............

[albeto.]

Can I come????  I'll bring cupcakes AND drinks.  I need both.

 

You MUST come! 

 

The more the merrier!

[StaceyinLA]

I guess I've always assumed that tolerance is pretty foundational to our society and our government. And, obviously we just see this very differently, because I still don't understand how insisting that everyone's rights and needs be respected equates to being intolerant of anyone.

Because tolerance of Christians just doesn't seem to be required with the same fervor as it is for other religions.

[StaceyinLA]

I assure you it does, but I don't know how I would convince you of that.

I'd love to see it in action. I just don't.

[StaceyinLA]

I think one important point you might be overlooking is that "hate crimes" are legally defined as crimes against people based on allegiance or perceived allegiance to a protected group. This group includes religion. All religion. Muslims, Wiccians, Satanists, and Christians alike. Also, mockery and ridicule aren't crimes. Because of our right to free speech, mockery, ridicule, even blasphemy are all tolerated (certain restrictions apply, like inciting violence). I think this slippery slope to which you allude isn't well established. There are too many built in road blocks that prevent this scenario.

I'm not overlooking that. I'm saying that technically Christians SHOULD be protected, but they don't seem to be as protected as some other groups are. And, as I said, I think mockery WILL BE considered a hate crime at some point, if aimed at the right target. We are headed down that path. I don't agree that there are road blocks that will stop it. Our government is sliding down slippery slopes every day.

[StaceyinLA]

You MUST come!

 

The more the merrier!

Well dang I wanna come. I need a drink like nobody's business! ;-p

[albeto.]

I'm not overlooking that. I'm saying that technically Christians SHOULD be protected, but they don't seem to be as protected as some other groups are. And, as I said, I think mockery WILL BE considered a hate crime at some point, if aimed at the right target. We are headed down that path. I don't agree that there are road blocks that will stop it. Our government is sliding down slippery slopes every day.

 

Maybe it would help if I could see in what way you see Christians are not protected in like measure to other religious people. What rights do Christians lack that is given to other religions? I don't mean personal behavior, but legislated rights. I think that's important because we can all share anecdotal experiences that will differ from each other, but the objective criteria I'm looking for is the legally recognized policy.

 

Also, do you think the right to freedom of speech will be repealed for the sake of mocking Christians or other religions?

[albeto.]

Well dang I wanna come. I need a drink like nobody's business! ;-p

 

You get the first drink! What's yer poison?

[Pawz4me]

Without having read the last two pages --

 

I think the allegation of a "war" on Christmas is yet another example of (many) Christians acting in direct contradiction to what Christ taught.

 

And I think many people need to do some research into the history of the celebration of Christmas as a holiday, and how many of our modern Christmas "traditions" came to be. The level of ignorance is stunning.

[Rosie_0801]

I'd love to see it in action. I just don't.

 

Well you wouldn't. You aren't going to see what people don't do, or hear what they don't say. And since you don't see or hear those things, you aren't going to appreciate them having been left undone and unsaid.

 

 

[ThisIsTheDay]

I have not read through all of the replies, but I have been shocked this year to see almost ZERO religion associated with Christmas in retail stores.  I was looking for some kind of Christian-themed wrapping paper. I wasn't picky, but I didn't want santas or snowmen.  We looked at Walmart, Target, Kohl's, Michael's.  Target had ONE--I can't remember exactly what it was, because it didn't work for what I needed.  I went to a Christian bookstore to find it.

 

There was nothing in the way of Christian-themed ornaments at the major retailers, although there are nativity scenes/figurines..

 

I don't know if I've never noticed the lack of this before, or if it's recent.  My impression is that the "war on Christmas" is being fought by a small but vocal group; however, the retailers seem to have jumped right out of the way, avoiding the reason we celebrate Christmas in the first place.  People in general seem tolerant--Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays (which is "holy days," sheesh!), Happy Hanukkah, etc.

[Mrs Mungo]

I have not read through all of the replies, but I have been shocked this year to see almost ZERO religion associated with Christmas in retail stores. I was looking for some kind of Christian-themed wrapping paper. I wasn't picky, but I didn't want santas or snowmen. We looked at Walmart, Target, Kohl's, Michael's. Target had ONE--I can't remember exactly what it was, because it didn't work for what I needed. I went to a Christian bookstore to find it.

I don't know that I have ever seen Christian themed wrapping paper.

 

There was nothing in the way of Christian-themed ornaments at the major retailers, although there are nativity scenes/figurines..

I have seen lots of Christian themed greeting cards, advent calendars, ornaments and figurines. Lots. What does it take for you to see something as Christian themed? For example, Target this year had lots of things with "Noel" on them; that makes it Christian-themed, yes? There are lots of decorations that have "peace and joy" on them, that is a Christian theme to me. Hallmark had their usual assortment of ornaments which this year include: 8 different angels, a birthday cupcake with "Jesus" on it, 3 nativity scenes, a stained glass window, 2 crosses, Noah's ark, a dove, a lion with a lamb and dove in addition to other Christian-themes. What is you believe they are missing, exactly?

 

I don't know if I've never noticed the lack of this before, or if it's recent. My impression is that the "war on Christmas" is being fought by a small but vocal group; however, the retailers seem to have jumped right out of the way, avoiding the reason we celebrate Christmas in the first place. People in general seem tolerant--Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays (which is "holy days," sheesh!), Happy Hanukkah, etc.

I have zero trouble finding Christian themed items in every Christmas category except wrapping paper, but I have never even looked for something that specific.

[TeacherZee]

I find this such an interesting debate because it is partly a debate about etymology, the word used for this holiday that takes place around the 24th of December. I know that this has already been mentioned but I thought I would point out that in many languages other than English the word is not Christmas at all but rather derivatives of the old germanic word Yule.

[Onceuponatime]

I think one important point you might be overlooking is that "hate crimes" are legally defined as crimes against people based on allegiance or perceived allegiance to a protected group. This group includes religion. All religion. Muslims, Wiccians, Satanists, and Christians alike. Also, mockery and ridicule aren't crimes. Because of our right to free speech, mockery, ridicule, even blasphemy are all tolerated (certain restrictions apply, like inciting violence). I think this slippery slope to which you allude isn't well established. There are too many built in road blocks that prevent this scenario.

 

Weelll, Sam Harris, who is an equal opportunity mocker of religions, seems to agree with the sentiment that free speech  is being eroded in this area with respect to certain religions. I can send you a link to his article on the subject, if you wish.

[WishboneDawn]

I'm not militant, but the op was whether or not it was noticeable. I just happen to believe it goes along with other ways society has worked to remove Christianity from the mainstream when they want tolerance to everything else.

As a Christian and if I agree with your take, so what?

 

We are supposed to turn the other cheek, love our neighbor. We're not supposed to be keeping a tally sheet and building resentment our a persecution complex if things things don't balance out exactly.

Christmas isn't diminished by not having nativity scenes on public property or being unable to wear red sweaters to school, it's diminished when we become wrapped up in the injuries we think are being done to us rather then Christ and the central messages of the gospel.

 

Society is changing. Christmas doesn't enjoy the privileged position is one did. No big deal. It doesn't affect my celebration of the holiday one bit.

 

To much angst about the trappings when we Christians should be meditating on the meaning.

[RoughCollie]

Well, I think Easter is the most important Christian holiday.  IMO, the secular part of Christmas is the most important to many, many people.  The secular part is what most of us spend the majority of our time preparing for and doing.  How we spend our time and our money reflects our actual values, IMO. 

 

By and large, though, I think Christmas is both a secular and a religious holiday. Some people celebrate one, some the other, and some both.  For many people, the Christ is already out of Christmas. It's kind of odd to me that anyone would mind a Walmart greeter saying Happy Holidays.  Walmart is not a church, although it's hard to tell that on Sunday mornings, especially during the Christmas season. 

 

If Fox News could make more money not promoting the war on Christmas and other myths, they would do that instead.  Entertain people, get them worked up = get more viewers = make more money.

 

[unsinkable]

We went to a professional children's theatre production of a Little House of the Prairie Christmas. It never once mentioned Jesus or the birth of Jesus. I'm pretty sure the Ingalls were not celebrating a secular Christmas so I can't figure out why there was no mention of Jesus at all.

[milovany]

.

 

Wrong thread ...

[DawnM]

No, I don't see it.

 

If we really want a Christian Christmas we need to change the date, not give each other gifts, stop the "Christmas" tree decorating, get rid of Santa altogether, and not add any former pagan roots to the holiday.

 

Christmas is here to stay......in its current form.  Pagan roots, materialism, and all.

 

So, we embrace it, all of it.  We give gifts to each other, shop, wrap, decorate a tree, have some Santa decorations, and say Merry Christmas OR Happy Holidays to those around us.

 

I tire greatly of Christians on witch hunts.   It wears me out.

 

Celebrate the holiday, enjoy it as you wish, oh, and Merry Christmas, Happy Kwanza, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Holidays.

 

[milovany]

If we really want a Christian Christmas we need to change the date, not give each other gifts, stop the "Christmas" tree decorating, get rid of Santa altogether, and not add any former pagan roots to the holiday.

 

This is not true, at all.  Christmas has holy roots, not pagan roots.  Sorry!  But if you look into the history of the church, you'll see how the bishops and people, through the Holy Spirit, developed the traditions for celebrating the Incarnation of Christ. (The Bible doesn't say all tradition is ungodly, to be sure). The idea that Christianity coopted a pagan holiday is a recent myth.  Our church has roots in the original church and you should see what Christmas is like in our liturgical celebration.  Boy howdy. 

 

I don't mind at all that other faiths/non-faiths celebrate at this time of year.  Great!  Wonderful!  But Christianity didn't coopt a pagan practice and neither is it wrong to celebrate Christmas with fervor, Christmas tree and all.  (We do tend to focus on St. Nicholas more than Santa Claus to be sure! But that's not even Christmas -- it's Dec. 6 and not related to the birth of Christ).

[*lifeoftheparty*]

.

[ktgrok]

We aren't talking about Christians who choose to not celebrate Christmas with a tree. We are talking about society eliminating Christmas in favor of "Holiday." I see that as quite different.

 

So am I the only one that uses Happy Holidays to INCLUDE Christmas, Hanukkah, Eid, Kwanzaa, and the the New Year? I'm not EXCLUDING Christmas, I'm adding on to it. I want to wish you a happy holiday, whatever that is that you celebrate. And even if you are Christian, I'm wishing you a merry Christmas AND New Year. So Holidays, plural. I have no interest or motive to demote Christmas, I'm just including other things. 

 

As for "holiday" trees, I think that is just a commercial attempt to get more people to buy trees, as some non Christians do it. Are we expecting commercialism to be sacred? I'm not. 

 

As for religious symbols in public places, I'm all for it as long as all religions have that opportunity. Feel free to have a nativity scene, as long as you will also allow a menorah, etc. And I don't think city funds should be spent on such things, although Im' fine with local organizations donating them. 

[umsami]

I don't see any war on Christmas.  I see people becoming uncomfortable with the fact that the United States is increasingly multi faith (although it has always been, and Christians are still a vast majority) and that there really might need to be a separation of Church and State…rather than a wink wink nudge nudge one.  It's an uncomfortableness with the "browning" of America… even though Jesus himself would be put on a no-fly list today based on appearance.   It's quite similar to all the anti-Obama stuff which has nothing to do with his actual policies (which are quite conservative) and everything to do with the color of his skin and his name.

[Scarlett]

Christmas itself is a war on "Christmas". I mean, most of the people complaining, aren't exactly having an old fashioned celebration of the birth of Christ. If people don't want it secularized then they should stop participating in the process.

 

Full disclosure- I'm a Christian that doesn't believe in celebrating or participating in Christmas.

As a Christian who also doesn't celebrate Christmas I can tell you that Happy Holidays feels just as much like Christmas as Merry Christmas does. No matter what people call it, it is what it is--Christmas.

[Chris in VA]

Wading in--

 

First, thanks, milovany. 'nuff said.

 

One place I've noticed a shift in how Christmas is handled is in the preschool classroom (which, as a homeschoolers, may not be of interest to you guys). NAEYC is constantly looking towards what they call Anti-Bias Education, in which, in part, all religious traditions are treated as equal and important, with the goal being the support of families and children of all backrounds. Here's a bit about that--Anti-Bias.

 

This looks balanced to me. We are a multicultural society, and I'm ok with that.

 

The problem I have, and I think Stacey and others refered to, is when the pendulum of tolerance and kindness swings too far, as  when multicultural means only non-Western culture, and Christianity is left out of anti-bias.

 

My direct experience with this is also summed up in NAEYC materials (I'm sorry, I do not have the materials in front of me, but trust me, it's in there), some of which state that teachers should not celebrate or even bother to mention Christmas in the classroom, including secular elements, because it's all pervasive in the children's other environments, and so they don't need to spend valuable classroom time on it. Instead, give voice to other traditions, like Hanukkah, Kwanzaa and other celebrations of Light. 

 

It's all an effort to help preschoolers who aren't celebrating Christmas feel included and supported. I do get that, but...isn't it ok just to do it all? 

 

FWIW, I don't see a war on Christmas, really, just an acknowledgment that we are not as homogeneous a country as we were years ago.

I also don't have a problem wishing people Happy Holidays. 

 

ETA: Also FWIW, it isn't an X in XMAS, it's a CHI, a Greek letter used for 1000 years to stand for Christ.  

"The “X†is actually indicating the Greek letter “Chiâ€, which is short for the Greek

, meaning “Christâ€. So “Xmas†and “Christmas†are equivalent in every way except their lettering."http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2011/12/the-x-in-xmas-doesnt-take-the-christ-out-of-christmas/

[mom2scouts]

Hanukkah has been over for weeks!  What are the PC supposed to do this year? :lol:

[DawnM]

I certainly am open to being wrong.

 

But wasn't the date of Christmas not Jesus' birthday at all, but made to coincide with the pagan holiday of winter solstice?   Was there a Christmas tree and gift giving in the early church?

 

Can you please point me to something that says otherwise?  All my google searches are telling me that the early church did not celebrate Christmas.

 

 

This is not true, at all.  Christmas has holy roots, not pagan roots.  Sorry!  But if you look into the history of the church, you'll see how the bishops and people, through the Holy Spirit, developed the traditions for celebrating the Incarnation of Christ. (The Bible doesn't say all tradition is ungodly, to be sure). The idea that Christianity coopted a pagan holiday is a recent myth.  Our church has roots in the original church and you should see what Christmas is like in our liturgical celebration.  Boy howdy. 

 

I don't mind at all that other faiths/non-faiths celebrate at this time of year.  Great!  Wonderful!  But Christianity didn't coopt a pagan practice and neither is it wrong to celebrate Christmas with fervor, Christmas tree and all.  (We do tend to focus on St. Nicholas more than Santa Claus to be sure! But that's not even Christmas -- it's Dec. 6 and not related to the birth of Christ).

 

[Ellie]

But the majority of your examples are attempts to include the other holidays that take place at this time of year.  I still fail to see how including other faiths is somehow a war on your own.

 

"Happy Holidays" does not offend me. :-) Substituting a generic holiday reference in a situation which clearly has a *Christmas* emphasis is quite different. And it doesn't even have to be a religious reference, because many people celebrate Christmas not because of its religious origins. Other celebrations which occur at the same time as Christmas do not use decorated trees, or fat men in red velvet, or even babies in stables. If that mall wants to have a holiday celebration, then it needs to use non-Christmas-specific decorations and music....good luck with that...

[mamajudy]

Every year I seem to detect more and more nasty attitudes coming from Christians concerning this issue. One facebook post depicted a Christmas tree with the caption "This is a Christmas tree, which you see when we celebrate the birth of Christ," followed by a picture of a palm tree with the heading "This is a holiday tree, like you see when on vacation." Then came "Get it? Got it? Good!" I felt that it was downright obnoxious and asked, "But what does a Christmas tree have to do with the birth of Christ?" The person who posted the thing promptly gave me some explanation of the tree symbolizing this and the lights symbolizing that, etc. I'm sorry, but these are man made traditions. They are not biblical. 

 

I believe that Christians are partly at fault for this "secularization of Christmas." For decades, we have rushed, glassy-eyed, through the stores along with everybody else, taken our kids to see Santa Claus, and participated in activities that have no biblical basis, and now we are bent out of shape because it has come back to bite us.

 

If Jesus Christ Himself was despised and rejected of men, what makes us think we should fare any better? Perhaps instead of arguing about extra-biblical (and by that, I mean outside of the Bible) traditions, we should celebrate the birth of our Savior by showing the love of Christ to others, no matter how they treat us.

[milovany]

I certainly am open to being wrong.

 

But wasn't the date of Christmas not Jesus' birthday at all, but made to coincide with the pagan holiday of winter solstice?   Was there a Christmas tree and gift giving in the early church?

 

Can you please point me to something that says otherwise?  All my google searches are telling me that the early church did not celebrate Christmas.

 

Absolutely.  I'm working right now and will be back with you shortly. 

[mamajudy]

...  All my google searches are telling me that the early church did not celebrate Christmas.

 

The Pilgrims, who came to America seeking religious freedom, didn't celebrate Christmas, either.

[Cricket]

I certainly am open to being wrong.

 

But wasn't the date of Christmas not Jesus' birthday at all, but made to coincide with the pagan holiday of winter solstice? Was there a Christmas tree and gift giving in the early church?

 

Can you please point me to something that says otherwise? All my google searches are telling me that the early church did not celebrate Christmas.

It is my understanding that in liturgical churches there is a calendar of events/celebrations. Every Sunday is something. I believe the date for Christmas was figured by counting backwards from the crucifixion and resurrection because we know when that occurred in relation to Passover. The flow of celebrations/feasts, etc. is so that during an entire year, the highlights of Christ's life are remembered. Christmas being near the time of other pagan holidays was coincidental and unavoidable as things would certainly overlap.

[Joanne]

I assure you it does, but I don't know how I would convince you of that.

 

 

IME, it is very difficult to be fully aware of the Christian overculture unless you are *not* a part of the majority culture.

 

I didn't realize, for example, how overtly Christian AA meetings are until I was not a Christian anymore. (And I was never a conservative one. Please also note that I said AA *meetings* and not "program" because I believe the Traditions - which serve as guiding rules - are in the spirit of inclusivness.)

[Onceuponatime]

The pilgrims, who came to America seeking religious freedom, didn't celebrate Christmas, either.

The Puritans banned Christmas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_in_Puritan_New_England

[LucyStoner]

The origins of Yule, including oh so many things that were folded into Christmas including the entire word "Yule" in many songs and such about Christmas, predates the arrival of Christianity in Europe. It is not a myth that many pagan and non- Christian elements were mixed in with Christianity.

[milovany]

The pilgrims, who came to America seeking religious freedom, didn't celebrate Christmas, either.

 

Which kinda means nothing when it comes to my comment.  We need to go way back before the Puritans and Pilgrims -- they're all part of the "recent myth" phenomena I spoke of.  ;)

[redsquirrel]

The "war on Christmas' is about making money. It gets a certain segment of the population to hang out in the echo chamber and that means selling more ad time. Of course, modern christmas is all about money as well. I see very little, if any, element of religion in modern Christmas. How is a decorated pine tree a Christian religious symbol? What about Santa Claus in a red suit and pulled by reindeer? I bet someone here can retrofit it all, and I will find that amusing.

 

And, as someone who has had family in uniform, I find it disrespectful to call something so superficial a "war". No one is going to die, no one is getting hurt, no one is making any sacrifice. You know what is like war? War.

[albeto.]

Weelll, Sam Harris, who is an equal opportunity mocker of religions, seems to agree with the sentiment that free speech  is being eroded in this area with respect to certain religions. I can send you a link to his article on the subject, if you wish.

 

To be fair, Sm Harris doesn't mock, he criticizes. And yes, he is very much an equal opportunity criticizer of all religions. Now Tim Minchin, he mocks. He's good at it, too. Seth McFarlane, he's another equal opportunity mocker. There's lots of them out there, but Sam Harris isn't one. He's not into mockery or ridicule, but intellectual challenges. I would be interested in a link, thanks. Is it a matter of legal erosion? Like is there legal president that protects some religions through freedom of speech but not others?

[Joanne]

This is not true, at all.  Christmas has holy roots, not pagan roots. 

 

 

I think this is an important distinction. CHRISTMAS is inherently Christ-centered. The timing, the accoutraments, and the rituals were intentionally co-opted to spread the "Good News" in a way designed to woo non Christians.

 

That means that the celebrations have elements which are historically rooted in other spiritual anchors.

[elegantlion]

It's not a war, but I think there is a whole cultural shift happening around Christmas. I'm in my 40s. I remember when Christmas wasn't a rush for sales, but presents still abounded. We discussed the cultural significance of what we were doing, birth of Jesus, origin of the tree, how Santa was portrayed around the world. 

 

Personally, I'm sick of the holiday rush. I put up no decor this year, ds is apathetic to the whole thing, my parents aren't even decorating. 

 

It's like a big dog shaking after a bath, it's all kind of messy right now, yet I believe it will smell better and look prettier after it all dries up. I think there is redefining of what the holidays mean. It's doesn't mean the Christian Christmas is less or under attack. It may be that those of us not religious, or not as religious as we used to be, or those of us that want to recognize the diversity in ALL the holidays of the seasons are stepping back. What is the cultural aspect? The Coke Santa? What is religious? What religion? 

 

Ideally, I'd like to see "Christmas" moved to a more traditional date for the birth of Jesus (whatever that is). Make it a more reverent celebration, get rid of the mass consumerism and allow it to be a holy day for those that choose to celebrate. Then let the cultural winter break stand as something separate. People will still buy gifts, like Americans need a reason to buy stuff. 

 

[LucyStoner]

It is my understanding that in liturgical churches there is a calendar of events/celebrations. Every Sunday is something. I believe the date for Christmas was figured by counting backwards from the crucifixion and resurrection because we know when that occurred in relation to Passover. The flow of celebrations/feasts, etc. is so that during an entire year, the highlights of Christ's life are remembered. Christmas being near the time of other pagan holidays was coincidental and unavoidable as things would certainly overlap.

But modern Christians don't use the Hebrew calendar and the Hebrew calendar as it stands is not the same as it was then.

 

Even if the placement of Christmas near solstice were entirely coincidental, the incorporation of Yule is not and the etymology shows us a distinctly non-Chrsitian element in what we call Christmas. Odin and variations are not Christian in their roots.

[Joanne]

You do have a point with the pledge, but it's still an example of society's need to remove God. We could rationalize removal of God's name from a lot of things that wouldn't necessarily have meaning to us as Christians, but it's just the chipping away little by little that I believe desensitizes people.

 

 

For those who don't believe in the pledge or the "under God" inclusion this is not accurate. It might be more accurate to understand it as a need to make God *private* and not state-sanctioned.

 

Similar to why the Pilgrims came here. ;)

[albeto.]

As a Christian and if I agree with your take, so what?

 

We are supposed to turn the other cheek, love our neighbor. We're not supposed to be keeping a tally sheet and building resentment our a persecution complex if things things don't balance out exactly.

 

If I understand Stacey's argument correctly, the "so what" comes after a society has eliminated God from their midst. She says "we need God," and if a "war" (this slow battle of attention, I guess) eventually wins in favor of non-christians, the effect that would have on society would be disastrous. 2 Chronicles 7:14 suggests a nation's well-being is directly correlated with their humble servitude toward God. ("if my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land"). There are others examples, and much of the Old Testament stories would confirm this correlation (many in the tales of Moses alone). For someone who doesn't think this correlation is accurate, I can see why turning the other cheek would be appealing. But for someone who fears the safety and well-being of their children, and children's children, this would be a big deal indeed, wouldn't it?

[Scarlett]

It is my understanding that in liturgical churches there is a calendar of events/celebrations. Every Sunday is something. I believe the date for Christmas was figured by counting backwards from the crucifixion and resurrection because we know when that occurred in relation to Passover. The flow of celebrations/feasts, etc. is so that during an entire year, the highlights of Christ's life are remembered. Christmas being near the time of other pagan holidays was coincidental and unavoidable as things would certainly overlap.

The choice of December 25 as the day to celebrate Christs birth was not coincidental. It also is almost positively not his birth day or birth month even.

[mamajudy]

Which kinda means nothing when it comes to my comment.  We need to go way back before the Puritans and Pilgrims -- they're all part of the "recent myth" phenomena I spoke of.  ;)

 

I understand it means nothing when it comes to your comment, Milovany, I just thought I'd throw it out there, since many people lament the fact that America has lost its Christian heritage. The Puritans and Pilgrims were very devout Christians, and even they did not celebrate Christmas.

[milovany]

It is my understanding that in liturgical churches there is a calendar of events/celebrations. Every Sunday is something. I believe the date for Christmas was figured by counting backwards from the crucifixion and resurrection because we know when that occurred in relation to Passover. The flow of celebrations/feasts, etc. is so that during an entire year, the highlights of Christ's life are remembered. Christmas being near the time of other pagan holidays was coincidental and unavoidable as things would certainly overlap.

 

This is not the answer I would give (in total). Still working ... back soon ...

[milovany]

I understand it means nothing when it comes to your comment, Milovany, I just thought I'd throw it out there, since many people lament the fact that America has lost its Christian heritage. The Puritans and Pilgrims were very devout Christians, and even they did not celebrate Christmas.

 

If I sounded blunt, please forgive -- I'm working and am just jumping in and out here. 

[Scarlett]

Wading in--

 

First, thanks, milovany. 'nuff said.

 

One place I've noticed a shift in how Christmas is handled is in the preschool classroom (which, as a homeschoolers, may not be of interest to you guys). NAEYC is constantly looking towards what they call Anti-Bias Education, in which, in part, all religious traditions are treated as equal and important, with the goal being the support of families and children of all backrounds. Here's a bit about that--Anti-Bias.

 

This looks balanced to me. We are a multicultural society, and I'm ok with that.

 

The problem I have, and I think Stacey and others refered to, is when the pendulum of tolerance and kindness swings too far, as when multicultural means only non-Western culture, and Christianity is left out of anti-bias.

 

My direct experience with this is also summed up in NAEYC materials (I'm sorry, I do not have the materials in front of me, but trust me, it's in there), some of which state that teachers should not celebrate or even bother to mention Christmas in the classroom, including secular elements, because it's all pervasive in the children's other environments, and so they don't need to spend valuable classroom time on it. Instead, give voice to other traditions, like Hanukkah, Kwanzaa and other celebrations of Light.

 

It's all an effort to help preschoolers who aren't celebrating Christmas feel included and supported. I do get that, but...isn't it ok just to do it all?

 

FWIW, I don't see a war on Christmas, really, just an acknowledgment that we are not as homogeneous a country as we were years ago.

I also don't have a problem wishing people Happy Holidays.

 

ETA: Also FWIW, it isn't an X in XMAS, it's a CHI, a Greek letter used for 1000 years to stand for Christ.

"The “X†is actually indicating the Greek letter “Chiâ€, which is short for the Greek

, meaning “Christâ€. So “Xmas†and “Christmas†are equivalent in every way except their lettering."http://www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2011/12/the-x-in-xmas-doesnt-take-the-christ-out-of-christmas/

When you include religion in secular education seems there will be someone who won't want to be involved in any or all of those religious observances. I have never celebrated Christmas and ideally if it had been left out of my schooling altogether my life would have been easier. That wasn't the way life was back then though, so I took the steps I needed to avoid joining in Christmas celebrations. I didn't concern myself with preventing others from doing what they wanted. It would not have made it one bit easier on me to include all religious holidays.

[unsinkable]

The choice of December 25 as the day to celebrate Christs birth was not coincidental. It also is almost positively not his birth day or birth month even.

Well, there's a 1/365 chance that it might be, :lol:

 

I learned that is was around 200 to 300 years or so after Christ's death and resurrection that the Church tried to determine His birth. So, it's been about 1700 years since they decided on December 25th. That's enough time, IMO, that it doesn't matter to me that another god had/has a celebration on the same day.

[KarenNC]

Sorry, late to the discussion:

Origin of the date and it's celebration in the early Church from the Catholic Encyclopedia (and much of this dates from prior to the split between Roman Catholic and Orthodox Catholic) http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03724b.htm  So "traditional" entirely depends on which point in time you pick as a reference point. If you choose certain periods of the 17th century, either in England or certain of the colonies, the great majority of the things people are complaining about not having in government buildings were forbidden because they were considered non-Christian.

 

Wrapping paper---that one surprised me, so I went out to Walmart.com---I see Christmas trees, Peace on Earth, the text of Matthew 1:21, the words Christmas Cheer--don't know whether they have all of those in the store. But truly, concern and aggravation at the idea that one might need to go to a Christian store (of which there are plenty, btw,--just saying) to get a better *variety* of religiously themed wrapping paper because you don't find quite the nuance you want just points out Christian privilege. Your underlying assumption is that all major retailers will indeed carry not only one item that mentions your religion's holiday as a token, but a wide variety of them to suit various expressions of that religion. Really, try that with *any* other religion in the US. BTW, if you want good selection for a specific season from a craft store, you have to go months in advance. They've had Christmas themed stuff on clearance for a while around here.

 

War on Christmas---so I went to Fox News. Here is their page with a handy map showing the locations of the 26 incidents they can find to report on that they are calling evidence of the "War on Christmas." (pause to realize 26--in the whole country---from people actively looking for it) http://nation.foxnews.com/2013/12/12/war-christmas

Of those:

1) The mayor of Redmond not taking down signs in front of public property saying "It's OK to say 'Merry Christmas'" and a Bible verse placed without permission

2) an Oregon girl told she can't sell mistletoe on city park property to raise funds for medical care because she doesn't have the proper permit, but can sell them adjacent or simply ask for donations

3) The Gap telling customers "Merry Christmas"

4) a subdivision in CA being told to take down the light strings they put across the roadway because it was against code (but not to take down the huge number of lights on individual houses)

5) a town limiting holiday displays in the town square to only 14 days

6) a town telling merchants that they have to use an approved contractor and have proper insurance to hang lights in the city trees in front of their stores

7) a merchant asking a Salvation Army bellringer he allowed in front of his store to use a somewhat smaller bell

8) the governor of Rhode Island switched from the tradition of several governors of RI saying "holiday tree" to "Christmas tree"

9) and, my personal favorite, NY police asked bars in a certain area not to serve drinks to participants in SantaCon because of the previous drunk and disorderly behavior in neighborhoods by participants in previous years. Evidently it is a hallowed religious practice for thousands gather on Dec. 14 to celebrate the birth of Jesus by putting on a Santa costume, getting drunk, and then publicly vomit and urinate throughout neighborhood streets. http://news.yahoo.com/york-survived-another-santacon-132402520.html

 

(I've heard that some of the others---a school removing Christmas cards, or banning red and green---have been debunked, but haven't searched on that yet).

[Cricket]

The choice of December 25 as the day to celebrate Christs birth was not coincidental. It also is almost positively not his birth day or birth month even.

No, it wasn't his actual birthday, but if you look at a liturgical calendar it makes sense to place his birth at the end of December in relation to the rest of the calendar. I don't think early church fathers sat around thinking of ways to take over pagan holidays. Pagan symbols might play a part in some of the symbols used at Christmas (trees, mistletoe, Yule logs, etc.) but I think those were slower additions to an established feast day rather than original parts of the first Christmases. As people converted, I'm sure they kept many traditions from their life before.