Joel Osteen question and megachurches in general.

[Laurie]

Osteen is more slimy than a slug. His wife is a pompous Barbie doll who has insulted people in public more than once. 

 

But what you've written isn't insulting?

 

I'll be the first to say that I know very little about these people.  I knew nothing about their finances/lifestyle until today...I googled after reading some of the replies here.  Maybe it isn't accurate, but from what I read it seems he no longer takes a salary from the church but earns his living writing books.   So he is married to a beautiful woman,  he can afford to buy a nice home for his family, people willingly attend the church and buy his books.   Is this a crime?  

 

 

 

[Moxie]

But what you've written isn't insulting?

 

I'll be the first to say that I know very little about these people. I knew nothing about their finances/lifestyle until today...I googled after reading some of the replies here. Maybe it isn't accurate, but from what I read it seems he no longer takes a salary from the church but earns his living writing books. So he is married to a beautiful woman, he can afford to buy a nice home for his family, people willingly attend the church and buy his books. Is this a crime?

 

 

 

I believe his wife had quite a "don't you know who I am" moment on an airplane a few years back.

[Seasider]

Steven Furtick.... you guys know his church is SBC, right? Kind of hard to believe.

[poppy]

But what you've written isn't insulting?

 

I'll be the first to say that I know very little about these people.  I knew nothing about their finances/lifestyle until today...I googled after reading some of the replies here.  Maybe it isn't accurate, but from what I read it seems he no longer takes a salary from the church but earns his living writing books.   So he is married to a beautiful woman,  he can afford to buy a nice home for his family, people willingly attend the church and buy his books.   Is this a crime?  

 

 

 

 

Not a crime at all.  The question more frequently put to preachers is: Is he Christ-like?

For me that would involve challenging his congregants. For me that would involve a humbler life.

For me it would be inspiring his many followers to a life of service.  And not just serving to his own insular community. And for me it would not touch prosperity gospel with a 10 foot pole.

 

Things like that.

[Jasperstone]

It's not a Church, but a Country Club.

What type of 'Christians' does it produce? When the message is so wishy washy, with lots of ear tickling. You'd be hard pressed to find the real saving Gospel taught there. :sad:

[sunflowerlady]

I have heard Joel Osteen give.the gospel on his TV program when I have caught a few minutes of it.

 

This was after hearing fundamentalist pastors say that he didn't give the gospel.

 

I don't attend church now but I would be more inclined to attend a church pastored by Joel Osteen than many others.

[DawnM]

I had heard that he went to a SB seminary but was inter-denominational in his actual church.

 

I can't find the hard facts though, other than this article:

 

http://peterlumpkins.typepad.com/peter_lumpkins/2013/10/steven-furtick-and-elevation-church-under-critical-scrutiny.html

 

 

Steven Furtick.... you guys know his church is SBC, right? Kind of hard to believe.

 

[Seasider]

http://www.empoweredbychrist.org/elevation-church.html

 

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/11/08/are-steven-furtick-and-sbc-megachurches-manipulating-the-masses-the-baptisms-and-the-metrics/

[bibliophile]

2 Timothy 4:3 - For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear.

 

 

 

 

*Some mega churches in particular, not all in general

[Seasider]

And good ol' Lumpy, whose site you linked, has some extremely questionable theology, himself. Nobody's perfect and all that ;)

 

Some Southern Baptist churches are excellent, some are awful. Though the denomination was dragged back from the brink of theological liberalism there is no doubt still a very strong Arminian vein running through some of the seminaries and among some of the larger congregations. The Calvinists are holding their ground, but the SBC has a lot of contention to manage internally, especially as they are not growing as they used to, and are losing members regionally.

 

Just an aside, but yeah - both Petey Lumpkins and Furtick give me facial ticks :D

Um, not sure what you mean by "the Calvinists are holding their ground."

 

As I understand it, the SBC started with a free will/priesthood of the believer doctrinal position. In the last decade or so, it has experienced what some are calling a "Neo-Calvinist takeover." The current infighting over this issue is documented.

 

The declining attendance in both SBC churches and convention delegates (messengers) has been, in part, attributed to this controversy currently playing out in SBC churches. SBC's observable response has been, in many cases, to plant churches, such as Furtick's, that appear nondenominational (this perhaps more appealing?) to the uninformed visitor.

 

Also, there are a lot of beautiful-souled, grace-filled Arminians in the world, many them here on this board. Personally, I fall somewhere on the spectrum between the two, as do many who I feel sure will be my neighbors in heaven.

[Seasider]

Well we may be rooting for different sides in this, but when my grandmother and grandfather started planting Southern Baptist missions in California and New Mexico in the 40's most preachers were Calvinists, including my family. We remained so. The denomination became increasingly liberal and was wrestled back in the 90's and it's been reformed quite a bit back to a less seeker-sensitive theological base and practice. I can see why some might call it Neo-Calvinists and a takeover, but for many of us it's a return, not a departure, in terms of doctrine. There has always been quite a bit of variation in the convention, especially depending on the region. And as with any doctrine it can be taken to far to either side, with ditches on both. We don't need refuse-to-preach-the-Gospel hyper Calvinists and we don't need all-paths-to-God-decisionism Arminianism, either.

 

I'm no longer a Southwrn Baptist, despite being baptized and a member of the convention most of my life. But the lesson I took away still stands, in that we must not follow men or convention or tradition over searching the scripture to see if these things are so. Being good Bereans and faithful to preach and teach the word is where it is at. That lead me away from Arminianism and to a Calvinist perspective before I knew what the term even meant. But Christians can and do disagree on the scope and application of the same texts of scripture, and can do so while remaining brothers and sisters in Christ. But as for the SBC, I am heartened by guys like Al Mohler, Jerry Sutton, Paul Washer, etc and their scripturally informed worldview.

 

On that note, this article about the polity bd the most recent convention is a really thoughtful perspective. I expect nothing less from the author, however :)

http://www.albertmohler.com/2014/06/19/baptist-polity-and-the-integrity-of-the-southern-baptist-convention/

Thanks for explaining your history. Being very much not a fan of Al Mohler, I will disengage the conversation here.

[StaceyinLA]

Reminds me of this:

 

http://www.religionnews.com/2014/02/24/megachurch-pastor-steven-furticks-spontaneous-baptisms-spontaneous/

That's just scary.

[Anne in CA]

I believe his wife had quite a "don't you know who I am" moment on an airplane a few years back.

My understanding of that airplane moment was that a stewardess was looking to sue. Only the stewardess stuck to her story in court, all the other passengers said the stewardess had been extremely rude to Mrs Osteen. Sometimes famous people are "set up" in public.

[DawnM]

I am a member of an SB church and am Arminian and not Calvinist.

 

Do you really think that Wesleyanism is the big problem?  

 

And it might help to get some things straight here......Wesleyans can be VERY conservative. 

 

Unbelievable.  

 

 

And good ol' Lumpy, whose site you linked, has some extremely questionable theology, himself. Nobody's perfect and all that ;)

Some Southern Baptist churches are excellent, some are awful. Though the denomination was dragged back from the brink of theological liberalism there is no doubt still a very strong Arminian vein running through some of the seminaries and among some of the larger congregations. The Calvinists are holding their ground, but the SBC has a lot of contention to manage internally, especially as they are not growing as they used to, and are losing members regionally.

Just an aside, but yeah - both Petey Lumpkins and Furtick give me facial ticks :D

 

[LucyStoner]

Someone gave me one of his books.

 

The little bit of it that I read, read a lot like this hokey non-religious business seminar one of my employers had me attend.

 

I can't see his picture without wondering how much of his money has been spent on that face.

[Jennifer3141]

I think that if your job as a minister has afforded you a million dollar home and your own private airplane, you are doing your job all wrong.

 

Jesus would not wear Armani, people.

[Crimson Wife]

I think that if your job as a minister has afforded you a million dollar home and your own private airplane, you are doing your job all wrong.

 

Jesus would not wear Armani, people.

 

I would agree with this statement for myself based on my reading of Scripture.

 

But I'm also trying to keep my focus on doing something about the beam in my own eye rather than worrying about the speck in my neighbor's eye. We are all sinners in need of Christ's forgiveness. My primary concern should be about trying to keep my own self on the narrow way and repenting of my own sins.

 

Placing Mammon above God is sinful behavior but I'm going to leave the judgment of specific individuals to God, because only He knows what is in that person's heart.

[Jasperstone]

I believe there is a difference though. He is leading people away from the truth. And he is accountable for that.

 

J.O.and the others mentioned upthread, are wolves in sheep clothing, and to expose them is totally biblical.

[DawnM]

Yes you most certainly did.  

 

I am currently going to a S. Baptist Church and have joined.  We love our particular church, but I wouldn't consider myself actually Southern Baptist and would not necessarily seek out another one if we were to move.

 

Since I have just spent an entire year in coop with a woman who told me repeatedly I was not really saved because I was not Reformed, I will bow out of this discussion with you.   I really don't wish to rehash all of that.

 

 

 

 

Eh, that's not my biggest issue with Lumpkins, actually - I said nothing about the Wesleyans or any congregations. Though I very much disagree with the Articles of Remonstrants and agree with the Canons of Dordt (obviously), that's kind of an aside. It was this specific individual and some of his writings and posting of edited videos of debates that I contend with, and his news blurbs on Furtick weren't something that gave me any pause.

The latest issue with Ergun Caner and Lumpkins defending his lies has been very problematic, but totally beside the point. Are you familiar with what has been going on at Brewton Parker?

 

[sunflowerlady]

I believe there is a difference though. He is leading people away from the truth. And he is accountable for that.

 

J.O.and the others mentioned upthread, are wolves in sheep clothing, and to expose them is totally biblical.

People are saying that these men are leading people away from the truth. Can you or anyone expound on what is meant by that. I have already said that I heard Joel Osteen give the gospel. What truth are they leading people away from? 

 

What is meant by tickling people's ears and not giving sound teaching?

[DawnM]

Very good question and I think you will get a very wide variety of answers.

 

 

 

People are saying that these men are leading people away from the truth. Can you or anyone expound on what is meant by that. I have already said that I heard Joel Osteen give the gospel. What truth are they leading people away from? 

 

What is meant by tickling people's ears and not giving sound teaching?

 

[ktgrok]

It's funny, many Catholic parishes might have as many members as some of the smaller "mega churches" but I don't think of them as Mega Churches. There is a difference somewhere, but I can't put my finger on it. I do like that my Catholic parish is big enough to have a big youth group for my teen, that's important in our family right now (not for all families, just mine right now).And I like that there are so many services to pick from, just from a convenience factor....5pm Saturday, 8am, 10am, noon, and 5:30pm Sunday. Maybe that is it...the mega churches I know have half as many services, if that many, so there are more people there at once? They also seem more "business" than "church" when I've attended. 

[DawnM]

I looked up and found this on google:

 

me·ga·church

ˈmegəCHərCH/

noun

US

 

1. a church with an unusually large congregation, typically one preaching a conservative or evangelical form of Christianity.  

    

    

    

    

    

    

It's funny, many Catholic parishes might have as many members as some of the smaller "mega churches" but I don't think of them as Mega Churches. There is a difference somewhere, but I can't put my finger on it. I do like that my Catholic parish is big enough to have a big youth group for my teen, that's important in our family right now (not for all families, just mine right now).And I like that there are so many services to pick from, just from a convenience factor....5pm Saturday, 8am, 10am, noon, and 5:30pm Sunday. Maybe that is it...the mega churches I know have half as many services, if that many, so there are more people there at once? They also seem more "business" than "church" when I've attended. 

 

 

However, I still don't know what "unusually large" means.

[shawthorne44]

It's funny, many Catholic parishes might have as many members as some of the smaller "mega churches" but I don't think of them as Mega Churches. There is a difference somewhere, but I can't put my finger on it. I do like that my Catholic parish is big enough to have a big youth group for my teen, that's important in our family right now (not for all families, just mine right now).And I like that there are so many services to pick from, just from a convenience factor....5pm Saturday, 8am, 10am, noon, and 5:30pm Sunday. Maybe that is it...the mega churches I know have half as many services, if that many, so there are more people there at once? They also seem more "business" than "church" when I've attended. 

 

I think the difference is that a smaller number of really large churches is the standard model for Catholic churches.  But, not for protestants.  

 

I know of two normal sized Episcopal churches where the entire congregation and church buildings converted to Catholic, and were then disbanded within a couple of years because the churches were "too expensive to maintain while that small". This was after pre-conversion promises that disbanding wouldn't happen. 

 

Also, I think for many people it isn't just the size of the church.  It is a superstar minister.  Cult of personality around the priest is not something you see in Catholic churches.  Many churches seem to avoid that by swapping out the leaders before it happens.  

[Crimson Wife]

People are saying that these men are leading people away from the truth. Can you or anyone expound on what is meant by that. I have already said that I heard Joel Osteen give the gospel. What truth are they leading people away from? 

 

What is meant by tickling people's ears and not giving sound teaching?

 

I personally have a hard time reconciling the so-called "prosperity gospel" with what I see Christ saying about material wealth in the Bible. I'm not familiar enough with Mr. Osteen to have an opinion on his specific preaching.

 

I also think that American Christianity in general tends to focus too much on the "feel good" side of Christ's message and not enough on the need for repentence and trying to avoid sin. Christ loves us, but He did warn us that following Him would be difficult. That seems to have gotten lost on many pastors who seem like they're trying to please men more than God (like St. Paul warned the Galatians against).

[chiguirre]

It's funny, many Catholic parishes might have as many members as some of the smaller "mega churches" but I don't think of them as Mega Churches. There is a difference somewhere, but I can't put my finger on it.

While I was googling the official definition of a megachurch, I ran into this article from Forbes:

 

http://www.forbes.com/2009/06/26/americas-biggest-megachurches-business-megachurches.html

 

While JO's Lakewood is number 1, number 2 is Second Baptist which has one of its branches in my town. In fact, my kids played Upward Soccer and Basketball there and I know lots of members irl. It would never have occurred to me that it was the second largest megachurch in America because it's actually 5 churches in different areas of Houston that merged. All 5 of them put together have 24000 people in attendance on a weekend. The parish that's about a mile away from the Second campus in my town offers 6 masses per weekend and has about 6000 families on the parish roll (so about 18000 people probably). There are another 3 parishes within a 5 mile radius that serve neighboring towns, although 2 are quite a bit smaller and one is about the same size as the parish in my town.

 

The main difference is that Catholic parishes are very, very large compared to most churches because priests are a scarce resource. Of the 3 in our parish, 2 are immigrants with less than perfect English and Spanish language skills and the monsignor is bumping up against mandatory retirement age. They wouldn't be able to run a parish on their own, imho. But, they don't have to. We have 7 or 8 deacons who are native English and Spanish speakers and they are the ones who usually give the homilies and lots of paid and volunteer staff to run the church office and ministries. It's a pretty clever solution to the shortage of priests.

 

In contrast, Second is vastly more personality driven. The head minister is on all of their billboards. There are other ministers at each location, but they're clearly subordinate to the head of the organization. It would be a much bigger shift for them to replace the head minister than it would to have a new archbishop in the RC archdiocese let alone a new priest at the local parish. His position depends on his personal charisma and not on the organizational authority vested in the archbishop or monsignor. That's the key difference.

[Guest]

People are saying that these men are leading people away from the truth. Can you or anyone expound on what is meant by that. I have already said that I heard Joel Osteen give the gospel. What truth are they leading people away from?

 

What is meant by tickling people's ears and not giving sound teaching?

I am by no means devout, so I may not be the best person to answer this, but I think the "tickle people's ears" means he says a lot of things folks want to hear. I do think it is false to say God wants you to be the business owner. The world needs Office Assistants and CEOs alike. It is a fallacy to suggest that Christians are all meant to have the glory and big-money positions. There is certainly nothing challenging about listening to a rich pastor of a gargantuan church telling the congregants that God has big dreams for them. Jesus himself was by no means prosperous, right? I guess he could have taken up an offering when he drew a large crowd, but AFAIK, he didn't do that, plus he fed them for free.

 

I can't say whether or not he "gives the gospel"; i'm pretty ambivalent about "the gospel" anyway, but The couple times i have seen his show, he was not talking about Jesus or sin or the need for a Savior. He was talking about material good things.

[Cricket]

People are saying that these men are leading people away from the truth. Can you or anyone expound on what is meant by that. I have already said that I heard Joel Osteen give the gospel. What truth are they leading people away from?

 

What is meant by tickling people's ears and not giving sound teaching?

There is a video on this site that sums up some of the problem pretty well.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/pastor-rick-henderson/osteen-meyer-prosperity-gospel_b_3790384.html

[forty-two]

People are saying that these men are leading people away from the truth. Can you or anyone expound on what is meant by that. I have already said that I heard Joel Osteen give the gospel. What truth are they leading people away from?

Joel Osteen does use the word "gospel" when he preaches, but it is not the traditional Gospel message.

 

I watched "Joel Osteen on the Gospel" - a video of him preaching that is on his own youtube channel, what he wants to tell the world about the Gospel - and it was a lot worse that I thought it would be. I was expecting the standard prosperity gospel, "Now that God has saved you through Jesus' death on the cross, he wants you to have a abundant life now, blah, blah, blah" - at least the Gospel got thrown in *somewhere*, even if just as an afterthought or intro to the *real* message. But Osteen didn't even do *that* - in a message specifically on the *Gospel*.

 

Now he talked about Jesus dying on the cross, and he talked about Jesus' resurrection, and us being confident of our victory b/c of Jesus' victory. But by "victory" he doesn't mean victory over sin, death, and the power of the devil, but rather achieving our dreams. "Many times on the way to our resurrection, to our dreams being fulfilled, we experience these types of challenges [Jesus' experiences on Good Friday]."

 

The whole message was, basically, that just as Jesus experienced really, really bad things on his way to his greatest moment, the bad things we may be experiencing now are not signs of lack of faith or that we will never get the good (temporal) things God has promised us, but are in fact part of the process of getting to the good things. We need to have faith that, just as Jesus had his resurrection after the horrors of Good Friday, we too will have our victories, obtain our dreams, even if we are suffering now.

 

Very feel good, very hopeful - but *not* the hope of the Gospel. He's not saying that "God loves you so much that He sent Jesus to die on the cross, that in Jesus He forgives you and saves you and makes you one of His children. You may mess up and fall short and fail miserably, but *God* doesn't fail - His love is more than big enough to cover your sins." Rather, Osteen says that God loves us and wants us to have a good temporal life. He doesn't forgive us so much as excuse us - God understands that we all mess up here and there. Just choose to believe (in what? Jesus' good example?) and all will (eventually) be well.

 

That's not the hope *anyone* needs. And if they think that's it, that's all there is to the Gospel, it would be too easy for them to *never* hear it.

[DawnM]

I think it is more than just prosperity teaching though.  There are a whole host of other teachings that can be heretical and false doctrine.  These can vary wildly.  I know people who think Orthodoxy and/or Catholicism is heretical.  I do not, FWIW, but there are many who do.

 

 

There is a video on this site that sums up some of the problem pretty well.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/pastor-rick-henderson/osteen-meyer-prosperity-gospel_b_3790384.html

 

[Luanne]

I watched an interview he and his wife did, on Fox News Channel, several times. (Fox shows "Extras" to Overseas viewers, when U.S. viewers are seeing commercials).  Their message is *extremely* positive. IMHO, if they are rich, they deserve their riches, because of their extraordinarily positive messages to their congregations. To use a word DD's English teacher applied to a video DD made for a lesson,, they have "Charisma".

 

They deserve their riches by not teaching the truth and only being in it for the money?  I totally disagree.  He hasn't done anything to deserve all the money he has.

 

[Luanne]

I can't help but think that the reason he wants his congregation to be prosperous, is so he can acquire some of that money himself.  They do all the work and then give him the money.  I think he is way off base as to what God would actually have him to do.

[TranquilMind]

I'm only familiar with him in passing.

 

Edited the rest, because others answered the question I asked. 

Cause he's laughing all the way to the bank. :D

 

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

 

If he was just a motivation speaker- fine!

 

But I take offense at how he uses God's Word and teaches untruths, and makes a mockery out of it.

 

He is a hirling, that cares not for the sheep- well, only so much as to that they hand their monies over to his mega church......

 

I can't see him laying down his life for anyone, as he's having the time of his life.

 

 

 

 

John 10:

But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 

 

[TranquilMind]

And close-but-no-banana is the most dangerous message of all, because it anaesthetizes the conscience and gives people a false sense of security. There's a shocking amount of "I done did that Pastor!" discussions in the Bible Belt where people believe they're saved because one time a pastor told them so, but they have no real sense of who Jesus is or their need for a savior.

 

The so-called prosperity gospel is so, so wicked. It has really gained hold in Africa, in particular, and been blended with all kinds of mysticism. But telling people they're not in God's favor because of financial or physical hardship is absolutely evil and unscriptural, which is the natural end conclusion of preaching material blessings as a sign of God's favor and salvation. Joel isn't the worst or most flagrant preacher of this vein, but he leads people astray in the name of Christianity, nonetheless, and he will stand account one day for that.

 

I highly encourage people who are curious about the issues with the prosperity gospel to please listen to the ministry of Justin Peters. He has a four part series he often gives on the topic and it is wonderful, on the prosperity/health/wealth/word of faith movement.

http://justinpeters.org

http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?SpeakerOnly=true&currSection=sermonsspeaker&Keyword=Justin%5EPeters

I was not familiar with Justin Peters so I looked him up.  Personally, I'm not a fan of the heresy hunter style-"ministry" built solely on criticizing other ministers by name and their beliefs.  While claiming to be apologists for the "true faith", in practice, their time and ministry is spent cutting down other pastors/preachers instead of offering up any insight of their own. 

 

Galatians 6:1  Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.

 

1 Tim 5:1  1Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers, 2older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.

 

 

 

I have no problem with authoritative and documented assertions that I believe "this doctrine (whatever it is)" is wrong and here is why.  I do have a problem when speakers get into calling other ministers out and calling them liars or unsaved, or whatever. 

 

From here (Ask Doctor Brown :) "I deeply appreciate the time that Justin Peters has spent studying Benny Hinn’s ministry, and I don’t for a moment question his sincerity or the depth of his concern. I also commend him for his “unequivocal†apology to me for some inaccuracies in his previous article, “Ignorance Is Not an Option,†and of course I fully accept his apology. (There were several more inaccuracies concerning his presentation of my social media comments in the aftermath of recording the Benny Hinn TV shows, but I will allow his apology to cover those as well. I also apologized to him on radio and personally for misquoting him during an interview on another program.)

 

In this article, I simply want to point out how important it is to represent things accurately, especially when claiming that a professing Christian leader is really a charlatan, a false teacher, and a hell-bound heretic. (Mr. Peters made clear on my radio show that he is sure that Benny Hinn is not a believer, so these are serious charges.)

 

Benny Hinn will stand or fall on his own. 

 

I guess I agree with this guy:

 

 

Why I Won’t Criticize Another Church Leader

 

on October 22 |  in Featured, Leadership |  by Josh Teis |  with 109 Comments

 

A few weeks ago someone pointed me to a blog that is built upon the premise of tearing down fellow Christians. The entire website seemed dedicated to the proposition of disparaging and destroying people who love God and Christian institutions. You would think this type of thing would be produced by an unbeliever who merely misunderstands Christianity. However, you’d be wrong. The creator of the website and blog claims to be a fellow Christian.

 

The site made me angry because I personally know some of the people that are being criticized and condemned. I immediately pulled up a word document and began a counterattack. The sarcastic jabs, the backhanded complements, and the accusations of hypocrisy were flowing from my mind and into my critique of their critique. I had been bit! The virus of a critical spirit had jumped right into my bloodstream and I was transforming into a critical person.

 

I believe a critical spirit is contagious. (I will be writing about this topic in a later blog) This is why we as church leaders need to be extremely careful to guard our hearts in this area. I have made the decision to never again criticize another church leader. Here are my reasons:

 

1. We’re On the Same Team

If you view Christianity in terms of networks, tribes and denominations then you will likely not agree with this point. Let me be clear. I stand with Christ. All those who stand with Christ, stand with me. Why would I fight, discourage and criticize those who are on my team? I don’t care what denominational name you prefer. I don’t care what tribe you associate with. It matters not what college you graduated from. You could be so conservative that you have a horse and buggy and that horse is a registered gun owner. You could be so progressive that even your dog has a tattoo. Either way, I’m for you not against you.

I believe the inerrant Scriptures teach that the virgin born Jesus Christ, who performed many historical miracles, sacrificed His life upon the cross as the only atonement for sin and rose from the grave in three days. These are the things that are important to me. If you’re on board with these things, I’m on board with you. (Mark 9:38-40)

 

2. People Follow Our Example

 

Pastors and other Christian leaders often wonder why so many of their people are so very critical and divisive. It may be that they are simply following our example. If people are used to hearing their pastor tear down another church or another pastor does it not stand to reason that the people will in turn criticize fellow Christians. Many pastors have reaped the whirlwind of a critical spirit as they battle angry member after member. Many parents have seen their critical spirit mirrored back as they look into the eyes of their children. Where did these fine people learn to be so critical of spiritual authority? (I Tim. 4:12)

 

3. I Don’t Know the Whole Story

 

We assume we know. We pretend we know. We don’t really know. Years ago Heather and I visited a famous church in So. California. I went into the service skeptical because he didn’t really fit my favorite brand of Christianity. He preached the entire service without walking through the “Roman’s Road.†I walked out of that church convinced that he was not a gospel preacher. I told others. “I’ve been there. He doesn’t even give the gospel.†Now that I’ve been pastoring for nine years I wonder how many sermons I have preached without giving the gospel in the way I expected him to do those many years ago. We judge actions, but we also judge motives. “Oh, I know why they did that. They did that merely to get more people. All they care about is numbers.†Or, “Oh, I know why they did that. All they want to do is control people. All they care about is power.†Or, “Oh, they’re such legalists. They only have those standards to make others feel inadequate or unspiritual.†As if we have the ability or the right to enter the heart and judge another. Here is the truth. If it’s not your ministry, you don’t know the whole story. Leave them alone and go do something for God.

 

4. I’m Not The Master

 

One of the greatest things about the book of Romans is chapter fourteen. Romans 14:4 says, “Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth.†Let God be God and you be you. If there is a pastor that is leading others from truth, God will deal with it. If there is an institution that being spiritually abusive, they will answer to God. God gives us this commandment to save us from our own skewed perspectives. Just because you think a place is evil or a preacher is false does not mean God does. Every person in ministry has fans and foes. If your foes, knowing the depths of your incompetence and wickedness, were able to silence you – they would. However, you don’t answer to them, you answer to God. Isn’t it nice to know that you don’t have to be the Christian world’s policeman?

 

5. It Leaves You Sad & Empty

 

Negativity drains you! Some of the saddest people I come across are those who are critical of everything. Sadly these dear ones are more critical of themselves than of anyone else. Yes they see the faults in others but they also see their own. Glaring at them, these faults seem all too bright. The only way to get the attention off of themselves is to point out the problems of others. This works temporarily. They are able to find others who are discouraged and obsessed with their own perceived inadequacies and refocus their sadness upon a common enemy. They have forgotten that they are absolutely loved by a gracious heavenly father and accepted in His sight. God holds no ill will toward them or those they despise.

I’m not perfect and I have a lot that can be justly criticized. I’m not afraid of a good critique. It’s through such criticism that I have grown and seen the incremental progress that I have seen in my spiritual walk. What I am afraid of is becoming a critical person who is not known for what I have accomplished but what I have criticized.

 

-

[TranquilMind]

Cause he's laughing all the way to the bank. :D

 

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

 

If he was just a motivation speaker- fine!

 

But I take offense at how he uses God's Word and teaches untruths, and makes a mockery out of it.

 

He is a hirling, that cares not for the sheep- well, only so much as to that they hand their monies over to his mega church......

 

I can't see him laying down his life for anyone, as he's having the time of his life.

 

 

 

 

John 10:

But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.

The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 

That's some harsh criticism about the character of a man you do not know.  He may well care about his sheep deeply and  lay down his life for someone.  We just don't know until he comes to that point, either about him - or about ourselves - do we? 

 

I'm not God so I'm not going to pass judgment on Joel's intentions and inner motivations.  That's for God to decide when he sorts out the sheep from the goats. 

 

To use the other well-known analogy that Jesus uses, the wheat and the tares are growing together right now and we will not know necessarily which is which until HE sorts them.    Some are bad now...and will turn it around and end well.  Some are good now, and will walk the other way before the end.  Some are such good wolves in sheep's clothing that "even the elect" will have difficulty detecting them.  Others look like wolves to some, but God knows them as sheep.  We just have to get on the path ourselves and make sure where we are. 

[TranquilMind]

Tranquil Mind - interesting comments and links, thank you!

 

That's not Justin's only ministry, but it's an important one. I think calling out heresy and individuals doing it by name is really important, but *only* if they are unrepentant, public heretics. Otherwise they need to be approached properly for a biblical reproof, Matthew 18 style.

 

I think Josh Teis has his heart in the right place and somewhere back on this thread I commented that I pray for my pastors and myself, that I'd have a spirit of love and not be critical of them in areas of their weakness but seek to build them up. In the local church that is so, so important. However dealing with scriptural error and gently and lovingly correcting a brother is crucial. And if someone is an unbeliever professing to be a believer but twisting scripture the bible has very stern words for them. I agree with him that a critical spirit is contagious. That's why we must stand on the Word as our firm foundation and check our own hearts repeatedly as we discern what is truth and what is error, that our motives are pure and our desire is for righteousness, not our own pride. And if it isn't a crucial issue, there is a lot to be said for letting love cover the offense and keeping our opinions to ourselves.

 

In contrast to Teis, I personally would stand with Ligonier Ministries and the Sprouls on this issue, I think their article is a balanced and biblical view.

 

Discerning and loving, we are called to be both. The modern church is too quick to ignore false doctrines as they poison the church and corrupt thinking with unbiblical concepts and justifications. But as a more conservative believer it's my own ditch to watch that I'm not dividing or sniping on issues not critical to the accurate transmission of the Gospel.

 

Good conversation and article links, thanks :)

Then I'd like to see those judging stick to the doctrine to which they object.  I think judging the people does more damage than good.  If a doctrine is not of God, it is going to fail.  If it is, like scripture says, it cannot be stopped and those trying to stop it could be working against God Himself. 

 

I'm much more willing to listen to a guy saying, "Brothers, you may have heard of  (some doctrine), as some have believed it is well to do X and Y.  But scripture says (fill in the blank).  We would do better to do A and B, because it leads to (fill in the blank)."

 

If I hear this kind of thing, I'm out...."Pastor So-and so is a liar and a cheat and a glutton and unsaved!   He is leading people to HELL saying God wants to bless them or to do this or that!  He is a worker of iniquity, in league with the devil....blah blah.

Even if he turns out to be right about Brother so-and-so, his spirit is wrong .

 

Romans 2:

 

1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

 

5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.â€^a7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

 

 

Anyway, thanks for hashing this out with me. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jasperstone]

That's some harsh criticism about the character of a man you do not know.  He may well care about his sheep deeply and  lay down his life for someone.  We just don't know until he comes to that point, either about him - or about ourselves - do we? 

 

I'm not God so I'm not going to pass judgment on Joel's intentions and inner motivations.  That's for God to decide when he sorts out the sheep from the goats. 

 

To use the other well-known analogy that Jesus uses, the wheat and the tares are growing together right now and we will not know necessarily which is which until HE sorts them.    Some are bad now...and will turn it around and end well.  Some are good now, and will walk the other way before the end.  Some are such good wolves in sheep's clothing that "even the elect" will have difficulty detecting them.  Others look like wolves to some, but God knows them as sheep.  We just have to get on the path ourselves and make sure where we are. 

 

Jesus said:  “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall  enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which  is in heaven.

 

Do you really think JO is doing God's will? Is he working for God, or for himself? How can he justify all that wealth when there are people starving in the world? Also, as Christians we are taught to deny ourselves. I can confidently say JO isn't denying his self one little bit.

 

Many false prophets have a form of godliness, and we as Christians are to judge whether or not it's the Gospel that was taught from the beginning of Christ's ministry. Which in his case, it is not.

[fraidycat]

 

How can he justify all that wealth when there are people starving in the world? Also, as Christians we are taught to deny ourselves. I can confidently say JO isn't

 

If you ate more than one meal today and have a different outfit to wear tomorrow with some shoes, you have NO room to talk. None.

 

How do you justify all that wealth when there are naked, starving people in the world?

[Jasperstone]

To compare normal western living, and JO's excess riches is a bit of a stretch. Plus I'm not making money misrepresenting God's Word.

[TracyP]

To compare normal western living, and JO's excess riches is a bit of a stretch.

 

I don't know. I struggle with this. It is all relative, right? I have no idea, but JO could be giving away 1/2 his income and still affording the extras. I know he is giving much more than what I give. JO's wealth seems like excess to me, but I guarantee if some Tanzanian family came to visit my house they would be either amazed or appalled at the excess. And I am not even close to rich by American standards. I could live on less and I bet you could, too. Who are we to judge how somebody else spends their money?

 

Plus I'm not making money misrepresenting God's Word.

 

 

Here, I agree.

[poppy]

To compare normal western living, and JO's excess riches is a bit of a stretch. Plus I'm not making money misrepresenting God's Word.

Would Jesus agree? About the first part, not the second.

[speedmom4]

It's funny, many Catholic parishes might have as many members as some of the smaller "mega churches" but I don't think of them as Mega Churches. There is a difference somewhere, but I can't put my finger on it. I do like that my Catholic parish is big enough to have a big youth group for my teen, that's important in our family right now (not for all families, just mine right now).And I like that there are so many services to pick from, just from a convenience factor....5pm Saturday, 8am, 10am, noon, and 5:30pm Sunday. Maybe that is it...the mega churches I know have half as many services, if that many, so there are more people there at once? They also seem more "business" than "church" when I've attended.

Another difference between a mega church and a large Catholic parish is the pastor's compensation. Our parish usually has anywhere from 2000-2500 in attendance on a weekend so it's a mid to large sized church. But our priests took a vow of poverty. They are Redemptorists and not Diocesan priests. They make very little money. They live in community as well. They are also moved every 5 years or so. Our parish also started in the 1860s and will be around much longer than any priest we have currently.

 

I attended a large Protestant church for many years that was trying very hard to be a mega church. It taught a prosperity gospel. The head pastor lives in a gated community alongside professional athletes. And every service was like a Broadway show.

 

I have so much respect for any church, Catholic, EO, or Protestant that holds true to the teachings of Jesus and doesn't succumb to the pressures and wants of society.

 

Elise in NC

[DawnM]

A question I do contemplate.  I grew up in East Africa, where we were the very rich.  We knew it was all relative.  We were the rich compared to those we were surrounded by, but we were by no means rich by American standards.  

 

Ron Sider's Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger is an excellent book.   I haven't read his other books, but would like to read A Vision for Overcoming Poverty in America.

 

There are other fantastic resources, but I really do need to get packed.  DH keeps coming in here and telling me we have to get going.

 

Would Jesus agree? About the first part, not the second.

 

[JuanitaL]

There's a shocking amount of "I done did that Pastor!" discussions in the Bible Belt where people believe they're saved because one time a pastor told them so, but they have no real sense of who Jesus is or their need for a savior.

 

 

 

 

Perhaps if they had a better grasp on your theology they would also have a better grasp on grammar? *eyeroll*

[Jasperstone]

I don't know. I struggle with this. It is all relative, right? I have no idea, but JO could be giving away 1/2 his income and still affording the extras. I know he is giving much more than what I give. JO's wealth seems like excess to me, but I guarantee if some Tanzanian family came to visit my house they would be either amazed or appalled at the excess. And I am not even close to rich by American standards. I could live on less and I bet you could, too. Who are we to judge how somebody else spends their money?

 

 

Here, I agree.

 

 

 

1 Timothy 6:10

For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

 

 

Matthew 19:23

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

 

 

All I know is that I don't *LOVE* money. It doesn't drive me. Does it drive JO?  I betcha it does!

 

And the reason Jesus said that it's hard for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God, is because money is their lord. And by going on JO books, his BEST life is now. I know mine is still to come. I don't love this world etc....

[ThisIsTheDay]

 

. . .

 

I left the box blank, because I can't choose just one quote.  Instead, I choose everything you've said in this thread. 

 

Who are you?  You're new here.  I think I love you.

 

:001_tt1:

 

 

[Jasperstone]

I left the box blank, because I can't choose just one quote.  Instead, I choose everything you've said in this thread. 

 

Who are you?  You're new here.  I think I love you.

 

:001_tt1:

 

LOL!!! Thank you, it's lovely to be loved. :party:

 

Yes, I'm a newbie from Australia, G'day! :seeya:

[fraidycat]

1 Timothy 6:10

For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

 

 

Matthew 19:23

Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

 

 

All I know is that I don't *LOVE* money. It doesn't drive me. Does it drive JO? I betcha it does!

 

And the reason Jesus said that it's hard for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God, is because money is their lord. And by going on JO books, his BEST life is now. I know mine is still to come. I don't love this world etc....

Except that there is that whole "judge not, lest ye be judged..." thing.

 

Jesus must be so proud.

[Pawz4me]

Except that there is that whole "judge not, lest ye be judged..." thing.

 

Jesus must be so proud.

 

I would love to be able to like this 1,000 times.  Or more.

 

(And FWIW, I have no personal opinion of JO one way or another.)

[ThisIsTheDay]

Except that there is that whole "judge not, lest ye be judged..." thing.

 

Jesus must be so proud.

 

Except that the whole "judge not, lest ye be judged . . . " thing doesn't mean what you think it does. It's one of those misunderstood verses that people often throw around, probably not understanding what it means.

 

The word "judge" in this verse originates from the Greek krino, "render a final verdict or conclusion." It does not fall under the wide translation of our word "judge."  Other uses of the word "judge" in the NT come from the Greek dia-krino, meaning "discernment." In English, these two words are often synonymous, but they have different meanings.

 

We are called to make judgments throughout the Bible. A few choice examples would be Matt 7:15-17, "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will recognize them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? So, every healthy tree bears good fruit, but the diseased tree bears bad fruit."

 

In order to "beware," you must make a judgment; to "recognize," you judge whether the fruit is good or bad.

 

1 Cor 6:2:  Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases?

 

This is referring to the "saints," the believers, who should not be looking to the unbelievers to judge matters within the church.

 

1 Cor 2:15:  The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.

 

Care needs to be used in understanding this verse (because we are often hindered in our discernment).

 

Obviously, there's more to these verses, I'm just giving the basics here.

 

Yes, we ARE called to make judgments every day, in matters within the church, between good and evil, right and wrong. We make judgments in determining who should be our friends, who should be our spouse, whether the people with whom we are dealing are fools, and much more.

 

As I said, your application of the "judge not" verse was incorrect, but it's one that many easily misunderstand.