Homeschool teen kicked out of local prom because the male chaperones found her too sexy

[Wildcat]

Ever wrestle with your very large meat turkey?

 

 

:huh:

I  .  . .  am TRYING to control . . .  myself.

 

Wrestling your very large meat turkey  

 

:lol:  :w00t:  :smilielol5:  :rofl:  :willy_nilly: 

 

My new favorite self-love euphanism ever!!

 

 

Do you wrestle a turkey by grabbing it by the neck?

 

Oh, man. Someone needs to come over here and explain to my 19y/o ds just why I am choking on my coffee. :lol:

[goldberry]

:grouphug: I believe that there is a way to teach girls a healthy amount of modesty, free of any shame or blame. (I'm not saying I've discovered the secret, but that I believe it's possible.) Don't heap guilt upon yourself, because if you were teaching them modesty without all of the underlying patriarchy stuff, I doubt that you did them any harm. And I don't know how old they are (forgot to check your sig before I hit reply), but you most likely still have plenty of chances ahead of you to make a positive impact.

 

I believe that there is a healthy balance, that we can teach our daughters to dress in ways that are functional when they need to be and feminine when they want to be, without feeling pressured to let it all hang out and dress in an overtly sexual way. Now if someone could just teach me HOW to do that I'd be grateful! :) I've got it very easy with my 14yo dd. Her everyday wear is very tomboy (cargo shorts and graphic tees with images of her favorite video game characters - we shop in the boys department most of the time!) and when she does dress up she is drawn to very simple and classic looks (she adores Audrey Hepburn and wishes that she could dress in 1950's styles). So I'm certainly not saying I know how to guide a girl in the right direction - my girl has always just naturally gone in a direction that was entirely acceptable to me. If we butt heads sometime down the road, well I will need all the help and wisdom I can get.

 

DD is my style queen, very girly, loves clothes and looking cute.  We had an incident recently....The girls in her group have been wearing those cute knee socks with lace at the top, with boots and the tops showing out of the boots.  Cute.  DD puts together an outfit though...involving a top, a skirt, these lace knee socks, and heels.  She thinks this is a totally original outfit.  Do you see where this is going??

 

http://www.halloweencostumes.com/super-sexy-school-girl-costume.html?PCID=21&utm_source=googleps&utm_medium=PPC&utm_campaign=PLA-All&gclid=CPq34L2Trr4CFRQmMgodM3gAWA

 

Now, of course she did not look like this on top, and the skirt was longer, but the general vibe on my very cute little daughter was enough to make my eyes pop out.  She is like, "What?  What's wrong?"  She knew she was covered, no tops or bottoms hanging out... but....the look!

 

 

So I decided to just google "sexy schoolgirl" and show her the pictures.  "That is so gross!  Who is so perverted out there making schoolgirls into sex objects!"  But let's just say she decided on her own to go change.  Yes, perceptions are a bummer and unfair, but sometimes you have to deal with them and decide if you want that perception applied to you. She did not.

[Reefgazer]

Her post struck a chord with me because there is currently a discussion on the College Board forum here regarding sexual assault and how colleges don't follow through on punishing the alleged  perpetrator.  Sexual assault also came up in this thread, and hence, the connection in our heads.  I think a lot of reason sexual assault is not followed up on by colleges is because there is such difficulty in proving someone is guilty in a such a situation, but there are still calls for college men's heads, despite the lack of proof or evidence.  I have a son and a daughter, and the situation makes me worried for both of them.

I don't think anything about this thread implied that all homeschool dads or even a small percentage of them are pervy. Yes, many have had negative experiences with encouraging of perviness within the patriarchial movement, but given that the vast majority of us are married to good and decent men and we homeschool, it doesn't stand to reason that anyone was claiming all homeschool dads are pervy.

 

Given that millions of men and male teens attend college every day without incident, it also does not stand to reason that males should  avoid college. Can you site an article from a reputable news source, law enforcement officials, etc. that makes such a statement?

 

[Truscifi]

We were discussing this story yesterday at my homeschool community center, in bewilderment. The center doesn't even have a dress code. In five years, the only "inappropriate dress" incident they've ever had to deal with is a teen wearing a rubber bracelet that said "F--- you." (They asked her to take it off or turn it inside out, and she did. End of problem.) We have a number of Orthodox Jewish families, a number of Christian families, a bunch of secular folks, and at least one mom and teenage daughter who wear the chador, and policing the kids' clothes is left up to their families. There are no clothing-related discipline or focus issues in classes or at events. The boys don't seem to have turned into ravening beasts. Neither do the homeschool dads. I can't even begin to express how much modesty is a non-issue in this community.

 

I have to say that, from my outsider's perspective, some of these conservative Christian communities just seem mindbogglingly obsessed with sex. It's really baffling to me. I live in a world full of boy-girl and man-woman friendships, dressing for comfort and personal expression, rampant exposure of not-legally-forbidden body parts, comprehensive sex ed, out gay folks, and a general lack of interest in concepts of "modesty." And it's just... not a big deal. At all.

 

It just doesn't turn out to be true that boys can't respect and appreciate the mind of a girl who is wearing shorts. It just doesn't turn out to be true that male-female friendships inevitably lead to inappropriate sexual behavior. If you think about sexuality as a normal part of the human experience, rather than something to constantly police and obsess about, then sexuality is just that: a normal, not overwhelming, not dangerous or destructive part of human experience.

 

I WANT MY LIKES BACK!!!!

 

Seriously, I totally agree with you, Rivka.

[DarlaS]

Some dresses look completely fine, as long as you don't move.

 

If her panties were showing when she lifted her arms up (which could happen, based on the pictures) then what?

 

Is the dress still fine? BC it met the letter of law?

 

 

As a teen if I had worn that dress? There's no way I could have done anything but stand there without flashing someone my underpants. It would have been inappropriate on me at any event for that reason--no matter what the dress code said. 

 

I'm 5'6" and have long enough arms. I just have a long torso. I have never been able to wear fingertip length dresses at *any* weight, and never needed anyone to tell me that. I just don't go there--and I am NOT a conservative type. I just think it's common sense to keep underwear... you know... UNDER something. 

 

ETA: I have a teen dd. If she wanted to wear short shorts or a top that accented her (relatively new) bustline, I would not have a huge problem with it. As long as it fit her properly and her (hipster) underwear were covered.

[Denise in Florida]

Where's the proof that the Dads were responsible for this at all? A woman may or may not have said something to that effect, but was it true? No male person ever was heard speaking in any of the stories, right?

 

All I can think about is how hard my husband sacrifices for our ability to homeschool, how tired he is all the time after a long day at work and his subsequent attention to his family. His life, basically, sucks. And now it seems like "homeschooling Dad" is synonymous with pervert and patriarch?

 

Now *my* blood is boiling, because I really don't like this at all.

 

I'm starting to read more and more about how men should avoid college because women will accuse them of things and they won't get a fair hearing. I'm so sick of it all.

 

That is a bit of a stretch. 

 

It's great that you have a supportive husband, I do too and it is wonderful to know I had the ability to teach my girls. :)

 

But homeschool dads are really not that much different than non-homeschool dads.  I have met nice supportive ones and creepy ones of both kinds. 

 

You don't say your kids ages, or at least I didn't see it, so I don't know how much you have dealt with teen girls (maybe you have, I dont know).  I have stated before that I have had run-ins with unreasonable adults, I have also had run-ins with overly dramatic teens. sigh...this girls story rings true to me.  I will give the dads the benefit of the doubt since the whole thing could have been Mrs. D's opinion not theirs.

 

On a side note...of the many many reasons to either go to college or avoid college fear of false accusations of rape isn't even on the list. 

[EowynR]

This seems like very odd advice.

 

Certainly men are sometimes accused, by women, of "things" - sometimes things they have done and sometimes things they have not done. And the justice system is far from perfect, for men or for women.

 

But is it common in your social circles for this to happen, or is it a few stories in the news that have been widely publicized but that are hardly typical? Do these things happen often in everyday life, or is it because they are fairly unusual that they make the news?

 

And what is the college connection? There has been some discussion lately in the news about how colleges handle reports of assault, as well as how the military handles them, and whether they accurately report the corresponding statistics.

 

But I haven't seen anything arguing that the rates of innocent college men being falsely accused of "things" are so high that young men should actually avoid college enrollment.

 

Wise choices in obtaining a college education can seriously enhance a young man's ability to provide for his family over his lifetime. Choosing not to attend college should be done thoughtfully, not from possibly ill-informed or overblown fear. Not every college campus is a hotbed of partying leading to he said/she said morning after scenarios, and even at those that are it is possible to attend classes without the accompanying extra-curricular mayhem.

 

I hope, EowynR, if you are reading opinions that "men should avoid college because women will accuse them of things and they won't get a fair hearing", you will do so with a critical eye. If you have not experienced college yourself, you may wish to talk to some of the responsible young people you know who have, to see if their experience is on par with the atmosphere the things you've read have described. While everyone should take reasonable precautions to minimize risks of many kinds, in some cases avoiding one kind of risk leaves you vulnerable to another. In this case, the difference between the risk of being the victim of false allegations as a college man, compared to the risk of being the victim of false allegations as a man who is not attending college, is insignificant, and there are also risks in deciding to avoid obtaining a college degree. There are many good paths that do not involve college, of course, but fear of false accusations is not a good reason to choose that direction.

 

I'm a college graduate and I'm widely read on the subject of campus rights and on the issues that are facing men on campus. I have two daughters and a son -- I think the former are going to be safer from false accusations than the latter. I don't form opinions based on talking to a few people.

 

I think my case is made by the slanderous accusations of the women who piled on in this whole thread. They accused the dads of grotesque leering, patriarchal, perverse behavior based on the testimony of a teenager without a shred of evidence. I am so saddened and disturbed that women who value critical thinking would do this.

 

http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2014/04/the_white_house_joins_the_war_.html

 

[Denise in Florida]

My husband works his ass off too so that we can homeschool. He is an awesome husband and father. And yet he still manages to understand that he is responsible for his own boners. I mean, I do try to take an interest of course, but ultimately he is responsible. And he manages to be good with that even while working at a university where he must interact with beautiful and even sometimes, gasp, sexy young coeds.

 

I already "liked" it, but I feel this post needs special acknowledgement.  :wub:

[Denise in Florida]

This seems like very odd advice.

 

Certainly men are sometimes accused, by women, of "things" - sometimes things they have done and sometimes things they have not done. And the justice system is far from perfect, for men or for women.

 

But is it common in your social circles for this to happen, or is it a few stories in the news that have been widely publicized but that are hardly typical? Do these things happen often in everyday life, or is it because they are fairly unusual that they make the news?

 

And what is the college connection? There has been some discussion lately in the news about how colleges handle reports of assault, as well as how the military handles them, and whether they accurately report the corresponding statistics.

 

But I haven't seen anything arguing that the rates of innocent college men being falsely accused of "things" are so high that young men should actually avoid college enrollment.

 

Wise choices in obtaining a college education can seriously enhance a young man's ability to provide for his family over his lifetime. Choosing not to attend college should be done thoughtfully, not from possibly ill-informed or overblown fear. Not every college campus is a hotbed of partying leading to he said/she said morning after scenarios, and even at those that are it is possible to attend classes without the accompanying extra-curricular mayhem.

 

I hope, EowynR, if you are reading opinions that "men should avoid college because women will accuse them of things and they won't get a fair hearing", you will do so with a critical eye. If you have not experienced college yourself, you may wish to talk to some of the responsible young people you know who have, to see if their experience is on par with the atmosphere the things you've read have described. While everyone should take reasonable precautions to minimize risks of many kinds, in some cases avoiding one kind of risk leaves you vulnerable to another. In this case, the difference between the risk of being the victim of false allegations as a college man, compared to the risk of being the victim of false allegations as a man who is not attending college, is insignificant, and there are also risks in deciding to avoid obtaining a college degree. There are many good paths that do not involve college, of course, but fear of false accusations is not a good reason to choose that direction.

 

Very well said

[Greta]

Yes, perceptions are a bummer and unfair, but sometimes you have to deal with them and decide if you want that perception applied to you.

So true.

 

You handled that situation so well!

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I'm a college graduate and I'm widely read on the subject of campus rights and on the issues that are facing men on campus. I have two daughters and a son -- I think the former are going to be safer from false accusations than the latter. I don't form opinions based on talking to a few people.

 

I think my case is made by the slanderous accusations of the women who piled on in this whole thread. They accused the dads of grotesque leering, patriarchal, perverse behavior based on the testimony of a teenager without a shred of evidence. I am so saddened and disturbed that women who value critical thinking would do this.

 

http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2014/04/the_white_house_joins_the_war_.html

 

You think your son is more at risk of a false accusation than your daughters are of...what? False accusations?  If that is what you are saying (which is really weird and kind of odd to put out there), then I guess I agree.

If you are trying to say your son is more at risk of a false accusation than your daughters are of being sexually assaulted, you are so monumentally wrong that I can't even quantify it in my mind.

 

And no, your "case" isn't made by anything said in this thread.  At no point have all homeschool dads been slandered.  What you have read is that many of us would not be surprised to hear that what was said to Clare is true, and yes, that many of us do have a low opinion of those in the patriarch movement who obsessively focus on the bodies of women and girls.  Frankly, our case is better supported than yours thanks to the revelations about some of the leaders of that movement.  (Doug Phillips anyone?)

 

And finally, the next time you decide to slam the critical thinking skills of others, I would suggest not following up with a link to a site with serious bias issues.

[Denise in Florida]

Rivka, you hit the nail on the head! The obsession with sex elevates it to a level of supremacy at any event for people who subscribe to this worldview. Like you, I have chosen not to be a part of that mindset and the people I generally encounter are healthy in their attitudes towards sex and we don't have issues.

 

But, there are many ultra conservative homeschool groups and churches in the area and it's really sad how they make sex the over riding, obsessive issue for every, single, event. They force the focus on it and make it a big, huge hairy deal when the kids wouldn't even be having a problem if it weren't for the freaky adults around them that see problems where none exist.

 

But, it's a small community so despite not running with that crowd, I can't help but end up once in a while dealing with them since we are 4-H leaders. Yikes! 95 degrees outside at the county fair and their daughters are working with big, huge steers in ankle length denim skirts and long sleeve shirts while the mothers complain that of course their daughters have to dress like that in the heat or the boys will be leering and then running off to masturbate in a dark corner. The program director and I just want to throttle them. Of course, the boys are busy hosing off their beasts, mucking out - one of the least sexy things you can do as a teen - feeding them, keeping track of their market books, and practicing showmanship with the animal in hopes of making grand champion or reserve. Ever wrestle with your very large meat turkey? You aren't scoping out the chicks in that ve be. I mean it is seriously mental. We've had to kick a few of these families out of 4-H because they are so offensive to the other girls.

 

sorry, that turn of phrase made me spit my coffee.  :leaving:

maybe I've spent too much time on this thread. 

[JuanitaL]

 Ever wrestle with your very large meat turkey?

 

Is that a euphemism?

 

ETA: well, crap. Now I feel as if I'm going to have to keep pointing out that I didn't read the posts prior to mine when I happen to repeat something that someone else already said.

[Jenny in Florida]

Maybe I'm more attuned to lowbrow humor 'cause my bOOks are so big that even in this Gap t-shirt I've got on, I can't avoid having plenty of *gasp* cleavage, so my IQ must be very low as my gray matter has been sucked from my brain to my chest, and I should probably just give up and go buy a trailer now...

 

Okay, on the purported link between large bOOks and IQ, I offer this anecdotal evidence:

 

My daughter attended an early entrance college program. The program accepts girls from about age 12 or 13 through 16. Obviously, we're talking a collection of very bright young women. 

 

One of the weird things my daughter noticed while she was there is that an unusually large number of the girls happened to be, well, unusually large. My own kid is no slouch in this regard, having to venture to the double-letter edge of the rack when bra shopping. However, she was far from the best endowed in the group. Many of the girls had to special order undergarments because it was impossible to find appropriate sizes in normal stores. More than one of the group was planning on reduction surgery once they were of age.

 

It was, honestly, very odd.

 

So, based on this admitted anecdotal "evidence," I would suggest that your cleavage might actually argue for an IQ as large as your chest.

[Jenny in Florida]

:huh:

I  .  . .  am TRYING to control . . .  myself.

 

Wrestling your very large meat turkey  

 

:lol:  :w00t:  :smilielol5:  :rofl:  :willy_nilly: 

 

My new favorite self-love euphanism ever!!

 

 

 

Wrestling the meat turkey is, indeed, pretty great, but I can't believe you all missed this one:

 

 

 Of course, the boys are busy hosing off their beasts, 

[Erin]

But, it's a small community so despite not running with that crowd, I can't help but end up once in a while dealing with them since we are 4-H leaders. Yikes! 95 degrees outside at the county fair and their daughters are working with big, huge steers in ankle length denim skirts and long sleeve shirts while the mothers complain that of course their daughters have to dress like that in the heat or the boys will be leering and then running off to masturbate in a dark corner. The program director and I just want to throttle them. Of course, the boys are busy hosing off their beasts, mucking out - one of the least sexy things you can do as a teen - feeding them, keeping track of their market books, and practicing showmanship with the animal in hopes of making grand champion or reserve. Ever wrestle with your very large meat turkey? You aren't scoping out the chicks in that moment. I mean it is seriously mental. We've had to kick a few of these families out of 4-H because they are so offensive to the other girls.

 

This is seriously what they've said??  How very bizarre.

 

I've known quite a few strict Pentecostals, and Mennonite families over the years (both sects tend toward long skirts) and I've never heard that one.  It's usually "it's for modesty", "it's how we set ourselves apart" or "it's an outward show of respect for God"...that sort of thing.  

Basically the same reasons you hear from Orthodox Jews, the Amish or Muslims.   

[Rebel Yell]

Rivka, you hit the nail on the head! The obsession with sex elevates it to a level of supremacy at any event for people who subscribe to this worldview. Like you, I have chosen not to be a part of that mindset and the people I generally encounter are healthy in their attitudes towards sex and we don't have issues.

 

But, there are many ultra conservative homeschool groups and churches in the area and it's really sad how they make sex the over riding, obsessive issue for every, single, event. They force the focus on it and make it a big, huge hairy deal when the kids wouldn't even be having a problem if it weren't for the freaky adults around them that see problems where none exist.

 

But, it's a small community so despite not running with that crowd, I can't help but end up once in a while dealing with them since we are 4-H leaders. Yikes! 95 degrees outside at the county fair and their daughters are working with big, huge steers in ankle length denim skirts and long sleeve shirts while the mothers complain that of course their daughters have to dress like that in the heat or the boys will be leering and then running off to masturbate in a dark corner. The program director and I just want to throttle them. Of course, the boys are busy hosing off their beasts, mucking out - one of the least sexy things you can do as a teen - feeding them, keeping track of their market books, and practicing showmanship with the animal in hopes of making grand champion or reserve. Ever wrestle with your very large meat turkey? You aren't scoping out the chicks in that moment. I mean it is seriously mental. We've had to kick a few of these families out of 4-H because they are so offensive to the other girls.

I'm a licensed Cosmetologist.  I can give that huge hairy deal a Brazilian.  Really- just wax on, wax off. :leaving:

[*Lulu*]

I'm a licensed Cosmetologist. I can give that huge hairy deal a Brazilian. Really- just wax on, wax off. :leaving:

Thank you.

 

The IPad screen needed cleaning and getting my coffee off it was just the motivation I needed!

[EowynR]

You think your son is more at risk of a false accusation than your daughters are of...what? False accusations?  If that is what you are saying (which is really weird and kind of odd to put out there), then I guess I agree.

If you are trying to say your son is more at risk of a false accusation than your daughters are of being sexually assaulted, you are so monumentally wrong that I can't even quantify it in my mind.

 

And no, your "case" isn't made by anything said in this thread.  At no point have all homeschool dads been slandered.  What you have read is that many of us would not be surprised to hear that what was said to Clare is true, and yes, that many of us do have a low opinion of those in the patriarch movement who obsessively focus on the bodies of women and girls.  Frankly, our case is better supported than yours thanks to the revelations about some of the leaders of that movement.  (Doug Phillips anyone?)

 

And finally, the next time you decide to slam the critical thinking skills of others, I would suggest not following up with a link to a site with serious bias issues.

 

It's not weird and odd at all - I stand by the comment that there's a danger than men will not receive due process on college campuses.

 

I absolutely think there's a danger for rape, but what I clearly said was the danger of false accusations. Men in these circumstances are guilty until proven innocent - and I stick by my claim that many of the women here proved that very well. There are young men whose lives were ruined by college accusations, and campus justice is not in their favor. Some are calling for these cases to be tried in real courts rather than on campus.

 

Is the "Boston Globe" liberal (therefore unbiased) enough for you? http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/05/13/colleges-can-play-cop-sexual-assault-investigations/rDhDhyMhkfNoWhc76bFTtO/story.html

 

All of the news media and liberal sites like Wonkette are piling on about the men and boys in this story.

 

This young woman accused the men of "ogling" her. This is subjective and hearsay.

 

Purportedly, only a WOMAN talked to this girl. She likely made up the story about the men and boys having impure thoughts to bolster her case.

 

Why does everyone here assume that these men at this dance in particular were in the patriarchy movement?

 

Sites with serious bias issues? The sites that are now slamming homeschooling dads as perverted patriarchs all have serious bias issues.

 

I refuse to engage in men-bashing, and I especially feel for the homeschooling dads who gave up their time to attend a high school dance and now are being called names throughout the whole world without the ability to defend themselves. I'm thankful my husband wasn't there.

 

[myfunnybunch]

 If you think about sexuality as a normal part of the human experience, rather than something to constantly police and obsess about, then sexuality is just that: a normal, not overwhelming, not dangerous or destructive part of human experience.

 

I wish I could like this 1000 times.

 

Cat

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

It's not weird and odd at all - I stand by the comment that there's a danger than men will not receive due process on college campuses.

All of the news media and liberal sites like Wonkette are piling on about the men and boys in this story.

 

This young woman accused the men of "ogling" her. This is subjective and hearsay.

 

Purportedly, only a WOMAN talked to this girl. She likely made up the story about the men and boys having impure thoughts to bolster her case.

 

Why does everyone here assume that these men at this dance in particular were in the patriarchy movement?

 

Sites with serious bias issues? The sites that are now slamming homeschooling dads as perverted patriarchs all have serious bias issues.

 

I refuse to engage in men-bashing, and I especially feel for the homeschooling dads who gave up their time to attend a high school dance and now are being called names throughout the whole world without the ability to defend themselves. I'm thankful my husband wasn't there.

 

 

Maybe the woman lied (possible, and has been acknowledged here), but maybe she didn't.  Is it out of the realm of possibility that a man steeped in patriarchy made that comment to Mrs. D? Absolutely not.

 

You do realize that the site you linked has a self-admitted agenda, right?  I also do not recall a single news site calling the dads in question perverted.

 

And just to be blunt, if you are seriously concerned that men are facing significant "danger" on college campuses due to false allegations of sexual assault, I would seriously suggest you branch out a bit in your reading.  Doing a bit of research regarding the number of sexual assaults reported college campuses, the number of times criminal proceedings take place, and the false report statistics for sexual assault may put your mind at ease a bit.

 

Finally, I find it very interesting that you are much more concerned that some "homeschooling dads" *may* be unfairly maligned here but have no concern whatsoever about the young lady, who I might add is being viciously attacked on a variety of sites (she is being called a whore/tramp/slut.)

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Is the "Boston Globe" liberal (therefore unbiased) enough for you? http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014/05/13/colleges-can-play-cop-sexual-assault-investigations/rDhDhyMhkfNoWhc76bFTtO/story.html

 

 

You do realize that was an opinion piece, right?

 

And FTR, the complaint many of us have made regarding sexual assaults on college campuses is that the crimes are often not reported to non-campus police.  So yes, we are in agreement that the proceedings need to be removed from the campuses where administrators have a vested interest in keeping crimes on campus hush hush.

[Rebel Yell]

:grouphug: I believe that there is a way to teach girls a healthy amount of modesty, free of any shame or blame. (I'm not saying I've discovered the secret, but that I believe it's possible.) Don't heap guilt upon yourself, because if you were teaching them modesty without all of the underlying patriarchy stuff, I doubt that you did them any harm. And I don't know how old they are (forgot to check your sig before I hit reply), but you most likely still have plenty of chances ahead of you to make a positive impact.

 

I believe that there is a healthy balance, that we can teach our daughters to dress in ways that are functional when they need to be and feminine when they want to be, without feeling pressured to let it all hang out and dress in an overtly sexual way. Now if someone could just teach me HOW to do that I'd be grateful! :) I've got it very easy with my 14yo dd. Her everyday wear is very tomboy (cargo shorts and graphic tees with images of her favorite video game characters - we shop in the boys department most of the time!) and when she does dress up she is drawn to very simple and classic looks (she adores Audrey Hepburn and wishes that she could dress in 1950's styles). So I'm certainly not saying I know how to guide a girl in the right direction - my girl has always just naturally gone in a direction that was entirely acceptable to me. If we butt heads sometime down the road, well I will need all the help and wisdom I can get.

 

:grouphug:  Thanks- my girls are 19, 14, & 12 now.  I *do* believe in DH as the head of the household- says so on our tax forms :lol:  but really, we're co-leaders- partners. We each have our strengths and work together to maximize them. But so much time was spent agonizing over whether a skirt was long enough for co-op, or if sleeves were long enough. I spent YEARS being told I wasn't good enough and that anything DH did wrong was MY fault.

 

Good thing I was a punk and a rebel in my younger years. I *thought* I was maturing and growing up- DH & I weren't Christian until Diamond was 2 yrs old. But then I realized that so much was wrong. My child wasn't beaving strangely because we had a Disney video in our home or because she wasn't in bed by 8pm, but because she reacts badly to FOOD DYES! That really was the turning point for me... not all issues were spiritual! And any "counseling" given to me by my pastor's wife (when did marriage to a pastor qualify someone to counsel? :cursing:  ) focused on making me more like HER, rather than improving/healing who *I* was, and it was NEVER about "meeting me where I was" but rather "Dragging me where they wanted me to be."

 

We've also learned to find balance. For dance recitals and show choir, costumes are often short dresses. But a costume for a show is not the same as what we'd wear to chuch, work, Prom, or a friend's graduation. We wear what is appropriate to the occasion. And each girl has her own style- one thing I learned from trying to be stuffed into a mold growing up was to let them be who they are. Diamond especially is great at wearing an edgy style without looking "harsh." 

 

And the funny thing?  Even after my relaxed attitude for clothing choices, not one of my girls has been asked out on a date. I never put a minimum age on dating, only briefly considered the courtship thing... but no boy-crazy girls in my house, and no boys rampaging at the door. :confused1:  Weird- because most of the covered-up courtship types have boyfriends, often secret ones. My girls have guys as buddies. Hmmm.... if I ever want to see them married, maybe I better go back to "Modest is Hottest." :glare:

 

[Word Nerd]

I can't believe how much media coverage that blog post is getting—not just on social media but on news stations. It's actually starting to make me wonder if the homeschooling angle is what is making it such a big story.

[kitten18]

You think your son is more at risk of a false accusation than your daughters are of...what? False accusations? If that is what you are saying (which is really weird and kind of odd to put out there), then I guess I agree.

If you are trying to say your son is more at risk of a false accusation than your daughters are of being sexually assaulted, you are so monumentally wrong that I can't even quantify it in my mind.

 

And no, your "case" isn't made by anything said in this thread. At no point have all homeschool dads been slandered. What you have read is that many of us would not be surprised to hear that what was said to Clare is true, and yes, that many of us do have a low opinion of those in the patriarch movement who obsessively focus on the bodies of women and girls. Frankly, our case is better supported than yours thanks to the revelations about some of the leaders of that movement. (Doug Phillips anyone?)

 

And finally, the next time you decide to slam the critical thinking skills of others, I would suggest not following up with a link to a site with serious bias issues.

Agree. Liking was not enough.

[justasque]

I'm starting to read more and more about how men should avoid college because women will accuse them of things and they won't get a fair hearing. I'm so sick of it all.

I'm a college graduate and I'm widely read on the subject of campus rights and on the issues that are facing men on campus. I have two daughters and a son -- I think the former are going to be safer from false accusations than the latter. I don't form opinions based on talking to a few people.

 

I think my case is made by the slanderous accusations of the women who piled on in this whole thread. They accused the dads of grotesque leering, patriarchal, perverse behavior based on the testimony of a teenager without a shred of evidence. I am so saddened and disturbed that women who value critical thinking would do this.

 

http://www.mindingthecampus.com/originals/2014/04/the_white_house_joins_the_war_.html

 

Your sons can dramatically minimize their risk of false accusations - and a myriad of other problems including STDs and unplanned pregnancy - by choosing not to participate in what your linked article calls the "growing prevalence of ambiguous and drunken encounters fueled by an anything-goes campus culture".

 

If you don't hook up with drunk girls you barely know, you're highly unlikely to end up with all the negative consequences that can ensue from such behavior.

 

This strategy, which works in all settings, not just college campuses, is much more likely to yield positive results over a man's lifetime than just avoiding a college education altogether from fear of negative fallout from encounters with intoxicated women.

[Mrs Mungo]

Your sons can dramatically minimize their risk of false accusations - and a myriad of other problems including STDs and unplanned pregnancy - by choosing not to participate in what your linked article calls the "growing prevalence of ambiguous and drunken encounters fueled by an anything-goes campus culture".

 

If you don't hook up with drunk girls you barely know, you're highly unlikely to end up with all the negative consequences that can ensue from such behavior.

 

This strategy, which works in all settings, not just college campuses, is much more likely to yield positive results over a man's lifetime than just avoiding a college education altogether from fear of negative fallout from encounters with intoxicated women.

And staying away from frat parties in which the system sets up an impossible standard, then encourages students to incriminate themselves so that individual students will be hit with the blame/lawsuit/arrest instead of the frat getting in trouble.

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/02/the-dark-power-of-fraternities/357580/

[Mom in High Heels]

11 am and I'm out of likes AGAIN!  Damn.  

 

 

 

 

Bingo - from an insider's perspective. I have had to "talk down" a few women who were utterly shocked when their teens began to exhibit developmentally appropriate interest in sex. In one case, I specifically remember when I spoke at length to one woman who simply could not understand that her son was a sexual being - that this was (from my perspective) something that God created him with, and that it is a good thing to see developmentally appropriate milestones. 

 

It's really kind of scary. 

 

That is scary.  They will grow into adults and their bodies will be sexually active (most of them anyway).  Why is that shocking??

 

Man, if only I'd known that cleavage subtracted IQ points ... I could have finished my PhD so much faster if I didn't wear low-cut outfits.

 

 

I'm a licensed Cosmetologist.  I can give that huge hairy deal a Brazilian.  Really- just wax on, wax off. :leaving:

 

OMG, you are hilarious.  Of course now I'm thinking of Mr. Miagi giving Brazilians.  Ewww.

 

 

 

We sure to a lot of spitting on our electric devices!  FTR, I have a cover over my keyboard, to prevent spewing liquid accidents.  I killed my previous computer by knocking over a cup of hot tea, so I'm very protective of my macbook.  It's a good thing too, because I'm certain this board could have killed it.

[Elisabet1]

I think it is reasonable to have a dress code, and a behavior code. I know of at least one situation of a group of teen girls, young teen I think. I think they were maybe 9th graders. They went to the pool dressed in string bikinis that barely fit. They purposely waved themselves around, trying to be flirtatious. Finally, one of them saw an older man who had a camera. They did not even pay attention to what that man was doing, they called the police on him. They thought they were hot stuff, and they even made remarks about it and said the old man was a perv taking pictures of them. No one saw the man take pictures of them and the man claimed he was with his grandchildren and was taking pics of his own grandchildren. The police looked at his camera and saw...<gasp!> pictures of his young grandchildren at the pool.

 

I thought these girls were disgusting and it was horrible what they put this man through. They came trying to be flirtatious and simply concluded on their own that the older man must "want" them. This was the most drastic incident that I know all the details of. But I have seen similar incidents, minus the police, when at the public pool and such. 

 

SO...until the other side speaks up, I am not going to make judgements. I saw an article that claimed she was dressed in a "modern way." Skankiness has been around for centuries, so if she was being skanky (which, I don't know all the details) there is nothing modern about that. But since so many PEOPLE, girls and boys alike, seem to have little concern for appropriate public behavior, and this was a school event, it is completely reasonable to have limits. If someone is going to purposefully wave their body parts around, male or female, they should not get upset when someone else sees them, nor should they get upset when someone else draws conclusions as to why the person wanted to show off their parts. People don't typical show off their parts for innocent reasons, they generally are seeking the attention. And they do not like it when they get called out on it. It is no different than other attention seeking behavior. If a young man showed up with an outfit that showy, and starts dancing how she described her dancing "like a bad ass" I am sure he too would get asked to leave. Think Chip N'Dale look and dance at the prom. 

[Elisabet1]

This article talks about her cussing and flipping people off. She also apparently had been dancing, and had to keep pulling on her dress to keep it within the finger tip test. The dress does not sound like it fit the pre-printed dress code. And these were quotes from the girl.

 

http://wgntv.com/2014/05/14/teen-kicked-out-of-prom-over-short-dress-provocative-dancing/

 

And then in the blog post..she gave a different story from which she gave the news people. I bet the story just keeps changing...in her blog, she claims they behaved well...contrary to what she said in the news.

 

http://www.hannahettinger.com/fuck-the-patriarchy-guest-post-by-clare/#comment-1440

[Mrs Mungo]

I think it is reasonable to have a dress code, and a behavior code.

There was a dress code, and her dress fit within it. I saw no denial of that, even from the other side. If there is going to be a behavior code, it needs to be explicitly stated.

 

If a young man showed up with an outfit that showy, and starts dancing how she described her dancing "like a bad ass" I am sure he too would get asked to leave. Think Chip N'Dale look and dance at the prom.

One, she says she wasn't dancing. Other reports say the dancing had not started yet. Two, I think you mean Chippendale, I was wondering for a minute there what cartoon chipmunks had to do with anything.

 

This article talks about her cussing and flipping people off. She also apparently had been dancing, and had to keep pulling on her dress to keep it within the finger tip test. The dress does not sound like it fit the pre-printed dress code. And these were quotes from the girl.

That article says that the dancing had not started yet. It doesn't say *she* was cursing! it says other people from her group cursed *after* she was thrown out. She does admit flipping them off, *after* she was thrown out.it doesn't stay that she had to keep pulling it down, it says, "Clare says that at 5’9? everything looks shorter than it would on anyone else, but she complied with the organizer who Clare says wanted her to keep pulling down the dress."

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

 

And then in the blog post..she gave a different story from which she gave the news people. I bet the story just keeps changing...in her blog, she claims they behaved well...contrary to what she said in the news.

 

http://www.hannahettinger.com/fuck-the-patriarchy-guest-post-by-clare/#comment-1440

 

I am sorry, but I simply feel the need to declare shenanigans.  From the link to her blog YOU posted:

 

"When we walked out of the prom, frustrated and angry and feeling very disrespected and violated, some of the people in my group shouted profanities at the security guards, and I personally flipped them off. I putting this part in the story because I want everyone who reads this to know that we shouldn’t have reacted so immaturely to their unfair and disrespectful actions, and we’re all adult enough to admit that."

 

This is exactly what was in the other link you shared.  Her story did not change.

[Truscifi]

 

Your sons can dramatically minimize their risk of false accusations - and a myriad of other problems including STDs and unplanned pregnancy - by choosing not to participate in what your linked article calls the "growing prevalence of ambiguous and drunken encounters fueled by an anything-goes campus culture".

 

If you don't hook up with drunk girls you barely know, you're highly unlikely to end up with all the negative consequences that can ensue from such behavior.

 

This strategy, which works in all settings, not just college campuses, is much more likely to yield positive results over a man's lifetime than just avoiding a college education altogether from fear of negative fallout from encounters with intoxicated women.

 

 

Still no likes, so :iagree: .

 

Also, that article was an opinion piece, not a journalism piece which might be assumed to have at least a tenuous basis in provable fact.

[bettyandbob]

speaking of 9th graders at the public pool... I was at the neighborhood pool this week (it opened last weekend). During break one of the college aged lifeguards asked these two girls (both ninth graders) how old they were. He sort of knew them, but not really. They lied about their age. One of these girls I know well and I have never heard a truth come out of her mouth. I also know the lifeguard well. A while later, I happened to be near him mentioned their age. I told him I didn't think they were disruptive during break, but I didn't think girls in bikinis should lie to young men about their age. The lifeguard agreed with me. I've seen too many underage girls do this and then get themselves in situations they could not handle. And then all blame goes to the young men involved because they thought the girls were older. This situation does not need to involve s x to be a problem.

 

I've watched this girl flirt with older boys at the pool for a few summers now. The thing is now she looks the age she is claiming.

 

I don't know why some girls do this.

 

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

One, she says she wasn't dancing. Other reports say the dancing had not started yet. Two, I think you mean Chippendale, I was wondering for a minute there what cartoon chipmunks had to do with anything.

 

 

To be fair, those chipmunks don't wear pants with their formal wear.

[Mommyfaithe]

I know, Mrs. D! Poor, put upon, Mrs. D.

 

She should have told those grown men they were disgusting, though.

What a load of CRAP!!! Men like THAT would know better than to send a woman like me!! I am just shaking my head!! My dd is set to go to the prom in 2 weeks....and she looks GOOD! And if anyone gives her any sort of hard time they will have MOM and BF MOM to deal with!!!

 

BTW, my oldest girls were shunned from a homeschool group for wearing ...GASP....denim jackets!! Because, well, we all know how sexy those are....GRRRRRRR!!!!! Talk about setting up a rape culture! Oh, boys, you can't control yourselves around all that denim! Ugh!!!! I feel even more sorry for the girls who fell in line with this stuff. They tied the line not to be bullied. They are now set to be bullied the rest of their lives and who will stand up for them?? And who in turn will THEY bully????

 

Ugh!! Just, UGH!!!!

[Mrs Mungo]

This article talks about her cussing and flipping people off. She also apparently had been dancing, and had to keep pulling on her dress to keep it within the finger tip test. The dress does not sound like it fit the pre-printed dress code. And these were quotes from the girl.

 

http://wgntv.com/2014/05/14/teen-kicked-out-of-prom-over-short-dress-provocative-dancing/

 

And then in the blog post..she gave a different story from which she gave the news people. I bet the story just keeps changing...in her blog, she claims they behaved well...contrary to what she said in the news.

 

http://www.hannahettinger.com/fuck-the-patriarchy-guest-post-by-clare/#comment-1440

The story is exactly the same in both of your links. Even down to this bit:

"When we walked out of the prom, frustrated and angry and feeling very disrespected and violated, some of the people in my group shouted profanities at the security guards, and I personally flipped them off."

 

There is additional information in the original blog post, but the story has not changed at all from one to the other (although the news story gets it wrong by saying that it was in a church).

[Mrs Mungo]

To be fair, those chipmunks don't wear pants with their formal wear.

*faints*

[Belacqua]

To be fair, those chipmunks don't wear pants with their formal wear.

 

But for the actor inside the costume, we have to admit it's a pretty modest outfit. Covers literally everything...tough to argue with that. So maybe a prom requiring mascot suits? Because that sounds wholesome.

[goldberry]

I have two daughters and a son -- I think the former are going to be safer from false accusations than the latter.

 

Yes, but which one is more likely to be sexually assaulted?

 

I'm not saying false accusations are ok and shouldn't be addressed, but I hardly consider the two comparable.

[elegantlion]

But for the actor inside the costume, we have to admit it's a pretty modest outfit. Covers literally everything...tough to argue with that. So maybe a prom requiring mascot suits? Because that sounds wholesome.

 

My high school mascot was the Trojans, you can only imagine the jokes.  :lol:

[goldberry]

    

. Two, I think you mean Chippendale, I was wondering for a minute there what cartoon chipmunks had to do with anything.

 

 

:lol:  :lol:  :lol:   Ok, that's just hilarious....

[Kathryn]

The story is exactly the same in both of your links. Even down to this bit:

"When we walked out of the prom, frustrated and angry and feeling very disrespected and violated, some of the people in my group shouted profanities at the security guards, and I personally flipped them off."

 

There is additional information in the original blog post, but the story has not changed at all from one to the other (although the news story gets it wrong by saying that it was in a church).

Everything I read stated that the event is held in the gym of a Methodist church.

[Mom in High Heels]

To be fair, those chipmunks don't wear pants with their formal wear.

 

Now we're talking!  Woowoo!  Donald does't wear bottoms either,  yet Mickey does.  Perhaps Mickey is more modest?  He should talk to Daisy and Minnie though.  Their dresses are FAR too short.  Whores.  They're just asking for it.  ;)

 

I am glad that the girl admitted to their bad behavior.  It's more than any of the adults involved have done, and I'm fairly certain they weren't terribly proper in the handling of this situation.  Telling her none of her friends could be around as witnesses is suspicious.  If the dress didn't meet the dress code requirements, they should have denied her entrance, not kicked her out AFTER the fact.

[Aura]

If the dress didn't meet the dress code requirements, they should have denied her entrance, not kicked her out AFTER the fact.

This!! Exactly why I think the greater wrong was committed by the adults!!

[eternalsummer]

Still no likes, so :iagree: .

 

Also, that article was an opinion piece, not a journalism piece which might be assumed to have at least a tenuous basis in provable fact.

 

I agree; it is the same as the advice to young college women - don't go to parties and get drunk, and you will be dramatically less likely to be raped while passed out drunk.

[unsinkable]

I think Clare has a common adolescent trait of thinking there is an imaginary audience watching her. Her words, "you definitely would look twice when I walked through a doorway" and "We were also a little grossed out by all the dads on the balcony above the dance floor, ogling and talking amongst themselves."

 

I also think there was a reason she used quotes for her first conversation (when she entered) with Mrs.D, meaning she felt confident that she was relaying exact words but did not use quotes when she was relaying the conversation about her dancing seductively. I think she was too upset and angry to remember exactly what said. She then goes back to using quotes. It says to me that the portion that wasn't quoted could be more about Clare's impression of the conversation, not what was actually said.

 

And then the ending, "And enough with the slut shaming. Please. Goddamn I’m not responsible for some perverted 45 year old dad lusting after me because I have a sparkly dress on and a big as$ for a teenager."

 

Where did all these details come from? The 45 year old man lusting and her big as$? Is this more of her egocentrism/imaginary audience?

[Mrs Mungo]

I think Clare has a common adolescent trait of thinking there is an imaginary audience watching her. Her words, "you definitely would look twice when I walked through a doorway" and "We were also a little grossed out by all the dads on the balcony above the dance floor, ogling and talking amongst themselves."

 

I also think there was a reason she used quotes for her first conversation (when she entered) with Mrs.D, meaning she felt confident that she was relaying exact words but did not use quotes when she was relaying the conversation about her dancing seductively. I think she was too upset and angry to remember exactly what said. She then goes back to using quotes. It says to me that the portion that wasn't quoted could be more about Clare's impression of the conversation, not what was actually said.

 

And then the ending, "And enough with the slut shaming. Please. Goddamn I’m not responsible for some perverted 45 year old dad lusting after me because I have a sparkly dress on and a big as$ for a teenager."

 

Where did all these details come from? The 45 year old man lusting and her big as$? Is think more of her egocentric/imaginary audience?

Oh, I wouldn't deny at all that she comes across as arrogant, egocentric, etc. I just don't think that plays into the bottom line.

[Elisabet1]

where did it say people saw her underwear?

 

The way the straps are cut--high across the shoulder--it does not seem likely that lifting of the arms would actually lift the dress up. If the dress had sleeves or the straps sat on the edge of the shoulder more I could see arm movement lifting the dress up. Based on my own knowledge of physics and dressmaking (I do have some experience with both), I'm not seeing arm movement lifting the dress.

 

So did an article actually say underwear was seen? Was it stated that someone thought underwear would be seen in the article? Or did someone on this board come up with that idea.

 

 

 

Showing underwear doesn't matter, except a chaperone could say the dress must be fingertip length at all times, so please refrain from swinging your arms in the air.

I saw a picture online where you could see her bra. I know I saw an article that said the dress was riding up to show undergarments. Google her name and you can see more on the subject.

[Elisabet1]

I think Clare has a common adolescent trait of thinking there is an imaginary audience watching her. Her words, "you definitely would look twice when I walked through a doorway" and "We were also a little grossed out by all the dads on the balcony above the dance floor, ogling and talking amongst themselves."

 

I also think there was a reason she used quotes for her first conversation (when she entered) with Mrs.D, meaning she felt confident that she was relaying exact words but did not use quotes when she was relaying the conversation about her dancing seductively. I think she was too upset and angry to remember exactly what said. She then goes back to using quotes. It says to me that the portion that wasn't quoted could be more about Clare's impression of the conversation, not what was actually said.

 

And then the ending, "And enough with the slut shaming. Please. Goddamn I’m not responsible for some perverted 45 year old dad lusting after me because I have a sparkly dress on and a big as$ for a teenager."

 

Where did all these details come from? The 45 year old man lusting and her big as$? Is this more of her egocentrism/imaginary audience?

I think it is more of her imaginary audience. In one place she states that she was calm and nice as her friends were. In another she admits to cussing and flipping people off. She definitely felt she was hot stuff and wanted to flaunt it. All circumstantial evidence. And from everything, it sounds like all the "men lusting after her" comes from her. She claims the dads were all lusting after her. But the only remarks she admits to being made were by a woman coordinator that the dress was too short and about impure thoughts. But she never said the coordinator said the dads were having impure thoughts.

 

Frankly, I think she sounds like someone who should have been kicked out. And I am guessing that the people who run the prom are not going to respond because they don't want to get in to mud slinging.