What if your dh said...

[Ann.without.an.e]

I have a friend who has been struggling in her marriage.  Her DH is a really good person and she loves him, but he has been struggling with depression and apathy.  He continues to tell her something along these lines....

 

"I am committed to you, I will provide for you, I will be kind and respectful of you, but I am a hollow person.....life has thrown me so many disappointments and I have nothing else to give.  Just always know that it isn't your fault and trust me on that."

 

It is finally settling in on dear friend that this may be her new reality (because things aren't changing).  What should she do to get past the feeling that her current situation is somehow her fault?  What can she do on her part to protect her marriage as she begins to feel more and more resentment toward her dh's coldness?  Is it appropriate to build walls of protection or will that only make the situation worse?  What if her dh is always serious/depressed and his only therapy is to work....all.the.time (either at work or at home).  He is a hard worker and it is where he finds satisfaction.  She and the kids have been stuck at home and rarely have anything lighthearted or fun to do - should she start planning things without him or is that inappropriate?  What can she do to help herself and her children that won't make DH's problems worse?  This DH has been struggling for two years and the last 6 months have been even more difficult.    Also, how can I help her?

 

Her DH will not consider meds or therapy....period.  Not even for a second will he entertain that thought. 

 

 

[clementine]

If her husband won't go to therapy, she should go herself.  She needs to find ways to cope if she is going to be living like that.  

 

I can't imagine.  That's so terribly sad.  

[Guest]

"I am committed to you, I will provide for you, I will be kind and respectful of you, but I am a hollow person.....life has thrown me so many disappointments and I have nothing else to give. Just always know that it isn't your fault and trust me on that."

 

If my dh said this to me, I would tell him that I deserve to be loved and cherished, not merely tolerated kindly. My marriage is not a business arrangement where we have agreed to merge resources. If this were my own dh and I was not in a position to divorce, I would be planning my life toward an inevitable separation. I am not going to pour myself into someone who has told me he is not going to love me and that all he can scrabble up is basic decency.

 

Life has thrown me disappointments, too, but I am not going to withdraw love from those who DID NOT have a role in the disappointments, KWIM.

[Ann.without.an.e]

If my dh said this to me, I would tell him that I deserve to be loved and cherished, not merely tolerated kindly. My marriage is not a business arrangement where we have agreed to merge resources. If this were my own dh and I was not in a position to divorce, I would be planning my life toward an inevitable separation. I am not going to pour myself into someone who has told me he is not going to love me and that all he can scrabble up is basic decency.

 

Life has thrown me disappointments, too, but I am not going to withdraw love from those who DID NOT have a role in the disappointments, KWIM.

 

 

I know from conversation she is considering this.  This is one reason I wanted to ask here because I've wondered, in my heart, what really is the best thing to do?  She is not in the position to make any sort of move now but it might mean working on a college degree as her kids get a bit older and strategically planning ways to be more independent.  She does love him though, so in a way she wants to stay committed to him too.  Hard, huh?

[zoobie]

That's abandonment IMO. She needs therapy for herself to decide how to proceed.

[City Mouse]

Yes, she needs to plan fun things for her and the kids to do. He could be invited along, but they should go without him if he doesn't want to go. The rest of the family shouldn't put their lives on hold-especially if he is refusing any sort of medical help for amedical problem.

[Random]

 

 

 

"I am committed to you, I will provide for you, I will be kind and respectful of you, but I am a hollow person.....life has thrown me so many disappointments and I have nothing else to give.  Just always know that it isn't your fault and trust me on that."

 

 

That is so sad!  My heart breaks for this guy and his family.

 

This is what I think I would do, if I were in her situation, based on what you've said.

 

I would make an effort (even though it may never, ever be reciprocated) to do something extremely kind and loving for my husband once or twice a week (favorite meal, kind note in his lunch box, a text message, clean his car, put a fun app on his phone, whatever he might like).  I would continually show him that I'm not giving up on him.  I would settle it in my heart that I was going to do this, without any expectations.  I'd just do it to show him love.  Again, not expecting anything in return.

 

I would absolutely get a life outside of him, and not be 'stuck' at home with the children.  We'd do whatever we could do/could afford for our own mental health and sanity.

 

I would get myself into some sort of therapy or counseling.

 

I think that if I were in her situation, I'd want a friend I could vent to.  And a friend I could do fun things with.

[Melinda in VT]

Why are she and the kids stuck at home?

 

In her position, I would absolutely plan and do fun things with the kids. DH would have a standing invitation to join us, but I'd focus on living the life I want to live with my kids, whether he joins us or not.

[Annie G]

 

 

That is so sad!  My heart breaks for this guy and his family.

 

This is what I think I would do, if I were in her situation, based on what you've said.

 

I would make an effort (even though it may never, ever be reciprocated) to do something extremely kind and loving for my husband once or twice a week (favorite meal, kind note in his lunch box, a text message, clean his car, put a fun app on his phone, whatever he might like).  I would continually show him that I'm not giving up on him.  I would settle it in my heart that I was going to do this, without any expectations.  I'd just do it to show him love.  Again, not expecting anything in return.

 

I would absolutely get a life outside of him, and not be 'stuck' at home with the children.  We'd do whatever we could do/could afford for our own mental health and sanity.

 

I would get myself into some sort of therapy or counseling.

 

I think that if I were in her situation, I'd want a friend I could vent to.  And a friend I could do fun things with.

 

I really like this.   Love him unconditionally (and do things to make him know that!) while still making a life for her and the kids.  I would hope to be this gracious if I was the wife in this situation. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

Why are she and the kids stuck at home?

 

 

 

She makes no income and her DH spends zero money on himself.  She would feel extremely guilty doing anything without him, using money he'd earned, when he would never spend money on such things - not that everything has to cost money.  They also have some medical expenses that make their budget pretty tight.   It is complicated.

[Ann.without.an.e]

The husband won't get treatment for his depression ?

 

I agree that deliberately untreated issues constitute a kind of abandonment.

 

 

He doesn't buy the medical theory and he doesn't think medication is an answer.  He thinks it is spiritual and that it is out of his control...again, complicated to explain and I don't even quite fully understand the situation so I shouldn't venture to attempt it :/

[Guest]

I really like this. Love him unconditionally (and do things to make him know that!) while still making a life for her and the kids. I would hope to be this gracious if I was the wife in this situation.

I would only suggest this if the undevoted behavior from him was not very long-standing and/or there was a long history prior to his "funk" that demonstrates he is capable of loving her. I say this because I have seen a whole heck of a lot of instances in which the mate is bending over backwards, trying to get the non-lover to just see how very lovable they are. Most often, by the time the non-lover has said what the OP indicates, they are already exceedingly mentally divorced from the poor mate. Personally, I am not going to jump through a zillion hoops to try to convince the non-lover that he's got a good bargain in me. If he doesn't love me when I'm acting reasonably normal, but only "remembers" that he maybe loves me when I'm blowing his mind with good deeds, then I don't want him.

 

And I say that as a very traditional sort of wife, who does a lot for dh's benefit.

[jewellsmommy]

I know you said no therapy or meds, but is it possible that he would consider something less conventional. My dh has been doing bio-neuro feedback. It is a therapy, but not what you think of when you hear therapy, kwim? It has done the most amazing things for him. I thought it would be worth at least mentioning.

[sbgrace]

What a mess. And sad, because he would probably have a different outlook with treatment.

 

I have a (Christian) friend who demanded her husband seek treatment (medication) for depression or she and the kids would move in with her parents.

 

She meant it. Her husband got treatment. I don't know what I would do in that situation. If she can afford therapy, getting therapy for herself is probably a good idea. I feel sorry for your friend.

 

ETA: yes, she needs to build the best life she can for herself and her kids. Counseling might help her with that issue, too. She can frame it as bringing joy to her kids maybe.

 

 

[ktgrok]

That's abandonment IMO. She needs therapy for herself to decide how to proceed.

 

It is unhealthy and abandonment. What these kids see is how they will grow up to expect marriage to be. He needs to be told that he is messing up the kids lives by refusing to do what it takes to get better. Period. 

 

Honestly, I was in an eerily similar situation. I eventually left, because the emontional distance my ex had from my son was killing him slowly. Emotional neglect is neglect. 

[Hunter's Moon]

Whether she plans to stay or work towards an eventual separation, she needs to do things for herself and the children. Only by taking care of herself can she properly care for them.

 

I cannot even imagine what I would do. I wish your friend and her kids all the best.

[ktgrok]

Adding to what I said above, I can say that my son's behavior took a huge turn for the better once the initial dust settled after the separation. He was incredibly wounded by a father that couldn't or wouldn't do things with him, pay attention to him, etc. Not having his dad around was better than being rejected daily. And, my ex is a much better father part time than he ever was full time. He can pull the energy together to do stuff and pay attention two days every other week. All the time? No. 

 

We were in counseling for years. He kept not going, not doing it, etc. Stopping meds. Finally he said, in a counseling session, "things are never going to change. I'm never going to change. I'm fine with how I am." And he meant it. 

[happypamama]

Why are she and the kids stuck at home?

 

In her position, I would absolutely plan and do fun things with the kids. DH would have a standing invitation to join us, but I'd focus on living the life I want to live with my kids, whether he joins us or not.

Yes, this.

[NorthwestMom]

Basically, she needs therapy herself. Perhaps a commitment to attending Al-Anon meetings would help as well. Those are free and some have childcare. Those two things will help her focus on herself, what she needs and deserves, what she has control of, and what she can change. Encourage her to put her mental health needs, and those of her children, first. He will not.

 

When she's ready, she can declare an ultimatum, "You get a full medical checkup, agree to try anti-depressants if the doctor suggests it, and go to a therapist to try to work out your problems, or we will separate." Often, people with depression need to experience the beneficial effects of medication before they can access the beneficial effects of a good therapist. Encourage her to require he make an effort with his mental health. 

 

I sure would not be encouraging her to love him more, do extra sweet things for him, etc. He is already the lower-performing spouse, and all of the stuff she has already done went into a bucket with a hole in the bottom. He has to want to do the work to patch that hole or nothing will ever change for him.

 

My spouse has depression. BTDT. If he goes off his meds he will be out of the house. I'm not living with a shell of a person who refuses to take care of himself ever again.

[NorthwestMom]

 

 

We were in counseling for years. He kept not going, not doing it, etc. Stopping meds. Finally he said, in a counseling session, "things are never going to change. I'm never going to change. I'm fine with how I am." And he meant it. 

 

Ugh. I'm sorry that happened to you, and good for you for walking away from that.

[hornblower]

I'd tell him: get treatment or start prepping to pay child support.

If all you think your role is, is to provide a paycheck then you can do that from a distance while I raise the children in home that is warm, cheerful, filled with laughter & people who love each other.

[wapiti]

Another less-conventional approach she might consider trying is looking at diet and vitamin/supplements from a health angle.  Maybe he'd be willing to go along with an approach that sounds less "psychological" and more "physical health" in nature (not necessarily admitting that they are connected).  Without knowing more specifics, I'd probably take a look at The Mood Cure at the library, and others.

[ktgrok]

Ugh. I'm sorry that happened to you, and good for you for walking away from that.

 

Thank you. It was absolutely the hardest thing I ever did in my life. I didn't believe in divorce. I figured I made my bed, I'd lie in it. I only left because I finally saw it was harming my son. I realized he was going to grow up thinking that was what a man was, how one behaved/acted. I couldn't stand that. I wanted more for my son. My therapist was a life saver. She listened to me say over and over, "I can't leave." and then asked, gently. Ok, you can't. But if you did, what would that look like? What would that be like?

 

In that framework I could safely discuss it, and realized I would move in with my parents. And finally, I did. I did what I could never imagine I could do. My parents helped, and showered my love deprived son with love. And structure. And normalcy. And it helped so much. I cried for weeks. My son cried that first night, for his father. It was like being stabbed in the heart to hear him cry and know I'd left, I'd done this to him. Typing this I am crying now. It was that hard. But...he's so much better off. And oddly, so is my ex. Without me to take care of him he learned to take care of himself. he's not great, but he's much much better in many way. 

[Slartibartfast]

I would insist that he seek counseling and start on medication.

 

I wouldn't just seek counseling myself. I would MAKE him see a Dr and it would actually look like, "I have made you an appointment. We are now going to drive to the appointment. You will get in the car. Now." I would tolerate NO discussion of that "it's spiritual blah...I am not going to try meds...blah" I would say "GET IN THE CAR!!!! YOU TAKE THESE PILLS!!!"

 

If he won't consider meds or therapy I would leave.

 

His kids don't deserve that.

 

I would not be interested in a marriage like that. He needs to either work on getting better or I would be unwilling to subject my children to that.

[Annie G]

I would only suggest this if the undevoted behavior from him was not very long-standing and/or there was a long history prior to his "funk" that demonstrates he is capable of loving her. I say this because I have seen a whole heck of a lot of instances in which the mate is bending over backwards, trying to get the non-lover to just see how very lovable they are. Most often, by the time the non-lover has said what the OP indicates, they are already exceedingly mentally divorced from the poor mate. Personally, I am not going to jump through a zillion hoops to try to convince the non-lover that he's got a good bargain in me. If he doesn't love me when I'm acting reasonably normal, but only "remembers" that he maybe loves me when I'm blowing his mind with good deeds, then I don't want him.

 

And I say that as a very traditional sort of wife, who does a lot for dh's benefit.

 

I guess I assumed that before the depression hit that the dh was a loving husband.  And I wasn't thinking that the gestures were to show how lovable the wife is...she sure doesn't need to prove her worth in the relationship. I think I would just try to show the guy that HE is worth loving- he has to love himself and want to get better. He has to see a reason to seek help and overcome his depression.  It would be very difficult to do all these loving gestures when the wife is just not feeling loved. 

 

But all this assumes the guy was a decent husband and dad before all this. 

[Anne in CA]

Honestly the scary thing about your friend having no income is that this man cannot be depended upon. I have seen depressed workaholics over the years and I have never seen one really get ahead. They are not good financial planners, their plan is always to make more money and not spend any on anything fun. That is not really a plan. 

 

Your friend is depending on a man who is not mentally healthy by his own admission. I am not a fan of working a lot when you have young kids, and I only worked part time when my children were small, but she is not in a spot to wait until the kids are older to start taking some classes and then make a plan later. 

 

Right now I would tell your friend to figure out how to make some money, because if he takes a turn for the worse, and that is entirely possible, she will be stuck. Since she needs fun maybe she could start a tiny cottage industry business that brings in a little income while she figures out how to earn and have some fun in the process. 

 

I had a friend with a husband like this. Eventually he decided to self medicate with meth. He used up all their savings and left her deeply in debt with three children. She did not have any idea how to make money because he was a workaholic tile setter who made a lot of money and it had not seemed necessary for her to work. The whole things was just a nightmare. They had friends (sadly not me) who saw thing coming and begged her to get a job and not depend on him when he was so depressed, but she was afraid he would be further crushed by her perusing employment.

[Guest]

Wow.  This is so sad. 

 

I do not understand why people will not get help.  This is not the first post I have read today that makes that statement.  So sad.  

 

I think your friend should do a couple of things:  She should be as kind and loving as she can (I know that this is asking a lot in a flawed situation...but there it is) 

and

I think that she should make sure that she has a back-up plan.  If she doesn't have a college degree, she should get one OR she should get training that would let her be a breadwinner.  Not necessarily with a plan to leave him but with an option if he leaves her...one way or another.  

and

I think she and her kids should find a way to engage in a community that will put good people around them.  A church.  Scouts.  Boys and Girls Club?  (IDK on the last one...just thinking out loud...)  A community service organization.  A group that does things like camping or hiking together.  The affection bucket has to be filled somehow, and they need to have a circle of support around them.  

 

What sadness there is in the world.

 

[*Inna*]

He doesn't buy the medical theory and he doesn't think medication is an answer.  He thinks it is spiritual and that it is out of his control...again, complicated to explain and I don't even quite fully understand the situation so I shouldn't venture to attempt it :/

 

If he thinks it's only a spiritual issue, I would recommend this for him :http://www.amazon.com/Steps-Freedom-Christ-Study-Guide/dp/0764213733/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1416096973&sr=8-1&keywords=steps+to+freedom+in+christ+neil+anderson

 

For me, it was a first step in dealing with depression. Then, the other things have followed - diet, exercise, counseling, medications...

[Melinda in VT]

She makes no income and her DH spends zero money on himself. She would feel extremely guilty doing anything without him, using money he'd earned, when he would never spend money on such things - not that everything has to cost money. They also have some medical expenses that make their budget pretty tight. It is complicated.

This raises more red flags for me. I would put a high priority in getting a good job. Even if it meant putting the kids in public school.

[indigomama]

If he thinks it's only spiritual, could she find a Pastor that her husband would respect, who believes that mental illness is indeed a medical issue that needs to be addressed medically as well as spiritually? 

 

Maybe if he heard from a "spiritual" person that he really does need help, he'd listen. I know that any pastor at our church would insist he get medical help and they would let him know, kindly, that his behavior was not honoring his family.

[Joanne]

Why are she and the kids stuck at home?

 

In her position, I would absolutely plan and do fun things with the kids. DH would have a standing invitation to join us, but I'd focus on living the life I want to live with my kids, whether he joins us or not.

.

 

This. But I am open to an "utilitarian " marriage arrangement as long as there is not a power imbalance and I am free to fill my life with joy and abundance.

 

I would probably only do this with kids - if kids were grow , I would divorce.

 

In her case, build a happy life and when he wants to join, fine. If not, fine

[Garga]

I was raised in a church where everything was a spiritual issue. People would pray and wait for God to heal them for everything. They were committed and sincere in their beliefs. So I get what he's saying.

 

But for myself, if it were me, I would insist strongly and continuously that he get medical help. Apparently his faith isn't strong enough (because that's always what they think it is) to trust God on this one. I'd tell my dh, "Your faith isn't strong enough. Get medical treatment instead. I will not live like this."

 

I'd push and push and push and see what happens. If nothing does, then I'm not sure what I'd do next, but until she's pushed for him to get help, I wouldn't bother with steps beyond that.

[HS Mom in NC]

I have a friend who has been struggling in her marriage.  Her DH is a really good person and she loves him, but he has been struggling with depression and apathy.  He continues to tell her something along these lines....

 

"I am committed to you, I will provide for you, I will be kind and respectful of you, but I am a hollow person.....life has thrown me so many disappointments and I have nothing else to give.  Just always know that it isn't your fault and trust me on that."

 

It is finally settling in on dear friend that this may be her new reality (because things aren't changing).  What should she do to get past the feeling that her current situation is somehow her fault?  

 

She needs to understand that depression is a medical condition.  Would she blame herself if her husband has MS, dementia, or coronary heart disease?

 

What can she do on her part to protect her marriage as she begins to feel more and more resentment toward her dh's coldness?

 

This is a statement contrary to him being kind and respectful.  Kind and respectful is warm, not cold. 

 

 Is it appropriate to build walls of protection or will that only make the situation worse?

 

I'm not sure it's even practical.  Having been down this road I can't imagine a scenario where she can protect herself from the heartbreak and grief of what the marriage was and what it may well be from here on out.  I suggest she grieve the loss and start over in her marriage with him.

 

 What if her dh is always serious/depressed and his only therapy is to work....all.the.time (either at work or at home).  He is a hard worker and it is where he finds satisfaction.  She and the kids have been stuck at home and rarely have anything lighthearted or fun to do -

 

If that's what it is, then that's what it is.  She just needs to have realistic expectations of her now normal. 

 

should she start planning things without him or is that inappropriate?

 

I think all couples need to do some of that whether depression is a factor or not.  She can always genuinely invite him and if he refuses, go on without him to whatever event it is.  She'll have to emotionally discipline herself to not take it personally. The world doesn't stop just because someone has depression.  She and her children can still have rich, full social lives even if he's not there.  She doesn't ever need to feel guilty about that.

 

 What can she do to help herself and her children that won't make DH's problems worse?

 

I think those are two questions, not one.  What can she do to help herself and her children?  Have a clear understanding that depression is a medical condition.  Some people have success with treatments and others don't.  That's not the fault of a spouse.  How can she not make things worse?  Blame him for his medical condition.  Expect that love will make a medical condition get better.  Decide people with medical conditions or those married to them are automatically exempt from marriage vows.

 

What can you do?  Well, if she wants to talk about it (I rarely do) listen and sympathize.  If she is like many typical Americans, she may need encouragement to not make her spouse the sole source of her emotional satisfaction.  Encourage her to cultivate other close relationships with her female friends and her extended family members. She have a rich emotional life even if he doesn't contribute to it.  All or nothing thinking is the big danger.  If she thinks she can't have a high quality life without is emotional engagement, she needs you to tell her otherwise.

 

This DH has been struggling for two years and the last 6 months have been even more difficult.    

 

Yes.  It could get even more difficult.  She should be prepared for the possibility.  If she is and it happens, she's ready.  If it doesn't, even better.  It was followed by my husband walking away from the faith we shared.  A year and a half ago we were on the brink of divorce that he was considering initiating.  We went through marriage counseling.  Our lives have been tuned upside down, but we're in a fairly good place now.  It may last.  It may collapse next week. That's how life is sometimes.

 

 

Also, how can I help her?

 

 

Her DH will not consider meds or therapy....period.  Not even for a second will he entertain that thought. 

 

There are people with depression, like my husband, who have better days when they've have a fairly consistently good diet and regular moderate exercise.  The challenge is getting started.  Long work hours can be a really challenge for maintaining it. It's not going to make depression go away, but it can help it not be as bad sometimes. 

 

If there are other lifestyle factors that contribute to his depression like hating his job and financial situations, address them as much as possible.  Anything that can make those better is time well spent.  When my husband wanted to start his own business I encouraged it.  It was a big challenge, but it put more of his life in his control and having the skill set he did.  It's been a couple of years now and it was tough, but by early next year, God willing, we break even and will be in better shape.  It means more work for him, but it's worth it.  He's doing better.  I never once fretted about the risk in front of him.

 

Depression can run in families.  Be prepared to deal with it in your children. BTDT.

 

[Danestress]

I can only answer imaginatively, because I obviously don't know the people and all the circumstances, so I have to use my imagination to fill in the blanks.  But here is my take.

 

 I imagine that this guy is a sitting duck for an affair.  He could very easily meet a woman some day who DOES make him "feel" again, and he will discover that he is not actually hollow inside.  Then he will justify dumping his wife and kids for the other woman because he believes that his feelings are all about "spiritual" reality, and that his new, super s@xy relationship is sooooo special and unique that it must be ordained by God some how.  

 

The problem with convenient marriages is that we don't really have the society anymore that demands they stay together.  That might be a good thing about the modern world if you really badly want/need to get out of a marriage.  But I think it can also make a woman like this very vulnerable.  Her husband doesn't love her, has already told her so, and is unwilling to work on  it.  She is just supposed to "trust him" that he is broken inside so this is just the way it is. Right now, he is willing to be the kind and respectful breadwinner.  But if he meets that "someone else" who makes him feel alive again, he could pretty easily leave.  People do it all the time.    

 

So I think this woman needs to be prepared that she may be alone someday.  But that doesn't mean she should go ahead and leave.  I can't say what I would do.  My first thought was that I would never ever ask my husband again how he really feels.  I can so easily imagine pressuring a husband to be more intimate and revealing, and then to hear something like this.  This isn't what women want when they beg their husbands to talk talk talk about feelings:)   If I wanted to stay, I think I would have to get a lot tougher and better able to live without emotional intimacy (at least from my partner).  If he is a great Dad, that would make a huge difference to me.  If he makes a lot of money, she might want to start figuring out how to build a cushion for herself if he (or she) decides to leave.  

 

Very sad:(

[Tanaqui]

He thinks it is spiritual and that it is out of his control.

 

Sounds like the depression talking. Unfortunately, your friend can't force him to go to counseling - or if she did, she couldn't force him to get anything out of it. Right now, she needs to take care of herself. Go to her own therapy, take the kids out to fun places (whether he goes or not), and prepare herself in case she decides she can't stay in that relationship anymore.

 

What can you do? Well, you can give her that good advice. When she starts going to therapy, you can take the kids for that hour or so every week. When you do fun things, you can invite her and the kids along (and her husband too, whether or not he accepts). You can definitely let her know about free or low cost things she can do either by herself or with the children. You can encourage her to get more work experience through volunteering or, especially if the kids are in school, a part time job, and to invest in her education. You can listen to her when she talks about her husband - but you shouldn't use that opportunity to criticize him, just listen. You don't want to make her think she has to choose between her loyalty to him and her friendship with you.

 

[Joanne]

I can only answer imaginatively, because I obviously don't know the people and all the circumstances, so I have to use my imagination to fill in the blanks. But here is my take.

 

I imagine that this guy is a sitting duck for an affair. He could very easily meet a woman some day who DOES make him "feel" again, and he will discover that he is not actually hollow inside. Then he will justify dumping his wife and kids for the other woman because he believes that his feelings are all about "spiritual" reality, and that his new, super s@xy relationship is sooooo special and unique that it must be ordained by God some how.

 

The problem with convenient marriages is that we don't really have the society anymore that demands they stay together. That might be a good thing about the modern world if you really badly want/need to get out of a marriage. But I think it can also make a woman like this very vulnerable. Her husband doesn't love her, has already told her so, and is unwilling to work on it. She is just supposed to "trust him" that he is broken inside so this is just the way it is. Right now, he is willing to be the kind and respectful breadwinner. But if he meets that "someone else" who makes him feel alive again, he could pretty easily leave. People do it all the time.

 

So I think this woman needs to be prepared that she may be alone somedayd:(

The current behavior is not inconsistent with an existing affair or a set up for a planned affair.

 

I am not saying one IS HAPPENING but it is absolutely possible.

[OnTheBrink]

I'm sorry, but I think her husband is being incredibly selfish for not getting some sort of help. If he doesn't believe in traditional therapy and medication, fine. But to flatly refuse any attempt to get his issues either resolved or manageable is about as self-centered as it gets. There is all sorts of spiritual help for depression. There are also medical issues that can cause it. He needs to AT LEAST find out where the depression is coming from and then come up with a plan--whether it's counsel with a therapist of his own belief system, or via the medical route. I just find it absolutely unacceptable that he's decided his family must be resigned to endure his depression with no attempt at getting help for it. It just pi$$es me off. 

 

And, I am not without compassion on those who suffer from depression--I know it can be debilitating. My step brother committed suicide due to his depression. But what I can't see is why someone wouldn't at least attempt to get some help, especially if he has a family. 

 

That said, I feel for the wife and kids. What a horrible thing to be faced with and have to regroup over. 

[countrygal]

I haven't read all the responses.

 

Workaholism is an addiction just like gambling, drinking, etc... except it is generally accepted by society as a good thing. Many men who are depressed are workaholics, it's the way they 'escape', just like an alcoholic goes to booze, etc... I'm saying this because she needs to look educate herself on how workaholics think and why they do what they do. She can approach the situation a little better. I don't think the recovery rate is very good for workaholics either, just like other addictive behaviors. Sounds like he is in need of help, but you can't do anything for the unwilling. Very sad situation. Maybe he has other people in his life that can help him? Sometimes someone else would have a bigger influence - church elder, brother, work boss, etc... to help him get help.

 

 

[Tsuga]

 

She and the kids have been stuck at home and rarely have anything lighthearted or fun to do - should she start planning things without him or is that inappropriate?

 

I would just go and live the life I wanted. Before my divorce, that's what I did and it really made a difference. I don't think it's inappropriate, provided she is not going out with men, of course.

 

He will hit bottom and I wouldn't leave him if he's still working and committed and not like, yelling at her or somthing. Though she should be warned--the deadness is protection against anger, which is protection against fear.

 

He will get "worse" before he gets better. First you feel afraid (medical issues, bills, why aren't I getting ahead, what if I lose my job, oh my God it will be the end, a man can't support his family, what kind of a man is that, men feel that you know), then you turn it off with anger, then you get sick of that and turn it all off. To turn it back on you have to go back through to address the fear. For a lot of us, it's a fear that we will not achieve what we were told we had to in life--supporting our families and having financial security.

 

I know in my case, I felt that I'd done everything "right" and worked very hard. The prospect of financial insecurity--being "a taker", being a loser, all kinds of things, just not supporting my family which I felt would by totally my fault because after all, if people take credit when they are successful, shouldn't I take blame when I fail? This was terrifying for me. I had never failed at anything. I was always able to overcome everything through hard work and intelligence.

 

The idea that I could lose everything was petrifying. It meant that in spite of working hard my whole life, I might still be a failure. They say that if you work hard you can have some security, but I didn't have security, so what had I done wrong? I just could not deal with that. It is still hard to deal with, frankly. I waver between anger at the world for lying to me--asking me to work so hard and not giving me any level of security in return, though I have been gainfully employed for over 20 years now and actually work in management--and anger at myself--"How could you have screwed this up?!? You wasted 20 years on basic needs! Some people used that that time to get rich, but you somehow wasted your talent. Top of your class... but bottom of the pyramid. Way to go."

 

So if this guy is working all the time, but not able to save, falling behind... yeah, I can see how that would be depressing and empty. You feel like a total failure. Working makes you feel better because you feel like (a) you don't have to believe the world has royally screwed you over (safety from anger) and ( b ) that you are making progress towards a solution (reducing fear). You feel like, "Well I might not have gotten where I planned but I will do it. I won't get angry at the world, and I won't be afraid or a victim. I will work."

 

Life nowadays is very, very insecure. It's unfair to say he should get treatment or she should leave.

 

Treatment for depression is extremely painful. Telling yourself that the deadness is not inevitable is to face horrible feelings of fear and anger and also uncertainty. Right now he is safe. Nobody can hurt him. Nobody, not God, not his wife, NOBODY. If he gets treatment, he has to face all that--why did we work so hard but not achieve what our parents achieved? We remember them eating dinner with the family... getting bonuses... were we lazy? There's fear. If work doesn't solve things, then what does? Could it really be out of our control whether our family ends up on the street?

 

I don't know if she should get a job. To him that might seem like he's already failed. He probably doesn't realize that he hasn't hit bottom yet. But I do think she should keep the option open.

 

Maybe this guy is depressed about something else. But knowing what I know about a lot of people my age, depression about feelings of failure and hopelessness are not uncommon. Two years of depression is not a long time. He needs another man to stand by his side, not just a counselor. A man who can validate who he is without judgment while he goes through counseling.

 

It is not an easy time to support a family all by your lonesome. We are a two-income family with no health issues (knock on wood) and we struggle.

[Little Nyssa]

I would encourage her to go to a support group run by NAMI or at least look at their website-- the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill. It is family members of those with mental illness, helping other families. nami.org

[HS Mom in NC]

I haven't read all the responses.

 

Workaholism is an addiction just like gambling, drinking, etc... except it is generally accepted by society as a good thing. Many men who are depressed are workaholics, it's the way they 'escape', just like an alcoholic goes to booze, etc... I'm saying this because she needs to look educate herself on how workaholics think and why they do what they do. She can approach the situation a little better. I don't think the recovery rate is very good for workaholics either, just like other addictive behaviors. Sounds like he is in need of help, but you can't do anything for the unwilling. Very sad situation. Maybe he has other people in his life that can help him? Sometimes someone else would have a bigger influence - church elder, brother, work boss, etc... to help him get help.

 

I agree that this is often the case.  (So can watching TV all the time, online gaming all the time, reading all the time, etc.)  Workaholism is  particularly challenging because men usually have to work, so it's not like alcohol or porn where if you stop doing it entirely your life improves.  Quitting working cold turkey is irresponsible. It's really hard for them to strike a balance.

[Mrs Mungo]

This raises more red flags for me. I would put a high priority in getting a good job. Even if it meant putting the kids in public school.

I agree. I would start putting my ducks in a row, to include getting a job. I would issue an ultimatum, but only after I had a plan and some money stashed away. I don't think staying in a marriage like this would be a good example for my kids or be healthy for them.

[Mrs Mungo]

The current behavior is not inconsistent with an existing affair or a set up for a planned affair.

 

I am not saying one IS HAPPENING but it is absolutely possible.

I agree with this too. I have seen it more than once. "Let's live as roommates" can quickly become "I have found someone else" and the woman is cut short, he already had a plan.

[Catwoman]

Charleigh, it sounds like your friend has plenty of issues of her own, such as feeling guilty about spending the money that her dh makes -- it's as though she considers it "his" money or something and all of her work at home with the kids is worth nothing.  That is simply not true.

 

If I was in her situation, I'd start socking money away and getting some job skills. I would also speak with an attorney and find out what would be the likely settlement in the event of a divorce. Once I had all of my ducks in a row, I would give the dh an ultimatum to shape up or ship out. His reasoning and excuses wouldn't wash with me, and I would never let my dh get away with treating my child poorly or ignoring him. That is just plain wrong. 

 

I may be overly suspicious, but I would honestly be suspecting that the dh is having an affair, or that he's gay. Maybe he is working so hard when he's at home because he's "working" on a relationship with someone else while he's supposed to be working at his office, and the only time he gets any real work done is when he is at home with his family. (Just something to think about.)

 

Has your friend ever checked up on him to see if he's telling the truth? Could he be involved with another woman or man at the office? Is she 100% sure all of the money is where she believes it to be? Does she have access to all of the accounts? Do the numbers add up?  I don't think she should be taking him at his word when there are such huge problems in the marriage.

[Tsuga]

I'm sorry, but I think her husband is being incredibly selfish for not getting some sort of help. ...But what I can't see is why someone wouldn't at least attempt to get some help, especially if he has a family. 

 

Maybe he feels it is better for his family without him. Maybe he feels that the best thing for them is money, but not his personality or his thoughts or dreams. Maybe he feels worthless but recognizes that they need money to survive and just hides in that, just depends on that one thought to keep going: "At least they have this house. At least they have the insurance."

 

If he's really depressed, and not, as some have seemed to claim, and adulterer seeking to blame his detachment on depression, then I think that there are a LOT of reasons that he might detach and try to get away from things.

 

We hardly know anything about him or his life or his mental state or his internal struggle!

 

And some accuse him of being selfish and an adulterer. Men can have feelings which are not related to poking into some other lady!

 

Deliberately emphasized because I really think this thread seems to assume that he couldn't be feeling truly, existentially hopeless.

 

I for one do not think depression and suicidal thoughts are "selfish". You truly feel, when depressed, you believe, that your life is worth nothing in the greater scheme of things, and that really your family would be better off without you. Maybe you all can't imagine that line of thinking but I can, and it's such a horrible place to be.

 

Of course nobody's said, "Watch out for his purchase of a comprehensive life insurance policy." Nobody's said, "Keep the gun locked--maybe change the combo." Nobody's said, depression is an illness and you don't leave a man with an illness.

 

Instead people are saying keep him away from other women. I was with a cheater. I know it happens. But why cast aspersion on a man just because he's feeling hopeless?

 

http://www.lawyerswithdepression.com/articles/overworkunderwork-two-sides-to-male-depression/

 

I just feel bad for this guy. The numbness, the fear of hope... it's really such a hard place to be. You can't be around your family without crying, so you can't be around them.

 

(That said, I agree that he is vulnerable to an affair at this point in his life--but that's not the same as saying that is one of the main problems she needs to deal with.)

[Mrs Mungo]

Maybe he feels it is better for his family without him. Maybe he feels that the best thing for them is money, but not his personality or his thoughts or dreams. Maybe he feels worthless but recognizes that they need money to survive and just hides in that, just depends on that one thought to keep going: "At least they have this house. At least they have the insurance."

Then he needs to seek help, period. That is the ultimatum people are talking about, isn't it?

 

If he's really depressed, and not, as some have seemed to claim, and adulterer seeking to blame his detachment on depression, then I think that there are a LOT of reasons that he might detach and try to get away from things.

 

We hardly know anything about him or his life or his mental state or his internal struggle!

 

And some accuse him of being selfish and an adulterer. Men can have feelings which are not related to poking into some other lady!

 

Nobody has claimed any point of fact or accused him of anything. That is high drama, at best. What people said is that this behavior (taken in total, including her not spending money, etc) leaves her very vulnerable in many ways. She needs to be aware of the possibilities and plan for them. I have been married for more than 20 years. We have gone through many hard times, our lifestyle virtually guarantees it. I know what it takes to get through those hard times. I know how many couples don't make it through and how vulnerable a non-working spouse with small kids can be. People have advised that she 1) insist on him getting help, 2) get help for herself and 3) find ways to start protecting herself.

[Tsuga]

"Nobody has claimed any point of fact or accused him of anything."

 

I guess insinuated would be a better word.

 

Talking about things parallel to depression--adultery, workaholism--that is really beside the point, to my mind.

 

I hear what you are saying and I'm not arguing that she should not take care of herself. Absolutely she should.

 

What I object to is the tone throughout the thread that somehow, this guy's depression "may be really something else".

 

Sure, it MIGHT. But really? Who says something like that? I've been on both sides of the coin and I can't say that in either case, setting an ultimatum for ending my depression or his would have helped at all.

 

(Though, getting a job--I'm for everyone getting a job, that always helps.)

[Mrs Mungo]

Nobody is saying that it might be something else. I haven't seen a single person claim that he isn't depressed. Everyone has suggested that he needs to get help, even if she has to insist or take drastic measures to get him there. But, a man cutting his wife off emotionally IS vulnerable to an affair. She needs to think about that possibility, especially given his frequent long absences from the home, her lack of access to funds and his emotional unavailability to her. She needs to consider it and protect herself. That is what people are saying. There is no need to over dramatize what people are saying.

[Mrs Mungo]

Note that Danestress was the first one to bring up the possibility of an affair and what she said was, "I imagine that this guy is a sitting duck for an affair. He could very easily meet a woman some day who DOES make him 'feel' again, and he will discover that he is not actually hollow inside." She didn't say he was having an affair. She said he was vulnerable to it.

[Ann.without.an.e]

Charleigh, it sounds like your friend has plenty of issues of her own, such as feeling guilty about spending the money that her dh makes -- it's as though she considers it "his" money or something and all of her work at home with the kids is worth nothing.  That is simply not true.

 

 I would never let my dh get away with treating my child poorly or ignoring him. That is just plain wrong. 

 

 

 

 

If he's really depressed, and not, as some have seemed to claim, and adulterer seeking to blame his detachment on depression, then I think that there are a LOT of reasons that he might detach and try to get away from things.

 

 

 

I for one do not think depression and suicidal thoughts are "selfish". You truly feel, when depressed, you believe, that your life is worth nothing in the greater scheme of things, and that really your family would be better off without you. Maybe you all can't imagine that line of thinking but I can, and it's such a horrible place to be.

 

 

 

Nobody has claimed any point of fact or accused him of anything.

 

 

 

Mungo and Binip,

 

I agree that while it wasn't outright said, it has been heavily suspected/insinuated by a few that this DH is either having an affair or on the brink of it.  It isn't wrong to insinuate that without knowing him or the circumstances.  speculation is just that....speculation.

 

I am 99.9% sure that this man is not having an affair and that he wouldn't have an affair.  He is a very trustworthy person with a very strong sense of right/wrong and is just a very faithful person.

 

 

 

Catwoman,

 

You are right.  She shouldn't feel guilty.  The guilt has more to do with the fact that her dh does NOT spend money on anything but food, shelter, clothing, and modestly.  He is a very money conscious person.  If he works so hard to earn said money and chooses not to spend  then how can she do anything fun (that takes money) without feeling guilty?  For example, if he forgot his lunch he would simply not eat before he would buy a sandwich from subway :/ 

 

It was never stated that he treats his children badly.  I think you were referring to another poster who was talking about her past marriage.  My friend's DH is a good dad and a good husband.  He is simply struggling on a very deep level and that leaves him a bit empty on the inside.