How do you know what you believe?

[Hoot]

I'll think on the first part and get back to you!  Off to a parish dinner tonight. 

 

I had never, ever heard the idea before that a church believed itself to be the original early church, so I guess not on my part.  I realize others took a better look at history than I did in this regard.  My comment was historically speaking (timeline wise). Objectively speaking, I think one has to admit that it's either the Roman Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church that is the original early church with direct historical (apostolic) ties to the New Testament church. All others are spinoffs (break offs) from those two.  I actually learned that point here on this board from a very non-believing (atheist) person. Those two used to be one and the same, but in the late first millennium or so (with the final break coming in 1054), they split from each other.  The Roman Catholics would now say they're the early church and the Orthodox broke off form them, and the Orthodox would say the Roman Catholic Church stepped away from the original Orthodox church.  Either way, it was one of the two.  Now, most churches/denominations today -- those that broke off -- do admittedly believe theirs is the right interpretation of what the church is supposed to be like (which I respect wholeheartedly, just disagree with).  I hope that makes sense without sounding snobby or anything. I don't feel that way at all but I don't get my usual "reread and edit for clarity and kindness" moment right now -- I have to get Friday for the dinner. 

 

Back later to answer the first. 

 

I understand exactly what you're saying, and I think you are right - not every denomination thinks they were the originals, but they do think that they are the right version.  Thank you. 

 

[Saddlemomma]

First of all, I don't view Christianity as a "religion".  I view it as a way of life.

 

Unfortunately, because of so many different worldviews, Christianity means different things to different people.  It's hard to point out who is what they actually claim to be.  Someone may claim to be Christian, but their lifestyle doesn't reflect the principles of Christianity and there is no fruit to prove it.  Some create their own brand of Christianity by choosing which doctrines to follow and figure if they don't like the others, they can just skip them.  Unfortunately, you can't really be "partly" Christian.

 

In addition, many skeptics have never met true Christians. Many skeptics have no clue what the Bible really says.  Many Christians, as well as skeptics, misquote the Bible, misinterpret the Bible, and/or take the Bible out of context.

 

As far as knowing what I believe, I have to approach it this way: what is the most reasonable explanation for the existence of the universe, man, and how we got here.  Notice I said reasonable.  Neither the skeptic nor the Christian can definitively prove how the universe came to be, how old it is, or where man came from.  We can only interpret known facts from information collected in the here and now.  We cannot travel into the past to see how it all actually happened. So for me, faith in my belief is based upon reason -- not blind faith.
 

By taking that approach, I then look at the reasons I have for believing what I do and then look at the alternative.  In my journey, I came to the conclusion that Christianity provided me with the most reasonable explanations I was looking for.

 

Do I believe in the big bang?  Yes, but I also believe that the big bang needs a big banger.  I cannot subscribe to the idea that a tiny singularity popped out of nothing; that to me is unreasonable based upon the philosophical law of causality.  Plus, as far as I know, no one, since the beginning of time, has ever reported to have witnessed something popping out of thin air - nothing.  Someone else may see that differently, and that's fine.  I just can't subscribe to something from nothing.  Therefore, to me it's totally reasonable that a higher intelligence created and that creation caused what we see today.

 

Objective Morality requires a moral law giver.  It is not instinctive. This one will probably get me in trouble, but I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone and these are my views; not necessarily someone else's.  Morality is either objective (object) or subjective (subject).  Either there is something about the object that makes the claim either true or false; or there is something about the subject - the person speaking/the individual - that grounds whether or not the claim is subjectively true or false.  Subjective truths are the personal preferences of a subject.  Objective truths are facts about an object that is outside the subject.  They are true whether anyone believes them or not. 

 

Romans 2 says that God's law is written on every human heart.  This is what philosophers call moral intuition. 

An example:  Torturing babies is fun.  I would expect everyone to say that this statement is morally reprehensible and incorrect.  This is a clear-cut example of an objective moral truth.  Now someone who doesn't believe in objective moral truths can only appeal to subjective morality. Here are the problems with subjective morality:

• The person who subscribes to subjective morality can never complain about the problem of evil because that assumes an objective moral framework.
• They would have to assume absurd conclusions such as there's no difference between loving your children and torturing them because without an objective moral standard there's no way to distinguish between the two actions.
• They would have no basis to complain about any wrongs done to them because rights and wrongs are subjective.  I may like your wallet so I'm going to take it because for me, it's right to take something I want from anyone I want.

Can the skeptic know objective moral truth?  Yes.  Can the skeptic ground objective moral truth?  No because they believe that morality - good & evil, right & wrong - are merely human inventions. Many skeptics point to basic animal instincts as the source of objective morality.  This presents a problem.  The lion doesn't consider whether a baby gazelle is just a baby and shouldn't be eaten.  It doesn't skip over the disabled.  If a lion wants to take over a pride, it kills indiscriminately to achieve it's goal.

 

I believe the best reasonable explanation for the existence of objective moral truth is that if an objective moral law exists independent of individual minds (which are subjective), then it must ultimately come from a Mind that exists independently of finite minds.  It is rationally  necessary to postulate such a Mind in order to account for the objective existence of moral laws.

 

There are many other reasons why I think Christianity is a reasonable way to view the world, and why I retain my faith in the midst of this increasingly relativistic world where you are ridiculed for not bowing down to the god of naturalism, humanism, atheism or other religions, but this would be way too long of a post.  Is it easy to be a Christian in today's world?  No, definitely not, but I'm not swayed by the other side at all despite the difficulties.

 

 

[elegantlion]

At this point, after being involved in church for years, I walked away from religion. I'm tired of the elevating of one person by pointing and judging another's faults. I realize that isn't what christianity is really, but that's what I saw in church and one break up ended badly. Despite the fact I was just a bystander, it soured my belief in the community of church. 

 

At that point I started studying other religions and even ancient history and literature and realized all those stories we were lead to be unique, we but a part of the world's stories. Why does christianity seem to be afraid of sharing stories like Gilgamesh (a flood story) in comparison to Noah, how about creation myths from around the world? If God created it all why are afraid share the non-christian parts in our journey? My parents are christian but non-religious and I have family members that would condemn me if they knew I read about Buddhism or the fact I own a Quran, even a few that wouldn't like the fact I have an academic study bible with all those "extra" books. There very much was an atmosphere that even studying beyond the Protestant bible was sinful. 

 

So, at this point, I still believe in God, a different incarnation than I did years ago, but still a divine creator. I've studied a bit about Buddhism and am attracted to the peace and tolerance. Fortunately, ds is on this journey with me and probably leans more agnostic. 

 

I also live in a small town, most of the community activities are through churches or schools, so our lives can seem isolating, but we are being true to ourselves. There is no UU church or we might try that. 

 

I have no clue where ds or I will end up faith wise. Right now I'm content with where we are. 

[Hoot]

Yeah, after studying a lot of history and reading those stories, why do we call those stories myths?  But the Christian stories are not myth?  Doesn't make sense to me.

 

Yes, Yes, YES!  This is a biggie for me.  It makes absolutely no sense.  Christian stories sound just as absurd as any other mythology out there.  What makes yours right and everyone else's wrong? 

[Quiver0f10]

First of all, I don't view Christianity as a "religion".  I view it as a way of life.

 

Unfortunately, because of so many different worldviews, Christianity means different things to different people.  It's hard to point out who is what they actually claim to be.  Someone may claim to be Christian, but their lifestyle doesn't reflect the principles of Christianity and there is no fruit to prove it.  Some create their own brand of Christianity by choosing which doctrines to follow and figure if they don't like the others, they can just skip them.  Unfortunately, you can't really be "partly" Christian.

 

In addition, many skeptics have never met true Christians. Many skeptics have no clue what the Bible really says.  Many Christians, as well as skeptics, misquote the Bible, misinterpret the Bible, and/or take the Bible out of context.

 

As far as knowing what I believe, I have to approach it this way: what is the most reasonable explanation for the existence of the universe, man, and how we got here.  Notice I said reasonable.  Neither the skeptic nor the Christian can definitively prove how the universe came to be, how old it is, or where man came from.  We can only interpret known facts from information collected in the here and now.  We cannot travel into the past to see how it all actually happened. So for me, faith in my belief is based upon reason -- not blind faith.

 

By taking that approach, I then look at the reasons I have for believing what I do and then look at the alternative.  In my journey, I came to the conclusion that Christianity provided me with the most reasonable explanations I was looking for.

 

Do I believe in the big bang?  Yes, but I also believe that the big bang needs a big banger.  I cannot subscribe to the idea that a tiny singularity popped out of nothing; that to me is unreasonable based upon the philosophical law of causality.  Plus, as far as I know, no one, since the beginning of time, has ever reported to have witnessed something popping out of thin air - nothing.  Someone else may see that differently, and that's fine.  I just can't subscribe to something from nothing.  Therefore, to me it's totally reasonable that a higher intelligence created and that creation caused what we see today.

 

Objective Morality requires a moral law giver.  It is not instinctive. This one will probably get me in trouble, but I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone and these are my views; not necessarily someone else's.  Morality is either objective (object) or subjective (subject).  Either there is something about the object that makes the claim either true or false; or there is something about the subject - the person speaking/the individual - that grounds whether or not the claim is subjectively true or false.  Subjective truths are the personal preferences of a subject.  Objective truths are facts about an object that is outside the subject.  They are true whether anyone believes them or not. 

 

Romans 2 says that God's law is written on every human heart.  This is what philosophers call moral intuition. 

An example:  Torturing babies is fun.  I would expect everyone to say that this statement is morally reprehensible and incorrect.  This is a clear-cut example of an objective moral truth.  Now someone who doesn't believe in objective moral truths can only appeal to subjective morality. Here are the problems with subjective morality:

• The person who subscribes to subjective morality can never complain about the problem of evil because that assumes an objective moral framework.
• They would have to assume absurd conclusions such as there's no difference between loving your children and torturing them because without an objective moral standard there's no way to distinguish between the two actions.
• They would have no basis to complain about any wrongs done to them because rights and wrongs are subjective.  I may like your wallet so I'm going to take it because for me, it's right to take something I want from anyone I want.

Can the skeptic know objective moral truth?  Yes.  Can the skeptic ground objective moral truth?  No because they believe that morality - good & evil, right & wrong - are merely human inventions. Many skeptics point to basic animal instincts as the source of objective morality.  This presents a problem.  The lion doesn't consider whether a baby gazelle is just a baby and shouldn't be eaten.  It doesn't skip over the disabled.  If a lion wants to take over a pride, it kills indiscriminately to achieve it's goal.

 

I believe the best reasonable explanation for the existence of objective moral truth is that if an objective moral law exists independent of individual minds (which are subjective), then it must ultimately come from a Mind that exists independently of finite minds.  It is rationally  necessary to postulate such a Mind in order to account for the objective existence of moral laws.

 

There are many other reasons why I think Christianity is a reasonable way to view the world, and why I retain my faith in the midst of this increasingly relativistic world where you are ridiculed for not bowing down to the god of naturalism, humanism, atheism or other religions, but this would be way too long of a post.  Is it easy to be a Christian in today's world?  No, definitely not, but I'm not swayed by the other side at all despite the difficulties.

 

This.I recently went through a crisis of faith and had to work backwards from what I found to be the most reasonable explanation for things such as creation, moral law and other things that I couldn't explain. . Doing this helped me to find out what I really believed. Once I came to the conclusion that the Biblical account of creation was the most reasonable explanation to me, the rest of Christianity fell into place. . I recommend reading Mere Christianity.

[Teannika]

Hi Contessa, this is my first post on the forum and I am quite new here, so apologies that I am commenting from quite an anonymous position. I have been reading through the threads on here each day all year. I haven't been posting because I've been quite unwell, and just haven't had energy for it.

 

 

I had something that I wanted to add to the thread in case it might be of a help to someone, yourself or another reader.

 

First of all my backgroud, very briefly, is that I was raised as a Christian, and I was also born again at a young age. As a child I attended a Baptist church many Sundays (we didn't always go and we weren't religious in these regards). As a teen/young adult I became depressed and started rebelling against God. I started to search for the "truth" and knew that not everything that I had learnt growing up had made complete sense to me. (I also wanted to make sure that I hadn't been brain-washed as a child etc.) I had about a seven year struggle with depression and finding my way in life until I gained a real and lasting peace. I was fortunate that I had been born again as a child or I may not have ended up where I am today. My spiritual experience/walk with God led to him having to discipline me, and in breaking me in until I came to a complete trust in him. It is easy now for me to reflect on the past and realise why I struggled so much, and why I had to go through the things that I did. It was the hardest time of my life, and I am full of praise to my Saviour that I will never be back there again.

 

I no longer attend a church. I am grieved by a lot of what I see in modern churches these days, so I feel quite comfortable in not being in the midst of that, nor having the pressure any more. (It was also how I found my way - by stepping out from "church." I decided to go straight to God himself.) However, I do believe that maintaining fellowship with other Christians is still important, so I haven't cut myself off. I just find alternatives for fellowship.

 

The part that I came to post about is just a simple comment to say that God says in his word that spiritual things are only spiritually discerned once a person is born again. He calls the person who has not yet been saved 'the natural man'. When a person becomes a born again Christian, as opposed to just using the label Christian, they are changed spiritually. The person's eyes become opened to things that they could not see or understand earlier. It is true that the individual can still be decieved in certain areas, but if they genuinly go to God and ask him, relying on him alone to provide it, He will show them that truth with proof's that the individual cannot deny and will know for certainty is true.

 

For the age we live in today the way we can know truth is through his inspired and preserved word. This was a great part of his plan, to give us all we needed to know in writing - a complete book. People can look outside of his word for answers, and they can try to induce spiritual experiences, but for us today his word will come to life and speak the truth to us, and it is all we need.

This is the verse that my comment is refering to -

'But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.' (1 Cor 2:14)

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

First of all, I don't view Christianity as a "religion". I view it as a way of life.

 

Unfortunately, because of so many different worldviews, Christianity means different things to different people. It's hard to point out who is what they actually claim to be. Someone may claim to be Christian, but their lifestyle doesn't reflect the principles of Christianity and there is no fruit to prove it. Some create their own brand of Christianity by choosing which doctrines to follow and figure if they don't like the others, they can just skip them. Unfortunately, you can't really be "partly" Christian.

 

In addition, many skeptics have never met true Christians. Many skeptics have no clue what the Bible really says. Many Christians, as well as skeptics, misquote the Bible, misinterpret the Bible, and/or take the Bible out of context.

I think you are extraordinarily mistaken about this. Many skeptics have *been* Christians - yes, "true" Christians. Many know their Bible better than three-quarters of their former pew-mates. Don't forget, it has been humans who wrote the words that are now Canonized into Scripture. Don't forget it is humans who decided what to canonize. Humans have extrapolated doctrine and have added traditional stories and interpretations to Scripture to give us whatever doctrinal beliefs you happen to hold. You may be absolutely convinced that the interpretation you believe is the one God intended, yet unless Michael descended into your bedroom and verified the Bible sitting on your nightstand, you are actually just one more person certain of their own interpretation. How can you be certain YOU are not the one misquoting or misinterpreting the Scriptures?

[Lady Florida.]

Then maybe that's your answer...you don't know. It's ok to not know. It's also ok to not know now and change your mind later. It's ok to leave Christianity for something else. It's ok to call yourself "spiritual, but not religious."

 

For me, it wasn't a conversion (btdt), but rather being true to myself. Once I did that, most of my angst went away. No more cognitive dissonance. No more qualifing, excusing, and ignoring.

 

Be you. Whatever that may be.

 

This. It's okay to explore other religions. It's okay to choose another one. It's also okay to discard as many as you think don't fit your beliefs. My journey from believer to unbeliever wasn't just one day I believed and the next I was an atheist. I read up on a variety of other beliefs and tried a few out. Eventually I determined that I don't believe in any supernatural beings, but I didn't get there in a straight line. For a long time I wasn't sure what I believed.

 

It's okay to not know. It's also okay to hold on to some beliefs (or find new ones) without calling yourself anything in particular or attending any kind of church services or meetings.

[mamaraby]

First of all, I don't view Christianity as a "religion". I view it as a way of life.

So did I once. Believed myself to be born again. Prayed the sinner's prayer and dedicated my life to Christian ministry. Sought god. Prayed regularly. Participated in Bible studies and personal devotions. Went to Moody Bible Institute. Got my degree which included extensive training in the Bible, theology, exegesis, apologetics, etc. It was a way of life and I genuinely believed. I was by every measure a "true" believer.

 

In addition, many skeptics have never met true Christians. Many skeptics have no clue what the Bible really says. Many Christians, as well as skeptics, misquote the Bible, misinterpret the Bible, and/or take the Bible out of context.

Ahhhh...No True Scotsman. Awesome.

 

Me today? Skeptic, atheist, and humanist. It wasn't because I took verses out of context, misinterpreted, misquoted. What you find reasonable, I ultimately found unconvincing and unreasonable.

 

You are entitled to your own faith journey and personal experience. You're also welcome to share what you believe with others, but stick to your beliefs. Don't misrepresent what skeptics believe. You don't like it when they do the same for you, I'm sure you can appreciate we might feel similar.

[Stacia]

This is just kind of a side note to this thread....

 

I enjoyed Bill Maher's Religulous -- his 'documentary' about religion. He's approaching it more from an agnostic/atheist point of view, but talks with many people of different faiths. I saw it in the theater (which was packed) & would say about half of the people there really enjoyed it, while the other half were deeply offended. (So just be forewarned if you are thin-skinned about religion, you may not even like the trailer....)

 

I thought he had some interesting questions that he posed & many things to say that I agreed with. Perhaps worth a watch while you ponder things...?

 

 

[Liz CA]

Have you decided if you are disappointed with Christ / God or disappointed with the Christian culture and other Christians? There is a difference. I support what Faith suggested. To read, to take time to ponder and to not let anyone else pressure you which may be easier said than done.

 

You may be able to tell your dh that you are digging deeper into what your faith is - it would not be a lie - but it may be a sufficient answer for him because it sounds like he is concerned about your struggle. This is common because he knows you as the woman you have been in faith and he may be worried who you could become if you both did not have a common base in this area.

 

God expects us to struggle and to seek. You are not offending Him whatever your thoughts are right now.

[Joanne]

First of all, I don't view Christianity as a "religion".  I view it as a way of life.

 

Unfortunately, because of so many different worldviews, Christianity means different things to different people.  It's hard to point out who is what they actually claim to be.  Someone may claim to be Christian, but their lifestyle doesn't reflect the principles of Christianity and there is no fruit to prove it.  Some create their own brand of Christianity by choosing which doctrines to follow and figure if they don't like the others, they can just skip them.  Unfortunately, you can't really be "partly" Christian.

 

In addition, many skeptics have never met true Christians. Many skeptics have no clue what the Bible really says.  Many Christians, as well as skeptics, misquote the Bible, misinterpret the Bible, and/or take the Bible out of context.

 

As far as knowing what I believe, I have to approach it this way: what is the most reasonable explanation for the existence of the universe, man, and how we got here.  Notice I said reasonable.  Neither the skeptic nor the Christian can definitively prove how the universe came to be, how old it is, or where man came from.  We can only interpret known facts from information collected in the here and now.  We cannot travel into the past to see how it all actually happened. So for me, faith in my belief is based upon reason -- not blind faith.

 

By taking that approach, I then look at the reasons I have for believing what I do and then look at the alternative.  In my journey, I came to the conclusion that Christianity provided me with the most reasonable explanations I was looking for.

 

Do I believe in the big bang?  Yes, but I also believe that the big bang needs a big banger.  I cannot subscribe to the idea that a tiny singularity popped out of nothing; that to me is unreasonable based upon the philosophical law of causality.  Plus, as far as I know, no one, since the beginning of time, has ever reported to have witnessed something popping out of thin air - nothing.  Someone else may see that differently, and that's fine.  I just can't subscribe to something from nothing.  Therefore, to me it's totally reasonable that a higher intelligence created and that creation caused what we see today.

 

Objective Morality requires a moral law giver.  It is not instinctive. This one will probably get me in trouble, but I mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone and these are my views; not necessarily someone else's.  Morality is either objective (object) or subjective (subject).  Either there is something about the object that makes the claim either true or false; or there is something about the subject - the person speaking/the individual - that grounds whether or not the claim is subjectively true or false.  Subjective truths are the personal preferences of a subject.  Objective truths are facts about an object that is outside the subject.  They are true whether anyone believes them or not. 

 

Romans 2 says that God's law is written on every human heart.  This is what philosophers call moral intuition. 

An example:  Torturing babies is fun.  I would expect everyone to say that this statement is morally reprehensible and incorrect.  This is a clear-cut example of an objective moral truth.  Now someone who doesn't believe in objective moral truths can only appeal to subjective morality. Here are the problems with subjective morality:

• The person who subscribes to subjective morality can never complain about the problem of evil because that assumes an objective moral framework.
• They would have to assume absurd conclusions such as there's no difference between loving your children and torturing them because without an objective moral standard there's no way to distinguish between the two actions.
• They would have no basis to complain about any wrongs done to them because rights and wrongs are subjective.  I may like your wallet so I'm going to take it because for me, it's right to take something I want from anyone I want.

Can the skeptic know objective moral truth?  Yes.  Can the skeptic ground objective moral truth?  No because they believe that morality - good & evil, right & wrong - are merely human inventions. Many skeptics point to basic animal instincts as the source of objective morality.  This presents a problem.  The lion doesn't consider whether a baby gazelle is just a baby and shouldn't be eaten.  It doesn't skip over the disabled.  If a lion wants to take over a pride, it kills indiscriminately to achieve it's goal.

 

I believe the best reasonable explanation for the existence of objective moral truth is that if an objective moral law exists independent of individual minds (which are subjective), then it must ultimately come from a Mind that exists independently of finite minds.  It is rationally  necessary to postulate such a Mind in order to account for the objective existence of moral laws.

 

There are many other reasons why I think Christianity is a reasonable way to view the world, and why I retain my faith in the midst of this increasingly relativistic world where you are ridiculed for not bowing down to the god of naturalism, humanism, atheism or other religions, but this would be way too long of a post.  Is it easy to be a Christian in today's world?  No, definitely not, but I'm not swayed by the other side at all despite the difficulties.

 

 

I'm pretty sure the question was how do you know what YOU believe.  Nearly every paragraph of your post is an answer to how I know what I believe; my visceral reaction to the rhetoric contained.

 

OP, I came to admit my (lack) of belief in stages. As the stages emerged, the pace accelerated and in the end of my deconversion from Christianity, I was graduating from an ecumenical Christian seminary with a Master's degree.

 

I had been a Christian - believing, active, involved, praying for years and years. And spent years and years praying to have the kind of faith that gave so many stability and direction.

 

The final stage was not worrying about salvation, the afterlife or godly judgment but variations on "what will the neighbors think." I live in a conversative suburb of Houston - you know by god Texas. I have 3 children and a prominent job here.

 

It wasn't a discovery so much as a reluctance admission of something I had known a very long time. In another thread (atheist, which is why I didn't answer, I am not an atheist), a person asked if Christians were the reason former Christians were, well, former. My answer is "no", the actual theology of Christianity is flawed. It requires an absurd faith. To me, as long as their is one hungry child, abused child, sexually molested child, there CAN NOT be a benevolent, loving, omnipotent, omniscient god. Period. Stop. End.

 

All of the predictable doctrine could not actually answer that for me. Either I had to pick and choose a god or believer literally. Both options eventually seemed ludicrous.

 

So, I admitted I believe positive energy is better than negative and that history and research bears out the utilitarian function of the discipline of meditation and that is my spirituality.

 

 

 

[Free]

I just don't know. I feel like I need to be able to put myself in a box before jumping ship, to be able to say with certainty THIS is what I believe. THIS is what I am. I mean, how do I defend "I don't know?"

 

So, how did you come to your current belief (or non-belief) system? I'm particularly interested in those who have left the faith that you grew up with for something entirely different. How do you de-program yourself from all of that dogma and unravel the strands of what YOU believe? I don't know where to go beyond, "I don't think I believe in the Christian God anymore."

 

I don't think anybody can say with certainty that they know one way or the other. People who do say with certainty that there is a god will also only provide with you with subjective and personal evidence.

 

It is for this reason that I called myself an agnostic for a long long time. How could I say with certainty that there is nothing out there outside of this observable universe?

 

On the other hand how could I be certain there is a god without having had any personal experience of god? I read others' experiences with the supernatural and even there I found I was very selective in believing some stories while rejecting others because they seemed too kooky. I think this is the reason why we easily reject contemporary stories of miracles while still believing that these things happened in the past. Most of us are unaware of our own cognitive dissonance.

 

I finally let go of my agnostic label and embraced the atheist label, when I was made to realize the inconsistency in my own thinking. I routinely reject hundreds of other ideas for the lack of evidence. I was not an agnostic when it came to ghosts, or the Loch Ness monster, or alien space ships. I expect evidence before I can believe, and yet I held god to a different standard.

 

Thankfully my deprogramming was not painful because the beliefs I held before were not dogmatic in nature.

[albeto.]

Can the skeptic know objective moral truth?  Yes.  Can the skeptic ground objective moral truth?  No because they believe that morality - good & evil, right & wrong - are merely human inventions. Many skeptics point to basic animal instincts as the source of objective morality.  This presents a problem.  The lion doesn't consider whether a baby gazelle is just a baby and shouldn't be eaten.  It doesn't skip over the disabled.  If a lion wants to take over a pride, it kills indiscriminately to achieve it's goal.

 

I would love to pick your brain about these ideas. Would you be interested in discussing this with me in a separate thread? 

[milovany]

Can I ask why?  I genuinely don't understand this line of thinking at all.  I would be absolutely thrilled to find that there was nothing beyond what is here and now - that I would be nothing more than fertilizer upon my death.  And please don't feel like I'm picking on you; that is not my intent at all.  I really am curious.     

 

I don't know, to be honest.  It means I'm not the master of my destiny (I'm not a very good master of my destiny).  It means there's a being that made me and loves me.  I guess I liken it to a mother and child -- I love these children that I created and I didn't create them to just live, then die. How much more with God and us.  With eternity, beauty, love, joy can go on forever.  I think of artists, in this respect.  They create something that's part of them, and they want their works to last forever, in a way. There's something inside us, in my experience, that wants to know, wants to touch forever. 

 

My grandmother was an atheist / humanist from early adulthood to about 10 years before her death at 99 (three years ago).  We talked many times via letters about this.  She believed this life was all there was.  Her mantra was to be kind to people, that's the fullness of what we are called to do.  In the last 10 years of her life, faced with impending death (not due to illness, but age), she turned more and more and more toward God. I saw her a year before she passed, and she was in a bit of a fog when I was there.  She kept crying out, "I want to go home! I want to go home!" She said she loved God and wanted to be with him.  I just found it to be an interesting journey.  Not conclusive evidence, I know, but still a picture of "eternity in our hearts." 

 

Just typing out some thoughts at midnight.  Don't know if they makes sense. 

[fraidycat]

I'm not entirely sure how I got to where I am today. Or really what to call myself besides non-committal spiritualist, maybe.

 

I don't believe in organized religion. Especially not any one in particular. I think there are many great things to be found in the teachings of most religions. For example, I refuse to identify as a Christian (dead/risen is not truth to me). However as a historical figure I do believe there was a Jesus and that he was a great man who did "hang with the weak, poor, sick", etc. so I can in all seriousness ask myself WWJD and try my hardest to be more inclusive and less judgmental. KWIM? I also think in theory the Buddhist teaching of love for ALL creatures (even bugs) is cool. In reality, bugs are cool - as long as they're outside, but I'm gonna squish, zap, or poison 'em if they're in my house!

 

I'm also open to learning about spirit guides, past lives, ghosts, etc - the beliefs of others. It fascinates me. And because I'm a "non-committal spiritualist" I don't ever have to define "what I do or do not believe" because it is subject to revision and expansion at any moment. ;)

[toawh]

When I started on my journey, a Christian friend gave me the following advice:

Free yourself to admit that you don't have faith in these beliefs. If God is real he will show you so and your faith will have been strengthened by the experience.

This same person shared with me that numerous Christians such as Hudson Taylor and other model Christians went through crises of faith, which gave them stronger convictions.

I still have not embraced Christianity, and I feel no pressure or interest to do so. There isn't a certain book I forgot to read or anything like that. If its meant to be it will be. I feel nothing is lost by my hiatus, even if it becomes permanent. 

[Papillon Mom]

I lost my faith freshman year at a Christian College... Very difficult and lonely times. I still read extensively about Christianity because it fascinates me but I am an atheist. How do I know what I believe? Well, it seems the most reasonable. I don't KNOW... No one does! If people want to hedge their bet wth the side that makes the scariest threats, great but I'm not a good enough bluffer to convince an omnipotent god that I believe, when I don't and can't make myself... Bart Ehrman's Misquoting Jesus and Sam Harris' Letter to a Christian Nation (very short and readable) are wonderful. Your husband and son will benefit from seeing that you are looking for answers and it might quell worries that you are in rebellion to God but rather on a quest for understanding.

Your question made me think of Sue Monk Kidd's book, The Dance of the Dissident Daughter. She had a remarkable faith journey that you may find interesting.

Pm me if you want an ear. You need to find someone you can safely talk to about your doubts without fear of lecture or judgement. You are not alone.

[Mom in High Heels]

I'm sorry you're going through this alone.  I won't say it was a hard decision for me, but James Bond and I are both on the same page, so there's no conflict. I can't imagine being under the pressure you are dealing with.

 

I don't know that I've ever really been a believer.  When I was younger, my parents were very religious (Baptist), and went to church every Wed night, twice on Sun and were in a Bible study group on another day.  The church had a school that I attended, and where my mother worked.  My dad was very active in volunteering with the high school age students, by tutoring and helping them with college applications, and was often the driver for field trips and college visits. One day, they just stopped going to church, my mom quit her job and I went to another school.  I'm pretty sure there was some sort of falling out with the pastor, but I don't really know, as I was only about 6, and I've never really felt the urge to ask.  I don't recall ever really going to church again until I was in about the 5th grade or so, when they put me another Baptist school.  We moved about a year later, and I don't thing they were ever regular church goers after that.  I went to a Catholic high school, which I loved, and we had mass every Friday and high Mass once a month.  I had to take 3 religion courses, and just found it all so utterly ridiculous.  Of course I kept these opinions to myself, but I'm pretty sure my religion teacher knew how I felt, based on questions I asked, papers I turned in and test answers I wrote (I got an A in all 3 classes though!).  

 

It's just never made sense to me, especially, like pp's have stated, there are so many similar myths that predate Christianity.  I have read the Bible, and it just seems like such a bizarre collection of stories and weird stuff that I simply can't believe it.  James Bond was raised Roman Catholic and went to church every Sunday, come hell or high water.  We were married in the church his where parents were married (back in the days when you still weren't allowed to kiss inside the church and had to have your first kiss outside the front door), and had a lovely service, but we did that more for our families than anything else.  JB was still on the fence, but I knew I was a non-believer.  I don't feel any sort of guilt over it.  In fact, I feel a great peace with it.  I suppose I feel free, if that makes sense.

 

We did have both boys christened, because they may grow up religious, and that's fine.  They can believe what they are comfortable with.  Indy started questioning it when he was around 5, and attending Catholic kindergarten.  He was constantly talking about how it just didn't seem possible that the stuff in the Bible could really happen.  We've never encouraged him, and have allowed him to go to church with my mom, but he said it's just not for him.  We have studied world religions, and he found it fascinating how much religions have in common (like the similar stories I mentioned above).  I have no idea what Han Solo will believe.  

 

My parents have both become "religious" in the past few years, and sometimes "get onto" me about not going to church.  We have not told them about our atheist status, as I'm sure they would probably go into apocalyptic fits, and who wants to deal with that?  My dad has become almost militant in the last few years, and I find it disturbing, because believe me, he does many things his particular brand of religion does not subscribe to.  My uncle is a deacon in a Baptist church that is against drinking, but he and my cousin get together every afternoon at 4pm for a "private party" involving lots of alcohol.  When my dad lived in his house (he rents it out now and moved to my stepmom's house after they got married), he would join the party.  They would all meet up at the property line, my dad's, uncle's and cousin's properties all border each other, with my dad's and cousin's being next to each other and my uncle's behind them.  Every day they would sit out there and drink and talk like sailors.  The hypocrisy really bothers me, but they're not hurting me, so whatever.

I don't know if this is making any sense.  It's 1am and I'm tired, so I should probably take myself to bed.  

 

Good luck in your search.

[Teannika]

"How do you know what you believe?"

 

I have two standouts that were evidence to me, backing up my belief in the God of the Bible. (I came to understand these things after my difficult period.)

 

1. Bible Prophecy. Not regarding the first coming so much, but more specifically to what we seeing going on in our world today. We were told that there was going to be a great falling away, and there is. And we were told that there would be a great division amongst believers and heresies entering in. The confusion of beliefs in today's churches simply confirms what the Bible predicted would happen.

Also watching the one world coming together getting set up for the Anti-Christ to arrive. It sounds crazy, but we can see the plan unfolding before our very eyes. Especially as we are told in the Bible that it will come under the guise of "peace and safety".
 

2. The Perfect Design of the Bible. There is evidence that the Bible has been perfectly designed. It is mathematically and structurally perfect. No man by himself could have constructed it. I am talking about the 'design aspect' only here. The way the canon of scripture was chosen and organised could not have been done deliberately by men who did not know each other to collaborate, who lived if not by hundreds of years, but by thousands of years apart.

 

[creekland]

My belief in God really settled in during my college years.  Before that we were sent to Sunday school at the nearest church so my parents could have their Sunday mornings off.  Later, when my parents divorced, they both started going to church (so we were dragged there) so they could prove to the courts that they were fit parents (different day and age than now).  Neither parent attends church now.  My dad will say he believes. My mom does not.

 

In college though (state school), I opted for religion classes for my humanities credits since I wasn't fond of art or music.  It caused me to really question all I'd been brought up with and taught.  So, I ended up doing my own thinking.

 

I need to go ALL the way back to the super beginning - before the Big Bang.  What was there to allow for the Big Bang?  It had to be some sort of cosmic "egg" (about to hatch out all the universe) or an Eternal Designer.  Being a science person, I simply can't fathom how something can come from nothing - I really can't. How'd the cosmic egg get there?  It's definitely easier for me to have faith in an Eternal Designer than it is to see something coming from nothing.  Plus, I see how everything else on earth, esp life, but not limited to that, appears to be designed rather than random.  (I'm ok with evolution, but I think it only works due to being a design plan as it really wouldn't work totally randomly.)

 

This solidified my belief in an Eternal Creator.  Others can choose differently, of course.  We all take "that part" on "faith" as NONE of us can prove anything.  I merely can't see something coming from nothing.  An Eternal Creator could be beyond time - and merely have created time for our universe/world.  He could have created that cosmic egg.  He HAS to be far, far more knowledgeable than man in order to do any of this.  We are like ants comparatively - and maybe not even that close.

 

So... who's the Creator?  I spent time studying different major religions (Eastern and Western) as my mind didn't think the Creator would hide himself.  I landed back at Christianity as being the most plausible, but I'm not necessarily "in line" with all that the modern church supports as the modern temple back in Jesus' day sort of got things wrong thinking they were correct, esp the Pharisees (the legalists).  I do read my Bible daily and work to learn from it myself.  We do attend church and listen to the thoughts there.  We pray.

 

I've ended up with the belief that this world is merely a testing time for us humans.  It's not going to go perfectly for anyone, nor is it supposed to.  Prayer is our way of talking with God, but it's not a vending machine giving us all of our desires.  Our life's "purpose" is to do what we can to help others make it through this life and to grow our character more in line with what God would want.  The "bad" parts in life are there to modify our character.  We're to take care of this planet, not abuse it.  We're to treat others as we'd want to be treated.  We're to love God above all.

 

That's how I try to live.  It's how I've raised my boys (the values I've tried to impart).  At this stage in my life, I'm no longer in the "questioning" stage.  I definitely believe there is that Eternal Creator - there's no way in my mind that there couldn't be.  The more I see out in nature, etc, the more I am sure of it.

 

But I allow others the freedom to make their own choice and feel we can all get along.

[marbel]

<snip>

 

 

I need to go ALL the way back to the super beginning - before the Big Bang.  What was there to allow for the Big Bang?  It had to be some sort of cosmic "egg" (about to hatch out all the universe) or an Eternal Designer.  Being a science person, I simply can't fathom how something can come from nothing - I really can't. How'd the cosmic egg get there?  It's definitely easier for me to have faith in an Eternal Designer than it is to see something coming from nothing.  Plus, I see how everything else on earth, esp life, but not limited to that, appears to be designed rather than random.  (I'm ok with evolution, but I think it only works due to being a design plan as it really wouldn't work totally randomly.)

 

This solidified my belief in an Eternal Creator.  Others can choose differently, of course.  We all take "that part" on "faith" as NONE of us can prove anything.  I merely can't see something coming from nothing.  An Eternal Creator could be beyond time - and merely have created time for our universe/world.  He could have created that cosmic egg.  He HAS to be far, far more knowledgeable than man in order to do any of this.  We are like ants comparatively - and maybe not even that close.

 

<snip>

 

I've ended up with the belief that this world is merely a testing time for us humans.  It's not going to go perfectly for anyone, nor is it supposed to.  Prayer is our way of talking with God, but it's not a vending machine giving us all of our desires.  Our life's "purpose" is to do what we can to help others make it through this life and to grow our character more in line with what God would want.  The "bad" parts in life are there to modify our character.  We're to take care of this planet, not abuse it.  We're to treat others as we'd want to be treated.  We're to love God above all.

 

<snip>

 

Snipped for brevity, not because there was anything I disagreed with.

 

I also cannot look at the natural world and come to the conclusion it just happened randomly.  Hummingbirds, Mt Shasta, the Oregon coast, the Grand Canyon, babies, the talent that gave us the Brandenburg Concertos and "In My Life," Love-in-a-Mist (flower) - all created.   The details to me are just details.  I don't need to know just when and how.

 

Then someone will say, what about war, disease, people who do horrible things to each other?   That's the hard part.

 

When I study the Bible (and I am not a Biblical scholar but I have studied and been taught much over the past 20 years), I am reminded over and over that there are no promises that life on earth will be easy.   Bad things will happen. Bad things will happen to those who believe as well as those who don't.  Christians are specifically told to expect suffering as Christ suffered.  But God says "I will not leave you nor forsake you" and that is what I hold on to.

 

As for how I know it is true, I have seen so much evidence in my own life and the lives of others.  The way I have been changed over the years.  The timing of so many things in my life, teaching me to be patient.   The great gifts my patience has brought me.  The release of guilt - that is huge! The examples of many godly men and women who have come into my life. 

 

Faith can't be explained in a completely logical way.  It is hard to see terrible things happening. It is hard to see people suffer, in ways both big and small.  I've seen people suffer mightily and it is only their faith that keeps them from losing their minds or giving up.  Every Sunday I speak to a 95 year old woman who is slowly losing her memory.  She's had many struggles in her life.  But she is filled with the joy of the Lord and everyone can see it. She could be bitter and angry over bad things that have happened to her, but she is not.  She is content in this life and happily anticipating the next. 

 

I have had my moments of struggle too. I know few people who haven't!  God is not offended or angered by honest questioning.  There should be no fear in asking "why."  The psalms are full of asking and questioning.   Ask away, and be open to what you find. 

 

 

 

 

[AngelaNYC]

So, how did you come to your current belief (or non-belief) system? I'm particularly interested in those who have left the faith that you grew up with for something entirely different. How do you de-program yourself from all of that dogma and unravel the strands of what YOU believe? I don't know where to go beyond, "I don't think I believe in the Christian God anymore."

 

I haven't left a faith for different one, but I have delved particularly deeper into the faith I was born into (Roman Catholicism).  Growing up, I (like many Catholics of my generation) had minimal religious education - just kind of going through the motions.  As an adult I realized there was so much I didn't understand or even know about.  I explored and learned about many other religions and beliefs, but was always pulled back.

 

I have finally gotten to a very comfortable and satisfied place now with no real hard questions anymore.  Faith, religion, and science, for me, compliment each other very nicely (which I think is a huge issue for most people who question what they believe).  Reading, research, and participation has brought me to an indescribable feeling of contentment and peace.  I feel like I "get it".

[DawnM]

It ultimately comes down to faith.

 

We have been watching a DVD series this year as a Worldview class that delves into the historical/archeological evidence of Biblical text.  They have even recently found the bones of men who were crucified with nails still in their feet.  (I do realize crucifixion is not what is in question but I found it interesting.)

 

My point is that it really is something you research, reading, studying, listening to others, and prayer.  My husband did not become a Christian until his mid 20s.  He prayed to a God he wasn't sure existed and asked him to reveal himself.  The same week he prayed that prayer, a pastor came into the car dealership he worked in and they spent time together test driving cars.  He invited my husband to his church and he went.  Many might say that was coincidence, that is fine, we don't believe it was.

 

As for suffering and hurt.......I don't think I will be saying anything you haven't heard before......we are given a choice in this life to follow or not follow.  There is evil because there is an ultimate evil force.  Man can choose his own path, no force involved.  I would have a harder time wanting to follow a God if I felt I had no other choice and it was forced on me.

 

[WishboneDawn]

First of all, I don't view Christianity as a "religion".  I view it as a way of life.

 

Unfortunately, because of so many different worldviews, Christianity means different things to different people.  It's hard to point out who is what they actually claim to be.  Someone may claim to be Christian, but their lifestyle doesn't reflect the principles of Christianity and there is no fruit to prove it.  Some create their own brand of Christianity by choosing which doctrines to follow and figure if they don't like the others, they can just skip them.  Unfortunately, you can't really be "partly" Christian.[/quote}

 

Really? What's the definition of a "whole" Christian? The one all or even most Christians agree on?

 

 

 

 

 

 

In addition, many skeptics have never met true Christians. Many skeptics have no clue what the Bible really says.  Many Christians, as well as skeptics, misquote the Bible, misinterpret the Bible, and/or take the Bible out of context.

 

 

 

 

Many people, Christians, sceptics, whatever, have differing opinions on what scripture might mean. It doesn't necessarily mean there's misinterpretation going on, it may mean there's disagreement. We have this issue in Christianity where we assume there's some right way to read scripture and other interpretations are invalid. I think there's more of a traditional of debate and interpretation in Judaism and Islam that we could learn from.

 

 

 

 

 

Can the skeptic know objective moral truth?  Yes.  Can the skeptic ground objective moral truth?  No because they believe that morality - good & evil, right & wrong - are merely human inventions.

 

 

 

 

Maybe it's because I came to Christianity late and had a very secular upbringing but I really don't get why the word "merely" is used in this context. I don't find there's anything mere about that idea.

 

 

 

 

 

Is it easy to be a Christian in today's world?

 

 

 

 

Yes actually. I can be a Christian of any type I choose and I won't be forced to change denomination or burned as a heretic or feel I have to flee my country in order to practice my religion.

 

Yeah, it's pretty easy.

 

ETA: I can't edit the quotes properly for some reason, sorry.

[WishboneDawn]

My answer to the question is that I often don't.

 

Thankfully I belong to a church that isn't confessional and have a minister who encourages questioning and sees doubt as healthy.

 

I don't know if I'll ever have an answer but I'm fine with that. Others have said that they found it much simpler when they dropped their faith after struggles that I assume are similar to mine but I'm sort of comfortable with the struggle and find it a pretty engaging and interesting intellectual battle. I've got a few decades in me at least, I don't feel like I have to go one way or another on the question of faith or declare, "this is what I absolutely believe from now 'till the end," anytime soon.

[Mergath]

The part that I came to post about is just a simple comment to say that God says in his word that spiritual things are only spiritually discerned once a person is born again. He calls the person who has not yet been saved 'the natural man'. When a person becomes a born again Christian, as opposed to just using the label Christian, they are changed spiritually. The person's eyes become opened to things that they could not see or understand earlier. It is true that the individual can still be decieved in certain areas, but if they genuinly go to God and ask him, relying on him alone to provide it, He will show them that truth with proof's that the individual cannot deny and will know for certainty is true.

 

For the age we live in today the way we can know truth is through his inspired and preserved word. This was a great part of his plan, to give us all we needed to know in writing - a complete book. People can look outside of his word for answers, and they can try to induce spiritual experiences, but for us today his word will come to life and speak the truth to us, and it is all we need.

This is the verse that my comment is refering to -

 

'But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.' (1 Cor 2:14)

 

You're new here so you might not realize this, but the argument you just made ("If you were a REAL Christian, you'd understand") is only going to annoy people and reinforce our belief that leaving Christianity was the right choice.  This is the kind of belief that pushes so many reasonable people away from Christianity.  You think that you know, and the rest of us are hugely ignorant because we weren't the right kind of Christian, but that's simply not true.  

[Pawz4me]

I don't know how one really knows what one believes.

 

For me it's been a journey with lots of twists and turns and rethinking, and I fully expect that process to continue throughout my life.

 

I was raised in church (Baptist and Methodist) but never really felt like I belonged.  I felt like I was just going through the motions, pretending to feel and believe what others really did.

 

The final straw came years ago when a very un-Christian like Sunday school teacher vehemently insisted DS was just lazy and not trying to write correctly, even after I'd told her repeatedly that he was in OT for sensory and fine motor issues.  It wasn't what caused us to leave organized religion, but it did sum up a lot of the very negative and hate filled "Christianity" that seemed to be occurring all around us and in the larger world at the time, and it was the final thing that pushed us out the church doors.

 

Since then it's been a journey.  Right now I would probably label myself as a very liberal follower of Christ.  Mine has become the very simple faith of "what did Jesus say that I can use to relate to this issue" or "how would Jesus react to this."  It seems to me that Jesus is worthy of following, regardless of your views on the rest of the Bible, and regardless of whether you view him as simply a man or as the Son of God.  I wholeheartedly reject most of the writings of Paul (the books almost all religious scholars now feel sure he had little to nothing to do with).  I wholeheartedly reject any form of legalism.  I believe that God/a higher power/some sort of intelligent design created the universe, although not at all likely in the literal way portrayed in Genesis.  Maybe it makes me a bit of an agnostic, but I don't think we need to know the specifics of creation or many other issues Christians continually haggle over.  And sometimes I think we weren't meant to know.  An all powerful God certainly could have written a clearer, more specific user manual had He been so inclined. ;)

 

Many people would say I'm not a Christian.  IMO my simplified beliefs make me much more a follower of Christ than I ever was while participating in organized religion.

[TracyP]

Expanding on my earlier post now that I have more time....

 

One thing that has been helpful is working backwards from what I do know. As far as I can tell :tongue_smilie:  I am here amidst the universe. The universe got here somehow. I am open to the idea that there is a higher power out there. I am also open to the idea that there is not. I suppose that makes me agnostic, although I am not ready to label myself that way.

 

From there, I ask myself what I know about this higher power. Do I believe in Zeus, Baal, or Ra? No, those are rejected immediately.

 

Do I believe in the God of Abraham who creates a perfect world and then allows it to fall apart? Who kills everybody when they use the free will he gave them? Who allows rape, but gets ornery when fabrics are mixed? No, I have to think that stuff is mythology and culture.

 

But maybe it is the Christian God of the New Testament. This is the nicest thought to me. It is the one I want to believe. Believing in a God who loves me and is offering me a life after my death sounds very nice. I have tried to separate this God from the God of the OT, and hope that maybe the NT is where they "got it right." Yet again and again, I find things that don't add up even when I leave the OT out of it. ( :rofl: at the thought that I just don't understand and need to study more) I am stuck right here, where Christianity no longer makes sense, but I don't want to give it up. Plus there is also the flip side of fear. What if all the hell stuff is true? I hate to admit it, but it scares me. I can see it for the silliness it is, yet years of thinking this way cannot be erased.* This also makes me want to get my kids FAR AWAY from this stuff. I don't want them to have that fear.

 

*I was not raised with fire and brimstone preaching, but the idea that believers go to heaven(whatever that looks like) and non-believers go to hell(a worse place - or worse version of the same place - or simply don't make it into heaven) is a belief shared by basically all Christians. It is pretty hard to miss that even if it isn't explicitly taught.

 

So that brings me back to the beginning. I have rejected pretty much every belief. If I am being honest with myself, I have to admit that. I try to find the parts I can hold on to, so I don't feel like a fraud at church. I don't know how much longer I can do this, but I don't see any other way around it.

 

:grouphug: OP, your situation sounds especially difficult. I hope you can find understanding from your husband at the very least.

[plumshadow]

This subject REALLY bothers me. I want to believe everything in the bible so much. I was raised in church and my father used to preach to prisoners and my brother is now a literalist waiting for the rapture like a spiritual prepper but it didn't rub off on me.  When answering my children's spiritual questions sometimes I even feel silly trying to explain subjects like heaven and hell and the holy trinity. Taking a religion class only made it worse.  I can't get past the scripture "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and tomorrow"  its what I go back to every time I see the changes that have happened to the Christian faith since its conception. The same the same the same. That means it doesn't change, the books in the bible don't change, the requirements don't change and cultural adaptation should not be changed, Catholic stances on subjects don't change.  Something 500 years ago might have landed you in hell for eternity but now its ok, so in theory there are poor souls burning forever because they were born in the wrong century......or if they do get a pass once its deemed acceptable, do we get passes when 300 years from now the moral Christian compass changes yet again? So if all of it isn't 100% true I cant help but think non of it is.  Also, humans are not as smart as we think we are so why couldn't we be granted the luxury of skipping all the stories that shouldn't be taken literally since we are most easily a literal race. I mean its our eternal souls on the line! He had his son killed for us  but we were not granted a straight to the point way of insuring its not in vain. Just spell it out exactly how we should save it.  Still I believe in a God and still fear hell because it was so ingrained in me growing up even though I'm not sure I believe in it. Such and odd place to be lol  

[Onceuponatime]

 oops wrong thread

 

[Aura]

OP, I've BTDT, too. I raised in a very religious, Baptist home. Like you, I found myself searching for that "fullness of faith." If God, as I understood him from what I'd been taught and what I understood the Bible to say, was God, he wasn't hiding, and I could easily have the connection that I was looking for.

 

I did find the truth that I was looking for, but it wasn't what I was expecting. I had a complete paradigm shift. My faith and beliefs are much more eclectic now. But I came to a point where I had to release nearly everything that I had once believed and start from scratch.

 

Some things that helped me to build my current beliefs (which are still a work in progress) are:

• Edgar Cayce. My brother introduced me to his teachings after I confessed to him that I no longer believed in the Bible like I once had. Edgar Cayce's interpretation of the Bible is very INCLUSIVE. He teaches reincarnation. He teaches mysticism. There is no be-saved-or-die-and-spend-eternity-in-hell dogma. http://www.edgarcayce.org is a good place to start, if you're interested. There's a lot of good articles you can access without becoming a member. If you like to read, you could start with the books There Is A River and then The Story of Jesus. But be forewarned: Edgar Cayce's readings are like reading KJV. They're not that easy to follow!
• Near-Death Experiences. As someone else mentioned, reading about these can be very enlightening. It's amazing how similar these are even though the backgrounds of the people experiencing them can be so incredibly different (i.e. atheist vs. Methodist pastor). http://near-death.com/ is a great place to read about these.
• Ask A Pagan thread.  http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/455100-ask-a-pagan-thread/?hl=ask+pagan For me, this was great. But as others have pointed out, there's also the Ask An Atheist and Ask A Muslim threads, and many others relating to religion and worldviews. The point is that reading about other's beliefs has been a huge help. Reading books is great, too, so I'm not minimizing that, but there's just something special about reading experiences and beliefs from so many different people and different backgrounds and beliefs. It really helped me to see that there are REAL PEOPLE who think and believe this way, not just some random person mentioned in a book. WTM forum posts has been great for that.
• Hell is a Christian Hoax. http://bible-truths.com/23-minutes-in-hell.html This is one article on Bible-truths.com. The way the author interpreted the Bible and different verses was very interesting and definitely not something I had ever heard before. He has several other articles on different doctrines, like the Trinity, but this was the first one I read.

I don't believe everything that these people and sites say, but they were very helpful for me when I was searching. I am still searching, though I am doing so through a place of peace, a peace that I NEVER had as a "Christian," not the kind of Christian I was brought up to be, anyway.

 

My dh is like yours, and still follows the more traditional Christian belief system. This is a bit of conflict, but we are working through it. I only go to church on Sunday mornings, and whenever there's something special (like the kids singing) going on. But this is getting tiresome for me, so I'm not sure how much longer I can continue with this. Also, the co-op that we go to is Christian. They're much more relaxed, but still, so often I feel like a hypocrite because I just don't believe like people think I do. (I live the Bible belt, too, so there's a very strong Christian presence around here, and it permeates into EVERYTHING!) I don't have much advice for you in this area. Just letting you know that there's someone else out there going through something similar.  :grouphug:

 

I am going to go back and see if I can link to websites for you...but last time I did that, I lost my whole post. :crying: So, if it doesn't work, you'll have to befriend Google. And if you search for the Ask A ... threads here on WTM, sort by title, ascending. That helps to find them easier.

 

edited to add: I had to add the links by typing them in manually because if I didn't, the page would freeze. :glare: Hopefully, they work.

[DawnM]

I get this.

 

I grew up uber conservative.  No dancing, no alcohol, no face cards, no doing anything that resembles work on Sunday, etc.....

 

I just think that just because someone thinks X or Y is the correct interpretation of scripture, doesn't make it so.  You need to read it, pray about it, and find what you feel comfortable with.  Spiritual abuse happens all the time in the name of "interpretation of scripture."

 

As for hell, I admit I struggle greatly with it.  How can man be judged on his limited earthly understanding when the Bible clearly says that we know in part and see in part but when we die we shall know Him fully.  Does everyone get to see him fully when they die or only those who are believers?  Does everyone get the chance to say, "I get it now, I messed up, I believe now?" or is it only for those who believe now on earth?

 

These are just questions I struggle with.  People who don't want to answer me just say, "Well, I just leave that up to God.  He is God after all and he will sort it out."  That isn't quite sufficient for me.  Nor is the idea that God has already predestined people to heaven and hell.  

 

Am I a Universalist?  No, but I like the idea of it.

 

Dawn

 

 

This subject REALLY bothers me. I want to believe everything in the bible so much. I was raised in church and my father used to preach to prisoners and my brother is now a literalist waiting for the rapture like a spiritual prepper but it didn't rub off on me.  When answering my children's spiritual questions sometimes I even feel silly trying to explain subjects like heaven and hell and the holy trinity. Taking a religion class only made it worse.  I can't get past the scripture "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and tomorrow"  its what I go back to every time I see the changes that have happened to the Christian faith since its conception. The same the same the same. That means it doesn't change, the books in the bible don't change, the requirements don't change and cultural adaptation should not be changed, Catholic stances on subjects don't change.  Something 500 years ago might have landed you in hell for eternity but now its ok, so in theory there are poor souls burning forever because they were born in the wrong century......or if they do get a pass once its deemed acceptable, do we get passes when 300 years from now the moral Christian compass changes yet again? So if all of it isn't 100% true I cant help but think non of it is.  Also, humans are not as smart as we think we are so why couldn't we be granted the luxury of skipping all the stories that shouldn't be taken literally since we are most easily a literal race. I mean its our eternal souls on the line! He had his son killed for us  but we were not granted a straight to the point way of insuring its not in vain. Just spell it out exactly how we should save it.  Still I believe in a God and still fear hell because it was so ingrained in me growing up even though I'm not sure I believe in it. Such and odd place to be lol  

 

[Rivka]

I don't mean to sound contrary, but can I genuinely ask how that is possible for you? Christianity is based in exclusivity - that this is the ONE TRUE god and anyone who does not call him savior will spend a painful eternity in hell. How does that not shroud the whole thing in a thick layer of fear and intimidation for any but those who are part of the club? If you have been taught to believe that this is THE only way and all others lead to personal death and destruction, how does one not feel a paralyzing fear that what they've been taught from birth might actually happen if they walk away?

 

I grew up going to a Christian church (Congregationalist/United Church of Christ) and I don't think I ever heard the word "hell" spoken in church. The "mainline Protestant" denominations are essentially universalist in their outlook, meaning that they don't believe in hell and damnation. If it matters to you, mainline Protestants also tend to believe that there is no incompatibility between science and religion - that they are avenues of inquiry designed to answer different questions. I grew up learning that the Bible is a collection of diverse writings, some of which are literally true, some of which are allegorically or metaphorically true, and some of which are artifacts of a particular culture and time period.

 

It sounds like, culturally speaking, you might face real difficulties with your job and your family if you left the Christian church entirely. If that's the case, you might try seeking out a mainline Protestant congregation. A number of the things that disturb you about "Christianity" are things that I would consider specific to fundamentalist/evangelical Christianity. Mainline congregations tend to be much, much less focused on rules and absolutes, and much more accepting of doubts and differences. I have a particular fondness for the United Church of Christ, but the United Methodist Church, the Presbyterian Church USA, and the Episcopal Church are examples of large mainline denominations.

 

Actually, I've done that a number of times and it really gets me nowhere.  I feel like it should allow for multiple answers.  Also, about 80% of my answers are typically, "I don't know."  :tongue_smilie:

 

 

I have actually considered this and want to read a bit more about them on their website.  Everything I've read thus far though sounds very beautiful and welcoming.  There are a few in my area and I do know one couple that attends a UU church, though they are DH's friends, not mine.  I'm not close with them, though they would be welcoming.  It seems like it would be a bit awkward to run into them there without DH.  

 

Thank you!

 

When I saw that most of your answers were "I don't know," I immediately thought of Unitarian-Universalism. :-)  When I take the Belief-O-Matic test, my response to most of the questions is "I don't care about that." I'm a Unitarian-Universalist who doesn't particularly enjoy going to church (just not that happy with my minister or with my congregation's worship style), but I do find meaning in engaging with UU ideas, and I find UU worship deeply moving when I do it at our UU summer camp. There are a ton of UU sermon podcasts out there. That might be a good place to start.

 

Here are a couple of podcast suggestions. I haven't necessarily listened to these, but these are ministers I know personally:

 

Rev. Meg Barnhouse https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/first-unitarian-universalist/id372427776?mt=2

Rev. Dr. Michael Tino https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/uufnw-sermons/id253937331?mt=2

 

The UU World online magazine is also a great resource: http://www.uuworld.org/ Here's an article that's currently on the front page: "Where do you find comfort in suffering if you don't believe that suffering has a greater purpose?" http://www.uuworld.org/spirit/articles/294145.shtml

[DawnM]

The concept of all going to heaven has not been a part of any mainline Protestant church I have ever gone to.

 

Churches I have been an active part of throughout my life:

 

Nazarene

United Methodist

Free Methodist

Christian and Missionary Alliance

Southern Baptist

Evangelical Free

Foursquare

 

Those are pretty standard Protestant churches and none of them tout Universalism.  I have heard hell mentioned in all of them as being a place for those who are not believers in Jesus' dying work on the cross for the atonement for our sins.

 

Dawn

 

 

 The "mainline Protestant" denominations are essentially universalist in their outlook, meaning that they don't believe in hell and damnation. If it matters to you, mainline Protestants also tend to believe that there is no incompatibility between science and religion - that they are avenues of inquiry designed to answer different questions. I grew up learning that the Bible is a collection of diverse writings, some of which are literally true, some of which are allegorically or metaphorically true, and some of which are artifacts of a particular culture and time period.

 

 

 

[DawnM]

^{My Belief O Matic results showed:}

 

^{Christian/Protestant- 98%}

^{Catholic- 81%}

^{Adventist- 75%}

^{Orthodox- 75%}

^{Muslim- 62%}

^{Universalist- 42%}

 

^{Some of the questions didn't really have the choice I would actually believe, which threw me off a bit.}

[Mandylubug]

I have really enjoyed this thread. Anyone else take the belief-o-matic quiz? It says I lean more towards an Orthodox Quaker. I did have an obsession with Amish romance novels for a while, LOL.

 

This quiz was fun but naturally can't fully decide where one would fit truly. Maybe as an estimate. I was raised southern baptist. I do have issues with rituals and rites. Perhaps Quakers don't believein such?

[Mandylubug]

^{My Belief O Matic results showed:}

 

^{Christian/Protestant- 98%}

^{Catholic- 81%}

^{Adventist- 75%}

^{Orthodox- 75%}

^{Muslim- 62%}

^{Universalist- 42%}

 

^{Some of the questions didn't really have the choice I would actually believe, which threw me off a bit.}

I need to retake it. I don't remember seeing the percentages last night. What specific religion did it say you fit in most closely?

[marbel]

<snip>

 

Am I a Universalist?  No, but I like the idea of it.

 

Dawn

 

This is where I am too.   I have no biblical basis for this, but I like to think that even at the very end of life, people are once more given the opportunity to believe.  I think of the thief on the cross (sorry, not sure which of the gospels that is in) who believed and was told he would be with Christ in paradise.  I think of the parable of the workers; some started work early in the day, some late, but all were paid the same. 

 

So, I don't know.  I am fairly content, most of the time, with not knowing.  I guess that is what faith is.

[Rivka]

The concept of all going to heaven has not been a part of any mainline Protestant church I have ever gone to.

 

Churches I have been an active part of throughout my life:

 

Nazarene

United Methodist

Free Methodist

Christian and Missionary Alliance

Southern Baptist

Evangelical Free

Foursquare

 

Those are pretty standard Protestant churches and none of them tout Universalism.  I have heard hell mentioned in all of them as being a place for those who are not believers in Jesus' dying work on the cross for the atonement for our sins.

 

Dawn

 

But "mainline" doesn't mean "mainstream" or "standard." For example, I'm pretty sure that there are many more Southern Baptists than American Baptists, but American Baptist churches are considered to be mainline Protestant, and Southern Baptist churches are not. "Mainline" is the contrasting term to "fundamentalist." Of the churches you list, I think only the United Methodist Church is considered "mainline Protestant."

 

I think it's pretty common for people raised in fundamentalist cultures to not even really be aware that mainline Christianity exists, which is why I wanted the OP to be aware of them. I don't have a dog in this hunt, myself - I don't consider myself to be a Christian at all anymore, although I was raised as a devout and committed one.

[Onceuponatime]

But "mainline" doesn't mean "mainstream" or "standard." For example, I'm pretty sure that there are many more Southern Baptists than American Baptists, but American Baptist churches are considered to be mainline Protestant, and Southern Baptist churches are not. "Mainline" is the contrasting term to "fundamentalist." Of the churches you list, I think only the United Methodist Church is considered "mainline Protestant."

 

I think it's pretty common for people raised in fundamentalist cultures to not even really be aware that mainline Christianity exists, which is why I wanted the OP to be aware of them. I don't have a dog in this hunt, myself - I don't consider myself to be a Christian at all anymore, although I was raised as a devout and committed one.

 

In my fundamentalist background "mainline" and "mainstream" are used synonymously. In the past I have said I belong to a mainline  -------- church, but there are other churches in that tradition that are considered "liberal" and "ultra conservative." I think even word usage differs from denomination to denomination.

[Pawz4me]

I have really enjoyed this thread. Anyone else take the belief-o-matic quiz? It says I lean more towards an Orthodox Quaker. I did have an obsession with Amish romance novels for a while, LOL.

 

This quiz was fun but naturally can't fully decide where one would fit truly. Maybe as an estimate. I was raised southern baptist. I do have issues with rituals and rites. Perhaps Quakers don't believein such?

 

I've taken the Belief-O-Matic quiz several times over ten years or so, and I always come up as matching closest with liberal Quakers, and if I were inclined to return to some sort of organized religion that's what I'd look into.  As far as I understand things, Quakers don't believe in rituals and sacraments such as baptism and communion.

 

[HRAAB]

"How do you know what you believe?"

 

I have two standouts that were evidence to me, backing up my belief in the God of the Bible. (I came to understand these things after my difficult period.)

 

1. Bible Prophecy. Not regarding the first coming so much, but more specifically to what we seeing going on in our world today. We were told that there was going to be a great falling away, and there is. And we were told that there would be a great division amongst believers and heresies entering in. The confusion of beliefs in today's churches simply confirms what the Bible predicted would happen.

 

Also watching the one world coming together getting set up for the Anti-Christ to arrive. It sounds crazy, but we can see the plan unfolding before our very eyes. Especially as we are told in the Bible that it will come under the guise of "peace and safety".

 

2. The Perfect Design of the Bible. There is evidence that the Bible has been perfectly designed. It is mathematically and structurally perfect. No man by himself could have constructed it. I am talking about the 'design aspect' only here. The way the canon of scripture was chosen and organised could not have been done deliberately by men who did not know each other to collaborate, who lived if not by hundreds of years, but by thousands of years apart.

 

 

 

Could you further explain what you mean by the Bible being mathematically and structurally perfect? 

[J-rap]

Sometimes I think it's harder when you actually grow up in a Christian family, because you're not always forced to think about it objectively.  That was me.

 

After some terrible, life-changing events, and not "feeling" my faith, I suddenly began to question it.  It began as just a passing thought, but grew into a giant event.  I realized that I didn't want to believe anymore just because I happened to be born into a Christian family.  I just wanted the truth.  Plus, I was sick of all of the so-called Christian messages I kept hearing in the news.  So much of it is really sickening.

 

I felt like I started from scratch, in a way.  I did a lot of reading and listened to people across the spectrum (from Christians to other religions to atheists).  It was a really difficult time for me, because I felt like I was throwing everything I'd ever believed out the door.  This went on for several years.  In the midst of that blackness, however, I realized that Jesus the man still fascinated me.  His words just made sense to me.  So that's the point where I started.  Just examining his words, his philosophy. 

 

I feel like I've rebuilt my faith again.  I think the Christian institution has it wrong in so many ways.  To the point where there aren't too many churches anymore that I'd feel comfortable attending regularly.  But I think Jesus the man had it spot on.   Jesus the man eventually became Jesus, the son of God, again.  I'm a Christian, but it's very different this time.  It's not about rules or judging or so many things.  It's pretty bare bones.  It boils down to love. 

 

Sorry, I don't mean to "persuade" you, just telling you my own story.  If you're open at all to Christianity still, I'd recommend the book "Letters From A Skeptic" by Gregory Boyd.

 

For what it's worth, I'm a Christian who embraces science, and who believes that seeking the truth requires me to be open-minded and open to change.  I believe God best reveals Himself with this kind of a mindset.

 

Good luck on this journey!

[Liz CA]

This subject REALLY bothers me. I want to believe everything in the bible so much. I was raised in church and my father used to preach to prisoners and my brother is now a literalist waiting for the rapture like a spiritual prepper but it didn't rub off on me.  When answering my children's spiritual questions sometimes I even feel silly trying to explain subjects like heaven and hell and the holy trinity. Taking a religion class only made it worse.  I can't get past the scripture "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and tomorrow"  its what I go back to every time I see the changes that have happened to the Christian faith since its conception. The same the same the same.

 

I don't know if this is helpful at all...but I take this verse to mean the character of Christ, his integrity and love for us will never change, has never changed. I don't apply it to wordly events or circumstances.

[plumshadow]

I have really enjoyed this thread. Anyone else take the belief-o-matic quiz? It says I lean more towards an Orthodox Quaker. I did have an obsession with Amish romance novels for a while, LOL.

 

This quiz was fun but naturally can't fully decide where one would fit truly. Maybe as an estimate. I was raised southern baptist. I do have issues with rituals and rites. Perhaps Quakers don't believein such?

 

I did and I got reformed Judaism. I am willing to look and read into it, ironically enough Judaism did interest me when I first began to question my Pentecostal faith.  

[justasque]

... I do have issues with rituals and rites. Perhaps Quakers don't believein such?

A Quaker service is totally, totally different than, say, a Catholic service.  Totally.  If that's where B'o'M puts you, it might be worth reading up on a bit.

[Mandylubug]

A Quaker service is totally, totally different than, say, a Catholic service.  Totally.  If that's where B'o'M puts you, it might be worth reading up on a bit.

 

I have read up a good bit and will say I do think we fall into their category a good bit. I will be reading up more. I did laugh at first because my stereotype is they are like the Amish. Obviously, I am wrong :p

[Quiver0f10]

This subject REALLY bothers me. I want to believe everything in the bible so much. I was raised in church and my father used to preach to prisoners and my brother is now a literalist waiting for the rapture like a spiritual prepper but it didn't rub off on me.  When answering my children's spiritual questions sometimes I even feel silly trying to explain subjects like heaven and hell and the holy trinity. Taking a religion class only made it worse.  I can't get past the scripture "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday today and tomorrow"  its what I go back to every time I see the changes that have happened to the Christian faith since its conception. The same the same the same. That means it doesn't change, the books in the bible don't change, the requirements don't change and cultural adaptation should not be changed, Catholic stances on subjects don't change.  Something 500 years ago might have landed you in hell for eternity but now its ok, so in theory there are poor souls burning forever because they were born in the wrong century......or if they do get a pass once its deemed acceptable, do we get passes when 300 years from now the moral Christian compass changes yet again? So if all of it isn't 100% true I cant help but think non of it is.  Also, humans are not as smart as we think we are so why couldn't we be granted the luxury of skipping all the stories that shouldn't be taken literally since we are most easily a literal race. I mean its our eternal souls on the line! He had his son killed for us  but we were not granted a straight to the point way of insuring its not in vain. Just spell it out exactly how we should save it.  Still I believe in a God and still fear hell because it was so ingrained in me growing up even though I'm not sure I believe in it. Such and odd place to be lol  

 

Christian faith is believing in the person and saving work of Jesus Christ. What people did or did not do doesn't matter in the sense of where they will spend eternity. The only thing that will land someone in hell is rejecting Jesus Christ. The only way to spend eternity in Heaven is to repent of your sins and trust in the finished work of Jesus.

 

Religion in man made and will fail because man is sinful and will fall short of being "good enough." That is why Christ came, died and rose again. He did it all.

[albeto.]

Christian faith is believing in the person and saving work of Jesus Christ. What people did or did not do doesn't matter in the sense of where they will spend eternity. The only thing that will land someone in hell is rejecting Jesus Christ. The only way to spend eternity in Heaven is to repent of your sins and trust in the finished work of Jesus.

 

Religion in man made and will fail because man is sinful and will fall short of being "good enough." That is why Christ came, died and rose again. He did it all.

 

These were the kinds of answers that really chipped away at my faith. You say this with such sincerity, and yet, how do you know (which is the OP's question)? How do you know that your belief in this "saving work" is a valid belief? How do you that what people did or didn't do doesn't matter in the sense of where they will spend eternity? How do you know that the only thing that will land someone in hell is rejecting Jesus, or that the only way to spend eternity in heaven is to repent of your sins and trust in the finished work (and what does that mean)? The bible says otherwise, other believers say otherwise, and they say so with the same sincerity you show. So... how do you know these beliefs of yours (which contradict the beliefs of poster you are quoting, and other believers in this thread) are right? 

 

I'm not asking you to answer. Ultimately the answer has to come down to faith because there is no way of knowing any of this. I'm just pointing out the problem inherent in offering opinions in response to this kind of topic. Answers like looking to near-death-experiences won't confirm belief unless the information uncovered is biased or lacking pertinent data. Answers like looking to other people's interpretation of the bible appeal to another person's beliefs. None of this is based on knowledge, but based on speculation, assumptions, and ultimately, faith.