Too Poor to Retire and Too Young to Die

[Guest]

I don't want to shorten my life. I think it is better not to take that decision into one's own hands. That said, I think that also applies to some of the treatments to EXTEND life ... for 2-3 months, at the cost of impoverishing the family or the healthcare system. It's not like either can just print money to pay for all of this. I am speaking from personal dealing with this, so it is not from heartlessness. But honestly, when the treatment THAT US SHOWING NO BENEFIT AT SLL continues at s cost that means that the surviving spouse is concerned (with cause) that there will be nothing left for his/her rent and food and medical care--some questions have to be asked about this path. The questions and the answers are not easy. But my goodness, fantasy is not a friend in these discussions.

 

The book Being Mortal is s must-read. It forces one (or siblings) to ask important questions. And answer them.

[Laura Corin]

Well, hard to answer this.  My dad has lived on a very fixed income for awhile.  It's close to the income he will get when he retires (which is very soon).  He manages on it fine.  But for one thing he never had money so it's not a step down.  He is used to it.  I can imagine if one is used to a certain lifestyle that it is hard to go without.  He lives in a very very tiny apartment.  He has a very old car his mother gave him because she was too old to drive it anymore.  He eats at my sister's so doesn't buy much food (just gives her a bit of money for food).  So he does ok.  He always gives the kids xmas gifts and stuff.  He has enough clothing, etc.  He's doing fine.

 

My mother lives on a very low income as well.  She saves money out of her state pension (about £100 a week/$150).  She doesn't have a car, cell phone, broadband or cable.  She is lucky that her house is paid off so that now, when she has been having a health crisis, she can move to live with us for a bit, then house hunt for a small apartment to rent for the next ten years (she's 91) near me.

 

When she ends up unable to live on her own, she'll probably end up with me; if that becomes impossible, she should have enough money left for a few years in a retirement home.

[Rosie_0801]

But honestly, when the treatment THAT US SHOWING NO BENEFIT AT SLL continues at s cost that means that the surviving spouse is concerned (with cause) that there will be nothing left for his/her rent and food and medical care--some questions have to be asked about this path. The questions and the answers are not easy. But my goodness, fantasy is not a friend in these discussions.

 

No, it isn't. Mainly when I'm thinking about this stuff I think "What decisions do doctors make for *themselves?*"

[Guest]

I know this sounds terrible and Sarah Palin would probably be pretty annoyed with me but, as a nation, we need to come to terms with death. I've told the story before about my aunt dying of a stroke. Everyone knew the stroke was fatal; that point was not in question. But, she was in the ICU in the hospital for 2 weeks, getting round the clock care, and just waiting to die. That is not cheap. 50 years ago, she would have been sent home to die in her bed surrounded by her family. Now she needed to be monitored at every moment by trained professional?? We have to stop spending so much money and resources at the end of life.

[ktgrok]

I think we need to realize that people living say, around WWII could make a very decent living in a blue collar job with a stay at home wife. Wages have not kept pace with inflation, at all. It's very different now. 

[Bluegoat]

Sore subject around here too. Life could be so much easier for everyone involved if the idea of just living together wasn't akin to living under a bridge. Don't even get me started on that one.

 

Yeah, I don't really get this.  Neither my in-laws or my mom and step-dad would ever consider this, I don't think.  Maybe my MIL if she thought we really needed help.  They are all very responsible and have planned to care for their needs in their home or assisted living - which is fine if that is what they would like.

 

But - I really would not mind them living with us, and we'd get a house that would work for that if necessary.  I wouldn't even mind my crazy dad.  I totally understand some people have parents who are not nice, but I just don't get the assumption that it is bad to live with kids, to me it seems far better than many other alternatives.

 

My granddad is quite elderly now though still pretty active, and he lives in a very nice assisted living facility which takes care of most of his regular help - a nurse to help with bathing, his meals, and such.  My mom and aunt, and to a lesser extent my two uncles, still have to help him out with things a fair bit (banking for example, going to doctors appointments), as well as visiting.  THe fact that they are not very close to his building means it is much less convenient to do all of these things.

 

I really think this idea that people should all be separated - the young in schools, the elderly in residences - does not make much sense as an ideal.

[Katy]

nm

Edited July 22, 2016 by Katy

[Bluegoat]

I live in Washington. This is extremely common and it is written into my, my sister's, and my mom's living wills.

 

NOBODY wants someone to get rich off their long death. You wouldn't believe how people suffer because their children are screeching at the nurses and doctors, "JUST DO SOMETHING!!!!" I mean I get it, they are freaking out, and I don't blame them. But that's not how those decisions ought to be made.

 

Luckily for us in WA and OR you are allowed to deny treatment and just go peacefully and leave your money to your kids.

 

Otherwise, the HMOs and hospital execs would take every last penny and then some. Just to have you die more slowly. Yay, more pain, less money! But "higher survival rates". Oh, yay. Just what I always wanted to be, a statistic!

 

Why, I know someone who passed just five months ago using assisted suicide laws. We were all very grateful for the law. She was able to pay off her loans and her kids didn't have to mortgage their own futures to pay for her funeral. Took the opiates, had the wake, and that's that. Sure, it would have been nice if she could have caught the cancer earlier, but she didn't. So why prolong it?

 

I know I don't want to. And "died peacefully in her sleep" is a million times better than "died unexpectedly" [no explanation given].

 

Atr you saying that there are places in the US where you are not allowed to refuse treatment?  THat seems like a pretty basic breach of medical ethics!

 

That isn't the same thing at all as assisted suicide.  For that matter, neither is treating pain even when the dosages get pretty high and it speeds things along.  At least here in Canada those things have always been part of good medical care for end of life.

[Katy]

Atr you saying that there are places in the US where you are not allowed to refuse treatment?  THat seems like a pretty basic breach of medical ethics!

 

That isn't the same thing at all as assisted suicide.  For that matter, neither is treating pain even when the dosages get pretty high and it speeds things along.  At least here in Canada those things have always been part of good medical care for end of life.

 

No, there is no place in the USA where you are not allowed to refuse treatment.  The point of hospice is to control pain and keep the person as comfortable as possible, even if it does hasten death.

[shawthorne44]

I think we need to realize that people living say, around WWII could make a very decent living in a blue collar job with a stay at home wife. Wages have not kept pace with inflation, at all. It's very different now. 

 

I don't think it is wages that haven't kept pace, it is take home pay that haven't kept pace with inflation.  Taxes have skyrocketed.  

[Bluegoat]

This is why we decided to get serious about being debt free and finally are.  Dave Ramsey.  Start NOW. Teach your kids to live debt free from the get go.

 

My maternal grandparents (WW2 soldier and war bride) lived very frugal blue collar lives until they died in 2009 and 2011. She was a stay at home mom and he worked his way up to middle management at the gas company) and retired with more than enough to get them through comfortably.  My mom and step-dad (70 and 73 years old) live very frugal blue collar lives (he was printer for the newspaper and she worked full time as a secretary  until I was 3 then  at a flower shop starting when I was in high school) and are retired with enough to get them through comfortably.  My dad (73 years old) lives a very frugal blue collar life (he worked his way to middle management in Motorola's inventory department) and is retired with enough to get him through comfortably.  They all avoided debt like the plague except for manageable mortgages on humble homes they've lived in for many decades, they NEVER used credit cards, and they contributed to their retirement and invested conservatively all along. They didn't think paying interest was a sin, but their negative attitude toward paying interest was as close to seeing it as sinful as you get without actually going there which saved them lots of money over the long haul.

 

Their kids shared bedrooms, they always bought used cars and drove them for years and years, we rarely ate out, meals were cheap but nutritious, clothes were outlet and sale priced, wardrobes were minimalist (get a job and buy extras on your own dime, kid) no one had an expensive hobby or expensive extra curriculars, vacations were tent camping most of the time (once we went to Disneyland for a few days when I was 6) , Christmases were modest, we bought a lot of things used, etc.

 

Mom and step-dad's financial planner says most Baby Boomers made bad financial decisions (eating out too much, buying too many things, buying things without being price conscious, vacationing too much, vacationing more expensively than they could really afford, buying their kids unnecessary expensive things too often, buying too much house, buying too much car, rarely living on a budget, not taking retirement planning seriously until it was too late, etc.) and have most have debts at retirement age.  My grandparents and parents didn't have debts then and had saved and invested well even with their blue collar, one income lifestyles. 

 

We also have a culture of a social safety net. All the siblings/step-siblings have chosen to live nearby so we can help care for the grandparents and great-grandparents (my Grandmother's Alzheimer's and my grandfather's leukemia for several years, and the brother who went through a ridiculously expensive divorce and is back at mom and step-dad's with his teen daughters while he financially recovers, and the teen mom niece, and me when I was on bedrest during pregnancy with my 2nd, and my dad's heart surgery, and my step-dad's surgeries, and my mother's neurological medical condition that lasted a couple of years, and to help my nephew's mother (she and my brother were never married) through an extended hospitalization and recovery, and my husband's sister's stage 4 breast cancer.....Something that should be considered before choosing an out of town job offer.  Notice I said considered, not expected in every situation. It's not always possible, but so many people never let it enter their heads what the long term consequences to extended relatives hit by unavoidable problems might be if they take an out of town job offer they don't absolutely have to.

 

It's weird to me when people here ask, "What are you going to do after you graduate the last kid from homeschool?"  I suspect I'll be helping to care for my elderly parents and in-laws because that's the circle of life in the real world.  Is this a trick question?

 

 

 

I think we need to realize that people living say, around WWII could make a very decent living in a blue collar job with a stay at home wife. Wages have not kept pace with inflation, at all. It's very different now. 

 

I think both these posts are true.

 

I think it is true that people's expectations used to be different - I think if we look at that, it gives us some idea what might be possible, where our assumptions are off.  Looking at the boomers isn't a very good model for a life lived in many cases.  Upthread I mentioned my grandad in a very nice assisted living situation - he is well set up now.  But they never lived the high life.  He worked in the navy and civil service, an ok salary and really good pension, but they did not own a home until late in the game.  At one point they and two kids lived in a two-bedroom tiny house with a shared yard.  Vacations were in the car to visit an aunt in NYC.  My nana worked parttime sometimes for extra cash, but she also spent large amounts of time caring for her 5 kids. The house they lived in once they could but was a three bedroom one bath, for seven people.  Only one car, granddad walked about 5km to work.

 

It wasn't until middle age that they had a bit more, most of which was saved or put towards better schools for the two youngest (the oldest were leaving home by then.)  In retirement, they were actually better off, despite largely supporting one child who had disabilities.

 

On the other hand - our situation is almost the same.  We live in a slightly less expensive house down the street, and we spend on homeschooling rather than private school.  We'll probably have a good pension and dh will still be able to work for quite a while at something else while getting it.

 

But - we were both able to not have student loans as many now do, and unlike my grandparents, we have no nest-egg aside from the pension, and our area is low COL.  If we lived in a different city, my dh who is civil service would have the same pay, but we would be paying out far more for housing.

 

 

 

 

 

I

[Bluegoat]

No, there is no place in the USA where you are not allowed to refuse treatment.  The point of hospice is to control pain and keep the person as comfortable as possible, even if it does hasten death.

 

Ok, good, that is what I would have thought.

 

I know in many cases people don't make good decisions about refusing treatment, but that is not quite the same thing.

[ktgrok]

I don't think it is wages that haven't kept pace, it is take home pay that haven't kept pace with inflation.  Taxes have skyrocketed.  

 

everything I've seen says that taxes are lower now than they were back in the 40s and 50s.

 

This chart gives an idea of what things cost in the 30's, what they should cost adjusted for inflation (wages are pretty accurate) and what things actually cost (partly because of the rise of two income families). inflation-and-actual-prices.png

 

Edited February 3, 2016 by ktgrok

[Bluegoat]

everything I've seen says that taxes are lower now than they were back in the 40s and 50s.

 

This chart gives an idea of what things cost in the 30's, what they should cost adjusted for inflation (wages are pretty accurate) and what things actually cost (partly because of the rise of two income families). inflation-and-actual-prices.png

 

Although interestingly food is much cheaper than it used to be.

[Guest]

What is really going to set us back 10 years are our student loans. We will finish paying them about the time our oldest is out of college. Expensive private colleges are not worth it and our children will not go that route. And medical insurance. We've paid hundreds of thousands for medical insurance over the past 20 years. It makes me sick.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Moxie

[Bluegoat]

Your chart doesnt include property tax. My property tax doubled every 8 years, until the state capped the annual increase to app. 3%. On a starter home, I.e. 100 year old house on a lot in town, the tax is now $5k annually. Seniors voted themselves a 50% exemption. Most of them live in newer homes, built on retirement, and rent out their unimproved starters. They pay the same for a new mcmansion with acreage as does the family in a starter. The COL for a senior is dramatically different than that for a younger family.

 

Also doesnt include medical. Seniors I know are paying between 0 and 400 a month for their cadillac insurance, no copays etc. I have a high deductible as I must meet the family deductible.

 

With taxes though, it depends very much what they are paying for.  Property taxes are in manycases so high because cities are having such infrastructure issues.  Paying for many of those things individually would be either impossible or more expensive.  Not paying for them gets you lead filled water.

[TechWife]

 However, as she becomes weaker and likely bedridden, she will have to pay for her own nursing care around the clock for IV meds or changing bed pads or turning her on a regular basis to prevent bedsores or whatever else she needs medically. 

 

This has nothing to do with where she lives. Medicare doesn't pay for 24 hour home nursing care for anyone. This is also not part of outpatient hospice care. To get Medicare to pay for that level of care, one needs to be in a nursing home or a residential hospice. This is not new, it's been like that for years. 

[Carol in Cal.]

Regarding refusal of care, it's legal while you're competent, but once you are deemed incompetent, your decisions are made by your medical team and/or your designee and/or your immediate family members if there is no designee.  So when you're in extremis, you kind of lose control over the situation.

[FaithManor]

I don't want to shorten my life. I think it is better not to take that decision into one's own hands. That said, I think that also applies to some of the treatments to EXTEND life ... for 2-3 months, at the cost of impoverishing the family or the healthcare system. It's not like either can just print money to pay for all of this. I am speaking from personal dealing with this, so it is not from heartlessness. But honestly, when the treatment THAT US SHOWING NO BENEFIT AT SLL continues at s cost that means that the surviving spouse is concerned (with cause) that there will be nothing left for his/her rent and food and medical care--some questions have to be asked about this path. The questions and the answers are not easy. But my goodness, fantasy is not a friend in these discussions.

 

The book Being Mortal is s must-read. It forces one (or siblings) to ask important questions. And answer them.

Fantasy is not your friend. Good way to put it. We have an appointment with the local funeral home just to talk about costs. My parents refuse to even talk about it. They have no money for a funeral or burial, so again it will fall on us. Therefore, I do not feel guilty about doing some advance planning and having a budget/maximum in place so mom cannot try to manipulate for something more elaborate than we can reasonably afford.

[Bluegoat]

Property taxes are high to pay pensions and medical of people who work only 20-25 years, while drawing bennies for 45+.

 

Take a look at the number of exemptions.

 

The sandwich gen cant make enough to provide for the boomers and live more than subsistence.

 

Well, I think people should get pensions for the amount of work that they agreed to.  And medical care.  OUr rates here are about 1.25% of assessed value, and I can't say that I feel I am getting a raw deal.

[Supertechmom]

Well, I think people should get pensions for the amount of work that they agreed to.  And medical care.  OUr rates here are about 1.25% of assessed value, and I can't say that I feel I am getting a raw deal.

 

i agree.  But yet, social security has no problem telling me that we will not get the full amount of money we put in.  that there will not be enough social security to go around. that we must have other options cause the money wont be there.   i remind my mil every time she gets up in arms over any changes to her benefits that not making changes means more money that is forcibly taken from her son and family and less money that will come back to us ever.  there is going to be a generation that will suffer.  I'm afraid it is going to be us. Unable to collect what we put in, unable to save for retirement or have it lost to the economy crashes, all we can do is say go ahead and screw us since we are already screwed.  Maybe our kids will get a break if we go ahead and take the bullet.  The babyboomers certainly aren't going to. And given their numbers, they continue to vote in ways that protects them and continues to make it harder for us.   i have no expectations that my old age will be anything other than a daily grind.  no fancy rv, no touring, no cruises a few times a year, no travelling all around.   just the same trying to make ends meet as the early years, the middle years, the now years.......it is hopeless to think about.

[Jane in NC]

 

I know it's uncomfortable to choose hospice.  To go home or into a nursing home. But IME those were the best situations for everyone involved. I've never worked in a hospital where when a fatal diagnosis was found, hospice wasn't recommended.  Sometimes people are ready to hear that and sometimes they are not.  Even if you're not choosing assisted suicide, with some illnesses giving the amount of medication it takes to keep pain under control will hasten death.  That's not the same thing as assisted suicide, but keeping someone snowed so they feel no pain will probably mean they pass in days or weeks instead of months, just because it slows body functions.  I have no ethical problems with that.  Some nurses do.

 

 

Two issues here.  The potential hospice patient must acknowledge that it is for the best but the next of kin must as well.

 

Within my sister's extended family there was recently a situation where the patient's children could not accept the fatal diagnosis.  Doctors were recommending hospice.  The children wanted everything that could be done medically to be done--but nothing could be done in the patient's weak state!  The woman who was dying moaned in misery as the children wrung their hands.

 

Death is hard.  My mom died at home under hospice care.  She readily agreed to hospice because she did not want to be in a hospital.  (Although to be honest she was not always nice to her caregivers since she hated having someone bathe her.) 

 

Technology can be a savior--or a curse.  Too many people rely on the former.

 

[Azalea]

Clark Howard often discusses how to reduce funeral costs. http://www.clarkhoward.com/plan-for-your-funeral-in-advance-to-save-big-bucks

 

Remember not to pre-pay anything...

[Twigs]

Fantasy is not your friend. Good way to put it. We have an appointment with the local funeral home just to talk about costs. My parents refuse to even talk about it. They have no money for a funeral or burial, so again it will fall on us. Therefore, I do not feel guilty about doing some advance planning and having a budget/maximum in place so mom cannot try to manipulate for something more elaborate than we can reasonably afford.

 

:grouphug:  :grouphug:  :grouphug:

 

You might want to talk with several funeral homes to compare prices.

 

For example, I'm in DFW, and several relatives have used Davis Funeral Chapel, which is a discount funeral home. (I know this particular location will not be of help to you, but you may find a similar business in your area.) It's nothing fancy, but they get the job done. I bought my pre-need from them, so that is a little burden lifted for my family.

[Pawz4me]

i agree.  But yet, social security has no problem telling me that we will not get the full amount of money we put in.  that there will not be enough social security to go around. that we must have other options cause the money wont be there.   i remind my mil every time she gets up in arms over any changes to her benefits that not making changes means more money that is forcibly taken from her son and family and less money that will come back to us ever.  there is going to be a generation that will suffer.  I'm afraid it is going to be us. Unable to collect what we put in, unable to save for retirement or have it lost to the economy crashes, all we can do is say go ahead and screw us since we are already screwed.  Maybe our kids will get a break if we go ahead and take the bullet.  The babyboomers certainly aren't going to. And given their numbers, they continue to vote in ways that protects them and continues to make it harder for us.   i have no expectations that my old age will be anything other than a daily grind.  no fancy rv, no touring, no cruises a few times a year, no travelling all around.   just the same trying to make ends meet as the early years, the middle years, the now years.......it is hopeless to think about.

 

Ummm . . . I think it's not productive or accurate to paint the Baby Boomers with a broad brush.  It's a very wide age range.  DH and I happen to be on the tail end of it.  I assure y'all there is no generous, cushy pension waiting.  What we have is what we've saved, along with what has been matched by our employers.  I'd also guess that we're "sandwiched" just as much as anyone else posting on this thread. No "generation" has a lock on having it good or bad.  I doubt there's any "generation" that doesn't as a whole tend to vote for their own best interests, either.  Also, there are more millennials than there are Boomers. So they certainly have the numbers to control voting.

[FaithManor]

Thanks Twigs.

 

I used an online planning tool for one discount funeral home in the area, and the one my mom is seriously going to want us to use - very beautiful, Cadillac.

 

The Cadillac home is not happening. Nor is the $3500.00 casket she'll want because it is woodland themed and "daddy would have loved it."

 

The $800.00 pine box with an okay cream interior will do, or the $600.00 steel grey one with the white interior.

 

 

[Carol in Cal.]

I think it's important to learn how to enjoy a life that includes work and low pay.

There are always things that can make life more enjoyable, and they don't necessarily have to cost a lot of money.

 

Yes, saving for retirement is important, but it's also important to have a good life while doing so.  One of the things that impressed me about the stories in the OP is that there is a lot of good community and good relationships involved in those lives, even though they are marginal and on the road.  That's pretty impressive to me.  I don't agree with a lot of the choices that those people are making, but it's undeniable that there are benefits to their lifestyles that are inexpensive and intangible but have value.  Our choices are not 'have a lot of money and be happy vs. have just barely enough money and be miserable'.  We are pushed toward that POV very heavily by advertising and celebrity shows, but mostly what that does is raise up discontent.  As the wise say, comparison is the enemy of contentment. 

 

I used to know a family that seemed very rich to me.  An only child of very well off parents who owned three gorgeous houses here in CA grew up and married a well established lawyer who also dabbled in investing and owned a winery on the side.  They bought a stunning 3 story house in San Francisco, and remodeled it beautifully, and the wife went into tony interior design.  And they cried poor all the darned time, because they saw so many people who were even better off than they were.  Some people just can't ever be happy no matter what, and we don't want to be like that!

 

Edited February 3, 2016 by Carol in Cal.

[FaithManor]

Very true, Carol! I have a brother in law that has had a wonderful life and a lovely retirement, but still cries foul because he thinks his friends have more. He is nevet happy. Thus the rallying moans of a life centered around consumerism only.

[idnib]

Clark Howard often discusses how to reduce funeral costs. http://www.clarkhoward.com/plan-for-your-funeral-in-advance-to-save-big-bucks

 

Remember not to pre-pay anything...

 

Speaking of group buying...

 

My parents' mosque, having to deal with not having enough cemeteries that could hold Islamic-style burials in the 1980s, bought a large section of a cemetery and got a good deal on the plots en masse. (They wanted to bury people facing Mecca, for example, and without coffins or cement liners.) They then sold the plots to individuals/families for more than they bought them for, as a sort of fundraising venture for the mosque, but for less than they would have cost individually.

 

Perhaps people who are active in religious organizations might want to look into a group buy. I think it makes it easier on people when they also feel they are helping their religious organization raise funds as a group, not just focusing on their individual mortality. It worked out really well and I think many children of those people, including me, are relieved to know that we know exactly where my parents plan to be buried and that it's paid for. Of course there will be other expenses, but it's nice to know this is handled.

 

As an aside, they purchased 4 plots, so they included me and my brother. I think they may have been in some denial we would grow up, get married, and move away! But I like having those 2 extra plots available so we can donate them if needed.

Edited February 3, 2016 by idnib

[Laurel-in-CA]

Fantasy is not your friend. Good way to put it. We have an appointment with the local funeral home just to talk about costs. My parents refuse to even talk about it. They have no money for a funeral or burial, so again it will fall on us. Therefore, I do not feel guilty about doing some advance planning and having a budget/maximum in place so mom cannot try to manipulate for something more elaborate than we can reasonably afford.

 

My dad died of cancer. We, the kids, were so blessed that he and mom had planned everything ahead of time. As a vet, he was buried in a national cemetary; we just had to get him there. My mom was buried with him when her time came.

 

For both of them, I think medical care decisions extended the difficulty of their death. My dad had a radiation treatment that caused great pain (mouth ulcerations, etc.) but didn't really extend his time, only made it more difficult. I don't think they really understood at the time that it wouldn't HELP and felt obligated to keep trying. My mom had many medical complications, long-term chronic problems, but after her first heart attack they put in a stent. Just recovering from that was very hard on her and when she had to have a second procedure a few months later to clear the stent, that was pretty much the final straw. She spent the last few years of her life, first in an assisted living facility until the extra care grew to expensive, and then in a family care home--living with a family that had adapted their house for senior care. She loved those folks and they loved her. Along with my sister, they were there with her when she died. It is a blessed calling.

 

BUT they were both savers, paid for all their own expenses, and have left us enough to supplement our kids' college costs. We were very much blessed by that legacy that will continue on to the next generation. Thrift is a virtue we have tried to teach and model for our kids, and so far they are pretty much in tune with that approach to life. Unfortunately, so far only the 19yo works someplace that offers 401K savings. The 23yo has two p/t jobs and is spending all her savings keeping her car running. This needs to end soon! The 21y should finish his BA next year and we are praying for a good, solid job for him. I told him we'll probably end up living with him in our old age...he'll count the food on the table, though!!

[Tsuga]

No, it isn't. Mainly when I'm thinking about this stuff I think "What decisions do doctors make for *themselves?*"

And the scariest thought is that they might be covering their own butts because our litigious society has led them to believe that they cannot exercise compassionate judgment without risking their entire future. No mistakes allowed, no disagreements. I do not envy them at all.

[Tsuga]

Ummm . . . I think it's not productive or accurate to paint the Baby Boomers with a broad brush. It's a very wide age range. DH and I happen to be on the tail end of it. I assure y'all there is no generous, cushy pension waiting. What we have is what we've saved, along with what has been matched by our employers. I'd also guess that we're "sandwiched" just as much as anyone else posting on this thread. No "generation" has a lock on having it good or bad. I doubt there's any "generation" that doesn't as a whole tend to vote for their own best interests, either. Also, there are more millennials than there are Boomers. So they certainly have the numbers to control voting.

I think Baby Boomers have only begun to retire and even if that is the generation that depletes Social Security, it will not be due to high payouts, but a large number of people getting measly payouts and lack of a middle class paying in.

 

The Boomers however are not sandwiched quite as much, because their parents died younger, and Boomers actually have a retirement expectation whereas I can assure you I don't know anyone under 45 who believes they will retire. The expectation is that you work until you die, men and women, at least among people I know.

 

So I think that is where the feeling is coming from that Boomers don't get it though it is clearly not just one generation. It is really that people are even thinking of retiring.

 

Though frankly, in my experience, only the men retire.

 

The women had babies and have to work longer.

[tammyw]

I'm curious what you all think about a 70 year old parent who made VERY poor decisions, had everything handed to them (wonderful education paid for, many expenses paid for in adulthood including upgrades to a house, european vacations, cash whenever asked, very generous inheritance, etc.), had the opportunity to have SO much, wouldn't listen to others who tried to advise, and because of those very poor decisions, then ended up with nothing, aside from an (early taken) pension, and having to continue working at 70.

[HS Mom in NC]

I know this sounds terrible and Sarah Palin would probably be pretty annoyed with me but, as a nation, we need to come to terms with death. I've told the story before about my aunt dying of a stroke. Everyone knew the stroke was fatal; that point was not in question. But, she was in the ICU in the hospital for 2 weeks, getting round the clock care, and just waiting to die. That is not cheap. 50 years ago, she would have been sent home to die in her bed surrounded by her family. Now she needed to be monitored at every moment by trained professional?? We have to stop spending so much money and resources at the end of life.

 

We have provisions for that.  Here it's a legal document called a DNR (do not resuscitate) and you can specify while you're perfectly healthy what kinds of intervention you want and what kinds you don't should something major happen so your wishes are obeyed.  My grandparents had them, my parents have them and my in-laws have them.  The problem is people not getting them done beforehand and then putting the burden of decision making on people who have no idea what they want, so they have to do everything humanly possible just in case that's what patient wants.

 

[Ravin]

This sure is a depressing thread to read while my mother is spending most of her super on my legal fees. 

 

Your mother's first priority is her grandchild. Which is not a bad thing to have as a priority.

[HS Mom in NC]

I'm curious what you all think about a 70 year old parent who made VERY poor decisions, had everything handed to them (wonderful education paid for, many expenses paid for in adulthood including upgrades to a house, european vacations, cash whenever asked, very generous inheritance, etc.), had the opportunity to have SO much, wouldn't listen to others who tried to advise, and because of those very poor decisions, then ended up with nothing, aside from an (early taken) pension, and having to continue working at 70.

 

I'm fine with them still working at 70 if they're still mentally and physically capable of it. Life is full of consequences and working at 70 isn't inherently bad in and of itself. 

 

I think everyone should be doing something as long as they physically and mentally can do something. Whether it's paid work or not doesn't really matter. People still active and engaged in something or some things on a regular basis tend to be much happier and healthier elderly people than those who don't. National Geographic has done studies on centenarians and who reports being the happiest in their Blue Zones research,   http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_0_10?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=blue+zones&sprefix=Blue+Zones%2Caps%2C241 and it isn't old people sitting watching TV, playing bingo and crabbing about what's wrong with the country.  It's people who have mental, physical and social stimulation ongoing. Also, it's people who don't eat crap all the time. 

 

Edited February 3, 2016 by Homeschool Mom in AZ

[goldberry]

This has nothing to do with where she lives. Medicare doesn't pay for 24 hour home nursing care for anyone. This is also not part of outpatient hospice care. To get Medicare to pay for that level of care, one needs to be in a nursing home or a residential hospice. This is not new, it's been like that for years. 

 

 

I find it ironic Medicare is reimbursing for end of life planning when they won't cover end of life care. My MIL is on hospice in TX. She lives in an assisted living facility. We have discovered that medicare no longer covers end of life care unless the person is at home or in a nursing home. Medicare will cover an aide several times a week, a nurse daily if needed, meds to be comfortable, and DME. However, as she becomes weaker and likely bedridden, she will have to pay for her own nursing care around the clock for IV meds or changing bed pads or turning her on a regular basis to prevent bedsores or whatever else she needs medically. 

 

I'm not sure I understand what is being said here. My brother was on hospice in a facility and everything was paid for.  Are you talking about the status of the facility, assisted living vs nursing home?

[goldberry]

 

My sil is a nurse in WA, where physician assisted suicide is legal. Some of the hospice companies are known for how quickly their patients pass away. She told me, "Their patients were medicated till they died" (i.e. overmedicated.) Some patients choose those specific hospice companies based on that info because they want to pass away quickly.

 

 

 

Even if you're not choosing assisted suicide, with some illnesses giving the amount of medication it takes to keep pain under control will hasten death.  That's not the same thing as assisted suicide, but keeping someone snowed so they feel no pain will probably mean they pass in days or weeks instead of months, just because it slows body functions.  I have no ethical problems with that.  Some nurses do.

 

 

 

Katy is 100% correct.  I don't consider it "overmedicated" to keep the pain under control and the patient comfortable.  Yes, it will suppress body functions as a side effect.  So be it.  The primary goal is not to die, but to not be in pain.  It would be selfish to me to ask a loved one to stay in pain just  to get a few extra weeks out of them.

[TechWife]

I'm not sure I understand what is being said here. My brother was on hospice in a facility and everything was paid for. Are you talking about the status of the facility, assisted living vs nursing home?

Yes. There's a difference between the level of services provided. Someone who needs the type of intense care that was described would need to be in a nursing home or a hospice facility if they want Medicare to pay for it. Medicare does not pay for 24 hour care in a private home. An assisted living facility is considered to be a private home for the purposes of determining Medicare coverage. Someone in assisted living has the same benefits as they would if they were living in their own home or that of a relative/friend.

[creekland]

I used an online planning tool for one discount funeral home in the area, and the one my mom is seriously going to want us to use - very beautiful, Cadillac.

 

The Cadillac home is not happening. Nor is the $3500.00 casket she'll want because it is woodland themed and "daddy would have loved it."

 

The $800.00 pine box with an okay cream interior will do, or the $600.00 steel grey one with the white interior.

 

As far as I'm concerned, when I go, I don't even need the $600 version.  Take my body and bury it down where we bury the ponies who die on our farm - no "wrapping" needed.  I'd also be ok letting the wild critters have a feast somewhere.  Once I'm done with my body, I honestly don't need it any more, so please don't spend a ton of money on it!  Keep the pictures from when I was living instead.  Use the money saved to keep those alive still living (NOT meaning simply breathing/heartbeat, but living).

 

I saw my grandmother die a horrid death over about 3 years from the time she fell and broke her hip.  She was too old (91) to operate on, so they moved her into a nursing home.  She asked to die shortly afterward, but no such luck.  She asked to go home, but couldn't - family wouldn't allow it.  (I had no vote, but if I did, I'd have still been on the losing side.)  They kept her body alive for close to 3 years (including some hospital stays) even long after her hearing and mind had totally gone.  She was always miserable and always asking why they wouldn't just let her go (die) or go home.

 

No thank you.  I'll have failed if I end up in that position.  I wouldn't put anyone through it.  Money has nothing to do with it.

[Tree Frog]

I'm not sure I understand what is being said here. My brother was on hospice in a facility and everything was paid for. Are you talking about the status of the facility, assisted living vs nursing home?

We've been told because she's living in assisted living, she won't qualify for additional help when she's close to death. We thought when she is comatose on her deathbed that there would be additional assistance. Apparently this help would be available in a nursing home or a house, but not assisted living. It was a big surprise to us.

[Julie Smith]

On my fathers side of the family the pattern is starting to be: donate your body to science, and then when they are down with it they give you the ashes, and sometimes a thank you reception with drinks and snacks. No cost to you, and your body is used for something useful even when you are done with it.

[Tree Frog]

I'm not sure I understand what is being said here. My brother was on hospice in a facility and everything was paid for. Are you talking about the status of the facility, assisted living vs nursing home?

I responded, but it was lost. I'll respond again when I'm on the computer instead of the phone.

[Matryoshka]

On my fathers side of the family the pattern is starting to be: donate your body to science, and then when they are down with it they give you the ashes, and sometimes a thank you reception with drinks and snacks. No cost to you, and your body is used for something useful even when you are done with it.

 

I just heard about the mushroom death suit last night.  I always said I wanted to be cremated, but maybe this isn't such a bad idea.  But I've always thought being embalmed and buried in a fancy box is just ... weird.  I'd prefer my body be put back into the cycle of life.

 

[Laura Corin]

I just heard about the mushroom death suit last night.  I always said I wanted to be cremated, but maybe this isn't such a bad idea.  But I've always thought being embalmed and buried in a fancy box is just ... weird.  I'd prefer my body be put back into the cycle of life.

 

 

My dad was buried in a wicker coffin, unembalmed.  He lies under a meadow, helping to grow a new little wood.

[Julie Smith]

Things to do when you are dead:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Stiff-Curious-Lives-Human-Cadavers/dp/0393324826

 

[Ravin]

I'm surprised that many people here think that the elderly poor are there because they made bad choices.  Sure, some did...but for many women...they were homemakers for years....and if they are in their 80s, well, then college was rare for women back in the 50s.  Careers back then were often secretary, nurse, or teacher...and in some situations you would lose your position if you married.  Women's positions were less likely to pay as well.

 

Too Many Senior Women Live in Poverty

 

"According to new Census Bureau data, 12.1 percent of women 65 or older live in poverty, compared with 7.4 percent of men the same age...The percentage of senior women who are impoverished increases to 14.7 percent when the supplemental poverty measure is used instead of the official one, the census report found."

 

"Without Social Security, the poverty rate among men and women 65 or older would jump from 14.4 percent to 50 percent, according to the census report."

 

The main assertion as far as a poor elderly woman that I've seen on this thread being in that position because of her own actions is the woman featured in the article. She always worked, has no kids she took breaks to raise--she just made some lousy decisions over the long haul which had consequences that multiplied a lot when the recession hit, then made some more lousy decisions that have landed her in a tight spot at the time of the article. You have no kids and a career, why aren't you saving for retirement in your 30's and 40's and 50's??

[Ravin]

I don't think it is wages that haven't kept pace, it is take home pay that haven't kept pace with inflation.  Taxes have skyrocketed.  

 

This is factually incorrect. http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dshort/updates/Household-Income-Distribution.php

 

http://qz.com/74271/income-tax-rates-since-1913/

[Tsuga]

As far as I'm concerned, when I go, I don't even need the $600 version.  Take my body and bury it down where we bury the ponies who die on our farm - no "wrapping" needed.  I'd also be ok letting the wild critters have a feast somewhere.  Once I'm done with my body, I honestly don't need it any more, so please don't spend a ton of money on it!  Keep the pictures from when I was living instead.  

 

We had this discussion actually (when all your family works in the military, the medical system, the prison system, or the schools, there is pretty much no romanticism left) and it turns out that there are some rules about where you can leave a body! Also, we had a fascinating speculative discussion about the effect of drugs in the bloodstream on the wildlife. I think you are in a different state than us but it is interesting to look into where to put the body.

 

Most of us were like you--we just wanted to go back into nature, let the animals enjoy us for awhile instead of us eating them! But then there are issues if the body gets on to someone else's private property, and you can't just dump a body on public property, not to mention the public health implications of what happens when everybody does it.

 

Not to rain on your parade there, LOL. I have thoughts about where they're going to drag my body but they are only marginally legal...

 

Regarding the question of the old person who squandered their wealth, I am pretty much counting on supporting those people. Oh well. It's easy for me to say, do this, do that. But nobody listens. Am I really going to sit there at the end of life and say "We saved, you didn't, die in shame, you pathetic jerk!"

 

No, no I will not. They won't get the fanciest facilities but I wouldn't vote for them to be put out on the street either. I know people are buying video games and occasionally, a family is digging into deeper and deeper debt repeatedly paying for huge trucks and trips to Vegas and such, and I just accept it. Spendthrifts gonna spend. There is literally nothing you can do about it besides hating on them or possibly actively voting for a party that calls for the physical abandonment of lazy people.

[Ravin]

Although interestingly food is much cheaper than it used to be.

 

This is a direct result of subsidizing certain farm crops, such as corn and soybeans. Americans have some of the lowest relative food costs in the world.