Messianic Jew - what does that mean to you?

[PuddleJumper1]

If someone claims to be a Messianic Jew does that mean:

1 ~ They were a practicing Jew who has come to believe Jesus is Messiah.

2 ~ Any Christian (never Jewish) that decides to attend a Messianic congregation after many years in traditional Christian churches.

Thanks! Trying to settle my thoughts on a current situation.

 

 

ETA - adjusted the original to remove any confusion.

[Angie in VA]

I think of #1. 

[Mrs Mungo]

I would assume #1, but I don't really know much about it.

[bolt.]

Either one, but the second one only if they are committed to Torah-keeping. A person attending a messianic congregation who is not keeping Torah is only "interested" in that expression of Christian spirituality -- they have not become a covert to the Jewish lifestyle.

 

It is entirely possible to covert and 'become a Jew' without racial Jewish heritage. This is true both for 'standard' Judaism and Messianic Judsism... But it describes an actual conversion, not merely a superficial affiliation.

 

There is a sense that all believers in Christ are adopted/grafted into the people of God, therefore it is (somewhat) Biblically defensible to say 'all Christians' have a Jewish-ness to our spiritual identity. However, to claim (in that basis) to actually 'be a Jew' is both incredibly pretentious and intentionally confusing in most contexts. I consider it best-avoided.

[Library Momma]

Messianic Jews are not Jewish, they are Christian.  There is no way to believe Jesus is the Messiah and be a Jew at the same time.  There are no movements (denominations) in Judaism that consider Messianic Jews Jewish (meaning this isn't just my opinion).

[SJ.]

I think of anyone who begins to attend a Messianic Jewish Synagogue - could be previously Jewish but now believes that Jesus is the Messiah, a Christian who now wishes to keep the OT laws, or someone of any other religion/non-religion who now believes in Jesus and in keeping the OT laws.  *Caveat* - I could be wrong on these points but this is what it means to me.

[kewb]

I would think it was a Jew who is now a Christian but did not want to give up all the cultural and religious practices that go along with being Jewish. However, they are no longer Jewish.  They are Christian.

[scrapbookbuzz]

I know two of them. each will tell you that they grew up In a practicing Jewish household. However, they have decided they believe Jesus is the Messiah. The still value what they learned from their Jewish heritage but are now devoted followers of Jesus Christ.

[mytwomonkeys]

I would consider it someone that was Jewish and became a Christian, but they saw their Jewish heritage as pertinent still to their faith and a typical Christian church was unable to meet their needs/wants. I have never been to a messianic temple though and really don't know. I know Zola Levitt has a website and books though & he considers himself a messianic Jew.

[bolt.]

We could say "not conventionally Jewish" -- and I do agree that society at large and the historic/conventional Jewish segment if society are likely to consider Christian the most appropriate label... I believe most self-identifying Messianic Jews are aware of that too.

 

However, I do see the theology of continuing or adopting Jewish practices while accepting Jesus as the long-awaited Messiah of the Jewish people. Originally, one did not need to stop being a Jew to become a believer in Christ... though the rejection of believers by Jews was fairly early also.

 

People who see it that way, and live it that way, should be able to use terms that reflect it. I believe in allowing people to self-label (within reason).

[mamaraby]

I would say that in practice among those I've known who claim the title, then it comes out more as #2.  While I support the right of an individual to self-identify as they choose, I think it's more accurate to use the term Christian.  Just my $0.02 as a sister-in-law to someone who is not Jewish by any stretch of the imagination or by the loosest of definitions and yet still believes himself to be a "Messianic Jew."

[Ipsey]

Most of the Messianic people I know are Christians who have "adapted" some sorts of cultural Judaism and have elements of Jewish worship. Most go to a Messianic Jewish worship center and they call themselves Messianic Christians. The Jews who have embraced Jesus as the Messiah seem to call themselves Messianic Jews, and I have known fewer of these.

 

I think people should label themselves as they like, but for my own convenience, I think of anyone who has believed in Jesus as the Messiah is a Christian, by definition, though they may have all sorts of backgrounds.  

[Paige]

I would consider it someone who has a Jewish mother but who also believes Jesus is the Jewish Messiah.

[IdahoHomeschooler]

It means "Christian" to me.

[Library Momma]

This explains the concept of the Messiah in Judiasm better than I can.  

 

http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

 

The ways in which Jesus is the Messiah in Christianity have no relation to the Messiah concept in Judiasm.

[susankenny]

I do not think non-Jewish people should label themselves Messianic Jews. I don't even understand that. However, I can see a Jewish person wanting to set themselves apart if they believed Christ was the Messiah. Although they are Christian, their practices would be unique. Just as Protestant and Eastern Orthodox differ, I can see a Messianic Jew wanting a distinct way to worship that was authentic to how they interpreted the Bible.

[kewb]

I do not think non-Jewish people should label themselves Messianic Jews. I don't even understand that. However, I can see a Jewish person wanting to set themselves apart if they believed Christ was the Messiah. Although they are Christian, their practices would be unique. Just as Protestant and Eastern Orthodox differ, I can see a Messianic Jew wanting a distinct way to worship that was authentic to how they interpreted the Bible.

 

I get where you are coming from but it is impossible to be a Jew who believes Jesus was the Messiah. One can call themselves a Jew for Jesus or a Messianic Jew but you would still be a Christian.  It is misleading to bill yourself as a Jew when you clearly are not.

 

[trulycrabby]

Are you referring to Jews who believe Christ is the Messiah, or about the idea of a (future) Messiah in Jewish faith?

[trulycrabby]

Sorry, double post. :o

[dbmamaz]

I grew up Jewish and my father was the most religious of our family.  At some point he became a messianic jew.  He brought me to a service once (and it kinda freaked me out). I'm pretty sure there were people in the congregation who came from both directions, Jews and Christians who felt this was the right spiritual path for them.  So to me, it means . . someone who attends a Messianic Jewish congregation or self-identifies that way.  Why does it matter which way they got there?  I mean, in most churches, do they distinguish between people who were born in to the church or who converted in?

[PuddleJumper1]

THANK YOU all so much for your thoughts. It is very helpful to read each and every post. I'm going to read through again several times and maybe ask a few specific questions.

 

As a side note - this is not about me personally. The situation has brought with it some arrogance I am struggling to understand so before I address that I wanted to see what The Hive says :)

 

I edited the original question to remove confusion.

[trulycrabby]

If a person calling herself a Messianic Jew identifies the Messiah as Jesus, then:

 

She most likely identifies as Jewish. A Christian might call her a Christian. An Orthodox Rabbi would call her a Christian.

 

If she does not accept or believe that Christ is the Messiah, but she believes there will someday be a Messiah, then she is Jewish.

[JFSinIL]

Some of my in-laws are Messianic Jews - the Jewish son married a Catholic, then they helped form a congregation (is that the word?) in the Chicago area.  The man is a Jew from birth who believes in Jesus.  They make it work.  Their two sons were brought up as Messianic Jews. They still celebrate all the major Jewish holidays AND Christmas/Easter, too.   

[mytwomonkeys]

If a person calling herself a Messianic Jew identifies the Messiah as Jesus, then:

 

She most likely identifies as Jewish. A Christian might call her a Christian. An Orthodox Rabbi would call her a Christian.

 

 

Those are my thoughts too. I assume it's a Jewish person that still identifies as Jewish and believes Jesus is the Messiah. I think it would be difficult for a typical church, regardless of denomination, to fully meet the Jewish heritage and traditions that they want to incorporate. It doesn't matter what I call them really, they want to identify themselves in a very specific way. They are calling themselves messianic Jews, which is a clear distinction IMO from other Jews.

[mamajudy]

I consider a Messianic Jew to be a Jewish person who believes in Jesus as Messiah. That person would be a Christian, but uses the term Messianic Jew to distinguish between a Jew who becomes a Christian and someone who is a Christian Gentile. Their heritage,or lineage, is still Jewish. 

[Jerico]

The messianic jew i knew was culturally jewish but believed that Christ was the messiah.

[Word Nerd]

No. 1 describes the ones I've known. 

[IdahoHomeschooler]

The "Messianic Jews" I've encountered have not been Jews in the least. They are Christians that somewhat follow OT guidelines, especially wrt diet. I find this somewhat baffling, because a Jew is only a Jew if certain guidelines of parental lineage are met, or a conversion happens within set conversion guidelines. One cannot simply call themselves a Jew and *poof* become a Jew.

[dbmamaz]

My father explained it as people who believed Jesus was the messiah but want to celebrate him in a jewish way

[mytwomonkeys]

The "Messianic Jews" I've encountered have not been Jews in the least. They are Christians that somewhat follow OT guidelines, especially wrt diet. I find this somewhat baffling, because a Jew is only a Jew if certain guidelines of parental lineage are met, or a conversion happens within set conversion guidelines. One cannot simply call themselves a Jew and *poof* become a Jew.

That made me giggle :) I agree!

[Crimson Wife]

The ones I know prefer the term "Hebraic Christian". They are culturally and ethnically Jewish but at some point in their lives accepted Yeshua (their name for Jesus) as Messiah. They still keep the cultural practices of Judaism but consider themselves to be Christians.

[Tohru]

I get where you are coming from but it is impossible to be a Jew who believes Jesus was the Messiah. One can call themselves a Jew for Jesus or a Messianic Jew but you would still be a Christian.  It is misleading to bill yourself as a Jew when you clearly are not.

 

 

Actually a Jewish person can believe in Jesus and you can call them a Christian, but that would not take away their Jewishness.  One is either Jewish by birth or by legal Judaic conversion. 

 

There are atheist Jews, agnostic Jews, Reform, Reconstructionist, Conservative, Orthodox, and even Messianic.  These people have met the Jewish legal requirements of being considered Jewish, regardless of what they believe about God. 

[vonfirmath]

I get where you are coming from but it is impossible to be a Jew who believes Jesus was the Messiah. One can call themselves a Jew for Jesus or a Messianic Jew but you would still be a Christian.  It is misleading to bill yourself as a Jew when you clearly are not.

 

 

I disagree because Jew is not just a religious label. it is also a cultural label. You can be culturally/genertically a Jew and not practice the Torah at all. You can also be culturally/genetically a Jew and believe Jesus is the Messiah.

 

I would expect Messianic Jews to be Jewish in that way. 

[SeaConquest]

Actually a Jewish person can believe in Jesus and you can call them a Christian, but that would not take away their Jewishness. One is either Jewish by birth or by legal Judaic conversion.

 

There are atheist Jews, agnostic Jews, Reform, Reconstructionist, Conservative, Orthodox, and even Messianic. These people have met the Jewish legal requirements of being considered Jewish, regardless of what they believe about God.

By halakha, Jewish law, this is correct. If you have a Jewish mother or underwent a halakhic Jewish conversion, you will always be Jewish regardless of what you believe or worship, or how you behave. One does not cease being Jewish, according to Jewish law. You can believe that Jesus is the messiah and violate all 613 commandments, but you're still a Jew. Sorry, there's no leaving this party. Having said that, a Jew for Jesus makes about as much sense as Jumbo Shrimp. Basically, you're a Christian.

[milovany]

Actually a Jewish person can believe in Jesus and you can call them a Christian, but that would not take away their Jewishness.  One is either Jewish by birth or by legal Judaic conversion.

 

Agreeing with this as far as I understand it.  Our (Eastern Orthodox) priest is a Jew.  He was born to Jewish parents, grew up in a Jewish part of NYC, and they were all atheists in his younger years; then he converted (turned) to Christ and is now a Christian priest.  He's still calls himself a Jew and I figure he'd know. 

 

As to the OP, I'd say "Messianic Jew" is closer to #2.  I think it typically means a protestant who has decided that the Messianic Jewish movement is the closest thing to the original church -- the way God wants us to worship with our Jewish roots and all -- and so they've started adapting the Jewish faith/practices to their own (Christian) religious beliefs. I'm saying that partly as someone who had started to explore this type of Messianic Judaism at one point. The thing is, there's NO historical evidence to support this approach to faith (meaning, nothing to show that this is what the early church did post-ascension). Messianic Judaism in this sense is a very, very recent innovation, and is wholly Christian. 

 

I was so thankful when we headed down that road that someone suggested we consider the ancient Orthodox church.  We longed for and were searching for "roots," a festal cycle, a connected history and thought maybe they were in the Messianic Jewish faith.  But we found what we were looking for -- and so much more -- in Orthodoxy. With that, rather than coming up with something from within ourselves based on what we thought things were like in the early church, instead we found the early church with 2000 years of history and practice, and went there.  We could sense that early Christianity was meant to be very, very different from what we'd experienced as modern American protestant Christians -- vastly so. It was such a relief to enter a church where all that "figuring out" had already been done, and now we just worship the Holy Trinity the way the most ancient of Christians did. 

 

The preceding has been based on our experience and understanding and my personal thoughts as to the OP. I realize it's not everyone's belief/understanding.

[KungFuPanda]

I like to sprinkle "Messianic Jews" into casual conversations just to watch my Jewish friends twitch. That, and "Jesus wants you to eat the pig."

[Laurie4b]

#1  I would not call someone who did not have Jewish lineage a Messianic Jew even if they attended a congregation of Messianic Jews. I know one Messianic Jewish woman. Her family attends a Messianic Jewish congregation. I don't know whether or not her husband would call himself a Messianic Jew. However, it makes no sense to me how someone not of Jewish heritage would call themselves this. However, I believe one should respect people's self-identifying.

 

Here is a Pew research study that addresses issues pertinent to your question: http://www.pewforum.org/2013/10/01/jewish-american-beliefs-attitudes-culture-survey/

 

Messianic Jews are not Jewish, they are Christian.  There is no way to believe Jesus is the Messiah and be a Jew at the same time.  There are no movements (denominations) in Judaism that consider Messianic Jews Jewish (meaning this isn't just my opinion).

 

Denominations are different than individuals, but this research finding from the Pew research study linked above seems significant: about 1/3 (34%) of religious Jews/Jews of no religion recognize Messianic Jews as Jewish. 60% do not. This includes about the same percentage of Orthodox Jews (35%) say that a Jew can believe that Jesus is Messiah and still be a Jew.

[ElaineJ]

I disagree because Jew is not just a religious label. it is also a cultural label. You can be culturally/genertically a Jew and not practice the Torah at all. You can also be culturally/genetically a Jew and believe Jesus is the Messiah.

 

I would expect Messianic Jews to be Jewish in that way. 

 

This would be my question. I understand just a little of the complex history and strong feeling behind this kind of question, but "Jewishness" is a cultural/ genetic identity as well as a religious one. It doesn't seem like a Jew who converts to another religion should suddenly- "poof"- have his or her whole heritage completely vanish. If I were to convert to Islam and move to Saudi Arabia, for instance, that wouldn't mean that I was a Muslim Saudi as if I was born there. It seems like there should be some similar implications here. I admit, though, that I don't have any personal experience or relationships with others to shed light on this subject, Just thinking here......

Elaine

 

[MissKNG]

A Jewish person who believes that Yeshua Ha-Mashiach - Jesus is Messiah. They don't necessarily have to be a practicing Orthodox Jew prior to believing this. There is a place in Israel that I volunteered at called Yad Hashmona. It's a moshav (like a kibbutz) that is operated by Messianic Jews.

 

[DawnM]

We have a Messianic Jewish place near us.  We have friends who go there.  I have heard it is mostly made up of #2 on your list but there are some #1s as well.

[mytwomonkeys]

We have a Messianic Jewish place near us. We have friends who go there. I have heard it is mostly made up of #2 on your list but there are some #1s as well.

When we lived in Charlotte, there was a messianic temple next to the church we attended. I always wanted to go just to see what it was like, but we never did :)

[umsami]

I generally think of number one--because I know a Jewish family who later became Messianic Jews.  However, I suppose it could also mean #2…just my experience relates to #1 more.

[kewb]

I disagree because Jew is not just a religious label. it is also a cultural label. You can be culturally/genertically a Jew and not practice the Torah at all. You can also be culturally/genetically a Jew and believe Jesus is the Messiah.

 

I would expect Messianic Jews to be Jewish in that way. 

 

Yes, if you are born a Jew you are always a Jew.  There is no leaving your origins.  You can call yourself whatever, observe whatever you want and in Judiasm you are a Jew.  Even if you convert the haters would still think of you as a Jew and be happy to exterminate you with the rest of the tribe.

 

From a purely religious stance if you are believing that Jesus was the messiah that makes you a Christian not an observant Jew.

 

[dbmamaz]

Wow, some very authoritative theologians on this thread.  

[PuddleJumper1]

Again - THANKS. Lots of knowledgeable people here at the Hive as always. I am appreciating each and every perspective. The links shared have offered several hours of interesting reading and a few very interesting rabbit trails :)

 

For the record my thought has always been #1. Seeing the differing thought processes is great.

[Dory]

A large portion of my family calls themselves Messianic and I've been to quite a few different Messianic congregations now. I see it as a Jew that has accepted Jesus as their messiah and a believing gentile that observes the Sabbath and the Feast Days. I know many of them follow the Torah fairly closely.

I know a couple non Jews who were circumcised as adults and call themselves Messianic and are in my parents group. Most the Messianic people up here have no desire to be called Christian. My mom is extremely firm on that, although she might be more so than others.

[Acorn]

My neighbors are Messianic Jews.  I thought that they would have celebrated Christmas, but they don't so I asked for more details.  They believe Yeshua was born and honor him, but only celebrate Jewish holidays.  They themselves would never say that they are Christians and identify as Messianic Jews. I know that the woman was raised in a Christian family, but I haven't asked what led to her current beliefs. 

[kewb]

A large portion of my family calls themselves Messianic and I've been to quite a few different Messianic congregations now. I see it as a Jew that has accepted Jesus as their messiah and a believing gentile that observes the Sabbath and the Feast Days. I know many of them follow the Torah fairly closely.

I know a couple non Jews who were circumcised as adults and call themselves Messianic and are in my parents group. Most the Messianic people up here have no desire to be called Christian. My mom is extremely firm on that, although she might be more so than others.

 

They might not have a desire to be called Christian but they are.  Judaism does not accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah.  Therefore, from a Jewish point of view they are Christian.

 

[kewb]

I don't know if that is still going on in my neck of the US but when I was growing up back in the 70's that is very much what was going on.  IMO, it is dishonest.

[Library Momma]

I have some thoughts I would like feedback on, if that's OK.

 

I was going to share a whole lot about my religious and cultural history but that is probably not necessary. In short, my local rabbi has told me about Messianic Judaism to draw parallels with the Chabad movement that is strong in my region of Europe. According to the rabbi and some books he lent me, Messianic congregations in the US often present themselves as "local synagogues" and reach out to Jews who aren't currently practicing Judaism but would like to, without specifying that they actually believe Jesus is the Messiah and are, as such, Christians. There are various reasons for this, but said rabbi says it is essentially a Baptist effort to convert certain numbers of Jews to Christianity in preparations for Jesus' second coming. It sounds very misleading. 

 

I didn't see that discussed here so thought I would mention it. I'd really love to hear thoughts on this from people who actually have Messianic congregations in their neighborhoods. 

I

This is basically the view that most Jews I know have as well.  I am not sure though your parallel with the Chabad.  The Chabad reaches out to Jews in an effort to help them become more Torah observant Jews.  The Messianic movement reaches out to Jews in order for them to become Christian.  I understand people here having a hard time separating cultural Judaism and the religious aspect.  I guess yes, people who become Messianic never lose their cultural identity as Jews, but there is no way to reconcile the two religions.  The beliefs are so divergent that you cannot be both.  It is like being a Christian and an Atheist at the same time.  You could have someone call themself a Christian Atheist because they celebrate Christmas and Easter secularly, but when it come to the religious aspect one cannot be both.