Homeschool teen kicked out of local prom because the male chaperones found her too sexy

[Reefgazer]

Yes, ruining my son's life and destroying him with a false accusation would be just as bad as assaulting my daughter, so the two are comparable to me.  My son and his well-being is as valuable to me to my daughter.  Now you can all make eye rolls, pity my daughter, and post the "wow" comment, but that's the way it is.

Yes, but which one is more likely to be sexually assaulted?

 

I'm not saying false accusations are ok and shouldn't be addressed, but I hardly consider the two comparable.

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I think it is more of her imaginary audience. In one place she states that she was calm and nice as her friends were. In another she admits to cussing and flipping people off. She definitely felt she was hot stuff and wanted to flaunt it. All circumstantial evidence. And from everything, it sounds like all the "men lusting after her" comes from her. She claims the dads were all lusting after her. But the only remarks she admits to being made were by a woman coordinator that the dress was too short and about impure thoughts. But she never said the coordinator said the dads were having impure thoughts.

 

Frankly, I think she sounds like someone who should have been kicked out. And I am guessing that the people who run the prom are not going to respond because they don't want to get in to mud slinging. 

 

Wait.  The exact quote from her blog regarding what she was told about the dads: "She took me into a corner in the hall way, with another woman, (who I’m assuming was a parent/chaperone) and told me that some of the dads who were chaperoning had complained that my dancing was too provocative, and that I was going to cause the young men at the prom to think impure thoughts."

 

I do not see where she claims "all of the dads" were lusting after her in her blog. Can you quote that portion for me?

 

Also, following her narrative, her version is that they were calm initially, and then vented frustration after they were kicked out.  Why is that so unbelievable?

[zoobie]

Two, I think you mean Chippendale, I was wondering for a minute there what cartoon chipmunks had to do with anything.

Ohhhh, thank you! I kept reading that and was wondering.

 

Chippendale dancers are always guys, aren't they? I'm only familiar with the SNL version... They seem fairly formally attired... ;)

[JuanitaL]

But for the actor inside the costume, we have to admit it's a pretty modest outfit. Covers literally everything...tough to argue with that. So maybe a prom requiring mascot suits? Because that sounds wholesome.

 

There was an episode of CSI several years ago with people dressed in furry animal outfits ...

[Elisabet1]

Wait.  The exact quote from her blog regarding what she was told about the dads: "She took me into a corner in the hall way, with another woman, (who I’m assuming was a parent/chaperone) and told me that some of the dads who were chaperoning had complained that my dancing was too provocative, and that I was going to cause the young men at the prom to think impure thoughts."

 

I do not see where she claims "all of the dads" were lusting after her in her blog. Can you quote that portion for me?

 

Also, following her narrative, her version is that they were calm initially, and then vented frustration after they were kicked out.  Why is that so unbelievable?

I posted the articles previously. If you google her name, you will see how her sister, or her, who ever was writing that blog, makes references to the 45 yr old dads lusting after her and such.

 

In her initial post, she claims when they were kicked out, they behaved politely. But later, she told the media that she and her group actually cussed at the people working there and that she personally flipped a staff member off. She did all that while still there, while claiming originally, she did not do that while there.

[Elisabet1]

Ohhhh, thank you! I kept reading that and was wondering.

 

Chippendale dancers are always guys, aren't they? I'm only familiar with the SNL version... They seem fairly formally attired... ;)

I was more thinking of the one from the movie "The Proposal." LOL..I don't know if you saw the movie, but it was pretty funny. It has Sandra Bullock and Ryan Reynolds. There is a dance and dance strip thing for a bachelorette type thing. If a guy did that and dressed like that, no one would have a problem kicking him out. I personally think we are in a society that is quick to villainize the boys and men and that it has become unacceptable to have any sort of social code for girls and women too.

[zoobie]

There was an episode of CSI several years ago with people dressed in furry animal outfits ...

Proving NO dress code keeps everyone safe from impure thoughts!

[Lady Florida.]

The like bans have always seemed mysterious to me. Some days I think I'm going to run out, and I don't. Other days I don't think I've liked that much and I run out. I never know when or for how long they'll be back.

 

However I think I have a handle on it now. Somebody here <cough>fraidycat<cough> seems quite familiar with like whoring.

[Rebel Yell]

But for the actor inside the costume, we have to admit it's a pretty modest outfit. Covers literally everything...tough to argue with that. So maybe a prom requiring mascot suits? Because that sounds wholesome.

 

Yeah- I think it would be loads of fun to plan a homeschool prom at the same venue/same time as the Furry Convention in my city. Most places have several events going on at the same time- people only ever cross paths in the lobby.  Would make for some VERY intersting photos.  :lol:

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I posted the articles previously. If you google her name, you will see how her sister, or her, who ever was writing that blog, makes references to the 45 yr old dads lusting after her and such.

 

In her initial post, she claims when they were kicked out, they behaved politely. But later, she told the media that she and her group actually cussed at the people working there and that she personally flipped a staff member off. She did all that while still there, while claiming originally, she did not do that while there.

 

You either have not read her blog or you think I have not.

 

From the original blog post:

 

http://www.hannahettinger.com/fuck-the-patriarchy-guest-post-by-clare/

 

I want to reiterate that my date was being very respectful, but he was also obviously frustrated with her for refusing to communicate with us in a mature or respectful way. Then she got very rude, repeatedly saying “I will not debate with you about this,†when my date was simply asking questions to help him understand the situation, and Mrs. D sent the chaperone to get security at which point both my date and I respectfully demanded to speak with the lady in charge of prom, and Mrs. D refused to let us.

 

....

 

Later on she writes:

When we walked out of the prom, frustrated and angry and feeling very disrespected and violated, some of the people in my group shouted profanities at the security guards, and I personally flipped them off. I putting this part in the story because I want everyone who reads this to know that we shouldn’t have reacted so immaturely to their unfair and disrespectful actions, and we’re all adult enough to admit that.

 

---------------

Mrs. Mungo and I both corrected you on this earlier.  The young lady DID NOT change her story and she never claimed not to have done this.  It is in the FIRST blog message posted about the event.  And you accuse her of lying?

Shenanigans.

 

Now on to the 45 year old dad quote.

What she actually wrote in her rant at the end:

"I’m not responsible for some perverted 45 year old dad lusting after me because I have a sparkly dress on and a big ass for a teenager."

 

She did not say that about all dads or all homeschool dads.  And it seems like a reasonable reaction to have if you were told you were being kicked out due to "some dads" thinking you were dressed provocatively,

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I posted the articles previously. If you google her name, you will see how her sister, or her, who ever was writing that blog, makes references to the 45 yr old dads lusting after her and such.

 

In her initial post, she claims when they were kicked out, they behaved politely. But later, she told the media that she and her group actually cussed at the people working there and that she personally flipped a staff member off. She did all that while still there, while claiming originally, she did not do that while there.

 

And just so you know, you were corrected here:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/514815-homeschool-teen-kicked-out-of-local-prom-because-the-male-chaperones-found-her-too-sexy/?p=5657167

And here:

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/514815-homeschool-teen-kicked-out-of-local-prom-because-the-male-chaperones-found-her-too-sexy/?p=5657178

[Denise in Florida]

I posted the articles previously. If you google her name, you will see how her sister, or her, who ever was writing that blog, makes references to the 45 yr old dads lusting after her and such.

 

In her initial post, she claims when they were kicked out, they behaved politely. But later, she told the media that she and her group actually cussed at the people working there and that she personally flipped a staff member off. She did all that while still there, while claiming originally, she did not do that while there.

 

She did mention that she and her friends behaved badly as they were leaving in the original post.  So there is no contradictory information there. 

 

I did try to google, the stories are mostly the same and I only found the same side view with finger tips photo and the photo in the car. Where did you find other pictures? 

 

I am willing to believe she is telling her view point on the evening. I am willing to believe that she felt everyone was staring, most people and certainly teens, feel everyone is looking at them, especially if she was already self conscious after the encounter with Mrs. D. 

 

She specifically mentioned in the original post that she was told the dad's were complaining. Yes, she might be over dramatic but I doubt she pulling things out of thin air. 

[*Alyssa*]

IMO, IF, Claire went to the dance knowing she would be pushing the edge of rules that she considered to be immoral, knowing that she had her sister's blog as a format to complain should she be disciplined for behavior that would only be offensive to Patriarchs, she is still right to say what happened.

 

EVEN IF she has an agenda, how would she be different that someone who sat at a white lunch counter during the 60's? That was the criticism of the civil rights protesters also. That they were outsiders who had no right to question the status quo, they were just stirring up trouble. That seems to be the real issue here. She had been to other events with these people and knew how they operated. She knew they might do this, yes, but they knew the CHRISTIAN thing to do would be to treat her kindly and keep their lust to themselves, and they made different choices. She chose to highlight who they are in a public forum, which I applaud.

 

Too much patriarchy is ignored to keep those people happy because they are SOOOO ugly when crossed. I attended a home school coop where I just could not seem to catch a break no matter what happened I finally left before they convinced my kids they were evil. Until I did some research I did not know that buzz words they were using were from different patriarchal teachings. I should have guessed as the highschoolers were using Ommibus, but I didn't know about DP at that point.

 

Patriarchy is full of perverts. My concrete example cemented in my mind is all the years I worked in a large hotel we had many weddings and office parties where women who were provocatively dressed would do dances they should have been paid good money to do. Guess who came running to watch these dances? Men from patriarchal cultures of course. Men might have literally killed their wives or dd's for such dancing and such clothes in public risked their good high paying union jobs to ogle these women. The ordinary men I worked with ignored this behavior. 

While I don't support patriarchy of the Doug Phillips kind, I sort of ignored this girl's complaint on the basis I felt she just had an agenda coming into this whole thing.  I still feel she had an agenda.  However, you make a good point here about the 60s and perhaps her agenda isn't as negative as I was previously viewing it.  Maybe this situation was needed for all homeschooling groups to take notice and make some positive changes for the better in the future.  That would be good to see.

 

Thank you for making this point.  I am still sorting through my thoughts on this issue, but your comment gave me food for thought and I appreciate that!  :001_smile:

 

I'd still like to hear the other side of the story and I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt until I do.  However, at the very least they should refund the ticket money regardless of what the truth really is. 

 

I look at it this way.  The adults in this situation need to be mindful of the lesson they are teaching this young woman, because if I'm correct, they are professing to be Christians.  If we believe what Jesus says about being judged for every idle word spoken, then they need to be especially mindful of how the actions they take now is going to effect this young lady for the rest of her life.  Will they be willing to be wronged, if they feel they are, in refunding the money in order to obey Jesus in giving others what they ask of you, so that His name is not defamed?  Or will they hold onto their pride and risk God's judgment on them for potentially having led this young lady away from Him?  Jesus said it is better to have a milestone hung around your neck and cast into the sea than to cause another to stumble.  That should strike fear in the hearts of believers to be very careful how their words and actions affect others.

 

I have to preach the above message to myself daily.  I eat humblepie often.  Ask my husband and kids.

 

[Denise in Florida]

Yeah- I think it would be loads of fun to plan a homeschool prom at the same venue/same time as the Furry Convention in my city. Most places have several events going on at the same time- people only ever cross paths in the lobby.  Would make for some VERY intersting photos.  :lol:

 

A couple of years ago I went to a comic convention with my daughter.  There were many cosplayers there including some furrys. The comic con was on the third floor of a convention center.

 

 

 At the same time there was a church convention going on (I did not catch the denomination) on the second floor of the convention center. Because the first two floors are connected by escalators with an escalator or elevator from there, the cosplayers ended up walking through the same hallways as the church crowd all day long.

 

Everyone co-existed nicely. 

[unsinkable]

Clare also contradicted herself.

 

"We weren’t dancing, but swaying with the music and talking and enjoying ourselves, when Mrs. D again approached me, and gestured me off the dance floor. She took me into a corner in the hall way, with another woman, (who I’m assuming was a parent/chaperone) and told me that some of the dads who were chaperoning had complained that my dancing was too provocative, and that I was going to cause the young men at the prom to think impure thoughts. At this point I said to her that I hadn’t been dancing at all! Much less seductively, and that even if I had been being inappropriate, they should issue a warning instead of just kicking me out."

 

Then:

 

(At this point one of the girls in my group came back and said that she’d been by my side the whole 15 minutes we’d been there and I hadn’t even danced more then 2 seconds and it was completely appropriate.)

 

So , she did dance. Her friend said so.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Clare also contradicted herself.

 

"We weren’t dancing, but swaying with the music and talking and enjoying ourselves, when Mrs. D again approached me, and gestured me off the dance floor. She took me into a corner in the hall way, with another woman, (who I’m assuming was a parent/chaperone) and told me that some of the dads who were chaperoning had complained that my dancing was too provocative, and that I was going to cause the young men at the prom to think impure thoughts. At this point I said to her that I hadn’t been dancing at all! Much less seductively, and that even if I had been being inappropriate, they should issue a warning instead of just kicking me out."

 

Then:

 

(At this point one of the girls in my group came back and said that she’d been by my side the whole 15 minutes we’d been there and I hadn’t even danced more then 2 seconds and it was completely appropriate.)

 

So , she did dance. Her friend said so.

 

I don't think 2 seconds would meet the reasonable definition of dancing, and could be easily considered the same as the swaying mentioned in the first sentence.

[mommymilkies]

 

 

SO...until the other side speaks up, I am not going to make judgements. I saw an article that claimed she was dressed in a "modern way." Skankiness has been around for centuries, so if she was being skanky (which, I don't know all the details) there is nothing modern about that. But since so many PEOPLE, girls and boys alike, seem to have little concern for appropriate public behavior, and this was a school event, it is completely reasonable to have limits. If someone is going to purposefully wave their body parts around, male or female, they should not get upset when someone else sees them, nor should they get upset when someone else draws conclusions as to why the person wanted to show off their parts. People don't typical show off their parts for innocent reasons, they generally are seeking the attention. And they do not like it when they get called out on it. It is no different than other attention seeking behavior. If a young man showed up with an outfit that showy, and starts dancing how she described her dancing "like a bad ass" I am sure he too would get asked to leave. Think Chip N'Dale look and dance at the prom. 

*Le sigh*  Skankiness?  Please go back and reread the whole 9 pages.  I just...do people really not get this?  COME ON, PEOPLE.  You're calling a kid a freaking skank.  I give up.  I'm not quite sure how our species has yet to die off.

 

Ohhhh, thank you! I kept reading that and was wondering.

 

Chippendale dancers are always guys, aren't they? I'm only familiar with the SNL version... They seem fairly formally attired... ;)

Best SNL episode EVER.

[mommymilkies]

Clare also contradicted herself.

 

"We weren’t dancing, but swaying with the music and talking and enjoying ourselves, when Mrs. D again approached me, and gestured me off the dance floor. She took me into a corner in the hall way, with another woman, (who I’m assuming was a parent/chaperone) and told me that some of the dads who were chaperoning had complained that my dancing was too provocative, and that I was going to cause the young men at the prom to think impure thoughts. At this point I said to her that I hadn’t been dancing at all! Much less seductively, and that even if I had been being inappropriate, they should issue a warning instead of just kicking me out."

 

Then:

 

(At this point one of the girls in my group came back and said that she’d been by my side the whole 15 minutes we’d been there and I hadn’t even danced more then 2 seconds and it was completely appropriate.)

 

So , she did dance. Her friend said so.

That's some serious word mincing.  

[SadieMarie]

I think Clare has a common adolescent trait of thinking there is an imaginary audience watching her. Her words, "you definitely would look twice when I walked through a doorway" and "We were also a little grossed out by all the dads on the balcony above the dance floor, ogling and talking amongst themselves."

 

I also think there was a reason she used quotes for her first conversation (when she entered) with Mrs.D, meaning she felt confident that she was relaying exact words but did not use quotes when she was relaying the conversation about her dancing seductively. I think she was too upset and angry to remember exactly what said. She then goes back to using quotes. It says to me that the portion that wasn't quoted could be more about Clare's impression of the conversation, not what was actually said.

 

And then the ending, "And enough with the slut shaming. Please. Goddamn I’m not responsible for some perverted 45 year old dad lusting after me because I have a sparkly dress on and a big as$ for a teenager."

 

Where did all these details come from? The 45 year old man lusting and her big as$? Is this more of her egocentrism/imaginary audience?

 

She does have an audience.  She wrote it up for a blog.  A blog is usually written with the expectation of readers, correct?

[SadieMarie]

 

SO...until the other side speaks up, I am not going to make judgements. I saw an article that claimed she was dressed in a "modern way." Skankiness has been around for centuries, so if she was being skanky (which, I don't know all the details) there is nothing modern about that. But since so many PEOPLE, girls and boys alike, seem to have little concern for appropriate public behavior, and this was a school event, it is completely reasonable to have limits. If someone is going to purposefully wave their body parts around, male or female, they should not get upset when someone else sees them, nor should they get upset when someone else draws conclusions as to why the person wanted to show off their parts. People don't typical show off their parts for innocent reasons, they generally are seeking the attention. And they do not like it when they get called out on it. It is no different than other attention seeking behavior. If a young man showed up with an outfit that showy, and starts dancing how she described her dancing "like a bad ass" I am sure he too would get asked to leave. Think Chip N'Dale look and dance at the prom. 

 

You sound just as judgmental as anyone else here, and more than some.  

 

ETA: And just to be clear, I own up to judging too.

[unsinkable]

She does have an audience. She wrote it up for a blog. A blog is usually written with the expectation of readers, correct?

I'm referring to a concept in adolescent development:

 

Imaginary audience:

 

Definition: The" imaginary audience" is a label for teens' and older tweens' belief that a group of followers exist who constantly watch and judge their every move. The belief arises from the larger concept of adolescent egocentrism. An egocentric adolescents believes that wherever he goes, everyone around him is as interested in him as he is in himself. He also believes his "audience" is continually commenting on his actions and appearance. It's like being a celebrity...except no one is actually watching.

[unsinkable]

That's some serious word mincing.

I don't know what you mean.

 

She said wasn't dancing, then her friend said she was. Those are HER words.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I don't know what you mean.

 

She said wasn't dancing, then her friend said she was. Those are HER words.

 

Definite word mincing when you read them in context. 

[Joanne]

The posts that are made with the assumption that seductive, sexy, or provocative dancing - or body revealing dress - are inherently WRONG sadden me.

 

Sexuality - including that of prom aged minors - is one of the awesome things in life. It seems only to consume 2 people: sex addicts and super conservatives. Most other people seem to have sex in a healthy balance.

 

Dancing is an instinctive expression tied to developmental and life realities; babies and toddlers automatically dance to music. Dance matures and evolves as the body of the dancer matures. Ancient through contemporary dances are ALL reflective of physical intimacy. It is absurd to deny or avoid that.

 

The more you try to reign in *thoughts*, the more you move away from the development of perspective and health.

 

Slut shaming is by far more damaging and traumatic than the normal expression of maturing sexuality.

 

[elegantlion]

 

 

Best SNL episode EVER.

 

May they both Rest in peace. 

[MollyAnn]

My high school mascot was the Trojans, you can only imagine the jokes. :lol:

Mine too!

Homecoming week always had brand name paraphernalia strewn around the hallways. At sporting events signs like "cream the Trojans" and "bust on through the Trojans" were held up.

Thing was the physical mascot we had was a Spartan.

 

I am torn about dress codes, I think they are ridiculous but then I think back to high school and I went to school with a girl who worn torn fishnets and a ripped up t-shirt that had "you look like the pubic hair ball I coughed up for breakfast" hand written on it. During homecoming week we had "buy a friend day" and we had football players walking around in loincloth. Nothing was ever said to anyone because it didn't violate the dress code which only stated we couldn't wear hats.

 

I think Clare looked nice and it is ridiculous that she was asked to leave. I think the adults should be held accountable and issue the refunds they said they would give. Clare and her friends probably read too much into the chaperones watching from the balconies, I don't think there was anything sinister or pervy about it, the balcony is just a good vantage point which is why prison guards use them.

 

On a lighter note... Is anyone else awed by the fact there were 500 attendees?! I am having trouble getting a group of 10 tween/teens to meet up at Starbucks for coffee!

[goldberry]

Imaginary audience:

 

Definition: The" imaginary audience" is a label for teens' and older tweens' belief that a group of followers exist who constantly watch and judge their every move. The belief arises from the larger concept of adolescent egocentrism. An egocentric adolescents believes that wherever he goes, everyone around him is as interested in him as he is in himself. He also believes his "audience" is continually commenting on his actions and appearance. It's like being a celebrity...except no one is actually watching.

 

Wow, you just explained so much of my DD's behavior! :)

[Mom in High Heels]

I don't know what you mean.

 

She said wasn't dancing, then her friend said she was. Those are HER words.

 

I find a huge difference between dancing and swaying.  Dancing *to me* is in the middle of the dance floor, getting your groove on, and shaking what you've got.  Sway *to me* is kind of standing off to the side of the dance floor and just moving from side to side.  

[EowynR]

Timely - this article is in Time Magazine today:

 

"Rape Culture is a ‘Panic Where Paranoia, Censorship, and False Accusations Flourish’"
 

A few months later, Warner received surprising news. The local police had determined not only that Warner was innocent, but that the alleged victim had deliberately falsified her charges. She was charged with lying to police for filing a false report, and fled the state.

 

Cases like Warner’s are proliferating. Here is a partial list of young men who have recently filed lawsuits against their schools for what appear to be gross mistreatment in campus sexual assault tribunals: Drew Sterrett—University of Michigan, “John Doeâ€â€”Swarthmore, Anthony Villar—Philadelphia University, Peter Yu—Vassar, Andre Henry—Delaware State, Dez Wells—Xavier, and Zackary Hunt—Denison. Presumed guilty is the new legal principle where sex is concerned.

 

"It appears that we are in the throes of one of those panics where paranoia, censorship, and false accusations flourish—and otherwise sensible people abandon their critical facilities. We are not facing anything as extreme as the Salem Witch Trials or the McCarthy inquisitions. But today’s rape culture movement bears some striking similarities to a panic that gripped daycare centers in the 1980s."

 

 

http://time.com/100091/campus-sexual-assault-christina-hoff-sommers/

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Timely - this article is in Time Magazine today:

 

"Rape Culture is a ‘Panic Where Paranoia, Censorship, and False Accusations Flourish’"

 

A few months later, Warner received surprising news. The local police had determined not only that Warner was innocent, but that the alleged victim had deliberately falsified her charges. She was charged with lying to police for filing a false report, and fled the state.

 

Cases like Warner’s are proliferating. Here is a partial list of young men who have recently filed lawsuits against their schools for what appear to be gross mistreatment in campus sexual assault tribunals: Drew Sterrett—University of Michigan, “John Doeâ€â€”Swarthmore, Anthony Villar—Philadelphia University, Peter Yu—Vassar, Andre Henry—Delaware State, Dez Wells—Xavier, and Zackary Hunt—Denison. Presumed guilty is the new legal principle where sex is concerned.

 

"It appears that we are in the throes of one of those panics where paranoia, censorship, and false accusations flourish—and otherwise sensible people abandon their critical facilities. We are not facing anything as extreme as the Salem Witch Trials or the McCarthy inquisitions. But today’s rape culture movement bears some striking similarities to a panic that gripped daycare centers in the 1980s."

 

 

http://time.com/100091/campus-sexual-assault-christina-hoff-sommers/

 

Yes, very timely.

http://time.com/98433/video-ivy-league-rape/

 

[unsinkable]

I find a huge difference between dancing and swaying. Dancing *to me* is in the middle of the dance floor, getting your groove on, and shaking what you've got. Sway *to me* is kind of standing off to the side of the dance floor and just moving from side to side.

I understand the difference between dancing and swaying.

 

What I don't understand is the use of "word mincing" in the context of my post.

 

To mince words, IME, means to soften the effect of one's words.

 

To not mince words, IME, means to say what one means, clearly and directly.

 

Word mincing? I don't know what that means.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Look up the definition of "mince" and it should be a bit more clear. 

[SadieMarie]

Timely - this article is in Time Magazine today:

 

"Rape Culture is a ‘Panic Where Paranoia, Censorship, and False Accusations Flourish’"

 

A few months later, Warner received surprising news. The local police had determined not only that Warner was innocent, but that the alleged victim had deliberately falsified her charges. She was charged with lying to police for filing a false report, and fled the state.

 

Cases like Warner’s are proliferating. Here is a partial list of young men who have recently filed lawsuits against their schools for what appear to be gross mistreatment in campus sexual assault tribunals: Drew Sterrett—University of Michigan, “John Doeâ€â€”Swarthmore, Anthony Villar—Philadelphia University, Peter Yu—Vassar, Andre Henry—Delaware State, Dez Wells—Xavier, and Zackary Hunt—Denison. Presumed guilty is the new legal principle where sex is concerned.

 

"It appears that we are in the throes of one of those panics where paranoia, censorship, and false accusations flourish—and otherwise sensible people abandon their critical facilities. We are not facing anything as extreme as the Salem Witch Trials or the McCarthy inquisitions. But today’s rape culture movement bears some striking similarities to a panic that gripped daycare centers in the 1980s."

 

 

http://time.com/100091/campus-sexual-assault-christina-hoff-sommers/

I thought Jed Rubenfeld did a good job.

[fraidycat]

The like bans have always seemed mysterious to me. Some days I think I'm going to run out, and I don't. Other days I don't think I've liked that much and I run out. I never know when or for how long they'll be back.

 

However I think I have a handle on it now. Somebody here <cough>fraidycat<cough> seems quite familiar with like whoring.

 

Damnit! I'm out of likes! I am actually not as down and dirty as some around here - I'm still trying to pass myself off as sweet and innocent - today is only my third time. :blush:

 

But last time - they TAUNTED me, I tell you. They let me have my likes back for one or two posts, then neener-neenered me like a schoolyard bully sticking out their tongue and waggling fingers with thumbs in their ears.

 

I used my special, cleavage IQ power to figure out how it all works. ;)

[PrairieSong]

I'm referring to a concept in adolescent development:

 

Imaginary audience:

 

Definition: The" imaginary audience" is a label for teens' and older tweens' belief that a group of followers exist who constantly watch and judge their every move. The belief arises from the larger concept of adolescent egocentrism. An egocentric adolescents believes that wherever he goes, everyone around him is as interested in him as he is in himself. He also believes his "audience" is continually commenting on his actions and appearance. It's like being a celebrity...except no one is actually watching.

That sounds like Facebook to me.

[Guest submarines]

I don't know what you mean.

 

She said wasn't dancing, then her friend said she was. Those are HER words.

 

If we want to be that literal, I wonder if 2 seconds can be considered a dance.

[Joules]

Yeah- I think it would be loads of fun to plan a homeschool prom at the same venue/same time as the Furry Convention in my city. Most places have several events going on at the same time- people only ever cross paths in the lobby. Would make for some VERY intersting photos. :lol:

My favorite juxtaposition was the years ds went to the state youth chess competition which hosted body builder's convention at the same time. It wasn't just the contrast in body types. The body builders (both gals and guys) wear practically nothing in competition and for photos (which were taken in one of the lobbies.) Definitely a ROTFL weekend.

[FaithManor]

:huh:

I  .  . .  am TRYING to control . . .  myself.

 

Wrestling your very large meat turkey  

 

:lol:  :w00t:  :smilielol5:  :rofl:  :willy_nilly: 

 

My new favorite self-love euphanism ever!!

Oh my gosh! I never thought about how that sounded. I was actually thinking about the time I was helping with "small "livestock check in (which, if you've seen these turkeys, small is NOT the word that comes to mind LOL) and one got loose and came after me. Sucker was a mean thing and frankly, I was ready to end his life and send him to the great big oven in the sky!!

 

Soooo funny....I was though thinking about how darn hard those blasted things are to work with. The kids make good money, but wrestling those blasted birds into their pens is just not fun work.

[FaithManor]

Wrestling the meat turkey is, indeed, pretty great, but I can't believe you all missed this one:

 

GUYS! I'm referring to all of the kids showing livestock and by that I mean that they raised really huge animals to show and sell at the fair!

 

Ya'll have been on this thread too long and fried y'ur brains! :lol:  :lol: :lol:  

[FaithManor]

The posts that are made with the assumption that seductive, sexy, or provocative dancing - or body revealing dress - are inherently WRONG sadden me.

 

Sexuality - including that of prom aged minors - is one of the awesome things in life. It seems only to consume 2 people: sex addicts and super conservatives. Most other people seem to have sex in a healthy balance.

 

Dancing is an instinctive expression tied to developmental and life realities; babies and toddlers automatically dance to music. Dance matures and evolves as the body of the dancer matures. Ancient through contemporary dances are ALL reflective of physical intimacy. It is absurd to deny or avoid that.

 

The more you try to reign in *thoughts*, the more you move away from the development of perspective and health.

 

Slut shaming is by far more damaging and traumatic than the normal expression of maturing sexuality.

Joanne, I can't like this enough. Really so I had to applaud you in post! :hurray:  :hurray:  :hurray:

 

And in every culture since ancient times, co-ed dancing has always had the purpose of pairing off males and females for mating purposes. Fun and entertaining yes! But, always with the goal of matchmaking in mind, and ultimately sex because the bottom line was that marriages weren't legal until sex had occurred, whether the sex was immediate or put off for some later date or contractual obligation, that was the end goal - mating, producing offspring. It's only been a rather recent (say last 100 or so years) phenomenon that young people dancing was supposed to be purely innocent and only for wholesome entertainment. My guess is that society probably decided to not actively marry off our 16 year olds, but didn't want to give up the dancing, and then gets really, really miffed when it's not always about "wholesome" entertainment LOL!

 

As for Christians, I think the ultra conservative ones really don't like to be reminded that God was pleased with King David for dancing butt naked in the streets when the Ark returned to Israel nor the reminder that when his wife thought he was making an ass of himself and judged him for it, she was divinely punished. Hmmmm....food for thought. (Personally not fond of the naked guy dancing thing....feels a lot like the monkey exhibit at the zoo :D , but I'm just sayin' !)

 

Well, one can think about that a lot, but sad to say, I don't think we'll see a return to butt naked church dancing in the highways and byways of America. :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  However, off topic here, just for the sake of the entertainment of the hive, don't ya think that someone here should go to their church board meeting this month and suggest "butt naked dance worship team" as the new, go to, church growth ministry?? Oh pretty please. Just do it and make sure you report back on that. Post the video on youtube.

 

There may have been some types of moves that many would NOT have wanted to see in that set of circumstances. That's fine. Make whatever rules you want. But, make them BEFORE everyone buys a ticket, clearly spell out the expectations, and then also elucidate how violations will be handled. Saves a lot of crazy later on. I bet they've lived and learned from this one.

 

Our PS has three rules, no twerking, no grinding, and no touching your own or anyone else's private's as part of the dance moves. So, if Claire had attended the prom at my local PS and she had "run her hands over her breasts" or whatever was the objection, she would have received a couple of warnings and then if she didn't comply, two female teachers in conjunction with the school principal would have quietly taken her aside and asked her to leave. It's in the student handbook so they don't have to make a big deal about and they wouldn't be arbitrary. The kids know it AHEAD of time so if they don't like it, they don't buy tickets. Most of them who spent all of the money on dresses, tuxes, hair, tickets, pictures, and flowers really want to be there for the duration of the event so my three PS teaching friends in this district who have personally chaperoned the prom have told me it's not a big deal.

 

The single biggest issue, beside the total over obsession with sex and impure thoughts and blah, blah, blah, is that the organizers very likely had quite conservative expectations which number one means, YOU PROBABLY SHOULDN'T HOST ANYTHING CALLED PROM, and 2. their expectations were in their heads and not on paper. You have to be honest about this stuff. Spell.it.out. or take the consequences when it goes down differently than you imagined in your head.

 

More than anything, I hope that those that organized it will take a good look at the situation and how to do better before they attempt to host such an event again.

 

Oh, and as for it possibly being in a Methodist church gym? That would not be an issue here if it was United Methodist. Most of those churches in this area not only aren't against dancing, but don't heavily police attitudes about dancing. If they rent the gym, then they don't put a lot of controls on the use of it so long as there isn't any alcohol or damage. Some of the churches have sold off their gyms because with falling membership it's too expensive to maintain such huge buildings plus the sanctuary and education wing. The gyms quite often are purchased by the municipality and used as community centers and that means lots of secular functions take place in them. Often though, if the churches are centennial or older churches, due to the history, if there is a historical marker sign on the grounds, it is left in place even if the building is not used for religious purposes any longer. So, I would not automatically assume anything from the tidbit that it may have been hosted in a Methodist gymnasium. One would need to research that and find out who was actually in control of renting it out to this group.

 

You know what kind makes my brain go mental? That people are so darn unobservant. How can people so freaking worried about modesty and fully prepared to judge people on perceived sexual motivations - ie. those that decided on the dress code - NOT have figured out before they created that dress code that people come in all shapes and sizes, that some people have long arms and so the dress would be longer, and some would have short arms and the dress would be "too short", and that some people have almost no arms and the dress would be nothing more than a nice shirt? Really, I just don't get it. If the sight of underwear is going to do you in, then it seems insane that this was the standard. Did they not notice that some people have butts and thus dresses and skirt will ride up? Did they not notice that some people have no butts and wouldn't be able to get a dress to ride up even if they wanted it to show off their cheekies? My husband has no butt. Gravity is unkind. He can hardly keep a pair of pants up even with a belt. How can people so worried about appearances NOT have noticed other body types??? Did they also wander hassling the boys if their shirts came untucked while they danced lest they bend over in the dance and their underwear band showed? I'm just wondering here.

 

I mean, I am really struggling to wrap my brain around this conundrum because it's beginning to feel like an existential question! ;)

[In2why]

You think your son is more at risk of a false accusation than your daughters are of...what? False accusations?  If that is what you are saying (which is really weird and kind of odd to put out there), then I guess I agree.

If you are trying to say your son is more at risk of a false accusation than your daughters are of being sexually assaulted, you are so monumentally wrong that I can't even quantify it in my mind.

 

And no, your "case" isn't made by anything said in this thread.  At no point have all homeschool dads been slandered.  What you have read is that many of us would not be surprised to hear that what was said to Clare is true, and yes, that many of us do have a low opinion of those in the patriarch movement who obsessively focus on the bodies of women and girls.  Frankly, our case is better supported than yours thanks to the revelations about some of the leaders of that movement.  (Doug Phillips anyone?)

 

And finally, the next time you decide to slam the critical thinking skills of others, I would suggest not following up with a link to a site with serious bias issues.

 

For me the focus wasn't on the Dads at the dance at all.  If anything in my experience it is even more likely that Mrs. D put the focus on the Dads to give herself more authority, which is often found in a patriarch system as well.   Complete guessing on my part but she probably had a problem with Clare, either from that night or previously and didn't have the ovaries to take responsibility, so instead she went to the real authority in her mind, the men, for opinions or didn't and just used them as an excuse.  Either way telling Clare that the fathers had a problem got the whole thing rolling and put the target on their backs.  It also led to Clare and her friends in hindsight thinking about the men judging them sexually.   In my experience when a young girl is being provocative most men are embarrassed, nervous, and try to get the heck out of the situation.  Not escalate it by calling attention to the fact.     

[Aura]

For me the focus wasn't on the Dads at the dance at all. If anything in my experience it is even more likely that Mrs. D put the focus on the Dads to give herself more authority, which is often found in a patriarch system as well. Complete guessing on my part but she probably had a problem with Clare, either from that night or previously and didn't have the ovaries to take responsibility, so instead she went to the real authority in her mind, the men, for opinions or didn't and just used them as an excuse. Either way telling Clare that the fathers had a problem got the whole thing rolling and put the target on their backs. It also led to Clare and her friends in hindsight thinking about the men judging them sexually. In my experience when a young girl is being provocative most men are embarrassed, nervous, and try to get the heck out of the situation. Not escalate it by calling attention to the fact.

I agree with about the *possible* scenario wrt Mrs. D. I have seen that happen, too! Enough that the thought crossed my mind as well.

 

I have also seen men--grown men w/ teens of their own--get downright angry when a young lady dressed immodestly (by their standards: we're talking shorts and cami shirt in the summer, she was completely covered), so I can also see a man saying something if he thought she wasn't being modest.

[In2why]

 

Your sons can dramatically minimize their risk of false accusations - and a myriad of other problems including STDs and unplanned pregnancy - by choosing not to participate in what your linked article calls the "growing prevalence of ambiguous and drunken encounters fueled by an anything-goes campus culture".

 

If you don't hook up with drunk girls you barely know, you're highly unlikely to end up with all the negative consequences that can ensue from such behavior.

 

This strategy, which works in all settings, not just college campuses, is much more likely to yield positive results over a man's lifetime than just avoiding a college education altogether from fear of negative fallout from encounters with intoxicated women.

 

 

Or they can attend the many "Don't.get raped" lectures and substitute accused every time they hear raped.  The same rules apply.  Don't be alone with a girl, don't be provocative, don't drink, have a buddy, and so on.  Overall take responsibility for not getting falsely accused the same way young women are told to take responsibility for not getting raped.  Fair.....nope.  But ironic.....yes.

[In2why]

Oh, I wouldn't deny at all that she comes across as arrogant, egocentric, etc. I just don't think that plays into the bottom line.

 

 

It also is part of the problem.  We are discussing whether she deserved what she got in a way similar to the way people used to decide if a woman was raped based on what she was wearing.   

 

She thought she looked hot

She was belligerent

She used the F word

Her family isn't part of the religious part of the organization

She had an attitude

[FaithManor]

I agree with about the *possible* scenario wrt Mrs. D. I have seen that happen, too! Enough that the thought crossed my mind as well.

 

I have also seen men--grown men w/ teens of their own--get downright angry when a young lady dressed immodestly (by their standards: we're talking shorts and cami shirt in the summer, she was completely covered), so I can also see a man saying something if he thought she wasn't being modest.

Yes, were you around for the infamous thread about the TSA agent that made rather inappropriate comments to a teenage girl - who wasn't even dressed provocatively so his comments were so left field that it was hard to imagine -  as she came through his security line at the airport?

 

I mean, dude, your job is to have her walk through the metal detector or scanner or whatever, and have her put her purse and carryon on the conveyor belt. That's your job. You are supposed to be a heck of a lot more worried about whether or not somebody is trying to smuggle C-4 on a plane then whether or not you think her camisole with flannel shirt and leggings is "alluring" or not. it was an EPIC thread. The thing that struck me was that he was charged with what is a very high level of responsibility for public safety and he's supposed to be alert to warning signs not whether or not he might be able to see skin on this girl or thought her leggings were too tight! I mean dude, whose sneaking past you while you are hassling this girl???? And your attitude is the problem here not this girl.

 

So, it absolutely does happen. There are guys who have been raised to NOT respect females and so they think they are entitled to not only an opinion but an aggressive opinion about what other random women wear. That's a problem. A real problem. And I've seen it within the patriarchial movement - 4H parents again...thankfully very few, but sometimes we get some of them at the county fair so their kids can show horses, cows, chickens, etc., and they want to be the dress police for all and are really nasty about it too. The dads can be really extreme and loud. They thankfully, do not ever represent anything that approximates even a small portion of dads. They are there own little extremist lot living in their own little la la land that would make most men think, "What the heck?", followed by, "Creeper, get away from my daughter!" I am thankful that most men are no where near like them.

[In2why]

Timely - this article is in Time Magazine today:

 

"Rape Culture is a ‘Panic Where Paranoia, Censorship, and False Accusations Flourish’"

 

A few months later, Warner received surprising news. The local police had determined not only that Warner was innocent, but that the alleged victim had deliberately falsified her charges. She was charged with lying to police for filing a false report, and fled the state.

 

Cases like Warner’s are proliferating. Here is a partial list of young men who have recently filed lawsuits against their schools for what appear to be gross mistreatment in campus sexual assault tribunals: Drew Sterrett—University of Michigan, “John Doeâ€â€”Swarthmore, Anthony Villar—Philadelphia University, Peter Yu—Vassar, Andre Henry—Delaware State, Dez Wells—Xavier, and Zackary Hunt—Denison. Presumed guilty is the new legal principle where sex is concerned.

 

"It appears that we are in the throes of one of those panics where paranoia, censorship, and false accusations flourish—and otherwise sensible people abandon their critical facilities. We are not facing anything as extreme as the Salem Witch Trials or the McCarthy inquisitions. But today’s rape culture movement bears some striking similarities to a panic that gripped daycare centers in the 1980s."

 

 

http://time.com/100091/campus-sexual-assault-christina-hoff-sommers/

One HUGE difference.  There were no witches.   There ARE numerous sexual assaults.   

 

I agree there is a problem with false allegations. My best friends husband was accused of molesting his 4 year old daughter from a previous marriage when he returned from his honeymoon with my friend.  His daughter is now 18.  When this happened he was in the Navy, involved in a visitation dispute with his ex-wife and it almost ruined him.  They spent almost 15k in legal fees and therapists.  Every doctor who saw the child said nothing happened and every therapist said that basically the Mother was using the child and allegations as a weapon.  When the therapist didn't agree with the Mother, she would find another therapist.  This dragged out for a couple of years and she finally admitted that she was afraid that he and new wife were going to seek custody.  He was able to hold on to his career and marriage, and what they spent in legal and therapy bills could have paid for a year or more of college.  It was horrible.  The daughter and father and family have a tumultuous relationship largely as a result.  The mother also accused my friend of physically abusing the child during court ordered visitation while Dad was deployed and that is how the judge finally unraveled it all and said enough is enough and threatened Mom with jail time if she didn't follow the court order to the letter and stop the bull.  

 

With all that said and acknowledged we still know there is a problem with children being abused and women being raped.

 

What do you see as the solution?   It seems to me that you see the accusations as the problem, and I agree they can be, and are when they happen, devastating.   But what is the solution?   We don't want to step backwards, and unfortunately most sexual assaults involve a he said, she said situation.  When you stress allegations as the problem you must understand that it leaves women incredibly vulnerable and  even less likely to come forward.  I hate when false allegations are made because it makes it harder for the victims to get justice.   Some men are going to be sacrificed just like some if not most women are going to be denied any justice because they don't even report an assault.   To me we need to have these discussions or as you put it witch hunts because then it becomes okay to stand up.  

 

I will take the leap;  I was raped when I was 8 years old by the father of a friend.  Not sexually molested, or assaulted.  I was raped.  It took me a long time to use that word.  The first time I ever spoke about this I was 15 years old.   At the time it happened I had never heard of children getting sexually abused and couldn't even voice what happened because it was too horrible.  The man had children, a wife, was a nice man my family knew well.  He raped me 2 days before we moved to another state.  He had never touched me before that.  As an adult I realize now that his wife knew.  She gave me a bath.  I was spending the night with his girls.  She gave me a bath afterwards.  That will really screw your brain up thinking about it.  Imagine how bad it was realizing it as a mother myself.   He relied on secrecy and distance to protect himself.  He was right because I knew at a bone deep level at age 8 that I must have caused it to happen and that it was my fault and I couldn't tell a soul.  He told me he would kill me if I told anyone.   Sure, I believed him.  If he could do what he did he absolutely could kill me.  He could do anything in my mind. 

 

Flash forward.   We talk about these things because they happen.  They happen because of twisted sick F##s , they happen because of secrecy and shame.  They happen because we shame our daughters, do not educate and listen to our son's.  It happens because we savage the victim.  It happens because we focus on body parts instead of attitudes.  It happens because we don't talk about healthy sexuality.  It happens because sex is wrapped in secrecy and power instead of love and laughter.  

 

I can't feel too horrible for the few men falsely accused when there are millions of women actually raped.   Of course there are also men and boys raped and they are just beginning to come out of the shadows and break the chains of secrecy and shame.   

[In2why]

My favorite juxtaposition was the years ds went to the state youth chess competition which hosted body builder's convention at the same time. It wasn't just the contrast in body types. The body builders (both gals and guys) wear practically nothing in competition and for photos (which were taken in one of the lobbies.) Definitely a ROTFL weekend.

 

My youngest son wanted to wrestle until he saw what they wear.  Even I am amazed because the little guys leave nothing to the imagination.  Luckily he changed his mind and decided it was okay after we went to a meet and everyone was dressed like that.  When he saw he might need to wrestle a girl it became a whole other story.   Until he saw the girl taking almost every match.  Then they stop thinking of her as a girl and realize she is an opponent.   

[Wildcat]

Oh my gosh! I never thought about how that sounded. I was actually thinking about the time I was helping with "small "livestock check in (which, if you've seen these turkeys, small is NOT the word that comes to mind LOL) and one got loose and came after me. Sucker was a mean thing and frankly, I was ready to end his life and send him to the great big oven in the sky!!

 

Soooo funny....I was though thinking about how darn hard those blasted things are to work with. The kids make good money, but wrestling those blasted birds into their pens is just not fun work.

 

~ Grin ~  Well, I was glad for the laugh, even though my ds thought I was 'losing it' (no, I never did tell him what was so funny....I just couldn't do it!).

 

[myfunnybunch]

My favorite juxtaposition was the years ds went to the state youth chess competition which hosted body builder's convention at the same time. It wasn't just the contrast in body types. The body builders (both gals and guys) wear practically nothing in competition and for photos (which were taken in one of the lobbies.) Definitely a ROTFL weekend.

 

Last month, our youth choir performed at the Youth Symphony anniversary celebration, at which most of the folks were dressed in symphony-ish attire. In the other hall at the performance center was a benefit for a community organization. The entertainers and many of the attendees were drag queens in full get-up. That was a fun contrast.

 

Cat

[ChocolateReignRemix]

My youngest son wanted to wrestle until he saw what they wear.  Even I am amazed because the little guys leave nothing to the imagination.  Luckily he changed his mind and decided it was okay after we went to a meet and everyone was dressed like that.  When he saw he might need to wrestle a girl it became a whole other story.   Until he saw the girl taking almost every match.  Then they stop thinking of her as a girl and realize she is an opponent.   

 

My oldest had the same reaction regarding swimming.  The local swim team still wore speedo style swimwear and he said no thanks.  Even the jammer style was a no go.