Christians, help me think this divorce issue through...

[marbel]

It sounds like he's probably being an "@sshole" to FORCE her to file for divorce - because HE doesn't want to do it, for whatever reasons.  

 

And why hasn't her church had someone go and try to talk to him?  Or confront him, at the very least.  Because if they HAD, the above bolded wouldn't be a problem.  IMHO, her church leadership needs to step up and do their part, which would be a huge support for her during this whole mess.

 

 

Yeah, if they have not tried to get his side of the story, they are failing here.  But it's also possible that they have asked him to meet, and he won't do it.   A church I belonged to went through a long church discipline effort with a guy once who never showed up for any of the requested meetings. The church ended up excommunicating him and helping his wife get a divorce (and continue to help her and their kids as the guy is out of the picture apparently).  

[J-rap]

Yes.

[Guest]

...and helping his wife get a divorce (and continue to help her and their kids as the guy is out of the picture apparently).  

 

This cued me to remember something that I had sort of just let become a normal part of my life. 

 

Something similar happened in our parish.  Our parish treats women and children in this situation NOT as "divorcees and broken homes" but as widows and orphans.  We care for them as though their husbands/fathers had died, helping them until they find their feet and without judgment against the abandoning husband.  

 

This also addresses the remarriage issue, in a way.   The woman is free.  

 

Annnnd for the record, it works the other way, as well, when the wife abandons the husband and family.  Not as often, but more often than you might think.

[luuknam]

He doesn't have a girlfriend/mistress. He has an almost zero-level sex drive and is significantly older than her (he's in his mid-60's), but really, has been unavailable to her sexually for a long time.IIRC, he went to a doctor about this at her insistence, and had normal testosterone. She has wondered if he is gay, but honestly it seems like he's asexual or something.

 

I didn't want to bring this up upthread, but since you've mentioned it, the one person I know who used his hand out of 'laziness' for 5 years was at the time in extreme denial (to themselves) about being gay. I do agree with others that she should get STD testing done - it doesn't take a full-blown affair, it only takes once, and with him not living with her, there's no way she can 100% guarantee he didn't slip up once.

 

ETA: even if he were living with her, there's no way she could 100% guarantee that either.

Edited August 10, 2016 by luuknam

[GinaPagnato]

This cued me to remember something that I had sort of just let become a normal part of my life. 

 

Something similar happened in our parish.  Our parish treats women and children in this situation NOT as "divorcees and broken homes" but as widows and orphans.  We care for them as though their husbands/fathers had died, helping them until they find their feet and without judgment against the abandoning husband.  

 

This also addresses the remarriage issue, in a way.   The woman is free.  

 

Annnnd for the record, it works the other way, as well, when the wife abandons the husband and family.  Not as often, but more often than you might think.

 

This is beautiful. Thanks for sharing.

[GinaPagnato]

Yeah, if they have not tried to get his side of the story, they are failing here.  But it's also possible that they have asked him to meet, and he won't do it.   A church I belonged to went through a long church discipline effort with a guy once who never showed up for any of the requested meetings. The church ended up excommunicating him and helping his wife get a divorce (and continue to help her and their kids as the guy is out of the picture apparently).  

 

The church leadership reached out to them as a couple and to him individually. But he just avoided it until he finally left the church.

I don't know if they could have done more.

[Guest]

His unwillingness to reconcile or respond to her pleas for the marriage is abandonment. She has given it time and prayer. We can still pray they reconcile at some point and he has a change of heart, God can totally do it! But for the time being she has essentially been widowed by his actions and is freed from the covenant he broke. Whether she remarries or not is between her and God, if he has that for her. But she is not *sinning* if she does it, because she is a wife to a non-existent husband.

[gardenmom5]

He doesn't have a girlfriend/mistress. He has an almost zero-level sex drive and is significantly older than her (he's in his mid-60's), but really, has been unavailable to her sexually for a long time.IIRC, he went to a doctor about this at her insistence, and had normal testosterone. there's "normal" and there's healthy.  those are two entirely different things.

 

. He was married and divorced twice before meeting my friend. But there isn't someone waiting in the wings.

 

 

 

the husband has left the church so they don't get to hear his side.  nothing's stopping him from telling his side.  he doesn't give a rip about what they think.

 

 

She asked me a month ago if she thought she was doing the right thing. I had previously urged her to take the process very slowly and just stay separated.  does she have confidence in her own choices? (if she does not - THAT is a reason for her to not start dating until she does).   if you had not ever told her to stay separated -where would she be now?  are you willing to go to her and apologize for giving her bad advice?

 

 

she asked me recently if I thought she was doing the right thing, I told her yes, that there didn't seem to be another option UNLESS she could remain separated and not mentally collapse.      honestly - YOU need to STOP giving her bad advice.  she understands this is a bad situation, has asked you twice for affirmation she is making the right call to divorce, and you have told her on two occasions to stay married but separated.

 

she spoke her her husband a few days ago and again begged him to come back to her and said she would stop the whole process if he would (within her boundaries, of course.) Again, he told her she'd be crazy to think he would want anything to do with her. Disgusting brute. Can you tell how much I dislike him? So, it seems to me like she's given him ample chances and he's not interested. BUT, she initiated separation and divorce, he didn't. So that's where the question comes in.  years ago, dh tried to counsel a woman who wanted to remarry her ex.  he kept asking her . . . and you need to ask yourself and your friend needs to ask herself - can she trust him?  he's a liar, an abuser, a manipulator and complete jerk.  how much she love's him or wants to be married to him becomes moot.  YOU need to tell her you were wrong to ever encourage her to stay, and she needs to put herself first.

 

I think the answers many of you have provided have been very helpful for me. I want to help her and her kids and I want to know in my spirit that she's doing what God is leading her to do.  God does not expect her to sit there and be abused, especially not by her husband.  her dd is right, she needs to buck up and dump him and that is okay!  (actually, that's good)   by dumping him, she will send the message to her dds and her dss about human dignity and worth.  not only do you not abuse - you don't tolerate being abused.  (because she is teaching her children with her example they have to allow their husbands to abuse them if that's the kind of jerk they end up marrying.)

 

 

eta: there was a recent article where a 14yo girl shot her abusive father. her mother talked about what a hero her dd was.  that mother belongs in jail because she could have taken her children and LEFT - but she didn't.

Edited August 10, 2016 by gardenmom5

[bolt.]

Biblically speaking, the only prohibitions against divorce are against men divorcing women -- this is because divorce in those days left a woman destitute and victimized in significant ways. In those days men did not suffer those particular impacts of divorce because they were not dependant, not considered property, and we're capable of independant functioning in that society. Because it was such a damaging thing for a woman to be divorced by a husband, it was forbidden for men to do that -- even if the marriage was terrible -- but only permitted for reasons of sexual misconduct.

 

For these reasons, it's not at all clear whether this limit really should be applied even to 'all men of all times' or if it should be applied 'in principle'. (If so, the 'principle' might be: do not divorce *and* victimize your wife, but if you are both in agreement, perhaps it's ok divorce in a good-willed way that 'looks after her'.) However, it is difficult to make a case that women are also implied to be forbidden from divorcing men just because the command to men is there.

 

Women are instructed not to (lightly) abandon living with their husbands (for any reason, including sexual misconduct) and -- in the unlikely event that to do so was possible -- to live respectably with her father rather than independently. This also was culturally motivated and very specific; it might not be an 'all women for all time' command either.

 

(To get even more cultural, women's prohibitions seem to indicate specifically that they not to engage in a form of 'living married' while periodically 'abandoning' the marriage as a ploy to remain fiscally a member of her father's household. (This was considered an ungodly form of not-quite-married, plus it indicated divided household loyalties which probably tore families apart at the time.))

 

However, if it was NT times, this man's actions would need to be understood by his intent. It was normal for men to be unfaithful, and even absent fit extended periods of time. Formal divorce could not be initiated by a woman unless she had extreme social status or the backing of a man (possibly her father).

 

Women remained legally attached to their arranged marriages no matter what the man did, unless he *stated* that he wanted to put her aside. This inability to do anything about it is behind the instruction to let 'unbelieving' (or 'disloyal' or 'unfaithful' -- same word) spouses 'depart' if they so chose, but otherwise attempt to live peacably with whatever was happening. Letting them 'depart' was not the same as divorcing. It's more like separating.

 

So, as you see, women in the NT times had almost no ability to divorce anyone, and are given instructions fit for that legal system. They are not given institutions on when a divorce might be 'biblical' and when not -- because that wasn't the situation that needle solving at the time. They are given instructions on how to live as property with very few rights: because that's what was really happening. Biblically a woman is never told she *can* divorce her husband: ever. (Not for sexual misconduct, not for abandonment, not for abuse, assault, criminal activity or being MIA for 25 years.) I'm not suggesting this means that women are not allowed to divorce in those cases... I'm just saying that the information *isn't there* because it wasn't relevant. No one wrote in an epistle, "Hey, prophetically, just do you know, someday women will have inconceivable human rights, protected by law in lands that are ruled by laws not dictators! Hey, wow! So, just so you know, here are the rules those future women must live by. I know, a bit if a waste of papyrus, but I'll get back to issues of the present day in a minute, OK?"

 

Inferring that your fiend should follow the men's rules of those days is a hermeneutical shot in the dark: a proof text that is pretty shaky once you set your mind to asking exactly what was forbidden and why.

 

For these reasons, I think that it is more sensible to approach your friend's situation from the wider principles of the Bible. Her husband broke vows, broke trust, broke laws and violated covenant. He then began living in a way that (in our culture) indicates that he is done with marriage. I don't think it matters that such things were normal conduct for married men in the first century Roman Empire. It matters that she was duped and victimized and in *our* century she is not property and she does have a way out. Her way out does not turn her husband or anyone else into a victim of crushing poverty, so I don't th know anything in the Bibke should stand in her way.

Edited August 10, 2016 by bolt.

[GinaPagnato]

Gardenmom5, I couldn't quote your multi-quote, but I wanted to respond to you.

 

No, I'm not giving her bad advice. This is my best friend of 25 years. We talk through EVERYTHING together and we highly value one another's opinions. We seek the Lord together, we encourage and advise each other. It is no small thing to formally end a marriage of 20+ years, She doesn't take it lightly, and as her best friend, I take very seriously the impact of my words.

 

When I advised her to take it slowly it was because there were many factors at play, which I obviously can't go into here. It was the right thing to advise and I wouldn't do it differently even if I could.

She had to hear from God about it, and once she did, I was supportive of that, too. But for her, "dumping" her husband is painfully tragic, and by extensions, I feel it deeply.

 

[zoobie]

If the professional help she is getting is advocating for her to call her abuser and beg him to return and not giving her any better advice than she'll know when hope is lost, that is not theraputically appropriate nor indicative of an actual professional. The therapist being a member of their church and having a relationship with both of them is...unusual. Instead of leaning on you for advice outside of your realm of expertise (theological and remediating abuse), she really, really needs actual professional help. So do her kids more than likely.

[gardenmom5]

Gardenmom5, I couldn't quote your multi-quote, but I wanted to respond to you.

 

No, I'm not giving her bad advice. This is my best friend of 25 years. We talk through EVERYTHING together and we highly value one another's opinions. We seek the Lord together, we encourage and advise each other. It is no small thing to formally end a marriage of 20+ years, She doesn't take it lightly, and as her best friend, I take very seriously the impact of my words.

 

When I advised her to take it slowly it was because there were many factors at play, which I obviously can't go into here. It was the right thing to advise and I wouldn't do it differently even if I could.

She had to hear from God about it, and once she did, I was supportive of that, too. But for her, "dumping" her husband is painfully tragic, and by extensions, I feel it deeply.

 

on at least two occasions - you told her to just stay separated.  iow: stay married to a man who lies.  who is physically abusive (oh, but it was "only" twice!), mentally abusive, emotionally abusive,  by your own description - manipulative.  her own dd has objected enough to refuse to stay in teh home while she is still with him.

lies so much she lost her house, so it's not like staying married to him will provide the security of a roof over her head.  (even if he's not there.)

[GinaPagnato]

on at least two occasions - you told her to just stay separated.  iow: stay married to a man who lies.  who is physically abusive (oh, but it was "only" twice!), mentally abusive, emotionally abusive,  by your own description - manipulative.  her own dd has objected enough to refuse to stay in teh home while she is still with him.

lies so much she lost her house, so it's not like staying married to him will provide the security of a roof over her head.  (even if he's not there.)

 

You know what, never mind. You don't understand the context or dynamics in our friendship. It's not possible for me to explain it to you, obviously. She asked me and we talked through the pros and cons of the options. We prayed through them together, as we have through this whole process.

And I never said "only" twice to the physical abuse. Jeez!

Edited August 10, 2016 by forgetmenot

[gardenmom5]

what are the qualifications of this marriage therapist?  does he have an actual accredited certification from a licensing agency?

 

my church has marriage and family therapists.  they have actual degrees from accredited institutions, and state licenses.

 

. Her marriage therapist is a member there, and he has been incredibly supportive. He basically told her, "You'll know when it's time to give up hope." IOW, he didn't say to leave or to stay, just that he knew as she sought the Lord, she would know when it was time.

 

If the professional help she is getting is advocating for her to call her abuser and beg him to return and not giving her any better advice than she'll know when hope is lost, that is not theraputically appropriate nor indicative of an actual professional. The therapist being a member of their church and having a relationship with both of them is...unusual. Instead of leaning on you for advice outside of your realm of expertise (theological and remediating abuse), she really, really needs actual professional help. So do her kids more than likely.

Edited August 10, 2016 by gardenmom5

[GinaPagnato]

His unwillingness to reconcile or respond to her pleas for the marriage is abandonment. She has given it time and prayer. We can still pray they reconcile at some point and he has a change of heart, God can totally do it! But for the time being she has essentially been widowed by his actions and is freed from the covenant he broke. Whether she remarries or not is between her and God, if he has that for her. But she is not *sinning* if she does it, because she is a wife to a non-existent husband.

 

This makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

[gardenmom5]

 , he was physically violent with her twice,

 

 

 

And I never said "only" twice to the physical abuse. Jeez!

 

 

please explain the discrepancy. in your first post you said twice, in you last post you said you never said that.

[GinaPagnato]

No discrepancy.

 

I didn't say "only". I said "twice". This was to make it clear what type of abuse she had undergone. Two instances of physical, as well as emotional and verbal. I thought it was important to detail that he had been physical with her twice because for some people (not me) emotional and verbal abuse are harder to understand and I wanted to make sure that people knew he had escalated to two counts of physical violence.

 

 

[GinaPagnato]

If the professional help she is getting is advocating for her to call her abuser and beg him to return and not giving her any better advice than she'll know when hope is lost, that is not theraputically appropriate nor indicative of an actual professional. The therapist being a member of their church and having a relationship with both of them is...unusual. Instead of leaning on you for advice outside of your realm of expertise (theological and remediating abuse), she really, really needs actual professional help. So do her kids more than likely.

 

Not sure where you're getting this from...her therapist isn't telling her to call her husband.

 

He's been invaluable to her as a therapist and has guided her into much healing. She's a therapist as well, so she knows many professionals and has her pick of counselors. She chose him because of his expertise in this area. He doesn't have a friend relationship with them even though they attend the same church (large congregation, multiple services, etc.) She and her husband initially sought his therapy for marriage counseling. Then her husband dropped out, but she has continued on her own for her own therapy. Her kids are seeing their own therapists.

[G5052]

Not sure where you're getting this from...her therapist isn't telling her to call her husband.

 

He's been invaluable to her as a therapist and has guided her into much healing. She's a therapist as well, so she knows many professionals and has her pick of counselors. She chose him because of his expertise in this area. He doesn't have a friend relationship with them even though they attend the same church (large congregation, multiple services, etc.) She and her husband initially sought his therapy for marriage counseling. Then her husband dropped out, but she has continued on her own for her own therapy. Her kids are seeing their own therapists.

 

I'm glad they're in therapy. An involved therapist can be a huge help in a situation like this.

 

A friend of mine recently went alone to a therapist to discuss her marriage problems (her DH won't go and is threatening to leave) and shared with me afterwards how it went. The therapist had her take notes and gave her specific steps to stand up for herself and set boundaries. The therapist also went over issues to discuss with her children and made sure that the children are seeing someone (now they are). Then the therapist went over realistically what to expect. That was the tough part. The therapist isn't optimistic that my friend's marriage can be saved and told her how to prepare for separation perhaps followed by divorce, but they ended on a positive note. She has a plan, and there's always a possibility that it will turn around.

 

Hard, but that's where someone with the training and experience can help. 

[gardenmom5]

No discrepancy.

 

I didn't say "only". I said "twice". This was to make it clear what type of abuse she had undergone. Two instances of physical, as well as emotional and verbal. I thought it was important to detail that he had been physical with her twice because for some people (not me) emotional and verbal abuse are harder to understand and I wanted to make sure that people knew he had escalated to two counts of physical violence.

 

and I said "twice" for *physical* abuse.  physical abuse is not the same as verbal, or mental, or emotional.  they are separate and distinct.

 

 

eta: verbal, mental and emotional abuse can be extremely subtle -and  it can be extremely destructive.

Edited August 10, 2016 by gardenmom5

[fraidycat]

Gardenmom5, I couldn't quote your multi-quote, but I wanted to respond to you.

 

No, I'm not giving her bad advice. This is my best friend of 25 years. We talk through EVERYTHING together and we highly value one another's opinions. We seek the Lord together, we encourage and advise each other. It is no small thing to formally end a marriage of 20+ years, She doesn't take it lightly, and as her best friend, I take very seriously the impact of my words.

 

When I advised her to take it slowly it was because there were many factors at play, which I obviously can't go into here. It was the right thing to advise and I wouldn't do it differently even if I could.

She had to hear from God about it, and once she did, I was supportive of that, too. But for her, "dumping" her husband is painfully tragic, and by extensions, I feel it deeply.

Advising a person to stay in an abusive marriage is bad advice. Full stop.

 

Advising a person to hang around waiting for an abusive person to come back to an awful marriage, while sitting in limbo, having her own sense of self-worth degraded more as she waits, is downright awful advice.

 

Full on "who needs enemies with friends like that" awful advice.

[Scarlett]

My understanding of scripture is that the marriage bond is only broken by adultery or death. That is not to say anyone has to continue subjecting themselves to an abusive relationship. And sometimes a legal divorce is necessary for a variety of reasons involving assets and liabilities etc. But such a divorce would,not free either party to remarry. My niece is in this exact situation. Divorced but not free to remarry.....not until the marriage bond is broken by adultery or death.

[GinaPagnato]

Advising a person to stay in an abusive marriage is bad advice. Full stop.

 

Advising a person to hang around waiting for an abusive person to come back to an awful marriage, while sitting in limbo, having her own sense of self-worth degraded more as she waits, is downright awful advice.

 

Full on "who needs enemies with friends like that" awful advice.

 

I agree. That would be bad advice if that was what I had told her.

 

I didn't advise her to stay in an abusive marriage. I didn't tell her to wait for her abusive husband to come back to resume an awful marriage.

 

Our conversation was whether or not she was Biblically permitted to initiate divorce proceedings or if she should remain separated for some longer duration of time to see whether he would avail himself of counseling/accountability, and by God's grace, repent. Then there would not be an abusive husband and an awful marriage.

 

I would assume that if you're a Christian who believes the Bible to be the Word of God, you would understand the deep pain of wondering whether it was *you* who were breaking the covenant of marriage by formally divorcing. We've known many couples who were separated under horrible circumstances, but didn't divorce, and eventually got back together. They are trophies of grace and lots of hard work. Another friend dealt with a husband who had been unfaithful 3 times, but she wanted to remain separated rather than initiate divorce. They worked very hard against all odds and against some people who told her to pack up and leave. They are now in a couples ministry helping other people who have struggled likewise in marriage. It's beautiful to see that kind of redemption. It's also beautiful to see their 3 kids growing up in a home with mom and dad who love each other and are more committed than ever.

 

So, imagine if that is something you have witnessed, you have been a party to, and now you're wondering if it's possible that your abusive husband might repent and change so much that your marriage could be saved, as well. Then the question: If I initiate a divorce, am I sinning because I've not given enough time for him to repent? Is my marriage ending due to his abandonment of me and my kids, or is it ending because I'm giving up too soon? Do his actions constitute abandonment when he was content to stay in the marriage and home and be physically present, providing some degree of income? If he's not the one who wanted to divorce, then as a Christian woman married to an unbelieving spouse, should I stay married but separated, or divorce him? That was/is her struggle, and by extension, my question.

 

I'm not re-asking those questions, btw. Just giving you an idea of the series of questions that she and I have batted back and forth.

[lllll]

nm

Edited August 16, 2016 by ~ d9n

[Ausmumof3]

Well, yeah... it's obviously not her. You just made it sound like another woman, which would be adultery. Masturbation, iirc, isn't adultery, biblically or otherwise (though it does break some biblical verse about not wasting seed or something, iirc - not too well versed in that part of the bible).

That verse only refers to one specific person and the reason was because he had a legal obligation to help his sister in law have a child after the death of his brother so that his brother would have an heir. It wasn't a general prohibition. The issue was that he didn't want to continue his brothers family. I know that sounds a little weird in itself but it was a law of Moses thing where inheritance was so important and before Ivf:

[Rosie_0801]

Advising a person to stay in an abusive marriage is bad advice. Full stop.

 

Unfortunately that's not always true.

[Rosie_0801]

What about the fact that she is the one initiating the divorce when she could (theoretically and legally) just remain single for how ever long it takes for her husband to repent and come back? Yes, that could never happen. But, on the other hand, God could really break him and use his wife's patience and grace to win him back. So they could remain legally separated but not divorced. It would suck tremendously, but it's another option, right?

 

She won't get child support or alimony without going through the courts. At the very least, children don't belong in the gutter for the potential of saving Daddy's soul.

 

Anyway, he's bled her dry. There's nothing attractive there so he isn't coming back. Asking him to is begging for further abuse, which he'll certainly oblige her with.

[gardenmom5]

 

She asked me a month ago if she thought she was doing the right thing. I had previously urged her to take the process very slowly and just stay separated.

 

. So when she asked me recently if I thought she was doing the right thing, I told her yes, that there didn't seem to be another option UNLESS she could remain separated and not mentally collapse. This would possibly give him time to repent

 

 

I agree. That would be bad advice if that was what I had told her.

 

I didn't advise her to stay in an abusive marriage. I didn't tell her to wait for her abusive husband to come back to resume an awful marriage.

 

 

 

 

okay, whatever.  denial is a river in egypt. . . . .

[GinaPagnato]

She won't get child support or alimony without going through the courts. At the very least, children don't belong in the gutter for the potential of saving Daddy's soul.

 

Anyway, he's bled her dry. There's nothing attractive there so he isn't coming back. Asking him to is begging for further abuse, which he'll certainly oblige her with.

 

You're right. Even the ability to refinance the house is up in the air until the divorce is finalized. I don't know the reasons for that, but this is what the lawyers and realtors are saying.

 

I told her to promise me that she wouldn't ask him to come back anymore. I feel like she's already made it clear that if he complies with XYZ, she's open to reconciliation, but he has no desire to comply, so what's the point of continuing to ask him? It just messes with her mind and she needs to stop putting herself in that position.

 

[fraidycat]

You're right. Even the ability to refinance the house is up in the air until the divorce is finalized. I don't know the reasons for that, but this is what the lawyers and realtors are saying.

 

I told her to promise me that she wouldn't ask him to come back anymore. I feel like she's already made it clear that if he complies with XYZ, she's open to reconciliation, but he has no desire to comply, so what's the point of continuing to ask him? It just messes with her mind and she needs to stop putting herself in that position.

 

This is why your advice to stay separated and hope for repentance was bad.

 

In your own words.

Edited August 10, 2016 by fraidycat

[GinaPagnato]

okay, whatever.  denial is a river in egypt. . . . .

 

It's weird to me how you're coming to this conclusion given everything else I've shared. It's like you're assuming bad intentions on my part and cherry picking quotes without actually reading everything else I've written.

 

But okay, just move on, please. 

 

I've gotten lots of good advice and confirmation from others who seem to understand what I'm saying.

[GinaPagnato]

This is why your advice to stay separated and hope for repentance was bad.

 

In your own words.

 

Yes, but what I wrote was that I had "previously told her" to take it slowly and remain separated.

 

Telling her to stop asking him to repent just happened a few days ago after she called him.

 

Maybe I needed to give more details on the timeline to clear it up.

[gardenmom5]

Unfortunately that's not always true.

 

I assume you're referring to abusers who take exception to their victim deciding enough is enough and attempting to leave,  and are so violent and so lacking in self-control they kill them.  (which I don't think is a risk based on the descriptions of this case.)

[livetoread]

He was married and divorced twice before this marriage? Was this even a biblical marriage (according to strict Biblical interpretation which it sounds like you and your friend follow) in the first place? IOWs, was he free to remarry for the third time?

[GinaPagnato]

He was married and divorced twice before this marriage? Was this even a biblical marriage (according to strict Biblical interpretation which it sounds like you and your friend follow) in the first place? IOWs, was he free to remarry for the third time?

 

Well, he was married and divorced twice before he was saved (I obviously don't even think he is a Christian), or so he told my friend. So, as a new Christian he met my friend, and they had the blessing of the church they were attending to marry.

[ktgrok]

He was married and divorced twice before this marriage? Was this even a biblical marriage (according to strict Biblical interpretation which it sounds like you and your friend follow) in the first place? IOWs, was he free to remarry for the third time?

 

REALLY good point. If she believes marriage is only disolved by adultery, then unless there was adultery in his past marriages, he was still married to his first wife. And therefore they were never biblically married, and there is no fear of divorce. 

[fraidycat]

Yes, but what I wrote was that I had "previously told her" to take it slowly and remain separated.

 

Telling her to stop asking him to repent just happened a few days ago after she called him.

 

Maybe I needed to give more details on the timeline to clear it up.

I think we've hashed it all out now. Although you do say "and again recently.." ..."unless she could remain separated and not mentally collapse."

 

Believe it or not, I think Gardenmom and I are both in the same page in only wanting what is best for your friend and her children. We may disagree with you on what "the best" is, but personally I want your friend to know that she is 100% valuable, worthwhile, and whole - no matter what her husband or the bible says. She doesn't need an "intact" marriage to be her own imperfect-perfect self.

Edited August 10, 2016 by fraidycat

[PrincessMommy]

If you're not one of the parties in the marriage, why do you need to justify the decision to divorce in any way at all? Biblically or otherwise?

 

Thank you.

[fraidycat]

REALLY good point. If she believes marriage is only disolved by adultery, then unless there was adultery in his past marriages, he was still married to his first wife. And therefore they were never biblically married, and there is no fear of divorce.

I'd imagine there was "adultery" on his part, by getting married a second and third time - so his first and second wives can definitely claim to be out of the marriage.

[MotherGoose]

He was married and divorced twice before this marriage? Was this even a biblical marriage (according to strict Biblical interpretation which it sounds like you and your friend follow) in the first place? IOWs, was he free to remarry for the third time?

Excellent point. At my church (Catholic) he wouldn't have been unless he'd had 2 annulments. OP, I think you are trying to help your friend. She's trying to do the best she can and to not throw out the marriage at the first sign of a disagreement or even abuse. Of course I'm not saying Christians or anyone need to stay around in an abusive marriage--so please don't take what I said out of context. However, this lady has tried everything. She's trying to work through it all. In my opinion, she's done all she can, and she's finished with it.

[Mergath]

Advising a person to stay in an abusive marriage is bad advice. Full stop.

 

Advising a person to hang around waiting for an abusive person to come back to an awful marriage, while sitting in limbo, having her own sense of self-worth degraded more as she waits, is downright awful advice.

 

Full on "who needs enemies with friends like that" awful advice.

 

:iagree:  I wasn't going to post in this thread, not being a Christian and all, but OH MY GOD. As an abuse survivor, I can't even fathom telling someone who has left an abusive marriage and wants a divorce that they should stay married. I don't care what religion you are. I'm sorry, but telling an abuse victim that God wants her to stay married is abusive in itself.

 

I feel sick after reading this thread. Those of you who said it might not be okay for her to get a divorce, or that she could get a divorce but should then never remarry, should be ashamed of yourselves. If anyone needs further proof that legalism is harmful, here you go.

[Rosie_0801]

I assume you're referring to abusers who take exception to their victim deciding enough is enough and attempting to leave,  and are so violent and so lacking in self-control they kill them.  (which I don't think is a risk based on the descriptions of this case.)

 

Nah. My life has more nuance than that.

[livetoread]

I'd imagine there was "adultery" on his part, by getting married a second and third time - so his first and second wives can definitely claim to be out of the marriage.

Well technically, as I understand strict interpretation, whoever sleeps with someone else first is the adulterer and they need to then be celibate. The other party is free to remarry if the first commits adultery. So if this guy's first wife slept with someone else first, he was free to remarry and then if that second wife also slept with someone else first, then he was free to remarry again. Any other scenario though and he would need to be celibate.

 

Of course there are many other interpretations too, but that's the one I'm familiar with.

[cintinative]

 

The reason this is resurfacing for me is because she spoke her her husband a few days ago and again begged him to come back to her and said she would stop the whole process if he would (within her boundaries, of course.) Again, he told her she'd be crazy to think he would want anything to do with her. 

 

 

 

She is displaying all the normal traits of someone who has been abused. She needs to get counseling and support and especially help moving forward without him.  It is hard for any of us in a "normal" relationship to even understand why someone who has experienced what she has would go and beg the man who abused her (physically, emotionally, and verbally) to come back. Yet I have myself seen this in a friend.  It is a mercy that he is not with her, and in time, she will prayerfully allow herself to recognize this.  IF he ever comes back it needs to be with legitimate repentance, expecting *nothing* in return for it.  Even then, she will need a lot of professional help, pastoral help, and friend help evaluating it because she is so deeply broken by the abuse.  

[GinaPagnato]

This sounds SO much like my "marriage". We've lived separately for about 20 months and no progress, though he says he wants things to be better. I really need to make that trip to my lawyer... but it is really hard! Big hugs to your friend because I truly get it, down to the questions of whether it is biblical, as I've been told it is not and that I should never remarry. Which is hard when you are 31 and would love more children within a healthy relationship. I know I need to make those decisions based on my own heart and convictions but it is hard to hear from a friend who hasn't been through this.

 

I'm sorry for your pain, Rubix. I didn't want you to think your post had gone unnoticed.

20 months is a long time to wait with no progress and empty words. I pray you have the strength and clarity to do what you believe is the right thing to do.

 

:grouphug:

[cintinative]

 

 

I would assume that if you're a Christian who believes the Bible to be the Word of God, you would understand the deep pain of wondering whether it was *you* who were breaking the covenant of marriage by formally divorcing. We've known many couples who were separated under horrible circumstances, but didn't divorce, and eventually got back together. They are trophies of grace and lots of hard work. Another friend dealt with a husband who had been unfaithful 3 times, but she wanted to remain separated rather than initiate divorce. They worked very hard against all odds and against some people who told her to pack up and leave. They are now in a couples ministry helping other people who have struggled likewise in marriage. It's beautiful to see that kind of redemption. It's also beautiful to see their 3 kids growing up in a home with mom and dad who love each other and are more committed than ever.

 

From the article I posted. I strongly urge your friend to read it and follow her blog:

 

"God calls us to unconditional love, unconditional forgiveness and unconditional kindness, but he never asks us to have unconditional relationship or unconditional reconciliation with someone, especially when they are abusive and unrepentant toward us."

[gardenmom5]

:iagree:  I wasn't going to post in this thread, not being a Christian and all, but OH MY GOD. As an abuse survivor, I can't even fathom telling someone who has left an abusive marriage and wants a divorce that they should stay married. I don't care what religion you are. I'm sorry, but telling an abuse victim that God wants her to stay married is abusive in itself.

 

I feel sick after reading this thread. Those of you who said it might not be okay for her to get a divorce, or that she could get a divorce but should then never remarry, should be ashamed of yourselves. If anyone needs further proof that legalism is harmful, here you go.

 

I'm glad you said this.  and I'm a Christian.

[MotherGoose]

From the article I posted. I strongly urge your friend to read it and follow her blog:

 

"God calls us to unconditional love, unconditional forgiveness and unconditional kindness, but he never asks us to have unconditional relationship or unconditional reconciliation with someone, especially when they are abusive and unrepentant toward us."

I agree, with this caveat: there are many people out there who will SAY they are repentant, and promise they will change, but they don't. Or they change for a day or a week, but then they resume abuse. I think that at some point the Christian can take their repentance as false, or else he or she is trapped in this false cycle forever. There's no formulaic way to figure out when it's time though.

[momacacia]

I don't need to justify the divorce. I'm helping her and her kids work through these issues, and trying to do it Biblically.

 

Thanks for the responses. They're very helpful. I forgot to add that he would have sex with her *maybe* once a year, despite her practically begging him. So, another mark under the Not Being A Husband category. I think the Bible calls this "defrauding" on another??

 

What about the fact that she is the one initiating the divorce when she could (theoretically and legally) just remain single for how ever long it takes for her husband to repent and come back? Yes, that could never happen. But, on the other hand, God could really break him and use his wife's patience and grace to win him back. So they could remain legally separated but not divorced. It would suck tremendously, but it's another option, right?

Sure, go for this if it makes her feel better. BUT, be absolutely sure that all finances and debt responsibilities are completely separate, otherwise she'll incur his debts, and be sure she gets child support from him.

 

My dad has been cheating on my mom for 30+ years. She's a very committed, conservative Christian (as am I). She's been a "good wife" per Scripture to the best of her ability all this time. Guess what? Yep, he still sees the OW. And my parents still cohabit, she cooks his dinner does his laundry. But, due to the OW and decisions the dad has made, there is no longer a family christmas, family anything. The children refuse to be around him and he rarely sees his grandchildren. It's no contact.

 

Frankly, I could be very surprised and he could be a deathbed convert someday but that's between him and God. That's not my mom's or my responsibility. Your friend won't bring her husband back.and make him a good man by being a fabulous wife. She'll just be a chump. He's heard the truth and chosen to stomp on it. Tell her to get her affairs in order and cover her assets. She's married to a liar. If he hasn't cheated on her (unlikely) it's only because he can't find anyone to sleep with him (again unlikely) or he has no sex drive.

 

And no, the I Cor 7 "defrauding" is not Biblical grounds for divorce in the more conservative circles. Abandonment is, however. He's left the marriage and the domicile. Good luck!

[Katy]

He sounds like my ex.

 

What helped me most was a book called Stop Walking on Eggshells.  https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Walking-Eggshells-Borderline-Personality/dp/1572246901/ref=tmm_pap_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=