Really struggling with my 9yo ds

[plain jane]

Hive, I am slowly going insane.  I have been trying very diligently to read aloud to my children every day as I keep hearing how wonderful it is for them and how it helps them in so many ways.  Truth be told, I am not seeing this with my son.  At all.  He is almost 10 and in grade 4.

 

He will sit and listen but it is like he tunes me out.  I can read a chapter of a book and by the middle of the chapter he often can't tell me one thing that is going on.  I don't expect detailed narrations but surely a sentence to sum up a bit of the action?  (he does WWE so he is familiar with the process).  Even chapter books that he says he enjoys, he doesn't seem to want to keep up with the action.

 

This gets frustrating because we do history aloud and when I ask the questions in SOTW or the Famous Men of Rome book we are doing, he can't answer any of them.  I have to admit that this annoys me to read for 20 min only to be met with blank stares.  He hates writing so we have agreed to do history orally and discuss it but he is barely willing to do that.  He will often wait for the older sibling to answer or will just sit there with a blank stare.  His new excuse as of the last couple weeks is, "I'm dumb" which I have told him I do not believe and that it is not the case, but it seems easier for him to just chalk it up to that and go play games than to actually try. He would rather stare out the window and drag out school work for hours than sit and listen and get things done.  We have talked and talked about how he is not dumb.  It is not always that he says this, but usually when he is frustrated or doesn't want to work on trying to figure something out.  I don't think that this is actually what he believes but it seems like the easiest thing to say, if that makes sense.

 

I have also found that he struggles a lot with vocabulary.  He is NOT one of those kids who can intuitively figure out what words in a sentence mean.  Most of the time he won't even venture a guess.  If I have to stop and ask if he knows the meaning of words, I would say in an average book that we read there is at least one word per sentence that he doesn't know.  Examples of words would be "feeble," "coerce," "ambitious."

 

He does read a fair bit to himself.  Most books are ones that I have found on homeschooling sites or on GoodReads and are recommended for kids his age. I don't think he's reading anything too difficult for his age on his own.  I do not ask him questions about what he reads on his own as I don't want to kill his tolerance or mild like of reading as he is finally starting to enjoy a good book over other things.

 

I know part of the issue could just be that he's not an auditory learner but I do think that he really chooses to tune me out a lot of the time.  I also need a way around this.  If I make him read SOTW3 to himself he will get angry and likely not enjoy it either.  I try to read historical novels aloud because again, I don't think he would enjoy reading to himself but it is like they go in one ear and out the other.  I really don't feel like his knowledge base is growing or that he has learned much during the course of this grade 4 year.

 

How do I try to improve his retention of things and also, what can I do to help his vocabulary?  I have tried books like Critical Thinking Co's vocab books but he does the work but doesn't really recall what he did and he's really no farther ahead after doing them so I stopped having him do them because I didn't want him to dislike school in general.

 

He hasn't always been this way but the closer we get to 10 years old the less he wants to work in school, the less he wants to learn, and he is basically remembering nothing.  I'm sad that we spend so much time doing things and studying things or reading about them and by the end of the week (or even the day sometimes) he doesn't recall what we did at all. :(

 

[Reefgazer]

He's playin' with 'ya.  Tell him that you think he will get more out of history if he has to write out his answers, because he doesn't seem to be able to handle history orally.  If he improves, then you know that he is just tuning you out.  This stuff has worked with my son, who is one year older and likes to play the same games with me.  Alternately, if that strikes you as too mean, stop more often, like every few pages, and have him narrate the story back to you and answer the associated questions.  Then when he gets good at that, gradually increase the pages read before narration.  OTOH, does he truly not understand the vocabulary words?  If not, I would think the bite-wise steps, above, would help, being sure to stop for comprehension.

Hive, I am slowly going insane.  I have been trying very diligently to read aloud to my children every day as I keep hearing how wonderful it is for them and how it helps them in so many ways.  Truth be told, I am not seeing this with my son.  At all.  He is almost 10 and in grade 4.

 

He will sit and listen but it is like he tunes me out.  I can read a chapter of a book and by the middle of the chapter he often can't tell me one thing that is going on.  I don't expect detailed narrations but surely a sentence to sum up a bit of the action?  (he does WWE so he is familiar with the process).  Even chapter books that he says he enjoys, he doesn't seem to want to keep up with the action.

 

This gets frustrating because we do history aloud and when I ask the questions in SOTW or the Famous Men of Rome book we are doing, he can't answer any of them.  I have to admit that this annoys me to read for 20 min only to be met with blank stares.  He hates writing so we have agreed to do history orally and discuss it but he is barely willing to do that.  He will often wait for the older sibling to answer or will just sit there with a blank stare.  His new excuse as of the last couple weeks is, "I'm dumb" which I have told him I do not believe and that it is not the case, but it seems easier for him to just chalk it up to that and go play games than to actually try. He would rather stare out the window and drag out school work for hours than sit and listen and get things done.  We have talked and talked about how he is not dumb.  It is not always that he says this, but usually when he is frustrated or doesn't want to work on trying to figure something out.  I don't think that this is actually what he believes but it seems like the easiest thing to say, if that makes sense.

 

I have also found that he struggles a lot with vocabulary.  He is NOT one of those kids who can intuitively figure out what words in a sentence mean.  Most of the time he won't even venture a guess.  If I have to stop and ask if he knows the meaning of words, I would say in an average book that we read there is at least one word per sentence that he doesn't know.  Examples of words would be "feeble," "coerce," "ambitious."

 

He does read a fair bit to himself.  Most books are ones that I have found on homeschooling sites or on GoodReads and are recommended for kids his age. I don't think he's reading anything too difficult for his age on his own.  I do not ask him questions about what he reads on his own as I don't want to kill his tolerance or mild like of reading as he is finally starting to enjoy a good book over other things.

 

I know part of the issue could just be that he's not an auditory learner but I do think that he really chooses to tune me out a lot of the time.  I also need a way around this.  If I make him read SOTW3 to himself he will get angry and likely not enjoy it either.  I try to read historical novels aloud because again, I don't think he would enjoy reading to himself but it is like they go in one ear and out the other.  I really don't feel like his knowledge base is growing or that he has learned much during the course of this grade 4 year.

 

How do I try to improve his retention of things and also, what can I do to help his vocabulary?  I have tried books like Critical Thinking Co's vocab books but he does the work but doesn't really recall what he did and he's really no farther ahead after doing them so I stopped having him do them because I didn't want him to dislike school in general.

 

He hasn't always been this way but the closer we get to 10 years old the less he wants to work in school, the less he wants to learn, and he is basically remembering nothing.  I'm sad that we spend so much time doing things and studying things or reading about them and by the end of the week (or even the day sometimes) he doesn't recall what we did at all. :(

 

Edited March 21, 2016 by reefgazer

[Jean in Newcastle]

Has he been evaluated for an auditory processing disorder?  Can he draw pictures of what is happening in the story while you read?  Both to cement what is happening, to keep him engaged and to use as a mnemonic device when he's answering questions? 

[fourisenough]

First, before assuming it is willful behavior on his part, I think I would attempt to rule-out other potential causes. The first one that comes to mind is an auditory processing disorder. I really don't know anything about this diagnosis, except that your description of your son sounds a lot like my nephew who has APD. Anyway, best of luck finding something that works for you/him.

[fourisenough]

Has he been evaluated for an auditory processing disorder?  Can he draw pictures of what is happening in the story while you read?  Both to cement what is happening, to keep him engaged and to use as a mnemonic device when he's answering questions? 

 

Ha! We must have cross-posted. Good suggestion re: drawing pictures.

[KSinNS]

He may not be able to concentrate for that long. I'm all for reading aloud, but for some kids, it's not the best way to retain information. With my kids, I've found I needed to teach them to pay attention and narrate orally. What I did in that situation was read one paragraph (or one sentence if the kid couldn't manage a paragraph) and get the kid to narrate it as best they could. I don't criticize or demand certain points, I just praise whatever they get. Once they can do that, we increase to 2 paragraphs, then 3 etc. If I'm reading to older kids, I'd then keep reading and stop at the point I think the next kid is likely to be able to narrate, and get each kid to narrate from the point the last child narrated until we finish. The younger child who is not all that focussed usually hears a summary, so hopefully gets the main points (or not). If a kid was struggling with vocabulary, I might stop after a tough word and ask if anyone can tell me what the word means (the older ones will usually chime in, letting the younger kid off the hook.) It really helps to keep this work short (maybe 10 minutes) and not necessarily have a goal, otherwise it can end up being long and painful. 

 

My older two (my second is the same age as your son) certainly appear to retain more reading themselves than from oral reading, and I just get them to read a bit and narrate the book to me. It's quicker, and less dull for them. With my oldest, who did struggle with all of this, the switch from narration from listening to narration from reading required going back to very short segments and then building up.  If they are struggling with vocab, we'll go through it together and practice looking words up, using google, or whatever your tool of choice is. 

[plain jane]

Would an auditory processing disorder show itself all the time?  When we do science he recalls the information just fine.  I do understand that kids will be more interested and pay attention to things that are more interesting to them, but at some point, they do need to try don't they?  Same for Bible stories.  We are getting into more complicated Bible stories that I know he doesn't know now and he does fine with those.

 

That is part of the reason we have not had him tested because it's not always and across the board.  But perhaps it doesn't need to be?  That I don't know.  I will look into it.

[OneStepAtATime]

Agree, this may be attitude but the attitude could very well be developing because of an auditory processing disorder.  Getting an evaluation could be a HUGE help if that is what you are dealing with.  He could have perfect hearing but have a neurological glitch in processing those sounds into something meaningful.  Since he can hear the words, he concludes he must be stupid if he cannot then answer your questions.

[almondbutterandjelly]

First of all, try reefgazer's suggestions.  If that doesn't work, maybe look up Visual Spatial Learner and see if that fits him at all.  If so, you may have to change how you do things.  What is he doing with his hands while you read?  Does he color or have little figures to play with, like Ancient Rome toobs or something:  https://www.safariltd.com/products/view/super-toobs-ancient-rome-figurines-660304 That might help.

 

For the vocabulary, my dd also is that way.  When she was in 4th grade, we used more visual resources for vocab, like https://www.superduperinc.com/products/view.aspx?pid=CRD58&s=webber-core-curriculum-vocabulary-cards-level-three#.VvBop-IrK70.  These days (9th grade), she draws a picture for every vocabulary word.

 

 

[plain jane]

Has he been evaluated for an auditory processing disorder?  Can he draw pictures of what is happening in the story while you read?  Both to cement what is happening, to keep him engaged and to use as a mnemonic device when he's answering questions? 

 

He does do that.  I tend not to have him do that when it is a more difficult passage only because I am concerned it may distract from it (and he is very easily distracted) but perhaps I have it opposite and it would help.  Thank you.  I will try this.

[OneStepAtATime]

At least with my kids, they have to be doing something physical while they listen or they can't focus on what I am reading.  They spend all their energy trying to sit still.  Nothing noisy that would drown out the words.  Just something physical to keep their hands/body busy.  Drawing tied to the words might help your child.  Also, reading a bit more slowly, emphasizing specialized vocabulary, pausing during the passage to discuss what is happening might help.

 

As for the issue not being across the board, if a child has a natural affinity for a topic, they may be able to make enough connections to process what they are hearing.  Doesn't mean there isn't a processing issue.  It is hard to know without testing but you might try the other suggestions first.

[Arcadia]

My DS10 does badly with audio only. He needs audio visual. If it is audio only, he needs to write down notes and rewind the audio to listen a few more times. He is the kid who fail the "remember three lines of verbal instruction" tests.

 

Your son could be tuning you out because he doesn't enjoy history or SOTW, or because he can't remember past the first paragraph you read so he stop listening. My kids didn't like SOTW or K12 history. They end up watching history channel and other history documentaries and writing a summary in point form for each documentary.

 

My DS10 is also very playful and as academics ramp up, he wants to slack more. We go with natural consequence of letting him fail because that works the best for this kid. When he says he is dumb for vocabulary, we gave him a few hardback dictionaries to check for meaning and usage. When he says his handwriting is ugly, we print more practice worksheets. When he says his math is too hard, he gets revision worksheets so that he is still doing math daily and building up speed. He doesn't get to play unless the minimum gets done. The daily minimum takes less than 3hrs for sit down and get it done so more than adequate free time daily for his age. He choose his own curriculum and that works for us. He just likes to see what he can get away with by procrastinating. My hubby is helpful so either of us can tomato stake him in the evenings and weekends for any unfinished work. Now he is pretending to nap while my DS11 (night owl) is happily doing his work :lol:

 

ETA:

My DS11 is a different kind of playful.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Arcadia

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

This may or may not be helpful but how about the immersion feature on kindles where the child can read at the same time as listening to professional narration? As for vocabulary, the Geronimo Stilton children's books are full of great words as well as Limony Snickets series. Homeschool Buyer's Co-op has online versions of Wordly Wise and some other interesting vocab programs for less than $40 for the year. Also, what I did was discuss and use a lot of interesting words in our daily conversions over the years whenever the opportunity arose.

[Tanaqui]

If he's saying "I'm dumb", then I don't think he's faking. Children don't usually fake that way, do they? I think it's more likely he actually believes that - and no amount of you saying "Of course you're not, sweetie!" will change the evidence he sees in front of him, which is that he can't do what you expect him to.

 

I can think of several reasons he might be having trouble listening and paying attention, some of which are more probable than others. Auditory processing disorder has been mentioned, ADHD might be another issue (in which case you can do worse than to follow OneStepAtATime's advice and give him something to fidget with as you read), any number of learning disorders....

 

And if he's having trouble with one area, that might bleed into other areas very easily, because it's safer not to put any effort in. If he puts in the effort and fails, it's proof that he's stupid. (I mean, it's not, but children often think this way. Heck, so do many adults.) If he stares out the window and ignores you, well, then he can say to himself that the whole subject is stupid and it's not really him.

 

What you've said, just to sum up, is that he has trouble focusing, his retention is not what you like it to be, he doesn't write much because he doesn't like it, and he's having some trouble gaining new vocabulary.

 

I may have mentioned this before, but I didn't get my diagnosis as autistic until adulthood, despite the fact that my parents knew about it from the time I was a baby. It wasn't their fault I didn't get diagnosed, but it is their fault they didn't discuss this with me. I had to do all the finding-out on my own. Maybe it was character building, but in the end, I really, genuinely think I would have been better off they had been more open. Because of this, I am super adamant about having children evaluated sooner rather than later. You are concerned about your child, clearly. If you're concerned, it might be time to consider formal assessment. Maybe he's perfectly normal and I'm completely being ridiculous. What a relief that would be!

 

Would an auditory processing disorder show itself all the time?  When we do science he recalls the information just fine.

 

When children are very interested and engaged in a subject, they can often compensate a lot for whatever disabilities they may have. That doesn't mean the disabilities aren't there - it just means the child is sufficiently motivated to overcome them somewhat. You can't force that sort of motivation. Not with rewards, not with punishments. (And you can see how much better those children do in all subjects in when they're accommodated so they don't need the extra motivation to do well!)

 

[Storygirl]

If he can't answer the questions and tells you he feels dumb, I don't think he is doing it on purpose. Change things up and provide help for him. Here are a few ideas:

 

*Front load the vocabulary by teaching it to him ahead of time.

 

* Read only a page or two at a time and then ask a specific question instead of asking for a narration.

 

* Allow him to read silently from his own copy of the book while you read it aloud.

 

* Do paired reading; instead of you doing all of the reading, have everyone take turns reading a page.

 

* Give him an outline with key words missing, where he fills in the key word as he hears the information read to him.

 

* Or if you have a whiteboard, write some key words or phrases on it before you begin reading. When you get to that word or concept in the reading, point to the word on the whiteboard, pause, and have one of the kids explain what it means.

 

* Make sure that you speak slowly. It's harder to process fast speech.

 

These are ways to redirect his attention to the text. Basically, break things down into smaller chunks, review more often, and provide non-auditory ways for the information to get into his brain. Whether he is tuning out because he is bored or actually has an auditory processing problem, using strategies like these to make the lessons more interactive can be helpful.

 

Problems with vocabulary definitely contribute to reading and listening comprehension. That is a key area for you to work on. If he doesn't understand what you are saying, it makes sense that he would get bored, tune out, or give up.

 

Finally, there are actually comprehension difficulties that can be learning disabilities. One of my children has Specific Learning Disability in reading comprehension. There is also such a thing as SLD listening comprehension. There are also language problems related to receptive language. You mentioned that he has trouble following the action in chapter books that you read, and you say that he reads for fun, but you don't ask him questions about that reading. The classical approach kind of assumes that children can absorb information by reading it and listening to it, but for some kids this just doesn't meet their needs. You could look into curriculum choices that teach reading comprehension skills deliberately. If it seems he really doesn't have a comprehension problem but just doesn't learn best through auditory input, you can choose materials that fit his learning style better.

 

 

 

 

[Chris in VA]

Just as an aside, I plugged in "coerce," one of the words you mentioned that he can't figure out, and my 10th grade dd said, "That's one of my vocab words."

[Junie]

Lots of good advice here.

 

I agree that busy hands might help.  I do read-alouds at lunch while I have a captive audience. :)

[Julie Smith]

Sounds like the opposite problems I had with Youngest. 

 

He could always listen to complicated things and have no trouble understanding and remembering. To this day Dh will read out loud complicated instructions to board games and Youngest is the most reliable person in remembering them and making sure the rules get applied correctly. And I mean really complicated games. (One board game Dh made an instructional video on how to play it and it was hours long)

 

But he couldn't manage to read a line of text from start to finish because he would get lost along the way. He could read to the words if I pointed to them one at a time. It took a bunch of work to get to the point where he would look at text long enough to read it. He still guesses like crazy and looks away, but he can struggle though. 

 

To give you an idea of how different his strengths where. When he was eight he could listen to, remember, and follow along perfectly with the Lord of the Ring book he was listening to. But he could not keep his attention on the following written sentence without help, "You are a good boy. You can have a cookie if you say, "cat"." He could spell perfectly, or almost perfectly ever word in that text. But he had trouble looking at the words long enough to read them. 

 

Thinking you are dumb, and not getting things isn't fun. I would have a talk with him about it and look into testing. 

 

 

[Ellie]

When people talk about how important it is to read aloud to children, I don't imagine doing history and science and whatnot. I imagine sitting warm and fuzzy together on the sofa, reading from a good book, without quizzing the children in any way to determine how much they understood, only the warm fuzzy togetherness.

[Jenn in CA]

My 8yo dd has auditory processing issues. I finally figured out, last year, she could narrate if I only read 3 sentences, and helped/prompted her with names/places. Also, consistent narration has *really* helped her and, a year later, she can do longer passages. And she enjoys listening to read-alouds a lot more than she used to. Even though she's very active, if she moves around,draws, or plays she can't listen. So I require her to just sit. But it helps and she knows it.

 

I also read with *lots* of expression, and do hand gestures and even act out parts while reading, and that helps her. I encourage her and 7yodd to act it out sometimes while I'm reading, and that helps, although the 8yo can't really do it but gets something out of watching others do it.

 

But the thing that helps the most is requiring narration every 3 sentences (longer if it's 7yodd's turn, and if I suspect 8yo wasn't listening I'll ask her to narrate her narration and that helps too). 

 

Hang in there! You can figure this out.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Jenn in CA

[Garga]

Here are some ways I've combatted that with my own son who spaces out during read-alouds.

 

In no particular order:

 

1. When we read a SOTW chapter, I draw stick figures of what's going on in the chapter. This is a lot of work for me, but a lot of fun for him.

2. When we read a SOTW chapter and I don't feel like drawing the figures, I have him sit next to me and read with his eyes as we go. If he starts looking around the room, he has to read for a few paragraphs.

3. When we read a SOTW chapter, I stop every paragraph or so and ask him what's going on.

4. When we read our Narnia books, I bought two copies of the books and he follows along in his own copy while I read aloud. If I realize he is not following along or if he can't say what's happening, then he has to do the reading aloud for a page.

 

When we do read-alouds, it is slow going. I stop a lot to make sure everyone understands what is going on. The more I do this, the more they have learned to pay attention (or else they just got older...).

[Garga]

When people talk about how important it is to read aloud to children, I don't imagine doing history and science and whatnot. I imagine sitting warm and fuzzy together on the sofa, reading from a good book, without quizzing the children in any way to determine how much they understood, only the warm fuzzy togetherness.

That's probably the traditional meaning of "read aloud" but I've learned that my boys don't learn well when they read about history or science on their own. So we read history and science aloud together. I read the history to them and we take turns with the science. I could send them off to read history and science on their own, but they wouldn't retain it as well and they wouldn't get as much out of it. We've had some very lovely conversations by reading these subjects this way and I think their education has been richer for it. :).

 

But I get what you mean about reading aloud traditionally meaning reading fictional stories together just for the fun of it. We do both. I make my son read his own copy of the Narnia books with me because those are books that we are "studying." We are doing a unit study on them and have a lot of activities based on each chapter.

 

When we are reading books purely for fun, then I don't ask if they're following along. I might make sure a long word is understood, but that's it.

[Garga]

Someone upthread said to read slowly. Yes! I read at a moderate, measured pace. When I started reading I thought I had to read superfast, but I've found that dramatic pauses or animated emphasis on certain phrases goes a loooong way to helping comprehension. No monotone! No speed reading! Get a book on cd from the library and take note of the pacing they use. (Or just listen to David Tennant on Youtube reading How to Train Your Dragon.).

 

How to Train Your Dragon:

Note the slight pause between sentences and the long pauses after titles. Pausing is good.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Garga

[SKL]

I am a terrible listener - my mind goes all over the place - but it helps me if I have something mundane to do with my hands, like work a puzzle.  Maybe you could let him doodle or work a puzzle or play solitaire while you read, and see if that helps?

 

Another thought is to read a fun fiction book instead of nonfiction.  My kids are 9, and right now I'm reading Heidi; before that it was Anne of Green Gables.  Next I'm probably going to read The Black Stallion.  One that they really enjoyed last year was Mr. Popper's Penguins.

[Ausmumof3]

Haven't read all replies. Can you try getting him to draw or model with clay what happens so you can tell if he's struggling with understanding or just verbal output?

 

Fwiw, story tapes on car are a great alternative to read alouds that give the parent a break too.

[Targhee]

Test another modality! I mean if the tough parts are him *listening* and then *summarizing* it might be that this isn't the way he learns. I have two who do incredibly well with auditory input, one who just doesn't like it much at all, and one who can hang in there as long as there is a visual or kinesthetic component. None of my school age kids are very good at summarizing, and if that was my litmus for success (and compliance) they'd all be stupid and defiant. But they aren't, they're just smart in different ways.

 

I let my kids draw, do quiet hand activities (Lego, beads, play dough, etc) during read aloud time and it helps them all to focus and pay attention better.

 

I love WTM and all that SWB has done for homeschooling, but if I could only change one thing about the book it would be to acknowledge that there is more than one way to learn and acquire skills. if we judged all animals by how well they climbed trees we'd leave out all sea life and half of land animals.

 

Try letting him read to himself, look at pictures, draw his narrations, or any of a myriad of other was of getting input and making output before you decide it is willfulness. I highly recommend Cynthia Tobias' books on learning styles and meeting them.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Targhee

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I am sorry if I am being redundant but if I recall correctly STOW's companion books have questions to help prompt a summary I believe in addition to all sorts of cools activities like coloring pages which also might help facilitate summaries. I also think the professional narration of STOW are fantastic and might be more interesting since it is Jim Weiss. A bouncy ball to sit on also might be very good. Lastly, there are some age appropriate videos on history that might be interesting to watch. For example, Discovery Education which has thousands of videos has a lot of elementary age history videos and others on almost any topic.

[Incognito]

Would it help for you to tell him what the questions are before you read (I'm thinking of SOTW)?  Then he knows what he is listening for.

 

What do you do when he does this?  I have found that when my kids are not able to answer questions (I let one question slide, but if it is more than one), we just listen to the material again.  It is probably easier for me since we use the audiobook.  I have not needed to do it too many times before they have worked a little harder to pay attention.  I don't do it as punishment, though.  I do it as - well, let's listen again closely and see where we can find the answers.

[plain jane]

Would it help for you to tell him what the questions are before you read (I'm thinking of SOTW)?  Then he knows what he is listening for.

 

What do you do when he does this?  I have found that when my kids are not able to answer questions (I let one question slide, but if it is more than one), we just listen to the material again.  It is probably easier for me since we use the audiobook.  I have not needed to do it too many times before they have worked a little harder to pay attention.  I don't do it as punishment, though.  I do it as - well, let's listen again closely and see where we can find the answers.

 

We go back and I reread the paragraph where that specific question is answered.  If he misses too many then we listen to the whole passage again.

 

I notice it with reading aloud to the kids as well, although when I think about it, it does come down to what I am reading.  Depending on how interested he is in the story he can recall things but other books (especially historical fiction) he can't seem to recall the last paragraph.  He seems to just tune out.  Maybe he is getting something from it but there is part of me that wonders why I read aloud.  I certainly would prefer to read books to myself that I would enjoy than read chapter books and be ignored.  I keep hearing it's good for them but it's discouraging to me.

 

If I am reading a novel aloud for enjoyment I don't typically stop except at difficult vocabulary words to make sure they're understanding it.  I don't expect them to narrate as I want it to be an enjoyable time but read aloud time at my house is a far cry from anything one would find on Sarah MacKenzie's blog that's for sure.  She makes it sound so great and beautiful and the kids pick up so much.  I am not seeing it with this child.

[Kiara.I]

I keep hearing it's good for them but it's discouraging to me.

 

If I am reading a novel aloud for enjoyment I don't typically stop except at difficult vocabulary words to make sure they're understanding it.  I don't expect them to narrate as I want it to be an enjoyable time but read aloud time at my house is a far cry from anything one would find on Sarah MacKenzie's blog that's for sure.  She makes it sound so great and beautiful and the kids pick up so much.  I am not seeing it with this child.

 

Alright, look.  Reading aloud to them is good for MOST kids.  I don't imagine it does a whit of good for a deaf child.

 

Not every child is created in the same mold.  They are individuals, with individual needs and strengths.  I'm not familiar with Sarah MacKenzie or her blog, but I do know that looking at a blog and then looking at your own life is a fast way to an inferiority complex!  She is not you.  Her children are not yours.  She may have excellent points to make, and those points might even fit 97% of children.  But that still will not help you if your child is in the other 3%!

 

So if what you are doing is NOT working, then stop doing it!

Maybe that means that it's only a part of what you're doing that is not working and you can change that little part and then it will work.  Or maybe it means that a major overhaul is in order and things should change quite a lot.  Who knows.

 

But really, do NOT worry that because one blogger does it one way and that's not working, that something is wrong.  Nope.  It just means that for some reason that blogger's suggestions aren't a good fit for you.  That's fine!

 

Now, if auditory retention is something you feel is an important skill in life, then you probably need to be working on it with your son.  But that means taking small, concrete steps to help him improve at it.  Or, you may want to experiment with different modalities of learning.  Or you may want to get an assessment done to see if there are some issues he's struggling with.

[Alice]

You've gotten a lot of great ideas. I'll throw something out there that is a little different.

 

I have a 9 year old 4th grader who sounds similar to yours in some ways. He doesn't have the same auditory issues but he does hate anything that he sees as formal school and want to be playing most of the time. He has areas he struggles with and his answer is to say that he's dumb or to just shut down. He doesn't like to work hard or at things that he finds difficult. He finds much of school boring. He is very different from my other two kids, who are more like me and do well with traditional learning/curriculum. 

 

About mid-year this year what we decided to do was to cut WAY back on what he was doing for school. I decided that my goal for my son was to learn to enjoy learning again or at least to not be so unhappy. I told my 9 year old that he had to do Math, Latin (because we use it for grammar as well) and Writing. He also has to read something every day. And that is all he has to do. I told him he is welcome to listen to the rest of us when we read about world studies (this year's History/Geography study as a family) and science but he doesn't have to. I also told him that in whatever free time he has he can't do electronics/technology more than he would normally be allowed to do. He can fill his time with reading, art, other projects, playing outside, etc. 

 

The other thing we did by his request was that I now give him his assignments weekly. He can then choose how much to do each day. He usually aims to work extra on one or two days so that he can have a day that is almost completely free. 

 

It has been fantastic. He still gets frustrated about Math which is his main struggle. He doesn't love school. BUT he does spend his time doing things that I would consider educational. On his own he decided that he wanted to do a country project like his brother was doing for our current area of the world (Asia). So he researched it, got books from the library, took notes and wrote a one page paper all on his own. If I had assigned that or even given him the option of doing that a month or two ago he would have hated it and it would have been a struggle. He has created his own comic books, learned to fix a bike, read more books than he ever did before and chosen to read a fair amount of non-fiction science. 

 

I'm not an unschooler by nature and we're still not really unschooling since it's not all his choice. But it has made a world of difference. Just a thought...

Edited March 22, 2016 by Alice

[Storygirl]

I just want to add that I looked very closely at SOTW before deciding that it was not the right choice for my children. The chapters were long and wordy. My kids needed something with a straightforward narrative. They did better learning about one culture at a time (Egypt, Greece, Rome), so that they could gain a big picture of what life was like for one people group. In SOTW, the chapters switched topics too often for them. I'm not saying this to bash SOTW in any way, but just to point out a few things that might make it the less than ideal choice for some.

 

In my other post, I mentioned that you might think of using a different history program with him. What is your goal for history, if you separate it from the idea of reading aloud? If you know your goal, you can decide whether SOTW will help you accomplish it.

[Ellie]

Maybe he is not an auditory learner. Maybe he needs something more concrete, something he can read for himself and do, or a more hands-on kind of learning, such as KONOS. Save reading aloud for the warm fuzzy sofa time.

[stutterfish]

I just want to add that I looked very closely at SOTW before deciding that it was not the right choice for my children. The chapters were long and wordy. My kids needed something with a straightforward narrative. They did better learning about one culture at a time (Egypt, Greece, Rome), so that they could gain a big picture of what life was like for one people group. In SOTW, the chapters switched topics too often for them. I'm not saying this to bash SOTW in any way, but just to point out a few things that might make it the less than ideal choice for some.

 

In my other post, I mentioned that you might think of using a different history program with him. What is your goal for history, if you separate it from the idea of reading aloud? If you know your goal, you can decide whether SOTW will help you accomplish it.

This.

 

We used SOTW, but we never did any of the quizzing or narration. I agree that the books are quite wordy (and in places can be a bit dull). They have quite a lot of vocab that my kids wouldn't be familiar with. The (mostly) chronological order of the books means that  there's a lot of darting around from one place/culture to another, so it's not always easy to keep track of threads between different chapters.

 

tbh, I'm not an auditory learner, so I couldn't have answered the quiz questions, or have done an oral narration on many of the chapters. I rarely remember things unless I write them down or do them :)  My dd is similar and also had issues with oral narration. I gave her modelling clay to model the characters while I read. It helped a lot. Even her sports coach has notice that she's very much a kinesthetic learner - she tends to use muscle memory to remember things, because lots of words confuse her!

 

BTW, do you do any of the activities in the accompanying activity book? For us this was the best bit of SOTW, and definitely cemented the knowledge far better than quizzing.

Edited March 23, 2016 by stutterfish

[shinyhappypeople]

If it's not working, stop doing it.  

 

I have found that, more often than not, kids want to be successful.  Yes, sometimes they have off days (or weeks) but more often than not, kids want to do well.  

 

He's probably not being lazy.  He's probably not "playing" you.  He's probably being asked to do something that is too hard for him.  So the questions become: what's the best way for him to learn the content and why is it so unusually difficult for him?

 

It may or may not be a learning glitch or ADHD or something else, but you'll only know that if you have an educational or neuropsych eval done.

 

I spent a very long time assuming my older daughter was lazy and defiant and not trying hard enough in school.  If I could tell my younger homeschool self anything it would be: assume the best about your kids.  Assume they want to succeed. 

 

[Tiramisu]

Would an auditory processing disorder show itself all the time?  When we do science he recalls the information just fine.  I do understand that kids will be more interested and pay attention to things that are more interesting to them, but at some point, they do need to try don't they?  Same for Bible stories.  We are getting into more complicated Bible stories that I know he doesn't know now and he does fine with those.

 

That is part of the reason we have not had him tested because it's not always and across the board.  But perhaps it doesn't need to be?  That I don't know.  I will look into it.

 

This is by far the most common misconception about ADHD and processing disorders, and it's what makes parents delay in getting help.

 

The symptoms of these things are very variable. Kids can usually muster their attention for things that they have more interest in. But the disorder is still there. Really. You can read it in books by specialists. It's not just me. There's a book by Halloway on ADHD, I think, and he states that he thinks ADHD is misnamed and should be called something like variable attention disorder.

 

Our vision specialist says if you want to test reading at home, have them read a book for twenty minutes. The book can't be a book they love or a book they hate. And it can't be a short reading session. They have to be able to sustain attention with something they aren't completely fascinated by.

 

And, yeah, I think you can get a label with either an auditory or visual attention problem. I have a dd with auditory processing disorder who can't sustain auditory attention easily.. She has no ADHD label. Last week I just found out another dd might get another label. Not sure if it will be a visual-perceptual label or ADHD. The neuropsychologist called to tell me that she missed how serious dd's problem was since at her first glance the attention was there, but going through the scores thoroughly, she realized dd is not able to sustain visual attention at all. 

[HS Mom in NC]

If you're talking about a read aloud that isn't related to history or science, is it something that appeals to him? For example,  I have 3 girls.  2 out of the 3 would rather rip their ears off and eat them than listen to Anne of Green Gables. So would I.  Some kids do better with plot than dialogue.  Some really like character development.  Some love descriptive language. There there are genre types: fantasy, historical fiction, science fiction, adventure, biographies, auto biographies, poetry, etc.  Have you read very different types of books to him?  Which did he respond to?
 

What does he do while you're reading?  Draw?  Color? Construction toys?  Gymnastics on mat? Origami? My kids have done all of those things and many more while being read aloud to.

[OneStepAtATime]

If you're talking about a read aloud that isn't related to history or science, is it something that appeals to him? For example,  I have 3 girls.  2 out of the 3 would rather rip their ears off and eat them than listen to Anne of Green Gables. So would I.  Some kids do better with plot than dialogue.  Some really like character development.  Some love descriptive language. There there are genre types: fantasy, historical fiction, science fiction, adventure, biographies, auto biographies, poetry, etc.  Have you read very different types of books to him?  Which did he respond to?

 

What does he do while you're reading?  Draw?  Color? Construction toys?  Gymnastics on mat? Origami? My kids have done all of those things and many more while being read aloud to.

:iagree: 

 

I liked books but I didn't really LOVE books until I started reading Science Fiction at about the age of 11.  That was the genre that got me going.

[Tiramisu]

If you're talking about a read aloud that isn't related to history or science, is it something that appeals to him? For example,  I have 3 girls.  2 out of the 3 would rather rip their ears off and eat them than listen to Anne of Green Gables. So would I.  Some kids do better with plot than dialogue.  Some really like character development.  Some love descriptive language. There there are genre types: fantasy, historical fiction, science fiction, adventure, biographies, auto biographies, poetry, etc.  Have you read very different types of books to him?  Which did he respond to?

 

What does he do while you're reading?  Draw?  Color? Construction toys?  Gymnastics on mat? Origami? My kids have done all of those things and many more while being read aloud to.

 

Our neuropsych says that dd needs to do something while working to "get her juices going." It might be painting her nails while listening to history or science or listening to music while doing math.

[OneStepAtATime]

Our neuropsych says that dd needs to do something while working to "get her juices going." It might be painting her nails while listening to history or science or listening to music while doing math.

DD needs this, too. She sketches or paints her nails or plays with the animals or something along those lines ...

[SanDiegoMom]

We choose our read alouds VERY carefully. I ditched Sotw and Human Odyssey because they weren't retaining them.  We fell in love with Oxford University Press's books and my newly turned 10 yo ds does very well with it -- IF he sits right next to me and follows along reading and listening. His twin sister does ballet, tightrope walks around the screened in porch, stands on her head... but he realized early on that he just has too many tangential ideas and needs to be reading and listening to focus solely on the history.  

 

We don't do a lot of historical fiction, unless I know its also good fiction.  There is a lot of bad historical fiction out there, and it's just not worth it. 

 

We are working on his audio skills by listening to high interest podcasts -- he enjoys the Ted Radio hour since it is short snippets with different speakers and different subjects.  We listened to our first Teaching Company course which was about subject he already knew inside and out.  And he has gotten to the point where he can listen to high interest fiction book without a problem, whereas in the beginning of third grade (also the beginning of homeschooling) he said he hated all read alouds!

 

And he has done the negative self talk when he can't focus or gets behind his sister in work. But its always just distraction -- he has a lot of interesting ideas in his head! So I always redirect him with positive self talk and we all have different strengths blah blah blah.