Really Enjoyed this article on the decline of reading

[ReadingMama1214]

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/where-have-all-the-readers-gone/article28198236/

 

Has me thinking if there is a correlation between the decrease of literacy and the increase in 3rd graders not reading anywhere near grade level or at all.

[Coco_Clark]

In my experience (which is limited) children read just fine, or at least moderately well. But adults dont read at all. Which means as kids grow up they become to see reading as a kid thing...not an adult thing, and leave off. :(

[ReadingMama1214]

In my experience (which is limited) children read just fine, or at least moderately well. But adults dont read at all. Which means as kids grow up they become to see reading as a kid thing...not an adult thing, and leave off. :(

 

In Denver (where I live) we have horrendous literacy rates for public school 3rd graders. So my thought was whether seeing their parents read and love reading had any impact on childhood literacy. I know my love for reading has caused me to invest in building a love for reading in my own children. 

 

[SKL]

I don't know - I would have thought reading volume has increased since I was a kid.  In my personal experience, more reading is happening.

 

Could it be a little confused due to the second-hand book market?  Or people going back to the classics vs. trusting new authors?

 

Granted, I don't read a ton as a working parent, but it's not because I'm illiterate.  I just have a lot of more important things to do at this stage of life.

[SKL]

As for 3rd graders not reading near grade level, are we comparing apples to apples?  Has "3rd grade level" changed over the years?  I thought they had raised the standards, and if so, it is not surprising if more kids don't meet them.

[HomeAgain]

My kid is reading Fahrenheit 451 right now.  This will be an interesting article to discuss tonight along with the book setting.

[Tanaqui]

That's not an article, that's an opinion piece with no citations, no sources. I can sum it up in three words: "Kids these days!"

 

If you'd like some actual data, it's not impossible to find. I find the data somewhat less gloom and doom than that piece.

[luuknam]

I don't even understand his first paragraph (nor the second):

 

Count the books in your house – the books in plain sight, not the ones buried in boxes. Then count the number of books you bought. Finally, count the number of books you actually read last year – books, not magazines, websites or anything else.

 

If you are like most people, these numbers will graph a steady slide toward personal illiteracy.

 

Very rough estimate of number of books within sight from living room couch - 360 (estimated 40 per shelf). Count the number of books I bought? Er, almost all of those - I don't go around stealing books and it's not like people give me lots of books - not a clue how that matters though - books on my shelf are books on my shelf, regardless of how I got them. Books I read last year? I dunno, mostly books from library, more than I care to attempt to count, but probably only in the 50-100 books range.

 

How does turning this into a graph (which would show a downward trend, especially between #booksowned vs #booksread) show a slide toward personal illiteracy? Would it be better if I had fewer books on my shelves than I read last year in which case it would make a graph with an upward going slope (easily doable by giving away most of my books and continuing reading library books)? This argument just doesn't make sense. (as a side note, there I'm also not the only person living here, so the books on the shelves are not just for me)

Edited January 17, 2016 by luuknam

[mathmarm]

Honestly I read for the sake of my kids. I fully recognize that as literacy rates  crash in the English speaking world, being a strong and skilled reader will be a tremendous asset and perhaps sooner than later, reading itself will once again be a job qualification. Hubby and I will do our best to ensure that our kids grow into strong, skilled readers. So far, we are off to a good start.

 

I never liked reading as a child. I don't like reading as an adult. Reading wasn't particularly hard or anything, but it was mind-numbingly dull. I don't think that I was a poor reader, but I certainly wasn't a skilled one and while I think I've improved a great deal in just under 3 years, I still can't say that I like or enjoy reading as an educated adult with multiple degrees.  Reading for readings sake just doesn't excite me. Sorry, but reading words for the sake of reading words doesn't entertain or interest me. It can be like listening to some one that just never shuts up. I find that there is usually a very low return on investment with books--you read 150 pages, but the main point/benefit can all be summed up in 1-3 pages tops.

 

I strongly prefer quality nonfiction and well written articles (of which this wasn't a good example), because by nature of it being an article it tends to be more succinct and carry a bigger whallop as far as words per point made. I buy educational and nonfiction books because the vast majority of reading required by people of all ages in the developing world is and will continue to be educational and non-fiction. We read a nauseating amount of fiction and that we borrow from the library, I don't see myself reading much fiction with the kids beyond 5th or 6th grade, after that, they will have to read it to themselves.

[Wheres Toto]

I don't even understand his first paragraph (nor the second):

 

Count the books in your house – the books in plain sight, not the ones buried in boxes. Then count the number of books you bought. Finally, count the number of books you actually read last year – books, not magazines, websites or anything else.

 

If you are like most people, these numbers will graph a steady slide toward personal illiteracy.

 

Very rough estimate of number of books within sight from living room couch - 360 (estimated 40 per shelf). Count the number of books I bought? Er, almost all of those - I don't go around stealing books and it's not like people give me lots of books - not a clue how that matters though - books on my shelf are books on my shelf, regardless of how I got them. Books I read last year? I dunno, mostly books from library, more than I care to attempt to count, but probably only in the 50-100 books range.

 

How does turning this into a graph (which would show a downward trend, especially between #booksowned vs #booksread) show a slide toward personal illiteracy? Would it be better if I had fewer books on my shelves than I read last year in which case it would make a graph with an upward going slope (easily doable by giving away most of my books and continuing reading library books)? This argument just doesn't make sense. (as a side note, there I'm also not the only person living here, so the books on the shelves are not just for me)

 

Yeah, that doesn't make any sense at all.  Also, what is "buried in boxes"?  I ran out of book shelf space so I have paperbacks in movie/photo storage boxes stacked on top of a bookshelf and on a high shelf along the living room ceiling.  I can grab a footstool and have them down in 2 minutes.  Does that mean they don't count?

 

Maybe it's the people I'm around but I see a lot of people reading, all the time.

[wintermom]

My dh has taught at a Canadian university for the last 20 years, and he says that he's encountered the exact same things as the author of this article; students moan about having to read anything, and their writing has deteriorated from adequate (20 years ago) to poor.  

 

FYI, the institution the prof teaches at (Royal Military College) is our Canadian equivalent to West Point in the US. It's not your average college. Standards to enter are VERY high, and the students are also training military officers. These are not unmotivated young people at all. 

Edited January 17, 2016 by wintermom

[Arcadia]

My nearest library is a less than 10mins walk away down the road. I don't need to buy books except for the textbooks my kids use daily.

 

We have more ereaders than humans in our house too. It is easier to increase the font size on an ereader than to find large print books.

[Tanaqui]

My dh has taught at a Canadian university for the last 20 years, and he says that he's encountered the exact same things as the author of this article; students moan about having to read anything, and their writing has deteriorated from adequate (20 years ago) to poor.

 

I don't want to criticize your husband, exactly, but you can point to professors for the past 50 years having noted the same thing as your husband - somehow, it's all gone downhill since they started teaching! Rarely, however, have those professors had the foresight to take notes before they noticed how awful things were.

 

I don't believe we've been making this remarkable slide for the past 3 generations. I think humans, including professors, have a tendency to romanticize the past.

[wintermom]

I think that this article wasn't bad for a newspaper piece. It's not meant to be scientific and evidence based research. It's an observation of the current status of university students who are expected to be able to read and write well enough to make the entrance requirements to a top university. The abilities of these students seems to have decreased over the years. Somewhere along the pathway through the school system, students are not comfortable reading more difficult material and learning how to write effectively.  I'm not sure how directly this phenomenon ties in with trends in book sales and book stores. There may or may not be a causal relationship. From what I've heard, children's book sales are still doing well. Parents and grandparents are still buying print books for their children. Most parents and teachers are still trying to ensure their children read, but is the end goal/requirements for graduating high school students in terms of reading and writing levels as high as it was 20 years ago? Sounds like it probably isn't.

[Matryoshka]

Honestly I read for the sake of my kids. I fully recognize that as literacy rates  crash in the English speaking world, being a strong and skilled reader will be a tremendous asset and perhaps sooner than later, reading itself will once again be a job qualification. Hubby and I will do our best to ensure that our kids grow into strong, skilled readers. So far, we are off to a good start.

 

I never liked reading as a child. I don't like reading as an adult. Reading wasn't particularly hard or anything, but it was mind-numbingly dull. I don't think that I was a poor reader, but I certainly wasn't a skilled one and while I think I've improved a great deal in just under 3 years, I still can't say that I like or enjoy reading as an educated adult with multiple degrees.  Reading for readings sake just doesn't excite me. Sorry, but reading words for the sake of reading words doesn't entertain or interest me. It can be like listening to some one that just never shuts up. I find that there is usually a very low return on investment with books--you read 150 pages, but the main point/benefit can all be summed up in 1-3 pages tops.

 

I strongly prefer quality nonfiction and well written articles (of which this wasn't a good example), because by nature of it being an article it tends to be more succinct and carry a bigger whallop as far as words per point made. I buy educational and nonfiction books because the vast majority of reading required by people of all ages in the developing world is and will continue to be educational and non-fiction. We read a nauseating amount of fiction and that we borrow from the library, I don't see myself reading much fiction with the kids beyond 5th or 6th grade, after that, they will have to read it to themselves.

 

OMG, you're like my dd.  She can read, she just doesn't.want.to.  Everyone keeps saying there must be some issue if she doesn't like to read.  At this point I really don't think so.  She's been seeing a developmental optometrist since she was tiny (because both her sisters have issues), but he's never found any problem.  She can decode anything in three languages.  She does fine on reading comprehension tests - not 99th percentile, but solidly well above average.  She has a decent vocabulary.  She was even an early reader, as far as decoding and being able to read. WHAT is her issue?  She just says she doesn't like to read.  I sent her to school for a while, and turns out she did that thing many kids do where they read SparkNotes or other summary stuff and quite successfully bluff their way through discussions and writing papers.  :banghead:

 

Now that she's home, I've signed her up for Center for Lit's online class, which is just a book a month.  She lied about reading the first three chapters; she was trying to get by by reading summaries, but she said 'even they were too boring'.  So I caved and I'm having her listen to the audio book.  I feel like a failure.

 

So, from someone who shares her antipathy - maybe you can help me understand?  You, like her, say it's boring.  Can you stand listening to stories?  Movies?  Or do you not like stories in any form, and stick to documentaries and news?  She seems to be okay listening (I think she still wishes they were shorter, but it's much better) or watching shows (very happy to do that), so I'm wondering if she has a hard time visualizing the story while she's reading?  She was less averse to picture books, but she's 15 now!  And do I just keep letting her listen to the books instead of reading them - I still feel like it's better than having her read summaries?

 

[JoJosMom]

I don't want to criticize your husband, exactly, but you can point to professors for the past 50 years having noted the same thing as your husband - somehow, it's all gone downhill since they started teaching! Rarely, however, have those professors had the foresight to take notes before they noticed how awful things were.

 

I don't believe we've been making this remarkable slide for the past 3 generations. I think humans, including professors, have a tendency to romanticize the past.

 

A better way to evaluate this would be to look at the percentage of entering college freshman who require remediation.  That number has soared, even among the population of students who were college material 30-40 years ago. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

This doesn't mesh with my experiences at all.  Which might mean nothing.  Most adults I know personally read regularly. 

[Tanaqui]

The abilities of these students seems to have decreased over the years.

 

Except that every generation of professors says the same thing. "Kids today can't write or reason or math as well as we could when I was young!" They can't all be telling the truth, or else by now we'd be at a point where nobody could wipe their own snotty noses.

 

The fact that they keep on saying it without providing any clear data just underlies my point here. If they HAD the data, they'd show it.

 

but is the end goal/requirements for graduating high school students in terms of reading and writing levels as high as it was 20 years ago? Sounds like it probably isn't.

 

Well, we can keep on hypothesizing about what "probably" is and isn't the case, or we can look up our local standards and compare them to the standards 20 years ago. Or, in your case, you can compare first year work where your husband teaches from 1995 and today.

 

I don't know what the standards are like where you are, but I can look up NYS English Regents online for the past 50 years or so. I had no idea this resource was available until I googled, but here it is! It's worth noting that until relatively recently, less able students had the option of taking the RCT instead of the Regents, or obtaining a "local diploma", so comparing the Regents from 1980 to the Regents from today may give the false impression that standards have dropped when really, the Regents used to be for more advanced students. The RCTs are not available online. Perhaps it would be better to compare old AP exams...?

 

It's not meant to be scientific and evidence based research. It's an observation of the current status of university students who are expected to be able to read and write well enough to make the entrance requirements to a top university.

 

Then what's the point? Without evidence, how do we know those observations are correct?

 

[Tanaqui]

A better way to evaluate this would be to look at the percentage of entering college freshman who require remediation.  That number has soared, even among the population of students who were college material 30-40 years ago.

 

Perhaps, perhaps not. First we need to establish if our standards for "requiring remediation" are the same. Then we need to establish if we're still drawing from the same population. If a greater percentage of our population is entering college nowadays than 35 years ago - which does seem to be the case! - then it's hardly surprising that we have more students requiring remediation.

 

I'm not sure that there is a simple answer to these questions, and I'm really not sure that we'll get a clear figure.

[Dmmetler]

Not to mention that in the room where I'm sitting we have my iPad (hundreds of books in my Kindle cloud and loaded, and a significant number of iBooks, Nook, Overdrive and .pdf files), DD's Kindle (continually full), and DH's kindle (ditto). We have a lot of print books, but almost all our casual reading is e-books, library books, or used books that we buy in bulk, read, and then trade in for credit. Almost all of the non-school print books I've bought at Amazon in the past year are graphic novel/comic type books that just don't work well on the kindles. Selling fewer print books doesn't mean less reading.

Edited January 17, 2016 by dmmetler

[mathmarm]

Now that she's home, I've signed her up for Center for Lit's online class, which is just a book a month.  She lied about reading the first three chapters; she was trying to get by by reading summaries, but she said 'even they were too boring'.  So I caved and I'm having her listen to the audio book.  I feel like a failure.

Is the point of the literature class to physically use her own eyes and visually read the book, or to discuss and explore the literary elements of the story? If this is about literary elements, then I can't imagine why aurally reading the book and participating in the class is some how inferior to visually reading the book and participating in the class.

 

So, from someone who shares her antipathy - maybe you can help me understand?  You, like her, say it's boring.  Can you stand listening to stories?

I'm actually exploring audio-based entertainment more. I find that I like audio performances more than just regular audio books, I haven't thought about it before, but I guess it has to do with it being a richer experience. The sound effects tell you the scene is in a kitchen, verses being told through narrated words/text that the characters are in the kitchen. The words that are spoken matter more to the story and therefore carry more "whallop" vs straight naration  Movies?  Or do you not like stories in any form, and stick to documentaries and news?  Poorly written stories--no matter what the medium--are still poorly written.  I don't care for poorly written stories. Twilight is (almost) as terrible a film as it is a book because it is, fundamentally flawed. I say almost because the movie is blessedly, only 2 hours where as the book takes at least 6 to read.)

 

I don't like badly done documentaries, one-sided news casts or horrible movies any more than I like poorly written books.

I'm a big fan of certain series because I like the stories/worlds/etc. The characters make the

 

Our intellectual society looks down on people who fess up to not liking to read, it's some how taboo and terribly ignorant to say "I don't like books" but if you replace "books" with almost any other popular past time and there is a "pass" to be given by the larger society. There is,at least some segment of the population that understands your not liking X.

 

You don't like sports? Oh, well they're not for everyone.

You don't like art? That's okay, only snobs like art.

You don't like math? Bah! No one is good at math anyway! That's what calculators are for.

You don't like listening to music? Oh well....

 

But if you say that you don't like reading then $hit hits the fan in peoples minds:

You don't like books and reading? Oh my Gosh! You must have grown up with out books in the home! You went to an underfunded school, how can you not like reading? You must be a poor reader! You could be dyslexic! You must really struggle in this world without being a good reader, you poor dear, a lot of people in poverty don't read, etc, etc, etc...

 

Reading, as a past time is as much of a preference as anything else. If you aren't stressed out about your child not enjoying drawing or listening to music or a hundred other "worth while" past times, I don't see why reading is any different.

 

You have a child--who is a person, a relative, a member of your family--that prefers to spend their free time doing things that aren't reading. So what? Why does that make you a failure? When parents say they feel like failures, what they are also saying is that they feel responsible and personally at fault for their child's deficiency.

Your daughter is not deficient because she prefers to not read things that don't interest her.

 

Have you ever heard a joke, understood the joke as it was told, but not found it funny? That's sort of what reading is like for me. I can read, I understand what I'm reading but so what? It's not "funny" to me.

 

For me, not liking to read is a lot like not seeing the appeal in a very popular show--everyone talks about how unbelievably GREAT this new show is, you watch a few episodes and your reaction is just "Meh. I don't think that this is worth my free time."

Its not that I don't understand the show, or the writing is too sophisticated for me or there is anything wrong with me.

Its just a preference for or against something.

 

She seems to be okay listening (I think she still wishes they were shorter, but it's much better) or watching shows (very happy to do that), so I'm wondering if she has a hard time visualizing the story while she's reading? 

I can't answer whether or not she has a hard time visualizing the story or not. But regardless, that doesn't matter. Again, think of the popular show that you don't care for, or the joke that doesn't make you laugh. There is nothing wrong with the show. There is nothing wrong with the joke/comic or their delivery and, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH YOUR DAUGHTER (OR ME).

She was less averse to picture books, but she's 15 now!  And do I just keep letting her listen to the books instead of reading them - I still feel like it's better than having her read summaries?

I don't see why aurally reading a book is somehow "less than" visually reading the book. What is the point of reading the book? Is it to visually read and mentally decode the words printed in the book or to absorb the story/nuance/vocabulary/characters/morals/message of the author?

 

Personally, I find many picture books to be more rewarding per page. There is a richer, more nuanced experience to the story than just text alone. A picture is worth 1000 words, no? They are more succinct because a bulk of the story is told with pictures/or they are just more succinct. I don't like when stories go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and then only at the end do they make a point that could have been stated in the first chapter. Or hell, the freaking prologue! (Or the opening scene where movies are concerned)

 

 

A book, no matter how it is read, is an experience. There is more than one way legitimate way to experience the book.

If she can and will aurally read an audio version of the exact same book that the other students are (presumably) visually reading, and then, she can  will properly participate in the class discussions/assignments, then what, exactly, is the problem?

 

Now NOT being able to read is a different bag of dirt. Your daughter can read, but prefers not to.

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

Not to mention that in the room where I'm sitting we have my iPad (hundreds of books in my Kindle cloud and loaded, and a significant number of iBooks, Nook, Overdrive and .pdf files), DD's Kindle (continually full), and DH's kindle (ditto). We have a lot of print books, but almost all our casual reading is e-books, library books, or used books that we buy in bulk, read, and then trade in for credit. Almost all of the non-school print books I've bought at Amazon in the past year are graphic novel/comic type books that just don't work well on the kindles. Selling fewer print books doesn't mean less reading.

 

Absolutely!  I'm very glad for e-books.  I'm tired of lugging my physical books around when moving.  And there is only so much space.

 

I still buy physical books pretty regularly, but I get rid of whatever we are done with. 

[ReadingMama1214]

Not to mention that in the room where I'm sitting we have my iPad (hundreds of books in my Kindle cloud and loaded, and a significant number of iBooks, Nook, Overdrive and .pdf files), DD's Kindle (continually full), and DH's kindle (ditto). We have a lot of print books, but almost all our casual reading is e-books, library books, or used books that we buy in bulk, read, and then trade in for credit. Almost all of the non-school print books I've bought at Amazon in the past year are graphic novel/comic type books that just don't work well on the kindles. Selling fewer print books doesn't mean less reading.

 

I do think he mentioned that it wasn't simply because people transitioned to e-books.

 

I do wish he had given more sources and data, but it was an op-ed piece. I have seen other articles discussing the decrease in reading in the U.S. though and will try to see if I can find them. I do not think he is necessarily correct in his analysis, but I too have had professors discuss the same issue and the apparent coddling that today's college students receive. Clearly that is not at every school and with every professor, just a noted trend.

 

I would love to see statistics regarding libraries and their usage. Libraries now offer so much more than just books, but I am curious if book circulation has decreased.

 

Oddly, I know very few adults in my community who do read for pleasure or who make time for it as a family. Not much reading aloud goes on beyond the baby/toddler/preschooler age group. When we discuss reading, they blame a lack of time. Reading is definitely not a priority. Not that it should be for everyone. I get much more out of reading than my husband does. It relaxes me, takes me away, and fills my mind. He could take it or leave it. Is he any less intelligent? No. 

 

I found the article interesting and it is one that leads me down a rabbit trail of thinking.  But, I agree it is not a scientific study and he does not offer evidence other than anecdotal. 

[daijobu]

 

I never liked reading as a child. I don't like reading as an adult. Reading wasn't particularly hard or anything, but it was mind-numbingly dull. I don't think that I was a poor reader, but I certainly wasn't a skilled one and while I think I've improved a great deal in just under 3 years, I still can't say that I like or enjoy reading as an educated adult with multiple degrees.  Reading for readings sake just doesn't excite me. Sorry, but reading words for the sake of reading words doesn't entertain or interest me. It can be like listening to some one that just never shuts up. I find that there is usually a very low return on investment with books--you read 150 pages, but the main point/benefit can all be summed up in 1-3 pages tops.

 

I strongly prefer quality nonfiction and well written articles (of which this wasn't a good example), because by nature of it being an article it tends to be more succinct and carry a bigger whallop as far as words per point made. I buy educational and nonfiction books because the vast majority of reading required by people of all ages in the developing world is and will continue to be educational and non-fiction. We read a nauseating amount of fiction and that we borrow from the library, I don't see myself reading much fiction with the kids beyond 5th or 6th grade, after that, they will have to read it to themselves.

 

I hear ya.  I'm one of those people who preferred the TV version of Wizard of Oz to the book.  Not. even. close.  

 

Don't tell anyone, but I read all 7 of those freakin' Harry Pottery books, and it was all lost on me.  I read them anticipating that my kids would love them like everyone else's kids.  Turns out, they have no interest in HP.  What a waste of time!  

 

Somewhere on these boards, someone recommended a book on study skills.  I looked it up on Amazon, and someone in the reviews linked to a 6 page article that summed up the entire book.  That saved me lots of time!  (Almost making up for Harry Potter.)

 

I read aloud to the kids at mealtimes, and our most entertaining reads are non fiction.  Wow.  You really spoke for me here.  

[bolt.]

"Kids these days! They can't read or write."

 

"Kids these days! they are always on their phones... reading things... or... writing to each other."

 

Anicdotally, high school teacher chit-chat seems to indicate that current students are better at many communication skills than the last decade. (They were including most types of everyday reading and writing. Literature and academic writing are still a stretch.) These students read and write as primary communication forms. They show ease, fluency, and a willingness to engage with writing that surprised the teachers that I was privy to.

[Sarah0000]

Well, lets see. Just this past week I read nine books just for myself and at least forty picture books with the kids. But, I'm a bookworm. Most of the adults I know read at least, I'm guessing, twenty books a year (based on what's posted on FB or discussed, so its probably actually more).

 

I feel like, if anything, the average complexity of books read has decreased more than the volume.

[calihil]

Eh, my mom was an avid reader and I never was.

[Gil]

I hear ya.  I'm one of those people who preferred the TV version of Wizard of Oz to the book.  Not. even. close.  

 

Don't tell anyone, but I read all 7 of those freakin' Harry Pottery books, and it was all lost on me.  I read them anticipating that my kids would love them like everyone else's kids.  Turns out, they have no interest in HP.  What a waste of time!  

 

Somewhere on these boards, someone recommended a book on study skills.  I looked it up on Amazon, and someone in the reviews linked to a 6 page article that summed up the entire book.  That saved me lots of time!  (Almost making up for Harry Potter.)

 

I read aloud to the kids at mealtimes, and our most entertaining reads are non fiction.  Wow.  You really spoke for me here.  

Would you mind telling me where I can find that 6-page article?

[daijobu]

Would you mind telling me where I can find that 6-page article?

 

Lol, here it is:  What Works What Doesn't.  I'm sorry I don't remember the book with the extra fluff.  

[regentrude]

I don't want to criticize your husband, exactly, but you can point to professors for the past 50 years having noted the same thing as your husband - somehow, it's all gone downhill since they started teaching! Rarely, however, have those professors had the foresight to take notes before they noticed how awful things were.

 

I don't believe we've been making this remarkable slide for the past 3 generations. I think humans, including professors, have a tendency to romanticize the past.

 

I hear the same observations from my colleagues in the English department. The lack of reading comprehension (we are not talking about joyful recreational reading- just comprehension!) is alarming and across institutions identified as a real problem.

 

And professors do have notes from "before": you can simply look at the syllabi and reading lists from previous years and decades and compare.

And they may likely have their own college notes. I have all of mine - and they show me how much less I can cover in the classes I teach compared with the classes I took 30 years ago. It is disheartening. (Granted, here the difference in educational system and the pathetic high school math education in this country play a role) - but my point is: there are "notes from before".

Edited January 18, 2016 by regentrude

[regentrude]

A better way to evaluate this would be to look at the percentage of entering college freshman who require remediation.  That number has soared, even among the population of students who were college material 30-40 years ago. 

 

Yes. Testing at our college revealed that  about 25% of freshman lack the reading comprehension necessary for college success. The people doing this research said the number is comparable to other institutions.

 

Edited January 18, 2016 by regentrude

[SKL]

When I was in high school, my reading was pretty much all classics.  Nowadays I hear not just teens but also many adults talking about reading "young adult" fiction, which is what I would consider middle school level stuff.  If many prospective college students consider those "young adult" story books to be prep for college literature and composition, then I can understand the difference (if there is one).

 

But as for moaning and groaning, well, we did it in college 30 years ago.  It didn't mean we couldn't read, it meant we weren't thrilled with he mandatory reading list - but we read it and did the work.  If our every paper wasn't perfect, it was partly because we had a lot of other things to do besides write and re-write papers about books we didn't even enjoy reading.  I assume that's true today too.  And there have always been some students who were ill-prepared for college, so they were graded accordingly and they learned (or didn't).  Actually I suspect that the prevalence of dropouts/GED takers in college was higher in past years than it is nowadays.

 

My uncle is a podiatrist, and he swears he never read a single book in all his student years.  He probably isn't the only one.

[kiwik]

I don't want to criticize your husband, exactly, but you can point to professors for the past 50 years having noted the same thing as your husband - somehow, it's all gone downhill since they started teaching! Rarely, however, have those professors had the foresight to take notes before they noticed how awful things were.

 

I don't believe we've been making this remarkable slide for the past 3 generations. I think humans, including professors, have a tendency to romanticize the past.

 

Or maybe they didn't moan where the professor could hear them before. 

 

And I don't know MathMarm I get pretty funny looks when I say I don't like music.  Although it is not so much that I don't like music just that I would rather spend my money on books.

Edited January 18, 2016 by kiwik

[luuknam]

Yeah, that doesn't make any sense at all.  Also, what is "buried in boxes"?  I ran out of book shelf space so I have paperbacks in movie/photo storage boxes stacked on top of a bookshelf and on a high shelf along the living room ceiling.  I can grab a footstool and have them down in 2 minutes.  Does that mean they don't count?

 

I assume "buried in boxes" means in the basement/attic/etc where they're not readily accessible. I've got books in boxes in a closet - I'm not sure what books, it's a hassle to get to them, so I don't touch them. I really should deal with them, since they've been in those boxes in the closet since we moved 3 years ago (I've over time dug *some* of the books out, but there are still plenty of books in boxes in the closet that just don't see the daylight. Books that have been in boxes hidden away since a move or w/e might as well not exist for many purposes, including the author's.

[athomeontheprairie]

My dh teaches at a local tech college. Lack of reading comprehension by the students is one of the professors biggest difficulties. the manuals used in our local industries are written at a 12th grade reading level. many of their publishers are working to lower the reading level of the manuals to an eighth grade reading level to accommodate students who cannot understand the manuals. These are not manuals that are only used by students, these are the manuals that are used by professionals in the field. Part of this downward trend in reading level has to do with the number of students that are esl. However in my husband's department out of 40 students only two Fit in that category. And we'll over half are getting remedial help at the college.

 

 

I work for a library, and our school district requires a certain number of ar books. with my boy population , they will not check out a book that has more than say 200 pages. the diary of a Wimpy kid is the longest book in the library that the boys will read. there have been some really great books on her shelf, that they picked up they been interested in, and then "oh way too many pages" and back on the shelf it goes. There are very few student readers in my library that are willing to push themselves.

[SKL]

As for taking inventory of books in my house, I don't keep books just to look or feel bookish.  Most grown-up books I read once and then give away.  I'm usually reading one book at any given time, and the others that I have are tucked away because I don't like clutter.  We don't have a set of encyclopedias etc. like when I was a kid, because the internet replaces the need for that.

 

I do have thousands of kids' books, which are kept in the basement or in my kids' bedroom.  I used to be a collector, and now my kid is a book fiend.  But when my slower reader is beyond those books, out they go.  Less is more.  My younger sister gets most of them, so I guess she would fail the "how many books in your house did you buy" test.  Whatever.

 

We have some very nice "coffee table books" displayed in our dining room.  Does that make us literate?

 

I do love reading, but I didn't know I had to arrange my house a certain way to prove it.

[SKL]

Another thing to consider is that college is more accessible now to people who are more sciency but have verbal difficulties.  Is that a bad thing?

 

My dad is a good example IMO.  He is severely dyslexic but has a gifted IQ and lots of technical aptitude.  He learned to read (not very well but enough to study the Bible) when he was 30.  He got his GED and then went for his associate's in engineering, where he had the top GPA when he graduated.  He has read some books for leisure / intellectual purposes, but it is hard for him and gets harder as he gets older.  Is his story a success or a tragedy?  I think it is a success. 

 

IMO people who read a lot and enjoy it should really count their blessings rather than look down their noses at those who read less.

[athomeontheprairie]

 

IMO people who read a lot and enjoy it should really count their blessings rather than look down their noses at those who read less.

I think this is very wise. But as an avid reader, it's not that I look down my nose and those who don't read much, it's that I want them to be able to experience the joy reading can bring.

[shawthorne44]

...

I don't know what the standards are like where you are, but I can look up NYS English Regents online for the past 50 years or so. I had no idea this resource was available until I googled, but here it is! It's worth noting that until relatively recently, less able students had the option of taking the RCT instead of the Regents, or obtaining a "local diploma", so comparing the Regents from 1980 to the Regents from today may give the false impression that standards have dropped when really, the Regents used to be for more advanced students. The RCTs are not available online. Perhaps it would be better to compare old AP exams...?....

 

 

In a book on reading (I can't remember the title, but I think many would recognize it), it included sections from the same standardized achievement test from the 60's, 80's and today.  it was shocking!   I showed them to my boss who has three school-aged kids and asked her to guess what grade levels they were for.  

60's = 9th grade

80's = 3rd or 4th grade

today = 1st or 2nd grade.  

 

They were ALL 3rd grade.  Supposedly the same test.  

 

 

Related note, about a year ago same boss was spitting tacks about her son's English class.  At the highly rated public school, which people pay a much higher property tax to live near, the 7th grade honors English class was required to read ONE assigned book for the entire year.  The non-honors English class had the same book read to them in class.  

[SKL]

I think this is very wise. But as an avid reader, it's not that I look down my nose and those who don't read much, it's that I want them to be able to experience the joy reading can bring.

 

I'd like wheelchair-bound kids to experience the joy of back handsprings, but it might not be "joy" for them to try to accomplish that.

 

My dad had so many bad experiences with "reading" all his life, I can't imagine him ever saying the words "joy" and "reading" in the same sentence.

[ReadingMama1214]

When I was in high school, my reading was pretty much all classics. Nowadays I hear not just teens but also many adults talking about reading "young adult" fiction, which is what I would consider middle school level stuff. If many prospective college students consider those "young adult" story books to be prep for college literature and composition, then I can understand the difference (if there is one).

 

But as for moaning and groaning, well, we did it in college 30 years ago. It didn't mean we couldn't read, it meant we weren't thrilled with he mandatory reading list - but we read it and did the work. If our every paper wasn't perfect, it was partly because we had a lot of other things to do besides write and re-write papers about books we didn't even enjoy reading. I assume that's true today too. And there have always been some students who were ill-prepared for college, so they were graded accordingly and they learned (or didn't). Actually I suspect that the prevalence of dropouts/GED takers in college was higher in past years than it is nowadays.

 

My uncle is a podiatrist, and he swears he never read a single book in all his student years. He probably isn't the only one.

The reading requirements in high school are one of the reasons we are homeschooling or putting our kids in classical high school. I have no issue with Harry Potter in the home, but I do in an honors level English lit class when it's one of many books of a similar vein.

[ReadingMama1214]

In a book on reading (I can't remember the title, but I think many would recognize it), it included sections from the same standardized achievement test from the 60's, 80's and today. it was shocking! I showed them to my boss who has three school-aged kids and asked her to guess what grade levels they were for.

60's = 9th grade

80's = 3rd or 4th grade

today = 1st or 2nd grade.

 

They were ALL 3rd grade. Supposedly the same test.

 

 

Related note, about a year ago same boss was spitting tacks about her son's English class. At the highly rated public school, which people pay a much higher property tax to live near, the 7th grade honors English class was required to read ONE assigned book for the entire year. The non-honors English class had the same book read to them in class.

Do you know what the name of the book was? I'd be interested in reading it. I was talking to a teacher friend and she expressed similar concerns. While the pressure to get kids reading has increased, overall reading level appears to have decreased. Our state just implemented a new reading test and I've heard horror stories.

[Lb20inblue]

I wonder if decrease literacy has something to do with changing expectations. When I was a kid, in the 80s/90s, we were expected to learn the basics (math, reading, writing) and not worry about extras (computer skills typewriting, coding) until maybe 7th grade. Now kids are expected to learn how to navigate laptops and tablets by kindergarten.

[SKL]

While the pressure to get kids reading has increased, overall reading level appears to have decreased.

 

There is a push for quantity which, for many kids at least, is naturally going to compromise quality.

 

In my recollection, I thoroughly enjoyed reading for fun at elementary age, but I don't remember reading a lot of books.  I remember really interacting with the books I did read.  Now elementary kids are incentivized to read dozens or even hundreds of books a year, on their own time, in addition to school work, music, sports, etc.  How deeply can these kids be reading into the historical settings, author's intent, character development, etc?  I am sure it varies, but how much is realistic for the average child?

 

[ReadingMama1214]

I wonder if decrease literacy has something to do with changing expectations. When I was a kid, in the 80s/90s, we were expected to learn the basics (math, reading, writing) and not worry about extras (computer skills typewriting, coding) until maybe 7th grade. Now kids are expected to learn how to navigate laptops and tablets by kindergarten.

It could be. I wish I had time to research this all!

 

Dd might go to a classical school. During K all they do for academics is RIGGS, math, and basic science concepts. The focus of K is to get them introduced to RIGGS.

 

I can't imagine dd using a computer. Her hands are so tiny that even on the kids computers at the library, she has a hard time with the mouse. She definitely wouldn't be able to properly type!

 

Losing the focus on fundamentals and a move towards technology makes me sad. Of course learning technology is important, but is class time necessary when most families use it regularly?

[ReadingMama1214]

There is a push for quantity which, for many kids at least, is naturally going to compromise quality.

 

In my recollection, I thoroughly enjoyed reading for fun at elementary age, but I don't remember reading a lot of books. I remember really interacting with the books I did read. Now elementary kids are incentivized to read dozens or even hundreds of books a year, on their own time, in addition to school work, music, sports, etc. How deeply can these kids be reading into the historical settings, author's intent, character development, etc? I am sure it varies, but how much is realistic for the average child?

 

I read a lot as well. And got into the story. I still do. It's my escape. But, I read a variety of twaddle and classics. At 9, I was obsessed with Dickens and with Babysitters Club. I don't have an issue with twaddle at home, but I hurt for kids who are reading it for school. And I agree that it does appear to be a quantity versus quality issue.

[regentrude]

I think this is very wise. But as an avid reader, it's not that I look down my nose and those who don't read much, it's that I want them to be able to experience the joy reading can bring.

 

I do not think it is a sensible goal to expect everybody to develop joy in reading.

It is, however, a sensible goal to expect everybody to develop the ability to read and comprehend the texts they come across.

 

 

[wapiti]

I suppose what my oldest is experiencing in private school doesn't count for this discussion, but for my next two, I have no issue with what they are reading and the pace, for two different public charter schools (my rough understanding is that our regular public middle school would be similar, though I don't know for sure).  For example, my 7th graders are reading Lord of the Flies right now - I think I read that in 8th.

 

My kids don't read for pleasure often in spite of extremely full bookshelves and trips to the library.  These days the bulk of my reading involves online medical articles and such.  My dh prefers historical nonfiction for the most part; his kindle is permanently attached to his body.

 

While the schools here include technology as a weekly "special," there isn't a ton of tech required for regular schoolwork in the early grades.  It becomes a requirement in middle school.  While I originally wasn't too thrilled with the idea, my dd prefers her iPad to print books most of the time, as she can adjust the text size.  My older kids have dysgraphic tendencies and typing has been really great for them.  Most of their writing assignments are turned in online or printed out before dashing out the door.

 

Reading comprehension skill variations present complicated questions that go well beyond required literature reading, though it seems that practice with literature should be helpful training for understanding language across genres.

 

ETA, FWIW, I did not enjoy studying literature in high school and truly don't think I got much out of even the reading, poor instruction aside.  However, I loved law school, which surely improved my reading comprehension skills to a far greater degree.

Edited January 18, 2016 by wapiti

[mathmarm]

I'd like wheelchair-bound kids to experience the joy of back handsprings, but it might not be "joy" for them to try to accomplish that.

 

My dad had so many bad experiences with "reading" all his life, I can't imagine him ever saying the words "joy" and "reading" in the same sentence.

Don't be too quick to judge, you may very likely hear your dad say "I find no particular joy in reading". :D

 

[Bluegoat]

My dh has taught at a Canadian university for the last 20 years, and he says that he's encountered the exact same things as the author of this article; students moan about having to read anything, and their writing has deteriorated from adequate (20 years ago) to poor.  

 

FYI, the institution the prof teaches at (Royal Military College) is our Canadian equivalent to West Point in the US. It's not your average college. Standards to enter are VERY high, and the students are also training military officers. These are not unmotivated young people at all. 

 

My university prof friends say the same thing.  The students are not well read, and they don't have well-developed reading skills.  They can't read - or won't - the amount of material they used to.

 

I remember in particular one conversation with a woman who is a literature prof.  She is finding students not only are very slow, they don't seem to be competent at being able to read something and then tell what the argument being made is - they can't outline what was said, summarize it, or even identify the main point they are meant to be getting out of it.  Their own writing tends to be fragmented and meandering.

 

I read this article earlier today - it's somewhat meandering too, but I found some of his personal observations to the point - particularly that the students largely don't bother to read the assigned texts.  It reminded me of the thread on the purpose of college. The idea that the classroom process was largely meant for show really resonated with the idea that most expressed that the main purpose was a job qualification of some kind.  I also thought the part on online classes was very interesting.