keroro Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 It sounds to me like they have also chosen to exclude Jesus from their group. Jesus never preached a gospel of exclusion. If he had, the only Christians would be Jewish like Jesus and his disciples. I am so sorry that you were treated so poorly. I admire the dignity and grace you have shown while dealing with this situation. :grouphug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Buckin' Longhorn Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I haven't read all the replies . . . because the thread is so long, but I didn't want that to keep me from saying that I'm so sorry about what you and your little girl are going through. I know how it is. We only have one car and spend a lot of time staying inside during the day because of it. I have vision problems and really hate driving at night . . . but I do what I have to do. Anyway, I really applaud you for home schooling your daughter even though you're a single parent. What an awesome responsibility you've taken on. :grouphug: I hope something even more incredible, timely and absolutely FREE comes along very soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne Rittenhouse Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Sometimes I read things here and want to weep. Bill Sometimes I read things here and experience them IRL, and I do weep. I cry and I rage for the children, for their parents, for the homeschooling movement. The divisive nature of local control over homeschool activities is homeschooling's weakest link, especially when exclusivity and inclusivity are ill-defined for the groups. Thoughtfullness and complete disclosure from the outset are often missing. I can only speak of my own real life experiences which are more often like the OP's than anything else. Homeschooling, for a mom of one can be very lonely for both of them. I could have saved myself and my son many heartbreaks if someone, anyone, could have found the kindness to say at the outset, "You know, we don't have a SOF. We never thought we'd need one. We never thought anyone else of XYZ would consider our group, but we are not comfortable with outsiders and we would prefer to be exclusive." Just so I'm clear here, the exclusion for us worked on both sides, as classical homeschoolers, we were not welcome with the XYZ's who were ardent unschoolers. Being XYZ and excluded by faith, and being a classical homeschooler and excluded by method is a very, very narrow path to walk. So narrow, that we re-entered the brick and mortar schools again, but in order to get what we wanted for our son, we moved to Europe and mortgaged our retirement for his education at a private Catholic institution. If you had told me what our journey would be for this child when he was born, I would have laughed at you. Now I look back and cry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swellmomma Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Just an idea about sports fees. Often if you talk to the organizer/cub president they can reduce or even waive fees in exchange for volunteer hours, some accept payment plans etc. My kids take tons of activities every season I hardly pay anything for them because I volunteer in lieu of full fees. As for you sister it is not her responsibilty to pay for your dd's extra currics even if you feel she is squandering her money away. I know what having a very tight budget is like, after all I am a single parent with no job, but I have never expected my family to pay my kids sports fees, I just find a way to make it work by being resourceful and I am sure that you could too. Even without a car I am sure you can find activities on a bus route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aggie Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Mom and Aly...I feel so bad for both of you. The hurt and disappointment are overwhelming. I'm sure if they *knew* you there wouldn't be a problem. I have a couple of questions for everyone in this thread. Be kind, for I ask these humbly and genuinely. If I joined a Christian group with the understanding that the other moms and kids subscribe to the same Biblical teachings that I do, are we under a moral obligation to open our group to non-Christians? Mom and Aly are wonderful people, and I think I would get along famously with Mom, but then where would/could our group draw the line? What if someone with polar opposite beliefs joined and wanted to change the direction of the group, or take a leadership/teaching position? It's not an unlikely scenario. Would it be ethical for a group to accept some non-Christians but turn away others? I'm very torn on this issue. My dc and I are isolated, geographically, and desire Christian fellowship. We're not isolationists and don't shield our dc from people of other faiths, but we don't falter in what we teach. In other words, what we teach to our 6yo may come out of his mouth sounding, ummmm....very judgmental. We teach our dc what we believe is right and wrong (stealing is wrong, for example), and what we believe are differences (our family celebrates 4th of July, but not everyone does. Not right or wrong, just different). (Does this make sense? :)) I feel I am *on* all the time making sure the dc don't say anything inappropriate, or making sure I discuss certain issues. A Christian group would let me relax for a bit, ya know? Jesus Himself talked with everyone, true, but He did take some time for just him and His followers, right? Should a group be obligated to open their doors to everyone? All the time? I see the group's pov. And yet, my heart breaks completely for Aly. Would any Christians on this board never belong to an exclusive group? Is anyone else as torn as I am on this? I truly ask these questions with a warm and open heart. And, Mom, I hope this doesn't make you feel even more uncomfortable. This should probably be a different thread, eh? I'll blame the disjointedness of this post on the late hour. :001_unsure: Again, please answer gently, :) Aggie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom to Aly Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share Posted September 17, 2008 Just an idea about sports fees. Often if you talk to the organizer/cub president they can reduce or even waive fees in exchange for volunteer hours, some accept payment plans etc. My kids take tons of activities every season I hardly pay anything for them because I volunteer in lieu of full fees. As for you sister it is not her responsibilty to pay for your dd's extra currics even if you feel she is squandering her money away. I know what having a very tight budget is like, after all I am a single parent with no job, but I have never expected my family to pay my kids sports fees, I just find a way to make it work by being resourceful and I am sure that you could too. Even without a car I am sure you can find activities on a bus route. One more time, for the record--I DON'T FEEL MY SISTER HAD TO PAY FOR MY DD!!!! I was disappointed she wouldn't lend me the money!!! And my point was, she does have it to lend, and I have done for her for years and years, never asking anything in return! That is all! As for checking of a scholarship of kinds, I did not know that existed, but I will check on it. Thank you to the people who have mentioned it. Thank you to all of you, for all of your kindness. I realized a little while ago, I haven't cried in a while! You have (almost ;)) all made me feel so much better, as always! Now, I'm going to go spend some time with my dd, who is still up, yes, having a party night :D. Thanks again, all of you--I wish I had rep for all of you, but, in the meantime, :grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue G in PA Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I'm so heartborken for you and your dd. I'm so sorry that the only "glimpse" into Christianity is from people like this...who are so NOT Christian that I just want to scream. Christianity is NOT like that. True Christians, REAL Christians don't act like that. That's so NOT what Jesus would do it's sickening. I'm so, so sorry. :grouphug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy in Orlando Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 WOW - I'm so sad and sorry, Mom to Aly. I really signed on tonight hoping for a happy outcome. 8( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kris Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I think there are times and places for that. I agree that it can sometimes be appropriate for groups to have private programs, especially those that are specifically spiritual in nature. But this is a sporting event, not a Bible study, and they had already told Aly that she could join and then they voted against a little girl and changed their collective mind. I can't stomach that. This is the part that sticks in my craw. There are plenty of groups around here that do not welcome us, and I fully support that. It's their right to do that. And my attitude, frankly, is that I don't go where I'm not wanted -- so everyone's happy. But in this case she had already been told she could join. To me, that's where the discussion ends. It's one thing to tell an adult, "Oops! We changed our minds! So sorry!" It's quite another to do that to a kid. It's despicable. No matter what faith you profess -- or none at all -- that's a horrific, thoughtless, nasty thing to do. When I pulled up this thread tonight and saw all the discussion, I *so* hoped it was because everything had worked out. My heart just broke when I read that it had not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beansprouts Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 It sounds to me like they have also chosen to exclude Jesus from their group. Jesus never preached a gospel of exclusion. If he had, the only Christians would be Jewish like Jesus and his disciples. I am so sorry that you were treated so poorly. I admire the dignity and grace you have shown while dealing with this situation. :grouphug: I am stunned by how harsh and judgemental we are against a party who has no opportunity to defend themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karenciavo Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 If there is no statement of faith how did this group even find out what your world view is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ma23peas Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 For goodness sake folks! Yes, I'm shouting that. So cover your ears. I am incensed at some of your responses!!! All I'm reading is a very distraught mother wanting a bit of blue sky for her daughter in an otherwise cloudy situation. And instead of coming up with constructive helps, you criticize and judge? OUCH and SHAME ON YOU ALL! Did you read her title for this thread? " My dd is heartbroken and I am in a crisis " Now, are you telling me that all you 'teachers' and 'loving mothers' out there have NO constructive ideas or encouragment for her? Well, then keep your fingers from typing. If my children acted as some of you have, they'd be getting a hard talking to and that's what I hate to say you guys need. I think some of you owe her a good amout of eating crow and making an apology. Now for Aly's mom...BE ENCOURAGED!!! There are folks out here praying for you and lifting you up with our thoughts!! But, guess what? We are some savvy ladies out here..we can come up with some great ideas for you!! 1. NEVER be ashamed or embarrassed to ask for a special needs gift. I am a coordinator for a scouting troop and I routinely ask for donations or use our fundraising moneys to help families afford uniforms/dues when the need arises. So, can you ask the league to help your daughter and explain to them your special circumstances...one day, you may be in a situation where you can donate back to the league and help sponsor a girl down the road, but right now monies are tight for you and YOU need the help. 2. Just love your sister, that will be the greatest thing she needs, for if she is making a point on your homeschooling, she will greatly regret it and that pain alone will be her punishment. 3. Your daughter needs diversion, it's tough being an only child with a mom who is feeling the pressures! Have her start a book club...have the girls meet once a month at a library or at a park and let them enjoy exploring books together...you can get those for free at the library and it only encourages her! 4. WRITE a letter to that group that vehemently said, "no"....please take the time to express your disappointment from the depths of your heart and what a blow it was to your daughter...leave out the bitterness and let them see the true hurt their actions caused. You will be doing them a big service...if you can, write to 2-3 of the coaches..not just one...I had a situation in my son's boy scouts and if I had only written to one, I would not have received the same response by shedding light on it to several. 5. Go to the local symphony/art museum, does your daughter have a desire to play an instrument, explain your daughter's needs...many programs are in place to help foster the gift of art/music to those who can't afford it...take advantage of these programs..if I have time later today I will try and find local grants in your area that you could contact, could you tell me where you live? There are always things you can do no matter your financial situation..it just takes creativity and the guts to go after them with confidence and a smile!! We need to help you get that smile back for your daughter!! Blessings, Tara Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TammyinTN Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I'm so sorry! :grouphug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I am incensed at some of your responses!!! All I'm reading is a very distraught mother wanting a bit of blue sky for her daughter in an otherwise cloudy situation. And instead of coming up with constructive helps, you criticize and judge? OUCH and SHAME ON YOU ALL! Did you read her title for this thread?" My dd is heartbroken and I am in a crisis " Now, are you telling me that all you 'teachers' and 'loving mothers' out there have NO constructive ideas or encouragment for her? Well, then keep your fingers from typing. I don't do the smiley thing, but I couldn't agree more with what Tara says here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer3141 Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I don't do the smiley thing, but I couldn't agree more with what Tara says here. :iagree: Although I do the smiley thing sometimes. M2A, you know how I feel about things like this. I'm so sorry your daughter has been hurt by "Christians." Jen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gretchen in NJ Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 :grouphug: I am so sorry that you and your daughter are going thru this. :grouphug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Academy of Jedi Arts Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I am also very sad reading this thread. I feel so sorry for these people's kids. Mom to Aly, I don't feel sorry for your dd at all. She has a mom who wants to broaden her horizons, not limit them. Even if you can't afford all the activities you would like for her, the gift of having you as a mom is priceless. I am so sorry your dd was let down this way. No child deserves that. :grouphug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I still think a private group should have the freedom to be exclusive if they want to. When my dc and I were at the PUBLIC swimming pool and saw the staff papering over the windows so that a group of Muslim women and their children could swim without anyone being able to see into the pool I wasn't upset. It didn't bother me that all-female lifeguards were provided either. I didn't feel any need to ask to join them because I respected their privacy/traditions. I could've asked if I could join them, but I don't know if they would've appreciated having me show up in a bikini or try to bring my dh along just because we would be comfortable swimming in a co-ed situation. I think mutual respect is very important, but I don't believe that a PRIVATE Christian sports group (or a private swim session at a PUBLIC swimming pool for Muslim women/children) should be offensive to anyone. For me, this comes under the category of teaching my dc to respect others for their differences, not hating them or being resentful. Maybe I'm just more tolerant, but I can't control how other parents explain similar situations to their dc. What if you asked to swim with the Muslim women while following all their requirements and they told you no b/c you weren't Muslim? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 For goodness sake folks! Yes, I'm shouting that. So cover your ears. I am incensed at some of your responses!!! All I'm reading is a very distraught mother wanting a bit of blue sky for her daughter in an otherwise cloudy situation. And instead of coming up with constructive helps, you criticize and judge? OUCH and SHAME ON YOU ALL! Did you read her title for this thread? " My dd is heartbroken and I am in a crisis " Now, are you telling me that all you 'teachers' and 'loving mothers' out there have NO constructive ideas or encouragment for her? Well, then keep your fingers from typing. If my children acted as some of you have, they'd be getting a hard talking to and that's what I hate to say you guys need. I think some of you owe her a good amout of eating crow and making an apology. Now for Aly's mom...BE ENCOURAGED!!! There are folks out here praying for you and lifting you up with our thoughts!! But, guess what? We are some savvy ladies out here..we can come up with some great ideas for you!! 1. NEVER be ashamed or embarrassed to ask for a special needs gift. I am a coordinator for a scouting troop and I routinely ask for donations or use our fundraising moneys to help families afford uniforms/dues when the need arises. So, can you ask the league to help your daughter and explain to them your special circumstances...one day, you may be in a situation where you can donate back to the league and help sponsor a girl down the road, but right now monies are tight for you and YOU need the help. 2. Just love your sister, that will be the greatest thing she needs, for if she is making a point on your homeschooling, she will greatly regret it and that pain alone will be her punishment. 3. Your daughter needs diversion, it's tough being an only child with a mom who is feeling the pressures! Have her start a book club...have the girls meet once a month at a library or at a park and let them enjoy exploring books together...you can get those for free at the library and it only encourages her! 4. WRITE a letter to that group that vehemently said, "no"....please take the time to express your disappointment from the depths of your heart and what a blow it was to your daughter...leave out the bitterness and let them see the true hurt their actions caused. You will be doing them a big service...if you can, write to 2-3 of the coaches..not just one...I had a situation in my son's boy scouts and if I had only written to one, I would not have received the same response by shedding light on it to several. 5. Go to the local symphony/art museum, does your daughter have a desire to play an instrument, explain your daughter's needs...many programs are in place to help foster the gift of art/music to those who can't afford it...take advantage of these programs..if I have time later today I will try and find local grants in your area that you could contact, could you tell me where you live? There are always things you can do no matter your financial situation..it just takes creativity and the guts to go after them with confidence and a smile!! We need to help you get that smile back for your daughter!! Blessings, Tara I agree, Tara. When someone is hurting and in pain, the first thing to do is to comfort and care, not criticize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beansprouts Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I agree, Tara. When someone is hurting and in pain, the first thing to do is to comfort and care, not criticize. I absolutely agree. What she needs is comfort and care to heal her emotions, encourage and perspective so she can see clearly, then help brainstorming constructive solutions. How does trashing the other party fulfill any of these needs? Mom to Aly {{HUGS}} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 What if you asked to swim with the Muslim women while following all their requirements and they told you no b/c you weren't Muslim? I'd be okay with it. It would appear that they were using their swim time as more than swim - they were also using it as a fellowship time. And I would respect their desire to do that. I wouldn't neccessarily feel they were discriminating against me or trying to live in a bubble. I don't know what all they do outside their club. Maybe they are that restrictive of their group because they are very active socially outside it? Maybe they want to feel completely free to discuss all things muslim woman related while they swim without having to wonder if they are offending someone or not being politically correct? Why are they wrong for wanting that for their group?:confused: I don't think so. Now, if I went to a public resturant and ordered my food and a bunch of whatever folks got up and left or made me feel like I should leave because they didn't want to eat at the same resturant as me? THAT would bother me. I think any private group can and should restrict their membership as they feel best for their group. Their mere existance does not grant me rights to join. I don't think they have to have a SoF to restrict membership either. Not having a SoF does not automaticly mean they are open to anyone. It just means they didn't feel a need or a desire at the time to define themselves beyond "christian". I have a feeling that might change after this incident. I've been in very exclusionary groups, all inclusive groups, and groups somewhere in the middle. I've also not been able to join such various groups because I'm christian or because I'm catholic or because I coudln't afford it or because I just didn't feel comfortable there. They all have their benefits and drawbacks. I think they all are right to make membership decisions as they see best for their group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barb_ Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I'd be okay with it. It would appear that they were using their swim time as more than swim - they were also using it as a fellowship time. And I would respect their desire to do that. .... I think they all are right to make membership decisions as they see best for their group. But see, this is a *sports* team for kids, apparently the point of which was not Christian fellowship. Which is actually beside the point. Here's the thing that I think most of us are reacting to--at first this group was open, but then according to the OP, "the head has been rethinking it--considering the fact that we are not just not Christian, but that we are Hindu--apparently a bit too "off"--and is going to pray about it, and check with group, but, even though there is no requirement for a statement of faith, thinks it may be "too much to ask" of group to let us in." So it was this family's specific faith that caused the group to reject them. What if the muslim group told you that because you were Catholic, that was just too out there for them and that it was going to make them rethink the entire focus of their group? What if it was your child they were rejecting on the basis of her faith, after she had already been told she could join? It really isn't the same as beginning with a closed group. This has a very picky-choosy feel about it that is distinctly unkind and bigoted. Barb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andie Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 --nevermind :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 But see, this is a *sports* team for kids, apparently the point of which was not Christian fellowship. I disagree. The OP said, "It is a devout religious group, they say a prayer at the beginning of each practice, " so I'm inclined to think that it was a sports team AND christian fellowship. It's highly possible the group membership wanted it to be both. Possibly evangelical as well. When pushed on the issue, they found they were more interested in the christian aspect of membership being preserved and that they need to rethink the focus of their group. Which is actually beside the point. Here's the thing that I think most of us are reacting to--at first this group was open, but then according to the OP, "the head has been rethinking it--considering the fact that we are not just not Christian, but that we are Hindu--apparently a bit too "off"--and is going to pray about it, and check with group, but, even though there is no requirement for a statement of faith, thinks it may be "too much to ask" of group to let us in." So it was this family's specific faith that caused the group to reject them. What if the muslim group told you that because you were Catholic, that was just too out there for them and that it was going to make them rethink the entire focus of their group? What if it was your child they were rejecting on the basis of her faith, after she had already been told she could join? It really isn't the same as beginning with a closed group. This has a very picky-choosy feel about it that is distinctly unkind and bigoted. Been there and done/doing that. I think you'd be surprised how many people don't like Catholics. I think you'd be surprised how many people don't want Catholics in their group or for their kids to play with catholic kids. I've had that happen to me and or my kids numerous times. I don't think it's neccessarily bigoted either. which brings me to Andies point.. There is a large Christian children's sports organization whose mission is to evangelize *through* sports. (In practice, the amount of emphasis on evangelization varies greatly from league to league, but that's the organization's goal.) It occured to me that perhaps they were initially okay with it, thinking the child was just "not a Christian" and therefore a candidate for "saving", but when they found out she was a Hindu, they didn't feel evangelization would be appropriate or effective. Several christians on this thread have said the girl should be admitted to the group on the basis of christian evangelization. I venture the notions that: 1. the group does not want that to become the focus of their activities. 2. the group does not want members who are not seeking christ, thus some non-christians might be welcome and others not. pending the pov of the group on whether they are on a path to being christian - basicly what andie said. 3. one might not want to join a christian group if they are going to have to be on the defensive at every gathering for being preached to, have faith discussions/disagreements, have their dc singled out as the non-believer or the weird believer or the wrong believer. Frankly, I'm very leery of many christian groups (with or without a SoF) because some think the pope is the anti-christ or catholics are going to hell or are not christians or are idol worshipers or whatever and try to convert me or my kids. No, I'm not scared that they'll succeed. I'm just not interested in joining a group where I have to be on my guard and where the only reason they'll associate with me is to argue against my faith and try to convert me. I've btdt and after a while of failing to convert us, they tend to end the contact altogether or start to limit contact with us. 4. the members simply don't want to deal with this issue and thus have decided to not give membership to someone they feel would rock their boat. maybe some members who want to evangelise to her, maybe others would shun her, maybe others don't care - so maybe the group leadership felt it would be best for the continued harmony of the group to just not deal with it. It's entirely possible they are being christian by not permitting membership. Just as it would be entirely possible that they could have let her play without any kind motivation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom to Aly Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share Posted September 17, 2008 I have to address a couple of points: Karen asked how they knew I was Hindu when they didn't ask for a statement of faith. I knew they were a Christian group, and I felt it would be deceptive of me to join and not tell them, so I was completely up front about it. When I said they were devout and said a prayer at the beginning, those were my words, not their's. My friend did let me know there is no evangelizing, etc, as she knows that is something I don't believe in. As she put it, the kids are there for sports, the people don't hang around and chat afterwards, just pack up and go (I asked because of the time it ended, if another club I was hoping would work, that didn't, we would have had to leave immediately afterwards). And, again, I have never criticized this group. I do believe in their right to do this, my problem is the disappointment my daughter is suffering. Martha, I want to make sure you are reading this, no one owes my daughter a space on their team, or the money to play, I know that, I am worried about my daughter, who is so sweet, has never called anyone a bad name, would never consider it, is the type who will look for the children who are not playing and go draw them in and make them feel comfortable, who tells me she really doesn't have to have new clothes or shoes, or toys, she is just happy she has me, and she can homeschool, that is all that matters. My problem is that my little girl had been counting on this, and can't do it, and she is still crying about it, when she thinks I can't see, and, pooh, now I'm crying again. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom to Aly Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share Posted September 17, 2008 Oh, and, Martha, "the girl" has a name--you can call her "Aly". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jennifer3141 Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Oh, go check your PMs!!!! Jen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I absolutely agree. What she needs is comfort and care to heal her emotions, encourage and perspective so she can see clearly, then help brainstorming constructive solutions. How does trashing the other party fulfill any of these needs? Mom to Aly {{HUGS}} I never "trashed the other party." I never even mentioned the "other party." Find the poster who you think is "trashing the other party" and quote them, not me because I wrote nothing about "the other party." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beansprouts Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I never "trashed the other party." I never even mentioned the "other party." Find the poster who you think is "trashing the other party" and quote them, not me because I wrote nothing about "the other party." I agreed with your post. My question was for the group in general, not you in particular. There were several harsh posts, and I didn't feel like digging them up and/or singling people out. I just wanted to offer a little perspective for all. I am very sorry for the misunderstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I agreed with your post. My question was for the group in general, not you in particular. There were several harsh posts, and I didn't feel like digging them up and/or singling people out. I just wanted to offer a little perspective for all. I am very sorry for the misunderstanding. Thank you. It is very sweet of you to apologize. It means a lot to me. :grouphug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Call Me Cordelia Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Just jumping in, not having read the entire thread. I can understand a team's desire to keep the team likeminded. My dd plays on a team made up entirely of ps girls. She likes them all. But she has not clicked with any of them. (She has also played with other ps girls with whom she has clicked.) She also plays on a boys home school high school team and there is so much harmony on that team. It's awesome. But I know the coach will be happy next year when the three girls have their own team - it just changes the dynamics. At any rate, I understand the desire. Not sure whether or not I agree, disagree or am neutral. :) Now, regarding a child's heartbreak...big hugs to you and your dd. THAT I can completely relate to and understand. My dd has had some major disappointments relating to teams, etc... and in each instance has seen it work for the better. That's more to encourage you than her. It sometimes takes months, but always we have seen the wisdom in what has happened and often it has worked out for a better situation to take place. Hugs, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erica in PA Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 And, again, I have never criticized this group. I do believe in their right to do this, my problem is the disappointment my daughter is suffering. Martha, I want to make sure you are reading this, no one owes my daughter a space on their team, or the money to play, I know that, I am worried about my daughter, who is so sweet, has never called anyone a bad name, would never consider it, is the type who will look for the children who are not playing and go draw them in and make them feel comfortable, who tells me she really doesn't have to have new clothes or shoes, or toys, she is just happy she has me, and she can homeschool, that is all that matters. My problem is that my little girl had been counting on this, and can't do it, and she is still crying about it, when she thinks I can't see, and, pooh, now I'm crying again. :( I think you are right for not criticizing this group. I think many people in this thread have gone too far in condemning them. While I don't think they handled it properly in allowing your dd to join, then telling her they basically changed their minds, I don't agree that they acted in an unChristian way. It's not contrary to biblical teaching to have like-minded groups. They should have been clear about their position before telling you yes in the first place. I don't think that makes them guilty of bigotry or intolerance, though. No one likes to see a child hurt, and my heart goes out to you and your dd. It's hard for a child to understand this kind of thing, and I think it's our job as parents to convey the truth to them in the least hurtful way possible. The way you present this to dd will affect the way she views Christians, possibly for the rest of her life. In your shoes, I would want to be honest with her, but also not unfairly condemn this group. I wouldn't want her to feel like a victim, and I don't think she needs to in this situation. I would explain to her that this group doesn't think she is bad, or dislike her in any way, but they want to keep this particular group for Christians, for a variety of reasons, so we will look hard for another opportunity to play sports. And I would absolutely bust my tail to find another opportunity for her, as soon as possible. I think you have the power in this situation to help your dd see this situation in the best possible light, and I hope you'll take advantage of that. I hope you find another option for sports very soon, and that you can put this situation far behind you! Erica Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I'm so sorry. Here's the quote: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." Mohandas Gandhi And here are some other of his words I feel sure you know: "I know, to banish anger altogether from one's breast is a difficult task. It cannot be achieved through pure personal effort. It can be done only by God's grace." Mohandas Gandhi And this: "Be the change that you want to see in the world." Mohandas Gandhi So, when you're ready, maybe it's time to pick yourself up and start some sort of group that you can do, yourself, out of your home or a nearby park, etc. That's what we did here, finally, and other groups like it are continuing to spring up in the area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom to Aly Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share Posted September 17, 2008 I think you are right for not criticizing this group. I think many people in this thread have gone too far in condemning them. While I don't think they handled it properly in allowing your dd to join, then telling her they basically changed their minds, I don't agree that they acted in an unChristian way. It's not contrary to biblical teaching to have like-minded groups. They should have been clear about their position before telling you yes in the first place. I don't think that makes them guilty of bigotry or intolerance, though. No one likes to see a child hurt, and my heart goes out to you and your dd. It's hard for a child to understand this kind of thing, and I think it's our job as parents to convey the truth to them in the least hurtful way possible. The way you present this to dd will affect the way she views Christians, possibly for the rest of her life. In your shoes, I would want to be honest with her, but also not unfairly condemn this group. I wouldn't want her to feel like a victim, and I don't think she needs to in this situation. I would explain to her that this group doesn't think she is bad, or dislike her in any way, but they want to keep this particular group for Christians, for a variety of reasons, so we will look hard for another opportunity to play sports. And I would absolutely bust my tail to find another opportunity for her, as soon as possible. I think you have the power in this situation to help your dd see this situation in the best possible light, and I hope you'll take advantage of that. And, please, before you jump on me, I am NOT criticizing Christianity-I think Christ's message was beautiful, and if people adhered to it, it would be an amazing world. I am saying that people do preach it, but don't live up to it, all too often. I hope you find another option for sports very soon, and that you can put this situation far behind you! Erica Well, while I do feel they have every right to keep us out, I do feel they are guilty of intolerance and bigotry, because they made it very clear it is because we are Hindu, and not because we are not Christian. Two very different things. But the last thing I would ever do is spell that out to my daughter, or make her feel it is because they are Christian. We have had so many bad experiences, besides the ones I have mentioned, my daughter has been told several times she is going to hell by Christians, many of those children, many adults! And I have been told the same in front of her! When she was 4 we were in a grocery store on Halloween and she was dressed as a cat; the woman behind us asked if it was a Halloween costume and she said yes, and the woman grabbed me by the arm and shook me, and proclaimed loudly that I was condemning my daughter to hell, and how dare I do that, then she bent down to my daughter's eye level and told her to cast the devil out of her heart! You cannot imagine the restraint it took for me not to knock that woman down!! As for this being un-Christian of these people: I am surrounded by Christians who tell me of their kindness and fellowship, how they love everyone and we are all God's children. That is not how this group treated us. My ex-best friend, the one who told me she could no longer be friends with us because Christ had led her away from us, used to think it was a great compliment to tell me I was the most "Christian person she knew" because of my behavior--the way I saw the world and the way I treated people--she never understood why I didn't find that a compliment--it was partly because not only Christians are supposed to be that way; Hindus believe the same thing, and Buddhists, etc. But also because so many Christians say that, but then do not practice what they preach. I feel that is true of these people. If my daughter is a lamb in Jesus' flock, she has surely been used as the sacrificial one by this group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom to Aly Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share Posted September 17, 2008 I'm so sorry. Here's the quote: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." Mohandas Gandhi And here are some other of his words I feel sure you know: "I know, to banish anger altogether from one's breast is a difficult task. It cannot be achieved through pure personal effort. It can be done only by God's grace." Mohandas Gandhi And this: "Be the change that you want to see in the world." Mohandas Gandhi So, when you're ready, maybe it's time to pick yourself up and start some sort of group that you can do, yourself, out of your home or a nearby park, etc. That's what we did here, finally, and other groups like it are continuing to spring up in the area. I do know these, and I love them all. Thank you so much for printing them!!! I'm so sorry I'm out of rep today--I only got two people! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 It's hard for a child to understand this kind of thing, and I think it's our job as parents to convey the truth to them in the least hurtful way possible. The way you present this to dd will affect the way she views Christians, possibly for the rest of her life. Erica What could you possibly say to a child that was "truthful" and at the same time not be incurably hurtful (or indeed cruel)? I rack my brain searching for the words, but they do not come. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greta Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 When she was 4 we were in a grocery store on Halloween and she was dressed as a cat; the woman behind us asked if it was a Halloween costume and she said yes, and the woman grabbed me by the arm and shook me, and proclaimed loudly that I was condemning my daughter to hell, and how dare I do that, then she bent down to my daughter's eye level and told her to cast the devil out of her heart! You cannot imagine the restraint it took for me not to knock that woman down!! Wow. Just . . . wow. Where do you live? (I'm having flashbacks of my home state!) I've also had a stranger in a grocery store shaking his finger in my face and telling me I was going to hell. That's an unpleasant enough experience. But my daughter wasn't born at that time. I can't imagine how I would feel if someone did that to her. You must have been absolutely trembling with hurt, bewilderment, and anger. Or maybe that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Karen asked how they knew I was Hindu when they didn't ask for a statement of faith. I knew they were a Christian group, and I felt it would be deceptive of me to join and not tell them, so I was completely up front about it. commendable and a good policy to have. I do the same about being Catholic. When I said they were devout and said a prayer at the beginning, those were my words, not their's. My friend did let me know there is no evangelizing, etc, as she knows that is something I don't believe in. As she put it, the kids are there for sports, the people don't hang around and chat afterwards, just pack up and go (I asked because of the time it ended, if another club I was hoping would work, that didn't, we would have had to leave immediately afterwards). see now, this is one of those things that people "in the thick" of things may just not catch. I've been invited by friends to many things they assured me were not evangelical in nature, but they just weren't as aware of how much the faith was weaved in. It's not as noticeable to someone who doesn't have a reason to notice it, kwim? And, again, I have never criticized this group. and yet you call them intolorant, bigoted and unchristian. That sounds mighty critical to me.:001_huh: I do believe in their right to do this, my problem is the disappointment my daughter is suffering. sure and I get that. every parents had a kid cry over something like this. but on the other hand, it's just a game. Martha, I want to make sure you are reading this, no one owes my daughter a space on their team, or the money to play, I know that, okay then. I'm reading it. Your previous posts conveyed a far different attitude. One of bitterness and anger over those things not being done and of keeping score and finding you've given more than you've gotten. I'm sincerely sorry if my impression of your attitude was in error. I am worried about my daughter, who is so sweet, has never called anyone a bad name, would never consider it, is the type who will look for the children who are not playing and go draw them in and make them feel comfortable, who tells me she really doesn't have to have new clothes or shoes, or toys, she is just happy she has me, and she can homeschool, that is all that matters. Okay. Why are you worring about her then? That's all great attributes for her to have and a clear sign that not being on a team is not going to be a big deal. Oh, and, Martha, "the girl" has a name--you can call her "Aly". oh geez. I rarely use any kid's name on the internet. Including my own. It's not a personal insult. I think you are right for not criticizing this group. I think many people in this thread have gone too far in condemning them. While I don't think they handled it properly in allowing your dd to join, then telling her they basically changed their minds, I don't agree that they acted in an unChristian way. It's not contrary to biblical teaching to have like-minded groups. They should have been clear about their position before telling you yes in the first place. I don't think that makes them guilty of bigotry or intolerance, though. No one likes to see a child hurt, and my heart goes out to you and your dd. It's hard for a child to understand this kind of thing, and I think it's our job as parents to convey the truth to them in the least hurtful way possible. The way you present this to dd will affect the way she views Christians, possibly for the rest of her life. In your shoes, I would want to be honest with her, but also not unfairly condemn this group. I wouldn't want her to feel like a victim, and I don't think she needs to in this situation. I would explain to her that this group doesn't think she is bad, or dislike her in any way, but they want to keep this particular group for Christians, for a variety of reasons, so we will look hard for another opportunity to play sports. And I would absolutely bust my tail to find another opportunity for her, as soon as possible. I think you have the power in this situation to help your dd see this situation in the best possible light, and I hope you'll take advantage of that. I hope you find another option for sports very soon, and that you can put this situation far behind you! Erica :iagree: Well, while I do feel they have every right to keep us out, I do feel they are guilty of intolerance and bigotry, because they made it very clear it is because we are Hindu, and not because we are not Christian. Two very different things. But the last thing I would ever do is spell that out to my daughter, or make her feel it is because they are Christian. ah, but kids are very smart critters. they hear a lot in what we never say. We have had so many bad experiences, besides the ones I have mentioned, my daughter has been told several times she is going to hell by Christians, many of those children, many adults! And I have been told the same in front of her! When she was 4 we were in a grocery store on Halloween and she was dressed as a cat; the woman behind us asked if it was a Halloween costume and she said yes, and the woman grabbed me by the arm and shook me, and proclaimed loudly that I was condemning my daughter to hell, and how dare I do that, then she bent down to my daughter's eye level and told her to cast the devil out of her heart! You cannot imagine the restraint it took for me not to knock that woman down!! Well... I would have knocked her on flat on her bum if she'd laid a hand on us and I sure would have told her to shut up and quit scaring my kid and I wouldn't have regreted it one bit. And such incidents are not really about non-christian vs christian, imo. Some people are just nuts. Like nuts, they come in many varities. :DI've met many christian people who don't do halloween (we do) or who don't do christmas or easter (we absolutely do both) because they think it's all rooted in paganism. What. Ever. As for this being un-Christian of these people: I am surrounded by Christians who tell me of their kindness and fellowship, how they love everyone and we are all God's children. That is not how this group treated us. so many Christians say that, but then do not practice what they preach. I feel that is true of these people. If my daughter is a lamb in Jesus' flock, she has surely been used as the sacrificial one by this group. hmmmmm Again. all I can say is I disagree. I think it's possible that the group could have been kind, loving, and think you are created by God and still want their group to be more a more exclusive christian fellowship. Does that stink for you? Well sure, no doubt about it. But I don't think that neccessarily means they are unchristian in how they handled it. As for being a sacrificial lamb, that's largely based on how you handle it and choose to view yourselves in this. I agree with Erica that you have a great opportunity to have a powerful affect on how your dd handles this and similiar cases of rejection in the future. And it WILL happen again. We all suffer rejection repeatedly in life and have to figure out a way to heal and cope and move past it. I think you have a great chance to equip your dd in a positive way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 What could you possibly say to a child that was "truthful" and at the same time not be incurably hurtful (or indeed cruel)? I rack my brain searching for the words, but they do not come. Bill I tell my kids something like this: "Some people don't know what we believe and don't want to learn it. Some people just want to be with people like themselves, some of the time or all of the time. It really has nothing to do with us or with you. It's about what they want. This time what they want is not what we want. We can't make them do what we want, so we'll just have to keep doing what's right for us and we'll find other things we want to do and other people that we want to do them with. They don't mean to hurt your feelings. Sometimes other people will want us to do something we don't want to too and maybe we'll unintentionally hurt their feelings or we won't be able to avoid hurting their feelings. These things are just a part of life." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom to Aly Posted September 17, 2008 Author Share Posted September 17, 2008 I tell my kids something like this: "Some people don't know what we believe and don't want to learn it. Some people just want to be with people like themselves, some of the time or all of the time. It really has nothing to do with us or with you. It's about what they want. This time what they want is not what we want. We can't make them do what we want, so we'll just have to keep doing what's right for us and we'll find other things we want to do and other people that we want to do them with. They don't mean to hurt your feelings. Sometimes other people will want us to do something we don't want to too and maybe we'll unintentionally hurt their feelings or we won't be able to avoid hurting their feelings. These things are just a part of life." Martha: You said I called them intolerant, bigoted and un-Christian. Actually, someone else did, and I agreed. But, the above quote is from you, and: from the Merriam Webster Online Dictionary: intolerant: : unwilling to grant equal freedom of expression especially in religious matters bigoted: : a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices ; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance No example of hatred, but intolerance? Definitely. And un-Christian? I stand by what I said earlier. I rest my case. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Academy of Jedi Arts Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 What could you possibly say to a child that was "truthful" and at the same time not be incurably hurtful (or indeed cruel)? I rack my brain searching for the words, but they do not come. Bill I would leave the religion out of it and talk about it as I would any other type of prejudice. Happy, confident people simply do not treat others this way. While it is easy for us to get angry, it is much harder to try to put ourselves in someone else's shoes. I always say that you never know what goes on behind the closed doors of other people's homes. Most prejudice comes out of insecurity and/or fear combined with ignorance. Add to that an unhappy home life, financial insecurity, few accomplishments, or a whole host of other possibilities and it's a recipe for the kind of self-righteous bigotry which leads people to act out in ways like chastising children wearing Halloween costumes or micromanaging thier own children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisawa Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Oh my goodness! I am outraged!! Outraged I tell you... I am so, sorry... I am so sorry for your precious daughter.... how dissapointing.... I just want to go shake my finger at them!!! Consider letting her play because she is of a different faith... pulease...... I hope this works out... I have not read one post below this yet so if it has already been worked out.... I hope its for the best! :grouphug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emzhengjiu Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 I'm so sorry your daughter won't be able to participate with this group. Sometimes I think it hurts us as parents more than our children. Although I believe strongly that private groups have a right to limit their membership, how your situation was handled seems unkind. To be fair as someone here pointed out, we're hearing only one side. Several posters have made great suggestions for Mom to Aly. But as a single mom with limited income, I absolutely understand the depth of disappointment and frustration when affordable, doable opportunities such as this vanish. Thankfully, through all the tough times I know Jesus will provide for our needs even though our circumstances can still be very hard. Even in tears, I have the joy of the Lord in my heart. Still if Mom to Aly's life is anything like mine, it can be so painful to want simple things for our children such as participating on a sports team that so many other children have and lose the chance. I think it would be especially painful when the group is Christian since our Lord reached out to so many hurting people. Whether the group's decision was right or wrong is less important to me than the fact that they as Christians missed an opportunity to minister to a family in the name of Christ. Mom to Aly, my daughters and I will be praying that wonderful opportunities open up for both of you soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murphy101 Posted September 17, 2008 Share Posted September 17, 2008 Martha: You said I called them intolerant, bigoted and un-Christian. Actually, someone else did, and I agreed. But, the above quote is from you, I wrote that I'd explain it to my kid as: Some people don't know what we believe and don't want to learn it. Some people just want to be with people like themselves, some of the time or all of the time Those things alone do not an intolorant bigot make. It simply is the way it is for many people. Maybe they just feel they need to seek support in their own faith more than they need to include someone of another faith. Maybe they just aren't interested in learning about other cultures. You gave the following: from the Merriam Webster Online Dictionary: intolerant: : unwilling to grant equal freedom of expression especially in religious matters I don't see how not having your dd on their team is denying you any freedoms of expression, religious or otherwise. If anything it appears you have a problem with them freely expressing a desire to stay more christian focused.:confused: bigoted: : a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices ; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance I just don't see that happening with any of the info you've given me. You don't know that any members of that group feel that way just because they don't want you in their group. Just not admitting you does not mean they hate you or are even intolorant of you. It could mean nothing more than that they have decided to limit membership to the group to christians or those of a more christian background because their primary goal is to support their fellow christian and or to have a christian team for their children to play on. It's highly possible it has much less to do with you being hindu than with them wanting to have a mroe christian group. And un-Christian? I stand by what I said earlier. I rest my case. ;) I say this as charitibly as I can... What a non-christian thinks is christian is not what any christian should base their faith or actions on. Do you base what is proper for you to do in your hindu faith on what christians think you should do? Surely not? That would put the opinion of total strangers who don't even share or live your faith above what might actually be true and required for your religion! It simply would not make sense or be of practical help in developing a proper understanding of one's own religion to base how one practices their faith on the opinion of non-believers.:confused: I think it stinks your dd can't do the sport she'd like. But I don't think it makes those in that group unchristian bigots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 That's okay, I didn't do it for rep, Honey, I did it for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdie Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 There are always two sides to every story, and in this case maybe three. The Blind Men and the Elephant It was six men of Indostan To learning much inclined, Who went to see the Elephant (Though all of them were blind), That each by observation Might satisfy his mind They conclude that the elephant is like a wall, snake, spear, tree, fan, or rope, depending upon where they touch. They have a heated debate that does not come to physical violence. But in Saxe's version, the conflict is never resolved. Moral: So oft in theologic wars, The disputants, I ween, Rail on in utter ignorance Of what each other mean, And prate about an Elephant Not one of them has seen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom to Aly Posted September 18, 2008 Author Share Posted September 18, 2008 Well, Martha, I guess we both have our point of view. I think they were obviously intolerant, and, for what is professed to be Christian values, I think, and most people here agree, they definitely did not demonstrate them. We can argue semantics forever, but it won't change anything. But, again, I know that in the end, it was their prerogative to do what they did, and all I was looking for was some support, which, for the most part, I have gotten--not an arguement. I know I've certainly supported my end of it, because it really has irritated me that I had to defend myself in this, even though I wasn't trying to criticize them, but I wish this could just be ended. I do feel so much better, and want to thank everyone here. I have been looking into other options, and am trying to put some field trips together with my local hs group. I want to sincerely thank everyone here for their suggestions and well wishes, including you, Martha--even if we don't see eye to eye on certain issues, I do appreciate your sympathy and well wishes. Thank you all, so much!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peela Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 I only just came across this thread and it has me in tears, actually. I have a special affinity with and love for Hindus- I have been in India three times and Bali twice- and it is not an "exclusive" type religion, as Christianity or Islam can be- there's no sense of 'us and them' at all. It is so inclusive and warm. But I guess it's all a lesson- you are getting stronger, your daughter is getting stronger-the prejudice is what it is, as horrible as it is- and you will both be fine as long as you don't let it make you bitter at all. I doubt you will do that. I am just sorry, on behalf of a culture that has been doing this to people it perceives as "other" for a long, long time. It is our loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keroro Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 I agreed with your post. My question was for the group in general, not you in particular. There were several harsh posts, and I didn't feel like digging them up and/or singling people out. I just wanted to offer a little perspective for all. I am very sorry for the misunderstanding. You actually did single mine out in an earlier post. :001_smile: I stand by what I said. In my opinion the group behaved in a most un-Christ like manner. I didn't post to attack the other group. My goal was the same as yours, to provide support for Aly and her mom. If you have any additional criticisms about my statement please send me a pm. I really don't want to hijack this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sammy Posted September 18, 2008 Share Posted September 18, 2008 I would leave the religion out of it and talk about it as I would any other type of prejudice. Happy, confident people simply do not treat others this way. While it is easy for us to get angry, it is much harder to try to put ourselves in someone else's shoes. I always say that you never know what goes on behind the closed doors of other people's homes. Most prejudice comes out of insecurity and/or fear combined with ignorance. Add to that an unhappy home life, financial insecurity, few accomplishments, or a whole host of other possibilities and it's a recipe for the kind of self-righteous bigotry which leads people to act out in ways like chastising children wearing Halloween costumes or micromanaging thier own children. This is so true. People who are confident in their faith do not fear others, most especially little Hindu girls. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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