The results of the godly tomatoes method on kids

[OhanaBee]

Being of an earlier generation than Babywise, both my mom and my aunt bought the book "My First 300 Babies" when my cousin and I were born.  Both Mom and Aunt will tell you that they "used" this book to raise us, since their mother died at an early age, and they had no one in their life who was able to come alongside them and help them learn how to mother.

 

And this is how I know that even if a book is horrible, most well-balanced people will be able to recognize when things are not working and need, in fact, to change direction.  My aunt is the sweetest person and believed in gentle mothering.  She took the good things from that book and applied them to her two very different children in ways that worked for each of them and allowed for a wonderful, loving relationship.  I've asked my oldest cousin [most like me in temperament] if she remembers power struggles with her Mom when she was younger.  Her response is that she never had a power struggle with her mom.  With her Dad, yes [for different reasons], but not with her Mom.  She remembers disagreeing with her mom, but they were always able to talk it out and come to a conclusion that did not end with one of them screaming at the other, then storming off and slamming their door.

 

Not so, in my house.  My mom is a very judgemental, worry-about-how-others-perceive-us, put-on-a-happy-face-no-matter-what kind of person.  I know why.  I know it was because of her horrible childhood.   But knowing that does not change the fact that she was determined to break my will and have complete control over my life and my emotions.  And I, being a strong willed kind of gal, was equally determined that she would not win the war.  {I have said to her years later, "I'm half Scottish and half Norwegian.......did you really think I was going to give in at any point!??!"}.  My brother was super compliant.  His personality is one in which he just wants everyone to be happy.  So he did fine with the schedule and dictates laid out in this book.   Based on things I now know, I probably had some sensory issues as a baby and toddler.  Plus that stubborness factor.  But my earliest memories are of battling my mom over something stupid like eating more than a bite of food I didn't want [Mom still claims I threw up the sweet potatoes on purpose because I was mad at her.  Yeah....that's it]

 

That stupid book and my Mom's insistence on following it to the letter pretty much set the stage for the rest of our relationship as long as I lived at home.  When we were at church, we had to look happy and close.  We were never allowed to tell anyone outside the family if there was a problem.  One of the best days of my life was when my friend's mom took me aside {I must have been around 11 or 12} and let me know that she knew my Mom was very hard on me.  And if I ever needed a refuge, I could come to her house.  That was when I realized that I didn't have to keep things a secret.  That I *did* have a voice worth being heard!

 

There are so many other ways that I was hurt emotionally as a child.  The physical part I could handle.  We had a few spankings.  None that stand out.  but as a teenager, I remember my Mom slapping me when I wouldn't give in to her.  Until the day she went to slap me and I grabbed her arm saying, "Don't. Ever. Do. That. Again."  {Thank you, water polo, for those strong arm muscles}

 

I wonder about all those other children whose parents thought this book was the way to have the best children.  How many of them are still dealing with the "results"?

 

Someone gave me a BabyWise book when my oldest dd was born.  It was very familiar.   I gave it to Goodwill, but now I wish I had just burned the darn thing.  I *do* still have Mom's copy of  "First 300 Babies" just to remind myself that all that crap wasn't my Mom's original idea.  It was some whackadoodle lady who worked as a baby nurse in the San Gabriel Valley in the 1960s and thought she was All That.

[Artichoke]

nm 

 

Edited March 7, 2017 by Artichoke

[gardenmom5]

Then again how can anyone be sure of the author's intention with the godly tomatoes methods?  This is a PERSON not a god.  They are taking stuff and twisting it to suit them and then spewing that stuff around in the name of this is what god supposedly wants.

I think it's a dangerous combination really.

 

Bingo.  that in itself, should send anyone who believes in God running for their life (or rather their children's lives.)

Yeah, I mean, I guess I just think there must be some type of personality that thinks you can input A and get output B when it comes to human beings.

sounds like a perfect personality for a computer programmer. very controlling.   you will only get out what you put in, and if you don't get what you want - you did something wrong. 

 

except, children are not computers, and are full of variables.

 

 

Well it would be nice if that was the case!

 

The more I observe my kids the more I believe there is only so much we can control in terms of their personalities and how they react to stuff.  If they happen to be highly sensitive and pessimistic, best we can do is probably get them to keep those thoughts to themselves (sort of...).  We are not actually changing who they are. 

 

I think one glimpse into our kids in terms of who they are as people is to look at ourselves.  They aren't mini twins of us, but there are likely things we have in common.  I try to remember how I felt as a person that age and why I reacted the way I did to certain things. 

 

My husband occasionally butts heads with our older kid.  Totally normal, but I find it comical that they both talk about the other one to me and DS is being XYZ and Dad is being XYZ and I'm thinking you both are XYZ...BOTH of you....XYZ all the way. 

at one time I had to lay down the law with 1dd and dh that they were not allowed to talk to each other unless I was there to referee - aka: *translate* (since they just couldn't speak each other's language.)  now, they have a very close relationship.

and it is comical when I can watch some things the kids do - and "see" me, or dh . . or someone else in their behavior or mannerisms.

 

I think you and I have a similar feeling about this, FaithManor.  

 

I can't see how people can read the RGT website and say, "Well, I'm not sure, I *guess* you could get abuse out of it somehow, but it seems pretty innocuous?"

 

It is riddled through and through with abuse.  The foundation of the philosophy is abusive.  It is not that this episode or that episode that she describes just goes too far; it is the entire idea that you must punish expressions of emotion or resistance or questioning in your child - in fact, you must *cause* these expressions, then punish them, so that your child is completely and totally under your control.  That is the idea behind the website as far as I can see.  That is an evil idea.

 

 

FWIW, we come from very different places to the same conclusion - I was raised without any corporal punishment, ever, not once.  My parents, in fact, were pretty thoroughly hands-off; I spent a lot of time as a young adult figuring out my own schema for right and wrong, as my parents' ideas were neither all that firmly held nor communicated to me with any fervor.

 

Turns out I am a fine human being :)  And I think almost all young adults go through the same process when growing up; it is okay and natural to leave kids with enough agency so that when they are no longer under your daily authority, they can make their own decisions and find their own moral framework, which with any luck incorporates the good parts of yours.

 

oh, my gosh.  I forgot about how she'd do that.  she loved to provoke something to which she could censure.  and that self-satisfied smirk when she "put us in our place".  it is evil.  it still gives me the creeps.

 

and there are people (even on this board) who deny that is abuse - or that is causes lasting damage.

it's possible to heal from such damage - but it is hard work.

[FaithManor]

Bingo. that in itself, should send anyone who believes in God running for their life (or rather their children's lives.)

sounds like a perfect personality for a computer programmer. very controlling. you will only get out what you put in, and if you don't get what you want - you did something wrong.

 

except, children are not computers, and are full of variables.

 

 

at one time I had to lay down the law with 1dd and dh that they were not allowed to talk to each other unless I was there to referee - aka: *translate* (since they just couldn't speak each other's language.) now, they have a very close relationship.

and it is comical when I can watch some things the kids do - and "see" me, or dh . . or someone else in their behavior or mannerisms.

 

 

oh, my gosh. I forgot about how she'd do that. she loved to provoke something to which she could censure. and that self-satisfied smirk when she "put us in our place". it is evil. it still gives me the creeps.

 

and there are people (even on this board) who deny that is abuse - or that is causes lasting damage.

it's possible to heal from such damage - but it is hard work.

Yes the teachers at the school I attended had been taught at BG seminars to deliberately set students up to "fail" and then stringently punish them in order to get the devil out and the Jesus in.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yes the teachers at the school I attended had been taught at BG seminars to deliberately set students up to "fail" and then stringently punish them in order to get the devil out and the Jesus in.

 

disgusting

 

How is that not "evil" really?

[gardenmom5]

Yes the teachers at the school I attended had been taught at BG seminars to deliberately set students up to "fail" and then stringently punish them in order to get the devil out and the Jesus in.

since my grandmother predated BG/pearl's/et.al - I'm convicned there was somewhere it was common parenting practice in the religious cultures.  That bg/pearls/et.al merely gathered it all together to make it more easily accessed.  (and if they can make money on people buying their books and attending their lectures - so much the better.)

the irony being - it's evil.

[maize]

Yes the teachers at the school I attended had been taught at BG seminars to deliberately set students up to "fail" and then stringently punish them in order to get the devil out and the Jesus in.

 

Can you imagine how adults would react to being treated this way?

 

I wonder sometimes if many adults have completely forgotten their own childhoods, such that they are able to pretend that children are a different type of being entirely from themselves?

[Guest]

Being of an earlier generation than Babywise, both my mom and my aunt bought the book "My First 300 Babies" when my cousin and I were born. Both Mom and Aunt will tell you that they "used" this book to raise us, since their mother died at an early age, and they had no one in their life who was able to come alongside them and help them learn how to mother.

 

And this is how I know that even if a book is horrible, most well-balanced people will be able to recognize when things are not working and need, in fact, to change direction. My aunt is the sweetest person and believed in gentle mothering. She took the good things from that book and applied them to her two very different children in ways that worked for each of them and allowed for a wonderful, loving relationship. I've asked my oldest cousin [most like me in temperament] if she remembers power struggles with her Mom when she was younger. Her response is that she never had a power struggle with her mom. With her Dad, yes [for different reasons], but not with her Mom. She remembers disagreeing with her mom, but they were always able to talk it out and come to a conclusion that did not end with one of them screaming at the other, then storming off and slamming their door.

 

Not so, in my house. My mom is a very judgemental, worry-about-how-others-perceive-us, put-on-a-happy-face-no-matter-what kind of person. I know why. I know it was because of her horrible childhood. But knowing that does not change the fact that she was determined to break my will and have complete control over my life and my emotions. And I, being a strong willed kind of gal, was equally determined that she would not win the war. {I have said to her years later, "I'm half Scottish and half Norwegian.......did you really think I was going to give in at any point!??!"}. My brother was super compliant. His personality is one in which he just wants everyone to be happy. So he did fine with the schedule and dictates laid out in this book. Based on things I now know, I probably had some sensory issues as a baby and toddler. Plus that stubborness factor. But my earliest memories are of battling my mom over something stupid like eating more than a bite of food I didn't want [Mom still claims I threw up the sweet potatoes on purpose because I was mad at her. Yeah....that's it]

 

That stupid book and my Mom's insistence on following it to the letter pretty much set the stage for the rest of our relationship as long as I lived at home. When we were at church, we had to look happy and close. We were never allowed to tell anyone outside the family if there was a problem. One of the best days of my life was when my friend's mom took me aside {I must have been around 11 or 12} and let me know that she knew my Mom was very hard on me. And if I ever needed a refuge, I could come to her house. That was when I realized that I didn't have to keep things a secret. That I *did* have a voice worth being heard!

 

There are so many other ways that I was hurt emotionally as a child. The physical part I could handle. We had a few spankings. None that stand out. but as a teenager, I remember my Mom slapping me when I wouldn't give in to her. Until the day she went to slap me and I grabbed her arm saying, "Don't. Ever. Do. That. Again." {Thank you, water polo, for those strong arm muscles}

 

I wonder about all those other children whose parents thought this book was the way to have the best children. How many of them are still dealing with the "results"?

 

Someone gave me a BabyWise book when my oldest dd was born. It was very familiar. I gave it to Goodwill, but now I wish I had just burned the darn thing. I *do* still have Mom's copy of "First 300 Babies" just to remind myself that all that crap wasn't my Mom's original idea. It was some whackadoodle lady who worked as a baby nurse in the San Gabriel Valley in the 1960s and thought she was All That.

OH MY HEAVENS! *That* was one of the books my mother gave me when I had my first child! I read it while I nursed my fussy firstborn and thought, "I'm not doing this! This is the worst load of garbage I have ever read!"

 

The only other book that I thought was crazier than the 300 Babies book was "The Christian Child's Little Book of Character and Manners" or something similar. The cover showed a vintage-style photo of a girl in a nightgown praying. It was so quaint. Until I started reading it. *shudder* both that book and the 300 babies books went into the actual trash because I wanted them to cease existing.

 

Another book my mother gave me was called "Children are Wet Cement." You know...like a blob that you mold into what you want.

 

Not really.

[MotherGoose]

I did use babywise with my oldest, particularly, but did not go to extremes with it (i.e. No prolonged crying). The schedule in there was very helpful to me because I really had no idea what to do with a baby all day or how much they slept. There was in fact no danger of my baby crying because she was early and slept about 22/24 hours a day. I definitely had it easy and do not presume to tell people who have colicky or fussy babies that if only they did this or that their baby would be fine. With my last one, a schedule was impossible anyway, and then the prevailing wisdom from the hospital was feed on demand--10 years ago it was feed on a schedule. My last baby is the happiest yet. I will say that I learned two very important things from BW that seem to fly in the face of some conventional wisdom: don't rock the baby to sleep, and don't go to him the second he fusses (screaming when you know something is wrong is another matter, I'm just talking about plain old fussing). Mine have all gone to sleep with a minimum of drama, and I believe at least part of the reason is that they've always slept alone, and, when possible, I've always put them down awake. I'm terrible at putting down a sleeping baby without waking them anyway :) My current baby, when he's ready to go to sleep, fusses in my arms and when I lay him in the crib he grabs his paci, rolls onto his belly, and goes to sleep pretty easily. As for the fussing, all parents learn, for their child, the diffence in the cries and when they need immediate attention and when it can wait a bit and possibly self correct if given a chance. Once again, I am NOT trying to say that BW is the cure for everything, but just wanted to say that we definitely use principles from the book to our advantage. I've also been blessed, most definitely, with easy babies. They would have probably been happy no matter what. I do think you can inadvertently teach a baby that he needs you to rock him to sleep or stay with him until he falls asleep, though, and that you can also teach them they will be fine falling asleep alone.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Geesh, I am out of the loop though.  I have not heard of pretty much any of these books.  I just wing it.  So wild and crazy of me I know...LOL

 

 

[happi duck]

Cause and effect isn't that simple when looking at humans. We really can't know if that one piece of advice really did *anything* unless we can go back and parent the *same* kid differently, kwim?

[SparklyUnicorn]

Cause and effect isn't that simple when looking at humans. We really can't know if that one piece of advice really did *anything* unless we can go back and parent the *same* kid differently, kwim?

 

Yes.  And then I bet there is something about people who follow certain advice verses those who do not.  So many factors.

[happi duck]

Geesh, I am out of the loop though. I have not heard of pretty much any of these books. I just wing it. So wild and crazy of me I know...LOL

My awesome mom died when my oldest was 10 weeks old. She only had time for one piece of parenting advice: "you're the mom, trust yourself". So I have also been winging it with that encouragement in mind.

[SparklyUnicorn]

My awesome mom died when my oldest was 10 weeks old. She only had time for one piece of parenting advice: "you're the mom, trust yourself". So I have also been winging it with that encouragement in mind.

 

Awww...

 

My mother met my older kid, but never my younger kid. 

[happi duck]

Awww...

 

My mother met my older kid, but never my younger kid.

I'm always sort of stunned when people my age or older have parents...or nice mils!

[dirty ethel rackham]

Many, many, many people believe "sensory issues" is like ADHD - an excuse permissive parents use  to not appropriately deal with their children.

 

Edited to say, I don't think ADHD is made up, but, lots of people do. "It's no coincidence that we stopped spanking right when it became OK for kids to act bratty" etc etc.

People forget that in the era of harsh spanking, there were still kids who acted bratty.  I was raised in that era and there were a lots of kids who got paddled, smirked through their tears and kept on being bratty, just sneakier. 

 

Not disagreeing with most of this, but--I am not willing to place the blame on a parent's shoulders when a child has a mental illness. I just know too many really caring, non abusive parents who have children who have fallen into that abyss.

 

The parenting might have played a role, I'm certainly not in favor of such tactics, but "blame the parents for the child's illness" can be just as dangerous as this child blaming herself for her sibling's disability.

:iagree: Thank you so much for saying this.  As someone who strived for gentle, sensitive authoritative, but not authoritarian parenting, I still ended up with a child with mental illness.  This is a kid who was always very challenging due to sensory issues.  I was often overwhelmed by their intensity and didn't always live up to my parenting ideals.  I struggle with guilt over those times when I fell short.  With my other kids it was much easier to live up to those ideals.  My heart aches fro all other parents who are living this nightmare. 

[MercyA]

Yes the teachers at the school I attended had been taught at BG seminars to deliberately set students up to "fail" and then stringently punish them in order to get the devil out and the Jesus in.

 

How incredibly stupid and cruel.  :(

[AimeeM]

If there was anything even remotely redeeming about the entire philosophy or book, it lost me completely at advocating 30+ minutes of standing cornertime for a three year old.

Quote from website-here is the link--http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/ch10.php

 

"The Screamer"
Here's a helpful exchange between myself and several other moms regarding their screaming children:

Tami: My daughter, almost three, has been a screamer since birth. Although things are improving, she still does it far too often; and she is so LOUD! She will cry over things that are very small and trivial. It's so bad that she's nick-named "The Screamer" amongst our relatives. Here's an example: 

(She comes to me and asks if she can sit on my lap when I am on the computer�)
Me: �No sweetie".
(She begins to wail loudly.)
Me: �Stop fussing right now�.
(She cries.)
Me: (I spank her, one swat) �Stop right now". 
(She cries louder.)
Me: (I spank again, and then give her a few seconds to compose herself.)
(She makes no effort to stop.)
Me: "Stop crying right now".
(She continues to scream.)
Me: "Look at me. Stop crying � now�"

This goes on, with variations, for what seems like forever. She cries; I spank and instruct; she cries; repeat, repeat, repeat. Finally she stops, smiles for me, and obeys my instructions for her to �wait�. 

But it doesn�t end there. A few minutes later she begins howling again and the entire scene repeats itself all over. It never seems to really end until she either gets what she wants or until her mind wanders off onto some other subject. That is just one instance of what repeats itself throughout the day, all day, every day. Any ideas?

Elizabeth: She's got quite a habit going there, doesn�t she? Not only is it a habit, but I think she must be getting some satisfaction out of all the attention and drama.

Clearly, what you are doing isn't working. I think you need to try a different approach to break this habitual cycle. As soon as she erupts, say nothing, but administer one firm swat to the bottom, and stand her in the corner. Choose a corner where you can see her, but be sure she stays facing the wall so she can not see any of your inadvertent reactions to her annoying crying. Do not audible react to her either. It is very important that she does not feel she has an audience.

Don't order her to stop crying yet. Simply let her know that if she wants to cry, she must stand in the corner by herself - �Where I don't have to listen to you.� Spank if she leaves the corner, but otherwise pay no attention to her. She'll probably continue to exercise her lungs for a while, but eventually she'll get tired and stop.

Soon she'll ask to leave the corner. Tell her, �No.� Don't say anything else. She'll probably start crying again, but ignore her. Only step in if she sits down or tries to leave the corner. Don't say anything, just correct her and return her to the corner. At that point tell her, "You wanted to cry, so stand here and cry. Don't ask when you can leave. I'll tell you when you can leave."

Trust me, she will know why she is there, so don't explain any more than that. The more you talk, the more excuses you'll provide for her to continue arguing with you via her whining, sniffing, and crying.

Eventually, she will be standing quietly. Let her stand for a while longer. This entire process may occupy a half hour or so at first. Even if she gets the idea quickly and cooperates, wait until she is thoroughly bored before releasing her. Don't talk to her or interact with her at all except to correct as needed. When you are certain she has the right attitude (not crying, and resigned to spending the rest of her life in the corner), then tell her to come to you. Have her look at you and ask her if she is finished crying. She'll probably say, �Yes.� Respond to her with, "Good, now go play and don't let me hear that crying any more." 

Important: Repeat this the next time she starts up again and every time thereafter.

The idea here is to surprise her with a different approach that gives you several advantages: (1) It changes the focus from something you can't easily control (her crying) to something you can easily control (standing in the corner). (2) It removes all the pleasure she gets from the crying. (That's why it is important not to visibly or audibly respond to her.) (3) Standing in the corner is something that will make her uncomfortable and motivate her to give up her beloved screaming habit.

 

Edited June 25, 2016 by AimeeM

[Lang Syne Boardie]

For everybody pointing out how harmless bad books are in the hands of competent people, there's one other angle to consider:

 

Group think.

 

I saw Ezzoism at its absolute most destructive degree in a medium-sized church where 95% of the parents were devoted to the philosophy. The bullying and peer pressure led to child abuse. Competition (for Most Perfect Kid? The kid who eats the least and sleeps the most and never squawks?) was rife, and so harmful. The moms were all pressured to homeschool, and to have their babies "under control" and they were cracking under the pressure.

 

I had to intervene with a failure to thrive case, when I overheard the mother being advised by several other moms to ignore her doctor's advice (that baby was FTT and at risk of requiring hospitalization) because he wasn't a "godly" doctor and didn't understand "God's way" to feed babies. She was reluctant but definitely going along with the advice.

 

I have seen similar pressure in the No Greater Joy/Pearl camp of people, and definitely amongst ATI/BG people. I have relatives who would only spend time with other NGJ parents when their kids were little (so the kids would all be under the same expectations from all adults at all times) who later switched to Gothardism when the children were teens. Homeschool groups, churches, even the relatives with whom they spend the most time, were all carefully curated to build this world on these philosophies. They don't want their children to question the lifestyle, or be exposed to other ideas.

 

From other parents, I have learned that this gathering together with "like-minded" people is not unique to my ATI relatives. It's very, very common for those of these philosophies.

 

I like living all free out here in the wild, so if people who don't agree with me lock, stock, and barrel see me doing something crazy or harmful, they'll act like normal people and tell me. I don't want to be surrounded by an echo chamber that begins to look a lot like a cult.

 

 

[MegP]

Aimee, Did you read this excerpt where the mom is told to have her child stand in the corner with his hands on his head?????  I am not sure how old these kids are (not that it really matters) but not only is the kid in the corner, he is also being spanked and has to keep his hands on his head.

 

 

link-http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/ch10.php

 

"Learning the Hard Way
Grace: Okay, here's the short version. Ever since our latest baby was born seven months ago, our kids have spiraled downhill in both their behavior and attitudes. Of course, we've always had an excuse: we're all adjusting to new baby, the kids are tired, Mom's tired, somebody's sick, Mom was sick for a week and dad took over and let them run wild...

Finally, my husband and I have confronted the excuses, and the truth is we've become incredibly inconsistent, we have been tolerating impudent back talk, and we have responded in anger far too often. 

So, in an effort to remedy matters, I conducted a family forum this morning on the kids� need to be obedient and to honor their parents. I told them that Mom and Dad have a job too: to love them, and to train them with discipline -- not punish out of anger. At the end of my short lecture, I laid down the law: no more bickering, whining, and back-talking. Violators would be sent to the corner immediately every time.

Within five minutes, both boys were sent to the corner. I followed your cure for "The Screamer". Ruddy, after twenty minutes of sitting, said, "Sorry" and has been playing nicely all day since. Joel, however, is testing me. He has been in the corner much of the day.

Here's the problem. He will not obey in the corner. He keeps turning around and talking to his siblings. He grabs at them if they walk past him, and he keeps pestering me to release him. His attitude is nasty.

What do I do? I know that he fully expects me to get angry, yell at him, and then spank. I am determined not to lose my temper like that, but it's a real trial! For example, a few minutes ago he asked for a blanket to sit on because the tiles are cold. Then, instead of sitting on it, he kept dropping it on his head and playing. I took the blanket away and now he wants a book. I keep stopping every sentence with, "Joel, be quiet and face the wall. Every time you speak you are adding time to how long you are going to be there." It doesn't seem to be helping.

Do I spank him, or what?

Elizabeth: By all means, spank him. Some children will only learn the hard way. He is deliberately defying you, and doesn�t plan to quit until you yield. So the next time he speaks or turns around, spank. If necessary, post yourself next to him with paddle in hand. Don't speak or argue with him. If he wants to make this into a battle, oblige him with the paddle.

Don't tell him you are adding more time on; that just sounds like a threat. Do tell him that he stays until you are convinced he is ready to obey.

Don't make him comfortable! What's with the blanket!? Make him a little UNcomfortable. If he persists, make him more uncomfortable. Make him stand up and put his hands on his head and give him a swat if he puts them down. (Use common sense � every once in a while have him put them down or shake them so they get some circulation -- but then make him put them right back up there again.) Don't explain why you are doing this; he will soon realize that the way to get comfortable again is to give in and obey. 

Grace: I finally won at 3:30 P.M. and he has been a joy ever since! 

I hovered over him and delivered a swat each time he peeped. I also made him stand facing the corner with his arms straight up in the air while he counted to fifty. If he put his arms down, I made him start over. THREE times, he reached forty-nine and put his arms down. I made him start over each time.

I can't imagine why he would punish himself this way, but he did. After he finally counted to fifty with his arms raised, I let him put his arms down, but still made him stand in the corner another ten minutes. He apologized and has been a new child ever since.

In conclusion, let me say this is the first time in the past four months that I didn't lose my temper and let him win. No doubt he will test again, probably to see if he can win with Dad. We are both determined to win though, and break this cycle of hysteria! Thanks!

Elizabeth: Wonderful work, Grace! Now save this and tape it to your refrigerator as a reminder for next time.

Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.
- Proverbs 12:1

[LucyStoner]

I really don't like this "winning" thing. My sons and I are not in a competition to see who "wins". If I want to compete in something I'll join a running club or a softball team, TYVM. I am fundamentally NOT competing with my own children.

 

What a juvenile outlook on parenting.

 

Winning means someone is losing. Why would I want my sons to lose and what is it exactly they would be losing? If it's their will, I don't want them to lose that. Kids without a will are more susceptible to the machinations of others as they grow up and less likely to be the ones who are willing to stand up to their peers. If disagreeing with me now and again is the price I have to pay for having kids who will speak truth to power or stand up against peer pressures (as children and adults), I consider that a great bargain.

[Guest]

The idea of 'winning' in some kind of battle of the wills between a grown woman and a small child is appalling.

Exactly what I was thinking.

[LucyStoner]

If there was anything even remotely redeeming about the entire philosophy or book, it lost me completely at advocating 30+ minutes of standing cornertime for a three year old.

Totally.

 

Also in the example you quoted the mom was spanking her three year old child for being upset. Why was the child upset? Because she made a bid for her mother's attention and mom picked the computer over her. I'd not answer no to that question unless I was on the computer for a very important thing and then I would say "not just now, in X minutes" and offer her something to do that was close by. If she has time to spank her kid every time she continues showing emotion for being denied attention, than I am going to have to guess that whatever she is doing on the computer isn't that time urgent. If she can stop to spank over and over (mom described this as going on "forever"), she probably could have said yes to the original, simple bid for attention and affection. When your child is three and you have something you need to do on the computer without that child around, you try and do it at a time they are sleeping, have access to another caregiver or are otherwise happily occupied. The only problem there to correct is the mom, not the three year old. Kids won't always be waddling over and asking to sit on our laps. Just enjoy it while we are fortunate enough to have that precious time.

 

ETA- and Elizabeth's advice is to spank and put the three year old in the corner until she has the right attitude. Pay no attention but to keep her in the corner with more spanking as needed. She then defines the right attitude parenthetically as "not crying and being resigned to stay in the corner "for the rest of her life". Say what?!

 

It's like they are training the child to accept being ignored and neglected. I believe Jesus said "let the children come to me and do not hinder them."

Edited June 26, 2016 by LucyStoner

[HS Mom in NC]

I once got the Ezzo parenting group kicked out of my church.  That is, they weren't allowed to use the church facilities for their parenting classes and they weren't allowed to hand out any materials on church grounds, but the church didn't revoke their individual memberships or anything.   It was easy, I just had the pastor and the deacons read the book, Growing Kid's God's Way.  The edition at the time had a statement in it that basically said how can you expect God to show grace to your child is you don't raise them right? It was a Southern Baptist Church and that crowd is hard core on grace, by definition, being unearned and considers the implication it could be earned as heresy.

A few years later we attended a Bible Church where the childless pastor handed out an article about the shocking number of churches that split over Ezzo teachings and that Ezzo had been kicked out of his church he attended when he wrote the book.  Our pastor made it very clear that there are plenty of variations on how to parent children in godly ways and he didn't want conflict in his church over it. 

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I once got the Ezzo parenting group kicked out of my church.  That is, they weren't allowed to use the church facilities for their parenting classes and they weren't allowed to hand out any materials on church grounds, but the church didn't revoke their individual memberships or anything.   It was easy, I just had the pastor and the deacons read the book, Growing Kid's God's Way.  The edition at the time had a statement in it that basically said how can you expect God to show grace to your child is you don't raise them right? It was a Southern Baptist Church and that crowd is hard core on grace, by definition, being unearned and considers the implication it could be earned as heresy.

 

A few years later we attended a Bible Church where the childless pastor handed out an article about the shocking number of churches that split over Ezzo teachings and that Ezzo had been kicked out of his church he attended when he wrote the book.  Our pastor made it very clear that there are plenty of variations on how to parent children in godly ways and he didn't want conflict in his church over it. 

 

That is wonderful. The pastor in our church-that-turned-Ezzo was 100% for it, and bullied the rest of the leadership into tolerating it. (This in spite of the fact that the doctrines were flat opposite of what we all professed to believe, too...he was all about the so-called results. Perfect families.)

 

We had no choice but to leave.

[Guest]

since my grandmother predated BG/pearl's/et.al - I'm convicned there was somewhere it was common parenting practice in the religious cultures. That bg/pearls/et.al merely gathered it all together to make it more easily accessed. (and if they can make money on people buying their books and attending their lectures - so much the better.)

the irony being - it's evil.

The Puritans maybe? And then there was the whole children are to be seen and not heard movement. I think beatings like these y'all describe would be the only way to make children (un)naturally quiet. At least my children. I mean they're kids. They make noise!

[SKL]

In my childhood, I think it was pretty normal to be taught that some emotions are outright wrong.  At least I felt "wrong" when I had those emotions.

 

There is some truth to the idea that outward cheerfulness can promote inward cheerfulness.  It's a tactic used by some adults.

 

Like every other parenting idea, this is going to work with some kids and not with others.  Those who have kids who respond well to that will tout it.  The rest of us will scoff at it.

 

I'm more curious about how our culture became so willing to parent based on any book written by a stranger, especially when it conflicts with one's own instinct and experiences.  We trust some person who never met us or our kids, and doesn't actually care if we live or die, over people who would die for our kids.  Strange.

[poppy]

 

 

I'm more curious about how our culture became so willing to parent based on any book written by a stranger, especially when it conflicts with one's own instinct and experiences.  We trust some person who never met us or our kids, and doesn't actually care if we live or die, over people who would die for our kids.  Strange.

People often look to others for experience and advice, that's not strange.

What do you mean, "over people who would die for our kids"? Who is that?

When I had my kid, I was the first in my circle of friends and I lived 12 hours away from my mom. You can bet I bought some books.  The alternative is - what - instinct?

Cooking, cleaning, driving, swimming.... lots of things we don't do by instinct. 

[FaithManor]

Hands in the air, count to fifty, don't make it, grt smacked, start again, over and over, finally accomplish it with more smacking along the way, and the meet the goal and have another ten minutes just for good measure???

 

Wow! Sounds like Guantanamo for little kids.

 

Sickening.

 

If I were Joel it wouldn't take me long to not only be dreadfully frightened of my parents, but hate them as well. I prescribe a nice Bill Gothard Journey of the Heart camp therapy for mom and dad. They get to stand on a chair on their tiptoes in the main corridor so there are lots of spies around and eggs are carefully placed under their back heels so if they flinch, the eggs break and they receive ten lashes for each egg.

 

I have always felt that abusers deserve a taste of their own medicine.

[DesertBlossom]

In my childhood, I think it was pretty normal to be taught that some emotions are outright wrong. At least I felt "wrong" when I had those emotions.

 

There is some truth to the idea that outward cheerfulness can promote inward cheerfulness. It's a tactic used by some adults.

 

Like every other parenting idea, this is going to work with some kids and not with others. Those who have kids who respond well to that will tout it. The rest of us will scoff at it.

 

I'm more curious about how our culture became so willing to parent based on any book written by a stranger, especially when it conflicts with one's own instinct and experiences. We trust some person who never met us or our kids, and doesn't actually care if we live or die, over people who would die for our kids. Strange.

For the most part, we start out with very little experience. ;) I know a young couple who were concerned because their 6-8 month old baby didn't like babyfood. They were getting WIC and felt like their baby should be eating all the food they were getting with their checks. I tried gently encouraging them that if baby was getting enough milk (formula fed) then he was just fine. Solid food at that age is just practice. I don't think they believed me though.

[Rivka]

For some reason, this bit is particularly giving me chills:

 

For example, if we're discussing plans for him to learn Spanish, he'll pop up with, "No, I want to learn Chinese." Or I'll say, "Take that toy off your head," and he'll say, "But I like it on my head." Recently, he heard me talking with a friend about the leaves falling early this year, and he interjected, "I don't see a single leaf." He's not obviously cocky or belligerent. Instead, he seems cheery and good-natured, but this behavior is progressing into a habit that goes beyond what I think is acceptable.

Elizabeth: Venturing from good-natured opinion into deliberate opposition is being "contrary", the first step toward becoming "argumentative". Again, this stems from arrogance on his part. He thinks his opinion should count for as much as yours and is intent upon proving it to you. So nip this in the bud to head off what will only degenerate. Whenever he exhibits his contrary mode, stop him and offer an appropriate model and insist he follow it. For example:

Mom: I really like it when the curtains are open and the sun shines in.
Contrary child: (with a smile) I like it better when it's dark in here.
Mom: Son, that is a foolish statement. Say: "I agree Mom, the sun is very nice shining in here". 
Child: But Mom, I....
Mom: (in a 'no joking' voice) Say what I told you to say NOW and don't say anything else.
Child: I agree Mom, the sun is very nice shining in here.
Mom: That's better; now don't do that again.

 

 

[AimeeM]

Let me digest my dinner first. I have the feeling it's going to make my stomach churn.

I'll come back in 30. I think I need some corner time to calm down first.

Aimee, Did you read this excerpt where the mom is told to have her child stand in the corner with his hands on his head?????  I am not sure how old these kids are (not that it really matters) but not only is the kid in the corner, he is also being spanked and has to keep his hands on his head.

 

 

link-http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/ch10.php

 

"Learning the Hard Way
Grace: Okay, here's the short version. Ever since our latest baby was born seven months ago, our kids have spiraled downhill in both their behavior and attitudes. Of course, we've always had an excuse: we're all adjusting to new baby, the kids are tired, Mom's tired, somebody's sick, Mom was sick for a week and dad took over and let them run wild...

Finally, my husband and I have confronted the excuses, and the truth is we've become incredibly inconsistent, we have been tolerating impudent back talk, and we have responded in anger far too often. 

So, in an effort to remedy matters, I conducted a family forum this morning on the kids� need to be obedient and to honor their parents. I told them that Mom and Dad have a job too: to love them, and to train them with discipline -- not punish out of anger. At the end of my short lecture, I laid down the law: no more bickering, whining, and back-talking. Violators would be sent to the corner immediately every time.

Within five minutes, both boys were sent to the corner. I followed your cure for "The Screamer". Ruddy, after twenty minutes of sitting, said, "Sorry" and has been playing nicely all day since. Joel, however, is testing me. He has been in the corner much of the day.

Here's the problem. He will not obey in the corner. He keeps turning around and talking to his siblings. He grabs at them if they walk past him, and he keeps pestering me to release him. His attitude is nasty.

What do I do? I know that he fully expects me to get angry, yell at him, and then spank. I am determined not to lose my temper like that, but it's a real trial! For example, a few minutes ago he asked for a blanket to sit on because the tiles are cold. Then, instead of sitting on it, he kept dropping it on his head and playing. I took the blanket away and now he wants a book. I keep stopping every sentence with, "Joel, be quiet and face the wall. Every time you speak you are adding time to how long you are going to be there." It doesn't seem to be helping.

Do I spank him, or what?

Elizabeth: By all means, spank him. Some children will only learn the hard way. He is deliberately defying you, and doesn�t plan to quit until you yield. So the next time he speaks or turns around, spank. If necessary, post yourself next to him with paddle in hand. Don't speak or argue with him. If he wants to make this into a battle, oblige him with the paddle.

Don't tell him you are adding more time on; that just sounds like a threat. Do tell him that he stays until you are convinced he is ready to obey.

Don't make him comfortable! What's with the blanket!? Make him a little UNcomfortable. If he persists, make him more uncomfortable. Make him stand up and put his hands on his head and give him a swat if he puts them down. (Use common sense � every once in a while have him put them down or shake them so they get some circulation -- but then make him put them right back up there again.) Don't explain why you are doing this; he will soon realize that the way to get comfortable again is to give in and obey. 

Grace: I finally won at 3:30 P.M. and he has been a joy ever since! 

I hovered over him and delivered a swat each time he peeped. I also made him stand facing the corner with his arms straight up in the air while he counted to fifty. If he put his arms down, I made him start over. THREE times, he reached forty-nine and put his arms down. I made him start over each time.

I can't imagine why he would punish himself this way, but he did. After he finally counted to fifty with his arms raised, I let him put his arms down, but still made him stand in the corner another ten minutes. He apologized and has been a new child ever since.

In conclusion, let me say this is the first time in the past four months that I didn't lose my temper and let him win. No doubt he will test again, probably to see if he can win with Dad. We are both determined to win though, and break this cycle of hysteria! Thanks!

Elizabeth: Wonderful work, Grace! Now save this and tape it to your refrigerator as a reminder for next time.

Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, but he who hates reproof is stupid.
- Proverbs 12:1

 

[8circles]

For some reason, this bit is particularly giving me chills:

 

I'm with Quill and others (sorry, I can't remember who offhand) who have experienced this kind of "parenting".  This example of being contrary (and others, but this kind of thing is worse in my memories) could have come from my life.  I think it's difficult to imagine sometimes for people who haven't been parented this way & have come from more gracious & loving families.  It isn't just one event or episode, it's a way of life.  A way of life that's devoid of love, grace, encouragement, or interest.  It isn't "fake it til you make it" - which can totally work in the right circumstances.  It's a beating-down of who you are, your personhood, your soul.  Of course, there are different levels of extremes and not everyone will agree with my adjectives, but I think those of us who've been through it can all agree that there is no good in it.  There is no meat on the bones, it's just gristle.

[Lady Florida.]

I really don't like this "winning" thing. My sons and I are not in a competition to see who "wins". If I want to compete in something I'll join a running club or a softball team, TYVM. I am fundamentally NOT competing with my own children.

What a juvenile outlook on parenting.

Winning means someone is losing. Why would I want my sons to lose and what is it exactly they would be losing? If it's their will, I don't want them to lose that. Kids without a will are more susceptible to the machinations of others as they grow up and less likely to be the ones who are willing to stand up to their peers. If disagreeing with me now and again is the price I have to pay for having kids who will speak truth to power or stand up against peer pressures (as children and adults), I consider that a great bargain.

 

 

This whole post needed repeating.

 

 

I once got the Ezzo parenting group kicked out of my church. 

 

That's great! When we still attended church I was with a group of women who got an Ezzo speaker dis-invited. One of the young moms was a follower and convinced our pastor to invite this speaker. Some of us suspected he didn't know anything about Ezzo and that she probably sold him on it without fully disclosing the abusive methods. It turned out we were right, and when we showed him some materials that one mom had kept (even though she wasn't using them), he put a stop to any discussion of Ezzo speakers, workshops, or anything to do with them. A few Sundays later his sermon was on gentle parenting.

[gardenmom5]

I'm with Quill and others (sorry, I can't remember who offhand) who have experienced this kind of "parenting".  This example of being contrary (and others, but this kind of thing is worse in my memories) could have come from my life.  I think it's difficult to imagine sometimes for people who haven't been parented this way & have come from more gracious & loving families.  It isn't just one event or episode, it's a way of life.  A way of life that's devoid of love, grace, encouragement, or interest.  It isn't "fake it til you make it" - which can totally work in the right circumstances.  It's a beating-down of who you are, your personhood, your soul.  Of course, there are different levels of extremes and not everyone will agree with my adjectives, but I think those of us who've been through it can all agree that there is no good in it.  There is no meat on the bones, it's just gristle.

 

not even that much.  the bones that are there, don't even have enough marrow with which to make stock.

 

makes me think of the cartoon of cavemen sitting around a fire discussing  what to do with the bones because there's nothing else left.

Edited June 26, 2016 by gardenmom5

[El...]

For some reason, this bit is particularly giving me chills:

What!?  That's like... that's like the Taming of the Shrew!  That's from the book?  Wow.

[MegP]

What!?  That's like... that's like the Taming of the Shrew!  That's from the book?  Wow.

 

Tomato kids are not allowed to have opinions that differ from their parents. Because their parents are godly and perfect and it is rebellious to have different opinions than your parents.

 

Ugh.

[Rivka]

What!?  That's like... that's like the Taming of the Shrew!  That's from the book?  Wow.

 

Sadly, yes. Here's the link: http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/ch12.php

[LucyStoner]

For some reason, this bit is particularly giving me chills:

Me too.

 

Kids aren't entitled to opinions? And heaven forbid a child have the gall to pick their own instrument or what language to study or express what lighting level they like. We can't have that! Good grief.

[MegP]

The other problem with the tomatoes method is that if the kids do not respond like the author says they should, then the mom feels like a failure. For example if your child lies "post toddler"-

 

"A few of my toddlers tried lying once or twice, but that's it. Out of ten children, I only recall one or two instances where a post-toddler lied to me. Why? Are my children special? No, not at all. It is because from the outset I hated lying, watched carefully for it, nipped it in the bud, and communicated my beliefs to the offenders about the subject. I taught them to hate it too."  Link--http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/ch14.php

 

 Or if your teen rebels...it must be your fauilt as a parent. She said this in an earlier version of her website-

https://web.archive.org/web/20050518235948/http://www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com/

 

"Secondly, I was terrified that some or all of my children might grow up to be rebellious and/or unbelievers. I didn't know how I could live with that. I'd rather not have kids. I figured I'd already taken a chance by having the ones I had, and I wasn't sure I wanted to tempt fate further. I didn't think it was enough to just say I was "doing my best and trusting God with the rest." I'd seen way too many other Christians do that and end up with teens on drugs, and pregnant, and hating God, and certainly hating their parents.

 

Then two things happened. First, we discovered homeschooling. That gave me great hope that maybe I wouldn't have to shove my kids out into the world away from my guidance and protection at age 5. Maybe I could keep them from peer pressure and negative influences for at least a little while longer, and maybe that would allow us to stay "close" to them for a while longer too. I really, really wanted to stay close to my kids. I remember a neighbor casually commenting to me one day, "Oh, you lose them when they go to school." WHAT?! I did not want to lose my kids. Homeschooling gave me hope that this might not have to happen.

 

Secondly, (and this was the biggie) we started fellowshipping with a slightly older couple who knew how to discipline in a godly way that worked! Their kids had grown from babyhood and toddler age, past early childhood and into and through the teen years with no temper tantrums, no terrible twos, teenaged rebellion, no raging hormones, no drug problems, no promiscuity, no anything awful.  How could that be? They even loved God and their parents. Gasp!

As we began to ask for and follow this couple's parenting advice, we very quickly realized that we really could raise godly children who would not go astray! God does give us a plan for doing so, we don't have to just roll the dice. Suddenly we had hope and confidence for the future.  "

Edited June 26, 2016 by MegP

[SproutMamaK]

"Question: My six-year-old has a problem with talking to me about matters that bother her. When upset, instead of coming to me, she'll go sit by herself, often to pout or cry. When I approach her, she will sit with me, but won't tell me what's wrong. I can ask her, "Did you hurt yourself? Did Mommy do something that upset you? Did your sister do something to you?" But she'll only shake her head and sadly say, �No.� When I ask her what did happen, she'll either say she doesn't want to talk about it, or she will just remain silent. Eventually, she gets over it.

When this type of behavior occurs, what should I do? Should I persist in trying to find out what is wrong? Should I keep trying to convince her to discuss it with me, or should I just let it go?

Elizabeth: I strongly suspect that you are feeling sorry for her and perhaps feeling a little guilty yourself, thinking you might be the cause of her misery. Don�t be deceived. This sounds like self-pity and manipulation to me, which are simply derivatives of pride. I would ask her what she was pouting about and I would expect an answer. I would not accept her refusal to respond. If I really thought she wanted to tell me, but was being held back by shyness, then I might do some gentle probing, but even then, I would ultimately expect an honest answer.

What I sometimes do in similar situations, when a child refuses to answer me, is to have him sit quietly at the table for a while. Then I ask him again. If he is still resistant, I let him know that he won't be leaving the table until he is ready to have an honest discussion with me. I don't get angry with him, but I don't back down either. Yes, I outlast him. He must learn to set aside his pride and communicate. This is one of the most important things you can ever teach your child. It is unacceptable for a person to clam up and punish everyone with his silence. He may appear to be heartbroken over some injustice, but it�s really just a slight injury to his pride that he has turned into manipulation and vindictiveness. The longer a child holds out and gives you The Silent Treatment, the more it indicates that he arrogantly believes he has the right to act this way. I wouldn't want to deal with such a person as an adult, and I can't even imagine being married to someone like this. As always, your job is to teach godliness. Learning not to manipulate, but to humbly communicate, is an important part of godliness."

 

Oh my word. A child may not be sad publicly. They may not have privacy. They must be forced to share their innermost thoughts and feelings are be in trouble, because they need to learn that Mom & Dad will be cruel to them until they tell them their secrets. And then once they tell their secrets they must be prepared to be punished for them if they're out of line. Because after all the CHILD is arrogant for wanting to feel sad and have space. Holy moly, I don't even... that breaks my heart. TELL ME WHAT'S WRONG AND TRUST ME WITH YOUR INNERMOST THOUGHTS OR I WILL HURT YOU sure seems like *fantastic* parenting, and a great precedent to set for future relationships! [/sarc]

[poppy]

These stories are sickening.  Those poor children.

[LucyStoner]

10 kids and no lies at all past toddlerhood? Never shows emotions or anger with her kids? Hmmm.

 

I don't buy it when people claim to be perfect or have the solution for everything or who claim that what they do always works for every child. I only have 2 kids and what works swimmingly with one may be lousy with the other. 10 kids who all have identical responses to one approach? Color me skeptical.

 

More likely she was oblivious to her kids' lies. And if she was posting about her anger management stuff on top of her also being human, the always stay calm thing is probably a crock too. I think besides being a proponent of unhealthy control and abuse, she's also full of it. She should be more concerned with her own lying than telling others all about how to "outlast" and smack their kids.

Edited June 26, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Rivka]

Did you know that you can paddle a child out of having ADHD?

 

See, I'm a child psychologist, and *I* didn't know that, but apparently my professional education has been deficient.

 

 

 

Elizabeth: First, you must seat this child right next to you while you are schooling, not across the table. Lay your paddle on the table between you and he as a visual aid. Begin like this:

Mom: Do you see this paddle?
Child: Yes.
Mom: I'm tired of reminding you not to touch, fidget, wiggle, or to rock in your chair. From now on, I'm going to use the paddle to help you remember. Do you understand me?
Child: Yes Mom.
Mom: What are some of the things I'm always telling you not to do?
Child: Playing with my eraser?
Mom: Yes. What else?
Child: Getting off my chair?
Mom: Yes. What else?
Child: Scribbling instead of doing my math?
Mom: Yes, and I'm sure you can think of a lot of other things, so I'm not going to remind you. I'm just going to use the paddle. Do you understand me?
Child: Yes.
(Two minutes later child begins rocking in his chair.)
Mom: Get up and put your hands on the table. (SWAT!) Now sit back down and go back to your work.
(Three minutes later child begins to poke his pencil through his buttonhole.)
Mom: Get up and put your hands on the table. (SWAT!) Sit down and start working.
(Five minutes later child begins tapping the table leg with his foot.)
Mom: Get up and put your hands on the table. (SWAT! SWAT!) Sit down and work.

As soon as he realizes that he controls whether or not he gets a swat, he will start improving. If he laughs, or exhibits a bad attitude, apply an "I Mean Business" spanking. Remember, this will not work if you are not being very consistent, so you MUST train yourself to notice every little thing. Decide what degree of fidgeting is acceptable, taking into consideration the personality of your child, then correct for everything that is excessive. He is probably not even aware of his excessive movements and he needs you to bring them to his attention, and insist he control them. 

 

[SKL]

Contrary kids!  I have one.  The kid that is always against anything that wasn't her idea first.  I have never "punished" her for it, but I have called her out for being "oppositional."

 

It's not the same as having their own opinion.  It's opposing, not expressing.  It gets old.  :)  Well, maybe she's destined to be a trial lawyer.

 

 

 

If I were to write a parenting book (which I'm sure nobody would read), I'd probably say most of what you do doesn't matter, so don't try too hard.  ;)  But then, I'm probably raising ungodly children ....

[SKL]

10 kids and no lies at all past toddlerhood? Never shows emotions or anger with her kids? Hmmm.

 

I don't buy it when people claim to be perfect or have the solution for everything or who claim that what they do always works for every child. I only have 2 kids and what works swimmingly with one may be lousy with the other. 10 kids who all have identical responses to one approach? Color me skeptical.

 

More likely she was oblivious to her kids' lies. And if she was posting about her anger management stuff on top of her also being human, the always stay calm thing is probably a crock too. I think besides being a proponent of unhealthy control and abuse, she's also full of it. She should be more concerned with her own lying than telling others all about how to "outlast" and smack their kids.

 

I was thinking similar.  No parent is that emotionless.  A robot, maybe.

 

Reminds me of when I as a kid and I wrote a neighborhood "newspaper."  It had a Dear Rabby column with questions and answers which I pulled out of you know where ....

 

[Tanaqui]

"A few of my toddlers tried lying once or twice, but that's it. Out of ten children, I only recall one or two instances where a post-toddler lied to me.

 

Gosh, I'd love to put this to the test, because remember what I said about not knowing if your kid is lying ? (Parents perform worse than chance, guys!) She's not the exception either.

[MegP]

I think her kids would be excellent at lying. They are used to denying their feelings and having to lie by putting on a happy face no matter what they are really feeling inside. They have to obey and pretend they want to even when they do not want to. They likely end up being very sneaky as I described in my first post.

 

The whole thing is just heartbreaking. She has duped so many moms.

[gardenmom5]

"Question: My six-year-old has a problem with talking to me about matters that bother her. When upset, instead of coming to me, she'll go sit by herself, often to pout or cry. When I approach her, she will sit with me, but won't tell me what's wrong. I can ask her, "Did you hurt yourself? Did Mommy do something that upset you? Did your sister do something to you?" But she'll only shake her head and sadly say, �No.� When I ask her what did happen, she'll either say she doesn't want to talk about it, or she will just remain silent. Eventually, she gets over it.

When this type of behavior occurs, what should I do? Should I persist in trying to find out what is wrong? Should I keep trying to convince her to discuss it with me, or should I just let it go?

 

Elizabeth: I strongly suspect that you are feeling sorry for her and perhaps feeling a little guilty yourself, thinking you might be the cause of her misery. Don�t be deceived. This sounds like self-pity and manipulation to me, which are simply derivatives of pride. I would ask her what she was pouting about and I would expect an answer. I would not accept her refusal to respond. If I really thought she wanted to tell me, but was being held back by shyness, then I might do some gentle probing, but even then, I would ultimately expect an honest answer.

 

What I sometimes do in similar situations, when a child refuses to answer me, is to have him sit quietly at the table for a while. Then I ask him again. If he is still resistant, I let him know that he won't be leaving the table until he is ready to have an honest discussion with me. I don't get angry with him, but I don't back down either. Yes, I outlast him. He must learn to set aside his pride and communicate. This is one of the most important things you can ever teach your child. It is unacceptable for a person to clam up and punish everyone with his silence. He may appear to be heartbroken over some injustice, but it�s really just a slight injury to his pride that he has turned into manipulation and vindictiveness. The longer a child holds out and gives you The Silent Treatment, the more it indicates that he arrogantly believes he has the right to act this way. I wouldn't want to deal with such a person as an adult, and I can't even imagine being married to someone like this. As always, your job is to teach godliness. Learning not to manipulate, but to humbly communicate, is an important part of godliness."

 

Oh my word. A child may not be sad publicly. They may not have privacy. They must be forced to share their innermost thoughts and feelings are be in trouble, because they need to learn that Mom & Dad will be cruel to them until they tell them their secrets. And then once they tell their secrets they must be prepared to be punished for them if they're out of line. Because after all the CHILD is arrogant for wanting to feel sad and have space. Holy moly, I don't even... that breaks my heart. TELL ME WHAT'S WRONG AND TRUST ME WITH YOUR INNERMOST THOUGHTS OR I WILL HURT YOU sure seems like *fantastic* parenting, and a great precedent to set for future relationships! [/sarc]

This makes me sick.

[Rosie_0801]

I'm more curious about how our culture became so willing to parent based on any book written by a stranger, especially when it conflicts with one's own instinct and experiences.  We trust some person who never met us or our kids, and doesn't actually care if we live or die, over people who would die for our kids.  Strange.

 

I've seen that as a result of the concept of sin. You are sinful, therefore you should not trust yourself. It would naturally follow that everyone else is too, so don't trust them either, but that's being rude to your elders and no back chat thank-you-very-much.

 

I've seen it as a result of being picked on to the point where the person can't cope with responsibility because consequences are too bloody painful.