Need Hive Wisdom: Brother Asking for Money

[JumpyTheFrog]

My brother sent me a link to a Go Fund Me page because he has to move soon and needs money for the security deposit and rent. He has a job he likes, but it doesn't pay enough for living in a HCOL area.

 

I saw him last month and spent an hour or two trying to help him find a rental as cheap as the one they are currently in. Unfortunately, they just can't afford to stay in that part of the country long-term, unless he becomes willing to have a longer commute or his wife, who has a learning disability, finds a way to cope and get (and keep) a job.

 

My brother already owes my parents several thousand dollars for car repairs and a replacement car. He has made a string of bad decisions over the years such as dropping out of college, moving, quitting jobs, etc. Now he may have finally reached the point that for some people, would help them realize they need to act like an adult even when they don't feel like it. (Or find better ways of compensating for their ADHD.)

 

I feel like I am standing on a land mine. If I give him money, will it just be delaying the inevitable realization that they either need to move or work more and not rely on others to bail them out? On he other hand, my brother is touchy and we don't have a great relationship. He has distanced himself from us over the years, for reasons I am unsure of. I don't really think bailing them out is the best idea, but I don't want to cause a huge rift either.

[mommyoffive]

Do not feel like you should or have to do this. Because you don't

 

Honestly I am a hardass about this stuff.  I have been burned way to many times by friends and family who needed money or help. 

 

I wouldn't lend him money.  He owes your parents already.  I highly doubt you will see it again.

 

 

[shawthorne44]

If you have to give your brother money in order to have a relationship with him, then it isn't a relationship.  

[Guest]

If you have to give your brother money in order to have a relationship with him, then it isn't a relationship.

This.

Edited August 1, 2016 by Moxie

[Seasider]

If you have to give your brother money in order to have a relationship with him, then it isn't a relationship.

Agree. Save your $$$ to bail them out of a future impossible situation (i.e., medical emergency). Giving him money to enable an untenable HCOL situation is only delaying the inevitable, and will provide no return on your investment.

 

Are there any young children involved, or just the couple?

[Seasider]

Adding, it's not about your generosity or lack thereof. It's about enabling an unhealthy situation. That is not in your brother's true best interest.

[Lawana]

I would tend to give a token amount that you can easily afford, similar to what you might give them for Christmas. In fact, you could say it is an early Christmas present. And I would give it to him directly to save the fees imposed by Go Fund Me.

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

 

 

Help or don't, you are under no obligation.

[zoobie]

Do not feel like you should or have to do this. Because you don't

 

Honestly I am a hardass about this stuff.  I have been burned way to many times by friends and family who needed money or help. 

 

I wouldn't lend him money.  He owes your parents already.  I highly doubt you will see it again.

 

I agree, though he isn't asking to borrow money. He sent a Go Fund Me link. He just wants money free and clear. (Go Fund Me? Really? No. There needs to be some kind of tragedy or something for that!)

 

You did help him. You spent time with him and looked for affordable housing. If you normally send birthday or holiday gifts, you can send him cash and label it happy early birthday. I wouldn't go through Go Fund Me because of their fees.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Are there any young children involved, or just the couple?

 

 

Nope, thankfully no kids yet.

 

 

 I wouldn't lend him money.  He owes your parents already.  I highly doubt you will see it again.

Yeah, I learned from Dave Ramsey long ago to only give, not lend money.

[trulycrabby]

I would ignore the link. You are under absolutely no obligation to send him money, and it sounds like you have gone out of your way to help him in past.

 

I am sorry that he might be willing to use emotional blackmail to get money out of you.

 

 

Or, if you feel like you must, then send a token amount and state it's his Christmas and birthday gift.

 

:grouphug:

Edited August 1, 2016 by trulycrabby

[JumpyTheFrog]

Last month, after looking online to help him find a rental and realizing the area is just too expensive, I asked him if he would want to keep living there even if it meant delaying retirement by a decade or buying a house by twenty years. (He is 30.) His answer was to say they'll have a house within twenty years because he thinks he'll inherit both of our parents houses. (He is assuming he will get both of them because DH and I "already have a house".)

 

I think he makes about 28-30k per year. Rent in the area looks to be about $1100-1300 unless they move even farther from his job.

[JumpyTheFrog]

and it sounds like you have gone out of your way to help him in past.

 

My parents have helped, but the only thing I've done, money-wise, was to send $250 in the fall as a combined birthday/anniversary gift for them. They cashed the check, but I never received any acknowledgment of it.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I am sorry that he might be willing to use emotional blackmail to get money out of you.

 

I don't think he would purposefully try anything like that. He just seems to be immature (he was even as a kid).

[magnificent_baby]

I would not give him any money. Things like that way heavily on me; we've loaned money out to family/friends and it's a hassle to ask for it back. 

 

Instead, I would say I'm not in a position to donate/loan, but what can I do to help research resources for you or help you move? 

[Arcadia]

His answer was to say they'll have a house within twenty years because he thinks he'll inherit both of our parents houses.

I won't gift money in this scenario. For a VoTech course that would benefit him, I might pay the school direct even if there is a chance he would dropout.

 

As for inheritance, one of my relatives is hopeless at financial management. So instead of assets and cash, he gets monthly dole outs. I think it is set up like a trust fund. The reason is that he would end up spending his inheritance in no time and then be destitute in retirement. Monthly instalments just make more sense for him. The one who got the family home was the most financially responsible sibling.

[SKL]

Sounds like more than one of my siblings.

 

Personally I am a sucker and would probably give some money if it was manageable for me, but if this was an ongoing thing, I would try to help him figure out a sustainable solution.  Often the "need" for money is really a dream of something the person does not need.  I always love it when my sibs ask me for money to buy something better than what I have/had, because whatever I've lived with isn't good enough for them (or their kids).  :P  It's not my place to judge their choices, but when they want me to finance them, that's a different thing.

 

Another thing.  Could you do the same thing for all of your siblings if they asked?  If not, is it fair to do it for one, putting yourself in a position where you have to say "no" to everyone else?  How much could you realistically give if all of your siblings lined up at your door with their palms out?  And also, is it fair to effectively take money out of your kids' education fund to support a dream you don't believe in?  Where do you draw the line between your kids' future and your siblings' present?  Can your siblings be counted on to help your kids when they are in need?  (I've had this conversation with myself multiple times.)

 

There have been times when I've simply said no, and times when I've given money as a birthday gift.  "No" is hard to say, but beyond that, there really aren't any bad repercussions.  After all, would he give you the money if you sent him a gofundme link?  I'm guessing no.  If it's OK for him to say no, then it's OK for you to say no.

[JumpyTheFrog]

SKL,

 

You bring up some good questions. I don't have any other siblings. My brother is not very reliable, so I don't count on him.

[elegantlion]

If you give, give what you can afford without obligation and don't expect the thank you. It might also depend on why he is moving, moving is expensive when you're living on a tight budget. Does he have to move or just want to? (you don't have to answer me, but it would color my choice to give or not). 

 

I've been on the receiving end of money from family without ex having one clue how to pay it back. In my case I was in a controlling relationship and when I finally convinced ex we needed to live further out of the city because of our budget, he hated it. He never embraced where we live and karma has kind of come back on him. 

 

I say that because yes, some people gave because of me and ds, not because of ex's request, if that makes sense. It was embarrassing to be there AGAIN. Until your brother realizes something in his budget isn't working, he most likely won't change. You are under no obligation to give and if you don't have a good relationship, I wouldn't. 

[luuknam]

If I give him money, will it just be delaying the inevitable realization that they either need to move or work more and not rely on others to bail them out?

 

 

Probably. They don't *need* to live in an HCOL area, and I don't know what learning disability would prevent someone from getting *some* sort of minimum wage job (I know there are some special needs that can make that hard, but that's different than an LD).

[gardenmom5]

M  If I give him money, will it just be delaying the inevitable realization that they either need to move or work more and not rely on others to bail them out?   I don't really think bailing them out is the best idea, but I don't want to cause a huge rift either.

 

you can't have it both ways.  people who think others should pay their bills often get uptight when others don't' pay their bills.  you could be in debt up to your eyeballs with no end in site - would he still expect you to send him money?  or would he be helping you?

 

I grew up with enabling.  the short-term 'help', is really a long-term harm.  if he were doing something to improve their financial condition and just needed help in the meantime, that would be one thing - but that doens't sound like what this is.

 

you tried to help them find something within their budget - they wanted something "better".  instead of sucking it up and cutting their expenses - they're going for something they can't afford and want someone else to subsidize them.

 

I wouldn't donate.

 

eta: and as long as people give - he doesn't HAVE to face reality of his financial circumstances.  so yes, giving will just put off the inevitable.

 

Edited August 1, 2016 by gardenmom5

[JumpyTheFrog]

Does he have to move or just want to?

Yes, he has to move. Their current place is an in-law apartment and the landlord's elderly mother needs to move in. Their lease was month-to-month, and they were given two month's notice to move.

[JumpyTheFrog]

if he were doing something to improve their financial condition and just needed help in the meantime, that would be one thing - but that doens't sound like what this is.

 

He is supposedly going to begin taking college classes again soon. If he gets good grades, his employer will reimburse his tuition. Since he has to pay for tuition up front, my mom sent him money to get registered. He has applied, but it sounds like he may have already spent the money on rent and car repairs.

 

His wife is in some program to finally get her a diagnosis and learn to cope with her disability.

[Katy]

Is there somewhere else for them to go?  Are they going to be homeless?  Why would a family member needing money not contact you directly rather than setting up a go fund me page?

 

We had relatives in this situation.  We wouldn't give money.  We said they could move in with us with the proviso that they would sell their ridiculous cars, take Dave Ramsey's class and take on NO additional debt while they lived with us (Which they would prove by showing us their bills).  Also, they would get a job and pay rent (some for food costs, some directly into a savings account to help them move out that they wouldn't learn about until they moved).  With those conditions, they figured out a different job and housing situation and didn't have to move in with us after all.

[gardenmom5]

I agree, though he isn't asking to borrow money. He sent a Go Fund Me link. He just wants money free and clear. (Go Fund Me? Really? No. There needs to be some kind of tragedy or something for that!)

 

You did help him. You spent time with him and looked for affordable housing. If you normally send birthday or holiday gifts, you can send him cash and label it happy early birthday. I wouldn't go through Go Fund Me because of their fees.

 

no kidding.

I had someone post to a private fb group to which I belong, a gofundme link to fund her wedding . . . honey, if you cant' afford to get married, you can't afford to BE married. sheesh.

(she isn't the brightest bulb in the box. not remotely.)

Edited August 1, 2016 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

He is supposedly going to begin taking college classes again soon. If he gets good grades, his employer will reimburse his tuition. Since he has to pay for tuition up front, my mom sent him money to get registered. He has applied, but it sounds like he may have already spent the money on rent and car repairs.

 

His wife is in some program to finally get her a diagnosis and learn to cope with her disability.

 

I would pass on to your mom, if she really wants to give him money for school, to ONLY pay the school directly. 

 

the "good grades" probably means a 'c' minimum, which is what is required to move on to the next level.

does he have an actual education plan?  a certification program? degree program?  has he worked with a school counselor to figure out what courses he will need each quarter/semester to accomplish his educational goals?  how does he do at doing his homework so he understands the material?  (some teachers require homework as part of the grade, some don't care.)

 

how motivated is he to stick with it?

 

if he's in an accredited school - he should also be able to get financial aid - which is upfront once it starts, it can also include some for books.

[shawthorne44]

In places I've worked, for college classes they pay a different amount depending on the grade.  So an A might get 95% paid, but a C only 40%.   

[BigMamaBird]

Nope.  No way.

 

I give money to sick people and adorable animals.  Healthy adult males can fend for themselves.

[happypamama]

If it were a one time thing, to help him out of a rotten situation, but he'd be okay in the future, I'd feel okay giving him a bit if you can afford to do so. (I'm talking like a major medical situation, or helping him move to a better life or something like that -- a truly temporary thing where you could give him a hand up.). But if he can't afford to live in the HCOL area, he's going to be back in trouble shortly anyway, so I would not want to start something I wasn't prepared to continue. I think giving him help in other ways, like helping him look for housing, is more than enough.

[Plink]

I'd completely ignore the Go-Fund-Me request.

 

If he asks in person I'd refuse as simply as possible.  "I'm sorry but we can't."  No excuses/reasons are necessary.  Even if he pushes, continue to be vague. "But why not" can easily be responded to with "Our answer is just no." 

[Lanny]

OP I read the first post and a few of the replies.  I think I read that you'd sent them $250 and they cashed the check and did not have the courtesy to send you a "thank you" email or call you on the phone to thank you.  From that, you could probably just set your email client to divert any emails from them into the SPAM Folder.

 

I wouldn't give them $, but if and when you might feel the need, which I hope will not happen, instead of giving them money, consider sending them groceries or something from Amazon, not money.

 

I was born and raised in a HCOL area (California) and not only the HCOL, but the horrible congestion and the SMOG were my motivations for leaving California when I was in my early 20's.  I never regretted leaving California and I really appreciated the much lower COL in Texas.

 

If I owned the home where we lived when I was 6 years old, it would probably take all of my income, and much more, just to pay the property taxes on that property in 2016... That property is valued at about $2 million now.  

 

You suggested they move to a lower COL area and that is apparently out of the question for them, so that is THEIR problem, not YOUR problem.

 

There are things I would like to do in California and I have family there, but to live in a place with a HCOL when there are lower cost alternatives, IMO, isn't a good plan and they are doomed to continue the spiral they are in at this time if they stay where they are now.

[gardenmom5]

I'd completely ignore the Go-Fund-Me request.

 

If he asks in person I'd refuse as simply as possible.  "I'm sorry but we can't."  No excuses/reasons are necessary.  Even if he pushes, continue to be vague. "But why not" can easily be responded to with "Our answer is just no." 

 

excuses/reasons should be avoided at all costs.  not only are they unnecessary - they are usually seen as a wedge to manipulating what the person wants. if you have to use an excuse to say no, they'll attack the excuse.

 

so - "I'm sorry, but we can't" . . . why?  "becasue we can't".  rinse, repeat  . . .

 

and lest it become a broken record . . . the answer is "no", please stop asking.

or in regards to one relative . . . what part of "no" don't you understand?

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Somebody should tell him that people shouldn't bank on inheriting any houses, let alone two, especially far into the future, unless they've seen the will! Most people sell in order to pay their final expenses (or retirement home), or to bequeath money instead of real estate. I mean, some people do leave their house to their child, of course, but it's not compulsory.

[BigMamaBird]

Somebody should tell him that people shouldn't bank on inheriting any houses, let alone two, especially far into the future, unless they've seen the will! Most people sell in order to pay their final expenses (or retirement home), or to bequeath money instead of real estate. I mean, some people do leave their house to their child, of course, but it's not compulsory.

 

Add to that, the people I know who have inherited a house have seen it more as a curse than a blessing.  Planning on selling that?  Ha!  Good luck.  Here's a list of $10k worth of repairs that YOU have to pay for before you can put it on the market.  Just going to call in an Estate Sale company to get rid of the stuff?  Good luck, unless you have some fairly specific stuff, they don't want to work with you.  Place doesn't sell in time?  You're responsible for those taxes.  Gotta pay for someone to go an mow the lawn or the county's coming after you.  Raccoons, backed plumbing, broken sump during a storm?  That's all on you, honey.  

[luuknam]

Somebody should tell him that people shouldn't bank on inheriting any houses, let alone two, especially far into the future, unless they've seen the will! Most people sell in order to pay their final expenses (or retirement home), or to bequeath money instead of real estate. I mean, some people do leave their house to their child, of course, but it's not compulsory.

 

Or, they leave the house to all their children, at which point one child needs to buy out the others, or they all sell it and take their share. That's what my grandparents did - my mom and her 6 siblings inherited equal portions of the house, and they sold it so she got 1/7 of the money. In the OP's case, if the siblings get half of the house each, I doubt the OP's brother would be able to buy her out, so either they'd sell it or she'd buy him out.

[luuknam]

Somebody should tell him that people shouldn't bank on inheriting any houses, let alone two, especially far into the future, unless they've seen the will! Most people sell in order to pay their final expenses (or retirement home), or to bequeath money instead of real estate. I mean, some people do leave their house to their child, of course, but it's not compulsory.

 

Or, like my in-laws, the house isn't anywhere near paid off. Not that my in-laws are dead yet, but they're both in their 70s. So, if they die, we'd inherit a mortgage with a relatively small chunk of equity. We'd probably come out ahead a little bit by selling it, but it's not like we'd inherit a house.

[mamiof5]

Fund me account? Expecting to inherit houses? Asking for money, cashing check and not even acknowledging it?

 

Sorry. I wouldn't give him a dime. I'd totally ignore the link

[Miss Mousie]

I would ignore the request, and if pressed I would try very hard to quote Plink. 

 

I might also mention to my parents his thoughts about the houses, so that they can set him straight if need be (if they like).  Normally I wouldn't think it my place to say anything, but if you and he are the only heirs, things could get quite ugly if your parents don't make their wishes clear in advance.

 

 

 

[Lanny]

Possibly they are eligible to apply for Food Stamps or some other aid from the state they live in? They need to reduce their expenses and/or increase their income. 

[kubiac]

I sympathize with your guilt, but the answer is NO. We've had requests for large amounts of cash from brothers on both sides, and what helped with the guilt and the firm "No" in our situation was having spousal backup.

 

My husband told his brother "No, we can't lend you money for the down payment on the umpteenth random real estate purchase this decade." BIL pushed and so husband handed phone to me, eventually, and it was very easy for me to clearly say "No, we are not able to do that," about 19 times until he got it.

 

Similarly, I was wracked with guilt about not lending my brother money for some stock options purchase/tax thing, but it was very easy for my husband to be firm with my brother, refer him to outside help and reassure me that we were not being "mean."

 

If you want to help out your brother, send him gift copies of Dave Ramsey's Total Money Makeover and Tom Stanley's The Millionaire Next Door and encourage his ongoing financial education.

[Plink]

Just wanted to jump back into the conversation to let you know that my heart truly goes out to you.  Relationships like this are hard, and I'm sure that you are anxious anticipating talking with your brother about this.  

 

I don't have many regrets in life, but my one big one is caving in to a request from a sibling that I knew deep in my heart was wrong.  It turned out just the way I feared it would, and I can see in hindsight how my "being nice" wasn't kind at all. 

 

((hugs))  Be strong.  Cry if you need to, but please be strong - for his sake even more than your own.

 

 

[Shellydon]

We have required family members to take a money management course prior to giving money.  So far, that has eliminated all requests.  As soon as we make the $$ contingent upon completing a course, they quit asking.

[Guest]

excuses/reasons should be avoided at all costs.  not only are they unnecessary - they are usually seen as a wedge to manipulating what the person wants. if you have to use an excuse to say no, they'll attack the excuse.

 

so - "I'm sorry, but we can't" . . . why?  "becasue we can't".  rinse, repeat  . . .

 

and lest it become a broken record . . . the answer is "no", please stop asking.

or in regards to one relative . . . what part of "no" don't you understand?

 

I love Miss Manners on this:

 

I'm sorry but we just can't.   WHY?

It just isn't possible.    WHY?

We won't be able to do so.  WHY? 

I'm sorry but we just can't.  and so on.  She had like 5 iterations of how to say the same thing over and over in different words.  It was a good thing to tuck away for later use.  

 

And don't add anything to these words.  Don't say, "We just can't at this time."  Because that makes it a different question:  WHEN?

If you do end up giving something, it is a gift, and you should never expect to see that money again.  Never ever lend to a family member or friend UNLESS UNLESS UNLESS you have reason to expect it to be paid back, you draw up proper loan agreements and you are willing to act on the default.  

 

eta correct grammar and "or friend"

[slackermom]

Last month, after looking online to help him find a rental and realizing the area is just too expensive, I asked him if he would want to keep living there even if it meant delaying retirement by a decade or buying a house by twenty years. (He is 30.) His answer was to say they'll have a house within twenty years because he thinks he'll inherit both of our parents houses. (He is assuming he will get both of them because DH and I "already have a house".)

 

I think he makes about 28-30k per year. Rent in the area looks to be about $1100-1300 unless they move even farther from his job.

 

Did you ask about the area on here last month? If it is the place I am thinking of, he really needs to be making at least TWICE as much as that in order to afford the area, or he is going to be in an even deeper hole in no time. Especially if he will be taking classes while working, as that makes it unlikely he can take on part-time work to bridge the gap. And, if his spouse does not have an income, or the prospect of one, this plan just seems unworkable. 

 

It is good of you that you have been trying to advise him, but you certainly don't need to subsidize his choice. 

[fraidycat]

I would just ignore and delete the email, then move on with life as if you'd never seen it. No guilt. No worries. You are not responsible for your grown brother's financial well-being.

 

If not giving money causes a rift, be grateful for seeing his true colors BEFORE you "paid" for the wisdom. I agree that if a relationship is contingent on whether you give money, it's not a relationship, at least not one that is worth saving.

 

After seeing my parents used and abused by various family members over the years (continuing even now) I've lost that rose-colored view of "sticking by family just because they're family". It's a left over sentiment from tribal/feudal times when standing up for each other was required for survival of the group. It's a sentiment that belongs in the history books. Today we get to "choose our tribe", blood relation or not.

Edited August 1, 2016 by fraidycat

[JumpyTheFrog]

Did you ask about the area on here last month? If it is the place I am thinking of, he really needs to be making at least TWICE as much as that in order to afford the area, or he is going to be in an even deeper hole in no time. Especially if he will be taking classes while working, as that makes it unlikely he can take on part-time work to bridge the gap. And, if his spouse does not have an income, or the prospect of one, this plan just seems unworkable.  

 

Yes, I did ask about the area last month. Nobody had any suggestions he was willing to consider.

 

He told me at Christmas or last summer that life should be about "having fun". I am just glad his idea of fun doesn't involve drinking or drugs.

[JumpyTheFrog]

I have deleted his email. I think I am going to just ignore it. I doubt he will put in the effort to call me and ask about it. Even if he does, if we don't answer the phone when he calls or return his call, I think it is unlikely he will be persistent.

[slackermom]

Yes, I did ask about the area last month. Nobody had any suggestions he was willing to consider.

 

He told me at Christmas or last summer that life should be about "having fun". I am just glad his idea of fun doesn't involve drinking or drugs.

 

Well, we looked in that area, and almost made an offer on a small condo in one of the alternate towns I recommended. In the end, we decided not to buy there, because I don't like highway driving. We simply cannot afford the towns your brother prefers, even though DH makes more than $60,000. 

 

Life can be about having fun, but a fun life doesn't need to be about living in a place you cannot afford, financed by others. It doesn't sound like your brother gets it.

[gardenmom5]

Somebody should tell him that people shouldn't bank on inheriting any houses, let alone two, especially far into the future, unless they've seen the will! Most people sell in order to pay their final expenses (or retirement home), or to bequeath money instead of real estate. I mean, some people do leave their house to their child, of course, but it's not compulsory.

People should not count on an inheritance at all. It is their money, and they are free to do with it what they wish.

I have seen people expecting an inheritance go off the deep end when they don't get what they think is owed to them.

[Pegasus]

I had a very similar situation with one of my siblings last year, complete with the GoFundMe page! To add to the guilt, she had recently lost her spouse and had lots of end-of-life expenses to pay off. I still did not give her any cash. Like your brother, she has made so many poor financial decisions that no amount would solve her problems long term. Instead, I spent money to fly cross country with one of my DDs. We stayed one week to help her sort, pack and haul away many many loads of stuff. I strongly disagreed with her plan but since I didn't have a financial stake involved I was able to keep my mouth shut and we had a nice visit.

 

We are still emotionally close so there were no hard feelings about not getting cash from me.

 

Support the relationship, not the perceived financial need.

Edited August 1, 2016 by Pegasus