UPDATE in 456ish: Older boy in women's locker room WWYD

[AndyJoy]

We participate in a weekly homeschool swim lesson and free time at our local gym. The locker room signs state that all children over age 4 must use their gender's locker room OR use a family bathroom. There are two family bathrooms; to use one you request a key from the front desk.

 

Today was the second time I witnessed a woman take her two boys into the women's room. The younger boy *might* be four but I didn't notice because he was still young-looking, maybe as old as 6. The older boy was *definitely* at least 8, though I would guess more like 10. She told him to close his eyes after they entered and saw women and girls were present in various states of undress, but didn't lead him in that way. One older lady confronted the mom, stating the boy was too old to be in there. The mom snapped, "Well I'm not sending him to the men's room! And they ran out of keys for the family bathroom."

 

I doubted her story about the key, so I asked at the desk. They assured me that they hadn't run out of keys and don't. I suspect the mom lied because it is inconvenient to wait for the family bathrooms sometimes, as they are also used by persons with disabilities and caregivers and can be quite busy at times. But this day/time is NOT busy, and one bathroom was vacant when she brought the boys in. She took them to one of three closed changing stalls (which the men's room has too!), had them change quickly, then walked them out.

 

During this time my 6-year-old was showering and changing in the men's room. I was unhappy with him having to go alone at 5, but we worked with it. At that point he didn't shower, just walked through in his swim trunks beforehand then changed into dry clothes after. I'd have him just put on underwear and pants then put on the rest in the hall to avoid dawdling. I waited in the hall where I could hear him talking/singing and called in for him to hurry up (there is no door, just a wall to go around and the room echos). I coached him on what's appropriate behavior from others and how to scream if needed. Now that my 2-year-old and I swim too, I let him shower as well. This mom does not swim and thus could do the same waiting in the hall trick, or if the younger boy needs help from her, have the older boy wait until she can stand outside.

 

My question is, what would you do? Would you speak up if you were uncomfortable? Would you commiserate about the setup and offer tips that worked for you? Alert the gym staff? Wait for someone else to do it? I'm curious how others would handle it.

Edited February 3, 2016 by AndyJoy

[Ali in OR]

My first step would be to tell her directly, but you've seen someone else do that and she did not comply. My next step would be to alert the staff whenever I see her breaking the rules.

[Pippen]

I'd alert gym staff. 

[Tap]

I would alert the staff.   If you see her in the pool and know that she will be going in the locker room at a certain time (ie the end of session) I would talk to the staff ahead of time and ask if they can be in the changing room at that time, so that they can deal with it as the family walks in. 

 

If there was no family room option, I would be a bit more flexible, but honestly, that is what they are for!

[Guest]

Four?! I would....not comply with that sign.

 

Eta-- but yeah by ten, its past time. I guess id talk to the staff about it.

Edited January 28, 2016 by OKBud

[Farrar]

I think five is too young for being alone in the locker room for many kids. I don't think they're unsafe, I just think they're unlikely to be able to get anything done reasonably. And I know for my kids, the first time they tried it at that age, they got lost - too winding. They came back out and were really upset. Sigh. We have that policy at some pools here and, honestly, I think it makes it harder because when it's so young, people just ignore the policy and then you end up with someone with a kid who really is too old to be in there.

 

I'd also alert the gym staff. I wouldn't for a 6 yo, but I think for a kid you're pretty sure is around 10 yo, it's time to enforce the rules.

[AndyJoy]

Four?! I would....not comply with that sign.

Yeah, I think 5 is young to be alone too! Especially since 6 is the age they're allowed to be unaccompanied in the facility so it's inconsistent. But there are family bathrooms available.

[LibraryLover]

I think it's fine. The family bathrooms often have a line, are tiny!  I don't see the harm here. Nobody is prancing. People are simply trying to get dressed.  I can't imagine the parent had any negative agenda. 

Edited January 28, 2016 by LibraryLover

[AndyJoy]

I think it's fine. The family bathrooms often have a line, are tiny! I don't see the harm.

But there wasn't a line, and there is a 45 minute window between when the boy finishes his lesson and the session ends. And there are naked elderly women in the locker room who aren't OK with it. Plus there was an 8-year-old girl trying to change also.

[Χά�ων]

I would not be bothered and would not make an issue of it. It sounds like the facility needs more family bathrooms.

 

 

I have been in the other moms shoes. I would not send my young son into the men's locker room alone. 10 would be the youngest age I would be comfortable sending a child in alone. With a same age buddy, the youngest I would send them in alone would be 8 years old. Before that age I do not view it as developementally appropriate to send a newly minted 5 year old into a changing room without a parent.

[kitten18]

I would do nothing.

 

 

If I were uncomfortable, I would talk to the staff.

[LibraryLover]

But there wasn't a line, and there is a 45 minute window between when the boy finishes his lesson and the session ends. And there are naked elderly women in the locker room who aren't OK with it. Plus there was an 8-year-old girl trying to change also

 

 

 

So what do you think is happening? Is this mother just getting her kids dressed, or do you think it's something else? (Not judging- trying to understand your concern/worry. )

Edited January 28, 2016 by LibraryLover

[MrsWeasley]

Maybe the child has special needs. Without inappropriate behavior, I would let it go. I haven't seen a locker room without changing stalls in a long time.

[Guest]

This is one of those things I think ppl get really weird about. Like, of course! Moms don't want to send their five year olds to the mens locker room alone. And, of course! Ten year old girls (or anyone) don't want to change their bathing suits with nine or ten year old boys present.

 

Most ppl, I think, are very reasonable and understand that all parties deserve to feel comfortable here...so let's all just be cool and deal with it however we can.

 

Its those few ppl that get super weird that have you end up with signs saying five year olds have to go it alone.

[Anne]

The locker room at our pool has no changing stalls, unless you'd like to change in the three bathroom stalls. I wouldn't be okay with it, particularly if there are family rooms available if the child has special needs or whatever.

 

Anne

[Guest]

Maybe the child has special needs. Without inappropriate behavior, I would let it go. I haven't seen a locker room without changing stalls in a long time.

Mine doesn't have them and I hate it! So many people end up using the toilet stalls to change...so every surface in there is wet at all times.

[SKL]

They have family restrooms.  She should suck it up and wait if she's afraid to send her son into the men's room.

 

I feel sorry for boys who are forced to use the ladies' when they are old enough to be embarrassed about it.  :/

 

The cutoff at our rec center is 3yo.  There is one lady who habitually ignores this.  Her oldest boy is at least 5yo.  My daughters have started to comment about it.  5+yo is too old for a kid to be standing around looking at naked people of the opposite sex in a locker room.  (This kind of comment got me accused of being a perv before, but I still believe it.)

 

I don't know if I'd report this myself, but I would be irritated and might not try too hard to hide it.

Edited January 28, 2016 by SKL

[scoutingmom]

I have been the mom to alert the pool staff. At ours 5 and under are ok. I trained my son when he was 5 on how to do everything while he was in the ladies room... and then he did it at age 6 in the boys. I did ask advice from my sister, as her kidx are older, and their pool had NO family change rooms.... you just have to take courage and do it. Heck, now my 7yo dd takes my 5yo dd to the girls change room, helps her if needed, and takes her to her lesson.... (I now walk with a cane and it is hard to go into the pool area with the cane....

 

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[AndyJoy]

So what do you think is happening? Is this mother just getting her kids dressed, or do you think it's something else? (Not judging- trying to understand your concern/worry. )

I think she's sacrificing the comfort of others by ignoring the posted sign for her own convenience. I think it is unfair to surprise undressed women and girls with the presence of a 10-year-old. There is a legitimate alternative in the family bathroom (which was open!), but I think she lied about the key because she had waited before and didn't want to wait so didn't bother to get it.

[AndyJoy]

Maybe she's also not thought through the creative alternatives possible. That's why I was considering approaching her on the deck beforehand to give her my tips if she doesn't want to wait.

Edited January 28, 2016 by AndyJoy

[MrsWeasley]

The cutoff at our rec center is 3yo. There is one lady who habitually ignores this. Her oldest boy is at least 5yo. My daughters have started to comment about it. 5yo is too old for a kid to be standing around looking at naked people of the opposite sex in a locker room. (This kind of comment got me accused of being a perv before, but I still believe it.)

 

 

I brought my five year old in the women's locker room all summer. I can't imagine at four sending him in the locker room alone. I have never seen him standing around lookint at naked women. He's five: that doesn't interest him yet. His main interest was that if he got dressed, dried his trunks, and combed his long hair in time, I would let him blow dry his hair while he waited for me and the tot.

 

I guess I am lucky I live in a liberal area where most signs that give an age limit ofseven.

Edited January 28, 2016 by MrsWeasley

[kitten18]

They have family restrooms. She should suck it up and wait if she's afraid to send her son into the men's room.

 

I feel sorry for boys who are forced to use the ladies' when they are old enough to be embarrassed about it. :/

 

The cutoff at our rec center is 3yo. There is one lady who habitually ignores this. Her oldest boy is at least 5yo. My daughters have started to comment about it. 5+yo is too old for a kid to be standing around looking at naked people of the opposite sex in a locker room. (This kind of comment got me accused of being a perv before, but I still believe it.)

 

I don't know if I'd report this myself, but I would be irritated and might not try too hard to hide it.

5? 5 is too old to be in an opposite sex locker room?

[SereneHome]

I wouldn't send my 4 or 6 yr old into the men's locker room bc if they need assistance I can't go in and help them.  Not to mention what Farrar said.

 

One time my 7 yr old, who is very independent kid and goes in and changes all by himself, came out and told me that he forgot his underwear. Well, since he was completely dressed I didn't think anything of it, I just thought he put his pants on without them.  Come to find out, he put his pants on top of his wet swim pants.  We live in New England.  If he ever did that in the winter time......

 

I do find it curious as to why this mom won't use family bathrooms if they are available.  Soooo much quieter and roomier. 

[AndyJoy]

Maybe the child has special needs. Without inappropriate behavior, I would let it go. I haven't seen a locker room without changing stalls in a long time.

I doubt it, as he's swimming at a typical level for kids his age, not closely supervised during free time (his mother is far away sitting with all the others), and interacts with my son and others in seemingly typical way. I would expect to notice other signs if he weren't capable of changing alone. But if he does, there are still the family rooms. I personally wasn't too bothered as I was clothed, but the fact that others were uncomfortable and she still proceeded bothered me. She didn't say, "Oh I'm sorry, he needs help and the family bathrooms were full.". I think if that were true it wouldn't bother most people.

Edited January 28, 2016 by AndyJoy

[AndyJoy]

I brought my five year old in the women's locker room all summer. I can't imagine at four sending him in the locker room alone. I have never seen him standing around lookint at naked women. He's five: that doesn't interest him yet. His main interest was that if he got dressed, dried his trunks, and combed his long hair in time, I would let him blow dry his hair while he waited for me and the tot.

 

I guess I am lucky I live in a liberal area where most signs that give an age limit ofseven.

It's OVER 4, so age 5. Which I agree is still young.

[SeaConquest]

They have family restrooms. She should suck it up and wait if she's afraid to send her son into the men's room.

 

I feel sorry for boys who are forced to use the ladies' when they are old enough to be embarrassed about it. :/

 

The cutoff at our rec center is 3yo. There is one lady who habitually ignores this. Her oldest boy is at least 5yo. My daughters have started to comment about it. 5+yo is too old for a kid to be standing around looking at naked people of the opposite sex in a locker room. (This kind of comment got me accused of being a perv before, but I still believe it.)

 

I don't know if I'd report this myself, but I would be irritated and might not try too hard to hide it.

Give me a break. This is ridiculous.

 

This is one of those occasions when I'm glad that my 7 year old looks 4.

[Anne]

The four year old wouldn't bother me.  The 10 year old would bother me.

 

Anne

[AndyJoy]

I wouldn't send my 4 or 6 yr old into the men's locker room bc if they need assistance I can't go in and help them. Not to mention what Farrar said.

 

One time my 7 yr old, who is very independent kid and goes in and changes all by himself, came out and told me that he forgot his underwear. Well, since he was completely dressed I didn't think anything of it, I just thought he put his pants on without them. Come to find out, he put his pants on top of his wet swim pants. We live in New England. If he ever did that in the winter time......

 

I do find it curious as to why this mom won't use family bathrooms if they are available. Soooo much quieter and roomier.

LOL, my son would do that. He once forgot his underwear and came out to the hall to ask me what to do so I told him to go without. He did take off his trunks though, but he's done similar random things.

 

I think the issue is most likely just an unwillingness to wait. Once a dad complained to me about having to wait with his daughter on a particularly busy day. I told him honestly, I'd just take her to the men's room since she was tiny and barely 5. His response sounded like he was more worried about her seeing something than anyone caring. I shrugged and said, "Sorry you have to wait," and moved on.

[zoobie]

My son is 10. That scenario would bother me too, and it would bother him! I think I would have to knock him unconscious to drag him in with me. Follow the rules or find another facility. Using family restrooms is a perfectly reasonable option, though my DS would want privacy in there too.

[MrsWeasley]

I doubt it, as he's swimming at a typical level for kids his age, not closely supervised during free time (his mother is far away sitting with all the others), and interacts with my son and others in seemingly typical way. I would expect to notice other signs if he weren't capable of changing alone. But if he does, there are still the family rooms. I personally wasn't too bothered as I was clothed, but the fact that others were uncomfortable and she still proceeded bothered me. She didn't say, "Oh I'm sorry, he needs help and the family bathrooms were full.". I think if that were true it wouldn't bother most people.

I think it's worth giving her the benefit of the doubt. I mean, what could motivate this mother to bring a child, despite others' disapproval, into a locker room at an age where he may very well get teased for it other than she believes he cannot handle dressing by himself yet?

[SKL]

I think it's worth giving her the benefit of the doubt. I mean, what could motivate this mother to bring a child, despite others' disapproval, into a locker room at an age where he may very well get teased for it other than she believes he cannot handle dressing by himself yet?

 

But that is what the family changing rooms exist for.

 

[LucyStoner]

As a mom of boys I often find that the demand for the family shower rooms exceeds the supply. And our Y has a lot of family shower rooms. My 7 year old can not handle the locker room by himself. It's just not possible at this point. I have opted to violate the locker room policy to get my son out of his homeschool program at the Y before he melts down. I'm not talking a 10 minute wait. I'm talking 1/2 hour, right before dinner. Fun times. It's either that or change in the van. Which, when I felt the women's locker room was too crowded to break the rules, we have in fact done (it's just him changing- not me.) That said the women's changing rooms are usually all but deserted and I duck into one of the curtained off stalls.

 

I would REALLY appreciate if the moms with only girls would use the women's locker room rather than take up one of the family shower rooms when there's a wait.

 

Truthfully, I wouldn't bat an eye at an 8 year old boy in the ladies locker room. Most of us moms are just trying to do the best we can, and I would just assume there was some reason why he couldn't use the other locker room alone.

[MrsWeasley]

I would REALLY appreciate if the moms with only girls would use the women's locker room rather than take up one of the family shower rooms when there's a wait.

 

 

I have two boys, but even when I only had a daugher my favorite thing about family changing rooms was, though my one or two year old daughter would sometimes climb under a stall as I changed in the women's locker room, in a tamily locker room, I could lock her in with me until I was done.

[LucyStoner]

I have two boys, but even when I only had a daugher my favorite thing about family changing rooms was, though my one or two year old daughter would sometimes climb under a stall as I changed in the women's locker room, in a tamily locker room, I could lock her in with me until I was done.

I hear you on the convenience but when it is busy, it would be more considerate to let those with special needs opposite gendered (to their caregiver) children who are over the age limit have access if there's another place to change with your same gender child.

[happi duck]

The alternative is *not* little boy alone in the men's locker room. The mom should use the room provided.

 

There's no gray area in the club's rule.

 

If one female feels uncomfortable that should be respected. It's okay if a ten year old boy doesn't bother someone but that doesn't mean that someone who *is* bothered is wrong.

 

The homeschooling class should respect the club's rules so that they'll continue the hs class.

[MrsWeasley]

I hear you on the convenience but when it is busy, it would be more considerate to let those with special needs opposite gendered (to their caregiver) children who are over the age limit have access if there's another place to change with your same gender child.

It depends wildly on the space. We go swim in an old quarry in the summer where the sex segregated locker rooms do not have doors. A toddler could easily run out of the locker room and down by the quarry. It's a safety issue.

[Daria]

I hear you on the convenience but when it is busy, it would be more considerate to let those with special needs opposite gendered (to their caregiver) children who are over the age limit have access if there's another place to change with your same gender child.

 

And not just children.  There are plenty of adults who need the support of a spouse or caregiver to be able to use the pool.

 

When I worked in a group home, we faced some difficult choices.  Do I walk the guys through the men's locker room, or bring them with me?  Or wear our wet suits home in the van?  

 

When a new facility with family locker rooms opened, it made swimming so much easier, but when we'd wait 30 minutes because some mom with a daughter decided to wash their hair in the family locker room, it was still annoying.

 

[HS Mom in NC]

We participate in a weekly homeschool swim lesson and free time at our local gym. The locker room signs state that all children over age 4 must use their gender's locker room OR use a family bathroom. There are two family bathrooms; to use one you request a key from the front desk.

 

 

I'd let the staff know.

 

I think there's a general principle here that needs addressing.  If a person doesn't like a facility's policy, they shouldn't use the facility.  So this woman can not like that her kid should use the other changing area all day long, but she doesn't own the facility, so she should comply or go elsewhere where the policy suits her.   I think there's a problem in the homeschooling community (I'm assuming since it's a homeschooling swim class the mom in question is a homeschooler) where some homeschoolers think they're special and can attend a facility owned by someone else and/or an activity designed and run by someone else and blatantly disregard the stated policies.  If you want it done your way, according to your standards, then plan it, own it, run it, and organize it yourself.  You're either in or you're out. It's perfectly fine to ask about he policy you don't agree with and explain that you would sign up except for the policy, so you'll have to decline. They told you the policy and if you think it's annoying, stupid, irritating, irrational, or unfounded, then go somewhere else. It doesn't matter if you're right or wrong in your assessment. Don't show up and then disregard or complain about the policy. There have been a few things where I would've liked going to except for some dumb policy, so I didn't go.

 

I'm hearing more and more complaints from venues, hired teachers, co-op coordinators, hostesses, docents, tour guides, and the like that some homeschoolers are disregarding policies about age limits, prerequisites, minimum skill sets, behavioral standards, and deadlines then playing the martyr when confronted about it. Are there dumb policies out there?  Sure, like everything else there are going to be good ones and bad ones, but that's not the point.  The point is, if you want the privilege of deciding the policy, you have to take the responsibility of providing the event yourself.  This is one of the primary reasons so many homeschoolers and other venues stop providing these kinds of things to homeschoolers.

 

It's not the fault of the women and girls that there aren't enough family changing facilities in situations some posters here have described. Or more private individual changing stalls or whatever gets the job done. It's the fault of the facility that they don't cater to their clientele's needs adequately.  So take it up with the facility. Explain that you're going to take your business elsewhere and why.  Then leave and take your money with you.

[abba12]

I can't believe the number of people ok with a possibly 10 year old boy amongst naked women.

So, let me ask, are we ok with your 10 year old daughters going into the men's changing rooms filled with naked men? Doubtful. 

 

The 6yo, fine, I'd let her bend the rules. But there's no way a 10 year old should be there. If she really thinks her 10yo is not capable of going into a changing room alone (seriously?)  then she needs to use the family rooms, convenient or not. 

[LucyStoner]

It depends wildly on the space. We go swim in an old quarry in the summer where the sex segregated locker rooms do not have doors. A toddler could easily run out of the locker room and down by the quarry. It's a safety issue.

Yes, in that instance it's a safety thing. At my Y however, it's usually moms with their school aged girls, who are getting out of the same class as my son (which is for school aged kids). And there's not a quarry. It's not that big of a deal but it is just somewhat inconsiderate. It's almost always the moms there and moms with kids of both genders or just sons aren't supposed to use the women's room.

 

On the days my husband takes him, he doesn't use a family shower room even if it's open. He leaves it for someone with a greater need. I think that's nice.

[AndyJoy]

I hear you on the convenience but when it is busy, it would be more considerate to let those with special needs opposite gendered (to their caregiver) children who are over the age limit have access if there's another place to change with your same gender child.

Yes, I've seen moms with two preschool boys or only girls use the family ones during busy times and I wish they wouldn't for the sake of others waiting since there are only two. Maybe containment issues for a runner is the motivation, IDK. The logistics are more difficult in the women's room if you're not comfortable with others possibly seeing you undressed.

 

One woman (who I've now interacted with quite a bit) has let her 8-year-old boy shower alone in there for a full 20 minutes before joining him with her 4-year-old girl. That's just thoughtless, and also against policy as kids are supposed to be accompanied in the family rooms.

[AndyJoy]

I think it's worth giving her the benefit of the doubt. I mean, what could motivate this mother to bring a child, despite others' disapproval, into a locker room at an age where he may very well get teased for it other than she believes he cannot handle dressing by himself yet?

I think impatience (or laziness to walk back for a key since the family room was vacant) could definitely be a motivation. I know plenty of moms (homeschoolers and not) who don't grasp/believe what might set their 10-year-olds up for teasing. Or they supervise so closely that teasing from peers has never been an issue they've had to confront. She could easily think, "This policy is dumb; ten's not that old. I don't want to wait. Who will care?" then impulsively stick with it when confronted with people who do care! I'm curious to see if she modifies her plan next week after having had time to consider the reaction she got.

[foxbridgeacademy]

It probably wouldn't bother me much, and even if it did not enough to get involved.  I also would think 8-10 is the earliest I'd let my son go in the boy's locker room to change, showering would have to wait until we got home. 

[Lanny]

Speak up. Alert the gym staff. There is a sign about children  4 years old or older.  Women were in their, some of them in their "birthday suits".  I wouldn't want my wife or my DD in there with boys...  IMO you did the correct thing. 

[Aiden]

I would report it to the staff, each and every time it happened. Agree with the policy or not, it's the policy. Only the owner (or the person the owner has put in charge of the facility) has the right to make the rules. Once they're made, those who disagree should either comply anyway or not participate.

[Ottakee]

I agree that if this is the policy she needs to follow it or not participate, esp since there are family changing rooms available.

 

Homeschoolers who think they are "above" the rules are what ruins it for many other homeschoolers. Facilities and classes get tired of homeschoolers who feel they don't need to follow the rules.

[kiwik]

They have family restrooms. She should suck it up and wait if she's afraid to send her son into the men's room.

 

I feel sorry for boys who are forced to use the ladies' when they are old enough to be embarrassed about it. :/

 

The cutoff at our rec center is 3yo. There is one lady who habitually ignores this. Her oldest boy is at least 5yo. My daughters have started to comment about it. 5+yo is too old for a kid to be standing around looking at naked people of the opposite sex in a locker room. (This kind of comment got me accused of being a perv before, but I still believe it.)

 

I don't know if I'd report this myself, but I would be irritated and might not try too hard to hide it.

3? I wouldn't be at all concerned until they were about 7.

 

Eta. Our family rooms don't have showers. Showering is done in open showers in the main changing rooms or by the poolside. Toilets are in tge main changing rooms and the disabled changing room. I am not sending my 3 or 4 year old into a male changing room by himself to use the toilet either.

Edited January 28, 2016 by kiwik

[Joyofsixreboot]

I wouldn't have cared but me being me I would probably have gotten into a loud, messy altercation that would have alerted the staff anyway.😚

[bettyandbob]

They have two family dressing rooms. For that reason, I have no problem with the age on the sign. The gym isn't saying send your child into the locker room on his own. It is simply saying he can't use that space. There is space he can use.

I suspect the woman doesn't want to wait her turn for family dressing. I have no sympathy for this. I have a child with an intellectual disability. I will always be waiting in line for family dressing. There is no reason this woman cannot plan her day so that she builds in time to wait.

If the woman disagrees with rule or doesn't want to wait she does have the option of not using the facility. No one is required to take homeschool gym and swim. If one does take that class, he/she should expect to follow the rules of the facility. Not doing so can affect whether the facility will continue to offer such a class in the future.

The reason she has to wait is the homeschool class just ended and there are other moms and boys who get to the family changing before her.

Tell gym staff. Tell them when you get to class next time so someone can follow her at the end of class to the correct facility.

Edited January 28, 2016 by Diana P.

[Χά�ων]

Give me a break. This is ridiculous.

 

This is one of those occasions when I'm glad that my 7 year old looks 4.

I am a bit jealous. At 7 I was constantly reminding people my son was not 12. It made for some very trying times when he would be in a mixed age practice or lesson and the instructors were getting upset because he was acting like a typical 7 year old. I lost count of how many times I had that conversation and at one point I seriously considered making a shirt that said his age on it for him to wear.

 

Actually, this brings up a point, the OP was unsure his age. This child may not actually be 10.