WWYD (defiant teen, mental health?)

[TrulySusan]

 

PLEASE DO NOT QUOTE

Edited December 31, 2016 by TrulySusan

[Anne in CA]

I think the snake needs to go back, euthanized or not. I would really have a problem with the pet store selling such a thing to a minor without a parent's consent. I couldn't live with a snake, no way, no how. I understand you are worried, but she can't hold you hostage to her mental condition. My own dd struggles with anxiety and we have issues where it is very hard but I am trying to let her know that she can't run over other people. 

[Schadenfreude]

I would check with the store about the snake. In my area if a snake is returned as aggressive it cannot be resold. As far as everything else, I have no advice just :grouphug: and prayers.

[Spryte]

I would call her previous psych and start back immediately. You said it wasn't a good fit, but it was good enough for a while, right? So stick with that while you look for something else. Imperfect help isn't ideal, but it sounds like that person was moderately helpful, and she's gone downhill without that -even imperfect - help.

 

Is she still on her meds?

 

The cutting is what most concerns me. And, well, the snake would, too, but I'd be more worried about her clear need to continue therapy.

[bolt.]

I would find someone else for her to see. ASAP -- if it's not really fast, resume with the previous one.

 

I wouldn't trust myself to do the greatest thing about the snake without collaborating with that person. I would (maybe) tell her that my intent was to safely re-home it or find another good option, and I understood that finding a safe option could take time, and I would work on it.

 

(Plus, I'd call the pet store to verify the 'will be euthanized' story. Hopefully that might have been hot air, and they may take it back without any issues. I'd also tear a strip off them for selling pets to minors without parental consent.)

Edited December 19, 2016 by bolt.

[TrulySusan]

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Edited December 31, 2016 by TrulySusan

[TrulySusan]

Bolt, I also thought the euthanasia might be fabricated. Calling the store to verify is a good idea.

[gardenmom5]

 

I'm very sorry your daughter is going through this.

loosing it to the extent you describe sounds like a teen who has been holding everything inside - snapping and letting it out.  does she have any physical outlets?  the cutting is a stress "outlet" - but it sounds like even that is not enough anymore.

 

I would get her into someone who is a better fit asap.  and possibly have a psychiatrist backup because they can give drugs as needed.  she may well need med adjustments.

 

I wouldn't let her have a say in the snake.  this is your home - has she defined "aggressive"?  are there small children or small pets in your home?  tbh: you only have her word the snake would be euthanized - she could easily just be being dramatic so she can guilty you into letting her keep it.

 

[Hilltopmom]

Hugs.

We've btdt. Call the psych, see if tyry can get her in until you find someone else.

 

In the meantime, try her personal doctor. Our ped was very good with mental health stuff & could call a ped psych to make med decisions when we couldnt get in with one (closest was 3 hrs away).

 

Here, cutting resolved with med changes, & adding anxiety meds to the depression meds, everything else took longer.

 

Its so hard when its hatd to separate whats normal teen rebellion vs mentsl health stuff.

 

This time of year, its dark & cold & stuff tends to get worse.

 

Eta- I just had to make a call this morning to get dd back into her therapist. Red flags coming back.. I really do think its winter related.

You arent alone.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Hilltopmom

[TrulySusan]

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Edited December 31, 2016 by TrulySusan

[gardenmom5]

What made me say not a good fit: psych was fixated on homeschooling being a problem. Extra weird since dd had been back in public school with straight As in advanced classes for 2 years prior to seeing this person, and our reasons for hs were academic, not social. Also, dd never told this lady about cutting, etc., and psy never tried to pull out more info. Maybe that is normal, but it seemed like a waste of time to me.

 

She is still on her meds and we supervise her taking them.

 

did you know about the cutting when she went before?  do you know for sure she was cutting when she went there?   are you positive the psy didn't try to get information out?  my sister admits having LIED/made-things-up to the one my parents took her to.  not sure any adults knew it was baloney.

 

if you can't get her into a new provider within a very short time frame, I would  take her back (while you look for another). tell her about the cutting, etc.   she's gotten worse since being released from that person's care.

she may need changes to her rx.

[TrulySusan]

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Edited December 31, 2016 by TrulySusan

[SporkUK]

I agree with checking with the store and also google for reptile animal rescues. I can't tell if the obsession and outburst and buying a snake is teendom or mental illnesses. I did radically random, weird and risky stuff as a teen that had nothing really to do with my mental health. 

 

I would not send her to an ill-fitting psych. At best it's a waste of time and energy that could hinder proper progress. Obviously, adjustments to medication may need to be considered and an alternative to cutting should be sought.

 

My best recommendation; are there any peer mental health groups in your area? Personally, as a mentally ill once-teen, the peer groups did so much more for me than any psyc. or therapist. Being able to listen and eventually discuss emotions and coping strategies with people my age was such a breath of fresh air for me. Still to this day I remember and use things I learned from others there and continue to find peer group care of such great help even when at first in any group I'm a socially anxious ball trying to hide. 

[Plink]

Agreeing that the story of the aggressive snake seems suspect.  Glad that you are calling to verify.

 

My take on her recent cutting and outburst is that her meds are no longer working for her.  Has she grown or gained weight recently?  It could be as simple as increasing her dose.  I'd contact her prescribing doctor immediately to get her evaluated.

 

 

- In our experience, the snake could not stay.  Whether it took contacting the store or re-homing it via Craig's list, I can't let my own DD's emotional outbursts create rewards.  That will only increase the incidence of self-harm, etc.  Instead, I would speak without emotion, even writing down my words if necessary, and tell DD what we were doing to keep her healthy.  I'd then work my tail off to avoid getting baited into a fight.  For us,  if you look at it long-term, keeping the snake would actually be harmful.

 

I know you are afraid of setting her off again by upsetting her emotionally.  I hate that walking-on-eggshells feeling.  ((hugs))

[maize]

You might look for a psychiatric nurse practitioner--they are often easier to get in with and spend more time with the patient. And ask for a referral to a good therapist.

 

One possibility: do some research on bipolar II, what is going on right now sounds like it could be a hypomanic episode--extra irritability accompanied by impulsive behavior.

[luuknam]

So, yeah, return the snake. That said, I have no idea why you said no to the donkey, and if I were her, I'd probably be pissed about that too.

 

You need to get her to a different psych.

[Ravin]

I would get her seen ASAP, and in the mean time, try and work with her on harm reduction for the cutting.

 

I'm not sure what I'd do about/with the snake.

[TrulySusan]

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Edited December 31, 2016 by TrulySusan

[gardenmom5]

I did not know at the time she was seeing this person. She told me she never told the psy and all they did was chat about school and the horse job during sessions. And the unhelpful advice that social anxiety is all in your head.

 

I think some of her friends know, but no medical people she has seen.

 

She has not been dishonest with me as far as I know,but she has certainly not been open in what all is going on.

 

:huh: :confused1: :ohmy: :svengo:

 

yeah.  don't waste your time taking her back there.

[Selkie]

So, yeah, return the snake. That said, I have no idea why you said no to the donkey, and if I were her, I'd probably be pissed about that too.

 

You need to get her to a different psych.

 

I wondered about that, too. Just out of curiosity, why is a horse okay but not a donkey?

 

ETA:  Never mind, I saw your explanation above!

Edited December 19, 2016 by Selkie

[luuknam]

We said no to the donkey because it was an impulsive idea, never mentioned before yesterday and because she has no money saved for its care. It only cost $50, which is about the total amt of money dd has right now, not an amount that would need to be saved for a horse. Saving up is supposed to insure she really wants the animal, and won't change her mind about it in a few months. There is no emergency fund for the animal, and its board would be about half of what dd earns in a month. And, you can't even ride it. So that is why we said no to getting a donkey.

 

I probably still would've said that she could get it, just like the horse, after she had saved up the emergency fund for it. Which would've delayed the donkey, possibly enough for her to decide she didn't want it after all, but not been an outright 'no'.

[DawnM]

We said no to the donkey because it was an impulsive idea, never mentioned before yesterday and because she has no money saved for its care. It only cost $50, which is about the total amt of money dd has right now, not an amount that would need to be saved for a horse. Saving up is supposed to insure she really wants the animal, and won't change her mind about it in a few months. There is no emergency fund for the animal, and its board would be about half of what dd earns in a month. And, you can't even ride it. So that is why we said no to getting a donkey.

 

You would need to board the animal too?  I thought you had room for it on your property.  I would have said no too.

 

Dawn

[zoobie]

You might look for a psychiatric nurse practitioner--they are often easier to get in with and spend more time with the patient. And ask for a referral to a good therapist.

 

One possibility: do some research on bipolar II, what is going on right now sounds like it could be a hypomanic episode--extra irritability accompanied by impulsive behavior.

I agree that the impulsive behavior is very concerning. Get her in with someone ASAP. I would be concerned that she wasn't being honest with the previous therapist, and if the snake story turns out to be untrue, I would assume she wasn't being honest with you either.

[Selkie]

How long has she been wanting a horse? Is she usually a pretty responsible kid? If so, I would consider buying a horse for her if you can afford it.  

 

I say this because time and again, I've seen the power horses have to soothe the souls of anxious kids. Having a horse of your own to love and care for can be better than any therapist, in my experience. Plus, it's a great motivator to get out of bed in the morning and it keeps kids busy and out of trouble.

 

I understand your idea of making her save up for the horse and an emergency fund, but honestly, that adds up to a lot of money and probably feels like an insurmountable amount to her. I would make an agreement with her that you buy the horse and she pays for some or all of its upkeep.  

 

Again, I would only consider doing this if she is normally a responsible kid and you think she could handle the work and commitment that horse ownership requires.

 

 

[maize]

How long has she been wanting a horse? Is she usually a pretty responsible kid? If so, I would consider buying a horse for her if you can afford it.

 

I say this because time and again, I've seen the power horses have to soothe the souls of anxious kids. Having a horse of your own to love and care for can be better than any therapist, in my experience. Plus, it's a great motivator to get out of bed in the morning and it keeps kids busy and out of trouble.

 

I understand your idea of making her save up for the horse and an emergency fund, but honestly, that adds up to a lot of money and probably feels like an insurmountable amount to her. I would make an agreement with her that you buy the horse and she pays for some or all of its upkeep.

 

Again, I would only consider doing this if she is normally a responsible kid and you think she could handle the work and commitment that horse ownership requires.

It sounds like she is already taking care of horses several days a week. Not sure a personal horse would be a huge jump up in terms of benefit to her mental health.

 

I am in favor of investing in whatever you can find that has a positive impact on mental health.

[Selkie]

It sounds like she is already taking care of horses several days a week. Not sure a personal horse would be a huge jump up in terms of benefit to her mental health.

 

I am in favor of investing in whatever you can find that has a positive impact on mental health.

 

What I have found with my own kids and others is that there is a big difference between having a horse of your own and simply riding a lesson horse or caring for a horse that belongs to someone else. When you have your own horse and you care for it day in and day out, there is a special bond that forms.

[TrulySusan]

 

 

Thanks for all the advice so far. Some of it is easier to take than other, but I am considering all of it.

Edited December 31, 2016 by TrulySusan

[luuknam]

if she is able to go away to college, what would happen in 1.5 years when she is no longer around to spend time with horse or work off its board?

 

Sounds like you need to think about this, and then sit down with her and talk about this, since if I understood correctly, you promised her she could have a horse if she paid for it (and the emergency fund, etc). If she goes to college 2 hours away (which is far from a certainty at 16 - it could be (much) further, or closer), she couldn't take care of the horse day-to-day. So, unless you're planning on taking care of the horse yourself, you probably need to backpedal and let her know that even if she saves up for it, the horse is not going to work out this close to her going to college, unless she could keep it somewhere near her college.

[Terabith]

Personally, the snake seems like a much more rational and practical animal. I've never heard of an aggressive ball python. Don't understand why it has to go.

[luuknam]

Personally, the snake seems like a much more rational and practical animal. I've never heard of an aggressive ball python. Don't understand why it has to go.

 

IMO, and I don't have any particular problems with snakes, it has to go because she was told she could not have one, and she bought it in a fit of anger over being told "no donkey". Behavior like that should not be rewarded.

[Selkie]

She does spend many hours a week with horses. In addition to working, the owner allows her to ride or spend time there any time she wants, as a perk of her job. It is an excellent arrangement, in my opinion. As a not animal person, I don't exactly understand why she needs to own the horse, but I do my best to accomodate her need to spend time with them. A horse is not in our family budget and if she is able to go away to college, what would happen in 1.5 years when she is no longer around to spend time with horse or work off its board? Current plan is for college 2 hrs from home. I really am trying my best with the animal stuff. We have 3 cats, and she has personally recently acquired 2 fish, a fiddler crab, and an iguana (and a snake that won't be staying). I want her to be happy, but I want to be happy too.

 

She is crying now, disappointed in her behavior yesterday. She admits that it was wrong, and that snake will have to go. She said she has no idea why she did that. She just went in to look, but the snake was going to be put down so she bought it. The store is brand new in our community and I can't find the phone number, but I think it is very likely she could have been told this story to sell her the snake. I plan to verify in person as soon as I can go over there. I am also looking for local rescues. The aggressive behavior is that the snake strikes out whenever anything comes near it. It is very small, so no danger to us while it is still here.

 

Thanks for all the advice so far. Some of it is easier to take than other, but I am considering all of it.

 

Yeah, I understand when parents and kids don't share a love for animals. I was the horse-crazy, animal-loving kid and my parents just didn't get it. 

 

If she is set on going to college two hours away, I wouldn't even think about getting a horse since that would obviously not work. My oldest is a senior and is planning to go to college close to home because he can't stand to leave his horses. Fortunately, there is a school nearby with a good engineering program, so it works out well for him.

[Jyhwkmama]

Is she medicated? I think you need to see a psyCHIATRIST.

[luuknam]

Is she medicated? I think you need to see a psyCHIATRIST.

 

In the OP it says she is on medication. But, it sounds like she needs to learn coping skills, which is something a good psychologist would teach, not a psychiatrist. Psychiatrists are mostly useful if you have trouble finding a good medication combination that works.

[maize]

In the OP it says she is on medication. But, it sounds like she needs to learn coping skills, which is something a good psychologist would teach, not a psychiatrist. Psychiatrists are mostly useful if you have trouble finding a good medication combination that works.

 

Or therapist. Lots more options for those in most places.

 

 

ETA in addition to not in place of a psychiatrist/psychiatric nurse practitioner.

Edited December 19, 2016 by maize

[JFSinIL]

She needs a proper psychiatrist and evaluation for possible bipolar (this running off to buy a snake after talking up the donkey sounds like mania).   You have two years before she can refuse to go and doctors won't be able to talk to you without her permission.  The time to get more help is NOW, as it can take a long time to find the right combination/level of meds to help a person.

 

Cutting is not something to ignore, either. 

Edited December 19, 2016 by JFSinIL

[FaithManor]

She needs to see a psychiatrist because with growth and hormonal swings, the body maturing, and such meds often need to be adjusted regularly. It sounds like you need a different psychiatrist.

 

But she probably needs a licensed therapist who specializes in teens with anxiety. She needs someone outside the family, an objective person, in whom she can confide but also learn coping skills. The cutting is serious so if possible getting into a new psych right away is top priority and if necessary go through your primary physician or the ER to get bumped to the top of the must see now list for a therapist and new psychiatrist.

 

My niece did some cutting, and well, let me just say that this shouldn't wait

 

 

(((Hugs)))

[TKDmom]

I agree, you need to seek out a therapist in addition to a psychiatrist.

 

My first psych felt like my decision to homeschool (and just to have 4 kids) was the root of all my problems. I would come out of sessions shaking and it took me the rest of the day to recover from my anger with him. Right after my last visit with him, I sought out an excellent therapist who had been recommended to me by a friend. I got lucky with her. She was never judgmental, and I have always been completely comfortable with her. So I asked her for a recommendation for a new psychiatrist. New psych is so much better. Her job is to listen and evaluate if I need medication changes. My appointments with her are only 15 minutes (first appointment was longer) so we stick to discussing my mood and how I'm doing with meds. Any other issues I need to talk about are worked out with the therapist at a different time.

[lmrich]

I will chime in with the others who say you need a therapist and a psychiatrist. The psych can give the meds and honestly does not spend a lot of time with the patient (our experience with our son) but the therapist is the one they talk to and really needs to be a good fit. 

 

Mental illness is so hard. 

 

Many hugs!

[Janeway]

She needs a proper psychiatrist and evaluation for possible bipolar (this running off to buy a snake after talking up the donkey sounds like mania). You have two years before she can refuse to go and doctors won't be able to talk to you without her permission. The time to get more help is NOW, as it can take a long time to find the right combination/level of meds to help a person.

 

Cutting is not something to ignore, either.

I am going to agree with this. It sounds like her depression is possibly turning out to be bipolar. Find a new psych asap. You might wish to consider a psychologist for an evaluation and then a psych for meds. Edited December 20, 2016 by Janeway

[PollyOR]

From my experience....

 

Psychiatrists are necessary for meds but the the doctor who was a cognitive behavioral therapist made the most difference. 

 

:grouphug:   It's a long road.

 

 

[luuknam]

I disagree it sounds like mania. If a 16yo without any mental health diagnoses had done the same thing, I wouldn't even think about dragging the kid to a psychiatrist. From the teen's perspective, this is what it sounds like to me (of course, I'm not in her head, so I could be wrong):

 

Mom is okay with me getting a horse. But hey, I just came across this donkey, which is almost the same and much cheaper. [mom says no to donkey] What kind of nonsense is this? If I can have a horse, why can't I have a donkey - she didn't even say I needed to save up more. Mom is so controlling. [runs off to pet store, which I assume is a place that's relaxing to her] [looks at snakes, since she's been wanting snakes] [sales person tells her sob story about snake being euthanized if she doesn't buy it] Screw it, I'm getting the snake, that will show mom.

 

And, she's already remorseful.

 

Manic episode typically last much longer than half a day (in fact, by definition they're supposed to last at least a week). Yes, there exists rapid cycling, but realistically... it's a teenager who's into snakes and other animals who bought a snake, ONCE, while angry with mom. You'd be hard pressed to find a teenager that hasn't done something stupid like that at least once.

 

So, sure, have a mental health professional look at her (in fact, like I said before, get her a new psychologist or therapist). But I wouldn't jump to bipolar over just this (and, even if someone deemed this to be (hypo)mania, it'd probably qualify as medication induced, so she still wouldn't end up with a bipolar diagnosis unless she has a (hypo)manic episode while not on an antidepressant).

 

And while cutting tends to freak out parents, it's hardly rare*, so, it's not an indicator that the kid is extremely disturbed or w/e (it does however mean the kid needs to learn better ways to cope with stress).

 

*E.g. 12-37% of young teens cut: https://thriving.childrenshospital.org/study-shows-cutting-prevalent-among-young-teens/

[Jean in Newcastle]

It is not going to hurt a teen to get psychological help. I don't think that cutting or getting a living animal in an angry impulse is normal or healthy.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[maize]

It is not going to hurt a teen to get psychological help. I don't think that cutting or getting a living animal in an angry impulse is normal or healthy.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree. Diagnosis obviously needs to be left to the professionals but I have never seen good come of minimizing mental health difficulties in teens--it is way too easy to write them off as normal teen hormones or whatever until a major crisis such as a suicide attempt. Better IMO to take a proactive approach to helping them achieve optimal health than waiting to see if things escalate/deteriorate.

[gardenmom5]

I don't think anyone was minimizing things.  unless I've missed something - every one is saying her behavior is concerning and she needs help.  some of her issues could be caused by a need to change her meds, or a need to add something to the mix.

[dirty ethel rackham]

<snip>  You have two years before she can refuse to go and doctors won't be able to talk to you without her permission.  The time to get more help is NOW, as it can take a long time to find the right combination/level of meds to help a person.

 

Cutting is not something to ignore, either. 

Yes.  I have a mentally ill young adult who is not letting me on on their care or treatment plan.  It is very, very scary.  If I were to type out many of the things we dealt with, it could look like a young person trying to figure things out and try on new ideas.  But, living with it, I definitely see that it is mental illness.

 

The psychiatrist, preferrably one who works with adolescents, is definitely needed for a correct diagnosis and monitoring of medications.  If you cannot get into a psychiatrist right away, a nurse practitioner in the field would be a good alternative.  A therapist is important here to help learn more positive coping methods. 

[luuknam]

I agree. Diagnosis obviously needs to be left to the professionals but I have never seen good come of minimizing mental health difficulties in teens--it is way too easy to write them off as normal teen hormones or whatever until a major crisis such as a suicide attempt. Better IMO to take a proactive approach to helping them achieve optimal health than waiting to see if things escalate/deteriorate.

 

I agree - I just don't think that saying mania over one incident somebody mentions on the internet (unless the incident is batshit crazy) is a good idea.

 

Here's a decent page on mania - note the 1 week in length requirement and needing at least 3 of the specific symptoms - I'm having a really hard time getting 3 of those symptoms out of OP's post:

 

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/manic-episode/

Edited December 21, 2016 by luuknam

[Guest]

No advice, but I just wanted to point out that there is a SUPER cute picture of newborn sleeping donkeys floating around Facebook in the past week or so. Even I saw it, and I don't see much on Facebook usually. And it was super adorable. Could that have triggered the impulse of wanting a donkey?

 

Eta: I think this is the image:

https://goo.gl/images/1uKvUq

Edited December 21, 2016 by Kinsa

[maize]

I agree - I just don't think that saying mania over one incident somebody mentions on the internet (unless the incident is batshit crazy) is a good idea.

 

Here's a decent page on mania - note the 1 week in length requirement and needing at least 3 of the specific symptoms - I'm having a really hard time getting 3 of those symptoms out of OP's post:

 

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/manic-episode/

 

We weren't trying to diagnose, just suggest a direction to consider. And at least on my part the suggestion was to look specifically at bipolar 2, which does not exhibit mania, only hypomania.

 

Here is a description for hypomania:

 

The DSM-IV-TR defines a hypomanic episode as including, over the course of at least four days, elevated mood plus three of the following symptoms OR irritable mood plus four of the following symptoms:

• pressured speech
• inflated self-esteem or grandiosity
• decreased need for sleep
• flight of ideas or the subjective experience that thoughts are racing
• easily distracted and attention-deficit similar to attention deficit hyperactivity disorder
• increase in psychomotor agitation
• involvement in pleasurable activities that may have a high potential for negative psycho-social or physical consequences (e.g., the person engages in unrestrained buying sprees, sexual indiscretions, reckless driving, or foolish business investments).^[24]