Hyacinth Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 If you belong to an organization that follows the two-deep leadership policy (church, scouts, etc.), at what age does this layer of protection phase out? Or does it? I recently heard that our youth group leaders sometimes hold "one-on-one" conversations with the tweens and teens. I don't know if they are behind closed doors or just in a corner of a room, and I don't know who initiates the conversation or really any details about it. But I intend to find out, and I'm curious how other organizations handle this kind of thing. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 It doesn't phase out in scouts; the policy remains in place as long as the scouts are minors. Any one on one conversations are held within sight of other people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FaithManor Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 Doesn't phase out in 4-H either. Now that said, one way that we make that work is to require a certain number of parents be present at meetings. They can figure it out amongst themselves, but the meeting is shut down if dh and I do not have other parents in the room. We aren't about to put ourselves in a bind. If we have to have a private for the child conversation, another adult besides dh or I is present. That said, we work on science projects and the younger kids need help anyway. So, usually we have no problems with parents sticking around. The older teens, yes their parents like to leave and that's fine. But, it's pretty rare that we don't have at least three other non-related adults at the meeting. At church, it doesn't phase out with minors. Dh and I are hosting a youth function and will have two other couples help us plus a single college student. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravin Posted March 13, 2014 Share Posted March 13, 2014 It applies in the SCA for all youth activities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 I keep it in place with our college students. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenn121 Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 In AHG is is start (5) to finish (18) even if the girl turns 18 during her final year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueenCat Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 At our church, it is through high school. One on ones are within visibility of another adult if a youth wants to talk one on one to an adult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linders Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 Boy Scouts here. It ends at age 18. And no one-on-ones behind closed doors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momma2three Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 Girl Scouts it's all the way through. It's a protection for adults as well as for kids, so I find it really strange that a church wouldn't insist on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FromA2Z Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 At our church there is always two. If a child or teen insisted on only talking to one person (which we discourage) it would be within eyesight of another. Even my husband (the pastor) will only meet adult females with another female present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whereneverever Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 Through both high school and college youth groups. It's for everyone's safety. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScoutTN Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 It remains in place throughout our children's and youth ministries at church, so infant through 12th grade. The youth ministry has some slightly different details than children's ministry, but the essentials are the same. Adults are never alone with a child or student. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeacefulChaos Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 It never phases out. As long as there are adults working with minors, it's a two adult rule. The only 'exceptions' (which aren't really exceptions) would be if a pastor is meeting for a counseling session with a student. But those would still be done in a room with large windows or with the doors open, if they didn't include another person already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriet Vane Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 It doesn't phase out, ever. There should always be two adults with a minor. Teens are vulnerable to manipulation and abuse so the two-deep policy should always apply to them as well as to children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
73349 Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 A teacher in our Sunday school can ask a child to step out into the hallway with the door open, not into a more private place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawthorne44 Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 At the training for Church Sunday School they said it never goes away. They had an explanation that made sense to me. The child might have been or being abused somewhere else. They want the Sunday School to be a place where the child can feel completely safe and absolutely nothing is done that might trigger fear. So, two adults in the room at all time. Child-initiated hugs are diverted into side hugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momma2three Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 Want to add--I've been told that the LDS has more stringent rules--the two deep, if it's a man and a woman, must be husband and wife. Interesting. In Girl Scouts, it CAN'T be husband and wife. It has to be two non-related adults. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anne in CA Posted March 14, 2014 Share Posted March 14, 2014 Our former church also had two deep with all kids up to college age and it never "phased out". Any one on one meeting could not be behind closed doors. Even our Senior Pastor had a glass door on his office so that his conduct was never in question. My uncle was a pastor of a large church and my aunt told me that women THREW themselves at him, even coming into the church at night. He eventually had his office on the edge of the building by a huge window which kept women from thinking they could sneak in on him. I would be leery of any "one on one" church meetings. My bff's church found out that the janitor was doing counseling and had taken advantage of several teenage girls. That church had organizational problems anyway, but the janitor doing counseling for teen age girls???? Insane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
busymama7 Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Yeah, I think that wouldn't be a great idea either. It's to protect the propriety of the adults. Married men and women are not to be alone with someone of the opposite gender. Another leader is included also. So then there are three leaders not two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Margaret Hoelezer, a 3 time Olympic medalist (swimming) was abused beginning at age 5. She is a frequent presenter at abuse prevention seminars, where she speaks of her horrific experience, and how to protect athletes of all ages. One of her suggestions is to have one on one coach conversations in a public place- she suggests in the bleachers if the conversation is somewhat private. Eyes can still see, the conversation isn't broadcasted. I've also heard survivors suggest one-on-one chats to he help in an open lobby. Set up a sofa or a couple of chairs. People can still see, even if the conversation isn't heard. Also, replace solid doors with ones with large windows. Witnesses witnesses witnesses. This is long, and I haven't seen the whole thing, but maybe there is advice here: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harriet Vane Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Great. I had volunteers and they bailed. So it is just me. There are adults in the building preparing supper downstairs and they can hear everything as I keep the door open for choir. But it is just me and my daughter and 20 kids that are 1st-5th grade. Hope that is ok. This isn't always popular, but in a case like this I would shut down the class or program unless 2-deep leadership can occur. (I have done so in the past.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 This isn't always popular, but in a case like this I would shut down the class or program unless 2-deep leadership can occur. (I have done so in the past.) I'd cancel as well. What if a child has to go to the bathroom etc? Who are the other adults in the building with access to a roaming child (even if it is just to the bathroom) not in your sight? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momma2three Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Yes, in Girl Scout leader training we were told that we have to cancel if there's only 1 adult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momma2three Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Yeah, I think that wouldn't be a great idea either. Sorry, to have the adults be not-related, or related? I think not-related makes more sense, because I think a spouse would be more likely to ignore or cover up problematic behavior. Having Sandusky's wife around did nothing to protect all those kids, and she's still got blinders on despite all the evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catz Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Great. I had volunteers and they bailed. So it is just me. There are adults in the building preparing supper downstairs and they can hear everything as I keep the door open for choir. But it is just me and my daughter and 20 kids that are 1st-5th grade. Hope that is ok. If you really wanted to run this group, I'd tell the parents of these kids they need to take turns assisting. I wouldn't run it without 2 adults in the room, even in terms of your own protection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melinda in VT Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Yes, I meant it might be better to have non-related adults. According to the district guy, it's just him and his wife with the 11yo Scouts (LDS Scouts don't join the main troop for a year). He was SURE that our SM and I couldn't stand at the park and watch the boys run, but I explained that that was an LDS thing. We're hardly alone--there are 16 Scouts there! The LDS church's rules/guidance that adult men and women who aren't married to each other should never be alone together predates the concept of two-deep leadership by several decades, at least. From my perspective, Mormons view adultery as being much more likely than abuse. One of the things I like about my post-Utah, post-Mormon life is the more natural, casual relationships between adult men and women. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandra Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Great. I had volunteers and they bailed. So it is just me. There are adults in the building preparing supper downstairs and they can hear everything as I keep the door open for choir. But it is just me and my daughter and 20 kids that are 1st-5th grade. Hope that is ok. The parents are all at work. They can't get here until dinner or a wanna. My helpers were teachers who ended up having meetings after school. We are in the middle of a musical and I don't want to cancel Once you get used to two deep, it becomes so ingrained that anything else is completely out of the question. This will sound harsh, but I would cancel now, with no grace period, saying you've been made aware of how many organizations require two deep and you do not want to proceed any other way. My bet is that someone will appear to help. If you wait outside till the helpers arrive, that should take care of latenesses. Yes, I know this will sound harsh to the clueless, but you deserve to have help. Btw, I have a co leader in my GS group, but some extra parents always stay and I thank them profusely every time and also work out our meeting so that visiting parents become part of the activities, not just audience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueenCat Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 Great. I had volunteers and they bailed. So it is just me. There are adults in the building preparing supper downstairs and they can hear everything as I keep the door open for choir. But it is just me and my daughter and 20 kids that are 1st-5th grade. Hope that is ok. When I have taught that type of program, I did not let ANY parent leave until the minimum number of volunteers were present. Usually, one would volunteer to stay the whole time if the volunteer did not show so that others could go ahead & leave. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QueenCat Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 The parents are all at work. They can't get here until dinner or a wanna. My helpers were teachers who ended up having meetings after school. We are in the middle of a musical and I don't want to cancel How do the kids get there? I would not put myself in the situation where a child could accuse me of something, and there was no other adult to have witnessed that I did nothing wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenn121 Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 The other issue with having married adults together as your 2 deep leaders is that spousal privledge. They cannot testify against each other. In AHG they count as 1 there must be another registered leader that is not related. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandra Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 I wanted to add that in Boy Scouts there is online Youth Protection Training. All parents are strongly urged to to take it. Some years, our troop/pack has had a trainer do the course on site, in person. That way, all parents are on board with how important the YPT rules are. As Cathie C said, picture yourself being wrongly accused. No, don't. Get the other adult into your program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted March 15, 2014 Share Posted March 15, 2014 As Cathie C said, picture yourself being wrongly accused. No, don't. Get the other adult into your program. This is what would scare me. Not that I couldn't handle the kids, not that I didn't have help in the form of my own daughter. The problem is that you don't have another adult in the same room. Several summers ago I taught a very small college class (5 dropped, 2 remained to the end). Even with two adults over 21 y.o. and being in a classroom that opens into the atrium with a window in the door, my dean told me to prop the door wide open every time and make sure that I had them sign the attendance in their own handwriting to prove who was there. The college flagged that class as being a potential legal problem with so few students and the possibility of it being just me and one other student in a classroom. This same college requires that professors meet with students in open areas or in an office with the door open where there are definitely other people around who can hear. If an after-hours or closed door meeting is required, the professor is to get another professor or someone from the administration to be there. I figure that if they are that careful at a state college with adults, I need to be even more careful with children elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elfgivas Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 If you belong to an organization that follows the two-deep leadership policy (church, scouts, etc.), at what age does this layer of protection phase out? Or does it? I recently heard that our youth group leaders sometimes hold "one-on-one" conversations with the tweens and teens. I don't know if they are behind closed doors or just in a corner of a room, and I don't know who initiates the conversation or really any details about it. But I intend to find out, and I'm curious how other organizations handle this kind of thing. Thanks! whenever i work with teens one on one, i walk with them outside. if that completely isn't possible, i do it in a room with an open door. its as much for my protection as theirs. fwiw, ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth S Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Another option is to HIRE an additional teen or two. The non-voluteering parents could fund this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest submarines Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 On one hand, I do understand and value the 2-deep policies. On the other hand this seems like pure craziness that this is what needs to be done in order to protect our children. What world is this that a child can never be alone with an unrelated adult, and that doors are always open etc. My best childhood memories are of being 1:1 with various unrelated adults--precious moments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 On one hand, I do understand and value the 2-deep policies. On the other hand this seems like pure craziness that this is what needs to be done in order to protect our children. What world is this that a child can never be alone with an unrelated adult, and that doors are always open etc. My best childhood memories are of being 1:1 with various unrelated adults--precious moments. I agree, but we live in a different world too. One group I was with was renting a church facility, and we were told as part of the contract that if a classroom was ever observed without two adults present, we would be immediately booted out and would never rent there again. Apparently their insurance required 100% compliance, or so we were told. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FO4UR Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 2-deep leadership does not phase out. Do not try to be too "nice" about it if you are the lone adult...refuse to be a lone adult! It sets terrible precedent...if one adult does it, why not another...are we REALLY going to go there??? It's dangerous for you. All it takes is one false accusation and your life is forever changed. I'm a PW, and there are times when I pack up the kids and do some school at the church so that dh isn't in that situation. He would NEVER council a minor alone, ever! Generally, he'd want a parent in the room listening and participating. He doesn't even have closed-door, private meetings with adults...there is a glass window and people present in the building even when the conversation is private. It's a safeguard for both the adult and the child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momma2three Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Honestly, I can't really think of any experiences from my childhood that didn't involve my parents, which would have been all that different with an extra adult in the picture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seasider Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Honestly, I can't really think of any experiences from my childhood that didn't involve my parents, which would have been all that different with an extra adult in the picture. I'm taking this to mean you were always safe and well cared for? If only that were true for everyone. Unfortunately, there are too many reasons these two-deep precautions came into being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Great. I had volunteers and they bailed. So it is just me. There are adults in the building preparing supper downstairs and they can hear everything as I keep the door open for choir. But it is just me and my daughter and 20 kids that are 1st-5th grade. Hope that is ok. It isn't okay. If we didn't have two deep leadership, then parents would have to stay and/or the program would end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 On one hand, I do understand and value the 2-deep policies. On the other hand this seems like pure craziness that this is what needs to be done in order to protect our children It is also to protect the adults involved. You don't want any accusations of improper behavior that aren't true. It doesn't even have to be the worst case scenario, there are lots of issues on the problem spectrum-favoritism, bullying (by other kids), discipline issues, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan C. Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 At the local (secular) college, professor's offices have windows and doors are left open. I have heard professors say that they would like to help and talk to a distressed student, but will not under any circumstance close their office doors. Wow, the world has changed since I was younger.... I had countless times where I was with only one teacher, and all were fine. I do sympathize with those who weren't fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
momma2three Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 I'm taking this to mean you were always safe and well cared for? If only that were true for everyone. Unfortunately, there are too many reasons these two-deep precautions came into being. No, I was replying to the person who said that some of her favorite memories were with only 1 adult. I was trying to think, and I can't think of any childhood memories which would have been significantly altered by having a second adult around. I think that a 2 deep policy makes good sense, and I can't think of any reason why an organization that involves kids wouldn't have one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeacefulChaos Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 Interesting. In Girl Scouts, it CAN'T be husband and wife. It has to be two non-related adults. Our church is the same. If husband and wife want to work together, they have to have a third adult with them. For the reason stated below: The other issue with having married adults together as your 2 deep leaders is that spousal privledge. They cannot testify against each other. In AHG they count as 1 there must be another registered leader that is not related. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alessandra Posted March 16, 2014 Share Posted March 16, 2014 It is also to protect the adults involved. You don't want any accusations of improper behavior that aren't true. It doesn't even have to be the worst case scenario, there are lots of issues on the problem spectrum-favoritism, bullying (by other kids), discipline issues, etc. Imagine a kid who doesn't get to stand where he/she wants, get a solo, whatever. They tell their parents how mean you are. In the ears of the wrong parents, who knows what that can become? Two deep is like a seatbelt -- I don't expect to crash, but if I crash, I have some protection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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