No School in Two Years

[texasmama]

2 years of not doing school is NOT "making an effort to address the issue."  Neither is doing a level 1 math book for 3 1/2 years.  It just isn't. It's nonsense to claim it is.  We just can't let people off the hook for this kind of thing.

 

I can plainly see that the emperor isn't wearing any clothes.  If other people can't see it, that's their problem.  I'm sticking to my guns and stating the obvious no matter how uncomfortable it makes people. These children are entitled to a solid education.  Their parents are failing.  Someone with real authority needs to intervene for their sake.

I agree with the bolded.  Regarding your last sentence, there is no one with real authority in this instance who is likely to intervene.  I think that is what you are choking on.  I choke on it, too, but us choking does not change it. 

 

In the OP's shoes, I would do exactly what she is doing (trying to help a mom who realizes she needs help and is open to it).  If that help did not change the situation for the children, I would report up the chain to church authority (or, more likely, ask my dh to do it, since he is the one in church leadership, not the OP).

 

Also, regarding the first paragraph, I suspect that the poster you are responding to is referring to the help that is forthcoming from the OP and hoping that these efforts make an impact in the situation.  No one can fairly predict the outcome of this effort with as little information as we have on this family.

 

[TammyS]

2 years of not doing school is NOT "making an effort to address the issue." 

 

No, for  years she didn't.  But she is NOW and NOW is what matters.

 

SHE admitted the problem.

 

SHE took the steps to ask for help.

 

If you really believe that people trying to address their problems still deserve to be turned into the authorities, without any opportunity to turn things around first, you should do your friends the service of warning them that this is how you feel about things so that they know not to confide in you.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

No, for years she didn't. But she is NOW and NOW is what matters.

 

SHE admitted the problem.

 

SHE took the steps to ask for help.

 

If you really believe that people trying to address their problems still deserve to be turned into the authorities, without any opportunity to turn things around first, you should do your friends the service of warning them that this is how you feel about things so that they know not to confide in you.

There's a heartlessness manifested in this thread that disgusts me more than maggots. We appeal to the law on the other side of attempts at friendly intervention. If we lose this basic humanity we will receive the nanny state that we deserve.

[Catwoman]

There's a heartlessness manifested in this thread that disgusts me more than maggots. We appeal to the law on the other side of attempts at friendly intervention. If we lose this basic humanity we will receive the nanny state that we deserve.

:iagree:

 

I am shocked, saddened, and disgusted that anyone would even consider calling CPS on a personal friend who trusted her, confided in her, and asked her for advice on how to remedy a longstanding problem.

 

It seems like such an incredibly cold and backstabbing thing to do.

[8circles]

There's a heartlessness manifested in this thread that disgusts me more than maggots. We appeal to the law on the other side of attempts at friendly intervention. If we lose this basic humanity we will receive the nanny state that we deserve.

 

You can think me heartless if you want.  However, I know that I am not.  I don't view CPS in the same manner that many of you do.  What you have is children who are at the mercy of their parents who are not doing right by them.  I've been that child and I wish that someone had had the guts to report their suspicions instead of giving my parents the benefit of the doubt.  Not alerting CPS that there is potentially serious neglect in this home because the mom has thrown Chelli a bone of interest in doing better seems pretty heartless to me when I think about those children.  I have consistently been pro-helping and pro-reporting.  It isn't an either-or.  It isn't basic humanity to continue to have confidence in people who have shown themselves to be unworthy over a several-year period.  Those children deserve better from their parents & I think they also deserve better from people who see that something isn't right.  CPS reporting isn't a death-sentence.  As many of you have said, they'd probably do nothing anyway - so how that becomes heartless is beyond me.  They need help.  

 

I'm extremely bothered by your post, Tibbie.  It's unfair.

 

Best of luck to you, Chelli.  I hope that you're able to be a catalyst for change for that family.

[Haiku]

No, for years she didn't. But she is NOW and NOW is what matters.

 

SHE admitted the problem.

 

SHE took the steps to ask for help.

 

If you really believe that people trying to address their problems still deserve to be turned into the authorities, without any opportunity to turn things around first, you should do your friends the service of warning them that this is how you feel about things so that they know not to confide in you.

And where do the kids fit in while we throw a pity party for the poor mother and applaud her for possibly realizing the obvious? It's their lives that are being squandered while Mom flops around neglecting them. The cold truth is that sometimes, "trying" to fix your problems isn't good enough. You have to actually fix them. This mom has had two years to fix the problem and hasn't. Actually, given that her oldest child has had MUS Alpha for 3.5 years and hasn't finished it, Mom has apparently been neglecting his education for longer than 2 years.

 

I think that sometimes people are so worried about government regulation of homeschooling that they are unable or unwilling to admit that there are craptastic homeschoolers out there who are wrecking their kids' lives. Neglecting your kids' education is illegal.

 

I used to be a mandated reporter. It means that if you suspect or know that a child is being abused or neglected, you are obligated to report and are breaking the law if you don't. Educational neglect is neglect. It ought to be reported.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Edited to remove my life story. I don't need to justify anything. I still think the thread should be pulled.

 

 

 

[Chelli]

UPDATE (remember please don't quote):

 

I heard back from her tonight in answer to Albeto's question: What is your biggest hindrance to being consistent with school?

 

Her answer: Her and her husband are night owls. Sometimes they think about changing their bedtime habits but it's difficult and the benefits are so small that they don't have much interest anymore in keeping different hours. She wakes up at 9:00 and lays in bed checking Facebook, email, and other internet things until she gets mentally prepared for the day. The kids get up at 7:00 so in the two hours that her and her dh have been sleeping in the house is a disaster. Now the kids need breakfast, but she has to clean off the stove and table cleared so she can cook and they can eat so she has to stop and unload the dishwasher and reload it with last night's dishes to do this. It's usually 11 by the time she gets breakfast on the table. She needs some peace and quiet from the kids so she sends them outside to play intending to clean off the table for school while they are out, but gets on Facebook instead. She looks up and it's been an hour. Now it's time to work on something for lunch. Dishes are still messy from breakfast and other dishes as well so lunch makes it on the table by 1:30 on a good day. The one thing they do consistently is quiet time from 2:30 or 3:00 until 4:30 or 5:00. By that point there is no point in trying to start school since it's so late in the day. The kids play while she works on housework, her blog, laundry, whatever. Her dh comes home at 6 and she realizes dinner needs to get cooked, but the kitchen is still dirty. They usually eat at 8:30 or 9 while watching TV. The kids are in bed an hour later. Her and her dh watch TV until 1 or 2 at which point they are too tired to do any cleaning to make the next day easier so they go to bed and vow to do better tomorrow. Some days they do better which is why some school has been done, but typically what I've written above is what our days are like.

 

:cursing: So, basically, she's just not doing anything. It's not a curriculum issue or feeling overwhelmed; she's just not changing her behavior to school her children. At least it's obvious what I need to tell her, but I hold little hope it will be long lasting change. I'm definitely going to have a blunt, tough love conversation with her, but I'm not hopeful. Curriculum, scheduling, etc. I can deal with, but I can't make someone behave like a responsible adult. I'm feeling really frustrated about the entire situation again. 

 

Thanks for all of your help and suggestions. I'm so angry right now at her and her dh that I'm going to wait until tomorrow to reply to her. :cursing:

[8circles]

Chelli, many hugs.  What a crap situation.   :grouphug:

[idnib]

Wow, that's really maddening. I feel like my head is going to explode.

 

Not only are the kids not being educated, they're not getting any life skills like cleaning the house, putting things away, doing dishes, making breakfast.

 

What a disservice to the children and later, to society as well.

 

Deep breath.

 

The good news is there are some small tweaks that could make a big difference. (Wake up time, training kids to do dishes and make a simple breakfast, getting off FB except weekends, online school, etc)

 

The bad news is I think she and her DH are completely lacking in discipline and if they cannot even see the benefits of getting up early I'm not sure they'll change.

 

At this point I would report but I know on a practical level it may not do much good so I'm backing up to earlier in the thread, where someone suggested online school with outside accountability, plus maybe some of those tweaks.

 

There's a weird dynamic here too, but I can't put my finger on it. Maybe one of them has  executive function deficits and the other is too acquiescent? 

[kiana]

I seriously wonder if I'm reading the same thread as other people. 

 

I certainly wouldn't report the mother for educational neglect if she either started teaching the kids math or hired someone to do it. If strong words from a friend got her to get her act together, I'd be delighted. I'd certainly give it a month with encouragement to see if she can do it. 

 

But if she didn't, and continued to just drift along doing nothing but play on the internet and feed the kids, when they can scrape the mold off the plates, yes. Yes I would report that. 

 

Honestly I bet she's afraid to send the kids to school now because of how far behind they are.

 

A kid deserves to be able to leave home with more than a first-grade math education and he is not on a track that will lead him to any more than that. 

[texasmama]

The weird dynamic to me is that there are two people who are both irresponsible and willing to completely abdicate basic responsibilities for the children. There are no responsible adults in the home.

[Sdel]

Hmm....sounds like my schedule, minus the facebook and I get the day moving by 8 usually.  I can still find time to school between 11 and 3 pm. 

 

So, no excuses.  Just laziness and selfishness.  Although, it does sound like mental illness could still be at play.  Sounds a lot like my DIL and stepson actually.....and they are both mentally ill, her severely.

 

Stefanie

[Heatherwith4]

Having read your latest update, I really think they need to be reported.

[Chelli]

The weird dynamic to me is that there are two people who are both irresponsible and willing to completely abdicate basic responsibilities for the children. There are no responsible adults in the home.

 

You hit the nail on the head.  :smash:

 

But how can you make two people in their early 30's grow up and act like adults?!?!  :cursing:

[ondreeuh]

Oh man. That is some serious dysfunction. She may not even be able to SEE how dysfunctional it is since it has been going on for so long.

 

Those kids deserve better. It doesn't sound like she spends much time with them - even seems like she is avoiding them. And she is bringing another baby into that situation - very sad. The dirty house & lack of routine wouldn't bother me as much if the kids went to school and had SOMEONE teaching them not just academics but responsibility. But they are getting no model at all, and I fear that they are doomed.

 

This honestly sounds like a substance abuse problem. I mean, if she was using drugs or getting drunk after the kids were in bed that would account for her lack of productivity at night and feeling like crap the next day.

 

I wonder how honest she is being. What if it's far worse than she's describing (kids don't have beds or clean clothes, no working toilets, mice running freely through the house)?

[texasmama]

I would involve your dh at this point. I assume he has a relationship with her husband. This is a church or denominational oversight matter, as well. That is a benefit of denominational oversight. People can get guidance, mentoring and help. And a kick in the pants and expectations and deadlines, too.

[texasmama]

Who is watching the two year old while they sleep late and she lies in bed looking at Facebook? While they are outside?

 

Why have quiet time? That is just another chance for mom to feed her Internet addiction.

 

These people need an intervention.

[idnib]

This honestly sounds like a substance abuse problem. I mean, if she was using drugs or getting drunk after the kids were in bed that would account for her lack of productivity at night and feeling like crap the next day.

 

I was talking with my DH about the situation he said it sounded like both of them have a media addiction.

[Barb_]

I would involve your dh at this point. I assume he has a relationship with her husband. This is a church or denominational oversight matter, as well. That is a benefit of denominational oversight. People can get guidance, mentoring and help. And a kick in the pants and expectations and deadlines, too.

I think this is a great idea. This goes beyond the fact that the mom can't get her act together. The entire family is complicit in the problem and the entire family should be involved in the solution, I think.

[Heatherwith4]

I would involve your dh at this point. I assume he has a relationship with her husband. This is a church or denominational oversight matter, as well. That is a benefit of denominational oversight. People can get guidance, mentoring and help. And a kick in the pants and expectations and deadlines, too.

I think this is a good idea.

[MrsWeasley]

Not involved with a church, I would urge her to see her doctor. I don't know if she has a hormone imbalance, depression, ADHD... butshe obviously has an underlying medical problem.

[Tsuga]

Okay. So, I am approaching this from a humanist perspective, and yes on the side of the children. Not thinking, "That's not so bad" but instead, "This is too serious to screw up."

 

Second of all, I will admit that to me, the fact that a pastor and his blah-blah wife are hypocrites isn't angering to me. I am dealing with hypocrites in my own life so honestly, this is just like, "Wow, being a Christian and blabbing on about how awesome god is didn't save you from screwing up your kids? What a shocker." So, whatevs. They're hypocrites. Moving on to the real issues.

 

I still would not report, mainly because she has just confessed a LOT to you. And in spite of my not being a Christian, I still do believe in forgiveness and personal change. So she has really given you a HUGE, HUGE responsibility of trust here. I have no pity for her. I do have pity for her kids. But the fact is, we are all humans, and so while I judge her actions I'm not going to judge her potential for change.

 

I wonder if she was crying while she wrote that--seriously, it may have been hard to get out. So what to do?

 

Right now, you have the potential to be a huge person in her life. She would need to really lean on you.

 

1. Thank her for trusting you. Acknowledge that it's difficult to talk about stuff like this.

 

2. Be frank: "I know you have a lot on your plates with the mentoring, but to be completely and totally frank, I didn't realize it was that bad."

 

3. But then give her a way to accept this. "It sounds like your media work and the church are taking way more time from homeschooling than I thought." A spoonful of sugar...

 

4. Move on to personal responsibility: "This can't stay like it is--the kids need more educational structure."

 

5. Back to the sugar: "Your family has reached out to me and I want to stand by you." Let her know that you intend to stand by their family (family, not her, remains the loyalty though no need to put a fine point on it) until they can get a routine that is getting these kids the education they need to have careers like their parents have.

 

6. So--what can we do? Give options:

 

• Is your schedule something you can see changing? Thinking about your own health--the kids unsupervised for a couple of hours, and then the baby, are you willing to change this? She will probably say yes. They must be exhausted and frustrated.
• Okay, but changing your schedule on your own is super, super hard especially with a baby. So let's talk about getting you some support. Unfortunately, with a baby on the way, she can't take a sleeping pill at night. However, making an oath as a couple before god to at least turn off Facebook and the Internet and keep electronics out of the bedroom is something I'd seriously encourage her to do. When I was religious I couldn't break oaths. I'd suggest this as a serious measure. Swear before god, electronics are no longer coming in the bedroom. If parishoners call on the phone, move that to a landline, charge the church and say, pastor's wife and him are no longer keeping smartphones in the bedroom. This is totally understandable and justifiable and not at all a shameful course of action because everyone in our society faces this. She might not be able to sleep early for a month, but she should try only reading the Bible and keeping lights low.
• The amount of time this woman spends on dishes is ridiculous. I get it, she feels compelled to cook. It gets crazy. I get it. She needs paper plates. At this point, I'm ready to drive out to Texas myself and do it. In concrete terms, buying her a huge-ass thing of paper plates and plastic cutlery (AND I BELONG TO THE SIERRA CLUB) "for when the baby comes, starting now and ending whenever you have spare time". Just eliminate that from her list of things to do. That is actually something that is preventing her from moving on. Kids just toss the damn stuff, end of story.
• Finally, she will have a bit of time for school. Two things--no electronics in the bedroom, bedtime at 11 p.m. for mom and dad, and paper plates with pre-prepared food ("just for this rough patch when you're going to have your sixth kid or something")--and you have a ton more time for school.
• So now you do two things every day until June: reading from Bible stories (put a verse on the wall about teaching a child the ways of the lord) and math. Kids are butts at the table for one hour of math. Empathize. There will be tears. Sometimes people shout. Suggest that if it isn't working to go online or hire a tutor.
• Finally--honey, you have two jobs (homeschool teacher and medialite) and you're about to have a baby. Time to get a housecleaning service once a week. Tip them well.

 

She can do that. If she did that for three months, I would not call anyone in to have the kids in public school. She's gonna have a baby though, so it will be hard. I wouldn't bring it up yet.

 

If after a month she hasn't started, different story.

 

ETA--I think people are right about Internet addiction. It's worth bringing this up. What is more important to god, your internet presence and preparation for the day or just sitting there with the kids? I think she needs concrete, actionable ways to change, hence the list. But cutting out facebook (did I mention I got off FB for this very reason?) is a good idea.

 

Good luck. You have taken a lot on.

[Lisa R.]

Not involved with a church, I would urge her to see her doctor. I don't know if she has a hormone imbalance, depression, ADHD... butshe obviously has an underlying medical problem.

 

Really? Perhaps she's just lazy. Really lazy and irresponsible. I'm not sure I'd be so quick to excuse this with a medical condition. Lots of people have the problems you mention in your post and lead responsible lives.

[Lisa R.]

Okay. So, I am approaching this from a humanist perspective, and yes on the side of the children. Not thinking, "That's not so bad" but instead, "This is too serious to screw up."

 

Second of all, I will admit that to me, the fact that a pastor and his blah-blah wife are hypocrites isn't angering to me. I am dealing with hypocrites in my own life so honestly, this is just like, "Wow, being a Christian and blabbing on about how awesome god is didn't save you from screwing up your kids? What a shocker." So, whatevs. They're hypocrites. Moving on to the real issues.

 

I still would not report, mainly because she has just confessed a LOT to you. And in spite of my not being a Christian, I still do believe in forgiveness and personal change. So she has really given you a HUGE, HUGE responsibility of trust here. I have no pity for her. I do have pity for her kids. But the fact is, we are all humans, and so while I judge her actions I'm not going to judge her potential for change.

 

 

Chelli,

 

This was too long to quote. But please do everything this poster says. Feel free to use her exact wording, too. 

[Ausmumof3]

It sounds like she has a screen addiction going on.

Also I don't understand why a ten year old and two eight year olds can't get themselves some cereal for breakfast but have to wait for mum to get up. My older kids do at times and they are eight and five.

 

I also wonder if fly lady might be helpful if she doesn't have something similar.

[Kiara.I]

It sounds like she has a screen addiction going on.

Also I don't understand why a ten year old and two eight year olds can't get themselves some cereal for breakfast but have to wait for mum to get up. My older kids do at times and they are eight and five.

 

I also wonder if fly lady might be helpful if she doesn't have something similar.

 

I expect they ARE feeding themselves, something.  Which might well be part of the "disaster" that happens in the morning.  If she made it a direct responsibility instead, that would work better.

 

It is frustrating.  There are SO MANY obvious ways to start making the changes--but she has to be willing to DO at least a couple of them.  I pray she will be.

[IsabelC]

Everything Binip said. Plus try to get her husband on board if possible. I'm sure he's busy but he must have some time when he could be contributing.

[morningcoffee]

I think I have read every post now....

 

Just wondering, years from now, whether someone will come back to the forum and ask whatever happened to Chelli's friend who didn't do any school with her kids for two years... you know, the one with the maggots and whose Grandma died?  :lol:

[happypamama]

If this woman can't even regularly get up and feed her children at a reasonable hour, how would she manage to get them ready and off to school every morning -- feeding them plus backpacks, collecting homework, dressing, brushing teeth, etc.? Plus, even if they managed to get themselves ready, or if her DH got them ready before he headed off to work, then she'd have a 2yo running around the house unattended, and that sounds even worse. At least the three older children can make sure the toddler doesn't escape outside and such.

 

The 10yo could be making a simple breakfast. Our family doesn't do cereal for breakfast, although it'd be an improvement if those kids are currently fending for themselves, so I understand that, but there is nothing to say my older children couldn't cook eggs or oatmeal. (They don't generally; I generally cook breakfast myself, but they could.).

 

There are homeschooling families who keep late hours, and that can be okay. Not every school day has to start early. If settling down in the afternoon for some work would be better for them, then that could work too. (I remember being pregnant. It took several hours for water and protein to hit my system enough for me to feel pretty functional. 8 or 9 start times weren't happening.). Her kids are young enough that they could get all of their work done in a few hours in the afternoon.

 

She could be giving them a list of things to start on before she gets up or while she's busy dealing with the littles. My older kids (who, granted, are not behind in basic skills) each have an index card of stuff that they can work on if it's not their time with me. At times, I've sent them to do their reading while I've taken care of little ones. Why can't this woman's big three start some reading? Pour yourself a bowl of cereal or make a bagel, and grab your current book.

[happypamama]

Also, suggest to her that she do one thing at night: decide what she's making for breakfast the next day and be sure the dish for it is clean or soaking.

 

The older kids can unload and load the dishwasher too, but she should get paper plates to use whenever she gets behind on dishes.

[Haiku]

Wow. It sounds like this mom isn't even interested in her kids and tries to distance herself from them as much as possible. It sounds like there is no way homeschooling could work for this family. Successful homeschoolers have to want to provide their kids an education and be willing to put in the hard work to do so. It sounds like this woman has neither desire nor ability. That's not something that's going to change because a friend 7 hours away sends a schedule and some supportive emails. Those poor kids.

 

ETA: I posted this from my phone while lying in bed. I check my email and FB in the morning while lying in bed. The difference is it's 7:08 and at 7:30 my butt will be out of bed and starting our day.

[Ausmumof3]

A good place to start would be grabbing that two hours quiet time and doing math and literacy then. At least the bare basics would get covered.

[Word Nerd]

I wonder if having her keep a time log of how many hours she is online or watching TV every day would help her face reality. Probably not.

[Luckymama]

Excuse me, but WTF? They both need to pull up their Big Person Pants and start acting like adults! What horrible stewards of their gifts (children, time, talent, money)!

 

So sad for those kids :(

[Word Nerd]

A good place to start would be grabbing that two hours quiet time and doing math and literacy then. At least the bare basics would get covered.

And honestly, why do they need more quiet time in the afternoon when they haven't done anything for most of the day?

[musicianmom]

And honestly, why do they need more quiet time in the afternoon when they haven't done anything for most of the day?

That's what I was thinking! By the time quiet time gets there, she hasn't spent any real time with her kids, so why does she need to send them away again?

 

I have problems with screens, and I stay up too late a lot. And I tend toward laziness. But this woman takes the cake. She needs Nanny 911 for herself and her husband.

 

I bet you anything she doesn't really want to have all these kids and homeschool, but her religion requires it. So this is how she copes with the conflict.

[8circles]

I'm coming back to this thread because I've literally been bothered about this situation and the "heartless" comments all night.

 

I relate to this woman more than you know. There was a time in my homeschooling life when I was her. At least in my mind I was - looking back it wasn't quite that bad (there was not mold or maggots) but it felt just as chaotic and out of control and I felt buried in a grave that I couldn't climb out of. It lasted for a couple of months, iirc. The difference was I recognized it and I changed things. As soon as I could, I registered my kids in virtual public school. I bought paper plates and used them without guilt. I refocused on my children intentionally and with purpose. My issues were NOT screen addiction but I was going through major upheaval and was not able to cope at that time. This doesn't happen without a major reason, she isn't lacking a schedule, she is lacking the drive and desire to actually do it. This is YEARS of not being able to do it. She is not able to correct this problem by herself - that isn't an insult it's reality. Thats why she needs people who will do something like call CPS, not because I'm heartless. Before nthis can be fixed these people need to realize that this is a HUGE problem, which it doesn't seem they do. If there is a better organization to call than CPS? Great! Call them instead! If it would be better to have the denomination/church handle it? Great! Call them instead! But Chelli, this is bigger than helping your friend get back on track. Please love her and her family enough to get them the help they need.

 

We are now back to well within normal but I still sometimes break out the paper plates and my kids are still in virtual school with no plans to stop.

 

And I won't post in this thread anymore.

[sunflowerlady]

Yeah, the quiet time jumped out at me. She says that is the only consistent thing. What happens during quiet time? I would try to have her grab that chuck of time for some homeschool things. Sounds like she gets plenty of quiet time late at night and early in the morning for herself already.

 

Yes to paper plates, cups and spoons/forks. Yes to paper napkins. Yes to cereal and then have kids clean up. Why is she cooking lunch? I have a friend who is a mom of many. For lunch, she grabs a loaf of bread, big jar of PB, big jar of jelly, and kids come through in a line. They grab bread on a napkin or paper plate, smear on PB and J and go sit down to eat. It runs quite smoothly.

 

 

[Soror]

Wow, amazing.

 

Quiet time jumps out at me too, she needs to give that up and get to schooling, Math and Reading would be a good start. It is the only time she has organized in her day, she wouldn't need to make some big change to make it happen. Instead of sending them to quiet time she has them school. Heck to start with she could just do the oldest and then add them on one at a time. She needs to be figuring out what is going on with him anyway, a 10yo using Alpha level is a huge red flag, she needs to figure out if that is just because she hasn't taught him, in which case he should catch up relatively quick with consistency OR if he needs some sort of evaluation.

 

Ditto to paper plates and quick food, a homecook meal ought to be one of the last priorities right now.

[TammyS]

And where do the kids fit in while we throw a pity party for the poor mother and applaud her for possibly realizing the obvious?

 

The kids are the ones who will be most hurt by being thrown to the government.  The kids are the ones who will live with the stress in their home being ratcheted up to the max.  The kids are the ones who will live with the shame, for long after that CPS worker disappears (possibly having done nothing of substance, as many seem to think), for having a family that needs to be investigated.  The kids are the ones who may be forced into public school, where they will be placed in special ed and probably forever labeled, with all the limitations that comes with.  The kids are the ones who will live in the family that will be forever labeled by those who know them (and many who do not if the community is small) as having CPS intervene in their family and having the kids taken out of the home and placed into school.  The kids are the ones who will suffer.

 

No one is throwing the mother a pity party.  But many of us are saying that it is a far, far better thing, for the kids, if she can get it together without government interference.  Because there are things that are way worse than being behind in math.

[Rivka]

Honestly, it sounds like she has no interest in spending time with her kids or interacting with them. There is no moment in her description of the day when she says anything like "the two-year-old comes and cuddles with me in bed" or "we play Go Fish" or even "we all snuggle on the couch and watch a show together." It's all about pushing the kids away and dealing with them as minimally as possible.

 

The other thing that occurs to me is that there is a weird amount of "time bleed" in her sample day. Did anyone notice that, according to her account, she spends about six hours a day on meal prep? She gets out of bed at 9 and they eat at 11. She starts lunch prep at 12 and they eat at 1:30... on a good day. She realizes dinner prep needs to start when her husband comes home at 6, and they eat at 8:30 or 9. How can she spend that much time in the kitchen and still have it be squalorous? I think she's hiding out in the kitchen as an excuse to be away from her kids. She's probably spending most of that time in the kitchen on her phone.

 

I don't think this is a problem that can be solved by paper plates or a housecleaner or a more open-and-go curriculum.

[musicianmom]

I read it as she's not doing dishes after dinner, so she wakes up at 9 to a massive mess in the kitchen that she has to clean up before cooking breakfast. Plus she's probably checking her phone every 5 minutes.

[TammyS]

You hit the nail on the head.  :smash:

 

But how can you make two people in their early 30's grow up and act like adults?!?!  :cursing:

 

You can't make them grow up.

 

You can give them the opportunity to grow up, if they wish to.

 

I think you do need to have that blunt conversation with her.  She needs a schedule (though I disagree with getting up too early, I think that's going to be too much change too soon for her).  But if she gets up at 9am and gets going, then she can school successfully.

 

I would suggest that she:

 

1. Absolutely no computer (or device) may be turned on until she has completed set tasks (breakfast, laundry, math, english...at a minimum).

2. If she wants to sleep until 9 and the kids get up at 7, they are perfectly capable of getting themselves breakfast (even if they have to do cold cereal for a while as she gets her act together).

3. If you are willing, she could call/text you each day after she has completed her set tasks but before she turns on any devices.

4. After lunch, another set of tasks to complete (clean kitchen, make dinner, more schoolwork) and again all devices remain off until she gets them done.

 

I would also talk to her about simplifying some things (there is no reason that she should spend time making a cooked breakfast while her house is in disarray) and letting go of all or nothing thinking.  She said in the upthread email that it was "5 or 6 and no point in starting schoolwork", but that's actually not true.  If she did schoolwork from 6-8 with these kids consistently, she could get a lot done.  But I get the feeling that she's stuck in "all or nothing, school should be in the morning" thinking.  I believe it is better to do school in the morning, too, but WAY better to do it in the evening than not at all.

 

Anyway, IF you want to be involved with her, this is the sort of thing I would focus on.  If she seems resistant, I wouldn't be above hinting that I might out her online and ruin her "homeschool authority"  persona. 

 

[Soror]

I had a mom in a somewhat similar situation, although not nearly this severe, she realized that she wasn't really educating the kids like she should and she either had to figure out how to make it work or put them in school. TBH I did gently broach the subject that she said if she didn't get it together by X then she would need to do something else. It was so hard for her at first but then it was such a great relief, she could stop holding onto the guilt and shame. She ended up hiring a tutor to help with accountability and to assess where they were at and get them caught up. In the end she realized that couldn't continue schooling and I believe she really didn't want to, so she put them in school. I know another set of kids that were behind and they also hired a tutor for them, they were tutored through the spring and summer and then put them into school. The tutoring helped them not be so far behind and also got them more acclimated to a regular schedule.

 

I think it seems obvious that there life needs an entire overhaul but that is not likely to be helpful, she has a big hole to crawl out of and the idea of starting all of that now would be incredibly daunting, especially while pregnant. To me I would look at it like this, she has until August (or whenever school starts there) to either get back on track with homeschooling or put them in public/private school. I would reclaim that quiet time as mentioned previously first off and also look into a housekeeper and/or tutor.

 

She is going to have to start interacting with her kids to make that happen however and it seems her day is revolved around trying to avoid them. Maybe she has just got in a bad pattern of behavior or maybe it is long term depression but it is has to change. I think I would be blunt asking her when she does spend time with them? Does she feel that this is a good family life? Does she want it to continue? She has to take the first step.

[unsinkable]

I know Chelli is adding info as she gets it...but it makes me feel all:

 

:willy_nilly:

 

There seems to be so much distance between her and her children. It makes me wonder if this mom's own mother was absent, physically or emotionally or bc of addiction, from her during her childhood and the mom is playing it out bc that is what she's learned and knows.

 

It's a huge problem, no doubt.

[TammyS]

I think she needs an accountability partner, and it probably has to be someone local.

 

I think bringing in a 3rd, local, person is a great idea if you can find one (someone trustworthy, compassionate, and firm, all at the same time).  If that person would be willing to go over and visit her 1x per week, it might also motivate her with the housekeeping.

[TammyS]

. To me I would look at it like this, she has until August (or whenever school starts there) to either get back on track with homeschooling or put them in public/private school.

 

This is something worth mentioning to her.  If she wants, she could see the next  months as a "catch up" period for the kids, and knuckle down hard, knowing that it's for a short period of time.  In August she could then decide if she could realistically continue homeschooling, or whether she wanted to put the kids in school, having caught them up to grade level.

 

This may or may not work for her.  Some people will really respond favorably to a short period of hard catching up, some will be overwhelmed by it.  So you have to make sure that you're both honest with each other.

[albeto.]

Wow, Chelli. This is a tough one. No math curriculum is going to address what she really needs. If you step in too strong, you'll lose her.

 

I would suggest considering treading lightly here. Maybe ask her how she feels about this scenario she's described. What does she think about it. What would she like differently. I would maybe ask her casually if she thinks she might have an addiction to the internet. I would not suggest she does, I would simply plant the seed and let it grow under someone else's care (only because you're not close, you can't coincidentally bump into her or find excuses to get together if she ignores your emails).

 

I would then find someone in her church who can gently, without the appearance of shaming or blaming, find some people who can take her in under their wings.

 

Here are my thoughts on the matter, which may be completely irrelevant.

 

I think addictions are symptoms of poorly executed stress management.

I think not all stress is externally caused (some people are just wired a little tighter than others).

I think if she has a place or person where she can go to unload some of that stress without fear of being blamed, shamed or corrected, she may find hiding on the internet all day is no longer necessary.

I think if her stress is internally caused, the right medical prescription may prove to be invaluable.

I think her husband is a piece of work, and I wonder how much he contributes to her stress (that's all I'm gonna say about him right now).

I think if she feels speaking with a therapist about this is an admission to failure, or would be social suicide, she should be introduced to private, professional online therapy (the irony would ideally work itself out when the therapist works with her anxiety over working with someone locally).

I think calling CPS would cause more trouble than it's worth because she'll stall long enough to show proof of education (she's got MUS and other legitimate school work in the house, she knows how to talk the talk, she'll find learning disabilities or break for baby as some reason to explain the slower progress). Meanwhile, her stress will increase, her kids will be scared of being removed, and who knows what the hell her husband does to contribute to this circus, but if outside authorities are brought in over this (not immediate danger, but really crappy parenting), who knows how high he'll ratchet up his own contribution. Also, I think a local group of concerned friends and professionals can do more than a CPS worker coming in and checking off boxes to see if certain standards are met. Sadly, this isn't an uncommon situation for children to grow up in, and CPS will certainly recognize the difference between crappy parenting and dangerous environments. Just to say, ultimately I can't imagine what CPS could do, and I think the stress and embarrassment would do more harm to the children than keeping them out of it. I am not familiar with what all CPS handles or what they can provide, so there's that.

I think if you don't know enough people in her church, then call the church office and ask for whoever would be the ideal representative for helping a member out. Then go ask that person if they can help you compile a small group of homeschoolers in the congregation to help one of their own. I would try and keep it as private as possible.

 

 

Well... wow. Good luck Chelli. You're a nice person, to be sure. Whatever you decide to do, I suspect you'll do it with courtesy and respect.

 

 

[Soror]

This is something worth mentioning to her.  If she wants, she could see the next  months as a "catch up" period for the kids, and knuckle down hard, knowing that it's for a short period of time.  In August she could then decide if she could realistically continue homeschooling, or whether she wanted to put the kids in school, having caught them up to grade level.

 

This may or may not work for her.  Some people will really respond favorably to a short period of hard catching up, some will be overwhelmed by it.  So you have to make sure that you're both honest with each other.

Of course the thought of caught up at all is hard but I think 5 months to get caught up is less daunting than the idea that it needs to all be fixed by next week. I would frame it that way, yes this isn't working but you don't have to fix it all at once. Yes, it would be good if she got herself together tomorrow but you have to go with realistic.