If you've been able to get your kids to respond without raising your voice...

[amo_mea_filiis.]

How did you do it? Did you ever have to raise your voice to get a response at some point? I'm more interested if you used to yell but somehow changed it. Whispering does nothing.

 

I see dd doing something I want her to stop, or not doing something I've asked her to do. What it is isn't important. This is what happens.

 

Me: dd, please stop (no need for me to be specific, she knows).

 

Me: Dd, please stop now.

 

Me: Dd, stop now.

 

Me: Dd, KNOCK IT OFF!

 

Dd: Why do you always yell at me?! (As she storms off)

 

I am so sick of being ignored. If you tell me that there should be a consequence, please say what exactly you would do.

 

I'm sure they don't respond until I yell because I've "allowed" it, but I have no idea how to pull them back in. I don't expect obedience, but if cooperation isn't happening, I guess I need to change something.

 

Sometimes things are time sensitive (we're getting ready to leave, go.brush.your.#$&%¥£€.teeth.NOW) and I'm just plain ignored.

[Pod's mum]

Yep. I can quietly reduce her to tears. Though that's not the intention.

I quietly say, "Book Ban". 1 day to start with.

 

Yes I sometimes still yell. It's a work in progess.

Book Ban is never used as a first offense punishment btw.

[Guest submarines]

It is not that I don't ever yell, but I'm most successful when I do the Gordon Neufeld approach of "collect and then correct."

 

Collecting can be either physical or just emotional / verbal.

 

Example:

 

DD is teasing DS. I'd come over, put my arm over her shoulder. (Collecting.) "Hey, what's up? You seem out of sorts." I rub her back. "Stop the teasing. Cool off and remember to apologize when you are ready."

 

DS playing on the tablet and I need him to start getting dressed. I'd come over, watch his game for half a minute. "Hey, that's really cool. How did you figure that thing out? On the first try? That's cool." Rub his back. "Finish up in 5 seconds, we have to leave."

 

Basically the idea is to get on the same page with the kid for a short period of time, get their attention this way (collecting), and then correcting. This is really effective with my kids. When I actually do it.

 

And then there are times when I sit here reading the forums, and I'll yell, "Hey! start getting ready for bed! Go brush your teeth!" And they keep on playing. :smilielol5:

[OnTheBrink]

Maybe she's not really hearing you initially because she's focused on something, so she only hears when you're yelling. Make her look at you, then tell her to stop whatever she's not supposed to be doing. Maybe that'll help her realize you're not really "yelling" at her; you're trying to get her attention. 

[Lucy the Valiant]

Could you ask her during a non-correcting time how SHE would prefer you to speak to her? One time I tried this with one of my kiddos, and it worked - he felt that I was correcting him too often (regarding 1 specific house chore that is his responsibility), and he felt that I was demeaning him by repeatedly asking. When I point-blank-but-gently asked him how I could (A) remind him of the chore while *simultaneously* (B) making him feel respected, it slowly dawned on him that . . . he needed to listen and just do it the first time.

 

It was one of those break-through moments for me, and we both kinda look back at it fondly (because in all fairness, I *do* sometimes nag him too much, and he *does* sometimes ignore me too much).

 

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Maybe she's not really hearing you initially because she's focused on something, so she only hears when you're yelling. Make her look at you, then tell her to stop whatever she's not supposed to be doing. Maybe that'll help her realize you're not really "yelling" at her; you're trying to get her attention.

It's the same scenario when I try to get her attention to look at me.

 

Based on how close I am to her and lack of background noise, I can't imagine she didn't hear me.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Me: dd, please stop (no need for me to be specific, she knows). 

 

No answer or change in behavior.

 

Me:  Dd, I asked you to stop.  (Said as I get up and go over to her.)  Please give me ____________.  or Please go to your room.  

 

Every single time.  

[bolt.]

I kinda can't work a specific answer to such a non-specific situation. I'd never use "stop" as an instruction -- I got used to the toddler rules of being clear, concrete and using to-do phrases in my instructions, so all of us are used to that.

 

So, is have to say, at very briefest, "Put that down." Or, "Settle, please."

 

Then I'd maybe say something like, "If you can't/won't (whatever), I'll need to (help in some way, do something as a logical result of the child's choice)."

 

Or, if it was easy, I'd just walk up and implement whatever I said, maybe a bit abruptly or with a frown, and a phrase like, "Hon, you need to follow instructions. Following instructions is an important part of being a happy family."

 

Anyhow, that sort of thing tends to be workable for us.

[BYE]

.

[Joanne]

Say it ONCE. Don't say please if it is not optional. Say it once, get up and make her comply.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

I have talked to her during a calm time. She always says she hears me but will have an excuse for the incident.

 

Many times she will be annoying someone and go way overboard. I've tried leaving her, but the whole situation escalates way beyond what it needs to be. That escalation has not proved effective in changing her behavior (ie, she's annoying ds, he eventually hits her, she continues to annoy until he hurts her).

 

When asked to do something, I'm always told "I was gonna," with an attitude. Obviously she's not gotten to it or I wouldn't be saying anything!

[mysticmomma]

Also needing help with this.

[Χά�ων]

Physical contact helps. Not smacking her upside the head! Putting your hand on her shoulder then saying what you need her to know/do in a whisper.

[Ellie]

I've never been a yell-er, so maybe my reply won't be that helpful, but I'll say it anyway, lol.

 

When I was a young parent, Dr. Dobson was very popular. His advice was to tell our children once, and if they didn't obey/comply/respond/whatever, to go to them and require them to do what we had told them to do. And so for the most part, that's how Mr. Ellie and I did it. Sometimes, we might have been more sweetness-and-light than others...

 

We also didn't *ask* them to do things like pick up their toys. We told them to do it (pleasantly, of course, not like drill sergeants, lol). We didn't ask them if they wanted to go to bed; we told them it was time to go. We didn't ask them if they wanted to take baths;  we told them it was time to take baths. IOW, if they didn't really have a choice, we didn't make it sound as if they did, KWIM?

 

Most of the time, things just never got to the point where we felt like yelling.

 

Perhaps we just had naturally obedient children, lol.

[Desert Strawberry]

I have talked to her during a calm time. She always says she hears me but will have an excuse for the incident.

 

Many times she will be annoying someone and go way overboard. I've tried leaving her, but the whole situation escalates way beyond what it needs to be. That escalation has not proved effective in changing her behavior (ie, she's annoying ds, he eventually hits her, she continues to annoy until he hurts her).

 

When asked to do something, I'm always told "I was gonna," with an attitude. Obviously she's gotten to it or I wouldn't be saying anything!

In this situation, I would stand up, take her by the hand, walk her to her room, quietly tell her that she may rejoin us when she is ready to keep her hands to herself , a be kind and respectful. Exactly as I would with my 4yo.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Say it ONCE. Don't say please if it is not optional. Say it once, get up and make her comply.

I have literally put my hand over her mouth (if that's the behavior) and she will just move my hand and keep talking!

 

I'll hand her the broom and she'll say "wait, I have to pee" as she's walking past me to the bathroom where she will not always be using the toilet.

 

Not sure how else to make her do/stop. :(

[Amy in NH]

I don't yell.  I call their name, in a normal voice, and give the instruction.  If they don't comply I count to three, in a normal voice.  If I get to three they go to their room.  They almost never get sent to their room, and honestly it's been a long time since I've had to count at all.

 

Also, they know what annoys me.  We've discussed what it is that makes me feel overstimulated, and how we don't need them to add stress to our day by doing those things.

 

1.  Set clear expectations and only a few important rules.

2.  Use natural and logical consequences. 

3.  Follow through and be consistent every time. 

[elegantlion]

I've rarely yelled. I also give details with requests, that is more my nature, such as brush your teeth, so your teeth don't rot, I can't afford the dental bill, and someday a girl may want to kiss you and she won't if your breath or teeth are nasty. Ds is logical and will respond to that. I also think of how I'd like to be talked to, how former bosses have talked to me, and that yelling can be perceived as anger, and anger makes people defensive,not responsive.

[dzingirl]

Thank you OP for posting this. I thought of posing this exact question a few days ago, but was afraid people would be snarky with me. DS has DH, DD and me at the end of our ropes. I am totally not the screaming type, but I have been doing it a lot lately. We've also been spanking and I'm not happy about that either. Nothing is working or making things any better.

[swellmomma]

I still raise my voice, particularily with oldest, but before it gets to that point generally I only ask nicely once, If I have to repeat myself I get a firmer voice and say "I asked merely to be polite, what I meant was do  X now".  80% of the time that works.  Occasionally I have to pull out my mom voice and that is a deeper stern voice, and is the voice I use when necessary with other people's children as well.  Combine that with "the look" and they tend to get moving.  THat brings me up to about 90% of the time.  The other 10% is those days when their heads are spinning like the exorcist and they are acting like animals.  THose days I raise my voice, not necessarily a full yell but louder for sure, and then there is the 5% where I yell because I am acting like a lunatic having just lost my mind and am so fed up I yell because I am feeling unheard.  THat 5% is followed up with the apologies later for forgetting to be the adult in the situation.  That 5% usually happens when I have a lot of other stressors going on (especially when I am PMSing and then the kids are hyper/noncompliant etc in addition to it.  What has worked for me when I am dealing with noncompliance etc is to treat them like I am being paid to watch them.  It's stupid but we were at a point for a while there where I was treating daycare kids better than my own, daycare kids might get my mom voice but they would never be yelled at by me.  Why should they get better treatment than my own flesh and blood?  Keeping that in mind means I only lose myself and yell at the rarest of times like I said, and generally because I am PMSing and that makes me cranky with the world. 

While you are working towards a solution, for the immediate of stopping yourself from yelling, imagine yourself being videotaped during your interactions, or that you are being paid to watch these kids.  You will be amazed at how differently you will speak/approach situations if you think of it in those terms.  You will still need to find a way that works for your family as far as gaining compliance etc but that can be a bandaid measure in the meantime to reduce or eliminate any yelling.

[swellmomma]

Thank you OP for posting this. I thought of posing this exact question a few days ago, but was afraid people would be snarky with me. DS has DH, DD and me at the end of our ropes. I am totally not the screaming type, but I have been doing it a lot lately. We've also been spanking and I'm not happy about that either. Nothing is working or making things any better.

 

Your ds is 3, it's his job to drive you all batty.  When it comes to 3 year olds you are not going to get immediate compliance, this is the age when you start teaching that, not expecting it.  At age 3 things are still very much hand over hand etc.  Meaning, you don't simply say "go put your socks and shoes on" you take him by the hand and lead him to where you store the shoes etc and say "let's get these on so we can go".  You don't say "put away your blocks" you say "I'm going to pick up the red blocks, and you can pick up the blue blocks, lets count who has more" if he refuses to clean up, you place your hands over his and pick up the toys so he is still doing it.  If he is pushing boundaries with sassiness etc then you give him a time out.  A 3 year old should only hear screaming when it is life and limb, and it should be limited to the 1 code word chosen for that.  For us it was "freeze"  that stopped them dead in their tracks.  We practiced that one when it was not a life or limb situation with discipline for noncompliance (things such as "you didn't listen when mommy said freeze so now I have to hold your hand to keep you safe" )

[Incognito]

Thank you OP for posting this. I thought of posing this exact question a few days ago, but was afraid people would be snarky with me. DS has DH, DD and me at the end of our ropes. I am totally not the screaming type, but I have been doing it a lot lately. We've also been spanking and I'm not happy about that either. Nothing is working or making things any better.

 

With a 3yo, you have to get in their face and be right there, hand over hand, helping them be obedient.

 

OP - it sounds like an attitude/heart issue.  Your DD is not treating you respectfully, and it is coming out in how she is talking to you, and how she is not paying attention to your requests.  So the actual thing she does in the moment isn't the thing to focus on, it is her general attitude of disrespect.  I'd talk with her about respect, how to show respect, and how you can all show one another respect.  Elevate the virtue - respectfulness.  Make respect something you are all working on in your household.

 

As far as in the moment - I will tell my kids exactly what to say to me and have them repeat it back.  If I have asked them to do something, I don't repeat myself, I ask them, "What did I just say?"  I ask them to acknowledge when they have heard me, so I know (with a "Yes Mom" or something similar).  If they will do what I have asked, but feel a more pressing need (like your DD and the bathroom), I tell them they should be asking me first if it is okay for them to do that first, or talking to me in a nice tone saying they need to do that first. 

 

My kids aren't older, so I don't know how it will ultimately pan out, but for their ages (which are about what your DD is), it works pretty well.  I do find that if I am getting attitude, I need to look at how our relationship is in general (and I might need to try to spend more time connecting with them, or I might need to stop getting on their case about little things).

[La Condessa]

I am really struggling with this lately with my girls, too.

 

I have no wisdom to offer, but I just wanted to add to make really, totally certain, if you have a kid who often seems to ignore you, that they really can hear. It took a long time for my parents to figure out that generally I was " ignoring" them when they spoke to me from the side or behind or I was looking down at something, but that when they spoke at the same volume or quieter while I was looking in their direction, I responded. I had learned to lip read so naturally that I was not even aware that I was doing anything different from anyone else.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Hearing is good here. :-)

 

Dd has mild autism (I know, I know, that's a huge part of this) and has had her hearing checked a few times.

[Pod's mum]

My eldest, who also had no hearing problems, needed to have her eyes on me to 'hear' me.

From tiny, her brain needed the visual stimulation as well as the verbal.

 

I was discussing dd the younger with a friend recently and we were discussing how she (the younger) will get very upset when reprimanded over something, tear up, recover, and then repeat.

She just gets busy and forgets.

She is quite ADD like her mum, but I still think of her as a very easy child because of her predecessor.

 

She is also, mostly, not yet adolescent.

Which is all the difference in the world.

[Dory]

With both my boys I have to make sure they are looking at me. 

Getting them to look first really does help, and if I need it done right away, I make them repeat back to me what I just said. Repeating really, really helps with my oldest ds. My ds sometimes doesn't fully hear what I say or misunderstands what I say. If I make him look and then repeat, it's rare that he doesn't do what I tell him to. If I don't make him look  and sometimes repeat, the odds that he will do what he's told drop exponentially.

[Mom in High Heels]

I swear no one can hear me if I don't raise my voice.  It makes me crazy.  I can say something 2-3 times in my normal voice and get no response from anyone (James Bond included), but the minute I raise my voice everyone starts asking me why I'm yelling.   :cursing:  :banghead:

[jetzmama]

A book that helped me identify and understand my own 'trigger points' was She's Gonna Blow. We all struggle with anger at some point and having a visual of how this builds under the surface was very helpful. Not saying you're an angry person! Just that we all deal with it at times. Seems like it may have been written by a Christian woman, but it's been awhile, so can't be sure. My takeaway was a concrete visual of how I got to the point of yelling and some practical tips to 'release' before hitting that point.

[Ellie]

I swear no one can hear me if I don't raise my voice.  It makes me crazy.  I can say something 2-3 times in my normal voice and get no response from anyone (James Bond included), but the minute I raise my voice everyone starts asking me why I'm yelling.   :cursing:  :banghead:

 

It's possible you have trained them not to hear you until the third time and your voice is raised. :-)

 

You tell them one time. When they don't do what you have told them to do (or whatever reply/action is necessary), you get up and require them to do it right now.

 

And FTR, there is nothing wrong with telling your children to do something instead of asking them to do something.

[bolt.]

I have literally put my hand over her mouth (if that's the behavior) and she will just move my hand and keep talking!

 

I'll hand her the broom and she'll say "wait, I have to pee" as she's walking past me to the bathroom where she will not always be using the toilet.

 

Not sure how else to make her do/stop. :(

Those seem like fairly easy things to follow up.

 

( a) "You can be silent, or you can go to another room. Choose now." (Followed by: escorting her to another room and closing the door if needed.)

 

( b )"The broom will be waiting for you in 2 minutes. Come right back." (Followed by: setting a 2 minute timer, going and getting her, escorting her back to the broom-handoff spot, re-handing the broom, and supervising while co-working in the same room, using a chatty demeanour... As needed.)

[trulycrabby]

The child should be trained not to say, "wait, I have to go to the bathroom." She must say, "May I please go to the bathroom?" I know that sounds nitpicky, but with the first sentence, the child is in control and making you wait. With the second sentence, you are in control and can graciously grant the request or not, depending on her attitude. If the child is forgetful, you hand her the broom after she gets out of the bathroom.

[dirty ethel rackham]

You give the instruction once.  Then follow up with action.  In the case you illustrated, if the child does not comply, you get up and calmly remove the child from the situation saying something to the effect of "I told you to stop.  Since you can't obey, you need to leave this situation."  Do not argue. (If they try, state "no arguments.") Do not emotionally engage.  Parenting from a distance is rarely effective.  If you try to parent from afar, you will resort to yelling.  You may need to adjust for individual differences - like a child who has processing issues who may need the physical interruption to make sure they are paying attention to you.  But the philosophy is the same - state what you want and follow up.  I do believe that explanations can be good in helping a child develop an internal sense of discipline, but explaining should not devolve into arguing and disrespect.  Children who are complying and asking respectfully earn the right to explanations and, possibly, negotiation.  But whining and arguing do not.

 

Take a look at Joanne's Get Off Your Butt Parenting website - she has a wealth of information on how to be an effective parent. 

[amo_mea_filiis.]

It seems that everything "requires" a raised voice. I very rarely am across the room or anything. I will go right to her, touch her face, and she still ignores. I'll hand her her toothbrush and she takes it and puts it down. I'll stand in the doorway of her tiny room telling her to pick up towels and she'll pick up everything but the towels.

 

I can't always be specific in front of ds because that will escalate the moment.

 

I'll step back a little and evaluate like I do for ds's behavior. I'm obviously missing a piece here with her.

[Gentlemommy]

Say it ONCE. Don't say please if it is not optional. Say it once, get up and make her comply.

This seemingly simple advice has changed the way I parent. I read it years ago on another board, and when I DO it (hard to follow through all.the.time!!!) it's amazing how calm and peaceful things go. Every time I watch a parent lose it, it's because they've said the same thing fifteen times. But from across the room. Without getting up. Making it happen doesn't have to be a punishment, it just needs to be matter of fact. I'm not saying my kids listen perfectly. ;) However, by the time they are around four/five, they are pretty cooperative, and either say yes mom and go do it, or respectfully ask for time/help/a different idea/ect.

[Ellie]

I have literally put my hand over her mouth (if that's the behavior) and she will just move my hand and keep talking!

 

I'll hand her the broom and she'll say "wait, I have to pee" as she's walking past me to the bathroom where she will not always be using the toilet.

 

Not sure how else to make her do/stop. :(

 

You gently take her arm and put the broom in her hand, while looking her in the eyeball. And you say, "Dear, sweep first. Pee later. Your bladder will not explode in the next five minutes." Unless you know for a fact that she has a bladder the size of lint...

 

I cannot imagine my children removing my hand from their mouths if I felt the need to put it there. It would be the last time they behaved that way, I can promise you.

[Alexigail]

With my son who is on the milder side of the spectrum, I DO have to specify what I want him to stop doing.  I also have to give him an alternative behavior to practice.  Then I have to offer a consequence for not stopping.  

"Stop, shouting.  I need you to use a quieter voice."

"I've asked you to stop shouting.  If you don't use a quieter voice, I will put you in your room to calm down."

 

Then I have to follow through with the consequence.  

 

I'm still not 100% with this because it is SO frustrating to deal with non-responsiveness like that and I have a tough time remembering all the steps (specify the problem behavior, provide an alternate action and explain the consequence every time).  It's also never 100% effective, but when I just say "stop it" over and over again, he complies maybe 20% of the time while using this method, it's about 80%.

 

I have no idea if this will work for you, but it's helped a lot in our house.

[fdrinca]

Reiterating much of what was said above:

 

Say it once, with authority, without asking or saying "please." If that is not effective, get up and direct behavior. Doing so with a "collect and correct" attitude helps keep everyone happier. 

 

DH finds it hard to "manage" the kids because he's always asking/saying please then getting REALLY ANGRY FRUSTRATED when the kids don't listen. His attitude swings so wildly (in their opinion, because they're ignoring his ramp-up) that it ends up alienating the kids. Everyone gets sad.

 

I find it's so much easier to YELL than it is to get up and help them do the right thing. I know I need to take care of myself (more rest, better nutrition) when I find myself yelling at the kids.

 

I also think by keeping "please" out of the equation, it really keeps the word kind. So, for example, DH will often say, "will you PLEASE do XYZ," so now the usage of "please" is almost always sarcastic. Do you know what sounds terrible? Parroted sarcasm coming from a three-year-old.

[kbutton]

Hearing is good here. :-)

 

Dd has mild autism (I know, I know, that's a huge part of this) and has had her hearing checked a few times.

 

I was going to ask if your daughter is neurotypical because it sounds so very much like DS9 with Asperger's. Many of these suggestions will work for my son sometimes--(cue "when the moon is in the 7th house, and Jupiter aligns with Mars...") when he is in the right mood, etc., and many days when these ideas don't work, it's not a heart issue with him. In fact, many times, he's appalled and upset at his own response but so very tired of not remembering to stop himself that he's a mess over that also. He really does try to do things like ask permission if my interruption reminded him that he needs to go to the bathroom, etc., but he just doesn't remember. Sometimes fining him helps, but we feel bad if we have to do that (we usually start with small coins for forgetfulness and bigger change like quarters for being irritable and dug in about something). Touching a shoulder (or any physical intervention no matter how mild) can provoke a physical response if he's having a sensory day (fight or flight, brain involvement leaves the scene, it gets ugly fast).

 

Maybe you should also post a spin-off question on the Special Needs board. If it does help to use physical intervention with your daughter, I would try it with mind-numbing and demoralizing consistency. I would expect it to take significantly longer to work than it does for the posters who have neurotypical kids. (I need to put things in these terms for myself--if I expect the worst, I am pleasantly surprised when it turns out better.)

 

My other son shows a strong likelihood of having CAPD (including a failed screening), and he also had poor vision for long time before we knew, so he often can't see something (not used to looking for things now that he can see). He does need physical help and intervention (he's also an extrovert that always wants interaction). The extremes of my two kids sometimes make me feel like nailing jello to a tree would be a better use of my time. :-) Good luck! Consider cross-posting this question.

[bolt.]

It seems that everything "requires" a raised voice. I very rarely am across the room or anything. I will go right to her, touch her face, and she still ignores. I'll hand her her toothbrush and she takes it and puts it down. I'll stand in the doorway of her tiny room telling her to pick up towels and she'll pick up everything but the towels.

 

I can't always be specific in front of ds because that will escalate the moment.

 

I'll step back a little and evaluate like I do for ds's behavior. I'm obviously missing a piece here with her.

 

You seem to be in a state of communication where she has learned to interpret normal tone as "not very serious" and a raised voice as "serious now" -- I don't know how you got there, but it's OK. It's also OK to change it now. You need a new and novel-seeming way to communicate the "serious now" message. She's not going to change her interpretation matrix without new data.

 

I suggest that you approach her, getting right in close -- like nose within 4 inches of her nose kind of close -- make eye contact and and say (in a completely normal voice), something like, "I'm serious about my words. I said 'pick up the towel' -- so that means it's something to do right now. The next thing your hand touches will be the towel. Do it now."

 

However, I totally don't suggest picking battles over towels. Over towels, don't give a direct instruction in the first place.

 

I suspect that you might (just guessing) have gotten here because of a very common parental tendency to speak in the "useless imperative tense" to children. This is my tongue-in-cheek way of describing the habit we have of filling our children's lives with direct instructions when there isn't any real need for it. Very few children in very few situations actually need to be told, "Put on your coat." -- as a direct instruction. Most children would respond exactly the same way to a person who said, "Here is your coat." Similarly they don't (99% of the time) need to be told, "Come for supper." -- when it is just as simple to say, "It's supper time."

 

Over towels, a suggestion ("Those towels don't belong on the floor.") or a reminder, ("Hey, don't forget about the towels too.") or a when-then, ("When you've returned the towels to where they belong, I will help you with your laundry basket.") or a request, ("Would you mind grabbing those towels for me?")... Would all be perfectly good ways of communicating what you want. You can follow all of them up with supervision and help without either of you feeling the pressure that it's now an "obedience issue" -- some things are obedience issues. For those issues, by ALL means, use direct instructions and make sure it's seen as serious... but not everything IS serious, and even things that are serious don't need to be the very next thing she does that minute just because that's the minute that you gave the instruction in.

 

(If {whatever} is only serious because you made it serious by telling her what to do, and that's why her not doing {whatever} is a big deal, because now it's not about {whatever} it's about doing / not doing what you are told -- that's an internal hint for you that your choice of phrasing prompted the stress. Her response is secondary. The towels were simple housekeeping until you gave a direct instruction -- then they became an obedience issue. You can sidestep these issues by not applying direct instructions to them in the first place.)

 

All kids have a 'seriousness detection system' -- volume is a part of that. However, you can make your phrasing much clearer, and use your words to tell her which things are very serious. She will begin to get it. However, she will get it much quicker and easier if you reserve your direct instruction grammar (the imperative tense) for things that actually matter. If everything matters that much to you, your child is likely to think you are completely off your rocker -- which messes with their ability to detect actual seriousness. There's a scale of seriousness. Things should be as serious as they actually are -- nothing should get a boost of seriousness because you gave a direct instruction and therefore made it into an issue of obedience. Obedience (following instructions) matters... but it matters quite a bit too much to be going on in a child's world 65 times a day. Save your words and, when you use them, make them count.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I noticed that your examples are ones that involve stopping her from doing something that is escalating your son.  Instead of asking her to stop, I would ask her to do something else.  So perhaps initially a "come here" and then you both do something that removes her from the situation and keeps the children apart for a few minutes at least.  

[kbutton]

You seem to be in a state of communication where she has learned to interpret normal tone as "not very serious" and a raised voice as "serious now" -- I don't know how you got there, but it's OK. It's also OK to change it now. You need a new and novel-seeming way to communicate the "serious now" message. She's not going to change her interpretation matrix without new data. My DS9 with Asperger's still doesn't know how to read body language or tone of voice to know serious, not serious, etc. He gets uncomfortable and anxious in response to pressure of various kinds, but he doesn't know WHY until  you walk him through it. And he appears very normal in most situations. Yelling is about the only way he knows someone is upset, frustrated, serious, etc. unless you tell him, point blank, that you are serious. We have learned many coping mechanisms over the years, but we did lay down an unfruitful habit of yelling because for many years, that was the only thing that worked, and we had no idea why or why not. (He's only been diagnosed for a few months.) We are pretty responsive parents (our psych told us we've remediated a lot of our son's difficulties without any training simply by being responsive), but being ignored is par for the course around here at times.

 

I suggest that you approach her, getting right in close -- like nose within 4 inches of her nose kind of close -- make eye contact and and say (in a completely normal voice), something like, "I'm serious about my words. I said 'pick up the towel' -- so that means it's something to do right now. The next thing your hand touches will be the towel. Do it now." My son would freak out to have someone in his face.

 

However, I totally don't suggest picking battles over towels. Over towels, don't give a direct instruction in the first place.

 

I suspect that you might (just guessing) have gotten here because of a very common parental tendency to speak in the "useless imperative tense" to children. This is my tongue-in-cheek way of describing the habit we have of filling our children's lives with direct instructions when there isn't any real need for it. Very few children in very few situations actually need to be told, "Put on your coat." -- as a direct instruction. Most children would respond exactly the same way to a person who said, "Here is your coat." Similarly they don't (99% of the time) need to be told, "Come for supper." -- when it is just as simple to say, "It's supper time." I think this is a good point for a neurotypical kid. However, there isn't a human being related to my husband by blood that would know what you mean when you say, "here is your coat." And none of them are on the spectrum, though they are not neurotypical either. I called my husband in here to read this posting--I'm not exaggerating. He said that it could also mean, "hang up your coat," and I know from experience that they might respond with something like, "yeah, it's my coat." He said, "It's supper time" was even more open to interpretation.

 

You can follow all of them up with supervision and help without either of you feeling the pressure that it's now an "obedience issue" -- some things are obedience issues. For those issues, by ALL means, use direct instructions and make sure it's seen as serious... but not everything IS serious, and even things that are serious don't need to be the very next thing she does that minute just because that's the minute that you gave the instruction in.

 

(If {whatever} is only serious because you made it serious by telling her what to do, and that's why her not doing {whatever} is a big deal, because now it's not about {whatever} it's about doing / not doing what you are told -- that's an internal hint for you that your choice of phrasing prompted the stress. Her response is secondary. The towels were simple housekeeping until you gave a direct instruction -- then they became an obedience issue. You can sidestep these issues by not applying direct instructions to them in the first place.)

 

I think these are good points, but I don't think that changing how something is phrased from direct to indirect is going to get this across for a kid on the spectrum. Maybe things that don't need to be immediate obedience issues should be put on a whiteboard that the child can carry around and erase as the tasks are completed. My son loves lists, and I definitely don't use them often enough. He also sometimes hurries and gets careless for the pleasure of crossing items of the list too, lol! But that's not as big of a deal if we go through the list together later as follow-up. The hard part is that it's really time consuming to make lists when you just need something simple done--it's so much easier to give a verbal order and keep on moving yourself.

 

I commented in the text to make things more clear (I hope). I'm really not trying to be contrary, but my parents tend to do what is described here very naturally. They do not find it effective with my son who has Asperger's. He requires very direct instruction. I comment only to highlight that it's different with neurotypical children. Parents whose kids have special needs carry around a special load of frustration and guilt when the typical parenting skills and strategies won't quite work but they don't know what else to do or how to tweak those ideas.

[bolt.]

I tend not to wade in to issues of special needs because I know that my methods are not specialized or professionally researched. They will probably be ineffective, as you say, for kids who are not neurotypical.

 

... But, did I miss something? Is there some indication on the thread that the OP is looking for special needs advice? Usually I catch that. I hope I'm not misreading something and giving bad ideas here.

[Whereneverever]

Op is a long time poster and both of her children have special needs.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

I noticed that your examples are ones that involve stopping her from doing something that is escalating your son. Instead of asking her to stop, I would ask her to do something else. So perhaps initially a "come here" and then you both do something that removes her from the situation and keeps the children apart for a few minutes at least.

Sadly, yes. Most of it is escalation based. I *am* working on ds tolerating "life" as it happens, but his tolerating needs to build up over time. I do separate and am good at judging which moments will escalate and which are safe to let ride out.

 

Dd's biggest issue is not being able to stop speaking immediately (you'd think that ds hitting would alter her behavior or at least proximity, but it doesn't at all). I've made time for dd to spill her stories from the day and have encouraged her to text me (and we talk later) and I've even given her a private notebook to talk about ds in. But still, in the moment, ds is getting agitated, and I'm tripping over myself to get between them all while ds starts hitting and dd is *still* telling her story!

 

The towel example comes up often only because her room is carpeted and her towels are soaked. So no, towels shouldn't be a huge issue.... But come on! Get.the.wet.towel.OFF.your.floor! (For the record, she has NEVER picked them up, but as long as the wet towels are on a tile floor, I don't choose the battle).

 

I just drew up some FBA observation charts and am going to track this week before changing anything. I have a feeling that I'll have to be more vigilant before problems because I'm not sure I'll be able to intervene at the proper consequence moment (iow, if ds's reaction is somehow motivating dd, I will not be able to top that or change ds).

 

Now that dd's in school, I need to look hard to see if attention is a current motivator. If so, that'll be easier. I have a feeling this stuff is more escape related which is harder to change.

[SKL]

For me, I do occasionally yell, but I've gotten pretty good about avoiding it.  Partly because they know that I expect their cooperation in keeping me from having to either raise my voice or repeat myself more than 2x.

 

Usually I just say a thing calmly and they can tell I mean it and won't be sweet about their ignoring me.  But sometimes they try their luck.

 

When I feel ignored, I insist that my kids stop what they are doing and give me their full attention before I say what I have to say.  I finish with "do you understand," and they must say "I understand" and sometimes I make them repeat my message to confirm it did in fact register.  If it's discipline-worthy, this is when I tell them what the consequence will be.

 

If I am reduced to yelling, usually it's because one or all of us are screwed up by sugar or PMS or high work deadline stress etc.  I get it out and remind them that they need to do xyz if they don't want to be yelled at.  Then I forgive myself and everybody moves on.

[SKL]

One thing that has started happening, which is kinda funny.  When I say something quietly and Miss A (who is the more rule-bound of the two) will tell Miss E, "can't you tell by her voice that she's getting angry?  You'd better stop."  I'm usually not angry, just getting ready to go into discipline mode.  I guess from a kid's perspective, it may seem like the same thing.

[kbutton]

I tend not to wade in to issues of special needs because I know that my methods are not specialized or professionally researched. They will probably be ineffective, as you say, for kids who are not neurotypical.

 

... But, did I miss something? Is there some indication on the thread that the OP is looking for special needs advice? Usually I catch that. I hope I'm not misreading something and giving bad ideas here.

 

She mentioned in one of the posts that her child has mild autism. It was easy to miss. When I read her posts, I thought, "that sounds like my son with Asperger's," and sure enough, I saw that she mentioned that at some point in the thread (not the original post). I do think your ideas have a GREAT BASIS, and so do the ideas of the others. I also know that it can be hard to ask a question, hear ideas that haven't worked in the past, or hear that you've trained your child to respond wrong, etc. and feel a bit deflated. It's hard sometimes to get to the root of why you'd do A (if the poster isn't responding from a SN framework), and then tweak A to work with your child with special needs. Since the OP replied with some back and forth information about what she's tried, I suggested the OP repeat this question on the Special Needs board. I don't think anyone here has browbeaten anyone else, but I do know that on the receiving end of things, I am SO much more sensitive to anything that could possibly be critical after lots of hard work to get as far as we've gotten (much of it through really hard trial and error because we had no diagnosis). I've had people IRL be quite judgmental and mean prior to my son's diagnosis (and some of them would likely argue with his diagnosis too!).

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Bolt, mine both have some special needs, but your posts actually reminded me that I need to do a formal FBA (functional behavior assessment) with dd. I know ds's results in and out, but I've never done one on dd.

 

Changing my words regarding the towels will help. I'll just remind dd that I'm doing laundry and to go stick her towels in the machine.

 

Thank you everyone. :)

[Dandelion]

... But, did I miss something? Is there some indication on the thread that the OP is looking for special needs advice? Usually I catch that. I hope I'm not misreading something and giving bad ideas here.

 

Yes, her DD has mild autism and she has posted about her special needs many times.  Also see post #24 in this thread. 

 

 

Dd has mild autism (I know, I know, that's a huge part of this) and has had her hearing checked a few times.

 

[MAIMOM]

I'll stand in the doorway of her tiny room telling her to pick up towels and she'll pick up everything but the towelsh her.

This is a heart issue...she is being blatantly defiant...challenging you to see what you are going to do. I cannot really give you a set in stone example of a consequence for an action. Each child is different and will respond differently. Look at what matters to her and use that to help motivate her from within herself to want to obey your instruction.

 

I can give an example of what I mean....DD was to keep the kitchen dishes done over the summer...she was having trouble following through and then would have to go to band camp..no dishes done. Finally one day I sat down in the chair and said my car drives when my kitchen is clean. She responded with " I will be late to band" too which I replied" if you do not want to be late then next time ensure your chores are finished before it's time to go". I never had to mention the dishes again that summer.....band was important to her so she wanted to cooperate.

 

I notice there has not been a consequence mentioned in any of your examples.....Sweep the floor....or what?

She is asking that question over and over it would seem. What are you going to do about it?

I thought of another example..."you need to clean your room by noon today. If a thorough job is not done then I will bring a garbage bag in and I will clean it for you". It only took one time of mom throwing everything left out of place away( except things like shoes and jackets....my choice to keep it out). From then on when they would say "I do not want to clean my room" I would simply say"no problem, I will be happy to do it for you".

 

Decide in advance what the command is, what the result will be if not followed, state those and them be prepared to follow though every time. Actually expect her to challenge you the first few times so just pretend to be busy about your own agenda...instead be standing by to follow though on your request and the consequence.