The results of the godly tomatoes method on kids

[SeaConquest]

Another one just rolled across my newsfeed tonight:

 

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2016/06/27/the-connections-between-spanking-and-aggression/?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0

[DawnM]

I am finding this thread very interesting.  

 

It is interesting too how different personalities respond to the same garbage of an upbringing.

 

I learned some things this past weekend about my great grandfather.  He was mean.  He was a bad person.  He was probably mentally ill.   He treated his children horribly.  Some turned out very nice and gentle and others did not.  My grandmother did not.  She was my mother's mother.  She was probably mentally ill herself.  And she was mean to her children.  My mother was the oldest.  My mother wasn't all that nice herself.  She is bipolar most likely (undiagnosed), histrionic probably, at least borderline, you get the picture.  

 

She read every parenting book out there because she became a Christian later in life and was bound and determined to raise me "Christianly."  But her books were along the lines of BG type and add in probably mental illness, and you get a whole new kind of crazy.  She often said she needed to break my will, because my will was evil and of the devil and when I "acted up" (not even sure it really was acting up, I was actually a pretty good kid) she would tell me that if I died without repenting I would go to hell and I could die at any time.   There is so much more, but this thread is actually triggering some bad memories, so I think I need to not come back here.  You know that verse, "If you, who are evil, know how to love your children......"  That verse should have said, "Some of you are evil and don't know how to love your children."

 

My saving grace when it comes to the mental illness part is that I was adopted.  I am not biologically related to this woman......and I see some mental illness in a few cousins and in a few cousin's children.  

 

When I had my own children, I felt completely unable to know what to do.  I struggled emotionally with discipline and I will admit I was too harsh in the beginning, esp with my oldest.  What I didn't know then was that he had Asperger's and would never respond to things the way I expected.

 

I can remember reading the whole "cry it out" thing.  I was bound and determined NOT to go get my Aspie from his crib and let him cry it out.  Mind you, he was not a good sleeper, and didn't sleep through the night until age 4, so nighttime wake ups were a norm.

 

That kid screamed and screamed for over an hour.  I had to get up for work that next day, and after the 60 min. mark I decided I couldn't take it anymore, and went in there.  That poor guy was COVERED in diarrhea, all over the sheets, up the crib, on the wall.  He had had a complete blowout.  DH got up with me and we had to put him in the tub and change the sheets and wipe everything down at 1am.   

 

I can't even imagine what a bad parent I would have felt like had I woken in the am to that mess and making him sleep in it all night long.

 

That was the one and only time we let him "cry it out."  And that was the end of my looking to others for parenting advice.  We weren't always perfect by any means, and one bad mistake I made when they were younger was that I yelled......a lot......at them.  But I finally put an end to that too.  And apologized.  

 

There is no parenting handbook.  There are thoughts that might work for your children.  There is advice to try.  

Edited June 29, 2016 by DawnM

[FaithManor]

My understanding of the "rod" issue over years of dealing with evangelical churches is that it is referred to by most individuals as a shepherd's rod or this is what many people assume Solomon is referring to, and of course the problem with that is that if one really studies the art of shepherding, and especially the ancient art of it, one finds that shepherds don't hit their sheep with it. They may place the hook around the neck if absolutely necessary to rescue it from going further into a thicket or too near a drop off, they may place it in front of a sheep to indicate to prevent forward motion, they may use it very, very lightly as a prod to move a lamb forward, but since the lamb/sheep is valuable to the shepherd, and he/she needs the flock to trust him, he or she doesn't smack the sheep around with it.

 

So taken in the context of Jesus is the shepherd and we are his sheep, guess what, nobody is getting smacked.

 

On top of which, looking at Rabbinical teaching on the matter which has far more scholarship attached to it than modern christianity can claim for itself, the interpretation of sanctioning corporal punishment simply doesn't hold up though that won't stop the misinterpretation of the verse to continue to proliferate.

 

Ultimately it comes down to control though because emphasizing god as a punitive, lightening bold ready, angry, can't wait to punish the lousy sinner straight to eternal damnation thus you better smack your kids and do terrible things to them so they won't leave the faith kind of preaching leads to mousey, fearful, easily controlled followers. Until christianity, in particular, fundamentalism, embraces God is love, perfect love casts out all fear, Do unto others, the fruits of the spirit are.....and so forth, the fearful controlling aspect of parenting will continue to be pushed.

 

All I know is that I am ever so eternally grateful that when our youngest had sensory integration issues I listened to a very, very wise woman - a speaker within the LCMS denomination who is also a Lutheran school principal - who told me to parent the child god gave me, not the one I wished I had. To love him like Christ loved me, to look beyond his behavior and see his suffering. That right there, that advice? It saved my sanity and my kid because I felt like the worst mother in the entire universe when I couldn't get him to obey or to behave like his siblings had at that age. Once she and I had that talk, it liberated me from reacting to him to being proactive, researching what could possibly be ailing my child. Once dh and I understood the cause of his issues, we were then able to find help for him, and adjust our parenting to meet his needs. He became a new kid. It was astounding. Thankfully, we did not spank him so he didn't have to endure anything like that. But he did, until we threw all of our assumptions aside of what his real problem was, suffer totally bumbling parents who weren't meeting his needs, and making the whole thing a lot worse. I am also grateful that he doesn't have any memory of this time as he was a toddler, and is now a 16 year old amazing high school student, rocketeer, robotics engineer, sweetly dispositioned and willingly helpful, does not appear to have long term consequences for our mistakes.

 

I still have relatives tell me that him coming around could have been accomplished quickly if I'd just whipped him long enough and hard enough to make him fear me forever. Yup. Stated just exactly like that.  :banghead:  :banghead:  :banghead:  Sure because that's the kind of relationship I want with my son!  :angry:

 

Why can't each of these kids just come with their own manual???? I'd have gladly spent a few extra minutes in childbirth to have one pop on out of there with the placenta!  ;)

[DawnM]

FM,

 

Pretty sure we grew up in the same types of circles.

 

My oldest is Aspie, my mother told me that I needed to beat him.  Yup, he needed a beating.

 

She hit him once, told me to leave the room because she was spanking him.  

 

I have never again left my child alone with her.  If she is there, I am there, period, the end.  I also told her she is not to touch my children.  That didn't go over well at all and she ranted and raved for months verbally and in letters about ALL the grandparents she has known who helped raise their Grandchildren and gave advice to their children on how to raise them and how those children TOOK the advice and how I again needed my will broken because I was so rebellious.

 

I can still remember when I was 12 and I did something that she called rebellion.  It wasn't by the way, not by normal standards.  She made me sit and copy a Bible verse 25 times on a piece of paper and then recite it to her and tell her how I had been rebellious.

 

1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king.

 

To this day I tune out anytime I hear anyone refer to that verse.  She also made sure that I understood that if I continued in the behavior, the Lord would reject me.

 

If she had been my only spiritual guide, I would not be a Christian today.  

[Bluegoat]

There are more and more studies showing that spanking has life long negative consequences.

 

It's time to find a new parenting tool.

 

Most of those studies IMO are almost useless. 

[Bluegoat]

The many larger studies are not arguing that spanking leads to anything approaching societal collapse. They are documenting a connection between a form of discipline and certain outcomes. Beyond psychology, the growing body of research on how stress hormones impact gene expression is a fairly interesting topic.

 

I have a real problem with how people take a lot of the stuff about stress hormones that come from anti-spanking, or antisleep ttraining, sources.

 

I don't think there are many people who disagree that constant elevated stress hormones, or even a lot of the time and unpredictably, are bad, that it can affect behavior and brain development in the long term.

 

But when you get someone saying - look, baby/child's stress hormones are elevated after crying/spanking, so this activity will negativly impact brain development, that is not a reasonable conclusion.  This is why you get parents afraid to let their babies or toddlers cry at all, for any reason - they think the normal vagaries of life have to be smoothed over or they will have damage their kids brains.

 

Everyone will have elevated stress hormones sometimes, that is how the brain works, and we know it is actually bad to try and avoid all stress in kids or adults.  Parents disciplining kids at all, family life, disagreements, will all cause elevated stress hormones sometimes.  Sending them to events, sports, tests, meeting new people, falling off playground equipment, vaccinations, being left while mom has a shower, being in time-out, losing a privilege.  The list is endless, and some are likely more stressful than being spanked.

 

To take a few items that can cause stress and pluck them out as the be all and end all seems pretty arbitrary, and when it is logically extended it also seems to lead to a very guilt-filled, impossible parenting expectations.  If your kids have elevated stress hormones all the time, that is probably bad, but that isn't typically going to be the result of just spanking.

[Bluegoat]

I've just finished reading an article on why psychology can be wrong...it's all to do with studies that don't prove a hypothesis being put in the bottom drawer, and unconscious biases affecting the statistical manipulations around p values.

 

So, sure, there are grounds to throw some doubt on studies around the emotional harm delivered by smacking at the lower intensity end of the spectrum. 

 

I've yet to see a study demonstrating effectiveness as a parenting technique, however, particularly in the medium term. So given there are always ethical issues around causing physical pain to others, and a lack of evidence for smacking being effective over the medium to long term, it's not a compelling technique even if you don't believe it causes harm.

 

I'd imagine we're all interested in using the best parenting techniques, rather than the most unproven.

 

What I wonder about this though, is what we would see if we looked at the long-term effectivness of a lot of parenting tools.  I tend to think that statistical dats on that kind of question is only marginally useful - there are so many assumptions built in.  What does it mean for the technique to be successful, anyway, being the first one?  And lots of things are useful in a limited way, or they work for a while, or in some circumstances, with some kids.  Or it's might not work all that well, but better than something else.  Or it depends on the larger environment.

 

I tend to think a lot of the things we do to try and really directly influence behavior in the short-term are kind of stop-gaps much of the time, anyway.  Time takes care of whatever the behavior is in the long-term, but there can still be a need for short-term solutions.

[Bluegoat]

I'm not taking a position on those studies. I haven't read them. What I'm pointing out is science isn't infallible and that is hardly the first study to be retracted. They are corrected and retracted. All The Time. It just isn't covered by the media, and if you get your science from abstracts and new blurbs you aren't getting the whole picture. I made my living in science. I published in journals. I didn't think my whole career was for naught- but it isn't a cut and dry issue in th social sciences. Today's radical thought more often than we care to admit, is tomorrow's thrown out tripe. I'm not saying one way or another about spanking, I'm just saying what is pointed out here isn't showing an actual study. It's showing segments of reprinted news articles about the study. I don't die on a hill for studies I haven't read.

 

Ironically perhaps, but quite interestingly, there was a meta-study recently on how repeatable the results were in scientific studies published in reputable journals.  What they found was that, more than half the time, they aren't.  Even in the really hard sciences - physics, chemistry - a very significant proportion could not be replicated.

 

And the social sciences - they are just so very fraught in terms of coming to conclusions, especially about individual situations rather than some kind of statistical average.  And often even then only within a particular culture.  At best I think they are suggestive.

[Bluegoat]

You touch on an interesting point. I am not sure why these types of authoritarian parenting styles seem to appeal to so many conservative Christians. From a Jewish perspective, I never see this style of parenting among my Orthodox Jewish friends. Not that the Orthodox don't have some issues of their own, but I have never heard physical punishment advocated in any of the Orthodox or Conservative synagogues that I have attended. I don't even know a single Jew who spanks. What is it about conservative Christianity that makes people latch onto these methods?

 

Please forgive my ignorance of the New Testament; I am genuinely curious. I generally associate the NT with forgiveness, grace, compassion, etc. And, if it isn't some interpretation of the NT that is the source of these methods, why such a disparity between the Jewish version of the Torah and the Christian version of the OT when it comes to discipline, parenting, etc.?

 

Perhaps this would be an interesting s/o thread.   

 

It might have more to do with cultural roots than religion, per se.  You'd find, I think, some pretty wide differences in various parts of the christian community.  A lot of the really pro-spanking groups come from a very narrow set of beliefs, and often from similar cultural backgrounds.  They tend to be from communities that have a strong Calvinist streak, maybe a puritan streak, are often literalist in how they read Scripture, and also of the "I only get my Christianity from Scripture" variety.  And a lot of them are American. 

 

When I've seen other Christian groups that seem to be following the same view, they have often been very influenced by those particular kinds of groups. 

 

To some extent it is about the theology of those groups, but to a large degree it may be that certain personality types are drawn to those kinds of groups.

 

ETA: but the stuff like the Duggers do, or blanket training, I think those are actually outside the norm - they are more like a sort of cult, and I think the fact that they are "Christian" is really almost beside the point.  They exist that way because it is good for the jerks that run the organizations.

Edited June 29, 2016 by Bluegoat

[maize]

I have yet to see a study re: spanking that was able to truly differentiate between correlation and causation. The meta analysis linked above, for instance, is only actually able to demonstrate correlation. When you see that children who are spanked more are more likely to have negative life outcomes (mental health, criminality, etc.) how do you tease out whether that is because of the spanking, or whether the spanking itself was reflective of underlying characteristics of the child? It seems logical to me that children who demonstrate more challenging behavior patterns are more likely to get spanked, and certainly there are some correlations between challenging patterns (such as ADHD) in childhood and negative outcomes in adulthood. If the child was prone to negative outcomes already, did spanking have any impact at all?

 

There are a number of countries out there that have outlawed spanking, I wonder if anyone has done an analysis looking at whether the negative outcomes that we see correlated with spanking decreased after anti-spanking laws were implemented? 

 

I have done social science research, and it is simply not possible to apply rigorous scientific method with blinding and controls to long term human interaction studies.

 

My own experience and intuition tell me that human development is not well served by interactions that are demeaning, manipulative, invalidating, involve arbitrary and unpredictable use of power, are driven by anger or resentment, or that in any way deny individuality and personhood. What I don't see is that any and all use of physical force is worse than every other method of directing behavior or enforcing limits. Some direction and enforcement is I think usually necessary and healthy in the process of raising children, though I have heard an occasional parent advocate for an entirely hands off approach. At least where harm to self or others is involved there do have to be limits, and when adults are outnumbered by children we sometimes have to choose among less than ideal enforcement options. In my ideal world gentle persuasion and discussion and distraction would be the only things ever necessary, but I haven't seen a way to implement that at every point with real live children and situations.

 

If I were to give parenting advice it would be to build as many positive interactions with your children as possible, to respect them as people, to avoid unnecessary power struggles, to try to understand their perspective and validate their experience, but to not be afraid to use firm limits where needed.

Edited June 29, 2016 by maize

[LucyStoner]

I have a real problem with how people take a lot of the stuff about stress hormones that come from anti-spanking, or antisleep ttraining, sources.

 

I don't think there are many people who disagree that constant elevated stress hormones, or even a lot of the time and unpredictably, are bad, that it can affect behavior and brain development in the long term.

 

But when you get someone saying - look, baby/child's stress hormones are elevated after crying/spanking, so this activity will negativly impact brain development, that is not a reasonable conclusion. This is why you get parents afraid to let their babies or toddlers cry at all, for any reason - they think the normal vagaries of life have to be smoothed over or they will have damage their kids brains.

 

Everyone will have elevated stress hormones sometimes, that is how the brain works, and we know it is actually bad to try and avoid all stress in kids or adults. Parents disciplining kids at all, family life, disagreements, will all cause elevated stress hormones sometimes. Sending them to events, sports, tests, meeting new people, falling off playground equipment, vaccinations, being left while mom has a shower, being in time-out, losing a privilege. The list is endless, and some are likely more stressful than being spanked.

 

To take a few items that can cause stress and pluck them out as the be all and end all seems pretty arbitrary, and when it is logically extended it also seems to lead to a very guilt-filled, impossible parenting expectations. If your kids have elevated stress hormones all the time, that is probably bad, but that isn't typically going to be the result of just spanking.

Alas, your arguments here have zero to do with the research I have read and am curious about and everything to do with your perception of what you think of the topic you think I mentioned. As for the claim that spanking doesn't lead to frequently elevated stress hormones, you have zero basis to claim that. It would seem to depend on many other factors than your opinion. In short, you are arguing against a complex topic by simplifying what you think the claims are, yet those aren't the claims at hand in much of the epigenetic research being done. Edited June 29, 2016 by LucyStoner

[FaithManor]

DM, I didn't like your post because it is not "likable", ugh. However, I agree with it. 

[maize]

Alas, your arguments here have zero to do with the research I have read and am curious about and everything to do with your perception of what you think of the topic you think I mentioned. As for the claim that spamming doesn't lead to frequently elevated stress hormones, you have zero basis to claim that. It would seem to depend on many other factors than your opinion.

 

If spamming leads to elevated stress hormones I'm afraid our entire civilization is doomed  :leaving:

 

 

 

(sorry, couldn't help myself  :laugh: )

[LucyStoner]

If spamming leads to elevated stress hormones I'm afraid our entire civilization is doomed :leaving:

 

 

 

(sorry, couldn't help myself :laugh: )

;)

 

Happily we don't have to live with spam because of our spam filters, lol.

[LucyStoner]

Most of the psychological studies like these I have read around this topic (by using my library card to get around the paywall so I can read more than the abstract) researchers wonder about the genetic components. It seems fairly straightforward that perhaps rather than spanking leading to aggression problems that aggressive parents are perhaps more likely to spank AND pass on their genes for aggression. And perhaps the same for mentally ill parents or parents with their own cognition issues or low IQ.

 

That said, most of the studies (and certainly the more valuable ones) control for the factors of at risk families- spousal DV, mental health factors in the parents, serious economic stress and others.

 

I'm not arguing that every study on this is correct or replicatable. Yet there are quite a few all saying more or less the same thing and they are usually being done with a mind towards controlling for many other factors.

 

Most of the ones I've read related to epigenetics are not focused on the impact of trauma stress on the child but on the genetic components of stress that apparently can affect the child's own children. I find this interesting primarily for the factors around poverty and also on a personal level as the child of a mother who survived horrendous abuse (think abused so badly she lost most of her hearing and developed of seizure disorder from all the various blows to the head).

 

I don't think that calm light infrequent swats are the definition of abuse but at the same time I don't know many parents who spank who are actually calm about it or use it as they describe it.

 

Also "not abusive" is not the bar I set for my parenting. I'm not perfect (ha ha ha ha ha) but I'd like to reach a higher level than "well, I didn't abuse my kids on the regular".

Edited June 29, 2016 by LucyStoner

[gardenmom5]

I am finding this thread very interesting.  

 

It is interesting too how different personalities respond to the same garbage of an upbringing.

 

I learned some things this past weekend about my great grandfather.  He was mean.  He was a bad person.  He was probably mentally ill.   He treated his children horribly.  Some turned out very nice and gentle and others did not.  My grandmother did not.  She was my mother's mother.  She was probably mentally ill herself.  And she was mean to her children.  My mother was the oldest.  My mother wasn't all that nice herself.  She is bipolar most likely (undiagnosed), histrionic probably, at least borderline, you get the picture.  

 

She read every parenting book out there because she became a Christian later in life and was bound and determined to raise me "Christianly."  But her books were along the lines of BG type and add in probably mental illness, and you get a whole new kind of crazy.  She often said she needed to break my will, because my will was evil and of the devil and when I "acted up" (not even sure it really was acting up, I was actually a pretty good kid) she would tell me that if I died without repenting I would go to hell and I could die at any time.   There is so much more, but this thread is actually triggering some bad memories, so I think I need to not come back here.  You know that verse, "If you, who are evil, know how to love your children......"  That verse should have said, "Some of you are evil and don't know how to love your children."

 

My saving grace when it comes to the mental illness part is that I was adopted.  I am not biologically related to this woman......and I see some mental illness in a few cousins and in a few cousin's children.  

 

When I had my own children, I felt completely unable to know what to do.  I struggled emotionally with discipline and I will admit I was too harsh in the beginning, esp with my oldest.  What I didn't know then was that he had Asperger's and would never respond to things the way I expected.

 

I can remember reading the whole "cry it out" thing.  I was bound and determined NOT to go get my Aspie from his crib and let him cry it out.  Mind you, he was not a good sleeper, and didn't sleep through the night until age 4, so nighttime wake ups were a norm.

 

That kid screamed and screamed for over an hour.  I had to get up for work that next day, and after the 60 min. mark I decided I couldn't take it anymore, and went in there.  That poor guy was COVERED in diarrhea, all over the sheets, up the crib, on the wall.  He had had a complete blowout.  DH got up with me and we had to put him in the tub and change the sheets and wipe everything down at 1am.   

 

I can't even imagine what a bad parent I would have felt like had I woken in the am to that mess and making him sleep in it all night long.

 

That was the one and only time we let him "cry it out."  And that was the end of my looking to others for parenting advice.  We weren't always perfect by any means, and one bad mistake I made when they were younger was that I yelled......a lot......at them.  But I finally put an end to that too.  And apologized.  

 

There is no parenting handbook.  There are thoughts that might work for your children.  There is advice to try.  

it has been triggering for me too.

I recalled when I was about 20 - "setting my grandmother up", so that I could give her what she repeatedly dished out - which was cutting her down (gothard/et.al actually recommend that type of treatment for children.  it's abusive.).  when I realized what I was doing (which was *exactly* what she'd done to me on a regular basis) - I realized I did not want to be that person, and made conscious choices to not be that way. and I did have to think about it - because that is what we were taught by example.  it was ingrained!

 

my mother put me in nighttime panties long before I was ready.  I couldn't wake up - I would dream I found a bathroom before wetting my bed.  I'd call, in the early days, she'd come AND PUT A TOWEL on the puddle and go back to bed.  I'd be left to sleep in a wet bed.   eventually, she stopped coming when I called. I could be crying - and she wouldn't come "oh, I didn't hear you".  my bedroom was closer to her than my children's bedrooms are to mine and I was up in the middle of the night. . . . .though she may have been taking sleeping pills even then. . .  .

 

eta: I don't know if she heard or not.  but I know my grandmother advocated letting kids cry with the objective of sending the message to sleep through the night.  and letting a kid sleep in a wet bed teaches them if they want a dry one they have to use a bathroom.

 

I was also an aspie - and I really struggled to sleep.  I'd be wide awake in the middle of the night, and  was left to myself.  eventually I gave up calling.  mom didn't care, I was by myself. and I had to take care of myself.  I was still a preschooler, and that was the message I received.

it also meant, the message I got was if anything bad happened to me (like being molested by the teenage boy down the street) - It was a waste of my time to say anything.

 

 

Ultimately it comes down to control though because emphasizing god as a punitive, lightening bold ready, angry, can't wait to punish the lousy sinner straight to eternal damnation thus you better smack your kids and do terrible things to them so they won't leave the faith kind of preaching leads to mousey, fearful, easily controlled followers. Until christianity, in particular, fundamentalism, embraces God is love, perfect love casts out all fear, Do unto others, the fruits of the spirit are.....and so forth, the fearful controlling aspect of parenting will continue to be pushed.

 

I had little religious training when I was little - my parents  both rejected the religions in which they'd been raised.

but I sure could see that in my grandmother!  I knew little about God - but it was extremely clear grandmother (who had far far too  much influence on us.) worshiped a god (little 'g' deliberate) of death, hell, fire, brimstone, and destruction.  (and her "do what I say or god will d*mn you.")

 

granted, grandmother was a manipulative some-type of personality disorder  nasty piece . . . but my mother was broken (and we all ended up being groomed to be vulnerable to anyone who was abusive.) 

 

eta: she was all about control and stroking herself.  if things went well - she took all credit.  if things didn't work, she berated us for not doing what she said.  she was evil.

 

the only positive thing - if you can call it that - is I can see the flags, and know exactly how destructive it can be.  I appreciate goodness more because I will never take it for granted.

 

 

I have yet to see a study re: spanking that was able to truly differentiate between correlation and causation. The meta analysis linked above, for instance, is only actually able to demonstrate correlation. When you see that children who are spanked more are more likely to have negative life outcomes (mental health, criminality, etc.) how do you tease out whether that is because of the spanking, or whether the spanking itself was reflective of underlying characteristics of the child? It seems logical to me that children who demonstrate more challenging behavior patterns are more likely to get spanked, and certainly there are some correlations between challenging patterns (such as ADHD) in childhood and negative outcomes in adulthood. If the child was prone to negative outcomes already, did spanking have any impact at all?

 

 

or the personality type of the parent!  some parents are far more punitive, they never see their children doing anything "right" and would be more likely to use spanking as a first resort.

 

eta: some parents also employ manipulation and degradation - spanking is just one more of their negatives. some of those parents will seem "healthy" to outsiders and are very careful to hide reality.  kids are brainwashed into thinking what they are experiencing is normal so they wont' complain to others.

 

 

then there are more affectionate parents who might use a swat rarely, and only to emphasize a message.

 

they aren't remotely the same thing - but in studies you have to ask if they are differentiating between the two as they gather data.  many do not.

 

 

someone brought up Jesus asking in Matthew:

 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?

 

yeah. my grandmother would have offered the proverbial lump of coal.   and if she offered 'refreshment', and you accepted it, she would complain about it!  I learned to never  accept anything if she offered - and she complained about that too.

Edited June 29, 2016 by gardenmom5

[Bluegoat]

Alas, your arguments here have zero to do with the research I have read and am curious about and everything to do with your perception of what you think of the topic you think I mentioned. As for the claim that spanking doesn't lead to frequently elevated stress hormones, you have zero basis to claim that. It would seem to depend on many other factors than your opinion. In short, you are arguing against a complex topic by simplifying what you think the claims are, yet those aren't the claims at hand in much of the epigenetic research being done.

 

Perhaps we have read different research, but I don't think you need to be condescending about it.

 

Do you have some reason to think that spanking a child, say, four times a year, creates consistantly elevated stress hormones?  Or that they are different in nature than other kinds of discipline techniques that aren't seen in the same way as spanking?  Because I really have never seen anything to indicate that is the case, and I'd be inclined to say you have zero basis to claim otherwise.

[FaithManor]

Gardenmom, it is amazing you survived that grandmother of yours, and that deeply damaged mother as well.

 

I can't imagine leaving my child in a wet bed, not answering her when she begged for help. I just can't.

 

Thank God you and I were able to dig deep and parent differently than our abusers. Same here to so many survivors. It seems like despite discussions of what is spanking and what is not, what is abuse and what is not, the people here who have suffered it when on to do their best NOT to repeat the terror they endured, and that's a very, very good thing because so often the cycle goes on for generations before someone has the courage to break it.

[gardenmom5]

Gardenmom, it is amazing you survived that grandmother of yours, and that deeply damaged mother as well.

 

I can't imagine leaving my child in a wet bed, not answering her when she begged for help. I just can't.

 

Thank God you and I were able to dig deep and parent differently than our abusers. Same here to so many survivors. It seems like despite discussions of what is spanking and what is not, what is abuse and what is not, the people here who have suffered it when on to do their best NOT to repeat the terror they endured, and that's a very, very good thing because so often the cycle goes on for generations before someone has the courage to break it.

 

I sometimes marvel at that too.

 

there was some part of me that held on to the idea God is love.  my paternal grandmother, whom I rarely saw, was very religious and much more positive (though she had her own issues.). I adored my father's half-sister.  she taught at a christian girls school in india - and I only saw her every three years.  though as an adult, I noticed how condescending and patronizing she could be.

 

but I still couldn't embrace that until I had reached a point in my own growth I could tell my grandmother where to shove it. I was so rebellious.  I just didn't give her the proper subservience.  and it still took  me decades to feel deep inside, that God loves me.

 

I know how much she messed up my life.  the one sore spot still remaining being the lack of formal education.   I do have to remind myself exactly what I was dealing with as a teenager.  something most people can't even related to - and I came out on  top.

my plan had been to return to school after the kids were older.  then I had dudeling . .  an extremely demanding aspie . . . . but he is sweet. 

[Guest]

Since I've been laid up super sick in bed for three days and counting now, out of boredom today I search on Amazon for "Christian parenting books" because this thread has given me all kind of things to think about. The Tomatoes book didn't appear in the first zillion pages, so I finally searched specifically for it. I was really surprised how many stars it had in comparison to some other parenting books. It's at 3 1/2 stars. Then I looked on the "Customers who bought this also bought" section and low and behold" the first book that popped up, another I haven't heard of called "Don't Make Me Count to Three" was the top listed. It had 4 stars, and most of the 1 star reviews I read talked about the advocated spanking of 6 month olds.

 

Here's the shocker though: To Train Up a Child, by the warm and fuzzy Pearl family, was one of the top four "also purchased", but what was mind boggling is that TTUaC was ranking #104 in Christian books-Christian Living- Parenting, and then #160 in Parenting- Early Childhood. No mention of Christian specific on that list.  :eek:  :eek:  :eek:  How the heck is it that high ranked? That kind of blew my fringe Christian cult theory out the window because obviously a lot of people are buying it on Amazon. (I've been Christian my entire life and I have never heard of any of these books, nor known anyone that used them in real life.)  It's overall rank is 25,637, but that's not crazy low rank either, particularly considering all of the bad press. I mean I have personally bought several books on Amazon that were ranked far lower- like 200,000 or worse. The reviews are at least 66% 1 star, so WHY is it still selling and WHY has it sold so many copies? It's just a little baffling. I had never heard of the Pearl's until reading the Duggar books and then looking into ATI and that entire descent down the rabbit hole where I learned this is a special breed of crazy that adhere to these books to the letter, but this definitely isn't only some fringe group buying this book. The "fringe" would appear to be far further spread than I realized. I have to wonder how many people are still in ATI too.......Anyway, I know it's not Godly Tomatoes, but it seems like there is some overlap between the circles, although I haven't heard anyone here pop in as a former Pearl follower. At least plumbing line wasn't also listed on Customers Also Bought.  

[ktgrok]

I'm a Christian, and I believe I'm supposed to try to be Christlike. And I don't see Jesus smacking a baby with a ruler. How anyone can is beyond me. 

[gardenmom5]

I'm a Christian, and I believe I'm supposed to try to be Christlike. And I don't see Jesus smacking a baby with a ruler. How anyone can is beyond me. 

 

Jesus was pretty clear people shouldn't harm little ones . . . . said those who do would be better off to have a millstone hung around their neck and tossed into the sea . . . .

 

eta: the problem is -these people are so deluded by the writers, they put those writers ahead of the bible.

Edited June 29, 2016 by gardenmom5

[LucyStoner]

Perhaps we have read different research, but I don't think you need to be condescending about it.

 

Do you have some reason to think that spanking a child, say, four times a year, creates consistantly elevated stress hormones? Or that they are different in nature than other kinds of discipline techniques that aren't seen in the same way as spanking? Because I really have never seen anything to indicate that is the case, and I'd be inclined to say you have zero basis to claim otherwise.

Did I ever claim that? Imma gonna have to say no. No, I didn't. Maybe stop responding to things I never tapped out and posted. Edited June 30, 2016 by LucyStoner

[Joanne]

Since I've been laid up super sick in bed for three days and counting now, out of boredom today I search on Amazon for "Christian parenting books" because this thread has given me all kind of things to think about. The Tomatoes book didn't appear in the first zillion pages, so I finally searched specifically for it. I was really surprised how many stars it had in comparison to some other parenting books. It's at 3 1/2 stars. Then I looked on the "Customers who bought this also bought" section and low and behold" the first book that popped up, another I haven't heard of called "Don't Make Me Count to Three" was the top listed. It had 4 stars, and most of the 1 star reviews I read talked about the advocated spanking of 6 month olds.

 

Here's the shocker though: To Train Up a Child, by the warm and fuzzy Pearl family, was one of the top four "also purchased", but what was mind boggling is that TTUaC was ranking #104 in Christian books-Christian Living- Parenting, and then #160 in Parenting- Early Childhood. No mention of Christian specific on that list.  :eek:  :eek:  :eek:  How the heck is it that high ranked? That kind of blew my fringe Christian cult theory out the window because obviously a lot of people are buying it on Amazon. (I've been Christian my entire life and I have never heard of any of these books, nor known anyone that used them in real life.)  It's overall rank is 25,637, but that's not crazy low rank either, particularly considering all of the bad press. I mean I have personally bought several books on Amazon that were ranked far lower- like 200,000 or worse. The reviews are at least 66% 1 star, so WHY is it still selling and WHY has it sold so many copies? It's just a little baffling. I had never heard of the Pearl's until reading the Duggar books and then looking into ATI and that entire descent down the rabbit hole where I learned this is a special breed of crazy that adhere to these books to the letter, but this definitely isn't only some fringe group buying this book. The "fringe" would appear to be far further spread than I realized. I have to wonder how many people are still in ATI too.......Anyway, I know it's not Godly Tomatoes, but it seems like there is some overlap between the circles, although I haven't heard anyone here pop in as a former Pearl follower. At least plumbing line wasn't also listed on Customers Also Bought.  

 

True story: People buy them in bulk to give out to new couples at their church, at baby showers, etc.

 

 

[MegP]

Texasmom-the Tomatoes lady used to have a section on her website where she gave her thoughts about Pearl's parenting methods. She said she agreed with him. If anyone wants to see a link, let me know.

[maize]

Has anyone read "Shepherding a Child's Heart"? I remember that being recommended to me by a mom with kids slightly older than mine. I think I looked through it in a bookstore and decided it didn't sound like something I was interested in, it also advocated spanking and not letting children make decisions. I later observed the mom who had recommended it being rather harsh with her children, who were in fact very well behaved. 

 

Theologically, I come from a tradition which holds children to be innocent and incapable of sin so a certain brand of Christian parenting advice based on the sinful nature of children is completely foreign to me. Sin in my conception requires understanding and maturity, qualities which take time and experience to develop.

[Joanne]

I'm a Christian, and I believe I'm supposed to try to be Christlike. And I don't see Jesus smacking a baby with a ruler. How anyone can is beyond me. 

 

Another thing that baffled me when I was a Christian and teaching parenting.

 

You know the "story" about Jesus staying behind at the temple and his (earthly) family had to come back to get him? Him staying back and conversing with the Rabbis was developmentally congruent. But he inconvenienced his family. He disobeyed authority. It he is fully human, but never sinned, the only conclusion I could come to with study and prayer was that *developmentally expected behavior is not sin.*

Yet Christian parenting book after Christian parenting book (including Tripp's) talk about punishing for developmentally expected behavior. 

 

I could have slapped my baby's hand when they reached for my glasses or grabbed my hair. I could have spanked when they did something I told them not to. OR I could wait, and they'd outgrow that behavior on a developmentally expected time line.

Punishment is something parents do while we wait for the kid's impulse control to mature. But a parent's hand on the bottom doesn't impart maturity; nor does a time out chair or corner.

[Guest]

True story: People buy them in bulk to give out to new couples at their church, at baby showers, etc.

That's terrifying.

[Guest]

Has anyone read "Shepherding a Child's Heart"? I remember that being recommended to me by a mom with kids slightly older than mine. I think I looked through it in a bookstore and decided it didn't sound like something I was interested in, it also advocated spanking and not letting children make decisions. I later observed the mom who had recommended it being rather harsh with her children, who were in fact very well behaved.

 

Theologically, I come from a tradition which holds children to be innocent and incapable of sin so a certain brand of Christian parenting advice based on the sinful nature of children is completely foreign to me. Sin in my conception requires understanding and maturity, qualities which take time and experience to develop.

That was another in the Top 4 Customers Also Bought. I hadn't heard of that one so I didn't click on it. It has 4 stars and is ranked at 2392, so much higher than the Pearls. I'm seeing a trend.....

[JumpyTheFrog]

True story: People buy them in bulk to give out to new couples at their church, at baby showers, etc.

Somebody gave me a copy when my oldest was a baby.

[Tanaqui]

Jesus was pretty clear people shouldn't harm little ones . . . . said those who do would be better off to have a millstone hung around their neck and tossed into the sea . . . .

 

But those people think that the way to get the soul to heaven is to give the body hell, and lots of it. If you try to corner them on it, they go into a little loop where they say that they're not hurting their kids, they're helping them.

 

I could have slapped my baby's hand when they reached for my glasses or grabbed my hair. I could have spanked when they did something I told them not to. OR I could wait, and they'd outgrow that behavior on a developmentally expected time line.

 

I figured that rule out on kittens long before I had kids around. When kittens are a certain age, they climb up anything that stands still long enough, including your legs. You can swat them and spray them and shake your legs furiously, and they'll stop in about two weeks. Or you can wear long pants and they'll stop in... about two weeks. It's not worth the angst.

 

If I wouldn't hit a cat or dog (and I wouldn't), why would I hit a child, who is much smarter and more capable of reasoning skills than my pets are? Kittens outgrow things, puppies outgrow things, starlings (which are the brattiest creatures on the face of the planet when they're small) outgrow things - and after time, I've realized it holds true for humans as well. Kids outgrow things!

Edited June 30, 2016 by Tanaqui

[MegP]

"Some long ago when we were taught
That for whatever kind of puzzle you got
You just stick the right formula in
A solution for every fool....

 

What makes me think I could start clean slated
The hardest to learn was the least complicated..."

 

 

The least complicated thing=love your kids. Be kind. Be compassionate. Treat them like you want to be treated. Be forgiving.

 

It is not complicated but can be hard to learn for some parents. 

 

(lyrics from a song called Least Complicated by the Indigo Girls)

 

 

[MegP]

TRIGGER warning-

 

 

Oh wow. I was reading on that blog I linked to upthread and found this--

 

http://lifeofahappymom.com/blog/2011/01/19/how-to-make-a-babytoddler-stop-crying/

 

She videotaped herself using a technique that the godly tomatoes author promotes where you cover the baby's mouth when he is crying.

 

I am going to be sick.

 

ETA-she says not to use the method in public. Gee, I wonder why?

Edited June 30, 2016 by MegP

[Guest]

TRIGGER warning-

 

 

Oh wow. I was reading on that blog I linked to upthread and found this--

 

http://lifeofahappymom.com/blog/2011/01/19/how-to-make-a-babytoddler-stop-crying/

 

She videotaped herself using a technique that the godly tomatoes author promotes where you cover the baby's mouth when he is crying.

 

I am going to be sick.

 

ETA-she says not to use the method in public. Gee, I wonder why?

 

Wow. I only watched the first video. I had no desire to watch the demonstration. But her demeanor is making it hard for me to not expect a parody video. I know she isn't. But it's just her turn of phrase. It's like a bad infomercial with the Shouty Man. 

 

Do you have a child who screams at inconvenient times? Do your children often embarrass you in public? Do you sometimes wish they would just SHUT UP already? Well we can help you with that! Just try our new child suffocation method. It works swell. 

 

Then the fine print spoken quickly: suffocation may be frowned upon and for these reasons we suggest you do not try this in public. 

 

Gag. I'm not trying to make light of it- I'm trying to wrap my brain around someone sharing this advice and people giving her web traffic enough to justify continuing with her blog. I'm simply wondering how you can pimp yourself out like this on the internet and NOT have CPS called on you. Meanwhile here it seems like all you have to do is piss off a bureaucrat over homeschooling and bye-bye kids. 

[MegP]

UGH- she says on the first video that you need to be sure you WIN. She claims that this teaches the child that he can control his crying and that you are in authority over him. 

 

I hate how she says she tells her baby, "good boy!" when he stops crying. As if crying=sin and rebellion.

Edited June 30, 2016 by MegP

[8circles]

UGH- she says on the first video that you need to be sure you WIN. This teaches the child that he can control his crying and that you are in authority over him. 

 

I hate how she says she tells her baby, "good boy!" when he stops crying. As if crying=sin and rebellion.

 

So how many people are still going to say there's some good advice in this book?  

[MegP]

The video where she demonstrates is just chilling. It freaked me right out.

[lamppost]

These kinds of posts are all kinds of triggering for me. We are devout Christians and most of the other Christians we know are very punitive. I've heard GKGW and Raising Godly Tomatoes recommended at times but in my honest opinion, most Christian parenting books are so punitive and controlling that I've given up reading them. "Shepherding a Child's Heart" is recommended so much but it's just as bad. Use a "rod," spank infants and toddlers repeatedly until they obey, instant obedience, if a child is upset after you have a discipline session, spank them until they are sweet. I just don't believe it's God's heart at all for us to have that kind of punitive, adversarial relationship with our children. A good friends of mine has 7 children and she and her husband carry around a leather Rod to use on their kids whenever they disobey, talk back, etc, which just when they are around us is a lot. I just can't imagine doing that.

 

I fell into the trap with my first when she was little of harsh spanking and instant obedience and I'm still trying to heal our relationship. Go figure she's the difficult one now that has a hard time handling her emotions. But when you know better, you do better, right?

 

I linked to some very helpful books upthread and I've added them to my signature because they're really that good. Plus here's one more I've found helpful- it's tougher to get through than the others, but has been good for me to sort out how the way I was parented is affecting the way I parent now, despite my best efforts NOT to be just like my own parents.

Parenting from the Inside Out

[MegP]

So how many people are still going to say there's some good advice in this book?  

 

Sadly, too many.

Edited July 13, 2016 by MegP

[humming mom]

I found this thread trying to find a story I'd heard on a RGT message board years ago.  How is everyone's parenting going after the pandemic shut down?  I'll have to say, I did actually make a return to the staking and outlasting techniques, and it's paying off in happy campers.

[Shelydon]

Zombie thread

[Jean in Newcastle]

Trying to stir up controversy after five years? 

[Terabith]

I have to say, I've been kinda enjoying rereading this thread and seeing which posters are still with us and missing those who are not!

[DawnM]

10 hours ago, humming mom said:

I found this thread trying to find a story I'd heard on a RGT message board years ago.  How is everyone's parenting going after the pandemic shut down?  I'll have to say, I did actually make a return to the staking and outlasting techniques, and it's paying off in happy campers.

Is this your first post or are you returning as a new name?

[humming mom]

Hi, I think it's my first post? I haven't been on a message board in 5-6 years!  I was reminded of the book because my youngest needs a lot of supervision in our new neighborhood, and overall it's a great idea to keep her near me!

[BlsdMama]

14 minutes ago, humming mom said:

Hi, I think it's my first post? I haven't been on a message board in 5-6 years!  I was reminded of the book because my youngest needs a lot of supervision in our new neighborhood, and overall it's a great idea to keep her near me!

Giving the benefit of the doubt, posts like this are highly divisive.  Welcome to The Well Trained Mind though - great place for homeschooling moms. When we see old and divisive posts from 5 years ago "innocently" pop up - it is too often troublemakers trolling for drama. 😉 

[humming mom]

No drama please, I have enough of that teaching theater. Seriously, though, Covid may have forced us together enough for some rethinking of techniques. I'm interested if any staking has backfired, or if new habits have led to more harmony in the home. I think that's maybe the goal?

[pinball]

On 6/24/2016 at 5:57 PM, Quill said:

Yes, outlast. If you have to stand them in The corner 1,000 times, you do it until they submit and remain there. If you have to smack a baby's hand 1,000 until they won't touvh the books on your bookcase, you do so.

 

I still remember my SIL doing this over making her kid eat green beans. Spanking was supposed to be the motivator. It was ludicrous.

@Quill

is this the kid who just had surgery?

 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, pinball said:

@Quill

is this the kid who just had surgery?

 

No; other side of the family. The child I spoke about is an adult now. I should ask how she feels about green beans, lol! 

[Guest]

On 7/7/2021 at 6:19 PM, humming mom said:

I found this thread trying to find a story I'd heard on a RGT message board years ago.  How is everyone's parenting going after the pandemic shut down?  I'll have to say, I did actually make a return to the staking and outlasting techniques, and it's paying off in happy campers.

Welcome to WTM. I hope you find great info here, but as you will see from my posts it this thread, I am totally opposed to “outlasting” as a parenting method. I wrote these posts five years ago but I still think the same way on this subject. 

My kids are 2/3 adults now. No RGT philosophy was used to raise them - although I did think it was good to spend more time with a troubled kid, so I guess that could be seen as tomato-staking - and so far, so good.