Guest Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 Tread carefully. You're making accusations based on hearsay from a child. You may or may not being getting the full story and context. Yup. That's why I'd want to clarify first. What is the teacher actually saying, in context? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueenCat Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 To be honest I am surprised there isn't a policy like this in place at our school, given the current political climate. I cannot convey how disgusted I am on so many levels. Using fake news in an American Govt class? What's next? Using Breitbart as a valid source? But I tend to be very emotional about these things, and DS is NOT--he's quiet, studious and hardworking, and I just don't want to insert myself inappropriately or at the wrong time. I like the idea of doing this after he has his first semester grades. You should be emotional about this..... fake news is a huge problem and this was definitely in that realm. But you are smart to wait until the right time to deal with this. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted December 1, 2016 Author Share Posted December 1, 2016 Well now that I think about it, is it possible the guy was giving examples of extreme things that are said during campaigns? Even if that is the case, the abortion example is really a sucky one to bring up in school. No, i don't think so. My son has told me all semester how this teacher just likes to bring up Trump and how great he is at random moments, and my son said this just came out of another 'why trump is great and why liberals suck' sort of posturing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 (edited) Yes, I'd call. I work for a private Christian school and a state university. Both schools said that we should not bring personal politics into the classroom if at all possible. At the private school, we were told not to tell students who we were voting for and to handle it all only in terms of discussing the rhetoric of both sides. That seemed overly conservative to me at first, but it did indeed keep things even. I actually had a student ask me yesterday who I voted for when we were talking about a related issue, and frankly it was a nice out to say that the school policy is that I not reveal that. how utterly professional. and refreshing. Professor Peter Singer at Princeton (my alma mater, so I know it was real and not a fake news thing) has been an outspoken advocate for the post-birth abortion (though I'm not sure that was the name he used) idea. And I think he has gotten wide-spread media attention for it which may be increasingly catching on. I consider myself a liberal, but to be against this idea did, at the time I first ran into it (1990's?), make others villify me as a conservative. It was, in fact, being looked at as the reasonable view for a liberal to take. Even though as I saw it, it seemed more like a Hitler getting rid of people he considered defective type of fascist thing to consider doing. Or shades of The Giver where people are euthanized when they are too old, too ill, don't follow the rules right. As I understand it there are issues related to universal health care and how much to do (pay) for an infant who might be in a vegetative state, for example. I think the idea that all liberals support that (or have even heard of the idea) is obviously wrong and your son is right to be upset. But at the same time, I think you should know that IME this is not something that his teacher has made up out of thin air. You might want to have your son look up what is going on with Peter Singer, and also what, if anything, is going on with the post-birth (or other names may be used) abortion idea for the Netherlands and perhaps for states like Oregon, which have right to die legislation in place. And also how it relates to ACA/universal health insurance ideas. i remember that. the guy is nuts. seems like he was pushing for euthanasia for infants up to six months? twelve months? didn't his mother develop alzheimers? there was a recent case in belgium of a CHILD being euthanized. The IB program is supposed to be particularly about critical thinking--HOW to think about things using facts, primary sources, and then coming up with intelligent, logical arguments. What this teacher is doing is so NOT in line with that thinking: using fake news sources, propaganda, the works--it would be funny if it weren't so wrong and offensive. it's american government - not an IB class. required for graduation - not an IB dip. eta: grade/other retaliation is more common than acknowledged. keep very good records. but you should be able to complain to the principal and describe what is happening without your child's identity being made known to the teacher. Edited December 1, 2016 by gardenmom5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted December 1, 2016 Author Share Posted December 1, 2016 Yup. That's why I'd want to clarify first. What is the teacher actually saying, in context? Well, I wasn't there and can only go by what my son told me, but based on this teacher's past proclamations, it didn't seem out of the ordinary or shocking to me. My son is not dramatic and he's very level-headed, and he mentioned this to me in a rather off-hand way. _I_ was the one who was pissed off and upset. HE is not happy about it, but he's not as dramatic as me LOL. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted December 1, 2016 Author Share Posted December 1, 2016 It's called Pre-IB American Government--so only IB students in the class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 Tread carefully. You're making accusations based on hearsay from a child. You may or may not being getting the full story and context. And read THIS post carefully when you consider whether or not it's worth the bother to send your kid with a recording device. For EXACTLY that reason, I'd have him record the teacher every class until the end of term. Hopefully, he'll get some good recordings of the sort of things he's already observed. Teachers and administrators will be QUICK to assume your child, no matter how reputable and excellent, is lying. Protect your kid at all costs. (Another reminder to get the kid OUT before you go to war.) 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 I might start by emailing the teacher and asking him about it. Ask for context. Either he'll back down and say he was misunderstood, in which case you ask for the teacher to clarify to the whole class since there was a misunderstanding. Or he may dig himself deeper. And you'll have it in writing. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 I might start by emailing the teacher and asking him about it. Ask for context. Either he'll back down and say he was misunderstood, in which case you ask for the teacher to clarify to the whole class since there was a misunderstanding. Or he may dig himself deeper. And you'll have it in writing. Nice play! I want you on my team in the Zombie Apocalypse. :) 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 (edited) No, i don't think so. My son has told me all semester how this teacher just likes to bring up Trump and how great he is at random moments, and my son said this just came out of another 'why trump is great and why liberals suck' sort of posturing.Ah, but a teacher expressing positive views about a president or other public figure isn't against the code of conduct for most schools. Like I said we dealt with the opposite of this - Bush stole the election, Huffpo/Vox/ThinkProgress as reasonably unbiased news sources , XYZ highly opinionated ra ra cheering about Clinton in the midst of the impeachment issues, etc. Yes we found it annoying and offensive as a family, but the line generally is only crossed if the teacher begins personally insulting the students or violating specific areas of the code of conduct for the school relating to race, sexuality, etc. The teacher might get talked to by the principal or district, but what they will actually censure and can defend legally tends to be quite different. This has been an issue in high school and college for years, though usually with the shoe on the other foot. It's not as easy to 'fix' as one might think. Ideally a civics class would be just about facilitating debate and deep thinking in the students but I've yet to have a government class that wasn't ridiculously, partisanly political. And I've had a few classes completely unrelated to the subject where the teacher loved to grandstand about their personal political axes too. It sucks. Edited December 1, 2016 by Arctic Mama Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 Nice play! I want you on my team in the Zombie Apocalypse. :) LOL, I spent a lot of time in customer service handling complaints at the vet clinic I worked at. Which, as you know, can be CRAZY. learning to politely deal with crazy while watching my back became a life skill. SaveSave 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 it's american government - not an IB class. required for graduation - not an IB dip. All the teachers at the IB high school near me have training in the IB process. So do the the teachers in the middle school that feeds into it. So even if it's not an IB course, it should be taught similar to the IB diploma courses with the required writing and thinking components. What the teacher us discussing is actually not relevant to the curriculum of American Government. If he wanted to help students develop discourse and thinking skills he'd have a project where the kids debated topics and supported their ideas with facts. He's modeling the opposite. He doesn't belong in a program that feeds into an IB diploma or any school really. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 And read THIS post carefully when you consider whether or not it's worth the bother to send your kid with a recording device. For EXACTLY that reason, I'd have him record the teacher every class until the end of term. Hopefully, he'll get some good recordings of the sort of things he's already observed. Teachers and administrators will be QUICK to assume your child, no matter how reputable and excellent, is lying. Protect your kid at all costs. (Another reminder to get the kid OUT before you go to war.) A recording is a good idea. Does the school have any policies about recording a teacher or other students without permission though? The teacher is probably fair game but recording other students could be a problem if they haven't given permission. It might be different with a student doing it but I know teachers have to tread carefully with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 LOL, I spent a lot of time in customer service handling complaints at the vet clinic I worked at. Which, as you know, can be CRAZY. learning to politely deal with crazy while watching my back became a life skill. SaveSave I really think you'd like Morgantown, WV. We don't have Zika virus. We barely even have mosquitos. We have mountains. :) We have a very family friendly practice. We can always use someone with your madskillz. If you weren't so busy with all those cute kids and homeschooling . . . ;) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 Well, I wasn't there and can only go by what my son told me, but based on this teacher's past proclamations, it didn't seem out of the ordinary or shocking to me. My son is not dramatic and he's very level-headed, and he mentioned this to me in a rather off-hand way. _I_ was the one who was pissed off and upset. HE is not happy about it, but he's not as dramatic as me LOL. Yeah, some kids are not easily ruffled - you know him best. A recording device could be the solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawthorne44 Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 Well now that I think about it, is it possible the guy was giving examples of extreme things that are said during campaigns? Even if that is the case, the abortion example is really a sucky one to bring up in school. I had a teacher pass out photos in class. This was a speech class in 9th grade. If you are wondering, where the photos what I think they might be? The answer is yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 Actually, on thinking about it more, I think I consider myself a moderate, but since I am now in a rural area I feel liberal compared to what is around me. Part of my becoming what I really think is probably moderate related to teachers at more than one school being very outspoken in class about their political ideas. At one school in a very conservative area, I had a history teacher who was a John Birch society member and was quite vocal about her views. Then when I moved to NYC and the school that OP and I have in common, teachers were much more "liberal" and outspoken about that. I think that feeling overwhelmed and squelched by a teacher giving personal political views is bad, and that a more balanced approach would be far better. OTOH, I am not sure that my getting to hear some views that were personal and deeply felt from various of my teachers in various directions was a bad thing. Our country is tending to be very polarized, and that could be dangerous. Taking some time to hear other views could be helpful. And it may be that if your ds usually hears "liberal" views, hearing his teacher's views and perhaps coming to understand some of where the teacher is coming from might not be totally bad. Still, given how upset you are, I think you should probably talk to principal or whomever is TPTB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 There's a big difference between encouraging\modeling civil political discussion in class (and where better to learn about civility!), and declaring that one side is wrong. It's just not OK. Think about the favor you are doing for students whose parents do not know about the classroom environment, or believe they are not is a position to speak up because their kid is still in the class. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 I really think you'd like Morgantown, WV. We don't have Zika virus. We barely even have mosquitos. We have mountains. :) We have a very family friendly practice. We can always use someone with your madskillz. If you weren't so busy with all those cute kids and homeschooling . . . ;) LOL! Yeah, i don't see me going back, but I do miss it. I still dream about the practice I used to work at before I moved here. I was there about 15 years, so it was home. (although dreaming about work when you haven't worked in 6 years is LAME!) SaveSave 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 Just wondering, would you be equally upset and ready to call TPTB if Hillary had won and he was saying things about how wonderful she is and how it would be great that Bill would be able to help advise her? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 All the teachers at the IB high school near me have training in the IB process. So do the the teachers in the middle school that feeds into it. So even if it's not an IB course, it should be taught similar to the IB diploma courses with the required writing and thinking components. What the teacher us discussing is actually not relevant to the curriculum of American Government. If he wanted to help students develop discourse and thinking skills he'd have a project where the kids debated topics and supported their ideas with facts. He's modeling the opposite. He doesn't belong in a program that feeds into an IB diploma or any school really. both of my girls are IB dips. not all their teachers had IB training - especially ones that weren't teaching a class that fed into IB. that type of teacher (liberal or conservative is irrelevant) doesn't belong teaching children period. I'm glad you are removing your son after this term. If it's such a hostile place that covert recording is the only way a student's version of events will be taken seriously, that is not a good place for him to be. I find it shocking that you can't feel free to simply make an appointment with the principal to discuss your concerns without worrying about payback. I am no fan of schools, but in my public school dealings I've never had to worry about a student being penalised for raising an issue with a teacher. those hostile places can also exists in liberal cities (I live in one) for conservatives. both sides do it, and both are unprofessional when doing it. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted December 1, 2016 Share Posted December 1, 2016 I think it warrants a discussion with the principal. I would not let it slide because there are a lot of kids who are exposed to this guy. I might however wait until semester grades are finalized. Exactly this. Completely horrid behavior from the teacher. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 (edited) I'm not talking about the classroom, I'm talking about the school. A parent should be able to go in and see the prinicipal and raise this issue,w ithout worrying her child will be punished for it. Whether the issue is a liberal out the line or a conservative out of line is irrelevant to my point, I agree, the parent/student should be able to discuss concerns and be safe from a retaliatory teacher. My dd had a retaliatory teacher in HS (nothing to do with politics. he was like a bratty tween queen-bee girl. tbh - he needed a good counselor. 7th 'career' at age 35.). she learned to ignore him, keep her head down and mouth shut. even when he came up to her and asked her how he could be a better teacher. he'd retaliated against one of her friends - she wasn't naive. Edited December 2, 2016 by gardenmom5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alicia64 Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 I think I'd want something on the guy's formal record if that's at all possible. He may be leaving your school, but where is he going? That school should know that they have a loon on their hands. Alley 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Weird. I would say something. It wouldn't bother me necessarily that he talked about his views, but that what he said was so totally stupid and factually wrong. Post-birth abortion is a thing, as in an idea - it's a particular way of talking about infanticide, essentially. But it's hardly the case that all liberals believe in it, most don't know what it means and if they did they would think it was bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reefgazer Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 (edited) I can't stand instructors who push their politics (of any stripe) and political agenda in the classroom, but if it wasn't going to affect my kid, It wouldn't be worth my time. I've got too many fish to fry to spend time on a teacher who probably, despite my best efforts, would not be disciplined because of entrenchment. Okay, so my 9th grader who has been homeschooled all his life is attending the IB program at our local high school. He has had issues since the beginning: the teachers arent' great, the content is dull, and he is not being challenged (I've posted about this before, and received from great advice from everyone here). So he decided well before the elections that he wants to return to homeschooling at the end of the semester, and although i was initially a bit resistant (felt he should give it more time) but he demonstrated to me that he is willing to accept certain conditions (want him to find a p/t job, want him to find a volunteer position, I wanted HIM to do the research for classes and present it to me..) So anyway, long story short, he's coming home and he's VERY happy about it. My issue currently: his American Government teacher has been going on and on about how great Trump is, and how wonderful his children are, and what great 'advisors" they'll make to Trump. Okay, I am not in favor of teacher's pushing their own political agenda on kids, whatever side they are on--I would say that in a government class, it would be fruitful to perhaps have a civilized discussion about both parties and what they have to offer, but to stand in front of the class proclaiming the "rightness" of your position without really allowing for dialogue is just not okay by me. But DS and I decided we'd let it slide; after all, he was leaving. He's not an outspoken kid, so he didn't feel comfortable bringing up his discomfort in class, fwiw. Yesterday, he comes home and asked me "what is post-birth abortion?" I had never heard that phrase, so I looked it up and told him what I learned. He tells me that this AG teacher told him that "liberals all support post-birth abortion". WTH? First of all, there's no such thing, second of all, when it was brought up in an academic journal years ago, BOTH sides of the aisle excoriated the article and its implication--so basically, the teacher is spreading lies and propaganda. I am so upset--this program is supposed to encourage "critical thinking" but the teacher himself is discussing something like this and proclaiming it to be true? I am tempted to call the school. But then I think--he's leaving, why rock the boat? Thoughts? Oh, and this is the same teacher who has shown four movies in class--Legally Blonde I am Sam, and two other pop culture movies tangentially related to the law or government. What a waste of time. So...without going off on a tangent about "post birth abortions", would you say this behavior warrants a phone call? Or should i just let it slide? Edited December 2, 2016 by reefgazer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carol in Cal. Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 I would wait until after the class was graded, and then go talk to the teacher in private, and then if I was not satisfied, to the principal. This is nutsy behavior, but it's also hearsay (not that I disbelieve your son, but if the teacher claims never to have said this stuff, it will be hard to prove.) Completely unacceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueenCat Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 (edited) Just wondering, would you be equally upset and ready to call TPTB if Hillary had won and he was saying things about how wonderful she is and how it would be great that Bill would be able to help advise her? I would.......... and I voted for her. This teacher went much further than that though. It's inappropriate on a major scale. Edited December 2, 2016 by QueenCat 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Just wondering, would you be equally upset and ready to call TPTB if Hillary had won and he was saying things about how wonderful she is and how it would be great that Bill would be able to help advise her? If Hillary had won and the dude were saying extremely offensive and blatant lies about what "conservatives believe", quoting things that may have been said by a few public figures who are wingnuts but are really things that 99.99% of conservatives don't believe, yes, I would still be upset and wanting to complain. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Tread carefully. You're making accusations based on hearsay from a child. You may or may not being getting the full story and context. I don't see H storming into the principle's office and letting them have it. And what's the deal. He's expected to act mature and shoulder all kinds of responsibilities, but when he questions something that does not seem right he's just a kid who can't be trusted? I wish I had gone home and told my parents some of the crap I heard from teachers. He sounds like a smart kid. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Not before his grade is in. Who cares about the grade? He's leaving the school. The grades won't mean anything. His homeschool transcript is all he needs. If it were me, I'd pull him out now, not finish the semester and call the whole public school experiment a wash. I'd just count his homeschool and that's that. And, yeah... I'd have a lot of somethings to say about the teacher. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arcadia Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 This is nutsy behavior, but it's also hearsay (not that I disbelieve your son, but if the teacher claims never to have said this stuff, it will be hard to prove.). Like the recent local case we had. Nobody knows what was really said and what tone it was said in. "Navarro said it all started about three weeks before the Nov. 8 election when he gave a historical lesson on Hitler’s rise to power in Germany from 1930 to 1933 and compared it to Donald Trump’s platform. “Adolf Hitler said he’d make Germany great again. Donald Trump said he’s going to make America great again,†Navarro said. “Hitler focused on the Jews as the great peril of Germany, and Trump focused on the Muslims and talk about a registry and keeping Muslims out of the country. ... “The parent said in the email that I said Donald Trump is Hitler and that Trump hates Jews, Mexicans and African-Americans,†Navarro said. “And I countered I would never say that because it was sloppy historical thinking.†Navarro said there were also other accusations that he had never heard anything about. “I was also accused of feeding propaganda to my students and real bias, and then I was quickly informed I was on leave. I was to leave the campus immediately,†Navarro said.†https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2016/11/22/a-40-year-teaching-career-ending-after-trumphitler-comparison-in-mountain-view/ There was a public charter education specialist at the library on Tuesday who was discussing with a mom about Trump while looking at work samples. The two kids of the mom were seated at the same table facing their mom and the ES. They talk loud enough for my kids and I to hear two tables away. Not political but a friend's daughter told her mom that her teacher encourage them to tell their parents to vote to legalize recreational marijuana because teacher say marijuana is good. Some of her teachers also strongly encouraged them to join the protests. My friend decided to give her child a cellphone for school just in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxbridgeacademy Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 (edited) I would, with my DS in tow and a full participant. They need to see how to stand up for themselves and others. I could see waiting until grades are in though. ;) Of course I probably wouldn't have to do much if it had been DD. She would have organized and staged a 100 kid sit in before lunch (with posters). Or like Audrey says up thread, pull him now and report your own grades. Why let this farce of an education go on any longer. Edited December 2, 2016 by foxbridgeacademy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Who cares about the grade? He's leaving the school. The grades won't mean anything. His homeschool transcript is all he needs. If it were me, I'd pull him out now, not finish the semester and call the whole public school experiment a wash. I'd just count his homeschool and that's that. And, yeah... I'd have a lot of somethings to say about the teacher. Well, it is December and the kid did all the work for the entire semester. I would want to include those grades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparklyUnicorn Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 If you want H I'll send my posse after him or harass him on Facebook. I owe you one anyway.... ;) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Seeing as "post-birth abortion" is an actual (made up) term that some anti-abortion advocates use and her ds had never heard it before, I can't imagine it would be something he'd make up. I think deeply partisan issues absolutely have a place in a good American government class. I think it's okay for a teacher to occasionally state their own viewpoint. I think it's a travesty for something imaginary like "post-birth abortion" to be given a voice by a teacher. I would absolutely raise a huge ruckus about that. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LucyStoner Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 (edited) Seeing as "post-birth abortion" is an actual (made up) term that some anti-abortion advocates use and her ds had never heard it before, I can't imagine it would be something he'd make up. I think deeply partisan issues absolutely have a place in a good American government class. I think it's okay for a teacher to occasionally state their own viewpoint. I think it's a travesty for something imaginary like "post-birth abortion" to be given a voice by a teacher. I would absolutely raise a huge ruckus about that. This. I don't have much of an issue with him discussing pro-Trump sentiment. And I am hardly what one could call a Trump fan or a conservative. It sounds like perhaps he does it overly much but I don't think it's necessary to not say who he supports. Saying all liberals support "post birth abortion"? I would be all up in that dude's business. The school district would have already heard from me. It's one thing to say what/who you are for. It's another thing to say that all people of a certain persuasion support murdering babies. Unprofessional and the antithesis of critical thinking. A handful of academic remarks does not mean that all or even many liberal people support infantcide. What he said is akin to someone claiming that all conservatives are pro executing gay people. Not true, way off the mark, unprofessional, ignorant and bordering on harassment of students who consider themselves to hold a different viewpoint. Wholly unacceptable. Edited December 2, 2016 by LucyStoner 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luuknam Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 (edited) I would talk to the principal, and bring the 9th grader along. If the principal doesn't want to go by the words of just one 9th grader, s/he can summon other kids from the same class and ask them what was or wasn't said. ETA: I wouldn't wait until after the semester is over. Other kids' memories are going to be more faulty about what was or wasn't said, the more time elapses. Edited December 2, 2016 by luuknam 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Seeing as "post-birth abortion" is an actual (made up) term that some anti-abortion advocates use and her ds had never heard it before, I can't imagine it would be something he'd make up. I think deeply partisan issues absolutely have a place in a good American government class. I think it's okay for a teacher to occasionally state their own viewpoint. I think it's a travesty for something imaginary like "post-birth abortion" to be given a voice by a teacher. I would absolutely raise a huge ruckus about that. I was under the impression that the term was coined by an ethics philosopher, who was in favour of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 I was under the impression that the term was coined by an ethics philosopher, who was in favour of it. Not really in favor per se, but more engaging in an academic argument about pure, abstract ethics/logic. Which is, of course, why logicians don't and shouldn't craft laws. If you're interested, here's a link to an open letter in response to the outcry after their first paper. http://blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics/2012/03/02/an-open-letter-from-giubilini-and-minerva/ 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Not really in favor per se, but more engaging in an academic argument about pure, abstract ethics/logic. Which is, of course, why logicians don't and shouldn't craft laws. If you're interested, here's a link to an open letter in response to the outcry after their first paper. http://blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics/2012/03/02/an-open-letter-from-giubilini-and-minerva/ Yes, this is who I was thinking of. I thinks it's an interesting, useful, and important discussion, myself. We tend to speak as if infanticide is so beyond the pale, it could never happen, but it's been done and approved of in many societies, so why would we think our thought processes couldn't take us to the same place? And if the logic of personhood, or abortion, shares important aspects, I think that is important to explore and think about. Are we comfortable with where that might take us? If not, were is it that we are divided, or do we need to change our thinking. I don't really like it when people dismiss this kind of discussion as obviously ridiculous pro-life propaganda. Some pro-life people think the arguments that come out of that discussion have some validity and use in a discourse about abortion. It seems to me like drawing from a philosopher to explore logical connections is a lot better than drawing on people with a political agenda. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 I'm not talking about the classroom, I'm talking about the school. A parent should be able to go in and see the prinicipal and raise this issue,w ithout worrying her child will be punished for it. Whether the issue is a liberal out the line or a conservative out of line is irrelevant to my point, I agree. But I raised the question of whether Halcyon would feel the same sense of distress if the teacher had been a Hilary Clinton fan and talking about that in similar ways as he was talking as a Trump fan because I was sort of doubtful that would be the case. My sense is that her son would come home mentioning what was being said about Trump because it doesn't fit with what his home milieu believes. I'm not even sure he'd have come home and told her if a teacher had been talking pro-Clinton because it might not stand out to him as seeming out of place. Apparently he was not as upset about the gov teacher as Halcyon is, though. I don't know what the atmosphere of the place is, or what the teacher is like or how vindictive he may be. It is possible though that the son himself could raise his hand in class to argue back with the teacher along the lines of that to say, "All ______'s believe in ______ " isn't true. And that it is not helpful for national political dialogue and discussion to be so divisive or to so label and categorize others. Multiple logic issues exist with this approach including turning the other side into a 'straw-man.' It could actually be a good learning situation. The labels are probably not helpful either, since it often does seem that if someone considers him/herself to be a liberal/conservative that then that person is expected to adhere to a whole platform of positions, some of which the person may not agree with at all. In actuality, I know for myself and also for most of the people I am close with, that it is far more complicated. There is a tendency toward some side that could be labeled "liberal" or "conservative," but actually as I get to know more and more about any particular issue, I make up my mind on that issue according to how I think/feel about the specific issue. And if I now think that maybe I am a "moderate' more than either "liberal" or "conservative" that too would probably give the wrong impression of being in the middle on all issues, while actually what I have in mind is that depending on the issue my view could be any number of things. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Yes, this is who I was thinking of. I thinks it's an interesting, useful, and important discussion, myself. We tend to speak as if infanticide is so beyond the pale, it could never happen, but it's been done and approved of in many societies, so why would we think our thought processes couldn't take us to the same place? And if the logic of personhood, or abortion, shares important aspects, I think that is important to explore and think about. Are we comfortable with where that might take us? If not, were is it that we are divided, or do we need to change our thinking. I don't really like it when people dismiss this kind of discussion as obviously ridiculous pro-life propaganda. Some pro-life people think the arguments that come out of that discussion have some validity and use in a discourse about abortion. It seems to me like drawing from a philosopher to explore logical connections is a lot better than drawing on people with a political agenda. Talking about it as a philosophical discussion - as in, if you accept that life begins at conception then is there a difference between an abortion at any point, even after birth - okay, fine. Sure. That's a legitimate theoretical argument against abortion. But talking about it as a procedure that is happening, that "all liberals support" IS ridiculous pro-life propaganda that is not rooted in any reality. This is not something that is a real procedure of any sort. It is not something that any politicians, doctors, policymakers or really anyone is advocating. And that is the way that this term - taken from a theoretical thought exercise - is being floated around on the internet, which is simply untrue. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Well, it is December and the kid did all the work for the entire semester. I would want to include those grades. Understood. But, could you not include that work in your homeschool portfolio with your own evalution, as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Understood. But, could you not include that work in your homeschool portfolio with your own evalution, as well? College applications typically require transcripts from every high school a student has attended. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluegoat Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Talking about it as a philosophical discussion - as in, if you accept that life begins at conception then is there a difference between an abortion at any point, even after birth - okay, fine. Sure. That's a legitimate theoretical argument against abortion. But talking about it as a procedure that is happening, that "all liberals support" IS ridiculous pro-life propaganda that is not rooted in any reality. This is not something that is a real procedure of any sort. It is not something that any politicians, doctors, policymakers or really anyone is advocating. And that is the way that this term - taken from a theoretical thought exercise - is being floated around on the internet, which is simply untrue. Yes, which is why I had a problem with the teacher. I mean, it should be obvious on the face of it that very few people in the west are for infanticide. But I've also heard people dismiss the ideas that are found in that academic conversation pretty much on the same grounds - it isn't real, or most people don't believe in that, therefore it is just the worst kind of straw man argument, and an example of propaganda. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldberry Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Been thinking about this. I am in favor of introducing even controversial topics for discussion, and using the topic to illustrate proper tools of argument and supporting facts. That type of thing should be carefully moderated by the teacher, to avoid bullying and suppression, but also to identify and prevent poor logic and unsupported claims. If the teacher is using poor logic and making unsupported extreme claims, then what purpose does the discussion serve except to use the teacher's platform of authority to coerce students? I also think that in younger grades (I would say 9-10 or 11) the teacher should refrain from taking a position to avoid that very thing. Students in 11-12th grade or above should be better equipped to handle that. I hold this same position regardless of which way the discussion leans. This teacher was way out of line. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Not really in favor per se, but more engaging in an academic argument about pure, abstract ethics/logic. Which is, of course, why logicians don't and shouldn't craft laws. If you're interested, here's a link to an open letter in response to the outcry after their first paper. http://blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics/2012/03/02/an-open-letter-from-giubilini-and-minerva/ I don't know if the ethics philosopher you two are thinking of is Peter Singer, the one I mentioned. I do not know if he coined the term after birth abortion. I don't recall him using it, and don't want to try to find that out right now. But as I recall, he was truly in favor of something that might be called after birth abortion. It wasn't just an exercise in theoretical and esoteric academic debate. What also might not be realized is that not only do protocols exist in the Netherlands already, but it is my understanding that other places, including the United States and Canada (and I think Australia where Singer was from) do already (and have for some time) actually as a matter of practice allow withholding of hydration and food from infants who have certain (generally very extreme) problems. One argument in favor of euthanasia of infants was that to the extent that the infants might not actually be vegetative, death by dehydration is not pleasant (as known by people who are conscious and severely dehydrated and can voice the experience of being severely dehydrated) and that a more active euthanasia might be give less pain and distress to the infant than dehydrating him or her to death--which was already being done, not a theoretical possibility. Another argument in favor of after birth abortion (by whatever name) was that it could allow the parents to let the baby be born and then have the actual status and prognosis for the baby to be evaluated far better than on the basis of tests that could be done prior to birth at a time when abortion would be legal. So maybe an ultrasound would seem to show _____, but it would not be clear how bad the ____ would be, instead of deciding prior to some stage of pregnancy whether to abort, the baby could be born and then a decision could be made. I should probably repeat that I was strongly, strongly against the practice, but that when I listened to the rational arguments on Singer's side, it did not so much seem that one was dealing with some "nut" (as someone here called him) as it might seem with just a couple of sentences about it gleaned from some social media interpretation. Nonetheless, even to the extent that the blog you link is saying that they had written something on this subject that was supposed to be purely theoretical, esoterically academic and for a small group of bioethicists to debate--not meant to become a law, unfortunately, very academic arguments that are not supposed to turn into law can be a problem when they are gotten hold of and do turn into law, IMO. I think the main issue for this thread though, is whether or not Halcyon should complain to the principal or someone else in her son's school--and if so, when, in relation to grades being finalized and her son being gone or still there. But I think that understanding the underlying issue better than from a hasty computer search for the term her son brought home might be wise. Even thinking it through and questioning whether she herself feels that an apparently vegetative infant's life should be maintained as long as possible? Or for that matter if Halcyon's son were to think that through, what would be his own views and ideas about it? Are they against the practice that is apparently already in existence of allowing withdrawing food and water for a vegetative infant? Could that be termed post birth abortion? I guess I think that "all liberals believe in after birth abortion" is clearly wrong. But if withdrawing food and water from a vegetative infant were to be called after birth abortion, then I am not so sure that it is only a rare "nut" case liberal who does support that. ?????? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farrar Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 Yes, which is why I had a problem with the teacher. I mean, it should be obvious on the face of it that very few people in the west are for infanticide. But I've also heard people dismiss the ideas that are found in that academic conversation pretty much on the same grounds - it isn't real, or most people don't believe in that, therefore it is just the worst kind of straw man argument, and an example of propaganda. This is why we need better teachers in general who can navigate this stuff (and people who believe in reality and facts and don't rely on fake news sites, but sadly, I digress...). It's the same with the fact that he's a Trump supporter. I mean, like I said, teachers should be able to state their views and even argue their position, but they have to be able to walk a line where they're *also* encouraging other views and making space for students to speak those views and not penalizing them for it. And even, if a class is all in agreement, be willing to play devil's advocate for the position they don't agree with. It sounds like this teacher probably isn't doing a good job of that. And... honestly, I'm far from surprised. I think America doesn't do a good job of that. Obviously, a lot of the people in this thread disagreed with the premise that he should be able to bring anything partisan or political into a GOVERNMENT class in the first place. Which is interesting. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maize Posted December 2, 2016 Share Posted December 2, 2016 (edited) I would be concerned about any government teacher who makes sweeping black/white/absolute assertions about anything. Government and politics are complex, someone who teaches the subject needs to be able to appreciate and help students understand that fact. We've got a whole nation of folks who mostly seem to be incapable of actually listening with an open mind to the thoughts, opinions, and reasoning of someone who disagrees with them--teachers shouldn't be further encouraging such narrow mindedness (which exists in equal measure all along the political spectrum). Edited December 2, 2016 by maize 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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