you happy and makes you connected to the places you are visiting, or represents your nationality, or the nationality to the north of you, or the nationality you like the most.

 

You all have a pretty flag. See it as a compliment.

[MommyLiberty5013]

Americans do this for a reason.  Think about it 2 seconds.

They like Canada, have family there, have traveled there and are collecting flag patches, they are on a world-wide tour and Canada was the first stop, they are on the Amazing Race. They like maple leaves? Their favorite colors are red and white? They admire your nation? At one time they were Canadian, but aren't now and wanted a piece of the homeland?

 

I don't know. Would you enlighten us?

[creekland]

Again, what you studied in the 80s was, and is, accurate.  I stated that above.  In the event of a large scale nuclear war, there would be serious effects from EMPs.

 

I was addressing the concern that many have that NK's limited nuclear arsenal can create a large scale EMP effect in the United States.

 

I don't feel like being your Google Monkey today so I will let you do your own research.

 

Well, this says volumes in itself to me.

 

When were they doing large scale EMP tests?

 

I posted a link that gave the dates of the info worked from with Soviet and US nuclear tests in the 60's.  Afterward it was agreed upon to do no more above ground tests if I recall correctly.  That's why I'm wondering where any new data has come from.  Your posts have implied it's out there.  I'm open to updating my information as I haven't kept up on it since "my day," but... I'd rather not take the word of "someone on the internet said..." 

[creekland]

They like Canada, have family there, have traveled there and are collecting flag patches, they are on a world-wide tour and Canada was the first stop, they are on the Amazing Race. They like maple leaves? Their favorite colors are red and white? They admire your nation? At one time they were Canadian, but aren't now and wanted a piece of the homeland?

 

I don't know. Would you enlighten us?

 

To put it point blank, usually they are scared thinking Americans are going to be targeted for terrorism.  Canadians are less likely to be the targets (in their mind), so they want to pass off as being Canadian even if they've never actually been to Canada, though they may have.  It's a common suggestion among those who fear in order to try to stay safe.  Let's face it.  The US Gov't is not always widely admired outside our own country.  This is NOT solely dependent upon the latest person in power.

 

Their fear may or may not be warranted.  Lately terrorism seems to be targeting "whoever they get."  However, some lunatics out there may, indeed, want to target Americans.  Who knows?  Since it's well known that many who sport a Canadian patch are American, it could technically put Canadians at a higher risk.

 

Is that simple enough?

 

The "other" discussion about who's who in tourism is completely different TBH.  MANY people enjoy trying to figure out where others are from and use cues to figure it out.  Sometimes those cues are positive (known to spend money, love the accent, etc) and sometimes they aren't (lack of personal space, loud, heavy drinkers who get boisterous).  Not all of these are US traits BTW.  I put a mix in of what we've heard on purpose.

[MBM]

The Roots stores in the US sell their Canada line here, including clothing with Canada written on it as well as the maple leaf.

 

https://www.roots.com/us/en/homepage

 

I do a lot of traveling and do not know anyone on my travel forums who actually sews on flags from other countries or whatnot. I don't think it's as prevalent as some might think.

 

My husband just went to Italy to visit family. He was hemming and hawing about what shoes to wear and decided to ask his cousin there what he should do. His cousin told him that they all wear sneakers like the Americans. Thought that was funny. They live near the lakes. Milan could be different, though.

 

[creekland]

I do a lot of traveling and do not know anyone on my travel forums who actually sews on flags from other countries or whatnot. I don't think it's as prevalent as some might think.

 

I wonder too as I don't know anyone personally who does it, esp if they travel often.  I've wondered when I've seen it (usually on a backpack or shirt) once in a while though.  I've never asked the wearer.

 

That said, some of the folks we've talked with (drivers, waiters, etc) have mentioned not being able to tell by seeing a Canadian flag, so it must happen often enough - or maybe they've all just heard about it too and are passing it on.

[AmandaVT]

Just read an AP update that Otto has died. :-( 

[Corraleno]

They like Canada, have family there, have traveled there and are collecting flag patches, they are on a world-wide tour and Canada was the first stop, they are on the Amazing Race. They like maple leaves? Their favorite colors are red and white? They admire your nation? At one time they were Canadian, but aren't now and wanted a piece of the homeland?

 

I don't know. Would you enlighten us?

 

Americans pretending to be Canadian while traveling abroad is an actual thing, and has been since at least the 70s when I was in high school. It is particularly common among backpackers, bicyclists, campers; someone in this very thread recommended it for a bicyclist this summer. You may disagree with Scoutingmom that this is offensive, but pretending that the people who do this "just like maple leaves," or the colors red & white, is disingenuous. They are specifically impersonating Canadians in order to avoid (real or imagined) anti-American sentiment — that's the whole point of it.

 

ETA: And Scoutingmom never said that ALL Americans do it, or that ALL Americans are obnoxious travelers or anything like that. She just objected to the practice of Americans impersonating Canadians because it can make people abroad suspicious of Canadians. I don't understand why people are jumping all over her for that.  :confused1:

 

For anyone who doesn't believe this is a "thing," here are a few articles about it:

 

Americans, Canadians, and Flags

Why Traveling with a Canadian Flag Patch is Lame

How to Pretend You're Canadian When You Travel

As a US Traveler I Sported a Canadian Flag Patch

[Lanny]

Just read an AP update that Otto has died. :-( 

 

If that is true his suffering is over. Please include his family in your prayers.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Just read an AP update that Otto has died. :-( 

 

I'm so sorry to hear this.  The one small comfort is that his family were able to be by his side and that they were not left in the dark about his death (like they might have been if he had just "disappeared".) 

[Lady Florida.]

Just read an AP update that Otto has died. :-( 

 

:( I'm not surprised but feel so bad for his family.

[AmandaVT]

Adding a link: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/otto-warmbier-dead_us_594834d4e4b0cddbb008ccff?ncid=tweetlnkushpmg00000067

[Pawz4me]

The Washington Post also reports that he has died. Apparently his parents made the announcement.:(

[Lanny]

Well, this says volumes in itself to me.

 

 

I posted a link that gave the dates of the info worked from with Soviet and US nuclear tests in the 60's.  Afterward it was agreed upon to do no more above ground tests if I recall correctly.  That's why I'm wondering where any new data has come from.  Your posts have implied it's out there.  I'm open to updating my information as I haven't kept up on it since "my day," but... I'd rather not take the word of "someone on the internet said..." 

 

+1     Let us see some facts, from sources that are qualified to know, and sources that are not anonymous.    If there was little risk or no risk, of an EMP from a Nuclear weapon detonated in the air causing a lot of damage, the U.S. Govt. could save a lot of money by not needing to "harden" things.   I wonder what DARPA thinks about the theory of the risk of an EMP causing a lot of damage is very low.  Ask the State of Hawaii government and the U.S. Military people there, what they think about damage from an EMP there in the early 60s from an above-ground Nuclear test and the potential for an EMP from a device sent by NK.

[MBM]

How sad. I feel so terrible for his family and so much worse for what he must have endured. :(

[Catwoman]

I'm so sorry to hear this. The one small comfort is that his family were able to be by his side and that they were not left in the dark about his death (like they might have been if he had just "disappeared".)

I know it's unlikely, but I hope that he knew in some way that he was home with his family before he died. :crying:

[unsinkable]

Can we please leave this thread now for Otto? Please start other threads for the other topics. PLease.

 

 

Thank you

[2squared]

The Roots stores in the US sell their Canada line here, including clothing with Canada written on it as well as the maple leaf.

 

https://www.roots.com/us/en/homepage

 

I do a lot of traveling and do not know anyone on my travel forums who actually sews on flags from other countries or whatnot. I don't think it's as prevalent as some might think.

 

My husband just went to Italy to visit family. He was hemming and hawing about what shoes to wear and decided to ask his cousin there what he should do. His cousin told him that they all wear sneakers like the Americans. Thought that was funny. They live near the lakes. Milan could be different, though.

In London now, and I'm seeing Nike shoes everywhere. Sneakers are not just American anymore.

 

I was asked what nationality I am today, so I guess we aren't obvious Americans. We aren't carrying or wearing any flags, but my dd did buy a shirt with a British flag on it. I'm thinking I shouldn't let her wear it until we get home? My ds has been wearing a hat that says London on it. Maybe I should not let him wear it? He's the only boy I've seen wearing a baseball hat, so I'm guessing that would signal American anyway?

[Audrey]

Can we please leave this thread now for Otto? Please start other threads for the other topics. PLease.

 

 

Thank you

 

 

Quite sadly, he's died now, so the thread is kind of over.   I'm so sorry it couldn't have been a better outcome for him and his family.  Such a sad shame. :(

[MBM]

His father did get to see him for Father's Day. Ugh. Can't imagine how heartbroken they are.

[Lanny]

In this statement from his family, they wrote that "within a day the countenance of his face changed - he was at peace.  He was home and we believe he could sense that.†  so possibly/hopefully he was more comfortable there and knew, somehow, that he was in a better place and with his family. 

 

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/06/19/otto-warmbier-dead-former-us-prisoner-north-korea-was-22.html

 

I agree with the suggestion upthread that this thread be limited to Otto now and not for the spin-off topics.

[unsinkable]

Quite sadly, he's died now, so the thread is kind of over. I'm so sorry it couldn't have been a better outcome for him and his family. Such a sad shame. :(

Yes, I know he died. That is why I asked for the other topics to stop.

[Paige]

So sorry for his family and friends. I hope someday they will learn what actually happened. 

[mommyoffive]

Well I didn't know anything about him or how he was held there.  I have no words.   

 

I am praying for his family and friends.   Insane that he was held for taking a poster.    

[Guest]

Poor young man :(. My heart goes out to his family and I hope the authorities can get to the bottom of how he was injured and possibly why, from investigation and autopsy.

[unsinkable]

I know it's unlikely, but I hope that he knew in some way that he was home with his family before he died. :crying:

I hope so, too.

[PrincessMommy]

May he rest in peace.  What a tragedy. 

[Alicia64]

At one point we lived near the Univ. of VA -- I feel just sad and numb.

 

Poor, poor kid.

 

Alley

[J-rap]

This is so incredibly sad.  An absolutely horrible, horrible situation.  I hope Otto is at peace now.

[Liz CA]

Update 6/19: Otto died. :crying:

 

Oh God. I did not see this coming. Last I heard he was stable but in a vegetative state.

 

[DawnM]

I am sickened.  

 

 

[Cindy in FL.]

So very sad and unnecessary.

[Guest]

Wishing peace and healing for his family. Such a horrible tragedy.

[catz]

I figured this was coming.  I think it is extremely unlikely he was in a coma for a year.  I'm so sorry for his family.  So sad.  :crying: