Is hating math just a fact of life for most kids?

[Shellydon]

Oy.  I am so tired of the whining,dragging of feet and general fit throwing over math.   All of my kids just hate it.  All of them are pretty good at it, it just takes time to get the work completed. The 2nd grader has been working on 8 problems for 2 hours now.  She's had a couple of breaks, but is still sighing, stomping feet and moving at the pace of a snail.  The 5th grader lays on the floor and cries and carries on.  The 7th grader is upstairs steaming mad about having to math at all.  They zip through all their other work, but math is like torture. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

One of mine likes it most of the time.  The other is "meh" about it.  I think they sometimes hate it because it requires effort. 

 

 

[Shellydon]

One of mine likes it most of the time.  The other is "meh" about it.  I think they sometimes hate it because it requires effort. 

 

You're probably right.  Everything else is pretty easy for them, even when I push their school up a grade level or two.  Math takes time and effort to work through the problems.

[Carol in Cal.]

Part of it is because it is so massive.

Part of it is because we stick kids in arithmetic for at least 7 years before they get to actual math.  That's like spending 7 years learning the alphabet and phonics, and deciding that you hate literature at about age 9.  I don't know what the solution is, but I HAVE taken to telling kids not to decide whether they love or hate math until they get to algebra or geometry.

[Arcadia]

  I think they sometimes hate it because it requires effort. 

:iagree:

They whine because effort is required.  My boys also whine for german grammar and for writing :lol:

 

ETA:

My older says "there is a dancing bacon emoticon?!"  :)

 

Whining is not hating though.  Even adults whine about work sometimes but most don't hate it.  I loathe the memorization part of history and biology but I enjoy both subjects none the less.

[JenneinCA]

I think it is because math is very output based. There isn't much input and there is a lot of output. For other subjects you can spend a lot of time on input, reading or watching videos or having someone else read to you about science or history or literature and only a fraction of time on output. Math is different.

[kiana]

Yep. It's also easy for kids to decide "everything else is so easy and I have to work at math, so I suck at math and I hate math".

 

It's also *really* easy for a kid to see their older sibling complaining about math and join in.

[regentrude]

Not necessarily. But if the math materials they use are written by somebody who does not enjoy math, and if they are taught by somebody who is not excited about math, attitudes rub off. I wonder whether general attitudes about math were different if the grownups were as excited about math as they are about reading to the kids... that would surely go a long way.

There have been studies about math phobic elementary teachers and how easily those subconscious attitudes are absorbed by kids, especially girls. Imagine having a reading phobic teacher who had the attitude "I was never good at reading"...

And much of the math curricula out there are just awfully boring and uninsipred.

 

FWIW, both my kids enjoy math, and both DH and I really really love math.

[hornblower]

both of my kids like it & pretty much always have, but then I looked hard to make it interesting & not drudgery.  I think drill & kill is a big problem in mathematics instruction, both in ps & homeschool. And honestly, for a long time in elementary it's just tedious arithmetic. Second verse, same as the first (just add more digits..)

I still go back to Gatto "It only takes about 50 contact hours to transmit basic literacy and math skills well enough that kids can be self-teachers from then on."  

& not enough people are exposed to things like Vi Hart

and Numberphile

 

[Farrar]

Most of the homeschooled kids we know don't hate math. Neither of mine do. One of the lives it. The other is sort of meh on math - sometimes he likes it, sometimes he doesn't, though he doesn't hate it.

[Luckymama]

Nope, at least not in our family.

[73349]

I don't think so. It's one thing not to love it--that's probably normal for any subject. Hating is different, though. If I had kids writhing on the floor, I would revisit the curriculum choice and how I was presenting it.

[Carol in Cal.]

One thing I did that sounds stupid but it did help was start calling it a bunch of different subjects.

 

So, for instance, when we were doing Saxon, there was 'verbal math' and 'mental math' and 'math lesson time' and 'math worksheet' and 'math speed worksheet'.  As opposed to 'math'.  In retrospect I should have called these arithmetic until we got to algebra.  But anyway, when I called it all 'math' as in 'It's time to do math now', it was just plain overwhelming.  1-2 hours of drudgery ahead!  Whereas when I broke it up, there were more boxes to check off and preen over, and no single thing was overwhelming in and of itself.

 

I did the same thing with language arts.  Learning reading, grammar, copywork, composition, editing, spelling, being read to, talking about books, etc. were each separate things. 

 

This helped tremendously.

[AimeeM]

Not necessarily. But if the math materials they use are written by somebody who does not enjoy math, and if they are taught by somebody who is not excited about math, attitudes rub off. I wonder whether general attitudes about math were different if the grownups were as excited about math as they are about reading to the kids... that would surely go a long way.

There have been studies about math phobic elementary teachers and how easily those subconscious attitudes are absorbed by kids, especially girls. Imagine having a reading phobic teacher who had the attitude "I was never good at reading"...

And much of the math curricula out there are just awfully boring and uninsipred.

 

FWIW, both my kids enjoy math, and both DH and I really really love math.

What she said.

My daughter hated math when we used Saxon. I mean, she cried at the sight of that book - it sucked any enjoyment of math right out of her.

I also agree with another poster that part of it is, imo, spending SO MANY YEARS going over and over essentially the same things. This year, even though I know there are gaps due to DD's year in brick and mortar last year, I moved DD into Algebra 1; as we see gaps, we drop it for the day and fill the gap - but it allows her to move past the tedious arithmetic, dive into something more interesting, and still fill in gaps as needed.

 

My daughter is good at math, but doesn't *love* it (she used to, so maybe we'll get back to that - I hope).

My five year old son hates anything that requires writing (low muscle tone and some serious difficulties with handwriting), so I write his work for him or we do like we did today - working with manipulatives instead of within his curriculum. He *loves* numbers and thoroughly enjoys working with them. 

[Rosie_0801]

Dd has dyscalculia and we frequently have "incidents" over maths because she'd rather stare out the window than think, and it's the topic she's measurably worst at thinking about.

 

But overall, she still thinks she likes maths. Thankfully there are things I can do with her that aren't all arithmetic, or we'd be in perpetual mathematical misery.

[Garga]

Have you tried a different curriculum? Do you sit next to the 8 year old and work on the problems together on a white board?

 

I moved one boy from Horizon's math to MUS and it was like a little switch went off. Math was still work, but not hated.

 

I moved the second boy from MUS to CLE and it was like a little switch went off. Math was still work, but not hated.

 

You probably need a new curriculum. And it might not be the same curric for each kid. Mine do two different currics.

[kiwik]

If a fifth grader is lying on the floor and carrying on you have a problem. If he isn't doing it with other things the problem is probably with the maths (not discipline or the child unless you suspect a maths specific learning problem).

 

What maths are the doing and at what level?

[SparklyUnicorn]

Attitude definitely makes a difference.  With my "meh" kid I play a lot of games.  That helps. 

[IsabelC]

I don't think it's a fact of life for all, or even most, kids. I think a lot of 'math hate' comes from either learning to dislike it from peers (often in schools), boring/bad presentation (from curricula and school pedagogy), and lack of teacher enthusiasm (school teacher and/or parent treating math like vaccinations "I know you're gonna hate this but it's good for you"). Since I became more enthusiastic I have had all of my kids start to enjoy it more. They don't enjoy it every day, but they have all been 'caught' doing math activities in their spare time, so they can't hate it that much!

[Hunter]

I think it is because math is very output based. There isn't much input and there is a lot of output. For other subjects you can spend a lot of time on input, reading or watching videos or having someone else read to you about science or history or literature and only a fraction of time on output. Math is different.

:iagree: and then this snowballs into all sorts of other things. Some that really don't have anything to do with math itself.

 

Hating math is like hating breathing. It's not really possible. But many kids do hate to be required to produce certain types of output for a variety of reasons. And if you call that output "math" then they might say they hate it.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I've had teachers growing up who have said, "Math is not their thing."  Nothing like talking it up.  OY!

 

I do not utter dislike for math ever.  I talk it up.  I get to know it.  It's actually pretty fun.  I've always liked puzzles.  It's like one puzzle after another. 

[regentrude]

Another unfortunate attitude kids will eventually encounter, and be influenced by, is the prevailing pride in being bad at math. While nobody would boast about being illiterate, it is quite common to hear people bragging how they are bad at math, how they never needed it, how math is unnecessary (and yes, I have encountered this attitude even on this board).  As long as that is prevailing and acceptable behaviour in society, it will affect how kids feel about their math abilities.

[KrissiK]

Mine aren't thrilled about math. But, it does require effort, as others have mentioned, and learning new things can be hard. My oldest is in 6th grade math, and he's smart, but decimals and percentages and keeping track of what process to do when.... That's tough!

[Shellydon]

Have you tried a different curriculum? Do you sit next to the 8 year old and work on the problems together on a white board?

 

I moved one boy from Horizon's math to MUS and it was like a little switch went off. Math was still work, but not hated.

 

I moved the second boy from MUS to CLE and it was like a little switch went off. Math was still work, but not hated.

 

You probably need a new curriculum. And it might not be the same curric for each kid. Mine do two different currics.

 

Oh yes, we've curriculum switched.  I am currently using 3 different programs among 4 children, including Math U See

[ScoutTN]

No, I don't think so. My kids are average math students but they don't dislike it. They do sometimes dislike the work, the effort. I did not have a strong math education and am not good at it, but I have worked hard from day 1 to be excited about it with my kids and to try to make it fun and interesting. We use Right Start (so far) and the hands-on and the games elements help.

[Shellydon]

If a fifth grader is lying on the floor and carrying on you have a problem. If he isn't doing it with other things the problem is probably with the maths (not discipline or the child unless you suspect a maths specific learning problem).

 

What maths are the doing and at what level?

 

Let's see--

 

Math U See for the K and 2nd

Math Mammoth for the 5th grader

Lial Pre Algebra for the 7th

 

 We've curriculum hopped and it made no difference.  They are all actually pretty good in math.  The K'er get a pass because he hates all things school right now because it interrupts his building projects.  :)

Dad has his Ph.D. in a math related field and is very enthusiastic about all things math, frequently getting them involved in math required for household projects and repairs.  

My kiddos just don't doing math.  Read a tough literature novel for and hour, no problem.  Do math for an hour, the end of the world is upon us!

[Arcadia]

 

Dad has his Ph.D. in a math related field and is very enthusiastic about all things math, frequently getting them involved in math required for household projects and repairs.  

My kiddos just don't doing math.  Read a tough literature novel for and hour, no problem.  Do math for an hour, the end of the world is upon us!

 

For 5th grade and under, won't sufficient math concepts be covered by "household projects and repairs" math? add, subtract, multiply, divide, area, volume are all covered as are word problems in verbal format (even though your husband can write down a problem for them).

 

Reading a tough literature novel was easy, doing literature analysis for an hour would be the meltdown inducer.

[Garga]

Let's see--

 

Math U See for the K and 2nd

Math Mammoth for the 5th grader

Lial Pre Algebra for the 7th

 

We've curriculum hopped and it made no difference. They are all actually pretty good in math. The K'er get a pass because he hates all things school right now because it interrupts his building projects. :)

Dad has his Ph.D. in a math related field and is very enthusiastic about all things math, frequently getting them involved in math required for household projects and repairs.

My kiddos just don't doing math. Read a tough literature novel for and hour, no problem. Do math for an hour, the end of the world is upon us!

Well, now that so many people have said they don't have kids who hate math, and you've switched currics, and they have a dad who loves math, what do you think is going on?

 

I don't enjoy doing much math because I get bored with it. I mean, I enjoy it for awhile just for the sake of figuring out a puzzle, but after a few minutes I realize I don't really care what the answer is. It'll just be some number, you know? But for a book, I care what happens next. It won't just be a random number. Something will *happen* and I wanna know what.

 

So, I can see how they'd love to listen to a complex story but feel bored about math. If you don't enjoy working the puzzle for itself, then math can be kinda boring. There's no prize at the end the way there is for a book. The big reveal shows that...it's a four! Ding, ding, ding! But...big whoop. Who cares that it's a four?

 

I also don't like crossword puzzles or sudoku or other puzzles. There's not enough payoff for me. I don't even like physical puzzles with all the little pieces. But I'd l live my life in front of a book or movie if I could. Maybe they're just not puzzle people.

[IsabelC]

Do they enjoy the applied math in the household projects with Dad?

As Jenne said, it could be the sheer level of 'output' that's a problem. Would you be able to incorporate more discussion, oral drill or problem solving, stories, and so on? I suspect that we (parents or teachers) tend to feel more constrained by the curriculum/program with math than with 'softer' subjects, yet there isn't really any reason we can't jazz it up more. How about reading a picture book about a famous mathematical discovery, then dressing up and acting it out? Writing numerals on everybody's hand, doing the same on a big sheet of paper, and playing Ten Bond Twister? Watching math related movies (there are lots, although most not suitable for younger kids)? Learning arithmetic 'magic' tricks? Obviously doing that kind of thing every day won't be enough, but at least having a bigger variety of activities would be an improvement on the prospect of 12 years (or more) of daily written problems. (I hadn't fully realized how bleak this prospect seemed until when my Mr. 11 asked whether there was a "Computer of Doom" somewhere, with an infinite amount of MM pages!) 

[regentrude]

I don't enjoy doing much math because I get bored with it. I mean, I enjoy it for awhile just for the sake of figuring out a puzzle, but after a few minutes I realize I don't really care what the answer is. It'll just be some number, you know? But for a book, I care what happens next. It won't just be a random number. Something will *happen* and I wanna know what.

 

So, I can see how they'd love to listen to a complex story but feel bored about math. If you don't enjoy working the puzzle for itself, then math can be kinda boring. There's no prize at the end the way there is for a book. The big reveal shows that...it's a four! Ding, ding, ding! But...big whoop. Who cares that it's a four?

 

But for real math, you won't just get a number as a result. You may get a beautiful function that may have cool properties and special behavior... like a character in a novel. Or you may come to an interesting conclusion that has an elegant proof which is equivalent to a beautifully written story.

In math, something will happen as well... the complicated expression may simplify in surprising ways, or you find out something about the behavior of your complex character...eh...function...or it turns out that something you had suspected (like you might suspect the butler to be the murderer in a detective novel) is actually correct...

 

Forget about arithmetic. That's not really math

[Doodlebug]

Sheldon,

 

My kid hates math, too.  

 

Just empathizing... I often find myself questioning 1). Is it the teacher?  2).  Is it the curriculum?  3). Is it the kid?

 

It's anyone's guess as to which answer it may be because the behavioral manifestation is the same.  So, I keep cycling through, trying to figure it out.  It's maddening... 

 

I did have a breakthrough recently when I realized DS has the same crazy reaction to piano... in other words, redundant tasks that result in right or wrong.  No "A" for effort -- a wrong note is clearly heard as a wrong note no matter how much I commend the effort.  Arithmetic is very much the same -- DS isn't interested in commendations for effort... he wants to be right and move on.  I keep encouraging... keep patting his back... keep looking for new approaches to the areas he struggles in...      

 

It's not easy.    

 

 

[Garga]

But for real math, you won't just get a number as a result. You may get a beautiful function that may have cool properties and special behavior... like a character in a novel. Or you may come to an interesting conclusion that has an elegant proof which is equivalent to a beautifully written story.

In math, something will happen as well... the complicated expression may simplify in surprising ways, or you find out something about the behavior of your complex character...eh...function...or it turns out that something you had suspected (like you might suspect the butler to be the murderer in a detective novel) is actually correct...

 

Forget about arithmetic. That's not really math

Yes, true. I guess I never got to that level of math, or if I did, I didn't realize it. I had alg 1 and 2 and geometry. I don't remember it being anything than having to solve problem after problem. If nothing else was going on I might enjoy the puzzle for itself, but I wore bore quickly.

 

It's still not the same as finding out who the killer was or how Harry fought Voldemort or how someone fell in love, to me. I understand the love others have of math, but I don't love it. I don't hate it, but I don't love it.

 

Sounds like the OP's kids don't feel the love for math. It is a sad shame that they hate it. And you're also right that they're just doing arithmatic so they haven't had a chance to see the things you're discussing yet.

 

Wish we could help you, OP!

 

Have you sat next to each child one-on-one during math and made it a bonding time with each kid? I'd try that next if I were you. I'd use the whiteboard and work on the problems with them. Maybe I'd do every other problem for them for a few weeks. I'd do this to model how to do the problems, how to "show their work", and how to hunker down and get it down.

[Shellydon]

For 5th grade and under, won't sufficient math concepts be covered by "household projects and repairs" math? add, subtract, multiply, divide, area, volume are all covered as are word problems in verbal format (even though your husband can write down a problem for them).

 

 

 

No?  You can't memorize math facts by doing home repair.  The memorized math facts an help you do home repair though.

[Shellydon]

Well, now that so many people have said they don't have kids who hate math, and you've switched currics, and they have a dad who loves math, what do you think is going on?

 

I don't enjoy doing much math because I get bored with it. I mean, I enjoy it for awhile just for the sake of figuring out a puzzle, but after a few minutes I realize I don't really care what the answer is. It'll just be some number, you know? But for a book, I care what happens next. It won't just be a random number. Something will *happen* and I wanna know what.

 

So, I can see how they'd love to listen to a complex story but feel bored about math. If you don't enjoy working the puzzle for itself, then math can be kinda boring. There's no prize at the end the way there is for a book. The big reveal shows that...it's a four! Ding, ding, ding! But...big whoop. Who cares that it's a four?

 

I also don't like crossword puzzles or sudoku or other puzzles. There's not enough payoff for me. I don't even like physical puzzles with all the little pieces. But I'd l live my life in front of a book or movie if I could. Maybe they're just not puzzle people.

 

This makes so much sense to me. 

[Shellydon]

It is just exhausting.   Many of my homeschooling friends have said that math is why their kids end up in a regular school, and I totally get that.  It wears me out.  Just do the stupid problem and lets move one  already. 

[Hunter]

Arithmetic is gorgeous. I do NOT understand how people that like other types of math, cannot see the beauty of the Hindu-Arabic Decimal System. Algorythms are so minimalistic and logical. They are like perfectly crafted gems shining in sunlight.

 

I present phonics and arithmetic simultaneously as greatest feats of mankind. I ask the student if they think they are a discovery or a creation, and keep asking that question as we progress.

 

I do not ask a student to do math above their developmental level. I also usually hold back math to the student's literacy level. I don't ask them to do math above what they can read and write about. Arithmetic is pretty advanced stuff. Just because we want students to do algebra at increasingly younger ages, and need to do arithmetic first, doesn't mean students are READY for the arithmetic we are shoving down their throats.

 

I do not try to get students to engage in rigorous studies, unless they are capable of rigorous other types of work. Work ethic is easier taught with physical labor, chores, and care of younger siblings and animals. If a students doesn't know how to WORK, then it's pointless to ask them to WORK at academics. I merely play with students that are only accustomed to playing.

[Shellydon]

 

I do not ask a student to do math above their developmental level. I also usually hold back math to the student's literacy level. I don't ask them to do math above what they can read and write about. Arithmetic is pretty advanced stuff. Just because we want students to do algebra at increasingly younger ages, and need to do arithmetic first, doesn't mean students are READY for the arithmetic we are shoving down their throats.

 

I do not try to get students to engage in rigorous studies, unless they are capable of rigorous other types of work. Work ethic is easier taught with physical labor, chores, and care of younger siblings and animals. If a students doesn't know how to WORK, then it's pointless to ask them to WORK at academics. I merely play with students that are only accustomed to playing.

 

I agree with this.  My kids are hard workers.  Lots of chores around here.  Ability to make their own meals at age 6 and family meals at 10, care of livestock, pets and all that jazz.  None of this changes the fact that they hate math. ^_^

[IsabelC]

I do not ask a student to do math above their developmental level. I also usually hold back math to the student's literacy level. I don't ask them to do math above what they can read and write about. Arithmetic is pretty advanced stuff. Just because we want students to do algebra at increasingly younger ages, and need to do arithmetic first, doesn't mean students are READY for the arithmetic we are shoving down their throats.

 

I do not try to get students to engage in rigorous studies, unless they are capable of rigorous other types of work. Work ethic is easier taught with physical labor, chores, and care of younger siblings and animals. If a students doesn't know how to WORK, then it's pointless to ask them to WORK at academics. I merely play with students that are only accustomed to playing.

 

Are you able to explain further how this works in practice please?

Are you talking about a child-led/unschooling approach to numeracy? Or just starting later and moving faster with the curriculum? Or something else altogether?

Would you still 'hold back math to the student's literacy level' in the case of a child with a literacy-specific learning disability?

 

 

 

 

 

A few people have commented on how 'Real Math' is so much more fun and interesting than 'Only Arithmetic', but surely the arithmetic has to be gotten through somehow before kids can start on the higher stuff? 

 

Here is an anecdote I have probably shared on this forum before:

A friend of mine unschooled her son from the beginning through grade 6. When he enrolled to start school in 7th grade, the mother spoke to the school to find out what 'gaps' he might have that they could address during summer holidays before he began school. She was told that as long as he can read and write reasonably well and perform basic arithmetical operations, he'd be fine, because they don't assume any prior knowledge of content. Anyhow, she got him a textbook, he went over a bit each day, and he covered all of grade 1-6 math in under two months.

 

Granted, this particular kid was gifted to some degree, plus the mom is both highly intelligent and highly educated, so chances are he may have learned more than average while unschooling. But could the fact that this feat was possible suggest that the 'normal' progression makes getting the arithmetic down far more laborious and long-winded than it needs to be?

 

(Although, if the multitude of accounts of unschooled students going from illiterate to 500 page classics over a summer are to be believed, maybe elementary education in its entirety is unnecessarily laborious and long-winded.)

[Arcadia]

 

Granted, this particular kid was gifted to some degree, plus the mom is both highly intelligent and highly educated, so chances are he may have learned more than average while unschooling. But could the fact that this feat was possible suggest that the 'normal' progression makes getting the arithmetic down far more laborious and long-winded than it needs to be?

 

(Although, if the multitude of accounts of unschooled students going from illiterate to 500 page classics over a summer are to be believed, maybe elementary education in its entirety is unnecessarily laborious and long-winded.)

 

I would say this particular child has the drive to complete whatever gaps in two months. A lot of math can be covered in daily life without a curriculum. Just calculating goods and services tax (GST) would involve decimals and multiplication. 

Considering immigrants who are ESL that come to any country that use English as the medium of instruction and manage to catch up, sometimes when there is a will, there is a way.

 

Elementary education can be very long winded but a good teacher can inculcate in his/her students a love for "self-educating/enriching"

[Arcadia]

No?  You can't memorize math facts by doing home repair.  The memorized math facts an help you do home repair though.

 

Could you separate math facts drills from concepts? If they are stalled in their progress because of math facts, they might get frustrated.  Math fact drills can be done through games if they are tired of workbooks or worksheets.

[Pen]

It's gone up and down, sometimes top favorite subject, sometimes least favorite...

 

But not what you describe.

 

What programs are they working on that they hate so much?

 

Do they understand it? If they are doing either work that is too hard, or work that is too easy it can make it seem like torture, I think.

 

In second grade, btw, stars or other stickers were useful to motivate.

 

Written stars on correct problems and written notes are still helpful for 7th grade work.  You know, "100%" or "Great job!" sort of thing. If there were tantrums and no problem with the curriculum or placement, I'd probably give stars also for proper attitude.

[SageRebel]

We used Saxon at first. Made us both cry and I hated math to begin with and that made it worse!! Switching up programs to MM, and adding lacing math facts, and games in has made it fun. Also counting in the baking sessions we have, music, and farm projects. They will tinker with hands on math things by themselves and ask to play math focused games. The Dew is Meh most of the time. Its mainly having to sit still for worksheets, which I have really curbed down. They seem to be picking it up quickly. I am so happy to see more than memorization, they have a natural application. 

[go_go_gadget]

I read something once that said that most math curricula teach math in a way that would be similar to using tax code to teach reading, and I have to agree. Further, as others have said, people don't blink when someone says they hate math or are terrible at it, but saying the same about reading would raise eyebrows. In such a cultural environment, it's unsurprising that kids inherit the attitude. I'm not speaking of the OP's kids directly, of course; I wouldn't have any idea whether any of this applies in their situation.

[SeaConquest]

My son does not hate math, but I work really hard mix it up. Novelty seems to be key for him, especially since I keep the challenge level ratcheted up pretty high. 

 

We mix Singapore IP with the CWP (our spine), Life of Fred and lots of other living math books, Zaccaro's Primary Grade Challenge Math (he loves trying to do the "genius" problems), Borac's Competitive Mathematics for Gifted Students, logic and strategy games (Sleeping Queens, Zeus on the Loose, etc.), math videos, and iPad math apps. We also use lots of manipulatives when necessary. As soon as we finish up Singapore 2B, we will also mix in Beast Academy, and my son is already licking his chops at the comic book style of math.

 

And this isn't a kid that I would characterize as "mathy." Conceptually, he intuits math quickly, but there are a million other things he would rather be doing than math. We started homeschooling last year with Math Mammoth, and I quickly realized that there were far too many problems on the page and that the monotony of doing the same type of math day in and day out was killing his love of the subject. My advice is to try to mix things up and put the fun back in math.

 

 

 

[Hunter]

Are you able to explain further how this works in practice please?

Are you talking about a child-led/unschooling approach to numeracy? Or just starting later and moving faster with the curriculum? Or something else altogether?

Would you still 'hold back math to the student's literacy level' in the case of a child with a literacy-specific learning disability?

 

A few people have commented on how 'Real Math' is so much more fun and interesting than 'Only Arithmetic', but surely the arithmetic has to be gotten through somehow before kids can start on the higher stuff?

 

Here is an anecdote I have probably shared on this forum before:

A friend of mine unschooled her son from the beginning through grade 6. When he enrolled to start school in 7th grade, the mother spoke to the school to find out what 'gaps' he might have that they could address during summer holidays before he began school. She was told that as long as he can read and write reasonably well and perform basic arithmetical operations, he'd be fine, because they don't assume any prior knowledge of content. Anyhow, she got him a textbook, he went over a bit each day, and he covered all of grade 1-6 math in under two months.

 

Granted, this particular kid was gifted to some degree, plus the mom is both highly intelligent and highly educated, so chances are he may have learned more than average while unschooling. But could the fact that this feat was possible suggest that the 'normal' progression makes getting the arithmetic down far more laborious and long-winded than it needs to be?

 

(Although, if the multitude of accounts of unschooled students going from illiterate to 500 page classics over a summer are to be believed, maybe elementary education in its entirety is unnecessarily laborious and long-winded.)

I do not believe in the type of education where the cart is before the horse. It's not an efficient long-term plan. Whether learning disabled or gifted, when things are not lined up with developmental readiness, everything takes longer and is harder and chips away at a student's sense of worth and ability.

 

I tend to focus on what is efficent instruction, and the CURRENT needs and mental health of students. I do NOT tend to use the term student/child-led, because that doesn't really sum up my no-nonsense style of instruction. I just don't like wasting time and enrgy–mine or my students. And I teach the WHOLE student, body and soul, not just the mind. The brain is an organ that DEPENDS on a healthy body and soul, to be able function well and even to exist at all.

 

I'm not an expert. I just do some reading and observing and have latched onto some beliefs that work for ME. Students that WORK and move their BODIES a lot, and engage in spirituality, nature, and the arts, and get enough sleep and water, seem to make developmental gains faster. So, if a student is "behind", I focus on these things, instead of pushing.

 

Yes, I have seen the typical unschooling type stories, but in reality, allowing a student not to spend their entire education with the cart before the horse, sometimes means they are "behind" in one or more subjects.

 

In a society that believes that every person must be financially and otherwise independent and internationally competitive, it is debatable about whether students have the human right to be "behind". Many believe that no matter the toll it takes, if it's possible, a student must keep up. It's their societal obligation.

 

After years of having severe PTSD, and all that led up to developing it, I'm not sure if people have the right to exist that are not entirely independant and competitive. I struggle daily with my own right to exist. But there are people that have decided my students DO have the right to exist despite their many struggles and disabilities and lack of ability to pay taxes. I have decided that *I* am not going to educate in a way that doesn't focus on their CURRENT developmental levels and TOTAL health. I know that there are those that think there is no room in the world for me and my students, and that the only ones of us that have the right to exist are the ones working on everyone getting financially independent as soon as possible.

 

I really do not know what is "right" and "wrong" anymore. There are so many shaming voices in my head. But for right now, I'm pretending I believe in the idea of basic human rights and am treating my students like they have a right to learn at their developmental level and to have a whole body, soul and mind balanced education. And that means allowing them to be "behind", and sometimes sit next to an anthill watching the ants, instead of using every trick in the book to get their math skills beyond their literacy abilities.

[IsabelC]

Thanks for responding.

 

Students that WORK and move their BODIES a lot, and engage in spirituality, nature, and the arts, and get enough sleep and water, seem to make developmental gains faster. So, if a student is "behind", I focus on these things, instead of pushing.

 

 

That resonates a lot for me. People, including kids, are holistic beings so it makes sense to educate holistically.

 

I'm not going to comment about human rights in education (that's probably a topic for another thread) except to say that I am sorry for the difficulties you have had and are having.

[rdj2027]

My oldest hates math due to years of bad teachers and the ensuing lack of understanding.  #2 was okay with it, had two miserable years in middle school and strongly disliked it.  When we pulled him out of PS we changed tack and now he likes because he understands it and is beginning to see the beauty of some of it. #3 liked it in the beginning, began to hate it due to incompetent teachers.  When we pulled him out of 5th grade (where he was by now in remedial math) we switched him to AOPS and he began to find math interesting again.  He is now doing Pre-Algebra again in a co-op with a drill and kill program but a great teacher and a couple of good friends.  He is beginning to like it again because he now understands the concepts and his teacher is able to get him up to speed with basic arithmetic which let's him work through problems more efficiently.  Having received an A in his AOPS class and now receiving an A in his co-op class has changed his attitude tremendously.  I put him in classes so he could see that he is not the worst math student the world has ever seen and that other kids struggle with some of it as well.  He still does not love math but he does not hate it anymore nor does he think he can't do it.  My #4 says she hates math but I think she enjoys is.  She is good at it, it only takes about 45 minutes a day and I have begun to combine it with art and try to connect it to other subjects as well.  We are currently reading Asimov's "The Realm of Numbers" and it just hit her how marvelous the discovery of numbers and arithmetic really was.  Now numbers are not simply a thing anymore, they have a history and a life and she is able to connect that to her daily life.  She is also doing a lot of art and origami and is beginning to find math on her own just about everywhere which is something she gets excited about. 

[Shellydon]

Question for all of you that add lots of extra 'stuff' to your basic math program--- when I tried this, the kids revolted because if made math take even longer.  So rather than just getting through your number of pages for that day, now you had to talk about it, listen to stories, and do even more math, all of which they disliked.  After a few weeks, we just went back to doing a single program.  

 

 

To add-- DH is the math guy at home.  He has a B.S. in a science field and a M.S. and  Ph.D in Engineering and took every available math course in college.  He tutored and graded math all through college as well.  It is definitely his forte.    With my first, I would let her move on when I felt like she understood the concept.  When he started helping with her math about 2.5 years ago, he really felt like that was a huge mistake, so I don't do that any longer.  And honestly, in Math Mammoth and Math U See, it isn't *that* much if they would just buckle down and zip through the problems.  If motivated by going somewhere, my 2nd grader can finish in less than 20 minutes each day and get everything right.  Apparently it is more fun to sob about it most days though.

 

[Haiku]

No, I don't think so.

 

My dd12 loves math. She has moments when it gets her down, but overall she really enjoys it. She's extremely academic and loves a challenge.

 

My ds12 likes math (I wouldn't go so far as to say loves). He, also, has moments of frustration, but overall he likes what he's doing. He is not an academically minded kid and gets frustrated easily.

 

The key, for them, was finding curricula that worked for them. For dd this is currently Dolciani Pre-A and will soon be Foerster's Algebra 1 with Math Without Borders lectures. She likes a traditional textbook approach. For ds this is Teaching Textbooks. He thrives with the multi-media approach.

 

Are your kids all using the same math program? What are you using? Have you tried anything else? 

 

At one point, before I switched my son from Math Mammoth (which caused yelling, crying fits [mostly on his part, but sometimes on mine]) to TT, we took six weeks off of formal math and worked on a Math Grab-Bag that I created myself. I took various math resources that I had lying about the house, numbered them, and had my son draw a number each day. We then worked on the math activity that corresponded to them number. The drawn numbers were retired for the week so that we worked on a variety of materials. After six weeks of "playing with math," his confidence was restored and he was able to face a new math curriculum.

 

One thing that I, in all my wisdom, have learned is that math needn't be as hateful and scary as I sometimes see it portrayed by homeschoolers. There is a lot of talk and concern and angst about the right, hardest, most conceptual math program and fear that if you do it wrong, you will ruin your child. My dd20 (who came to us from an orphanage at 11 and was only homeschooled for one year) failed algebra in high school and only made it through algebra II (with a C) before graduating high school. She ended up with $34,000 in scholarships to a private liberal arts school and is majoring in biology. My sister and I both went to the same public school, where we had, by my estimate, a very average math education. I majored in social work, sweated my way through statistics, and went on to have a very fine life. My sister majored in zoology and ended up with a PhD in an science field; she uses some but not an extreme amount of math in her career. I say all this to illustrate that, in my opinion, the worry and stress that people place on math is somewhat unfounded. Find a program your kids like, even if it is not the "best" or "hardest," and make sure they learn the basics.

 

ETA: I see that your 5th grader is doing MM. 5th grade was the year we finally gave up on MM with my dd. I found the 5th grade year of MM to be odd and frustrating. Dd had loved MM up till then but started disliking it at that point.

[Haiku]

dp