Texas Case Mulls if Home-school Kids Have to Learn Something

[Jean in Newcastle]

Yes... This is such a huge tangent...

 

I think it gets to one of the bad arguments that people often present in defense of poor homeschooling: I don't have to do a good job because the state doesn't do a good job. In this case: They don't need to teach content subjects well because Texas does such a bad job with them. I may agree with criticisms of the schools, but this argument is not logical. If children deserve an education, then they do. Just like you can't defend yourself against a charge of theft by saying someone else also committed theft, you can't defend bad homeschooling by complaining about the state of schools.

 

But the case is not arguing that the family taught everything but science and history.  They are arguing that they did not provide an education - period.  

The article is about a homeschool family in Texas where according to Texas homeschool regulations posted above, science and history are not required to be taught.  There is a connection.

The connection is tenuous.  They said that they used a curriculum used in private schools - not even one designed in Texas or used exclusively in Texas.  

[SparklyUnicorn]

Not really. We don't unschool, but our IHIP runs "We intend to educate $CHILD in all required subjects, including but not limited to $LIST_OF_REQUIRED_SUBJECTS". Then our quarterly reports go "$CHILD has completed 80% or more of all coursework in required subjects for this period".

 

Yeah my district would not accept that.

[EmseB]

The article is about a homeschool family in Texas where according to Texas homeschool regulations posted above, science and history are not required to be taught.  There is a connection.

 

Except that most content subjects (History and Science) are taught "from scratch" starting in high school.  And Texas requires high school credits in those subjects in order to graduate.  So the generalization is not entirely accurate.

 

I don't think the connection you want to make is there.  It's quite a reach at the very least.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Exactly, I am in NY as well and I have lovely shiny IHIPs and quarterlies but the only proof they get is a possible 6 standardized tests over the entire course of education. They can require the cert teacher to do review/testing, though, which it seems more schools are insisting on.

 

I do like the homeschool panel option- the only way to avoid a cert teacher if you're in my district- although I was a reviewer for a non-compliant family recently, and that made me nervous.

 

I have not yet met anyone who was required to go the certified teacher route. 

 

A few people in my area have come together though to form a peer review panel to sign off on paperwork (I'm one of them).  That has helped a few people with difficult districts.

[HS Mom in NC]

Unschooling

 

I was part of an unschooling group of dozens of families because my oldest was close friends with several of them and the group was very inclusive.  Most were doing academics well because most of their kids started and completed college early (by age 20.) One kid was college ready at 12 but none of the colleges, including community colleges allowed kids younger than 13 to attend. It was odd in that group to not take college classes when most kids would be in high school. There were a couple who I suspected were not doing academics at all, but only looking at it one day a month from the sidelines wasn't enough to go on to report it.  I have no philosophical problem with reporting educational neglect, but I've never been in a situation where I had anything beyond a suspicion, which isn't enough to even consider reporting.

 

Voluntary Testing and Homeschool Diplomas

It's people like the ones in the article that reaffirm my decision to not issue homeschool diplomas until my kids test into all college level classes at the local community college.  That's the placement test every person attending there has to take whether they have a state issued diploma or not, so I thought it was a fair assessment.  Oldest (17 at the time) tested into all college level classes when she and middle (15) tested in April (the only test they'd ever taken in their lives.)  So, her homeschool diploma is dated for a typical graduation date in May. Middle daughter (15) choked on the written part of the test and skipped it entirely, knowing she could retest within 24 hours. It placed her in the ENG 95 class, which is a high school level class.  She could either retest the next day into ENG 101 or she could take the ENG 95 class and after passing it, take ENG 101.  I talked her out of retaking the test and just taking the ENG 95 class because it's her weakest subject and I thought she could use the practice.  It's no shame to take a high school level class when you're 15.  She took the 95 class, got an A, THEN I issued her homeschool diploma from the next logical graduation date.  If anyone questions if my kids are graduated based on "mom grades" alone, I can always point out that my kids were college ready based on the college's assessment and I have the test scores to prove it. It's worth noting a shocking percentage of kids with government issue diplomas are not testing into all college level classes and most people are not questioning the validity of their diplomas.

 

Do I know that most homeschoolers who issue high school diplomas are doing it based on their own legitimate assessments?  Yes!  But I like the idea that a credible, independent party has validated what I already knew, which should carry weight with people who are completely ignorant of or misinformed about what most of homeschooling is like. Should all homeschools be required to test by an outside entity?  No.  Are there other valid ways of getting an outside assessment? Yes!  I do strongly suggest homeschooling parents think about the mindset of people outside the homeschooling community and how an outside assessment of some sort down the road could be useful.  Those outside assessments of different sorts can also be valuable inside a homeschool over the years.  I don't want homeschoolers forced into it, but I think taking it into practical, unemotional consideration is something every homeschooling parent should do. There may be times taking a standardized test could be helpful to homeschooled kids and parents throughout the years in some situations.

 

I'm not for regulation, but if I had to compromise, I think states that require a few tests over the years where the results are sent to the parents are the most reasonable.  That way the parents can never say, "I didn't know my kids was so far behind." The people in the article are people who would go under the radar no matter what any state required.  These are clearly whack jobs.  The Bible says no one knows when Jesus is coming back.  It also says Christians have to obey the law unless it requires violating God's law.  God's laws do not forbid anything resembling teaching academics to minor children.

[Farrar]

I have not yet met anyone who was required to go the certified teacher route.

 

A few people in my area have come together though to form a peer review panel to sign off on paperwork (I'm one of them). That has helped a few people with difficult districts.

You mean in NY, you can have a homeschool peer review panel deal with people who the state is having trouble with? That's sort of brilliant.

[texasmama]

This family is clearly on the fringe.  Most people do not "homeschool" like this.  It is not possible to determine from the article exactly what schooling has taken place.

 

What is the answer here?  More regulation?  At what cost and to what benefit?  

 

The "more regulation" argument reminds me of the mammogram arguments.  Where does the research lead us?  As a homeschooler and as someone invested in education, I want to know if the highly regulated states have better outcomes.  There are so many variables that it is difficult to measure.  Much like the "get your mammogram and save the tatas" rhetoric, the "regulate the homeschoolers so they don't fail to educate properly" rhetoric needs to be based on solid information and not just aimed towards making the general public feel better about avoiding cancer or educating kids.

 

These are circular arguments because there are no well-defined answers.

[Miss Mousie]

It's the same in CO--if you're out, you'e out. We even had one family with a 10th grader who was informed that the child would be starting in K. 

 

I just can't imagine that scenario even making it to the first day of school.  Surely many parents would sound the alarms when they find out their 5-yr-olds will be sitting next to a 15-yr-old.  And what if the K teacher grades on a curve?  ;)

 

I'd love to know if anyone has ever tested this rule....

[umsami]

This family is clearly on the fringe.  Most people do not "homeschool" like this.  It is not possible to determine from the article exactly what schooling has taken place.

 

What is the answer here?  More regulation?  At what cost and to what benefit?  

 

The "more regulation" argument reminds me of the mammogram arguments.  Where does the research lead us?  As a homeschooler and as someone invested in education, I want to know if the highly regulated states have better outcomes.  There are so many variables that it is difficult to measure.  Much like the "get your mammogram and save the tatas" rhetoric, the "regulate the homeschoolers so they don't fail to educate properly" rhetoric needs to be based on solid information and not just aimed towards making the general public feel better about avoiding cancer or educating kids.

 

These are circular arguments because there are no well-defined answers.

 

I would love to know this, too.  I've seen this infographics that talk about how homeschoolers perform, but I'd love to see somebody do a better study.  I wonder if anybody is working on this because of homeschooling's growth.  The thing that would be difficult would be to match up students regarding income, IQ, learning challenges (if any), etc.  

[texasmama]

I would love to know this, too. I've seen this infographics that talk about how homeschoolers perform, but I'd love to see somebody do a better study. I wonder if anybody is working on this because of homeschooling's growth. The thing that would be difficult would be to match up students regarding income, IQ, learning challenges (if any), etc.

I cannot imagine a study being designed that could control for all of the variables, but I would love to know the answer to the high regulation vs. low regulation states and outcomes.

[albeto.]

I guess you haven't followed the controversies regarding how Texas pressures the large textbook companies to change history and science.  When I say ignore...I mean ignore commonly held facts...

 

I interpret this as the essence of the problem - recognizing the value of facts, whether they're commonly held or not. Instead, we are creating and fostering a society in which personal beliefs are allowed to trump facts, and the defiance of those facts are sometimes sanctioned by the state, and certainly by society. To promote the idea that teaching an demonstrably erroneous belief is detrimental to a child's education is to potentially ring one's political, social, or professional death knell. We live in a society in which self-appointed educational certification doesn't seem to matter to the public at large, where those vying to lead the nation proudly value belief over fact, and where even education itself has become indistinguishable from personal belief, and civil leaders openly appeal to the god of the bible for favors, and forgiveness, in spite of a very glaring lack of evidence that ever works. 

 

For personal reasons, I take issue with the idea that this is about unschooling. It doesn't matter if the children learned their lessons from workbooks (from which there are plenty to choose), or informal, natural learning through play. What matters is the lessons they learn. The accusation here seems to be the lessons these children have learned focus on being ready for a particular Semitic/Roman demigod to come down through the clouds to wreak havoc on those who never trusted and loved him enough to avoid his wrath, sparing only those who believe in faith certain stories about him are true, in lieu of learning appropriate skills needed to function as an independent adult in society. Only evidence (ha) will accurately determine if this accusation is appropriately made. This family lives in a region in which personal belief is often enough acceptable as a means of knowledge, so who knows if they'll even get a fair trial (fair meaning unbiased by opinions and personal belief, oy vey). Whether or not they are found innocent or guilty of the accusations made against them, I find the bold part of your comment far more disquieting. For me, this isn't a matter of Texas, or unschooling, or even religion, it's a matter of a deeply held belief being held in higher value than fact in the arena of education, and what that effect has on society at large (hint, this family is a symptom of that effect). 

[SparklyUnicorn]

You mean in NY, you can have a homeschool peer review panel deal with people who the state is having trouble with? That's sort of brilliant.

 

Well it's not as good as it sounds.  This only refers to doing the written narrative (allowed for certain grades only in place of a standardized test). 

This is the wording:

 

(iii) for the purposes of this paragraph, the person who prepares the written narrative shall be a New York State certified teacher, a home instruction peer group review panel, or other person, who has interviewed the child and reviewed a portfolio of the child's work. Such person shall certify either that the child has made adequate academic progress or that the child has failed to make adequate progress. In the event that such child has failed to make adequate progress, the home instruction program shall be placed on probation pursuant to subdivision (i) of this section. The certified teacher, peer review panel, or other person shall be chosen by the parent with the consent of the superintendent. Any resulting cost shall be borne by the parent.

[Lanny]

Terribly sad for the children of that couple.  What will they do if the world doesn't end and they are illiterate adults?  One of the fundamental rights of children is an education. 

[Violet Crown]

Didn't Violet Crown post about this case back when the appeals court released its decision? As I recall, that decision hinged on the 'bona fide' requirement, with the court holding that the school district is the entity that gets to decide whether a homeschool is 'bona fide.'

 

I wonder what has happened since then? I remember that the court was pretty emphatic that the plaintiffs did not have the right to simply bypass the district's administrative process and run straight to court (with their out-of-state lawyers). I'd be surprised if the Texas Supreme Court is any more sympathetic to those claims -- liberal or conservative, judges tend not to be terribly enthusiastic about loading up their dockets.

Here's the thread:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/525125-texas-court-radically-changing-homeschool-law/

 

A few points (not made to you, Jenny, as I know you know all this). There's no homeschooling statute in Texas, only case law: the Leeper case decided by the Texas Supreme Court.

 

Leeper was decided in a context where the Texas Education Agency had decided the compulsory education law didn't allow homeschooling, and homeschoolers were being prosecuted for truancy. The Supreme Court found that, at the time (1920's) that the compulsory attendance law was passed, there were many children being educated at home, and that they had been considered to be attending private schools so long as they were being taught the "3 R's" and good citizenship. These children had always been considered exempt under the compulsory schooling law.

 

So the Court found that the status quo was that homeschooling was exempt, and that it couldn't now be considered not exempt. The absence of science has nothing to do with anti-science attitudes in Texas; it's just what a good-enough education was a hundred years ago. Since the SC declined to create a homeschooling law, it didn't add subject requirements.

 

Anyway, the problem is that no agency was defined in Leeper as having the authority to determine that the education in a homeschool is "bona fide." But in defaulting to the ISD as the appropriate authority, the El Paso appellate court (in my view) eviscerates Leeper. It was the ISDs in the '80s and '90s that had decided homeschooling wasn't a real education in the first place. To read Leeper as making those same ISDs the arbiters of who gets to qualify as a real homeschooler is to take the Supreme Court victory away from the homeschoolers and hand it to the TEA.

 

ETA: Yes, this is a very unappealing family. But the SC isn't deciding whether they are crackpots, or if they were giving their kids a real education, or passing judgment on any of the juicy allegations. They're deciding whether my ISD gets to go over my curriculum and decide whether my kids are getting a "bona fide" education, or whether instead the ISD should be getting the funding for my special-needs child's education.

[Farrar]

Well it's not as good as it sounds.  This only refers to doing the written narrative (allowed for certain grades only in place of a standardized test). 

This is the wording:

 

(iii) for the purposes of this paragraph, the person who prepares the written narrative shall be a New York State certified teacher, a home instruction peer group review panel, or other person, who has interviewed the child and reviewed a portfolio of the child's work. Such person shall certify either that the child has made adequate academic progress or that the child has failed to make adequate progress. In the event that such child has failed to make adequate progress, the home instruction program shall be placed on probation pursuant to subdivision (i) of this section. The certified teacher, peer review panel, or other person shall be chosen by the parent with the consent of the superintendent. Any resulting cost shall be borne by the parent.

 

It's still an interesting approach and one I haven't heard of in other states. I sort of like it... I mean, one of my complaints about a state like PA or MD and the way they do reviews of homeschoolers is that the people doing the reviews often know nothing about homeschoolers. Of course, there are umbrellas in a lot of states like that, but maybe not all. And I like the idea of this as a middle ground - people who "get" homeschooling but can also look over what a child has done and also more than one person so it's not just a single perspective.

[Butter]

The article is about a homeschool family in Texas where according to Texas homeschool regulations posted above, science and history are not required to be taught.  There is a connection.

 

Barely.  Many states don't require specific subjects and of those that do, not all require science and history.  It is far from a Texas thing.

 

ETA: Even if they required science and history it doesn't mean they'd teach it the way you'd like them to.  I used to live in MD and science and history *are* required subjects there.  There is no requirement for how it is taught or what is taught.  Simply that they are taught.  I knew plenty of families there who refuse to teach evolution because "it's not real" and teach that no matter what scientists say humans are NOT classified as primates because we are children of God and that's the only classification we need.  I knew families who teach their kids that the Civil War was *only* about state's rights and slavery was just a distraction.  They pass their reviews just fine because most superintendent's designees aren't actually looking at what the kids are being taught, just that they are being taught.  I lived in probably the easiest county in the state.  He'd literally flip through the portfolio and send us on our way (or just do a phone call where they said "Are you teaching the required subjects?" "Yes." "Are you maintaining a portfolio we could request to look at at any time?" "Yes." "Great, don't forget to fill out the card indicating these things in the fall and we'll arrange a phone call time next spring.").  Without a requirement for what is covered, there will always be people all over the country who teach unsound science and incorrect history.  I don't think anyone wants states to tell us how and what to teach within subjects, though.

[1bassoon]

 

-letting little Suzy (age 8) drop math because she didn't like it, and she wants to be a midwife so she won't need it anyway. 

-what to do when CPS comes

-kids will learn at their own pace, it's a fact.  Johnny (age 15) just saw the need to get things underway and finished up 4th grade last year.

-it's crazy to think kids need more than a worksheet for each subject (math, language arts) each day.  Especially high school juniors.

-don't keep records!  You don't have to, so you really shouldn't!

 

I currently am working with a student in my chemistry tutorial who fits part of this description. I think I'm getting a little - jaded - on homeschooling lately. I've seen too many examples of parents dropping the ball on their kids for me to continue to hold the mantra I used to when I was younger, "Homeschooling is a parental right! No one should tell them how to do it!"

i want to believe that still, but. . . . . .. I guess I've just seen a lot.

[Ellie]

Except that most content subjects (History and Science) are taught "from scratch" starting in high school.  And Texas requires high school credits in those subjects in order to graduate.  So the generalization is not entirely accurate.

 

To be clear, there are no requirements for private school students to be graduated (homeschools are considered private schools).

[LucyStoner]

I cannot imagine a study being designed that could control for all of the variables, but I would love to know the answer to the high regulation vs. low regulation states and outcomes.

Such an endeavor would also have a selection/sampling dilemma. Those actually neglecting their children's education (possible in either low or high regulation states) are how likely to participate in such a study? If you are looking at alums how do you find a truly random sample or control for the vastly different approaches even a single family could take over the course of several years of homeschooling.

[Farrar]

I suspect that in a random sampling of homeschoolers in a state with high regs versus no/very low regs the test scores and general outcomes (numbers going to college, going to elite colleges, financial success down the road, etc. etc.) would be extremely similar.

 

But I also suspect that for kids who are truly being educationally neglected, that the outcomes are at least a little worse in states with no regs vs states with high. That's a small slice of homeschoolers, so the overall numbers are going to be similar (again, just a guess) but I suspect that having to jump through those hoops probably actually does eliminate some educational neglect. And that's something the homeschool community simply does not want to admit.

[Tsuga]

Such an endeavor would also have a selection/sampling dilemma. Those actually neglecting their children's education (possible in either low or high regulation states) are how likely to participate in such a study? If you are looking at alums how do you find a truly random sample or control for the vastly different approaches even a single family could take over the course of several years of homeschooling.

 

Not to mention, many highly confounding variables such as the sort of states that choose not to regulate homeschooling vs. those which do regulate it, and so on.

 

Washington regulates everything but my gosh at least if a child wants to enter public high school they are not going to have to go through a public humiliation (starting in 9th at 17 or 18) to do it, unless they really test at that level!

 

So I guess if you're in Texas and want that choice you could always move to Washington or some other performance-based state and enter your kids there.

[Farrar]

Otoh, I would guess that those intent on educational neglect would just fly under the radar in high-reg states. So I would assume high-reg vs low-reg really ultimately makes no difference in educational neglect rates. (Guessing???)

 

Maybe. But then if they're caught then they're more likely to be in trouble. I've known a couple of under the radar families and I was just like, you're nuts. Please register for everyone's sake.

[Daria]

Shouldn't the title say "Texas case mulls if homeschool kids have be taught something"?  You can have good teaching and kids can still fail to learn due to LDs or even refusal to listen.  The issue before the state is whether they are being taught.  

 

I would disagree.  Part of good teaching is capturing the interest of your students, accommodating their special needs.  The same exact lesson taught the same exact way might be "good teaching" for one kid and "attrocious teaching" for another.  That doesn't mean that they might not learn at a different pace, or even need to learn different things altogether, but if, at the end of the year, you can't point to a single something and say "my kid learned that this year", then you probably should consider sending your child to brick and mortar school.

 

On the other hand, if you unschool, and your kids are learning a ton but you didn't teach them any of it, I'd say you're good to continue.  

[HS Mom in NC]

Otoh, I would guess that those intent on educational neglect would just fly under the radar in high-reg states. So I would assume high-reg vs low-reg really ultimately makes no difference in educational neglect rates. (Guessing???)

I suspect you're right about this.  Remember that those intent on educational neglect are people with very little regard for civil law whether they're people who physically abuse/neglect kids or people who educationally neglect kids out of bizarre religious convictions.    We've seen them around her a time or two.  When CPS starts sniffing around they move somewhere else.

 

My husband's aunt had to deal with that in ps too.  She went to meet with parents (they weren't expecting her) of a terribly struggling 8th grade student and she realized she was probably interrupting the daughter being prostituted.  She reported it that day so an investigation could begin it but the family moved away the next day.  They moved around a lot.

[December]

It would be nearly impossible to accurately study homeschooled students in high reg states vs. low reg states because how many people in high reg states choose not to homeschool because it just seems like too much trouble?  My MIL was like this. For most of my husband's childhood he lived in Pennsylvania.  MIL always wanted to homeschool but taking on PA homeschool regulations was more than she could handle.  When they moved to a lower regulation state, she started homeschooling. Completely neglected her kids' education.    But had she stayed in PA and never homeschooled, then her kids would have been missed by any such study trying to compare high reg states and low reg states.

[umsami]

Found a good updated story which gives more details....  http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/11/02/1443509/-Court-hears-case-of-home-schoolers-who-didn-t-teach-their-kids-because-they-expected-to-be-raptured?detail=facebook

 

In January 2006, the District received an anonymous complaint that the McIntyre children were not being educated. In November, Gene and Shirene met with Mark Mendoza, the District’s designated attendance officer, and expressed concerns that their grandchildren were not attending school or otherwise receiving a proper education. After the meeting, Mendoza confirmed that the oldest of the McIntyre children, Tori, had run away from home at age seventeen so she could “attend school.†He discovered that when Tori enrolled at Coronado High School, she was unable to provide any information regarding the level of her education or the curriculum provided as part of her home school education. The McIntyres refused to provide any information to the District on Tori’s behalf. As a result, Tori was placed as a second semester freshman, a year and a half behind her age group.

 

 

Kids were in private school until 2004.

 

Wasn't just the brother who complained but also grandparents.  

[Murphy101]

Found a good updated story which gives more details.... http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/11/02/1443509/-Court-hears-case-of-home-schoolers-who-didn-t-teach-their-kids-because-they-expected-to-be-raptured?detail=facebook

 

In January 2006, the District received an anonymous complaint that the McIntyre children were not being educated. In November, Gene and Shirene met with Mark Mendoza, the District’s designated attendance officer, and expressed concerns that their grandchildren were not attending school or otherwise receiving a proper education. After the meeting, Mendoza confirmed that the oldest of the McIntyre children, Tori, had run away from home at age seventeen so she could “attend school.†He discovered that when Tori enrolled at Coronado High School, she was unable to provide any information regarding the level of her education or the curriculum provided as part of her home school education. The McIntyres refused to provide any information to the District on Tori’s behalf. As a result, Tori was placed as a second semester freshman, a year and a half behind her age group.

 

Kids were in private school until 2004.

 

Wasn't just the brother who complained but also grandparents.

Even if her parents used their rights to refuse to keep or give school related paperwork that was not required by law, and one wonders what exactly would have been acceptable and was being demanded of them - how dadblum hard could it possibly be to give the kid a placement exam instead of dumping her in 9th grade?

 

Schools have placement assessments for just about everything. I find it diifcult to comprehend why they didn't just give her one and place her as her progress on it indicated. All they really needed to access was math and reading and writing ability.

 

I don't care where the complaint came from. This is a fairly simple thing to assess and they are making statements as though they just don't know what to do. That's rather ridiculous to me.

[umsami]

Yes, you would think they could give her a math test and have her do a writing sample.

 

My guess is that the school district asked for samples of the curricula, and when the parents didn't comply....they punished the daughter rather than the parents.  

 

Although I do find it strange that their daughter could not provide any information.  My kids are much younger and they can tell you what their math book is called, etc.

[Farrar]

But who should have a right to the educational records of a 17 yo? Honestly, I think the 17 yo in question should.

[umsami]

I'm curious as to what happened with Tori.  She'd be about 25 or 26 now I think.  As she ran away to get an education, I really hope she succeeded.  Wonder if she blogs on Homeschoolers Anonymous.  

[Murphy101]

But who should have a right to the educational records of a 17 yo? Honestly, I think the 17 yo in question should.

One, there's no requirement to keep records to begin with.

 

Two, records don't access learning anyways. I could give you an excellent booklist and transcript and it would tell you nada about what my child's stored knowledge is about any given subject. In theory, *maybe* an ITBS or ACT/SAT might do that, but there's no requirement to do that either. Also, the testing is rather useless the first round bc it doesn't have a baseline. It's how they progress when they take the second test that's really going to say if they are learning anything new. And since the question is about learning, rather than teaching, that's the key information.

 

These things prove someone checked paperwork boxes, not that learning happened.

 

The ONLY thing a student can get in my state schools is their transcript and even that held if they have fees or whatever when they graduate and they have to pay for a copy of it. So it would appear to me that the state does not agree with you about students having a right (or at least not a free and easy access) to their educational records.

 

If it matters, my kids all receive their transcript and diploma when they graduate. Plus a spare copy jic. I also have one copy jic I should for some obscure reason need to give them another. I'm not posting any of this bc I necessarily disagree with you about letting my kids see some of the stuff I *voluntarily* make or keep about their education, but simply pointing out that it's not a legal requirement and even if it was, it isn't necessarily a barometer of learning either.

 

But these claims by the high school is simply BS. I don't buy for one second they couldn't figure out how to give her an assessment for proper placement. Most schools do that regardless of paperwork. Even many colleges require it. Worst case scenario they could have had her take a residual ACT and used those results.

[Farrar]

Honestly, the more I hear other homeschoolers argue about how their own kids don't have any right to information to prove they were educated the more I think CRHE is in the right on this.

 

The idea that you don't have the right to get your own transcript and test scores is absurd. You pay a small processing fee, just like you do for your birth certificate, which you also have a right to, and numerous other documents kept by the state. And those things are there for you if you need them, end stop. There is no such protection in place for homeschooled kids, who are at the whim of whether their parents feel like drawing up records if they wish to attend another school or college.

[Sneezyone]

You may not have a right to your final transcript but every school I or my children have ever attended will allow you to look up an unofficial copy online and/or give a paper copy at the end of every term. Having nothing at all to show what a child has mastered over years is bizarre to me.

[Murphy101]

Honestly, the more I hear other homeschoolers argue about how their own kids don't have any right to information to prove they were educated the more I think CRHE is in the right on this.

 

The idea that you don't have the right to get your own transcript and test scores is absurd. You pay a small processing fee, just like you do for your birth certificate, which you also have a right to, and numerous other documents kept by the state. And those things are there for you if you need them, end stop. There is no such protection in place for homeschooled kids, who are at the whim of whether their parents feel like drawing up records if they wish to attend another school or college.

Is this addressed to me?

 

My kids have access to the materials I made for them. Materials I am under zero obligation legally to even make, much less give to anyone or store away. I do that bc I'm rather type A to begin with and because I have found it helpful to me and to them. And it isn't difficult anyways.

 

And public and private high schools withhold transcripts and diplomas all the time here. Usually as a last ditch effort to make the parents pay any fees accrued over the previous years.

 

I am NOT condoning withholding help from anyone.

 

I'm saying there is no legal requirement to:

 

Create paperwork

Keep paperwork

Give paperwork to others

 

And adjacent to that:

 

The question was not about paperwork. The question was about whether "learning should be mandated" and paperwork doesn't have much to do with whether learning happened.

 

Also. How much learning has to happen in order for such a mandate to be fulfilled? Is any progress acceptable? Who decided what and how much is required and what proof will be acceptable?

[Farrar]

I was thinking about the side question of the older child who apparently ran away from home to attend school. If she had run away from home because of other abuse and then tried to enter a new school as a result, she would have access to those records. Because she's homeschooled, she didn't have that.

 

I don't know... it's all tough questions. I know you're not advocating for that, Murphy, but I think a lot of the time the fallback is "we're not required by law" or that we shouldn't be required to do these things like keep records. But then this is the result - kids who can't prove they have any level of education whose hardship is made harder by not having that.

[EmseB]

Honestly, the more I hear other homeschoolers argue about how their own kids don't have any right to information to prove they were educated the more I think CRHE is in the right on this.

 

The idea that you don't have the right to get your own transcript and test scores is absurd. You pay a small processing fee, just like you do for your birth certificate, which you also have a right to, and numerous other documents kept by the state. And those things are there for you if you need them, end stop. There is no such protection in place for homeschooled kids, who are at the whim of whether their parents feel like drawing up records if they wish to attend another school or college.

 

I'm all for kids (and anyone) being able to get their hands on their own transcripts or a list of what was accomplished or a portfolio and all that, but I would find it to be pretty meaningless in any given scenario.  I went to three different high schools and I had things on my transcript and the final school I went to (for 11th and 12th grade) completely disregarded some of them and said, nope, you still have to sit in this usually-freshman history class because this one on your transcript doesn't count.  Or, we don't teach math in that sequence, so you'll need to take a semester of this stuff you've already learned in order to get equivalent graduating credits.

 

I hate to use the example, but I know someone who taught in a D.C. school and she taught calculus.  How many of the kids in her classes got credit for passing "calculus"?  And it's on their transcript?  And she would say she had basically been doing classroom management and pre-algebra for most of the year.  So for true math ability to be assessed, the students would really need...an assessment.  Community colleges have figured out how to do this quite well, actually, particularly for reading/composition and math.

[Murphy101]

You may not have a right to your final transcript but every school I or my children have ever attended will allow you to look up an unofficial copy online and/or give a paper copy at the end of every term. Having nothing at all to show what a child has mastered over years is bizarre to me.

It isn't bizarre to me. I have absolutely nothing to show what I have learned the last 22 years. Just me living my life.

 

By the time my kids graduate from home schooling, they are entering college classes as sophomores or juniors, so no one really cares much about their high school stuff. The colleges asked for one piece of paper to reflect their entire high school education. A high school transcript, which I provided. No big deal. I was kind of freaking out about it with my third last week and made the error of posting on the college board and getting more freaked out. Called the schools. Problem solved. Nothing to freak out over. (Well the typical sticker shock but not as badly as I thought it would be.)

 

I don't think it's much of a leap to go from having one sheet of paper (two if you count an ACT report) reflect 4 years of education to less than one sheet of paper.

 

The people in the case might have been right turds. I'm willing to believe those exist bc there's plenty of evidence in the general population. I'm just not even slightly impressed with these articles trying to paint them evil. Way too many simple questions not answered for me to presume anything.

[Farrar]

Colleges and schools know to read transcripts with a grain of salt or however they're supposed to do it... but like it or not, think it's good or not, that's how the world works.

 

The other day there was a (infuriating) Penelope Trunk post about how homeschoolers shouldn't bother doing portfolios. Don't worry, she said, things will just work out if you're awesome enough. Ack. Things don't work out for kids who don't have access to their own records or whatever records can be made for them. 

[Murphy101]

I was thinking about the side question of the older child who apparently ran away from home to attend school. If she had run away from home because of other abuse and then tried to enter a new school as a result, she would have access to those records. Because she's homeschooled, she didn't have that.

 

I don't know... it's all tough questions. I know you're not advocating for that, Murphy, but I think a lot of the time the fallback is "we're not required by law" or that we shouldn't be required to do these things like keep records. But then this is the result - kids who can't prove they have any level of education whose hardship is made harder by not having that.

And I would agree except that's not the case at all.

 

There is zero reason a simple placement exam could not be given to solve this problem. Heck. Lots of schools give them to students who are transferring in anyways. Because the math ability of kids transferring from one school or state to another could be different and the testing evaluation can vary some from state to state too. Not to mention foreign students attending.

[HomeAgain]

They would have started her in 9th anyway.  It's a Texas thing.  If it's not an accredited school/program, the school won't vouch that the student has passed the material to earn the credits.

[Slojo]

Texas does having education/teaching requirements, though.

 

There are only three requirements to homeschool in Texas. They are as follows:

• The curriculum must be in visual form (e.g., books, workbooks, video monitor).
• The curriculum must include the five basic subjects of reading, spelling, grammar, mathematics, and good citizenship.

 

What's visual form? What isn't visual form, unless the child is actually blind? 

 

Who's to say they aren't educating their children? Even if they are sitting (standing) around playing music, how is that different than some of those reeeallly unstructured unschoolers that you know? 

 

All I can say is that I wouldn't want someone judging my school based on those things:

-A relative reports they don't see the kids schooling.

-He overheard them say they're waiting to be raptured. (Well, I am too, but I have died small deaths when my kids told people they get to stay in pjs all day when it wasn't true!!!)

-A teenager runs away and doesn't want to be homeschooled.  And where I live, districts have the option of placing any homeschooled kid back in 9th grade, giving no credit for homeschooled high school work.

 

I think the difference is that the parents seem to be on some high horse about their rights. Maybe there's more to the story, but I was like "sigh, they are ruining it for the rest of us." Just give some d*** proof and be done with it. It is not that hard in a low-reg state to trot out the text books, show some samples, have the child orally demonstrate what they know in front of an educator... something, anything! I think this on top of the Duggar's homeschool news stuff and an abuse and neglect case in Michigan that winding, etc... just gets back into the homeschooling = extremist views/homeschoolers have something to hide. Please stop! I live in a low-reg state, and enjoy not needing to submit stuff, but would if needed just to not put my kids through any trauma.  There's something not quite right with how willing they seem to place principles over their kids, in this case. 

 

I don't understand why anyone would refuse to provide documentation when their family's fate rides on it.  I do understand protecting homeschooling rights, but protecting your own kids comes first.  In NJ, an equally "free" state, the law does specify that you must give evidence if accused of educational neglect.  Without that, there truly is nothing to insure a child's right to receive and parent's obligation to provide SOME SORT of education.

If this woman really was using a boxed curriculum, she could easily put everything to rest.  I very much do assume that she's either educationally neglected her kids or is currently using them as odd political pawns, which is just as bad.

 

I do sort of understand this. I think the vast majority of parents will pretty much do anything - within reason, this being totally within reason - to keep their kids, protect their kids from violence and abuse, make government trouble go away, etc. However, there are a few families who are willing to risk their own kids in order to prove a greater point that they think is deeply important. Some examples might be black parents during the period of integration who were willing to send their kids through abusive parents or more recently the Meitev parents in Maryland who were willing to send their kids out alone even though they knew the police had warned them not to. I think these parents are possibly trying to prove a point - that the burden of proof shouldn't be on them to show that they used a curriculum and that they're not required to do anything for the state, that their right to homeschool as they choose trumps the state's interests in their kids. I don't believe that it's just as bad to use your kids as "pawns" like that. I think sometimes it's important enough to do. I would strongly disagree though that this is such a case...

 

Of course, it's also possible she's lying and didn't use a program and thus can't produce any proof. I could totally believe it either way.

 

Yeahhhh....but... Some of those kids ended up with a fair amount of psychological damage from the ordeals. I know for some folks rethinking the civil rights era, and what children were exposed to. For example, some of the Little Rock Nine suffered from anxiety and depression well into their adulthood, in addition to PTSD. The Civil Rights era was important, but would that the psychology of racism and white supremacy weren't so deeply entrenched that children had to pay the price, you know what I mean? It's one thing for me to receive sanctions, and hardship for a cause; it's another to sign my children up for that -- especially if they don't want to and/or there are reasonable ways for me to avoid putting them in harm's way.

 

So if this family is falling on some sword, it's their kids that are receiving the actual wounds. And, to what end, really (and I heard that you basically agree here)?  But, that's where the comparison doesn't hold up. One could argue that in the case of the Little Rock Nine, the devastating effects of Jim Crow had already caused damage, and joining the cause, in this way, was "a necessary" route to making things better for everyone. But then again, my grandmother talks of knowing several families that were approached and refused. For every Little Rock Nine family, there were others that said, "This movement just can't be carried on the back of my kid" -- the parental me understands. 

 

It's the same in CO--if you're out, you'e out. We even had one family with a 10th grader who was informed that the child would be starting in K. 

Wow.  That seems counter-productive.

I understand the requirement to start high school in Grade 9, regardless of age Gr. 9+.  I don't agree with it, but I understand it.

 

But to insist a child age 16 would go into kindergarten sort of seems to contradict that whole "No Child Left Behind" thing, doesn't it?

I just can't imagine that scenario even making it to the first day of school.  Surely many parents would sound the alarms when they find out their 5-yr-olds will be sitting next to a 15-yr-old.  And what if the K teacher grades on a curve?  ;)

 

I'd love to know if anyone has ever tested this rule....

 

This is both dumb and outrageous, to the point that I actually feel like this must be an urban legend. I wish someone would have tested it. (It would have to be the right kid). Watch the complaints roll in, and the 24-7 CNN newsreel follow the teen's every move. If a school ever told me my middle or high schooler would have to start at K, I'd just say "Liar, liar, pants on fire," call my friend who worked as a producer for CNN, and say, "This is going to be a bigger news story about how ham-fisted schools can be than that one about the kid and his clock"... then, I'd ask, "Now do you want to give my kid a reasonable, age appropriate assessment or not!" 

[Farrar]

And I would agree except that's not the case at all.

 

There is zero reason a simple placement exam could not be given to solve this problem. Heck. Lots of schools give them to students who are transferring in anyways. Because the math ability of kids transferring from one school or state to another could be different and the testing evaluation can vary some from state to state too. Not to mention foreign students attending.

 

You're putting the problem on the school instead of taking responsibility for it.

 

This is like the parents who refuse to fill out the fafsa for their kids. Because it "shouldn't" work that way and how much a parent makes should be none of a child's business. Well, maybe or maybe not, but parents who do that have robbed their kids of the ability to attend a lot of colleges. It's so sad.

[Chelli]

But who should have a right to the educational records of a 17 yo? Honestly, I think the 17 yo in question should.

[EmseB]

You're putting the problem on the school instead of taking responsibility for it.

 

This is like the parents who refuse to fill out the fafsa for their kids. Because it "shouldn't" work that way and how much a parent makes should be none of a child's business. Well, maybe or maybe not, but parents who do that have robbed their kids of the ability to attend a lot of colleges. It's so sad.

Except if the school is providing classes, they are going to be in the best (and possibly only) position to know what skills are necessary for each class and if a student is ready for it. Looking at a transcript "with a grain of salt" is a silly idea when so many different schools and homeschools come at things from different angles, and so many kids manage to skate by or pump and dump for tests, or just have different opinions on what should count as a course of study for any given subject.

 

Look at it from the opposite direction: If I bring my kid home from a school to educate him, I'm not looking at his transcript for curriculum placement. It's not the school's responsibility to tell me where he should be placed in a new curriculum. Their paperwork tells me close to zero as to which level of any given curriculum I need to use. He could have pre-algebra on his transcript, so do I just go ahead and put him in an aops algebra class because that's what level the school would say they've taught him up to? No. I assess his actual abilities with placement tests and such, then I put him in the appropriate level. The school can give me a record of what they say they taught, I'm not saying they shouldn't, but what does it tell me in reality about what my child has learned? Why shouldn't it be on the gaining educational institution to assess incoming students? They are the only people who would really know if a student is really ready for any given class they provide, because only they know what's really in it.

 

This isn't the same thing as fafsa info at all.  ETA:  Assessing incoming students isn't a "problem" and the more I think about it, the more I think it is the responsibility of the gaining institution.  I can't think of a school I transferred to where I wasn't, in some way, assessed for readiness by the school I was about to start attending.  They all looked at my transcripts too, but none of them just relied on another school that they'd never even been in contact with before to determine my placement.

[Carrie12345]

I do sort of understand this. I think the vast majority of parents will pretty much do anything - within reason, this being totally within reason - to keep their kids, protect their kids from violence and abuse, make government trouble go away, etc. However, there are a few families who are willing to risk their own kids in order to prove a greater point that they think is deeply important. Some examples might be black parents during the period of integration who were willing to send their kids through abusive parents or more recently the Meitev parents in Maryland who were willing to send their kids out alone even though they knew the police had warned them not to. I think these parents are possibly trying to prove a point - that the burden of proof shouldn't be on them to show that they used a curriculum and that they're not required to do anything for the state, that their right to homeschool as they choose trumps the state's interests in their kids. I don't believe that it's just as bad to use your kids as "pawns" like that. I think sometimes it's important enough to do. I would strongly disagree though that this is such a case...

 

Of course, it's also possible she's lying and didn't use a program and thus can't produce any proof. I could totally believe it either way.

 

There are degrees. There are steps. There are lines.

 

When I had a false CPS report, I definitely didn't let the caseworker turn my life and kids upside down and stand there in defeat.  I gave him the bare minimum he needed to clear us, including seeing my kids through the window and asking for a  warrant if he met the legal requirements for more.

 

Meanwhile, the lady in the next township over who refused all access and waved a gun in her window?  She got arrested and had her child taken away.

 

There is plenty of room to prove and defend yourself without jeopardizing your family's well being OR giving up your homeschooling rights.

[Dmmetler]

In TN, kindergarten is mandatory and as the law reads, your child will be placed in K if they start school with no prior records. However, registration as a homeschooler, either with the district or via a private school's homeschool cover program, counts.

 

I know of three families with non-registered children who ended up entering PS.

 

In one, the child (starting 2nd at home according to mom) was placed in K. However, she was a very young 7 yr old, so she was actually not far from K age in a suburb with a lot of red shirting to start with. She ended up going up to 1st for reading and math, and entered 2nd as a young 8 yr old. In that case, I think the parent had assumed that not having to legally enter school until age 7 meant that she didn't have to register, either. (Divorce)

 

In one, the kids were 3rd and 5th grade, and were placed with their age grade, no questions asked. The school did beginning of the year testing for all kids anyway so they could target instruction for the state test. (Sudden death of a parent)

 

In one, the 7th grader was told that he'd be placed in 5th without records, but the 4th grader was placed fine. Mom went home, paid back fees to one of the cover schools for a couple of years, and created a transcript, which they accepted without issue for the 7th grader. (Divorce)

 

I've never known a registered child before 9th grade who wasn't placed in their age grade, or lower if that was where the parent had registered them. It's only if the child had accelerated at home that it took additional documentation. At 9th, end of course testing is required to get high school credit in major subjects, so unless the child had done that testing, or something equivalent, they had to do it. However, this is the case if coming from a private school (possibly another public school if one doesn't require testing as well), too.

 

In all cases, there wasn't court involvement at that time.

[Murphy101]

You're putting the problem on the school instead of taking responsibility for it.

 

This is like the parents who refuse to fill out the fafsa for their kids. Because it "shouldn't" work that way and how much a parent makes should be none of a child's business. Well, maybe or maybe not, but parents who do that have robbed their kids of the ability to attend a lot of colleges. It's so sad.

Of course I'm putting the problem on the school. It's the school's job to assess and place their students. If they claim they need information for placement, then something that actually assesses the student, such as a placement exam, would make complete sense and is entirely their job to provide. Same as they would do for a private school student transferring in, same as they would do for an out of state or country transfer in.

 

FAFSA is not the same thing at all.

FAFSA is mandating adults share financial information with another adult.

FAFSA is the same requirement for any single student under age 24.

This is not either of those things.

 

This is a minor who is being discriminated against by the school district. The state public schools are saying it's okay that any other student from any other type of education background can be given a placement assessment but home school students will be punished by being placed in 9th grade regardless. That's nuts. *It has nothing to do with paperwork or lack thereof by the parents or the student's academic ability.*

 

Also, if this were to be correlated to FAFSA at all, it's like mandating every parent fill out a FAFSA every year for every student starting in kindergarten or 9th grade or even if they don't attend college. It doesn't have anything to do with their actual education, but we're going to make everyone do it anyways so we can say we did something about those awful people who don't actually teach their kids anything. Except it doesn't do diddly for those kids. Heck, it won't even mean they can get into college.

[MinivanMom]

In our state, the law is that the legal starting point for public schools is kindergarten. It is at the discretion of the principal to allow a student to be placed in a higher grade. Our district also asks incoming homeschool students to provide documentation that they were registered with the state, to provide copies of standardized testing from every year of homeschooling (we are a testing state), and to fill out forms detailing subjects covered in each grade level and what texts were used for instruction. Although the law does not require you to provide these things, not providing them does not help with convincing a principal to use his discretion to place your child in their appropriate grade.

 

In real life practice in our school district:

 

-All 6-7 yr olds are placed in kindergarten regardless of test scores. I know of only one case where a 6-yr-old child was allowed (at the principal's discretion) to be placed in 1st grade. In that case the mother was a certified teacher. The school required her to bring in her certificate and allow them to photocopy it before placing her child in 1st. They didn't care about test scores, only that the mother had a valid teaching certificate.

 

-Most kids between 8 and 13 are placed in their age-appropriate grade or in the grade below. I have never heard of any child in this age range actually being placed into kindergarten, although legally a principal could do so. Parents who bring in good test scores are getting their kids placed in the proper grade. Parents who refuse to bring in test scores or whose kids have marginal test scores are the ones whose kids often get placed in the grade below. Our district/state does not have any sort of placement test for incoming students. You are expected to bring in those scores as the parent.

 

-For high school age kids, 14+, you must start at the 9th grade. There is no placement test and no exceptions. This is a credit issue. Our district, as a matter of policy, does not accept unaccredited high school credits, and this is true for both homeschoolers and students coming from unaccredited private schools. It is at the discretion of the principal to allow a student to be placed in higher level course (honors or geometry versus algebra). I have never heard of a student being allowed to receive credit for courses taken at home, and I know of several cases where previously homeschooled students starting in 9th grade were required to start over in Algebra I, because the principal wouldn't allow them to place out of any math courses based on homeschooling.

 

This isn't a case of our district/state being difficult with homeschoolers, either. I know of multiple cases of families moving here from states with half-day kindergarten, where the district has tried to place them in kindergarten for a second year. Apparently, half-day isn't good enough, and they prefer to force the students to start over in full-day kindergarten. I also have a friend who moved here from Virginia that wasn't able to get her 14-yr-old son credit for the French I and II classes he had taken in his accredited public middle school. He had been attending a prestigious French immersion program at a suburban DC-area magnet school, but our district wouldn't give him credit for the classes. After much lobbying from the mom, who is a certified foreign language teacher herself, the district finally agreed to place him back in French II for his 9th grade year instead of making him start over in French I. He got no credits for French I.

[Joker]

I wonder if the starting all high schoolers in 9th grade thing has to do with state graduation requirements. If the state requires 4 years of math for a high school diploma it doesn't matter if your incoming placement test puts you in pre-algebra or calculus, you still need four years of math after starting high school.

 

In places we have lived, it is just high school level. Those classes do not have to take place in the high school years. Right now, youngest dd is receiving high school credit for two classes while in the 8th grade. It was the same for oldest and those classes taken in middle school that were high school level are on her transcript. She does not have to have four years of math in high school if she doesn't want to (she will, though). 

[Murphy101]

I wonder if the starting all high schoolers in 9th grade thing has to do with state graduation requirements. If the state requires 4 years of math for a high school diploma it doesn't matter if your incoming placement test puts you in pre-algebra or calculus, you still need four years of math after starting high school.

I have no idea, but it all sounds like convoluted nonsense to me. At the least, there should be a test out option. No wonder so many drop out or fail. They get fed up with the beaucracy hoop jumping before they are even old enough to vote. There's got to be a better use of our young people's youth than this crazy system.