s/o sleeping through alarms and teen bedwetting?

[rose]

The alarms thread got me wondering if any of you with heavy sleepers have also had troubles with bedwetting up into the teen years. My poor girl is going 14 and is still regularly wetting - probably 50% of the time. We've tried bedwetting alarms but she sleeps through them or else just shuts them off. Dh doesn't want to use meds (he's an MD and he says they're too dangerous for what they accomplish). We've ultrasounded her for abnormalities. We tried enemas and laxatives because constipation, even non-symptomatic constipation, is associated with enuresis. The closest pediatric urologist is 16 hours away but we'll probably try to go that route at some point. Please tell me she's not too old to see this resolve on it's own. Any other ideas?

[bettyandbob]

What about addressing the sleep. Have you done a sleep study could she have apnea. One reason why my ds has trouble is apnea. He cannot get consistent quality sleep because of apnea.

 

That's the direction I'd go in your situation

[athomeontheprairie]

I was that kid. I was older however, when my parents choose the meds. I HATED it-but it did help. And even once off of it, I was able to wake up. Which was helpful as I was headed off to college!

[ktgrok]

I really think you need to see the urologist for this. 

[amo_mea_filiis.]

My 11 year old has reacted to so many medications it's insane. Oral DDAVP at .2mg caused no problems at all. He was on it a year or so.

 

Does she have sleep apnea? I'd check that first.

 

Is she neurotypical? A typical, 14 year old girl sounds very late.

 

Which alarms have you tried?

[Reefgazer]

I wet the bed until I was an older kid, but not 14 (I think I was almost 11 when I stopped wetting the bed).  OMG, I was such a heavy sleeper and nothing woke me up!  I had nothing wrong; the ped just said "heavy sleeper, she'll outgrow it", and I did. 

The alarms thread got me wondering if any of you with heavy sleepers have also had troubles with bedwetting up into the teen years. My poor girl is going 14 and is still regularly wetting - probably 50% of the time. We've tried bedwetting alarms but she sleeps through them or else just shuts them off. Dh doesn't want to use meds (he's an MD and he says they're too dangerous for what they accomplish). We've ultrasounded her for abnormalities. We tried enemas and laxatives because constipation, even non-symptomatic constipation, is associated with enuresis. The closest pediatric urologist is 16 hours away but we'll probably try to go that route at some point. Please tell me she's not too old to see this resolve on it's own. Any other ideas?

 

[EmseB]

I do not know about sleep apnea or other problems that would probably warrant a doctor's attention.

 

However, with the alarms, I think even with older kids, they are supposed to be used with a parent's involvement.  Yes, the kid will sleep through the impossibly loud alarm.  An adult is supposed to wake them up, get them to the bathroom, get them to change if necessary and reset the alarm.  An adult is supposed to make them realize what's going on when the alarm goes off and get them up.  Even with all this, the kid may have merely a foggy recollection the next day of actually getting up.

 

I realize this sounds ridiculous and probably embarrassing for a 14 year old girl.  And it's much like having a newborn in the house again as far as sleep deprivation goes.  But, that's how they are supposed to be used.  We set up an air mattress in my kids' room and one of us adults (it sounds like at her age it would have to be you) was "on duty" until the alarm worked.  And it took a few weeks, but it eventually worked.  I just realized one night that we didn't have to get up with him.  And then he relapsed for a couple nights, and then he was done.  We still left the alarm on for another few weeks to be sure.

[Guest]

What about addressing the sleep. Have you done a sleep study could she have apnea. One reason why my ds has trouble is apnea. He cannot get consistent quality sleep because of apnea.

 

That's the direction I'd go in your situation

 

I would also vote for the sleep study. I have a friend that had bed wetting problems well into her 20's. After the sleep study she ended up being diagnosed with some type of narcolepsy. It wasn't the sterotypical, fall asleep while in the middle of something narcolepsy- rather something that severely impacted the sleep cycle. She had to change her lifestyle a bit and went on medication. It was life changing for her she said after the diagnosis.  

[gardenmom5]

we've a friend whose dd was on the meds.  the part of the brain that was supposed to wake her up - hadn't sufficiently matured.

 

I understand your dh's reluctance.  their youngest got into the rx, and ate them.  fortunatley, another sibling saw it and told the mom before baby became symptomatic.  baby spent several days in children's hospital ICU.  I don't think there were  any long term effects.

[ktgrok]

What I don't understand is, everyone talks about them sleeping too deeply. But really, is the goal for them to wake up and use the bathroom one or more times a night? That doesn't seem normal either for someone that young. Shouldn't the goal be to not need to urinate during the night? I'd think that was what should be looked into. Having them wake up to pee several times a night seems less than good. 

[TechWife]

Another vote for a visit with the pediatric urologist and a sleep study. Her regular pediatrician can probably order a sleep study. I would go ahead and do both of these at the same time - no need to wait on either one of them. 

[Catalytic]

Waking up to pee at night is one of the big indicators of sleep disorders/apnea, I would insist on a sleep study.

[rose]

Interesting input everyone. She is neurotypical. She is adopted from my sister so we only know half of her genetics. Unfortunately, since we live in hicksville northern British Columbia, the nearest location for a sleep study or pediatric urologist is almost certainly 16 hours away too. We can do it but it will be a significant sacrifice. I wonder though if a regular urologist might be willing to see her at this point. There is probably one 6 hours away.

 

We've used the Malem Ultimate alarm. I think that I might try having her use it again and I'll stay near enough to wake her up.  We also used a load rooster alarm to wake her throughout the night coupled with an app that asks her a math question before she can turn off the alarm. The math questions was there to make sure she was awake enough to not just turn it off and go back to sleep. This had some success but I can't tell you the number of times she was near tears trying to figure out 0*5+4 or something similar.

[*LC]

I have one that was always a deep sleeper with the same consequences as your DD. Life got in the way, and nothing was done about it & child was older than your DD. Then for unrelated reasons, this teen taken off gluten & dairy and the overnight problem stopped completely. Dairy has been added back and still no accidents. It has been four years.

 

I know it sounds odd, but it worked here. It is something you could try while waiting for an appointment.

 

P.S. For unrelated reasons, this teen was found to have a kidney cyst by GI. However, it was said nothing needed to be done and that it could not cause the nighttime issue.

[OneStepAtATime]

Sleeping so soundly you cannot wake up for bodily needs is something to look into but I agree, I think she should be able to make it through the night without going to the restroom.  If she can't, I would be looking at the reason.  I am wondering when she drinks her last bit of liquid at night?  Could she be drinking too much right before bedtime?  How often does she need to use the restroom during the day?  How long between the time she drinks something and the time she needs to void?  How much liquid can she hold before she has to urinate?

 

FWIW, I was a bed wetter until I was maybe 10 but I had a shortened urethra so urine kept fluxing back up and causing issues.  I ended up with several mild to severe infections.  My grandmother was a bed wetter but her bladder would periodically spasm.  She had that issue all of her life.

[Guest]

What I don't understand is, everyone talks about them sleeping too deeply. But really, is the goal for them to wake up and use the bathroom one or more times a night? That doesn't seem normal either for someone that young. Shouldn't the goal be to not need to urinate during the night? I'd think that was what should be looked into. Having them wake up to pee several times a night seems less than good. 

 

Yes, you're right in many cases. When I was in pharma my company ran a study one one of the drugs for this and there is an anti-diuretic hormone that most people secrete at night that keeps you from needing to pee during sleep. Some kids' (or adults) bodies just don't make it in the right amounts at the typical time. The drugs to treat the hormone disorder were highly successful in the studies we conducted. It's been years though so I don't remember the adverse events. (aka side effects). 

 

But for some people it's not hormone related as far as the anti-diuretic side, but rather a sleep disorder as others are saying on this thread. So it's not a single faceted issue. It's been well over then years though since I worked on this trial, so who knows what all has come out since. I do feel bad though for all of the kids over the preceding decades who were blamed as if it was something they could control. I had no idea it even existed as a problem until we landed the drug trial. It's so much more common than you would think. 

[mom2samlibby]

Found an old thread on here about bedwetting and magnesium.  http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/173657-a-huge-huge-public-thank-you-to-whomever-recommended-magnesium-for-enuresis/

 

 

[mom2samlibby]

dp

Edited September 10, 2016 by mom2samlibby

[mom2samlibby]

dp

 

Edited September 10, 2016 by mom2samlibby

[Rosie_0801]

The oldest my chiro ever cured of bedwetting was 16. That only works, of course, if it is being caused by vertebrae in the lower back squishing the wrong nerves.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Yes, you're right in many cases. When I was in pharma my company ran a study one one of the drugs for this and there is an anti-diuretic hormone that most people secrete at night that keeps you from needing to pee during sleep. Some kids' (or adults) bodies just don't make it in the right amounts at the typical time. The drugs to treat the hormone disorder were highly successful in the studies we conducted. It's been years though so I don't remember the adverse events. (aka side effects).

 

But for some people it's not hormone related as far as the anti-diuretic side, but rather a sleep disorder as others are saying on this thread. So it's not a single faceted issue. It's been well over then years though since I worked on this trial, so who knows what all has come out since. I do feel bad though for all of the kids over the preceding decades who were blamed as if it was something they could control. I had no idea it even existed as a problem until we landed the drug trial. It's so much more common than you would think.

I did minimal reading, but I think the sleep disorder link like in sleep apnea, is that the kid's not actually sleeping (slow/stop breathing, brain rouses, cycle starts over) so the hormone doesn't do its thing or get released or whatever. Lol. Very technical, I know.

 

I have no clue if the DDAVP flipped a switch for my son or what. He was wetting most nights, went to the urologist at 10 (his request) for anatomy checks, and started DDAVP and an alarm. He was on it for over a year at the lowest dose. Wetting went down to a few times a month. We stopped meds and alarm (with the alarm never being consistent because of battery issues) at some point, and the few times a month pattern continued. All of a sudden in the last several months it's been very sporadic and he just hit a 6 week stretch dry. He's not getting up at night to pee either.

 

My son thinks he sees a link between any fluids that are not just water and wetting. Data doesn't support that, but he no longer begs for soda and juice, so I'm not arguing. He does seem to wet when he hasn't been drinking enough, but again no consistent patterns.

[musicianmom]

Sent you a PM

[*Jessica*]

Food sensitivities can cause bedwetting.  I would try eliminating dairy first.

[grantmeawish]

I outgrew it after age 14. We never tried meds but I did learn to do laundry at a young age. I know it's frustrating

[wapiti]

What worked for my kid over the years, each in isolation:  magnesium citrate (150 mg capsule; oddly, seemed not connected to the constipation issue),  d-mannose (for reasons unknown; possible subclinical level of infection I guess), and antibiotics for pandas/strep (this angle would be irrelevant for a kid who is neurotypical).

[Scarlett]

The alarms thread got me wondering if any of you with heavy sleepers have also had troubles with bedwetting up into the teen years. My poor girl is going 14 and is still regularly wetting - probably 50% of the time. We've tried bedwetting alarms but she sleeps through them or else just shuts them off. Dh doesn't want to use meds (he's an MD and he says they're too dangerous for what they accomplish). We've ultrasounded her for abnormalities. We tried enemas and laxatives because constipation, even non-symptomatic constipation, is associated with enuresis. The closest pediatric urologist is 16 hours away but we'll probably try to go that route at some point. Please tell me she's not too old to see this resolve on it's own. Any other ideas?

I have a lot of experience with this. My dss15 1/2 still wets. Every night without meds....and even a few times a month with meds. I would be very interested in what meds your Dh is talking about and what dangers there are.

 

Dss15 finally got to see a Pediatric urologist when he was 13. The meds have been life changing for him.

[Scarlett]

What I don't understand is, everyone talks about them sleeping too deeply. But really, is the goal for them to wake up and use the bathroom one or more times a night? That doesn't seem normal either for someone that young. Shouldn't the goal be to not need to urinate during the night? I'd think that was what should be looked into. Having them wake up to pee several times a night seems less than good.

Exactly. I was always very frustrated by people blaming the bedwetting in my dss15 on sleeping too deeply. 15 year olds should not need to wake up in the middle of the night to go pee. In fact Dh and I tried that....waking him up every two hours to pee.....midnight, 2, 4......by 6:30 he was soaked. And exhausted.

 

My ds16 can sleep 12 hours without waking up to pee.

 

The meds worked for ds15. To us the risk is worth it bcause it is a horrible thing for a 15 year old man/boy to be wet every single morning. M

[Scarlett]

The oldest my chiro ever cured of bedwetting was 16. That only works, of course, if it is being caused by vertebrae in the lower back squishing the wrong nerves.

This is very interesting Rosie....I took dss15 to a chiro yesterday. He has complained about back pain off and on for a year. Another thing his mom would not deal with...so he lives with us now and I was able to take him. He has a fractured vertebrae. L4. It is grade one.....and the doctor said it cannot be fixed....not going to get worse, but he will have to manage it life long. Adjustments won't help it....he did need a slight adjustment for some upper back issue that the doc said was typical because of the body compensating for the lower pain.

 

He did do the ultrasound treatment on the lower back and wants to do it again in a week...but he basically did not think dss15 would need to come back after that. Anyway, when I take him back next week I am going to ask about the connection to bedwetting.

 

So knowing that I would definitely advise the OP to take her dd to a chiro.

[MercyA]

One more random suggestion--she doesn't eat a lot of orange, artificially colored foods, does she? I know a family whose children wet their beds when they consumed orange foods. AZO, an OTC UTI drug used to numb the urinary tract, is actually just a type of orangish yellow dye. 

Edited September 10, 2016 by MercyA

[Catalytic]

Interesting input everyone. She is neurotypical. She is adopted from my sister so we only know half of her genetics. Unfortunately, since we live in hicksville northern British Columbia, the nearest location for a sleep study or pediatric urologist is almost certainly 16 hours away too. We can do it but it will be a significant sacrifice. I wonder though if a regular urologist might be willing to see her at this point. There is probably one 6 hours away.

 

We've used the Malem Ultimate alarm. I think that I might try having her use it again and I'll stay near enough to wake her up.  We also used a load rooster alarm to wake her throughout the night coupled with an app that asks her a math question before she can turn off the alarm. The math questions was there to make sure she was awake enough to not just turn it off and go back to sleep. This had some success but I can't tell you the number of times she was near tears trying to figure out 0*5+4 or something similar.

 

I am not sure about Canada, but in the US, you can order a home sleep study, it's around $300 (that was a few years ago).  The company mails you the stuff and tells you how to put it on, you mail it back, and they evaluate the data.  If I were rural, I would go that route first, and then if there was something questionable, I would make the effort to do a study in a sleep center.

 

I have sleep apnea.  When I first was diagnosed and got a CPAP machine, I joined a forum about it.  Needing to pee during the night was talked about a LOT there...and truly, the first night I slept with my CPAP, and every night I have used it since, I do not have to get up to pee, even if I drink a full glass of tea right before laying down (which I usually do).  

 

I really urge you to look into at least a home sleep study for her, I know this is affecting her quality of life.  My stepsister had nighttime enuresis until she was about 12 or so, my stepfather got up twice to take her to the bathroom every single night.  She had polyps?, though, so there was a medical reason.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

One more random suggestion--she doesn't eat a lot of orange, artificially colored foods, does she? I know a family whose children wet their beds when they consumed orange foods. AZO, an OTC UTI drug used to numb the urinary tract, is actually just a type of orange dye.

There isn't orange dye in foods. Only reds, blues, yellows, and greens.

[rose]

Thank you everyone for your suggestions. More to think about is always a good thing. We've done some food sensitivity trial (dairy and gluten) but didn't see a difference. We've tried magnesium. She does have some minor day time dribbling issues and quite occasionally she fully wets herself during the day. She'll wet 3 times a night sometimes irregardless of fluid consumption. The ultrasound that we had done suggested that her bladder was on the smallish size but that everything else seemed normal. They scanned her before and after voiding to see if she was incompletely voiding and to measure the volume. I'll have to look more into the at home sleep study stuff but given the day time issues I suspect it's anatomical or hormonal.

 

I have a lot of experience with this. My dss15 1/2 still wets. Every night without meds....and even a few times a month with meds. I would be very interested in what meds your Dh is talking about and what dangers there are.

Dss15 finally got to see a Pediatric urologist when he was 13. The meds have been life changing for him.

 

I'll get back to you after I have a chance to talk to my dh. If I remember correctly though he said that the drug that he had a problem with had very occasional incidences of childrens' bladders exploding! DD is pretty good sport about it all. She wears cloth diapers to minimize mess and for comfort. She's just growing concerned that she will always be like this.
 

[ktgrok]

ok,with the daytime issue too, it's time to see a urologist. 16 hours or not. Fly, drive, whatever. Without question, this needs to be done. sorry. 

[Reefgazer]

Exactly. The brain has to mature enough to produce enough antidiuretic hormone to be able to sleep through the night without having to pee.

 

What I don't understand is, everyone talks about them sleeping too deeply. But really, is the goal for them to wake up and use the bathroom one or more times a night? That doesn't seem normal either for someone that young. Shouldn't the goal be to not need to urinate during the night? I'd think that was what should be looked into. Having them wake up to pee several times a night seems less than good.

[Ottakee]

Meda for spastic bladder might be in order...Site plan or the like.

 

At 14 with night wetting and occ. Day wetting I think a urologist is in order. Can you do a consult by phone/Skype with one and have any tests done closer to home?

[MercyA]

There isn't orange dye in foods. Only reds, blues, yellows, and greens.

 

Okay, the yellow dye that makes food look orange. Cheetos, for example, contain yellow 6. The dye I mentioned in AZO medications is technically yellow as well, but turns pee orange.

 

Thanks for the clarification! 

Edited September 10, 2016 by MercyA

[Reefgazer]

I am very much a hands-off, let a kid develop as they will kind of mom, particulrly surrounding bedwetting, but I agree with this as well. The daytime peeing needs to be addressed.

 

ok,with the daytime issue too, it's time to see a urologist. 16 hours or not. Fly, drive, whatever. Without question, this needs to be done. sorry.

[AK_Mom4]

With the daytime issue added in, I would wonder about bladder spasms. There is bladder training that can be done at home that was recommended by youngest DD's urologist - it was easy enough for an 8yo to do (with supervision to make sure she did it). DD was in a low dose drug for several years that helped with the spasms.

 

I agree with the others. Get her in to see a urologist. it doesn't have to be a ped one to get help for these types of issues. DDs night time wetting was worsened by food allergies - identifying and eliminating those helped get that under control.

[wapiti]

Another vote for day wetting = see urologist, IMO

 

(throwing out possible cause #257 for odd daytime voiding dysfunction, my ds had a tethered spinal cord.  Urologist missed it...  There are too many possibilities for this kind of thing, thus I vote for urologist.)

Edited September 10, 2016 by wapiti

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Another vote for day wetting = see urologist, IMO

 

(throwing out possible cause #257 for odd daytime voiding dysfunction, my ds had a tethered spinal cord. Urologist missed it... There are too many possibilities for this kind of thing, thus I vote for urologist.)

Yeah, daytime/awake wetting is different from "just" sleep wetting.

[gardenmom5]

Another vote for day wetting = see urologist, IMO

 

(throwing out possible cause #257 for odd daytime voiding dysfunction, my ds had a tethered spinal cord.  Urologist missed it...  There are too many possibilities for this kind of thing, thus I vote for urologist.)

 

one odd thing that can trigger incontinence in me (and dd started wetting) was a sinus infection.  something about it caused the muscles throughout the body to relax.  treating the sinus infection completely cleared up the issues.

 

last year, I had a prolonged sinus infection my (former) dr wouldn't treat. (she didn't believe me, and congestion is fairly common.).   I started some very strong antibiotics for a kidney infection - and my sinuses started to drain like mad. I actually ended up on two more courses of antibiotics just for the sinuses.

[MistyMountain]

That sounds like something that needs to be looked into closer with it happening 3 times a night regardless of liquid intake and daytime issues too. I do not think it will go away in its own given that. I read a study that said that said something like 15 percent of kids who wet the bed will stop in the next year every year and a small percentage will still have problems (maybe 2 percent) at 18. They defined it as it happening in a monthly time frame I think (maybe it was a week). So if you wet them bed twice a month it is still considered bed wetting.

Edited September 10, 2016 by MistyMountain

[Rachel]

Interesting input everyone. She is neurotypical. She is adopted from my sister so we only know half of her genetics. Unfortunately, since we live in hicksville northern British Columbia, the nearest location for a sleep study or pediatric urologist is almost certainly 16 hours away too. We can do it but it will be a significant sacrifice. I wonder though if a regular urologist might be willing to see her at this point. There is probably one 6 hours away.

 

We've used the Malem Ultimate alarm. I think that I might try having her use it again and I'll stay near enough to wake her up. We also used a load rooster alarm to wake her throughout the night coupled with an app that asks her a math question before she can turn off the alarm. The math questions was there to make sure she was awake enough to not just turn it off and go back to sleep. This had some success but I can't tell you the number of times she was near tears trying to figure out 0*5+4 or something similar.

When she tries the alarm are you waking up with her or making her do it all on her own?

 

Our pediatrician recommended the Sleepy Time Alarm. It is piercing. The directions say for the parent to make sure the child wakes. Disengages the alarm, uses the bathroom (while fully awake), and reconnects the alarm before going back to bed. We had my son sleep on the floor of our room for this process. It took about two weeks before he could reliably wake up and use the bathroom without disengaging the alarm and going back to sleep right away. At first he would wake 2-3 times a night. Now he is sleeping through the night and not needing to use the bathroom at all until morning. I was feeling skeptical about the alarm for the first 10 days or so, but then we turned a corner. There is quite a bit of information available on that website on how to use the alarm.

 

That said my son is 8. My brother did successfully use an alarm around age 13. I have never seen a kid sleep as soundly as my brother.

[Rachel]

I just saw there are some daytime issues as well. I think you need to get her to a urologist even if it's not convenient. Can you possibly Skype and have labs done locally?

[mom2samlibby]

The daytime issue concerns me a lot.  I'd see a urologist.  It could be reflux of the bladder.