Health care crisis in action

[Moxie]

A girlfriend needed a diagnostic laparoscopy. She went to the hospital at 5AM, had the procedure and was home by 10AM. The bill for JUST the hospital, not the doctor, not the lab, not the anesthesiologist, is $16,000. That is more than I pay annually for the large home that 7 people live in.

Wtf, America?!? When are we going to start rioting in the streets about this insanity?!?

[BarbecueMom]

It's nuts. I just got the hospital bill from DH's surgery. $100,000 (before insurance). Surgeon's bill was $124,000. Haven't seen the anesthesiologist bill yet.

[sbgrace]

It is a broken system.

 

Her insurance will write a big portion of that off for her, but it will still be ridiculous.

 

It's the uninsured who are stuck with the big bills. A lot of those will, understandably, fail to pay. So that cost will roll to others.

 

It's absolutely broken.

[Azalea]

I'm not willing to riot, but I'm ready to march, where's my sign?

[DesertBlossom]

I thought my bill was high. That's insane. A few days before DS was born I went to the hospital and checked into triage bc my blood pressure was high. It was evening and that's where I was told to go. They did a bunch of lab work, but my bp came down on it's own and I felt better so they discharged me. The hospital's bill was over $4000 for just 2-3 hours of me sitting in triage. I don't think that included the labs. Insane. I only saw the bill because they had me as uninsured when I wasn't. If I paid the bill in cash, it would have been $3k. But still. It seems so high.

Edited April 4, 2016 by DesertBlossom

[SKL]

It is a broken system.

 

Her insurance will write a big portion of that off for her, but it will still be ridiculous.

 

It's the uninsured who are stuck with the big bills. A lot of those will, understandably, fail to pay. So that cost will roll to others.

 

It's absolutely broken.

 

My sister had a similar situation.  She told them up-front that she had no way to pay, but they said don't worry, she could apply for financial assistance.  Someone later explained that they get some sort of benefit for the write-off, as if the value of the [outpatient] services really was in the 4/5 digits.

 

Problem was, then they said she wasn't eligible for the write-off because she might someday be able to pay.  (She was unemployed but looking for work.)  Eventually it did get written off, but the whole thing was just stupid.

 

Rioting in the streets won't change anything, it will just detract from intelligent people's credibility - and probably put more people in the position of needing outrageously expensive medical care.  :/

 

[shawthorne44]

Those are really fictional numbers.  

 

For example, while delivering DD at the hospital DH wandered down to the billing area shortly before we left and said, "If we paid for this with cash today, how much would it cost?"   Answer, "$1600".   I forget precisely what our out-of-pocket outlay to the hospital was, but it was that plus minus $200.   The amount they billed insurance?  $30,000.   

[eternalsummer]

Those are really fictional numbers.  

 

For example, while delivering DD at the hospital DH wandered down to the billing area shortly before we left and said, "If we paid for this with cash today, how much would it cost?"   Answer, "$1600".   I forget precisely what our out-of-pocket outlay to the hospital was, but it was that plus minus $200.   The amount they billed insurance?  $30,000.   

 

I paid for our last baby, cash.  Prenatal care and delivery was approx. $3000 (ob-gyn, normal pregnancy).  Hospital costs (just the hospital, not the doctors or anything) were $3000 - 2 days, normal delivery.  

 

These costs are pretty average from the research I did; I paid in advance.  If I had not been able to pay in advance (and hadn't qualified for charity/free care), it would have been something like $8,000 for the hospital for normal vaginal delivery and $15,000 or so for a C-section.  

 

I shopped around and found the cheapest area hospital/ob-gyn combo.  Luckily it was super near my house; many of them would have cost almost twice as much.

 

Insurance has been cheaper ($450/mo, $250 deductible, 10% copay on hospital costs) but not enormously cheaper.

[Guest]

Those are really fictional numbers.

 

For example, while delivering DD at the hospital DH wandered down to the billing area shortly before we left and said, "If we paid for this with cash today, how much would it cost?" Answer, "$1600". I forget precisely what our out-of-pocket outlay to the hospital was, but it was that plus minus $200. The amount they billed insurance? $30,000.

Those are fictional if you have decent insurance. If you have a high deductible plus a percentage, those numbers are pretty real.

[eternalsummer]

DH was bitten by a bat last year on a Friday night and went to the local ER for treatment.  The doctor came in, looked at him, said, "What happened?"  Dh said, "bitten by a bat."  Doctor said, "Where?" - looked at it, said "Yep.  Bat." and they gave DH the immunoglobulin or whatever you call it.

 

Total cost: $5000.  We have just finished paying.  Stupid bat.

 

To be fair, the immunoglobulin stuff itself was half the cost.  But still, $2500 for literally 5 minutes of care! (30 seconds from ER doc, 4.5 minutes from nurse to give immunoglobulin)

[JumpyTheFrog]

i hate how the health care industry is allowed to have all these fake prices. It's like the "regular price" on clothes and jewelry at department stores. Everyone knows all the prices are fake but they still get that zing of dopamine when they got a "great deal" with their "sale" purchases. Only in this case, the sale price is the insurance price.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Those are fictional if you have decent insurance. If you have a high deductible plus a percentage, those numbers are pretty real.

 

It has nothing to do with high deductible plans though.  It comes down to contracts between insurance companies and providers.  Sometimes the contracts suck.  They tend to suck in areas where there isn't a lot of competition.

[G5052]

Those are fictional if you have decent insurance. If you have a high deductible plus a percentage, those numbers are pretty real.

 

Or use someone out-of-network. We had a surgery like that. I told DH -- deep breath, and we'll negotiate for a payment plan. Our gut was that he was worth it.

 

When I called on the payment plan, she said to give it a few days while she checked. They wrote off 50% of the surgery fee and put us on a one-year, no-interest plan.

[BarbecueMom]

Something I'm realizing after DH's surgery is how many non-bill expenses there are that changes in health care laws might not address. We had to buy a lot of OTC items, like extra pain meds after the Rx ones were done, stool softeners (that crap's expensive... pun totally intended), pre-surgery soap, bandages, specific vitamins, and lotions or creams. There were things that weren't medically required, but made things easier, like a cane, grabber, laptop stand for work, slip-on shoes (post-surgery), better walking shoes (therapy/recovery), clothes that were easier to dress in. We bought a new bed and mattress that was easier to get in and out of than the old one on the floor that sunk to the middle. We bought and ate more convenience food. More gas driving to and from the hospital. We spent a LOT more on this stuff than our portion of the hospital and physician bills. The random Walgreens expenses alone are higher than the hospital bill. Partly great insurance, partly just so many little things that add up.

 

We had family to watch the kids, but if not we would have had to hire a sitter. I am trying to figure out if I'll have the time to mow the yard (DH is very limited in how much he can watch the toddler while I do other stuff), or we'll have to hire that out as well.

 

What I'm suspecting might be the final straw for people instead of the actual bills is the breadwinner's time off work. DH is lucky in that he can work from home at least part time until he's cleared, and has a policy that stores up full-pay time in lieu of short term disability that usually only pays 50-60%. If he had to take some unpaid time, we could manage it, but many people cannot. We had dental insurance growing up that paid 100% of cleanings, but I didn't go to a dentist until I was 16 because my mom couldn't get the time off work. Imagine what a surgery or hospitalization can do if you can't swing a few half-days or arrange child care.

 

Hospitals will work out payment plans, landlords not so much. I often wonder how this kind of stuff is handled in countries with universal health care. Do they have government-funded short-term disability pay or assistance?

[Laura Corin]

 I often wonder how this kind of stuff is handled in countries with universal health care. Do they have government-funded short-term disability pay or assistance?

 

https://www.gov.uk/statutory-sick-pay/overview

 

https://www.gov.uk/employment-support-allowance

Edited April 4, 2016 by Laura Corin

[Bluegoat]

Something I'm realizing after DH's surgery is how many non-bill expenses there are that changes in health care laws might not address. We had to buy a lot of OTC items, like extra pain meds after the Rx ones were done, stool softeners (that crap's expensive... pun totally intended), pre-surgery soap, bandages, specific vitamins, and lotions or creams. There were things that weren't medically required, but made things easier, like a cane, grabber, laptop stand for work, slip-on shoes (post-surgery), better walking shoes (therapy/recovery), clothes that were easier to dress in. We bought a new bed and mattress that was easier to get in and out of than the old one on the floor that sunk to the middle. We bought and ate more convenience food. More gas driving to and from the hospital. We spent a LOT more on this stuff than our portion of the hospital and physician bills. The random Walgreens expenses alone are higher than the hospital bill. Partly great insurance, partly just so many little things that add up.

 

We had family to watch the kids, but if not we would have had to hire a sitter. I am trying to figure out if I'll have the time to mow the yard (DH is very limited in how much he can watch the toddler while I do other stuff), or we'll have to hire that out as well.

 

What I'm suspecting might be the final straw for people instead of the actual bills is the breadwinner's time off work. DH is lucky in that he can work from home at least part time until he's cleared, and has a policy that stores up full-pay time in lieu of short term disability that usually only pays 50-60%. If he had to take some unpaid time, we could manage it, but many people cannot. We had dental insurance growing up that paid 100% of cleanings, but I didn't go to a dentist until I was 16 because my mom couldn't get the time off work. Imagine what a surgery or hospitalization can do if you can't swing a few half-days or arrange child care.

 

Hospitals will work out payment plans, landlords not so much. I often wonder how this kind of stuff is handled in countries with universal health care. Do they have government-funded short-term disability pay or assistance?

 

Well, here in Canada there are a few options.  It's fairly common for salary type jobs to have a short term illness/disability benefit, usually that in some way transfers over to a long term disability after a certain amount of time.  Also, even for wage jobs people are entitled to time off for sickness without being fired - I am not sure for how long.

 

Most people who are not self-employed pay into Employment Insurance.  It covers periods on unemployment due to job loss, sickness, seasonal work, and parental leave.  I think sickness can get up to 15 weeks of pay.  Most benefits are just over 50% of your normal pay.  So - it isn't great, but it helps.  Longer term disability is managed under the Canada Pension Plan.

[G5052]

Something I'm realizing after DH's surgery is how many non-bill expenses there are that changes in health care laws might not address. We had to buy a lot of OTC items, like extra pain meds after the Rx ones were done, stool softeners (that crap's expensive... pun totally intended), pre-surgery soap, bandages, specific vitamins, and lotions or creams. There were things that weren't medically required, but made things easier, like a cane, grabber, laptop stand for work, slip-on shoes (post-surgery), better walking shoes (therapy/recovery), clothes that were easier to dress in. We bought a new bed and mattress that was easier to get in and out of than the old one on the floor that sunk to the middle. We bought and ate more convenience food. More gas driving to and from the hospital. We spent a LOT more on this stuff than our portion of the hospital and physician bills. The random Walgreens expenses alone are higher than the hospital bill. Partly great insurance, partly just so many little things that add up.

 

We had family to watch the kids, but if not we would have had to hire a sitter. I am trying to figure out if I'll have the time to mow the yard (DH is very limited in how much he can watch the toddler while I do other stuff), or we'll have to hire that out as well.

 

What I'm suspecting might be the final straw for people instead of the actual bills is the breadwinner's time off work. DH is lucky in that he can work from home at least part time until he's cleared, and has a policy that stores up full-pay time in lieu of short term disability that usually only pays 50-60%. If he had to take some unpaid time, we could manage it, but many people cannot. We had dental insurance growing up that paid 100% of cleanings, but I didn't go to a dentist until I was 16 because my mom couldn't get the time off work. Imagine what a surgery or hospitalization can do if you can't swing a few half-days or arrange child care.

 

Hospitals will work out payment plans, landlords not so much. I often wonder how this kind of stuff is handled in countries with universal health care. Do they have government-funded short-term disability pay or assistance?

 

It's a crises that most people can't begin to grasp.

 

Even with very good insurance, our medical expenses have normally run into five figures every year for over a decade now. As you say, that includes OTC items, parking, meals, and more.

 

A family member had surgery in February and needed a piece of durable medical equipment not covered by insurance that was $400. Well, actually it's in appeal now, but I'm not optimistic. That's just one piece of equipment. No hospital bills, no surgeon, no anesthesiologist, no tests/hospitalizations/doctor visits for the complications, no PT, no gas, and no meals out when we were exhausted. Our out-of-pocket after insurance will be $5,000-10,000.

 

Then another family member had surgery in March. Less, but I'm figuring several thousand there.

 

Through all of that, I worked full-time and only took one day off total. I was able to juggle and swap. Thankfully I have a college son living at home who did some of the driving.

[MedicMom]

I got the bills today for the baby's last hospital stay. $24,000 after the contractual agreement. Since we have a high deductible with 20% after that, those numbers are very real.

I still have not gotten the ER bill, the ambulance bill for the hospital to hospital transfer, and the doctor's bill.

 

And yes. I have tried our state's children's health insurance which has no deductible or copays, but it was outrageously expensive as we did not qualify for any income based subsidies. Somewhere around $470 a month for all three kids.

 

It is absolutely a crisis.

Edited April 4, 2016 by MedicMom

[TechWife]

It is a broken system.

 

Her insurance will write a big portion of that off for her, but it will still be ridiculous.

 

It's the uninsured who are stuck with the big bills. A lot of those will, understandably, fail to pay. So that cost will roll to others.

 

It's absolutely broken.

 

Actually, it's the hospital that will write a big portion of it off. 

 

One of the things that is broken is the way that reimbursement rates are decided. If the hospital ever hopes to get an increase in the amount that they are reimbursed, they have to consistently bill more than their contracted amount. The goal is really to get all of the hospitals in a given geographical area billing approximately the same for the same services. It's really hard to do because there are a lot of differences in services and therefore costs between hospitals. 

 

Many times uninsured people can negotiate their rates down. Those who simply don't have the money to pay and don't qualify for Medicaid increase the costs for everyone. That is one reason why the states that didn't expand Medicaid under ACA are really shooting themselves in the foot, if you ask me. 

[Guest]

We had to cash pay an emergency stay with me and my youngest daughter when she was a few weeks old for a virus and dehydration. We were there a day and a half, no surgeries or anesthesia, and the bill was $34,000. They gave us a 15% discount for promptly paying and that was it.

 

If we hadn't been married my treatment would have been free because me and the kids easily qualify for Medicaid with what little I make. Even with my husband's salary we are actually a low earning family for our city because of the single income and number of dependents and the margins each month are slim when we deal with our fixed expenses. I've never been so bitterly furious in my life over the medical system as seeing how many people were just skating by paying zilch while my family picked up the tab and spent two years paying it off a credit card.

 

I could rant so deeply on the subject but it wouldn't be politically correct.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Arctic Mama

[Butter]

There are so many broken systems in this country right now...

 

When I had my hysterectomy in November, I stayed two nights at the hospital.  I was there about 52 hours total.  The total cost for everything was just over $50,000.  But, because the hospital was in-network they wrote off a huge amount.  I had already met my deductible so I only had to pay 10%.  Total cost to me: $800.  The insurance company made them write off over $40,000.

 

But, knowing how insurance companies and their usual and customary works, I know the providers have to use those inflated fictitious numbers.  I did insurance billing for a therapist office before I got married and at one point we had to raise our rates just so the insurance companies would keep the UCR the same and not reduce the amount our providers got paid.

 

It's ridiculous and a big problem for people with big deductibles or self-pay.  If I had still had the high deductible health plan I had a few years ago, I would've had to pay that whole $8,000 allowed... somehow.

[J-rap]

My husband was in the hospital for for 3 months, billed for $16,000/day.  I don't even know how that's possible, and we didn't have to pay any of it and I can't believe our insurance really did either.   I don't even know how it all played out because all I cared about at the time was that we were covered.  But it does seem really crazy.

[J-rap]

We had to cash pay an emergency stay with me and my youngest daughter when she was a few weeks old for a virus and dehydration. We were there a day and a half, no surgeries or anesthesia, and the bill was $34,000. They gave us a 15% discount for promptly paying and that was it.

 

If we hadn't been married my treatment would have been free because me and the kids easily qualify for Medicaid with what little I make. Even with my husband's salary we are actually a low earning family for our city because of the single income and number of dependents and the margins each month are slim when we deal with our fixed expenses. I've never been so bitterly furious in my life over the medical system as seeing how many people were just skating by paying zilch while my family picked up the tab and spent two years paying it off a credit card.

 

I could rant so deeply on the subject but it wouldn't be politically correct.

 

That's crazy and seems so unfair.  You had no insurance at the time?

[HRAAB]

It is crazy. My dh's minimally invasive back surgery, went to the hospital at 6am, home at 6pm, was $125,000. Our portion was $5000. I don't know exactly how much the hospital wrote off, but it was considerable.

[Guest]

That's crazy and seems so unfair. You had no insurance at the time?

Our insurance was high deductible and didn't cover this particular issue with this hospital.

[bolt.]

🇨🇦🎶God keep our land, glorious and free🎶🇨🇦

 

(Sorry for your crisis.)

Edited April 5, 2016 by bolt.

[SKL]

My mom's cancer crisis produced bills over $200K.  Thankfully my parents' insurance was so good that they didn't have to pay any of it.  Now the ACA laws have caused their insurance coverage to be significantly impaired, so who knows what the future holds.

[J-rap]

Our insurance was high deductible and didn't cover this particular issue with this hospital.

 

I'd feel infuriated too.   :crying:

[La Condessa]

I glanced at the thread title and thought, "Oh no! What health crisis is happening to Moxie's family?"

Glad it was a misread and you are all okay. :)

 

 

And yes, health care costs are insane. My littlest one had a rough start, and we have just finished paying off his medical bills. He turns two in a few weeks. The life flight bill was the massive one, though: $50,000 (which we didn't have to pay because we had signed up for the $30 membership in advance). The other bills were enough to put us well beyond the annual out-of-pocket maximum I was so grateful to discover we had!

[BlsdMama]

It is nuts. We had a miscarriage (emergency) situation in December. Out resulted in $27,000 worth of bills and I wastewater the same day. I'm very grateful, but it's a lot.

[Roadrunner]

I had to go to the out of network hospital for bad infection on Friday night once. The cost of the bill was over $7,000. I don't know ha people get write offs, but our insurance paid $2,000 and we had to cover every remaining penny out of pocket. My treatment involved one hour of antibiotics administered on a drip. I saw the doc for 5 minutes and got an additional $1000 bill from him.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Roadrunner

[G5052]

And we've also been finding out that they're outright not paying for more and more.

 

And the deductible applies only on procedures, office visits, and such that they cover. If you go out-of-network or do something that doesn't fit their definitions, you pay 100% and nothing on the deductible. I guess that you could argue that you don't want people running that up with plastic surgery and such, but what about perfectly valid medical bills?

 

On one surgery the surgeon chose to do one aspect that is FDA-approved but newer and not as widely accepted. But insurance called it "experimental." So for that part of the surgery, we are to pay 100%. We appealed it, but again, I'm not optimistic. The surgeon was very sympathetic when it was mentioned in a follow-up visit, but he felt like that approach was the one that would give the best result. It involved temporary placement of sensors in the bone to ensure good alignment during joint replacement. Who wouldn't want that? Thankfully everything else fit their criteria, just one small aspect of it wasn't covered. 

 

One family member gets four procedures twice a year at an out-of-state clinic with a nationally-ranked doctor. People come from overseas to this clinic. Insurance said one procedure twice a year. If you want more, you have to appeal. So we did multiple times, and finally insurance assigned a case manager who handles it. Every time we schedule the procedures, she handles all of the appeals and gets approval. She needs 2 months notice, but gets it done. We've invested many, many hours getting to this point. What about the people who aren't as persistent as we are? The doctor says that no way is one procedure twice a year going to do anything for the type of patients he sees.

 

So yes, good medical care requires a lot of persistence and money. Lovely!

[ksr5377]

And we've also been finding out that they're outright not paying for more and more.

 

And the deductible applies only on procedures, office visits, and such that they cover. If you go out-of-network or do something that doesn't fit their definitions, you pay 100% and nothing on the deductible. I guess that you could argue that you don't want people running that up with plastic surgery and such, but what about perfectly valid medical bills?

 

On one surgery the surgeon chose to do one aspect that is FDA-approved but newer and not as widely accepted. But insurance called it "experimental." So for that part of the surgery, we are to pay 100%. We appealed it, but again, I'm not optimistic. The surgeon was very sympathetic when it was mentioned in a follow-up visit, but he felt like that approach was the one that would give the best result. It involved temporary placement of sensors in the bone to ensure good alignment during joint replacement. Who wouldn't want that? Thankfully everything else fit their criteria, just one small aspect of it wasn't covered. 

 

One family member gets four procedures twice a year at an out-of-state clinic with a nationally-ranked doctor. People come from overseas to this clinic. Insurance said one procedure twice a year. If you want more, you have to appeal. So we did multiple times, and finally insurance assigned a case manager who handles it. Every time we schedule the procedures, she handles all of the appeals and gets approval. She needs 2 months notice, but gets it done. We've invested many, many hours getting to this point. What about the people who aren't as persistent as we are? The doctor says that no way is one procedure twice a year going to do anything for the type of patients he sees.

 

So yes, good medical care requires a lot of persistence and money. Lovely!

 

Oh my goodness, dealing with this is like a part-time job for you!

 

DS had an ambulance ride 2 weeks ago.  Thankfully everything was OK, but I'm not looking forward to that bill. 

[Guest]

It is so insane!!! No other industry is allowed to operate like this!!

 

Imagine you took your car to the mechanic. You can't ask him how much the repair will be because he honestly has no idea. He fixes it. You get his bill for a billion dollars. You get the oil changers bill for a billion dollars. You get a parking lot bill for half a billion dollars. But it is all ok because your car insurance will make them all lower their bills so you only have to pay them each a quarter of a million dollars. Unless you don't have car insurance or bad car insurance and then you call the mechanic and negotiate a lower bill. Everyone knows that, right?? The bill from the mechanic is totally fake. It is the starting point of the negotiation. In fact, the mechanic claims he is barely keeping his lights on. But his lobby is pretty swank so who knows??

That's not how any of this works!! How have we gotten to a place that it is ok in healthcare?!?

[G5052]

Oh my goodness, dealing with this is like a part-time job for you!

 

DS had an ambulance ride 2 weeks ago.  Thankfully everything was OK, but I'm not looking forward to that bill. 

 

LOL. On top of working-full time and homeschooling.

 

FWIW -- In our area, if insurance is billed and pays at least $50, you don't pay anything. If insurance pays less than that, you make up the difference. People without insurance coverage for ambulance rides pay $50. It seems to be working, from what I've told. It used to be free for everyone but like everything else, they had shortfalls that had to be made up.

 

Some ten years ago I had to hire a private ambulance. Not an emergency, but we had to get to a particular specialist within an hour at a hospital that far away. The person couldn't walk. If I had called 9-1-1, they would have gone to the local hospital and then we'd have to wait for the approvals to be transferred, which I was told would take 3-4 hours. It wasn't life-threatening, but it was scary enough that I had to make a quick decision. I ordered a $500 private ambulance. Thankfully I fought and insurance eventually paid for it. I doubt they'd do that now though.

Edited April 5, 2016 by G5052

[mominco]

My son's open heart surgery and almost 1 month of stay in 2014 co$t 1.2 million dollars!

We thankfully had good insurance but we did pay about $8000.

[Reefgazer]

Just to play devil's advocate (and I know there are some outrageous inefficiencies in the health care system):  The bells and whistles that our parents did not have access to costs bug bucks and that money needs to come from *somewhere*.  So does the bill for a collective over-reliance on meds for every. flipping. malady. Rioting would mean we would not have access to the advanced technology that we have now because no company would support the research without the possibility of hefty profit.

A girlfriend needed a diagnostic laparoscopy. She went to the hospital at 5AM, had the procedure and was home by 10AM. The bill for JUST the hospital, not the doctor, not the lab, not the anesthesiologist, is $16,000. That is more than I pay annually for the large home that 7 people live in.
Wtf, America?!? When are we going to start rioting in the streets about this insanity?!?

 

Edited April 7, 2016 by reefgazer

[G5052]

Just to play devil's advocate (and I know there are some outrageous inefficiencies in the health care system):  The bells and whistles that our parents did not have access to costs bug bucks and that money needs to come from *somewhere*.  So does the bill for a collective over-reliance on meds for every. flipping. malady. Rioting would mean we would not have access to the advanced technology that we have now because no company would support the research without the possibility of hefty profit.

 

Yes, that's very much part of it. When I was born, my father's employer (a university) didn't even provide health insurance. It was common then for some couples to "save for a baby" because you paid 100% of the bills. At that time the norm in my town was to deliver at the hospital, but in my mom's hometown, the doctor (only one in the whole county) came to your house. My aunt has told the story of the doctor also coming in the middle of the night to do a vasectomy on her father because they decided that they couldn't afford any more children, and it was shameful to do such a thing. They also paid him in cash so there would be no record, and he didn't even enter it into his books.

 

Now we have all kinds of advanced care of course.

Edited April 7, 2016 by G5052

[bolt.]

Just to play devil's advocate (and I know there are some outrageous inefficiencies in the health care system): The bells and whistles that our parents did not have access to costs bug bucks and that money needs to come from *somewhere*. So does the bill for a collective over-reliance on meds for every. flipping. malady. Rioting would mean we would not have access to the advanced technology that we have now because no company would support the research without the possibility of hefty profit.

In most places, research that is aimed at curing illnesses, saving lives, and dealing with medical conditions is considered charitable (in motive) and a scientific advancement (intellectually). It's a meaningful contribution to the world. Most people are incredibly happy to do it for normal-good-wages: particularly if they believe there is potential for success. They are funded through tax-based gov't programs and various 'foundations'. The gov't has a bit of a vested interest in funding research towards cures (or better treatments) because they pay for the current treatments.

[Bluegoat]

In most places, research that is aimed at curing illnesses, saving lives, and dealing with medical conditions is considered charitable (in motive) and a scientific advancement (intellectually). It's a meaningful contribution to the world. Most people are incredibly happy to do it for normal-good-wages: particularly if they believe there is potential for success. They are funded through tax-based gov't programs and various 'foundations'. The gov't has a bit of a vested interest in funding research towards cures (or better treatments) because they pay for the current treatments.

 

This was my thought - medical research is an area where it completely makes sense to fund it in a way besides market forces.  It is in the interests of us all to fund medical research, because it is our health.

 

Research based on market demands end up with all kinds of bizzare things, like major diseases such as malaria being underfunded while drug companies spend resources trying to come up with drugs to treat "male manopause".  That is even aside from curuption issues.

[EKS]

This article explains hospital charges well.

[TranquilMind]

A girlfriend needed a diagnostic laparoscopy. She went to the hospital at 5AM, had the procedure and was home by 10AM. The bill for JUST the hospital, not the doctor, not the lab, not the anesthesiologist, is $16,000. That is more than I pay annually for the large home that 7 people live in.

Wtf, America?!? When are we going to start rioting in the streets about this insanity?!?

That's insane.  One of our family recently had surgery and was there about the same length of time, though it was a surgery center.  Because we got a cash price up front, we paid about $3700 for the facility charge. Your post has me wondering what they charge those who use insurance.  Probably something nuts like that. 

[TranquilMind]

Just to play devil's advocate (and I know there are some outrageous inefficiencies in the health care system):  The bells and whistles that our parents did not have access to costs bug bucks and that money needs to come from *somewhere*.  So does the bill for a collective over-reliance on meds for every. flipping. malady. Rioting would mean we would not have access to the advanced technology that we have now because no company would support the research without the possibility of hefty profit.

Well, maybe Big Pharma can cough some up out of its outrageous billion dollar profits, because it certainly benefits from overreliance on meds. 

 

(Smart people avoid every medicine possible, especially the highly promoted lifestyle medicines.  I think I see a new ad every day on TV. )

[TranquilMind]

It is so insane!!! No other industry is allowed to operate like this!!

 

Imagine you took your car to the mechanic. You can't ask him how much the repair will be because he honestly has no idea. He fixes it. You get his bill for a billion dollars. You get the oil changers bill for a billion dollars. You get a parking lot bill for half a billion dollars. But it is all ok because your car insurance will make them all lower their bills so you only have to pay them each a quarter of a million dollars. Unless you don't have car insurance or bad car insurance and then you call the mechanic and negotiate a lower bill. Everyone knows that, right?? The bill from the mechanic is totally fake. It is the starting point of the negotiation. In fact, the mechanic claims he is barely keeping his lights on. But his lobby is pretty swank so who knows??

That's not how any of this works!! How have we gotten to a place that it is ok in healthcare?!?

Such a perfect analogy. 

 

There are a few doctors who have stepped out of the medical insurance merry-go-round, but you have to find them, and pay cash. 

 

Too bad they don't all revolt and we return to something normal. 

[TranquilMind]

My son's open heart surgery and almost 1 month of stay in 2014 co$t 1.2 million dollars!

We thankfully had good insurance but we did pay about $8000.

Wow.

You've got good insurance though.  We paid about $8000 on a 50K surgery and this was before it got worse a few years ago.  Now I'm sure it would be at least a third or maybe half. 

[TranquilMind]

I had to go to the out of network hospital for bad infection on Friday night once. The cost of the bill was over $7,000. I don't know ha people get write offs, but our insurance paid $2,000 and we had to cover every remaining penny out of pocket. My treatment involved one hour of antibiotics administered on a drip. I saw the doc for 5 minutes and got an additional $1000 bill from him.

That is just ridiculous. 

[TranquilMind]

Those are really fictional numbers.  

 

For example, while delivering DD at the hospital DH wandered down to the billing area shortly before we left and said, "If we paid for this with cash today, how much would it cost?"   Answer, "$1600".   I forget precisely what our out-of-pocket outlay to the hospital was, but it was that plus minus $200.   The amount they billed insurance?  $30,000.   

WOW!

 

How is that remotely acceptable?

 

We have started paying cash for everything possible, but not everyone is able to do this, so the system is also very discriminatory. 

Edited April 7, 2016 by TranquilMind

[regentrude]

 I often wonder how this kind of stuff is handled in countries with universal health care. Do they have government-funded short-term disability pay or assistance?

 

In Germany, for the first six weeks of an illness, the employer has to continue paying the employee's pay.

If the employee is ill and unable to work for longer, the health insurance company is paying what the employee would have earned had he or she not gotten ill. The person receives this for up to 72 weeks.

[TranquilMind]

In Germany, for the first six weeks of an illness, the employer has to continue paying the employee's pay.

If the employee is ill and unable to work for longer, the health insurance company is paying what the employee would have earned had he or she not gotten ill. The person receives this for up to 72 weeks.

That's really interesting, and must make recovery stress much lower. 

[regentrude]

That's really interesting, and must make recovery stress much lower. 

 

Yes.

Nobody loses their job because of illness. And nobody goes bankrupt because of medical bills.