Tired of discussing every.little.thing with DCs....

[Tranquility7]

My DCs (ETA: 8yo, 4yo, 6 mos) are generally good kids. Generally obedient. We teach them obedience, and we discipline when needed. We definitely do not do it perfectly (probably we are too lenient); I’m just stating all of this upfront so there is a little background to my question.

 

We want our DC to be able to petition us when we tell them to do something. We want them to know that their voices and opinions matter. Therefore, when we tell them to do something, we generally listen to their response as long as they are being polite and respectful (and hopefully obeying, if it is something that can be begun while making their petition/comment/etc).

 

The problem is… I feel like they want me to discuss everything with them constantly. Constantly. Constantly. I feel like everything I tell them to do is met with a petition. They will obey. But I am just SO DRAINED by constantly having to discuss everything with them. I’m tired of it. I just want to tell them to do something and NOT have it turn into ANY kind of conversation!!!!!!!

 

A huge part of the equation, I’m sure, is that I am a extreme introvert. My kids and I are home all day together, AND my DH works at home too, so that is yet another person to converse with throughout the day. It takes so much energy for me to communicate this much. Constantly discussing every little thing I tell my kids to do completely drains me and is making me lose my mind. I am generally a patient person, but I am losing my patience with this. By the end of the day my ears are practically ringing from all of this explaining and discussing that happens all.day.long.

 

But I also don’t like the idea of teaching our kids that they are to obey without a word, without asking any questions, without any understanding, without any voice. So that is my problem. How do I reconcile wanting my kids to know their voices matter, and yet seriously sometimes just not wanting to HEAR THOSE VOICES constantly? :lol:

*********

Edited to add examples:

Ok, here are some examples. These are all actual conversations we had this very day! I remember them well since they drove me insane ;-)

 

In isolation, these conversations wouldn’t drive me batty (well, maybe the last one would, lol). But all day, about everything, I lose my mind!!!!!!

 

He has a good attitude in these conversations. He isn’t trying to be difficult or insolent or disobedient. They aren't even necessarily petitions. He isn’t even trying to be argumentative, and yet I totally feel argued with, KWIM?! What am I doing wrong??

 

Example #1:

Me: Ok, get out your Latin book please.

DS: But we haven’t even done math yet. <we often do math before Latin>

Me: Yes, I know. Please get out your Latin book.

DS: Ummm, do you know it’s already 12:00? <implying it is lunchtime>

Me: Yes, I know. Please get out your Latin book.

DS: Well can I go to the bathroom first?

Me: No. Now Please get out your Latin book.

DS: But Mom, I really need to go.

Me: You should have gone during our break. Please get out your Latin book.

<and he finally gets out his Latin book (while also asking if I remember he has Taekwondo this afternoon! YES!!!! I DO!!! Now BE QUIET!!!!!)>

 

Now, all of those questions are, in my mind, kind of legit. I understand why he is asking them. I understand why he thinks they are relevant. But I’m also thinking of other things – such as, I know our math this week is easy, we need to do some Latin nearly every day, so I’m thinking I just want to skip math today and focus on Latin. And I’m thinking I’d like him to be able to do a history lesson after lunch, but I want to already have Latin crossed off by then. And so, RIGHT NOW – I just want him to GET HIS LATIN BOOK! And I don’t want to have to have a conversation about it!

 

Example #2:

During piano practice:

<as he is playing a new piece in his Suzuki book>

Me: You should put a lift between those two phrases there.

DS: But that isn’t how the recording sounds.

Me: I’m not commenting on how the recording sounds. I’m saying you need a lift because it is clearly written that way.

DS: Yes, but doesn’t the recording have them all slurred together?

Me: I am not commenting on the recording <though I was quite sure they are not slurred on the recording, but I didn’t want to argue that point>. I’m saying that Mrs. G. didn’t write on your music to continue that slur, and so you should play with a lift between, since it is written that way.

DS: Don’t you think it is strange how the recording is different sometimes than the way the book is written?

Me: Right now I just want you to play it as written please.

DS: And it is strange too that Mrs. G. sometimes changes it too.

Me: Yes, I know. Now please just PLAY IT AS WRITTEN. Mrs. G will change it if she wants to. For now, I do not want to hear one more word about it.

 

Example #3:

<I bumped the banister as I walked by with my arms full of laundry and knocked down DS’s sunglasses.>

Me: DS, please don’t put your sunglasses on top of the banister. They will get broken.

DS: Actually, those aren’t my sunglasses. They are DD’s.

Me: Ok. Please pick them up. <ETA: by "pick them up" I meant literally pick them up off the floor so I wouldn't step on them - I was not telling him to put them away; they belong in our car, so they don't really have a proper place to be inside the house>

<He picks them up and puts them BACK on the banister!>

Me: DS, please do not put those on the banister. Why would you put those on the banister when I JUST said not to put them there?

DS: You said not to put MY sunglasses on the banister. But these are DD’s.

Me: Are you seriously saying you thought it was okay then to put DD’s sunglasses on the banister when I told you not to put yours on the banister?

DS: Oh. Hmmm. <giggles to himself> I guess not. <He grabs the sunglasses and runs upstairs, assuming I want him to give them to DD, who is in her room.>

Me: <as he is running noisily upstairs - not sure why I talked when I knew he couldn't hear me!> Please put them down here in the coat closet. <I hear him toss the sunglasses into DD’s room, on the FLOOR!>

Me: *sigh*

<DS runs back downstairs, oblivious that I'd said to put the sunglasses in the closet>

Me: Go get them and put them in the coat closet.

DS: I don’t have them.

Me: That is why I said, ‘Go get them,’ first. I said, ‘GO GET THEM and put them in the coat closet.’

DS: Oh. I put them in DD’s room.

Me: I KNOW. GO GET THEM and put them in the coat closet.

DS: Oh, ok.

 

Is it me, or is that just WAY.too.much unnecessary conversation??

 

I’m utterly exhausted.

 

[Jen500]

Can you give some examples?

Usually if I tell/ask my kids to do something, I include the reason why with my request.

[momacacia]

"Yes, Mom!"

 

There, I said it for you. Sigh...listening in.

[idnib]

We had this problem.

 

I told DS that if we disagreed and he wanted to change my mind, he had to give me a summary of his reasoning in one sentence. I know that sounds harsh, but he was fine with it because I couched it in terms of writing and being able to summarize your points. It became like a game: how to communicate your best point(s) in the most succinct manner possible, using correct grammar.

 

Bonus for sneaking in homeschool!

 

I would then either give him an answer, or tell him to tell me more, if I was up for it.

[dauphin]

Omg I <3 you idnib. Stealing!

 

I am another introvert living in a houseful of extroverts. I could have written this too except it appears I'm not as long as patience on you and maybe leaning a little more on the behavioral side of things (what you reward will increase in frequency). I've started a few similar threads myself (like, in CM you're supposed to ask the kids to talk MORE!?!?!? No! (re: narrations, hahah)). Yes, you get so "talked out" that it even hurts having to hear yourself talk. No solution either but hugs too. And I also agree with PP about petitions having a limited supply per day....

[Tranquility7]

Ok, I added some examples above. They aren't even as much "petitions" as just conversation and comments. (Sometimes they are petitions, but the examples that first came to mind were not.)

 

Anyway... thanks for all the input. I have to make supper now but I will be back soon :-)

 

[HS Mom in NC]

My DCs are generally good kids. Generally obedient. We teach them obedience, and we discipline when needed. We definitely do not do it perfectly (probably we are too lenient); I’m just stating all of this upfront so there is a little background to my question.

 

We want our DC to be able to petition us when we tell them to do something. We want them to know that their voices and opinions matter. Therefore, when we tell them to do something, we generally listen to their response as long as they are being polite and respectful (and hopefully obeying, if it is something that can be begun while making their petition/comment/etc).

 

The problem is… I feel like they want me to discuss everything with them constantly. Constantly. Constantly. I feel like everything I tell them to do is met with a petition. They will obey. But I am just SO DRAINED by constantly having to discuss everything with them. I’m tired of it. I just want to tell them to do something and NOT have it turn into ANY kind of conversation!!!!!!!

 

So discuss as much as you feel like and then be honest and say, "I'm done now." or "I'm all talked out on this now." Then refuse to continue.  Tell them to go discuss it between themselves or to go play or walk out of the room and go do something else in another room or whatever.  It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

 

A huge part of the equation, I’m sure, is that I am a extreme introvert. My kids and I are home all day together, AND my DH works at home too, so that is yet another person to converse with throughout the day.

 

My husband has worked from home for about 17 years now.  He works in his office and comes down for lunch and dinner. We don't talk to each other during the day because when he's home working, he's home working.  Chatting with me and or the kids isn't working.

 

It takes so much energy for me to communicate this much. Constantly discussing every little thing I tell my kids to do completely drains me and is making me lose my mind.

 

If you're introducing something new, then I can see needing to discuss it, but if it's not new, when why do you feel obligated to keep going on about per their whims?  Do you mean school work?  Have them read the directions out loud to you, have them explain the examples and then tell them to get to work and only come to discuss something they don't understand.  If you've discussed all you need to with them and they keep going on, then cut off the conversation.  I have an oldest child that would talk non-stop for more than an hour (I timed it see.) I finally had to tell her after about 15 minutes, "You've been talking about this a long time, it's time for you to stop talking now." I have another that will go on and on about the same thing or ask over and over.  I had to tell her things like, "It's OK to be quiet sometimes." or "I already answered that." or "That's not important right now."  and "Now go work on it."  Sometimes I have to say, "You can talk more when you're done.  Be quiet and get to work." or "Wrap it up, this is going on too long. "

 

I am generally a patient person, but I am losing my patience with this. By the end of the day my ears are practically ringing from all of this explaining and discussing that happens all.day.long.

 

Then tell them to stop.

 

But I also don’t like the idea of teaching our kids that they are to obey without a word, without asking any questions, without any understanding, without any voice. So that is my problem. How do I reconcile wanting my kids to know their voices matter, and yet seriously sometimes just not wanting to HEAR THOSE VOICES constantly? :lol:

 

That's kind of all or nothing thinking if you ask me.  Yes, if something new or usual has come up, then there's room for discussion.  If the usual routine isn't in place because of extenuating circumstances I can see the need for a short simple explanation.  If this is the usual routine and the usual tasks, then no, you can't possibly have a climate of endless discussion and negotiation without driving yourself crazy.   For each kid!? With each academic assignment and each chore!? No way.  If the kid negotiates infrequently, then I think that's fine.  If it's frequent, then they need to spend time learning to just freakin doing it and keep their thoughts to themselves .

 

Also, it's important to teach children that when they're speaking, they're demanding someone's attention.  It's OK to do that some and it's selfish and  rude to do that too much. How will their peers respond to that?  Avoidance and confrontation depending on their personalities.  How will an employer, college professor, drill sergeant, or spouse respond to that?  Not positively. They can start to learn those boundaries at home.

 

As for your examples, I wouldn't put up with any of that. I didn't see anything that was legitimate in those examples. I wouldn't classify children who interact like that as obedient.

 

 

[Lucy the Valiant]

Can you point out the correlation between decreased "discussing" and increased favor to them? (i.e., choose your battles, kid - if you pester mom needlessly, she's going to say no just because) :D

[EmseB]

He isn’t trying to be difficult or insolent or disobedient. They aren't even necessarily petitions. He isn’t even trying to be argumentative

 

 

Yes he is, and I'd say this line of thinking is where you're going wrong.  Just because he's not saying, "I won't do what you're asking," does not mean it's not disobedience.  He's learned an effective delaying tactic, and something that pushes mom's buttons, and I'd venture a guess that if you really examined things there are times where his arguing gets him his way, or at least makes him think he's in control of the situation.  He's clearly smart, testing out his arguing skills and boundaries.

 

I have one of those kids, and my DH was one of those kids.  Obedience in our house means right away, with a good attitude.  It means that even if mom is being completely illogical and you think your logic is superior, you still have to do what she asks without questions.

 

The rule in around here is generally that a "Yes, mom," with accompanying action is expected right away, and after that if there is genuine curiousity about why something is the way it is (not just excuses for not wanting to do something or delaying tactics), then they can ask the question.  Usually I don't get any questions after the fact because the actual interest was not in the answer, but in the delay and trying to get control of the situation.  At 8, I'd probably make taking away a privilege of some sort a consequence of that type of questioning, after a talk about first time obedience.  Also, it helps if your hubby is in earshot and reinforces the "Yes, mom," response when he hears questions start up. 

[MotherGoose]

My dd can do this. I have to shut it down with "Because I said so." And I refuse to discuss it further. Lots of times they KNOW deep down why, they are just arguing to be arguing. One thing that seems to be helping with the changes to the schedule for my dd is posting a schedule on the wall, by day and subject, that I can move around. I used masking tape but may switch to velcro. That way, if I know math is going to be short and I want to put Latin first, in your example, I can switch the subjects around on the wall before the day starts. I am trying to do this to discipline myself to plan in detail the week ahead to look for days like that, and also to adjust to make shorter days. It's a work in progress. But answering as many things in advance like that seems to help. But in the end, sometimes, you just need to be quiet and do what I said!!! :)

[idnib]

We had this problem.

 

I told DS that if we disagreed and he wanted to change my mind, he had to give me a summary of his reasoning in one sentence. I know that sounds harsh, but he was fine with it because I couched it in terms of writing and being able to summarize your points. It became like a game: how to communicate your best point(s) in the most succinct manner possible, using correct grammar.

 

Bonus for sneaking in homeschool!

 

I would then either give him an answer, or tell him to tell me more, if I was up for it.

 

Quoting myself to clarify:

 

I agree with the responses that came after mine. For household tasks and my requests, there's no questioning. The kids might remind me of something, like we're out of laundry detergent so they can't run a load, but otherwise they do what they're told the first time.

 

The disagreements I was referring to are respectful and more open for discussion, such as what we're going to do this weekend or what to listen to in the car. So if DS and I have different ideas of what to listen to in the car, he might formulate his best argument into one sentence: "We should listen to history because we're going to a concert tomorrow night and we'd get more out of it if we knew the background of that time period." Good argument, I turn off Bruce Springsteen.  :)

 

Not everything is open for discussion, even with well-crafted sentences. That would drive me crazy and I would probably raise kids who drove everyone else crazy as well. I'm doing everyone a service here.  ;)

[JustEm]

With the Latin one does your ds like schedules or get in  a rut when schedules aren't followed.  I can completely see having the same type of conversation with someone if they changed things up on my last minute. Being older I'd be able to verbalize why I was asking those questions better than your ds (assuming he has an issue with schedule change.)  Maybe in that situation he needed an explanation as to why things were different in order to feel secure.  The asking about his afternoon class is what sparked that thought for me because one change in a schedule could likely mean a change to the entire rest of the day and it would have thrown me off. 

 

No comment on the piano conversation.

 

With the sunglasses conversation I completely get the first part of it, where he puts the sunglasses back on the banister.  My dh's brain works this way.  If I ask him to do a specific thing and that specific thing ends up not needing to be done he doesn't notice that something very similar does need to be done.  He only notices after it is pointed out to him.  Its just the way his brain works when others give him orders.  When he thinks of things himself he plans it out and puts thought into it.  But when other people say things he hears the literal request and doesn't process any deviation to it.

 

 

What might work best for you in these situations is to explain your reasoning entirely after his first inquiry.  If he continues simply say this is the end of the discussion. If you'd like to discuss the issue more we can do so after XYZ has been done.

[melbotoast]

Following

[mamabear2three]

 

Example #3:

<I bumped the banister as I walked by with my arms full of laundry and knocked down DS’s sunglasses.>

Me: DS, please don’t put your sunglasses on top of the banister. They will get broken.

DS: Actually, those aren’t my sunglasses. They are DD’s.

Me: Ok. Please pick them up please.

<He picks them up and puts them BACK on the banister!>

 

In my house, the conversation would end right here - with a stern look from me and an apology from my daughter followed by her immediate obedience.

 

Me: DS, please do not put those on the banister. Why would you put those on the banister when I JUST said not to put them there?

DS: You said not to put MY sunglasses on the banister. But these are DD’s.

Me: Are you seriously saying you thought it was okay then to put DD’s sunglasses on the banister when I told you not to put yours on the banister?

DS: Oh. Hmmm. <giggles to himself> I guess not. <He grabs the sunglasses and runs upstairs.>

Me: <as he is running upstairs> Please put them down here in the coat closet. <I hear him toss the sunglasses into DD’s room, on the FLOOR!>

Me: *sigh*

<DS runs back downstairs>

Me: Go get them and put them in the coat closet.

DS: I don’t have them.

Me: That is why I said, ‘Go get them,’ first. I said, ‘GO GET THEM and put them in the coat closet.’

DS: Oh. I put them in DD’s room.

Me: I KNOW. GO GET THEM and put them in the coat closet.

DS: Oh, ok.

 

Is it me, or is that just WAY.too.much unnecessary conversation??

 

I’m utterly exhausted.

 

Honestly, my opinion is that it's not just conversation - you're not teaching him that his voice matters in this example, you're allowing him to be disrespectful. 

 

The conversation in my house that wears me out is the constant questions - my daughter circles a topic with question until I've had quite enough and tell her that the conversation is over, please go find something else to do. 

[Mrs. A]

In my house that would get snapped off at "please put those sunglasses away". I didn't ask whose they were, or phrase it as a question. That's a definite "yes mommy", since we all have a responsibility to keep the house picked up and minimally habitable ;)

 

The Latin book would get the same treatment, and consequences for continued arguing. 

 

 

 

 

Example of type of consequence used for continued arguing, pretty please? 

[Farrar]

There are a couple of ways to approach this behavior. I'm not totally sure where the OP really stands because on the one hand, she talked a LOT (from my POV anyway) about obedience, which simply isn't something I value in and of itself. If the goal is really do what mom says end of story then I'll agree with the other posters that she doesn't seem to have achieved that goal.

 

But the OP also talked about children deserving to know the why behind what they do, about the value of questioning and dialogue between her and the kids as part of their relationship. That's more like where I come at it from a parent. I guess what I don't understand is in the examples above, if you really thought they were asking legitimate questions why you never answered them and instead just repeated yourself? The third example is a little different, but in the first two, why didn't you just say, "I know, but I decided we'd do Latin because it's short and will let us get to lunch sooner" (or whatever the reason was) and for the second, why not say, "Yes, musicians interpret and make changes to the music once they've mastered it, but you haven't gotten there yet so you need to play it as written for now." Wouldn't giving *reasons* have cut off the conversation sooner? If you value them asking questions, why not actually engage in the questions? I don't get it. In the third example, your ds was being a bit of a smarta** (and I say that with affection as someone who finds this sort of lawyering among kids sort of amusing), but depending on his age, he may or may not have meant it - I mean, if he's eightish or younger, I think that's concrete thinking is just par for the course for some kids. It's obvious to all of us that he needed to do it differently, but maybe not to him.

 

Look, I may just be coming from a different planet with this stuff, but I'm happy with my relationship with my kids. They basically trust me and when I say it's important to do something they do it - they don't lie to me, they don't seem to have a cruel bone in their bodies, they tell me about their deep dark moments and questions, they trust me. They're usually pretty polite and say thank you and help strangers and don't squabble with each other much. And I see those types of conversations, where I explain myself, where I treat their opinions and questions as important, where I respect their need to know and their sense of routine (as in the math and Latin), their curiosity (as in the music - what a great question he was asking, right?), and their sense of fairness (to a kid, why should I have to pick up sibling's stuff can feel really important in terms of justice) as essential to making that relationship and building that trust. And while sometimes it's annoying and it requires that I deal with them being kids who don't see what seems obvious to me, it's worth it to have those little moments.

[Joker]

I have to admit that I saw your examples as more of just normal discussion here and nothing that makes anyone upset or angry. Your third example would have frustrated me and had me shaking my head but dds and I would have shared a laugh over it and moved on. I have two great dds, 12 and 14, who are polite and kind. We talk and question a lot. I guess disobedient and argumentative mean something very different here. They have been each of those things but the examples in the OP aren't something I would label either.

[Tranquility7]

Ok, thanks for all the great responses. I think several of you are right about obedience. We are simply getting too lax. It is so hard to discipline them when they are having cheerful attitudes and seem like they are just being chatty. It is relatively simple to deal with complaining, whining, irritation, etc.! But delayed obedience with a cheerful chatty spirit – especially when the disobedience is kind of “on the line†– it is just so much harder for me to recognize and deal with that. And it is *really* hard for me to say “no questioning†since it makes me feel like such a tyrant…

 

Also, I can be quite scatterbrained and so I frequently make a plan in the AM and then change it as things go along, and I *do* forget to look at the clock and I *do* sometimes ask DS to remind me of this or that, and so all of that combines to practically *invite* the kid to question me. I’m just kind of laid back about daily details.  And for heaven’s sake, half the time DS is RIGHT, and I HAVE forgotten that I meant to do XYZ or that ABC was happening today or whatever! Gah! I just don’t know how to change myself. :001_rolleyes: *sigh* It isn’t that I am disorganized; I am actually a fairly organized person (and extremely organized in a strategic larger picture sort of way); I just don’t like rigidity in the daily details and such.

 

And by the way, I really feel compelled to defend DS a bit in the sunglasses exchange, because I’m afraid it appeared as much more disobedient than I think it actually was. Our sunglasses always stay in our car, never in the house, so they didn’t have anywhere to “belongâ€. I originally asked DS to “pick them up†(meaning it literally only, not in the “put these way†sense) simply because I couldn’t see my feet because my arms were full, and I didn’t want to step on them. I wasn’t telling him to put them away at that point, b/c I couldn’t think of a good place to tell him to put them; I just wanted him to literally pick them up off the floor (which he did). Then when I did finally tell him to put them in the hall closet, he was already halfway upstairs and I knew he couldn’t hear me over his noisy shoes on the steps (I tend to have a soft voice which I practically never raise, and definitely did not today (except in my *heart* multiple times, LOL!!)). I knew there was no way he heard me over the clatter he was making on the steps(I’d barely been able to hear myself!), which is why I didn’t consider it disobedience when he tossed them in DD’s room (other than the fact that it was thoughtless to toss them on the *floor*). Just trying to clarify, because I realized I explained it poorly.

 

Anyway, thanks again for all the great input. I've read it all, but I'm going to reread it all again when I have more energy. Tomorrow is a new day and I’m going to work at nipping this stuff in the bud a bit more.

[kbutton]

There are a couple of ways to approach this behavior. I'm not totally sure where the OP really stands because on the one hand, she talked a LOT (from my POV anyway) about obedience, which simply isn't something I value in and of itself. If the goal is really do what mom says end of story then I'll agree with the other posters that she doesn't seem to have achieved that goal.

 

But the OP also talked about children deserving to know the why behind what they do, about the value of questioning and dialogue between her and the kids as part of their relationship. That's more like where I come at it from a parent. I guess what I don't understand is in the examples above, if you really thought they were asking legitimate questions why you never answered them and instead just repeated yourself? The third example is a little different, but in the first two, why didn't you just say, "I know, but I decided we'd do Latin because it's short and will let us get to lunch sooner" (or whatever the reason was) and for the second, why not say, "Yes, musicians interpret and make changes to the music once they've mastered it, but you haven't gotten there yet so you need to play it as written for now." Wouldn't giving *reasons* have cut off the conversation sooner? If you value them asking questions, why not actually engage in the questions? I don't get it. In the third example, your ds was being a bit of a smarta** (and I say that with affection as someone who finds this sort of lawyering among kids sort of amusing), but depending on his age, he may or may not have meant it - I mean, if he's eightish or younger, I think that's concrete thinking is just par for the course for some kids. It's obvious to all of us that he needed to do it differently, but maybe not to him.

 

Look, I may just be coming from a different planet with this stuff, but I'm happy with my relationship with my kids. They basically trust me and when I say it's important to do something they do it - they don't lie to me, they don't seem to have a cruel bone in their bodies, they tell me about their deep dark moments and questions, they trust me. They're usually pretty polite and say thank you and help strangers and don't squabble with each other much. And I see those types of conversations, where I explain myself, where I treat their opinions and questions as important, where I respect their need to know and their sense of routine (as in the math and Latin), their curiosity (as in the music - what a great question he was asking, right?), and their sense of fairness (to a kid, why should I have to pick up sibling's stuff can feel really important in terms of justice) as essential to making that relationship and building that trust. And while sometimes it's annoying and it requires that I deal with them being kids who don't see what seems obvious to me, it's worth it to have those little moments.

 

I kind of agree with this, though in my case, my kids have some exceptionalities that make them really concrete and/or get stuck, rigid, and fixated, and it doesn't respond to strict methods to curb the flow. I would love to be able to come up with some concise responses to my kids, such as responding about the Latin making lunch happen sooner--it's often what they need to hear in order to get unstuck. Unfortunately, it's just mom overwhelm with the number of things my kids come up with in a day (serious introvert here also). DH also works weird hours with LONG shifts, so I really don't get much of a break from it. At some point, it's just a flood of stuff all day, every day, and it stops making sense. I just hear "lalalala, delay, dismantle, dissipate Mom's mental energy."

 

Just sharing that in case that's what happening with the OP. I like the idea of giving tokens of some kind, and when they are gone, they need to roll with things and not ask questions. I used that in the grocery store a couple of times, and it helped a bit.

[Tranquility7]

There are a couple of ways to approach this behavior. I'm not totally sure where the OP really stands because on the one hand, she talked a LOT (from my POV anyway) about obedience, which simply isn't something I value in and of itself. If the goal is really do what mom says end of story then I'll agree with the other posters that she doesn't seem to have achieved that goal.

 

But the OP also talked about children deserving to know the why behind what they do, about the value of questioning and dialogue between her and the kids as part of their relationship. That's more like where I come at it from a parent. I guess what I don't understand is in the examples above, if you really thought they were asking legitimate questions why you never answered them and instead just repeated yourself? The third example is a little different, but in the first two, why didn't you just say, "I know, but I decided we'd do Latin because it's short and will let us get to lunch sooner" (or whatever the reason was) and for the second, why not say, "Yes, musicians interpret and make changes to the music once they've mastered it, but you haven't gotten there yet so you need to play it as written for now." Wouldn't giving *reasons* have cut off the conversation sooner? If you value them asking questions, why not actually engage in the questions? I don't get it.

 

My goal is a balance. On one hand, obedience is important to me, but I’m not always right. I forget stuff all the time, I misspeak, I contradict myself, whatever… So in those cases it is helpful when they question me. Also, I don’t want blind obedience, I want obedience in the context of love and trust, and I believe that love and trust is built through teaching and training and conversing and explaining and all of that. But on the other hand, your examples imply that a sentence of explanation is all it would take to “cut off the conversation soonerâ€, but experience shows me the absolute opposite of that. I give a reason, and instead of moving on, they ask more and more and more questions.

 

Secondly, none of these questions or situations are unique. It isn’t as though we haven’t had nearly identical conversations in the past already, particularly with the piano and Latin questions. Just last week at his piano lesson we discussed the discrepancies with his teacher, and she went on and on about the publisher and musical interpretation and the different recordings available and blah, blah, blah. DS remembers ALL of that (unlike me, he seldom forgets anything) – that is why he is making so much conversation about it. He knows there is not a “right†answer to how it should be played. I just want to get piano practice DONE because we have too much else yet to do today and I don’t have the time or energy to sit here and talk about these three measures of music with him when there is absolutely nothing new to say about them, and we can reach no conclusion until we can ask Mrs. G next week at lesson! So just stop talking and play them the way they are written!

 

Lastly, honestly, I simply do NOT have the energy for endless conversation about every little thing all day long. Sometimes not even for a short answer. This is not something I can change about myself. Believe me, I have tried and tried and tried my entire life. I am a severe introvert and there are SO MANY thoughts floating around in my head that never see the light of day simply because I literally cannot get them out. I cannot put the words together to express myself. This happens to me almost daily. On rough days (like today was) I just flat out run out of energy to talk, and especially to converse. I just can’t get any more words out. It isn’t a choice, it’s a reality. And if I force myself to get words out, I will invariably end up saying things that might be close but not really what I mean to say, but they are the only words I can find. And then that will cause a miscommunication, and then the other person (like DS) will say, “But you said….,†thereby forcing me to try to explain myself even MORE, when that is the exact *opposite* of what I am actually capable of doing at that moment. Doesn’t matter how much I might want to.

 

My husband knows that when I answering him in exactly the same way over and over again, what I am really saying is, “Ask me later, because I cannot get any more words out of my head right now.â€

 

In the third example, your ds was being a bit of a smarta** (and I say that with affection as someone who finds this sort of lawyering among kids sort of amusing), but depending on his age, he may or may not have meant it - I mean, if he's eightish or younger, I think that's concrete thinking is just par for the course for some kids. It's obvious to all of us that he needed to do it differently, but maybe not to him.

 

He is 8, and he really was not being a smarta$$ at all, just literal (and a bit airheaded, which he inherited from me).

 

Look, I may just be coming from a different planet with this stuff, but I'm happy with my relationship with my kids. They basically trust me and when I say it's important to do something they do it - they don't lie to me, they don't seem to have a cruel bone in their bodies, they tell me about their deep dark moments and questions, they trust me. They're usually pretty polite and say thank you and help strangers and don't squabble with each other much. And I see those types of conversations, where I explain myself, where I treat their opinions and questions as important, where I respect their need to know and their sense of routine (as in the math and Latin), their curiosity (as in the music - what a great question he was asking, right?), and their sense of fairness (to a kid, why should I have to pick up sibling's stuff can feel really important in terms of justice) as essential to making that relationship and building that trust. And while sometimes it's annoying and it requires that I deal with them being kids who don't see what seems obvious to me, it's worth it to have those little moments.

 

The problem isn't that it is annoying. The problem is that I literally cannot do it. We have TONS of conversations. I'm not saying I want to *never* converse. I just want to not have to converse *constantly*. I just.can't.do.it.

 

Before I was a wife and mom, I was a software developer. I'd work all day writing code and then get home and stay up until 4am continuing to write my code. It was fun and energizing to me. But give me actual people to talk to, and I'm wiped out after two hours. Don't get me wrong - I LOVE my life now, and would never want my old life back. I adore my children and my DH, and I am so thankful that we can homeschool. But this neverending togetherness aspect of it is intensely difficult for me. I feel like a bad mom for not being up for endless discussions with my kids about every little thing. But bad mom or not, I just can't do it. But I'm also not a fan of the authoritarian "just because I said so" route... and so I'm just looking for ideas.  And maybe some other moms who understand.

[LibraryLover]

Hsing can be challenging. For. Sure.  I'm going to assume your 8 year old is doing most of the asking/engaging/chatting, since, I'm guessing, your  6 mos old doesn't ask lots of questions, and the 4 year old is more about sensory exploration and play.   :) The burden is on us because we are all our children have(for many) during a day.  We are it,  There is no PE teacher, no principal, no music teacher, blah blah blah.  Kids talk. They talk a lot!  Some kids talk even more! They are thinking every single thing through.  Maybe there are ways to redirect? Maybe go to the library a couple of times a week so he can ask the librarian questions/book recommendations?  A museum to ask questions of a docent? Coop? Y? Art class?  I don't know that this is a discipline issue so much as a need to engage in discussion and the processing of ideas. In the Reggio Emilia approach to education, discussion and search is key. Teachers document children's ideas, questions and observations. It started in Italy after WWII,  but has spread across the globe. Asking, probing, engaging/pushing discussion is normal. But it's exhausting for adults at times.

[Jaybee]

This is really a little side issue, and if it isn't helpful, just ignore. :) But just to give you one less area of interaction--can you just leave the piano practice issues to his teacher? Can you just require that he practice a certain amount of time, and if he practices it wrong all week, then his teacher can deal with it at his next lesson, i.e., completely outsource piano and remove yourself from that equation? I took piano lessons for 13 years, and my mom never sat with me while I practiced, or even made any comments except when there was too long a pause during the practice session (usually because I was reading between songs. ;) ) I still became accomplished, as do many, many music students who never have parental input other than the rules that practice must happen. 

[Χά�ων]

Sounds like the Op has normal kids who like to talk all the time. :)

 

Frustrating, yes. But all part of the learning process. It does sound like your DS is rather literal but so is my son so I could see myself having those same conversations. I have learned to explain common sense stuff when I give directions. So for the sunglasses, I would have said, "Sunglasses do not go on the banister, all sunglasses go in the closet, please go put Dd sunglasses and put them in the closet for her, I am sure she will appreciate it"

 

I found if I include more detail in my first sentence it cuts down on chatter. Though I still forget and go through the motions.

[Alice]

I think you might actually find that you have to deal with less of these conversations if you did answer them more directly. I hear you about being an introvert, but the reality is that you also are homeschooling with three kids. They are going to need to interact and ask you things. It doesn't seem quite fair to them teo expect them to not ask questions because you prefer less conversations.

 

I'm also a total introvert so I do get some of how you feel but it seems to me that you're making it worse by creating a situation where they keep asking. Either you can institute an "obedience first" kind of attitude and allow no questioning....or you can try and make the questioning less. It seems to me the way to do that is to make it more efficient so they get the answer they are looking for. 

 

So for your first example....

You: Get our your Latin book. 

Kid: But we haven't done Math yet.

You: Yes, I know, but since Math is light this week I think we'll focus on Latin and give it more of a priority today. 

 

With my own kids, I also feel free to stop them if the questioning becomes an obvious delaying tactic or if I'm just tired. But I'm honest with them. "Ok, I've answered your question, now you just need to get your work done."  or "Hey kids, I'm having a tough day. I need you guys to just work quickly and get it all done and then we can all rest this afternoon." or whatever. 

 

And if you want a laugh check out Question Boy Meets Little Miss Know-It-All by Peter Catalanatto which is my new all time favorite picture book. :) 
 

 

 

[EmseB]

I think you might actually find that you have to deal with less of these conversations if you did answer them more directly. I hear you about being an introvert, but the reality is that you also are homeschooling with three kids. They are going to need to interact and ask you things. It doesn't seem quite fair to them teo expect them to not ask questions because you prefer less conversations.

 

I'm also a total introvert so I do get some of how you feel but it seems to me that you're making it worse by creating a situation where they keep asking. Either you can institute an "obedience first" kind of attitude and allow no questioning....or you can try and make the questioning less. It seems to me the way to do that is to make it more efficient so they get the answer they are looking for.

 

After reading the OP's latest and then this one, I would say that despite my previous post of taking a hard line (which I would in some of her examples), conversationally in the case of the Latin example I probably would state my reasoning if asked as long as the kid was asking while he was taking out his Latin book.  It's the "But..." and the "Oh look it's lunchtime..." and "Oh I have to go to the bathroom..." that to me are deliberate cases of stalling and delaying.

 

To me it's obvious from her examples what the kid is doing, but maybe it's only because I have a kid who would engage me in arguments all day long about why and how I do things.  And it is a tough line because usually he's not being petulant or whiny or overtly defiant or anything.  He's just asking.  And asking, and asking, and double checking, and seeing if we can't do it this way instead, and on and on. :)  And, like the OP I can excuse his questioning because I can sometimes be rather absentminded.  It's just that usually I can tell by the timing of the questioning and the line it's going down whether or not he's really interested in an answer.

[stripe]

I also found the Suzuki question interesting because when I took Suzuki piano, my teacher was very emphatic that I follow the recording. So I thought his question showed he was paying very close attention to the recording, which I admire because I never did and drove my teacher nuts.

 

The interest in preserving the routine question is also interesting. It seems to suggest your kids like regularity and schedules and that changes in the routine confuse them a little. I wouldn't personally tell my kids not to use the toilet if they said they had to go. And if they're hungry, I'd just stop for a meal. But my kids all need to gain or maintain their weight so ....

 

I don't consider this arguing, but talking. The idea of a "do this, son"/"yes, ma'am" type of interaction just feels cold to me. My kids talk constantly but I think ultimately it's beneficial. I think you need to change your mindset, and when you make changes, be ready to tell them why.

[EmseB]

I don't consider this arguing, but talking. The idea of a "do this, son"/"yes, ma'am" type of interaction just feels cold to me. My kids talk constantly but I think ultimately it's beneficial. I think you need to change your mindset, and when you make changes, be ready to tell them why.

 

I think maybe you're imagining things to be more austere than they are when you're seeing the "yes, mom" posts.  My kids talk constantly as well, and I entertain a lot of questions every day.  We do even have meal breaks. ;)  There's also time where we just buckle down and get our work done, even if we want to nag mom incessently about how she wants to be done and why and why not do it this way and I'm hot and oh now that you want me to do math I need to have a snack or I am just going to perish before your eyes, can't you see the humanity, mother???  :) :) 

 

It's easy to see the difference between that stuff and genuine curiousity and questions in person.  It's harder to describe over the internet, and I admit it probably does read like some sort of boot camp.  But everyone around here gets to talk.  A lot.

[wendyroo]

DH and I have decided on a middle of the road approach to "Yes, Mom/Dad" obedience.  The only time we require that immediate response is when we say a child's name to get his attention.  Whether right next to him, across the room or across the house, when I call, "Peter..." or "Elliot...", I expect to promptly hear, "Yes, Mom/Mama?"

 

At first DH was opposed to requiring the "Yes, Mom/Dad", but I asked him to listen to the adults around him and see if responding to one's name with "Yes?" was really that unreasonable.  Almost everyone says it; it is the polite way of acknowledging that you hear someone call you.  Peter calls "Mom?" about 3 kabillion times a day, and each time I respond, "Yes, Peter?"  Training him to respond the same way is simply common courtesy and preparing him to interact politely in society.

 

So, if I say:

"Peter, please go get dressed."

and Peter starts to fillibuster:

"Mom, did you know that I have three shirts with dinosaurs.  Could I wear one of those today?  No, I want to wear my guitar shirt...I think I left it out in the sandbox.  What day is today?  If it is a T day I want to wear a t-shirt..."

 

Then I break in with a kind, but firm: "Peter..." and I wait until he replies, "Yes, Mom?"  After I am sure I have his attention (rather than his mind still being off on a tangent), then I redirect him back to the task at hand: "Peter, you laid out your clothes last night, and you may not rummage through your dresser to choose something different now because we need to leave soon for speech therapy.  If you are going to want your guitar shirt tomorrow, I suggest you make sure it gets into the hamper as soon as you are dressed.  Now, I don't want any more discussion, and I want to see you hustle to get dressed like I asked."

 

Wendy

 

[ElizaG]

I also found the Suzuki question interesting because when I took Suzuki piano, my teacher was very emphatic that I follow the recording. So I thought his question showed he was paying very close attention to the recording, which I admire because I never did and drove my teacher nuts.

 

(...)

 

I don't consider this arguing, but talking. The idea of a "do this, son"/"yes, ma'am" type of interaction just feels cold to me. My kids talk constantly but I think ultimately it's beneficial. I think you need to change your mindset, and when you make changes, be ready to tell them why.

 

I don't get this... are you're saying that it's appropriate for a child to respond to his mother's words as if they were a mechanical recording of piano music?  Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but that sounds much, much colder to me than any sort of traditional "yes, ma'am" exchange. 

 

OP, you wrote:

 

" Also, I don’t want blind obedience, I want obedience in the context of love and trust, and I believe that love and trust is built through teaching and training and conversing and explaining and all of that."

 

I think you might want to unpack this a bit more.   My sense is that love and trust between family members are primarily built through types of interactions that you're not even describing here.  

 

For example, in a previous thread that pretty much went the way this one seems to be going (i.e., with some polarization between "obedience types" and "explaining types"), I suggested that the parent do some reading about the theory behind RDI.   Not because I thought her child had ASD, but because this approach focuses on educating parents about the importance of dynamic non-verbal communication and mentoring relationships, which seem to be falling apart in many of today's families.    Especially when the family members tend to be more logically and verbally inclined, which is the case for many of us on these boards.

 

It seems to me that the stronger this mentoring relationship is, the less likely the child is to raise objections unless they're really necessary.    

 

It's not a question of stifling them, but of helping them develop trust in the adult as an authority figure (i.e., not just as a nice or smart person), as well as an intuitive sense of when the circumstances call for the child to step outside that role.

[stripe]

 

I don't get this... are you're saying that it's appropriate for a child to respond to his mother's words as if they were a mechanical recording of piano music?  Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but that sounds much, much colder to me than any sort of traditional "yes, ma'am" exchange. 

I don't even understand what that means. I certainly never said any such thing because it doesn't make any sense to me.

 

In the first post in this thread, the OP said this was a sample conversation between her and her son:

 

Example #2:

During piano practice:

<as he is playing a new piece in his Suzuki book>

Me: You should put a lift between those two phrases there.

DS: But that isn’t how the recording sounds.

Me: I’m not commenting on how the recording sounds. I’m saying you need a lift because it is clearly written that way.

DS: Yes, but doesn’t the recording have them all slurred together?

Me: I am not commenting on the recording <though I was quite sure they are not slurred on the recording, but I didn’t want to argue that point>. I’m saying that Mrs. G. didn’t write on your music to continue that slur, and so you should play with a lift between, since it is written that way.

 

I was referring to the Suzuki method of having students listen to a recording of a piano piece being played and playing "by ear," and the disconnect her son had heard between the recording he had of the piece and the written music / notations from the piano teacher on the score.

 

That's what I meant when I said, "I took Suzuki piano, my teacher was very emphatic that I follow the recording. So I thought his question showed he was paying very close attention to the recording, which I admire because I never did and drove my teacher nuts."

 

I think maybe you're imagining things to be more austere than they are when you're seeing the "yes, mom" posts. 

I wasn't actually suggesting you wanted something that austere! But taking it to an extreme.

[ElizaG]

Okay, I somehow managed to totally miss the OP's Suzuki reference!   I thought you were making some sort of analogy with the way he responded so literally about the sunglasses (or some other incident).   I'm relieved that you weren't.  

 

Sorry!  :tongue_smilie:

 

[ETA:  I've just been reading about the influence of behaviorism in education in the 1910s-20s, which might be why I read it that way.   Unfortunately, it seems as if some of those folks might actually have said that sort of thing.   Strange times, and very cold indeed, from the sound of it.]

[IdahoHomeschooler]

The problem isn't that it is annoying. The problem is that I literally cannot do it. We have TONS of conversations. I'm not saying I want to *never* converse. I just want to not have to converse *constantly*. I just.can't.do.it.

 

Before I was a wife and mom, I was a software developer. I'd work all day writing code and then get home and stay up until 4am continuing to write my code. It was fun and energizing to me. But give me actual people to talk to, and I'm wiped out after two hours. Don't get me wrong - I LOVE my life now, and would never want my old life back. I adore my children and my DH, and I am so thankful that we can homeschool. But this neverending togetherness aspect of it is intensely difficult for me. I feel like a bad mom for not being up for endless discussions with my kids about every little thing. But bad mom or not, I just can't do it. But I'm also not a fan of the authoritarian "just because I said so" route... and so I'm just looking for ideas. And maybe some other moms who understand.

 

I'm a strong introvert, and my daughter is an extrovert. She almost never.shuts.up. I sympathize with you. It IS hard on an introvert to have a child with that constant need to interact. Having to answer and explain every little thing just drains me. I need time to think and recharge throughout the day. I have had to just be very honest with my daughter that she sometimes just needs to be quiet and do as I ask, or I get grumpy. Unfortunately, nobody else is going to meet my needs, so it is up to me to do so. Is there a time of day when smaller children are napping, that you can enforce a 'quiet time' for older children? I'm not sure how to get a child to talk less (if only! Lol), but it may be more tolerable if you give yourself some time to recharge. I know that I find it more frustrating if I don't get any down time.

[Maela]

I'm enjoying reading through all the ideas/opinions in this thread because I have the exact same problem! I don't want to not listen to their (my kids') ideas, but sometimes I get so tired of explaining and discussing each and every decision I make!

 

I think I might try the token idea first.

[Paige]

I think it all sounds very normal. It's annoying, but I don't read any disrespect or deliberate annoyance in your child's questions. I think maybe he is reaching a new stage of development and you have not adjusted to it. You have 2 younger children who are still very much in the stage where there is little point in trying to reason or explain things to them. Your older child, however, deserves to have a higher level of conversation. The way you speak to him in your description seems more in line with what we'd use with a very young child. I suspect your DC would respond better if you spoke to him as if he were capable of understanding more. Why wouldn't he be confused if you are skipping math? He's able to reason that things are different. He's clearly confused about why the recording and the written music don't match. Why not pause and explain what you are thinking and why you are asking him to play it one way. The thing with the sunglasses sounds like typical literal non-intuitive and not interested in whatever you are interested in child behavior. 

 

I get it. I'm an introvert too and my oldest can talk as much as any kid. I institute quiet time during the days when nobody is allowed to talk around me unless it's serious because I just need a break. I agree with the person above- if you give your DC more information the first time they ask, you'll have less questions. 

[HS Mom in NC]

Suzuki music lessons are built on ear training.  The child is instructed to mimic the recording as perfectly and exactly as humanly possible every single time in every single song and every single lesson. Children typically are instructed to listen to a recoding of that particular song they're working on about 50 times day.  The parent is also expected to attend the lesson and listen to what the teacher is telling the child every single time so the parent can look for the things in every practice session that the teacher points out in the lesson and knows how to correct them. Some Suzuki teachers (not all) require the parent to also get the same instrument for him/herself and take the lesson along side the child. BTDT.

 

Based on the description I read and how I think I understand it, it seems to me the OP either didn't attend the lesson, the child and parent are hearing the recording differently, the teacher is breaking from protocol telling the child to play it differently than the recording, or there is an error on the sheet music.  There's no way to sort all that out without having been to lesson. There does, however, have to be some final say with the parent. 

 

If a parent has said explicitly to do something in practice that the kid thinks contradicts the teacher (which may or may not be the case here) I think the kid has to suck it up and do it the way the parent said to with parent prepared to eat crow and apologize if she tells the kid something that was actually contrary to what the teacher said.   That just happens in real life.  There is miscommunication, misunderstanding and other little things that pop now and then in situations like these, and unless the child has been taught to defer to what the parent says, you're inviting endless debate and discussion over nothing that really matters. The parent really needs to call the teacher to clarify, but often the teacher can't get back to the parent right away, so something has to happen so the practice time isn't completely wasted.  Is it better to get it right the way the teacher said from the beginning?  Yes, but is it the end of the freakin' world if the kid puts a lift in it until they hear back from the teacher or until they go to the next lesson?  No. It's easily corrected so let's not decide a kid can sit and argue about it and bring practice time to a screeching halt or continue in a long debate about just putting lift in it for heaven's sake.

 

I think some parents are paralyzed by fear of not getting every exact little detail perfectly in order and they unintentionally teach their kids to fuss and freeze over little mistakes that even if made are just not a big deal.  If you think it's OK for the kid to not pick up the glasses because you said "your" and they weren't his, then I think you and your child are prone to this and need to work on not getting hung up or paralyzed over an unimportant detail. People prone to hyper focusing on details tend to think like this. It's common among detail oriented people too. Aslo, kids are prone to do this to stall.  If it's neurosurgery or computer software, yes, every little tiny detail matters a lot and you can't go messing it up because the consequences could be anywhere from significant to catastrophic.   If it's a lift in a kid's music practice, it's not so important to get it exactly right because nothing that really matters in riding on it.

 

Also, let me point out that if sunglasses always go in the car because they don't have a home in the house, then they do have a home-in the car.  Around here, I don't usually tell kids to pick something up just to have it be anywhere other than the surface it's on.  I use the term "Pick it up" to mean "Pick it up and put it where it belongs."  After they have a handful of times, "Pick it up" should be understood to include the "and put it away where it belongs" part without having to say so.  If they haven't figured that out yet, one simple explanation should suffice among neurotypical children.  When I tell the kids, "Unload the dishwasher" pretending they didn't know I meant to put them where they belong isn't going to fly around here because when have they ever been allowed to unload clean dishes onto the counter?  Unless a child has diagnosed mental processing problem or something like that, I don't think there's any legitimate reason at all to accept an excuse like, "Well, you just said unload the dishes.  You never said to put them away."

 

If you told them what to do when you knew they couldn't hear you, it's up to you to immediately do what it takes so they can hear.  You may have to walk back up the stairs and clarify.  Just because they couldn't hear you doesn't mean they get a free pass and whatever impulse they have about throwing breakable things is OK while you shrug your shoulders.   We all make mistakes about how or when we say something, so we have to go back up the stairs, yell louder than we're comfortable with or do whatever we have to make it work. 

 

Throwing things around isn't something that's allowed around here.  Does your child honestly think it's OK to throw other people's breakable things on the floor?  Has this been the norm in your house?  Probably not.  I bet there have been discussions in the past about taking care of things.  If your child has been told that he may treat breakable things roughly and "just throw that anywhere" is your policy both stated and modeled, then he's off the hook for now and you need to change your policy for the future.   Otherwise, it's time to have a discussion about big idea principles that have been taught about how we treat things and how we treat other people's things.  Just because it's not in his or your nature to go to general principles right away, doesn't mean you both never have to do this. It's usually a good place to start.

[stripe]

I think some parents are paralyzed by fear of not getting every exact little detail perfectly in order and they unintentionally teach their kids to fuss and freeze over little mistakes that even if made are just not a big deal.  If you think it's OK for the kid to not pick up the glasses because you said "your" and they weren't his, then I think you and your child are prone to this and need to work on not getting hung up or paralyzed over an unimportant detail. People prone to hyper focusing on details tend to think like this. It's common among detail oriented people too.

And among lawyers. Steer the kid to law school. Or to a career in copy editing or computer programming. This is not a joke. There is a positive outlet for such detailed analysis of words. Being such a person, and coming from a family of such people, I prefer to see it as a highly desirable skill, not something that must be stamped out of me. ;) I've had to teach people to pay attention to detail, and it's very, very hard to learn.

 

Also -- while it shouldn't mean that someone is constantly arguing over every detail, it is sometimes too much to expect another person to understand what someone meant when that isn't, in fact, what was said.  The son's initial clarification of the owner of the glasses is not random argumentation because he was being told not to put his glasses there in the future, when what the OP really wanted was for the pair of glasses that was there to be put away now. But because she said, 

Me: DS, please don’t put your sunglasses on top of the banister. They will get broken.

it was quite relevant for him to say

DS: Actually, those aren’t my sunglasses. They are DD’s.

So I think the son is frustrating his mother, but sometimes her phrasing opens things up to debate. I think she should make her expectations clearer, and maybe changes need to be articulated more clearly, because when things aren't as they expect, the kids seem to be at a loss, and this is causing a lot of extraneous conversation/discussion.

[AK_Mom4]

Hi tranquility!

 

Stop beating yourself up! You keep blaming yourself - "I have a quiet voice", "I didn't speak clearly", "I can't get the right words out". You've got chatty, talkative kids and you're not a chatty talkative person. That's perfectly ok and this is not your fault. there isn't a single one of us on this board that has not misspoke or forgotten something.

 

Embrace the silence. Develop The Look if you can - the one where you just stare at the kid while you mentally count to ten and formulate your response. Your response MIGHT be to answer his question. Or it might just be to say "I am waiting for you to do as I asked".

 

My two older kids could argue the legs off a donkey. The key for me is to pause before I respond. Break up the rhythm of the banter that they so enjoy and feed off and think about exactly what I want to say.

[Farrar]

I'm still just stuck on the fact that in none of those interactions did she ever actually give reasons to the kids. Tranquility, I get that you think if you give a reason that it will just lead to more questions - what a PP called "filibustering." But you have to make a basic decision - either you want it to be a "Do this because I say so!" "Yes, Ma'am!" exchange or you want to give reasons. I think it's hard to have it both ways. And if filibustering starts, *then* you cut it off. You don't presuppose it's coming. You take the kids at their word that they really want to know why. And you think to yourself, good for them for thinking about the why behind things and don't take it personally. The other piece is that you can't think, this is all such minor stuff - I want them to ask why about things that are really *important* but to just trust me on this piddling stuff. But to them, this *is* the important stuff. To kids, their routine, their creative work, their chores, that's like their whole world and you have to understand that.

[HS Mom in NC]

And among lawyers. Steer the kid to law school. Or to a career in copy editing or computer programming. This is not a joke. There is a positive outlet for such detailed analysis of words. Being such a person, and coming from a family of such people, I prefer to see it as a highly desirable skill, not something that must be stamped out of me.

 

I wasn't suggesting "stamping it out" of the child. That's very melodramatic, extreme language.   I was suggesting teaching the right time and place for such things.  My husband is a computer programmer and suffered socially because, like many people like that, he had a hard time with when it was appropriate.  Sure, it's funny on Big Bang Theory, but what people say about those who have simply never learned to focus on the big picture over a few minor inaccuracies when it's called for isn't flattering. People who struggle with this have a hard time dealing with others.

 

 

;) I've had to teach people to pay attention to detail, and it's very, very hard to learn.

 

Anyone already prone to naturally focusing on details doesn't need extra lessons in it.  We need to work on what doesn't come naturally and what causes problems, so this kid and mom need to work on transitioning to the big picture when it's appropriate. We can't all just live on every impulse we have.  School needs to get done with mom's sanity in tact and so do the chores.

 

Also -- while it shouldn't mean that someone is constantly arguing over every detail, it is sometimes too much to expect another person to understand what someone meant when that isn't, in fact, what was said.  The son's initial clarification of the owner of the glasses is not random argumentation because he was being told not to put his glasses there in the future, when what the OP really wanted was for the pair of glasses that was there to be put away now. But because she said, 

Me: DS, please don’t put your sunglasses on top of the banister. They will get broken.

it was quite relevant for him to say

DS: Actually, those aren’t my sunglasses. They are DD’s.

So I think the son is frustrating his mother, but sometimes her phrasing opens things up to debate.

 

Actually, it's not.  Don't tell me that a child that literal and supposedly logical thinks it's OK to put HIS glasses on the banister because HIS glasses are less susceptible to being broken. She actually stated the reason why she said that.  Why is more important in this situation.  She's stated a goal-no broken glasses and how location is directly relevant to that. Whose they are is not the slightest bit relevant in this situation. Again, anyone able to focus on the big picture over every detail has no problem at all with this.  Anyone struggling with these ideas needs to work on them, not be excused from learning to do this.

 

I think she should make her expectations clearer, and maybe changes need to be articulated more clearly, because when things aren't as they expect, the kids seem to be at a loss, and this is causing a lot of extraneous conversation/discussion.

 

That's a personality issue that needs dealing with. Just because something doesn't happen the way you expect it, doesn't mean you can blow off what your mother specifically told you to do.  It's completely irrelevant what you did up to now.  Mom said get the Latin  book out.  It's completely irrelevant what happened before now.   The OP said sometimes they do things in a different order, so the child most certainly canNOT pretend to be completely flabbergasted and unable to follow the simple instruction, "Get out your Latin book." because he's done things in a different order before. Even if it was the first time this ever happened he can still get out his Latin book just because mom said to.  He would get more sympathy if AS he got his Latin book out he asked why. Insisting on being given an explanation he approves of or completely understands before doing so is a very bad mental habit to feed. You can obey AND ask. It's not either or.

 

[Justmeandyou]

When my kids start this, my answer is "Yes Ma'am"   They know that I mean for them to do what I said immediately without response/discussion.  Now, I will say I give a bit more info upfront-- in your Latin example I would have said  "We are going to do Latin before math and lunch today." 

[Bootsie]

 

Example #3:

<I bumped the banister as I walked by with my arms full of laundry and knocked down DS’s sunglasses.>

Me: DS, please don’t put your sunglasses on top of the banister. They will get broken.

DS: Actually, those aren’t my sunglasses. They are DD’s.

Me: Ok. Please pick them up. <ETA: by "pick them up" I meant literally pick them up off the floor so I wouldn't step on them - I was not telling him to put them away; they belong in our car, so they don't really have a proper place to be inside the house>

<He picks them up and puts them BACK on the banister!>

Me: DS, please do not put those on the banister. Why would you put those on the banister when I JUST said not to put them there?

DS: You said not to put MY sunglasses on the banister. But these are DD’s.

Me: Are you seriously saying you thought it was okay then to put DD’s sunglasses on the banister when I told you not to put yours on the banister?

DS: Oh. Hmmm. <giggles to himself> I guess not. <He grabs the sunglasses and runs upstairs, assuming I want him to give them to DD, who is in her room.>

Me: <as he is running noisily upstairs - not sure why I talked when I knew he couldn't hear me!> Please put them down here in the coat closet. <I hear him toss the sunglasses into DD’s room, on the FLOOR!>

Me: *sigh*

<DS runs back downstairs, oblivious that I'd said to put the sunglasses in the closet>

Me: Go get them and put them in the coat closet.

DS: I don’t have them.

Me: That is why I said, ‘Go get them,’ first. I said, ‘GO GET THEM and put them in the coat closet.’

DS: Oh. I put them in DD’s room.

Me: I KNOW. GO GET THEM and put them in the coat closet.

DS: Oh, ok.

 

Is it me, or is that just WAY.too.much unnecessary conversation??

 

I’m utterly exhausted.

 

It can go beyond being an extrovert/introvert.  If you are very intuitive and DS is not, you may be expecting him to know more about what you are thinking than he does.

 

In the third example, you begin with "don't put your sunglasses on the banister"  He said they weren't his which was irrelevant to you, but I can see how it was relevant to him.  First, he might be sensitive to being "accused" of doing something he didn't do--even if you didn't mean it as an accusation.  Second, he might think it is being helpful.  Telling him not to leave sunglasses on the banister doesn't help the problem of not having them there if he is not the one leaving them there--maybe he thinks you would want to know so that you can tell DS and she will learn.

 

Then, you tell him to "pick up the sunglasses"--what it sounds like you wanted was for him to pick up the glasses and take them to the coat closet.  He picked them up and then had to "assume" what you wanted done with them.  He assumed incorrectly that he should put them back where they were so that DS could tend to them; then he assumed incorrectly that they were DS and he should put them in her room to tend to them.  

 

Also, if you ask a question like "Why would you do that when I just told you...?"  You are inviting more conversation.  Is he really supposed to answer the question?  At that point, his answer sounds sassy, but I can see how it would be hard for him to really answer that question and at that point you still had not told his what you did want him to do with the glasses, so he had not been disobedient. 

 

I have a child who will carry on like this and I find the more that I can agree and acknowledge the child's concern or confusion, and then be specific about what I want, the less bantering there is--if I am able to say, "Oh, I see those are DS glasses; I will need to remind her not to leave them there.  In the meantime, could you do me a favor and put them in the coat closet so they don't get broken?" there is a lot less to argue about.  

[stripe]

I wasn't suggesting "stamping it out" of the child. That's very melodramatic, extreme language.   I was suggesting teaching the right time and place for such things.  My husband is a computer programmer and suffered socially because, like many people like that, he had a hard time with when it was appropriate.  Sure, it's funny on Big Bang Theory, but what people say about those who have simply never learned to focus on the big picture over a few minor inaccuracies when it's called for isn't flattering. People who struggle with this have a hard time dealing with others.

When I said, "Being such a person, and coming from a family of such people, I prefer to see it as a highly desirable skill, not something that must be stamped out of me," I never said the OP was trying to stamp it out of me or her son, just that I think it's a desirable skill that I think should be preserved. 

 

When I said, " ;) I've had to teach people to pay attention to detail, and it's very, very hard to learn," you replied, "Anyone already prone to naturally focusing on details doesn't need extra lessons in it.  "

 

Well, okay, but I thought it was obvious that the people I had to teach to pay attention, were not ones who already could pay attention to details. My point was that I value people who pay attention to the details of life. That doesn't negate the ability to be courteous to others, particularly one's mother. But asking "Why?" is not, to me, a belligerent act.

 

Actually, it's not.  Don't tell me that a child that literal and supposedly logical thinks it's OK to put HIS glasses on the banister because HIS glasses are less susceptible to being broken. She actually stated the reason why she said that.  Why is more important in this situation.  She's stated a goal-no broken glasses and how location is directly relevant to that. Whose they are is not the slightest bit relevant in this situation. Again, anyone able to focus on the big picture over every detail has no problem at all with this.  Anyone struggling with these ideas needs to work on them, not be excused from learning to do this.

 

I don't understand the reason for your seemingly angry tone ("Don't tell me...."). Obviously we are looking at this very differently, and your lengthy responses are overwhelming me with what I feel are somewhat antagonistic comments to everything I say. 

 

I am not criticizing the OP. I am saying, if she simply said, "Move those glasses!" the son would understand. When she says, "You shouldn't keep your glasses there," it is legitimate *to me* that her son points out that they aren't his glasses and he didn't put them there. If she tells him to play the piece this way, but that's not his understanding of how it should be played, it is legitimate to me that there is a discussion about what to do. I understand that there are people who get upset if anyone questions or "talks back" to a parent. You seem to be one of those people. But I am not one of those people, and I have no clue if the OP is. I don't think it's horrific or offensive for a child to wonder why you're doing something different. Regardless.

 

Whatever "camp" she is in, to the OP, I say -- 

I think you should say what you mean and be direct, and that would cut down on the questions.

 

Every time I've traveled through the Amsterdam airport, I admired their messages on the PA. "All passengers should be on board flight 229. Please proceed to the gate or we will offload your luggage." No blab, no extraneous talk, no chance for confusion. Emulate this.

[The Governess]

When there is nothing to negotiate, or I am out of time or energy, and they start up with the arguments and the "but...,but...," I just say "yes, Mom," and they know to repeat it back to me and the discussion is over. The key is to give them a voice at other times, when you can handle it and it's appropriate, so they don't feel like they are always being shut down.

[Farrar]

Don't tell me that a child that literal and supposedly logical thinks it's OK to put HIS glasses on the banister because HIS glasses are less susceptible to being broken. She actually stated the reason why she said that.  Why is more important in this situation.  She's stated a goal-no broken glasses and how location is directly relevant to that. Whose they are is not the slightest bit relevant in this situation. Again, anyone able to focus on the big picture over every detail has no problem at all with this.  Anyone struggling with these ideas needs to work on them, not be excused from learning to do this.

 

But he's a young child. Of course young children aren't really logical. Of course they only think of themselves. They need to be taught otherwise, sure, but I've known many children for whom this would not come naturally and for whom that line of reasoning would make total sense.

 

See, this also gets to some of the root question... you can trust that your kids are just being honest and that their motives are pure and that any behavior "issues" are because they're kids and need to be trained or taught better habits and that that's our jobs. Or, you can assume that they're constantly trying to pull one over on you and that it's your job as a parent to be vigilant against that and keep them on track. I assume the first and it's serving us just fine.

 

 

That's a personality issue that needs dealing with. Just because something doesn't happen the way you expect it, doesn't mean you can blow off what your mother specifically told you to do.  It's completely irrelevant what you did up to now.  Mom said get the Latin  book out.  It's completely irrelevant what happened before now.   The OP said sometimes they do things in a different order, so the child most certainly canNOT pretend to be completely flabbergasted and unable to follow the simple instruction, "Get out your Latin book." because he's done things in a different order before. Even if it was the first time this ever happened he can still get out his Latin book just because mom said to.  He would get more sympathy if AS he got his Latin book out he asked why. Insisting on being given an explanation he approves of or completely understands before doing so is a very bad mental habit to feed. You can obey AND ask. It's not either or.

 

Personality issue? Gosh. I tend to think that a child's personality is just their own self and person and that we can't really change that. We can change behavior, but not personality. There was a really good thread thinking about this recently, actually. I think that when we approach our kids trying to change them, as in, not their actions, not mold their thoughts or set them on a good path, or change their behavior, but actually change them, then we're pretty much doomed to fail. Not to mention coming at this whole parenting thing all backwards.

 

But maybe it's a behavior issue that needs to be dealt with.

 

Still, I'd just turn it around. Children are creatures of routine. You want obedience and happy children doing their work, make that work part of a wagon rut a mile deep, so ingrained that they just do it. That's habit training. So it's not completely irrelevant what happened before. They have a routine. It's what helps them get work done. Mom is breaking it. And just because something didn't happen the way she expected it (automatic obedience to mom), doesn't mean you can blow off a perfectly legitimate question. ;) Of course, if you think what kids ask is irrelevant and you do just want a "Do it because I say so" household, then okay, fine. Don't answer. That's just a different approach that I would take.

 

I guess I'm not only stuck on the fact that she didn't answer them, but that this type of interaction is really that exasperating. What type of interactions - I'm not talking about obedience stuff here, just, in general - what type of happy chats and interactions with kids would you like to be having, OP? Like, in the ideal world, what does a chat with your 8 yo sound like? What interactions do make you happy in the context of school and your day together?

[wintermom]

I'll start by saying that I'd be exhausted with a 6 month old. Add a talkative/active 4 and 8 yo and I'd be REALLY tired. You sound like you have to be on the defense for most of these conversations. Your dc are picking on this and running with it. Hey, I'd do the same as your dc, too, especially if it meant I didn't have to do something a little hard or do it someone's else's way.

 

It would probably help if you took all the emotion out of it, and made your expectations clear and not personal. Your requests for simple things should be answered with a, "Yes, mommy," and then they do the action. They can ask for clarification, but discussions are not always necessary. 

 

For music practice I simply look into my notes from the lesson and quote from them, "Your teacher said to do this. So this is what you need to do. I am not the expert, but he/she is. If you are unsure, do it this way and discuss it with your teach at the next lesson." 

 

 

[Wabi Sabi]

My DCs (ETA: 8yo, 4yo, 6 mos) are generally good kids. Generally obedient. We teach them obedience, and we discipline when needed. We definitely do not do it perfectly (probably we are too lenient); I’m just stating all of this upfront so there is a little background to my question.

 

We want our DC to be able to petition us when we tell them to do something. We want them to know that their voices and opinions matter. Therefore, when we tell them to do something, we generally listen to their response as long as they are being polite and respectful (and hopefully obeying, if it is something that can be begun while making their petition/comment/etc).

 

The problem is… I feel like they want me to discuss everything with them constantly. Constantly. Constantly. I feel like everything I tell them to do is met with a petition. They will obey. But I am just SO DRAINED by constantly having to discuss everything with them. I’m tired of it. I just want to tell them to do something and NOT have it turn into ANY kind of conversation!!!!!!!

 

A huge part of the equation, I’m sure, is that I am a extreme introvert. My kids and I are home all day together, AND my DH works at home too, so that is yet another person to converse with throughout the day. It takes so much energy for me to communicate this much. Constantly discussing every little thing I tell my kids to do completely drains me and is making me lose my mind. I am generally a patient person, but I am losing my patience with this. By the end of the day my ears are practically ringing from all of this explaining and discussing that happens all.day.long.

 

But I also don’t like the idea of teaching our kids that they are to obey without a word, without asking any questions, without any understanding, without any voice. So that is my problem. How do I reconcile wanting my kids to know their voices matter, and yet seriously sometimes just not wanting to HEAR THOSE VOICES constantly? :lol:

 

Example #1:

Me: Ok, get out your Latin book please.

DS: But we haven’t even done math yet. <we often do math before Latin>

Me: Yes, I know. Please get out your Latin book.

DS: Ummm, do you know it’s already 12:00? <implying it is lunchtime>

Me: Yes, I know. Please get out your Latin book.

DS: Well can I go to the bathroom first?

Me: No. Now Please get out your Latin book.

DS: But Mom, I really need to go.

Me: You should have gone during our break. Please get out your Latin book.

<and he finally gets out his Latin book (while also asking if I remember he has Taekwondo this afternoon! YES!!!! I DO!!! Now BE QUIET!!!!!)>

 

Now, all of those questions are, in my mind, kind of legit. I understand why he is asking them. I understand why he thinks they are relevant. But I’m also thinking of other things – such as, I know our math this week is easy, we need to do some Latin nearly every day, so I’m thinking I just want to skip math today and focus on Latin. And I’m thinking I’d like him to be able to do a history lesson after lunch, but I want to already have Latin crossed off by then. And so, RIGHT NOW – I just want him to GET HIS LATIN BOOK! And I don’t want to have to have a conversation about it!

 

 

First, I get where you're coming from. Obedience isn't really a word I use much (at all?) but yes, in general I expect my children to listen to my instructions and do what I ask of them without fussing or negotiation (is that what you mean by "petitioning?") Likewise, I'm a person who can't deal with too much constant noise and chatter. I need my quiet. 

 

That said, this conversation? It would exasperate me, and I'm not talking about your son's replies! I just don't understand why you would continue on like a broken record stating, "Please get out your Latin book" without offering any other explanation or letting him know what to expect next. His questions were never really answered. I'm not suggesting you enter into a long-winded conversation with him, but in his shoes I'd want a little information too. In my house, this hypothetical conversation might have gone something like this: 

 

Me- OK, get out your Latin book please. 

Ds- But we haven't done math yet! (Totally reasonable thing to say if this is a deviation from your normal routine, IMO.)

Me- I know, we're going to skip math today. 

Ds- Yay! (My ds would be cheering about skipping math, LOL) You know it's already noon...? 

Me- Yep. First Latin, then lunch. Go ahead and grab your book for me please. 

Ds- OK, well, can I go to the bathroom first? 

Me- Sure, but make it quick, then come back and let's knock out this Latin so we can eat.

 

To me, that is NOT disobedience or insolence or unreasonable chatter. It's not him negotiating or arguing with you, neither of which I would have any patience or tolerance for. It's simply a child who who is seeking for some clarification about his day. Providing him with some basic information would not have taken any extra effort on your part, nor would it have necessarily drawn out into a lengthy conversation. In fact, I think keeping him in the loop will have the effect of minimizing the kind of discussions that seem to be irritating you in the first place. 

[CardinalAlt]

Just a quick thought in a much larger conversation... As an introvert with two pretty extroverted kids, I've found I need to develop some code words/signals to preserve my energy in some interactions so I have more to give in others. DD talks constantly in the car, which I could handle, except it's almost never loud enough, meaning I would have to strain. Telling her to be louder over and over drained me - holding up my hand in a certain way that we developed to mean "can't hear you" doesn't. "Bookmark" means hold that thought for later, we're focusing here. "Check" means, hey, you probably didn't mean to, but that came out sounding disrespectful - try again. I probably need to develop more, in more situations that happen over and over and raise my tension level - they work really well for us, kids respond quickly and calmly, because I stay calm, too.

[fairfarmhand]

I haven't read the whole thread but I get where you are coming from.

 

Somehow, 2 very introverted parents had 4 kids, 3 of whom are extroverts! GAH!

 

So I give more information up front, fielding and anticipating questions.
 

"Dd, I know we usually do x at y oclock. However, ___ and ___ are happening this evening and I can't do my part of the work until you do yours. "

 

I have to be succinct and direct in my commands.

 

I also give the glare rather than lecture when I know my child fully understands my order and runs their yap rather than do what I said.

 

I do also think that you are drained and these interactions are sapping you because your silence, aloneness tank is running on empty.

[LolaT]

I feel your pain. Literally. Every day.

[vonbon]

This might seem a bit out of left field, OP, but bear with me a bit--  I do have a point/suggestion!

 

I totally recognize myself and my eldest DD in your post: my introversion, her extroversion, her "lawyering" way of looking at things (I often think she might be gifted in the future at such endeavors), her need to talk over a million things, her tendency to push buttons verbally...much of it being genuine curiosity on her part that I don't want to stifle...some of it being a creative way to dawdle and not get around to hard work that she's dreading...  feeling guilty over my need for silence and sometimes shutting down conversations because I just can't tolerate any more verbal exchange from anyone, etc., etc.   Wondering if I'm crazy trying to homeschool because of my high need for silence and autonomy each day.  

 

Like you wrote, I am so very thankful for my family and the opportunity to homeschool AND I am also very, very drained sometimes by all of this interaction.  I think that has been the hardest part of parenting for me.  Before kids, even when I worked in people-oriented positions, I had time after 5pm each day to unwind, decompress, and be silent.  There were weekends off.  Vacation time.  Holidays.  This mothering gig is 24/7!  Ditto on DH's weird work schedule...No extended family support.  I end up being the one-and-only around here often and the days can get very long, even though my children are--like yours--lovely, generally obedient and good-natured, wonderful people.

 

All this to say, you are posting about verbal interactions and obedience, which is good and right--  I mean, it sounds like you are getting useful feedback here and need to tighten some boundaries for yourself (expectations of how much talking happens with kids) and your child (over-using the verbal banter to control?).  

 

I wanted to add: How are you practicing self-care?  Do you have some boundary-protected quiet time for all people in the house each day--even if only a half-hour or hour?  Time where you can truly decompress from the human interaction and reset your energy for the remainder of the day?  Do you ever have time when your spouse/friends/relatives can care for your children or just be in charge so you can have some time "off"?  Can you set aside any time to walk or exercise just to clear your head and be alone?  I recently found a sport in which I can exercise, be around others, but mainly keep to myself and be silent (swimming--under water).  The exercise helps maintain mood and the opportunity to close off to the rest of the world for awhile is energizing.  I did read you have a very little one, so I'm not sure these suggestions are helpful right now.  All this to say, you are asking about discipline/verbal stuff, but: 

 

When I take care of my own needs for exercise, silence, self-care, some protected quiet time each day I am much more balanced and steady in dealing with the types of verbal interactions you described.  Then I find I am helping and teaching my children lovingly vs. battling against them and walling them off emotionally.