How do you deal with the chronic complainer and negotiator? Chore day rant.

[DesertBlossom]

For the past few years we've all gotten up and done chores on Saturday. My kids are youngish (oldest will be 10) so they've been easier chores. Things that shouldn't take longer than 30-60 min and the rest of their day is free.

 

My oldest is a chronic complainer. (Chores are too hard. Why doesn't the 5 year old have to do the same kind of chores? Why can't x chore count as 2 because it's a big chore? My friends don't have to do chores. You don't have any chores to do.) Throughout the week he complains about how much he hates Saturday because of chores. He complains about his weekday chores too. But his theatrics on Saturday are something else.

 

I have learned (am learning still) to not react to him, remain calm, etc because that always blows up in my face. I've tried to make it fun. (If everyone gets chores done by x o'clock we'll go get slushies.) They get paid a small allowance and chores they don't do are subtracted from the amount.

 

And yet still, years of doing this and *I* hate Saturdays because of his chronic complaining.

 

I've decided he's a "negative Nancy" about most things. Which maybe I just need to learn to deal with it in a different way. But my goodess, it is so draining!

[Catwoman]

No advice, just :grouphug:

[Carol in Cal.]

Ticket system.

He gets 10 tickets in the morning.

Everytime he reasks a question you have already answered, or complains, you take a ticket away.

You don't argue about this.  You just say, "Please give me a ticket."  If he complains about that, you say, "Please give me another one."  Lather, rinse, repeat.

At the end of the day you record how many tickets are left.

The next day you start fresh.

There needs to be some dire consequence if he loses all in one day.  I don't know what that should be.  

You can give an extra ticket for 'above and beyond' type achievement, but he can't ask for those.

Once he has amassed 100 ticket credits, there is a big fat reward that he knows about in advance.

[redsquirrel]

I think of a penalty that I implement.  For example: We are done talking about this.  If I hear one more complaint, that involves verbal commentary, slamming things around or doing your job badly, or really anything else that annoys me then you have to pay me .25.  Do it again and it is .50

 

and it keeps going from there.

 

Or I give the same speech and I will take a chore from a sibling and give it to the complainer. When they scream etc I tell them if I head one more peep I will give them another, and if they keep it up they can do ALL the chores.

 

I am not one of those who expects smiling children etc. I will let my kids grumble to some extent because I grumble as well. Chores suck and there is no use denying it. BUT your distaste for the chores isn't greater than my distaste for the chores and it doesn't get you out of it. If I am spending so much time managing your complaining that I can't do my own work, then there will be penalties.

 

 

[MaeFlowers]

I respond to complaints as if their cheers. So if ds complains about changing his sheets, I say in a cheery voice, "I'm so glad you like doing that. Since, you like cleaning so much, you can clean the toilets when you're done!" Shuts him up, quick. (And I don't actually make him clean the toilets.)

I find this works on lots of things, even school work.

[Miss Mousie]

I think of a penalty that I implement.  For example: We are done talking about this.  If I hear one more complaint, that involves verbal commentary, slamming things around or doing your job badly, or really anything else that annoys me then you have to pay me .25.  Do it again and it is .50

 

and it keeps going from there.

 

Or I give the same speech and I will take a chore from a sibling and give it to the complainer. When they scream etc I tell them if I head one more peep I will give them another, and if they keep it up they can do ALL the chores.

 

I am not one of those who expects smiling children etc. I will let my kids grumble to some extent because I grumble as well. Chores suck and there is no use denying it. BUT your distaste for the chores isn't greater than my distaste for the chores and it doesn't get you out of it. If I am spending so much time managing your complaining that I can't do my own work, then there will be penalties.

 

I have had pretty good success with fines.  Also with not paying for the chores at all if they aren't done well the first time, and tacking on additional chores (if I can think of one he already knows how to do).

 

At the same time, I try to model and verbally narrate how much more pleasant and efficient it is to work with good cheer.  I will say aloud that I don't particularly enjoy washing dishes but I'm glad when my family has clean dishes to use, and so on.

 

I will also point out how the nasty mood seems to stretch out the chore, making it seem like it takes forever, and the bad feeling lingers long after the work is finished.

 

[Katy]

A consequence system where the consequence is equal to twice as long as it takes to do the chore.   First figure out exactly how much time chores should take.  This is what we do, we don't complain about it, we just do it.  If we complain there will be consequences.

 

Take the time to literally set a stopwatch and figure out exactly how long someone's chores take.  We split it up into morning, afternoon, music practice, and evening chores.  Each set of chores takes a certain number of minutes for each child.

 

An example:  Morning chores = making bed, brushing teeth, putting clothes in hamper, wiping out sink with lysol wipe.  That takes about 5 minutes.  If kid doesn't do the chores OR complains about them (before doing them or in a whiny tone), they get a consequence equal to twice the number of minutes it takes to do the chore, then they still have to do the chore.  That consequence could mean 10 minutes less screen time, or ten minutes doing callesthenics (pushups till failure, situps till failure, leg levers till failure, rotating for 10 minutes), or 10 minutes running laps, or maybe even 10 minutes doing the chores normally done by a sibling, etc.

 

 

Note:  I don't mind respectfully asking to change something in a non-whiny tone at an appropriate time.  If a child says that it's not fair for only him to be responsible for unloading the dishwasher because at the sibling's age he was doing that already, I don't mind that conversation.  I do mind the whiny disrespectful complaining solely because child doesn't want to stop screen time right now to go do the chore.

[HomeAgain]

"Talk to me when you can tell me 5 good things."  Then walk away.  If he really needs to say something, he'll come up with 5 good (and true) things.  The goal is to redirect his thinking to be more positive, and that's not something that's easily taught with just consequences.  The active push to do it helps with some kids.

[DesertBlossom]

Thank you for the advice so far.

 

I need butt pats for not losing my temper with him. I ignored his monologue "Why can't mowing the lawn be two chores? I don't care if I don't get paid. I'm not doing any of my chores." (Coincidentally the 6 year old mowed his portion of the lawn without complaint and moved on to his other chores, so I know it's not too hard)

 

Then he started harassing my other kids because he was pissed about chores. It was at that point I didn't want to deal with it anymore. So I told him to get in the car. He surprisingly went willingly bc he didn't know wherr we were going. I dropped him off at DH's work, which I've never done before. DH works hard and between his regular job and his military obligations he hasn't had a day off in almost 2 weeks. DS didn't want to go in so I had to forcibly remove him from the car. He can help DH there and then come home and do his chores.

 

It just blows my mind that he has managed to develop this self-centered, entitled attitude. He's got the rest of the day to do whatever he wants if he just gets his chores done. Now, I will admit that once his a blue moon he gets up and done his chores quickly and without complaint. Sometimes he gets them done with minimal complaining. But most of the time it's like hostage negotiations over here. I am just so tired of it!

[happi duck]

(Hugs)

[ErinE]

First, I think mowing the lawn is a big chore for a ten-year old. I'm short for an adult, but strong, and I have a tough time mowing the lawn. I would reconsider that being a part of his chores.

 

Complaints are handled directly. "I understand doing chores is tough. To me, complaining makes it worse." I will sometimes use humor: "Ugh. Why do I have to pick up this sock? It's the world's heaviest sock." ~Stumble over to the clothes hamper then sprawl on the floor panting in exhaustion~ "Oh no! There's another sock. Ugh! Why are there always two?"

 

As far as doing chores, my advice is different from the other posters. I think you need to find positive reinforcement as opposed to negative. Otherwise, you run into this situation:

 

Mom: Please clean your room.

Kid: No. I hate cleaning my room!

Mom: That's $0.25. Clean your room please.

Kid: No! I hate it! Why do I have to clean my room? Johnny doesn't have to clean HIS room.

Mom: That's $0.50. Clean your room.

Kid: Fine! I don't care! Take all my money! You can't make me clean my room!

 

This applies to tickets, more chores, whatever. And the kid is right. You can't physically make him or her clean the room.

 

I have this child so I've had to completely re-think my parenting approach.

 

Our interaction is now like this:

Mom: It's family movie night tonight. Please clean your room so we can all watch the movie together. I'll help you.

Kid: No! I hate cleaning my room.

Mom: I understand. Doing chores can be so unpleasant. But if we don't clean up after ourselves, we'll end up buried under a pile of trash and eventually eaten by wild dogs. Let's work together so we can  watch our movie.

Kid: No! You can't make me.

Mom: You're absolutely right. I can't make you clean your room, but you won't watch the movie with the family until it's clean. Hang out here while I go do my chores. I'll see you soon.

 

Later on:

Mom: Man, your room is still a mess. I'll help you clean.

Kid: No! You can't make me.

Mom: Ok. I'll check in with you in a bit. 

 

I repeat this until the movie begins and sometimes when the child suddenly decides to clean, I miss part of the movie helping out, because it's worth it for me to have the chores done. Children have missed family movie night due to refusal to clean and in my mind, that's okay. He or she made the choice to skip it. 

 

[Paige]

I have sympathy for the kid. My mother has talked of how when she was a child Saturdays were always chore days and she hated it. Even as a senior adult she remembers how much she hated having nothing to look forward to on the weekend.

 

Why can't you give him some power or at least some choice here and listen to his complaints? Maybe he could agree to do some of his Saturday chores throughout the week so that he has more free time Saturday. Maybe you could offer to let him pay someone to do his chores. If he doesn't have the money, he can do extra chores to earn it! LOL! I'm not suggesting that he don't do chores, but maybe with some flexibility he can come up with a solution that will make both of you happy.

 

He's 10 and going to enter the testing teens soon enough. I think learning to negotiate and listen to our kids and learning to move towards a more cooperative approach instead of shutting down all complaints is very helpful to keeping the peace and keeping communication.

 

My oldest is definitely a whiner and complainer and arguer, so I can completely relate to your frustration. When all else fails, my best tactic is to repeat what my instructions are, leave the area and ignore all complaints, and enforce consequences if the job isn't done, and that's it. You can't enforce compliance. 

[DesertBlossom]

First, I think mowing the lawn is a big chore for a ten-year old. I'm short for an adult, but strong, and I have a tough time mowing the lawn. I would reconsider that being a part of his chores.

 

Complaints are handled directly. "I understand doing chores is tough. To me, complaining makes it worse." I will sometimes use humor: "Ugh. Why do I have to pick up this sock? It's the world's heaviest sock." ~Stumble over to the clothes hamper then sprawl on the floor panting in exhaustion~ "Oh no! There's another sock. Ugh! Why are there always two?"

 

As far as doing chores, my advice is different from the other posters. I think you need to find positive reinforcement as opposed to negative. Otherwise, you run into this situation:

 

Mom: Please clean your room.

Kid: No. I hate cleaning my room!

Mom: That's $0.25. Clean your room please.

Kid: No! I hate it! Why do I have to clean my room? Johnny doesn't have to clean HIS room.

Mom: That's $0.50. Clean your room.

Kid: Fine! I don't care! Take all my money! You can't make me clean my room!

 

This applies to tickets, more chores, whatever. And the kid is right. You can't physically make him or her clean the room.

 

I have this child so I've had to completely re-think my parenting approach.

 

Our interaction is now like this:

Mom: It's family movie night tonight. Please clean your room so we can all watch the movie together. I'll help you.

Kid: No! I hate cleaning my room.

Mom: I understand. Doing chores can be so unpleasant. But if we don't clean up after ourselves, we'll end up buried under a pile of trash and eventually eaten by wild dogs. Let's work together so we can watch our movie.

Kid: No! You can't make me.

Mom: You're absolutely right. I can't make you clean your room, but you won't watch the movie with the family until it's clean. Hang out here while I go do my chores. I'll see you soon.

 

Later on:

Mom: Man, your room is still a mess. I'll help you clean.

Kid: No! You can't make me.

Mom: Ok. I'll check in with you in a bit.

 

I repeat this until the movie begins and sometimes when the child suddenly decides to clean, I miss part of the movie helping out, because it's worth it for me to have the chores done. Children have missed family movie night due to refusal to clean and in my mind, that's okay. He or she made the choice to skip it.

Mowing the lawn in hard, but we also have an easy-start self-propelled mower. And I do help empty the grass catcher and such. And considering my 6 year old can do and will volunteer for it, I'm not inclined to think it's too hard. Today it was the lawn. Next time it will be the (insert whatever chore he doesn't want to do it)

 

I do agree with you about the negative consequences. I know from experience that if I tack on extra chores, it will just send him spiraling faster and further. If he was pissed about 3 chores, 4 chores will send him over the edge. I've found it more effective to tell him no Wii or computer privileges until after his chores are done. He is at least motivated by that. But the problem is, unless he decides himself that the privileges are worth it, he's going to ornery and disruptive. I feel like I've gotten a lot better about controlling my own emotions in situations like this, but it's emotionally draining. And like I said, today he was being disruptive. There was nothing to do besides harrass the kids who were actually doing their chores and that's when I couldn't take it anymore.

[fairfarmhand]

Son, since you are old enough to be more responsible, I will allow you to choose when you will get your chores done. They can be done Friday, Saturday, or Sunday. However, you won't get any wii or computer time on saturday or sunday until the chores are completed.

[DesertBlossom]

I have sympathy for the kid. My mother has talked of how when she was a child Saturdays were always chore days and she hated it. Even as a senior adult she remembers how much she hated having nothing to look forward to on the weekend.

 

Why can't you give him some power or at least some choice here and listen to his complaints? Maybe he could agree to do some of his Saturday chores throughout the week so that he has more free time Saturday. Maybe you could offer to let him pay someone to do his chores. If he doesn't have the money, he can do extra chores to earn it! LOL! I'm not suggesting that he don't do chores, but maybe with some flexibility he can come up with a solution that will make both of you happy.

 

He's 10 and going to enter the testing teens soon enough. I think learning to negotiate and listen to our kids and learning to move towards a more cooperative approach instead of shutting down all complaints is very helpful to keeping the peace and keeping communication.

 

My oldest is definitely a whiner and complainer and arguer, so I can completely relate to your frustration. When all else fails, my best tactic is to repeat what my instructions are, leave the area and ignore all complaints, and enforce consequences if the job isn't done, and that's it. You can't enforce compliance.

I understand where you're coming from, but I do feel like chores are important. I feel like everyone living (and eating and sleeping here) can help out. We've done "after-dinner" chores here for years where we split up the table, dishes and toys and at least half the time he's pitching a fit about it.

 

For Saturday chores, It's only 10am and my other kids are already done and playing games. Chores are hardly an all-day event.

 

I do try to listen to him and take ito consideration his feelings. Typically on Saturday I pick one chore I really want/need done and the other 2 I am willing to negotiate on or I will give them several options to choose from. And if one is a big chore, the others are pretty fast and easy. With him though, everything has to be negotiated down to nothing, which doesn't fly herr.

[fairfarmhand]

Also, give him some chore choice.

 

Divvy up the chores into groups "Hard" "Medium" and "Easy"

 

Tell him that "Hard" chores are equal to 2 medium chores or 3 easy chores. So he has to chose the equivalent of 2 hard, 2 medium and 2 easy chores each Saturday.

 

Alternately, negotiate with him. Tell him if he's willing to do all the dishwork or laundry ALL week, you'll be glad to do his mowing for him.

 

Allow the 6 yr old to bargain (while you are there to make sure everything is fair) his part of the chores for your oldest's mowing.

[DesertBlossom]

Son, since you are old enough to be more responsible, I will allow you to choose when you will get your chores done. They can be done Friday, Saturday, or Sunday. However, you won't get any wii or computer time on saturday or sunday until the chores are completed.

 

Well, this is essentially what it has come down to. Either that or he loses the money when someone else does the chores for him. (He says he doesn't care about the money, even though he's got some expensive things he's wanting.)

 

It's just the constant whining and attempts at negotiation that are so draining. And then when he's bored (because he's got no privileges) the acting out and bothering people is downright unacceptable.

 

At the moment, his only motivation is computer and wii privileges.

[fairfarmhand]

Well, this is essentially what it has come down to. Either that or he loses the money when someone else does the chores for him. (He says he doesn't care about the money, even though he's got some expensive things he's wanting.)

 

It's just the constant whining and attempts at negotiation that are so draining. And then when he's bored (because he's got no privileges) the acting out and bothering people is downright unacceptable.

 

At the moment, his only motivation is computer and wii privileges.

 

Yeah, I know it's hard.

 

The only thing I figured out with my chronic griper is to give her choices so she could pick her poison so to speak.

She also learned some perspective, stuff like an hour of mowing on Saturday was better than 3 hours of dishwork spread out over the course of the week.

 

But yeah, it is draining to be around all the time;

 

The pestering because of boredom is so frustrating too.

[Katy]

I'd try to figure out some sort of service project at this point.  But then a whiny kid has two things going against him in my house:  Even though I was a whiny kid, I cannot stand whiny kids.  It's a pet peeve of mine.  And entitled attitudes are a pet peeve of DH's. 

 

Honestly I'd probably combine a service project (helping someone much less well off than your family) with a long term consequence of NEVER ALLOWING COMPLAINTS about chores again.  As in, you get ten more complaints in your entire life. If you complain three more times, you lose the Wii for a month. If you complain three more times, you lose it for three months.  If you complain four more times after that, we're getting rid of it forever.  I've only had to do this sort of consequence once though.  Once the kids figured out I will follow through, they assume I will & there's not as much back talk.

 

And while I cannot stand whiny kids, one consequence I have used when they get privileges removed is basically tether training them:  IE they must spend all their time with me when privileges are removed.  And then they get to help me with my chores whether they want to or not.

[redsquirrel]

You do get butt pats!

 

Listen, I am not as hard a@@ed as my previous post might have come across. I really do try to start with humor and good cheer etc. But both my kids have been absolute jerks at a certain age...around 8-9- when they were impossible on this topic.  The complaining just went on and on, to the point where nothing could happen because we are all dealing with his acting out.  I like to think of myself as pretty fair, and I am totally willing to work with the kids if there is something they don't like, but honestly, I ask them to do almost nothing, so a picking up of toys isn't going to kill them.

 

So, maybe my kids would have grown out of it. They are older and very pleasant when asked to do stuff now. But that might also have something to do with the fact that they get an allowance and getting said allowance is directly related to doing their chores. I know "paying kids for things they should be doing anyway" is controversial to some, but hey, my kids need pocket money and I need the dishwasher emptied and the recycling taken out.

[AK_Mom4]

For years with my older kids, we had a chore-rotation.  I made it out a YEAR in advance so everyone could see that it was fair and that you might have the tough job this week, but next week you got the easy one.  They also had the option of "buying out" their chore week by paying a sibling or trading out with me for some yucky tasks I needed doing (clean the Dog Yard, anyone? - two hours of misery in exchange for emptying the dishwasher that week). 

 

Rotating chores plus the buyout option finally put an end to my chronic complainer.  He still didn't *like* chores, but he had options and a bit of control.

[DesertBlossom]

I'd try to figure out some sort of service project at this point. But then a whiny kid has two things going against him in my house: Even though I was a whiny kid, I cannot stand whiny kids. It's a pet peeve of mine. And entitled attitudes are a pet peeve of DH's.

 

Honestly I'd probably combine a service project (helping someone much less well off than your family) with a long term consequence of NEVER ALLOWING COMPLAINTS about chores again. As in, you get ten more complaints in your entire life. If you complain three more times, you lose the Wii for a month. If you complain three more times, you lose it for three months. If you complain four more times after that, we're getting rid of it forever. I've only had to do this sort of consequence once though. Once the kids figured out I will follow through, they assume I will & there's not as much back talk.

 

And while I cannot stand whiny kids, one consequence I have used when they get privileges removed is basically tether training them: IE they must spend all their time with me when privileges are removed. And then they get to help me with my chores whether they want to or not.

I like the idea of a service project. We need to do more of that as a family anyway.

 

I am seriously considerind sending him to my ILs next summer for a couple weeks. They still work outside sun-up to sun-down and a couple weeks of that would probably humble the kid. He has no idea what a cushy life he leads.

 

I have to admit that forcing him to spend all day at my side sounds utterly miserable. This introvert needs her space. Not to mention I'm pregnant and have 4 other kids and I just have other things to do. Not to mention, he would flat out refuse. And since he's too big to physically force to stay by my side, I can't demand things of him that I can't enforce. He's a difficult kid, this one.

 

Wii privileges are something I can't take away entirely as it's my netflix access too. (Though I rarely get time for netflix) But it's also a privilege for the other kids. I do hide the remotes sometimes though. And our computer mouse is wireless so I can hide that too.

[DesertBlossom]

You do get butt pats!

 

Listen, I am not as hard a@@ed as my previous post might have come across. I really do try to start with humor and good cheer etc. But both my kids have been absolute jerks at a certain age...around 8-9- when they were impossible on this topic. The complaining just went on and on, to the point where nothing could happen because we are all dealing with his acting out. I like to think of myself as pretty fair, and I am totally willing to work with the kids if there is something they don't like, but honestly, I ask them to do almost nothing, so a picking up of toys isn't going to kill them.

 

So, maybe my kids would have grown out of it. They are older and very pleasant when asked to do stuff now. But that might also have something to do with the fact that they get an allowance and getting said allowance is directly related to doing their chores. I know "paying kids for things they should be doing anyway" is controversial to some, but hey, my kids need pocket money and I need the dishwasher emptied and the recycling taken out.

I appreciate the butt pats. It's really what I wanted. ;-) I should have prefaced my post with the fact that DS is a super bright and incredibly ornery and stubborn and highly emotional kid in general. The regular parenting tactics are a giant fail with this kid. I feel like in general things have improved a lot with him over the last few months. (He's no longer homeschooled for these same reasons.) He gets himself up each morning and has been responsible about getting ready and doing homework (with some complaining). I see glimmers of hope for his future. But he is still is so draining sometimes. He takes more emotional energy than my other kids combined.

[Loowit]

For me it very much depends on which of my children it is.  If it is my oldest, I tell her to go complain in her room, but no free time until it is done.  Usually that gets her going.  She knows she can complain in her head all she wants, but i don't want to hear the negativity.  And she is able to figure out getting her chore done right away gets her more time to do what she wants.  My middle has taken to pouting, but I find if I come at it with empathy it help.  I start with saying that I know it isn't his favorite thing in the word, but we need X and Y done before he can have free time.  Some times I will offer an incentive that if he does a chore without complaining he can have a privilege, like extra screen time or something.

 

My youngest is my challenge.  I can't make him do anything and he knows it, and I know it.  He has ODD and negative consequences are a sure way to escalate the situation and not get the chore done.  I make sure he knows ahead of time what chore he is going to be doing, tell him no free time until it is done and then leave it up to him.  He can go do the chore right away or he can go pout on his bed all day, it is his choice.  He likes having that control and it really doesn't cost me much to give it to him.  I may want his chore done sooner, but it is not worth the angry words and fighting.  There are days like today when he goes and gets it done right way, and other days he lays on his bed complaining for hours.

[Katy]

There's a radio guy who has a rant about the social & moral obligation to be happy.  I think maybe Dennis Prager?  I'm pretty sure he's got some free podcasts out about it.  You might try searching for them, find one you like, play for kiddos, and then consequence the complaining.

[DesertBlossom]

My youngest is my challenge. I can't make him do anything and he knows it, and I know it. He has ODD and negative consequences are a sure way to escalate the situation and not get the chore done. I make sure he knows ahead of time what chore he is going to be doing, tell him no free time until it is done and then leave it up to him. He can go do the chore right away or he can go pout on his bed all day, it is his choice. He likes having that control and it really doesn't cost me much to give it to him. I may want his chore done sooner, but it is not worth the angry words and fighting. There are days like today when he goes and gets it done right way, and other days he lays on his bed complaining for hours.

This probably best describes DS. I don't know that he'd qualify as ODD, but negative consequences are never effective and will always just escalate the situation. He's the kind of kid that if he doesn't see a purpose in doing something, he won't do it. So for example if he doesn't mind the mess, and I am perfectly capable of cleaning it, why should he? And while I understand dangling the carrot in front of him (like with slushies, for example) sometimes we just have to do things because we're part of a family and we help out. I shouldn't have to dangle carrots for him to clean up after himself.

 

I'd be fine if he just laid on his bed complaining about his unfair lot in life. Instead he becomes hell-bent on making everyone feel as ornery as he does which is why I hauled his butt to dad's work.

 

It worked for today because I was trying to avoid my own meltdown. But when he gets home and realizes he still has chores to do and the day is half gone, he's going to be upset.

[redsquirrel]

I appreciate the butt pats. It's really what I wanted. ;-) I should have prefaced my post with the fact that DS is a super bright and incredibly ornery and stubborn and highly emotional kid in general. The regular parenting tactics are a giant fail with this kid. I feel like in general things have improved a lot with him over the last few months. (He's no longer homeschooled for these same reasons.) He gets himself up each morning and has been responsible about getting ready and doing homework (with some complaining). I see glimmers of hope for his future. But he is still is so draining sometimes. He takes more emotional energy than my other kids combined.

 

That is both my kids.  I always forget that until I talk to other people, lol. But that really is both of them.  And I have zero idea where they get that ornery, super stubborn part, I have never been accused of such a thing.  #Iamlying

You know it's intense when the pediatrician asks you if you need a hug, lol.

 

So, that might be part of why the chore battle works out quickly in this house, b/c like meets like and I am old and wiley.

 

And on my second time around I am saying that homeschooling 5th grade just might kill me, so I understand why you are not homeschooling this kid. I ask my self that same question every. single. day. these days.  His older brother went off to public high school and it has been fantastic, lol.

 

If I make it to 8th grade with this one...I get butt pats!

 

[DesertBlossom]

There's a radio guy who has a rant about the social & moral obligation to be happy. I think maybe Dennis Prager? I'm pretty sure he's got some free podcasts out about it. You might try searching for them, find one you like, play for kiddos, and then consequence the complaining.

I'll have to look that up. He does have a victim mentality and he focuses on all the (perceived) injustices done to him rather than the good things that are going on his life. We've talked a little bit about making the choice to focus on the good things, but it seems to fall on deaf ears.

[fairfarmhand]

you are describing my oldest at age 10. From the negative consequences escalating to the making everyone miserable to being the victim.

 

I totally get it.

 

Buckle your seat belt, because middle school age to early high school is just crazy with kids like that.

 

It's like they can't look ahead to rewards or punishments. They can't look back to past consequences and learn. All that matters is RIGHT NOW and these FEELINGS THAT ARE SO HUGE!!!! So they'll spend 2 hours falling apart over a 20 minute chore. It is ridiculous.

 

Hang in there mom!

 

It is hard, but one day he will become a normal, even sometimes pleasant person to be around.

 

About the time that you get to like him, he'll go off to college.

 

And he may come back to you for advice when he has just one like himself.

[DesertBlossom]

That is both my kids. I always forget that until I talk to other people, lol. But that really is both of them. And I have zero idea where they get that ornery, super stubborn part, I have never been accused of such a thing. #Iamlying

You know it's intense when the pediatrician asks you if you need a hug, lol.

 

So, that might be part of why the chore battle works out quickly in this house, b/c like meets like and I am old and wiley.

 

And on my second time around I am saying that homeschooling 5th grade just might kill me, so I understand why you are not homeschooling this kid. I ask my self that same question every. single. day. these days. His older brother went off to public high school and it has been fantastic, lol.

 

If I make it to 8th grade with this one...I get butt pats!

 

Ha! My siblings accuse me of being ornery and stubborn just like my dad, but I know they are lying. I'm not like that at all. I'm certain I inherited more of my mother's saintly personality. ;-)

 

No need to wait till 8th grade... you can have butt pats now because you deserve it. I'd like to keep homeschooling DS for the same reasons I am homeschooling my others, but the thought makes me want to crawl into a hole and cry. Apparently my oldest brother was much the same way as DS and in one of my (saintly) mother's journals she admitted that she was going to be relieved when he was all grown up. I totally get it now that I've got a kid just like him. My brother grew up to be productive member of society, so there's hope. Lol!

[Loowit]

This probably best describes DS. I don't know that he'd qualify as ODD, but negative consequences are never effective and will always just escalate the situation. He's the kind of kid that if he doesn't see a purpose in doing something, he won't do it. So for example if he doesn't mind the mess, and I am perfectly capable of cleaning it, why should he? And while I understand dangling the carrot in front of him (like with slushies, for example) sometimes we just have to do things because we're part of a family and we help out. I shouldn't have to dangle carrots for him to clean up after himself.

 

I'd be fine if he just laid on his bed complaining about his unfair lot in life. Instead he becomes hell-bent on making everyone feel as ornery as he does which is why I hauled his butt to dad's work.

 

It worked for today because I was trying to avoid my own meltdown. But when he gets home and realizes he still has chores to do and the day is half gone, he's going to be upset.

 

I am sorry.  It has taken us years of therapy to get to the point that he will remove himself to his room and complain rather than make everyone else miserable also, and it doesn't always happen.  He used to scream, throw things, threaten people, ...  It was miserable.  There are days I have to go hide in my room so that I don't yell at him.  And there are days that I am glad that DH is home to deal with him for a while so I can have a break.  I hope you are able to find something that works.

[T'smom]

I have an 8 year old that whines a lot. Something that has helped sometimes is to tell him that if he can't do something with a good (or at least not-terrible) attitude then he must need more practice. So I would add chores and tell him to practice. Sometimes I also act ridiculously over-the-top happy while "showing" him how to do it. Like if it was mowing the lawn, I would sing "oh what a beautiful day" and gushing over how much I LOVE to mow. The ridiculousness makes him laugh and helps reset our day.

[Tsuga]

I hate threads like this because I read them and I feel like, "Darn you all to heck for having kids that fall for these simple ruses!" My kid has tossed the tickets on the floor, screamed at the over-politeness, fallen apart and literally threatened suicide at her complaints not acknowledged. I hate it, but I never gave in to any of it and it never got better. Life was a constant battle. I hate it. I mean, what a waste of such a precious thing as life. And nothing worked.

 

Now, more for myself than her, I head it off. "Okay, I know, I know. Nobody else has to do chores, you can't do it because you're stupid, mom doesn't love you, why do we have to, blah blah. But we're going to do chores. I will explain it like every week, you'll throw a fit, then you'll whine, then read a book instead of doing it, I'llake a threat, you'll get punished and so on. Finally the whole day will be gone and you'll cry because we didn't get to do The Fun Reward thing. And I'll make dinner with a grumpy face and no game night because I can't take any more arguing. Sound like a plan?" I didn't yell, I just said it. Because at least if I tell them to do it I get my one flipping win.

 

And you know what? Their tiny faces were truly aghast and they said, "but mommy, we don't want to do that!" And they did their chores mostly without complaining.

 

When I sense this is going to be the case, now I just plan it into the day. They don't get the element of surprise at least. And most of the time they hate the plan so much they just finish early without whining.

 

But even when they follow the plan, at least I'm ready for it.

 

I don't even care how screwed up it is. How utterly disingenuous and ultimately scarring. The laundry gets done and we can go have fun as a family.

 

Though, I do think doing it on a day of the week and not all on Saturday is good for the family as well, less for the kids than for you.

 

Good luck.

[73349]

Can you blast some really fun, loud music that y'all can barely hear each other over?

 

Mom rocks out with the mop.

COMPLAINYFACE TWEEN: I hate these stupid chores!

MOM: I love this song!

COMPLAINYFACE TWEEN: This is taking forever!

SIBLING: I can't hear anybody!

Complainyface rolls eyes and finishes putting away the silverware, then storms out to mow the lawn.

[HS Mom in NC]

With my chronic complainer I had to stop taking things away one at a time for each infraction.  I started over with her losing everything and she has to earn privileges-they are no longer granted.  If she wants to have screen time and playdates, she has to not complain about school or chores. If she fails to earn it for the day and continues to complain then tomorrow's are revoked too. 

[katilac]

On the fun side, I used to go into full Barney mode when my kids complained too much about chores, exclaiming gleefully about the fun of cooperating and singing the Cleanup Song at full volume. 

 

I don't know how much it helped, but I felt better simply knowing that I was annoying them as much as they were annoying me. 

[mtomom]

You got a lot of great, practical (and varied) ideas! I hope one of them helps this particular situation.

 

But you did mention this may be a general personality thing. I've got one like that too. This book is good.

http://www.amazon.com/What-When-You-Grumble-Much/dp/1591474507

[Paige]

You got a lot of great, practical (and varied) ideas! I hope one of them helps this particular situation.

 

But you did mention this may be a general personality thing. I've got one like that too. This book is good.

http://www.amazon.com/What-When-You-Grumble-Much/dp/1591474507

 

 

I actually got that book for DS several years ago and it's not a life changer but it was helpful. It helped DS to recognize that he was part of the problem and it wasn't just that everything would be better if we quit asking him to do stuff he didn't want to do. 

[lynn]

First thing is to make sure he knows exactly what it is you expect him to do and that he knows how to do it.  Give him the list of chores you expect to be done and give him a reasonable amount of time to get them done.   This is what I have done with my boys.  I don't feel like I have to nag them I give them the list and let them know I expect this to be completed by  lunch time or whatever. 

[Plink]

Have you tried linking smaller rewards to bigger ones that are more kid friendly than cash?  My kids never actually spend their money, so giving them $x for good behavior was a bust.  They simply didn't care.

 

We were having an awful time with whining about schoolwork at the end of last year, and I decided to fill a jar with candy and gift cards.  For each complaint free day they got a candy.  When they got to the end of the jar they were taken on a special trip to spend their gift card.  The element of mystery helped to make it more fun too (here's more info: http://www.libertyhillhouse.com) It worked like magic.  

[*Lulu*]

I frequently tell my children that I am going to start practice "better parenting through using duct tape and electric shock".

[trulycrabby]

DS11 can generalize a small problem into a major one in three sentences or less less. DH and I just redirect his focus and emphasize that how you think is how you live: Positive thoughts make a positive life; negative thoughts make a negative life. The changes have not been instant and life changing, but over the course of a few years he now redirects himself when the negative thoughts get started. We love our sweet little Eyore, though. :001_wub:

[Tsuga]

With my chronic complainer I had to stop taking things away one at a time for each infraction. I started over with her losing everything and she has to earn privileges-they are no longer granted. If she wants to have screen time and playdates, she has to not complain about school or chores. If she fails to earn it for the day and continues to complain then tomorrow's are revoked too.

This resulted for us in just nothing ever. Because we have two kids, I ended up spending money on a sitter to watch the one without privileges so we could do fun things. I don't mind being punished but it gets expensive and boring.

 

The main result was for me to realize why we did so few fun things as kids. We actually didn't realize what we were missing because we didn't do fun stuff.

 

For us we had about one year of prison-like conditions before I decided to let them do more unconditionally. Because otherwise, she would forget what joy was like and promises of future fun would be meaningless.

[Tree Frog]

 

Or I give the same speech and I will take a chore from a sibling and give it to the complainer. When they scream etc I tell them if I head one more peep I will give them another, and if they keep it up they can do ALL the chores.

 

 

 

I've done something similar. If the grumbling is for grumbling's sake or has become a habit, I have told my children they need practice doing chores without grumbling. As long as the child grumbles, there are chores to be completed. Once the grumbling stops, the extra chores stop. It usually doesn't take more than once before they learn! However, be aware the grumbling will get worse before it gets better, and it's very important to be noncommittal and seemingly unconcerned about how many chores said child does. 

[Lucy the Valiant]

(No idea if this will help; just throwing it out there in case it spins off to something useful.)

 

One time when *all* of ours were falling into the habit if whining / complaining, we got 4 of the large baby-food jars and filled them up with peanut m&m's (a visible, colorful, special treat to our kiddos at the time) - one for each kid. Kept 'em out in public view, and made a big fuss over them. Told the kids they still had to do their (regular, not onerous) chores, but they were not to complain or "forget." If they did forget, I'd eat an m&m out of their jar (1 m&m for every "reminder" I had to give or complaint I heard); at the end of 3 days, each kid got all the m&m's in his own jar.

 

(In hindsight, DH and I were not sure if it was the actual m&m's that did the trick or the horrific idea that a sibling was going to get a treat that one kid didn't - haha! - but the overall plan did work. We've repeated it 2-3 times since, with good results. It also let us be on the kid's team - cheering that they would all get as many of their treats as possible.)

[SparklyUnicorn]

Maybe play some fun music and start calling it fun time.  LOL

 

I'm a complainer.  I get that it's annoying, but yep...I'm a complainer.

 

 

[Southern Ivy]

This sounds like what I would do when I was younger (about 10 or 11 - very stubborn, very independent, very emotional).
I vividly remember the day it stopped though. 

It was a Saturday and my only job for the day was to clean my room and it wasn't even that bad. It wouldn't have taken long. Mom told me a few times to clean my room and I would always answer back with "In a minute" or "I'll get to it later." Finally, my mom just left me alone and I thought I was peachy. 

Then, dinner time came. 

We sat down to dinner and I had nothing at my seat. Mom and Dad had their drinks, their plates, etc. I asked Mom where my stuff was and she replied with, "Oh, I'll get it in a minute." I got up and got my plate, but then when I asked them to pass the food, they said "In a minute." I knew what she was doing and it pissed me off, but I got up and cleaned my room. Mom came in and talked to me; we discussed how it made me feel and how she felt when I continually complained or brushed her off. She explained that we were a working household - we work as a family. 
I got to eat after that, but 24 years later, I still remember that lesson. 

Not saying that you have to do that. Some may not agree with it, but it certainly worked for me. 

ETA: 
I was so stubborn, very hard to deal with. I had done this to Mom multiple times before she did this, so she was at her wit's end. Also, I ended up ok. No emotional scars, just a hard lesson learned. :) 

[shage]

Yeah, I have one who was like this and (at age 13) is surprisingly more pleasant than I expected.  I have no idea if his improvement has to do with parenting, his friends, or perhaps even the hormone surge.  But he is better.

 

Some random thoughts:

 

(1) I gave up doing chores as a family because he would stir the pot.  I told, "Son, we love you and all but the complaining is a life suck and you are really are no fun as a co-worker.  You work better alone.  You can do your chores any time except when the other kids are doing theirs.  Sorry about that but we need our peace."

 

(2) I gave  him a huge amount of control over what chores he did.  Huge.  He got to pick what and mostly when.  And then I tied the completion of the chore to something he wanted.  Usually it was swim practice.  If his chores were done, I drove him.  Otherwise he had to take the bus (which I allowed) or miss practice. We have a policy that if the kids sign up for an activity and then willfully miss, they refund us the money for the miss. I didn't make a big deal about insisting he pay up because he knew if he didn't make good, we wouldn't resign him up.  So eventually he would pay.  And eventually he decided he wanted the ride.  Currently his chores are tied to go to a part time school (!!!!) and yes he gets up early to do them.  It makes no logical sense to me but it does to him.

 

(3) Quit worrying about him being spoiled.  It's all relative and kids don't understand the concept until they have broad life experience.  To them, it is just nagging.  Let that one go.  Some day when he travels to an impoverished country or volunteers at a homeless shelter he will understand.  Leave that lesson for when he can learn it first hand.

 

(4)  When he is being particularly difficult, spend time with him doing something special.  My husband and I would flip a coin to see who had to spend 1:1 time with our difficult child because it seemed so unfair that he would get extra attention.  But we would do it because it helped.  For no reason at all, take him to the park or the library or to get ice cream.  And don't discuss chores.  LOL.  I say that because I think a lot of oppositional children don't know how to politely ask for attention. 

Chew the fat, spit the bones.

 

[SparklyUnicorn]

This sounds like what I would do when I was younger (about 10 or 11 - very stubborn, very independent, very emotional).

I vividly remember the day it stopped though. 

It was a Saturday and my only job for the day was to clean my room and it wasn't even that bad. It wouldn't have taken long. Mom told me a few times to clean my room and I would always answer back with "In a minute" or "I'll get to it later." Finally, my mom just left me alone and I thought I was peachy. 

 

Then, dinner time came. 

 

We sat down to dinner and I had nothing at my seat. Mom and Dad had their drinks, their plates, etc. I asked Mom where my stuff was and she replied with, "Oh, I'll get it in a minute." I got up and got my plate, but then when I asked them to pass the food, they said "In a minute." I knew what she was doing and it pissed me off, but I got up and cleaned my room. Mom came in and talked to me; we discussed how it made me feel and how she felt when I continually complained or brushed her off. She explained that we were a working household - we work as a family. 

I got to eat after that, but 24 years later, I still remember that lesson. 

 

Not saying that you have to do that. Some may not agree with it, but it certainly worked for me. 

 

Hey that's clever. 

[Southern Ivy]

Hey that's clever. 

I could write a book on all of her unique punishments or discipline techniques. She had to be creative with me.  :lol: