An Etiquette question... When your kids make a mess

[mom2bee]

I would select maybe 7 toys/play things to leave out and put the rest of the things away before the children arrived. I would also set an alarm clock to go off 10 minutes before they usually leave and then go and supervise the clean up of the room to be sure that things don't just get put in bins/drawers but that things get put in the correct bins/drawers.

 

Maybe have the older kids help straighten up the first few times so that the youngers can learn where everything goes.

[SKL]

For several years I just assumed that if I had my kids with me outside the house, I would be chasing them and their mishaps the entire time.  No wonder I was so tired.  But once they got old enough to play in a separate room with their peers, I would expect to take a breather, i.e sit down and have an adult conversation, still always keeping one ear open and legs ready to spring into action if need be.  ;)  I would not expect my host to provide child care for my kids; I would assume she would be busy enough.

[2squared]

I would select maybe 7 toys/play things to leave out and put the rest of the things away before the children arrived.

 

This isn't going to go well....7 toys for 7 kids under the age of 7yo? 

 

I can hear the crying and fighting already. 

[linders]

When I go over "for the kids to play" cleaning up after (as well as supervision during) is part of the agenda.

 

When I am invited to someone's home for a ministry, and my children are also invited, I assume that the hosts know they are hosting young children and that "hospitality" to the children (cleaning up after them) is part of what was offered to the children as invited guests. Much like the way that children do not clean up a Church nursery or Sunday School classroom after their session is over. I just assume that someone who is volunteering to tend the nursery includes cleanup in their idea of volunteering, and likewise that a family who would host 16 children (plus various adults) has considered the magnitude of "hospitality" to that many immature human beings.

 

Sometimes I give it a shot, but really only at daytime events. Often those things are just so late in the evening (after 7:00) that we are lucky I'm willing to over-tire my kids for the sake of my Bible study needs at all, and I just need to take them home. Usually, I just call my child to get their shoes on. Chances are I would never even see the room they were playing in, nor would I know what condition it was in before.

 

If you want to switch which mode I'm in, all you have to do is mention it. "Well, that's it for the study. Parents of littles, please visit my dd's room to help your littles tidy up before she goes to bed. Parents of older kids, it's time to get them going on clean up too. See you all next week!"

 

My DC would love your Church rules! At the churches we've attended, DC over the age of 2 are required to help clean up a few minutes before the end of nursery/Sunday School or any other event that they attend. Volunteers give enough as it is. Older DC even come in to help clean up after adult events (e.g., the senior breakfast).

 

And I would never presume that a "host" for an event like Bible study takes on the hosting expecting a major solo cleanup afterwards - in all likelihood, the host had to clean up before hand to prepare for the guests, and I would honor that gracious effort. If my DC would be too tired to help clean up, then I would forego my personal need for a group Bible study.

[bolt.]

I'm sure my kids do clean up with their volunteers, as their activities wrap up (during the activity). I only meant that parents don't make the kids stay after the activity, doing some kind of a parent initiated or child-spontaneous cleaning effort. When its over, it's just done.

[Soror]

I would expect to help the host w/ clean-up as well. Even at formal events I expect all of us to clean-up after ourselves. I wouldn't expect to do deep-cleaning and I wouldn't expect that from my kids or others but general pick up after yourself is to me expected. When I've done classes w/ young ones I do have them help clean up then as well. Of course they do not do everything and I still have to finish things up but it is good practice for life. Attending events w/ little kids is often an exhausting task. I know how generous it is to offer to host, no way would I stick it to the hostess to then do all the clean-up as well.

[freesia]

Does no one (other than me) just think it's an odd quirk of our culture that hospitality works this way:

 

Grown adults are guests. They should relax and not worry about simple tasks like washing dishes they used, even though that's like a 30 second job for an adult.

 

Small children are guests too. However, they should be expected to do 5 or 10 minutes of work that is genuinely hard for them to erase the evidence that they were present in any space that they don't own. Even though the host adult could do that in the same 10 or 20 minutes that the dishes takes (if there aren't quite so many little bits available).

 

It's just so illogical that I have trouble remembering it. I suppose. I just don't get the difference in status between what an individual child can expect from their Church family, and what an individual adult can expect. Adults get much better care, even though they need it far less -- unless the adult is a parent.

 

I hated being a mom of toddlers in Church environments. I constantly felt like we were welcome to enjoy events as long as my small children left no traces of themselves. If there was a mess, it was *my* mess, not the mess of one of the people they invited to their event and pretended to want to minister to (and they knew how old they were when they invited my kids). But instead it's a bait-and-switch, because they really just wanted the toddler-guests to trouble no-one, or at least to only trouble the woman who ministers to them all day every day, who came to your "ministry" because she was led to believe she could get some refreshment or inspiration out of it -- not that it was going to be about 8 times harder work than just staying home.

 

OK, I just realized I maybe need to process those events. I've got some big feelings leftover from a few years ago.

I think that regular playdates, Bible Studies, etc are in a different realm of hospitality. Friends who come regularly to my home do help with dishes, chair movement, etc. When my family goes to dinner at someone else's house I always help clear the table. Most folks offer to help me with clean up. Usually I say no to the dishes, but I don't stop them from helping clear the dishes.

 

I am sorry that you feel hurt from past experiences. I really don't know the details. Some children do create far more messes than others. If you know you have a child who comes and dumps toy bins (as friends of my sons did regularly), I really think you need to realize that expecting someone else to clean that up every week is inconsiderate. A little straightening up after an event is reasonable to expect a child or adult host to do, cleaning up a disaster such as she describes is not. An adult equivalent of the mess the OP is talking about is expecting her to clean up the kitchen once you have taken all the food out of the cupboard or dumped the dirt out of her plants. Once, sure, weekly,no. Surely you want to give back to those who minister to you.

[AdventureMoms]

Usually my kids clean up, yes. But they are 5, 2, & 2, and sometimes if they are all melting down at once (a virtual guarantee after 7pm) we are way more hindrance than help, so I get them all out as fast as possible. If I had 7 under 7 shut in one room in my house, and I left out puzzles, games and Lego, I'd expect disaster and then some. Half an hour is really not bad in that case. Also kids that age may have a hard time knowing HOW to pick up a disaster on that level. I heavily restrict the number of toys my kids own so they can pick up without being totally overwhelmed.

[Ellie]

I think that regular playdates, Bible Studies, etc are in a different realm of hospitality.

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

 

Exactly what I was just thinking.

 

When I invite people to my home for a meal for the first time, they are guests. I don't expect them to lift a finger, not to help clear the table, not to get themselves a drink, not to nothin'. The third time they come over, they are family, and they can help clear the table and load the dishwasher and get themselves a drink and the whole thing.

 

A regular event, especially a weekly one that involved a boatload of children in someone's home, would be one where parents would be responsible for their children, although I have to say that *I* would not want to attend a weekly, late-evening event where the boatload of children would be unsupervised in other rooms. Children milling around, interacting with parents and each other, would be fine (although a regular late-evening activity would still be a problem, because my children were usually in bed by 8 p.m. when they were under 9)

 

ETA: I reread the OP and see that it is monthly, not weekly, but it would still fall under the category of a regular event, although personally, because it is monthly and not weekly, I wouldn't expect much of an in-depth Bible study to be going on and more of just informal fellowship, KWIM?

[MarinesWife]

Can the younger kids play in the game room with the older kids monitoring?  Maybe put just a few toys in there, or ask the kids to bring their own toys to share for that time, then they take home the toys!

[Kari C in SC]

I have been in a similar situation with my homeschool friends. My house is the gathering place. For the first several years, I had a very good friend that would stay behind and help clean up with her teens. She started working and stopped coming as often. I could so see the difference without her help. So much that I have had to lock my laundry room door because I have 2 large toy closets in there. The kids would go and take EVERY toy out and then leave. I also cleaned out a lot of toys in my son's room because it would look like a tornado hit. I felt really bad initially because I honestly love for kids to play with the toys we have, but this is not playing. This is just dumping stuff everywhere. I live my friends and I love their kids. I tried nicely saying something and I gotta say it wasn't met with the best reception. It was taken personally by one and another is always freaking out when she is here. I wasn't looking for that, but it is what it is.

[Loowit]

My children's rooms are off limits when we have others over.  It is where we keep the toys that are not for playing.  We put out a wide selection of toys in our family room for them to play with.  I do expect that they clean up or at least attempt to before they leave.  Usually I will say something like "it is time to start cleaning up now".  I expect my kids to clean up at other peoples houses.  It is in my mind common courtesy when making a big mess, especially if it is a regular activity.  When we were part of a home church it was expected that kids do cleanup.

 

I used to work in church nurseries a lot as a teen and young adult.  We always had the kids clean up after themselves.  I would start them cleaning up at about 10 minutes before the service was supposed to be over and then play games that didn't involved toys until parents came to pick them up.

[J-rap]

I would have helped and encouraged my kids to clean up. In your situation, could you have one of your older children have the job of going in the last 15 minutes or so and being in charge of organizing the clean-up? Or could you possibly have it in a different room altogether, limiting the toys that are available for play?

[Mom0012]

For me, it has depended on whether one person is doing all or most of the hosting, as you are, or if we are taking equal turns hosting.  If one person is doing most of the hosting, then it is downright rude of the parents to not make sure that their children help and clean up the mess that has been made.  If people are taking equal turns hosting, ideally everyone would still help clean because it teaches the children good manners, but I've been in groups where each mom just took care of it when it was her turn to have the group over.  I didn't mind that because a lot of the time we'd be chatting until the last minute and then need to run and it seemed okay for the host to clean up since we were all taking turns.

 

I was in one group that was discontinued because it was held primarily at my house and one other mom's house and there were 4 - 6 other families that participated, but never helped to clean up.  The kids would completely trash our homes and the other mom and I would be left with the mess every week.  I really don't know what on earth they were thinking.  Frankly, I would have continued with the group anyway, because it was really important to me, but the other mom had just had it, and I can't really blame her.

 

 

[lea_lpz]

I have had this situation. Some friends I have had always destroy our house and it makes it hard because I feel like I spend too much time cleaning after. I notice some parents don't teach their young children to clean after themselves. To each their own, but my house, my rules.

 

I would let the children know up front your house rules and that you expect them to follow them. So I would say, we play with one toy at a time and when we are done put it back. I would also let them know that you will be coming in 10 minutes before it's time to go, and that everyone will clean up the room together.

 

I would then tell the parents 10 minutes before they should leave that you are going to excuse yourself to let the children know it's time to clean up before they leave.

 

This should give those who have kids who need prompting a hint.

 

By the way, I always make sure my kids pick up after themselves and find it rude to do otherwise.

 

If that doesn't work then perhaps fewer and fewer toys will be available.

 

Also, perhaps some of the older children could take turns keeping an eye on the littles. With them not having anyone to keep them in line, a room full of small kids is bound to get rowdy and make messes.

[bolt.]

So nobody really understands that only parents of young children end up at ministry events where they are expected to "pitch in" approximately 3 times as much work as the average person -- and that seems reasonable? Because parents of young children aren't having a hard enough time in regular life, that it makes sense to make even being ministered to by the Church 3 times as much clean-up work (or more) than it used to be? What is that message? "Welcome to the hardest years of your life so far. Please allow us to remind you that no one around here is going to help you or your kids have a good time."???

 

I'm not suggesting leaving a mess for a host. I'm suggesting that the attitude that, "They are yours, not ours, so if they need something (like help cleaning up) you provide it. It has nothing to do with us." -- just isn't very Churchy towards the kids themselves. If people want to be Churchy towards kids, they should make a reasonable plan to do so (not just abandoning the host, and not spoiling the kids like royalty -- just being kid friendly, not expecting only parents to focus on what their kids are doing, feeling, experiencing and -- yes -- contributing).

[bolt.]

So nobody really understands that only parents of young children end up at ministry events where they are expected to "pitch in" approximately 3 times as much work as the average person -- and that seems reasonable? Because parents of young children aren't having a hard enough time in regular life, that it makes sense to make even being ministered to by the Church 3 times as much clean-up work (or more) than it used to be? What is that message? "Welcome to the hardest years of your life so far. Please allow us to remind you that no one around here is going to help you or your kids have a good time."???

 

I'm not suggesting leaving a mess for a host. I'm suggesting that the attitude that, "They are yours, not ours, so if they need something (like help cleaning up) you provide it. It has nothing to do with us." -- just isn't very Churchy towards the kids themselves. If people want to be Churchy towards kids, they should make a reasonable plan to do so (not just abandoning the host, and not spoiling the kids like royalty -- just being kid friendly, not expecting only parents to focus on what their kids are doing, feeling, experiencing and -- yes -- contributing).

[Soror]

I think people here do very well understand that life w/ toddlers and young kids is hard. I don't think it is reasonable to expect others to pick-up after my kids though. When you have kids that is kind of what you sign up for, in the situation in the op they are all parents so it seems most equitable that everyone help. I just don't see it as teaching the kids anything positive that they are allowed to entirely destroy a room, like in the op. Putting away some of the bigger mess making toys before they come and having everyone pitch in for 10 min. at the end is hardly a huge imposition for anyone. If someone cannot bother to help out that much then I think it probably better that they stay home. I know we have avoided certain places and events if I felt it would be too much trouble to watch the kids. I actually think the situation in the OP sounds like a nice low-key evening and I think she is very gracious for hosting. Just a little bit of work from everyone could make it much better for her as the host and considering it is a recurrent event among friends that should be not too much ask.

[Penelope]

The OP has a young child, too, or she presumably wouldn't have the toys in the first place. :)

 

She is kindly offering her home for a few hours. It is only common courtesy when visiting somewhere to help clean up after ourselves, and if we are parents, that includes our children. I don't consider having my kids each put a few toys away a great hardship, though. That is what we are talking about, right? Each parent having their child help clean up. My kids at two and three can help put toys away. I would probably not even leave kids that small in a room unsupervised in a room out of my own home, anyway, but even if I did, they could put toys away. I don't think the OP expects anyone to scrub or vacuum the floors, just to do a pick-up. Just like we would pick up after ourselves, putting a glass in the sink or placing paper cups and napkins in the garbage can

[SKL]

Yes, as a matter of fact, the season of our lives when we have small children *is* hard.  I don't think it's anyone else's responsibility to fix that.  As a pp mentioned, I believe the OP (a full-time working mom IIRC) has at least 3 children of her own, on top of the work of hosting and the energy required for socializing while all that is going on.  Who's helping her with her kids?  Nobody.  If everyone had to be responsible for 16 kids with no help every time she hosted a Bible study, there would not be very many Bible studies.

 

If taking your kids to a Bible study is hard, hire a sitter or stay home until you can deal with it.  I haven't had a social life for years.  It goes with the territory IMO.  What I do is attend grown-up Sunday School classes while my kids attend kid classes.  That one-hour time slot has been the only "me time" I've had in 6 years.  It's lovely.  ;)

[Word Nerd]

So nobody really understands that only parents of young children end up at ministry events where they are expected to "pitch in" approximately 3 times as much work as the average person -- and that seems reasonable? Because parents of young children aren't having a hard enough time in regular life, that it makes sense to make even being ministered to by the Church 3 times as much clean-up work (or more) than it used to be? What is that message? "Welcome to the hardest years of your life so far. Please allow us to remind you that no one around here is going to help you or your kids have a good time."???

 

I'm not suggesting leaving a mess for a host. I'm suggesting that the attitude that, "They are yours, not ours, so if they need something (like help cleaning up) you provide it. It has nothing to do with us." -- just isn't very Churchy towards the kids themselves. If people want to be Churchy towards kids, they should make a reasonable plan to do so (not just abandoning the host, and not spoiling the kids like royalty -- just being kid friendly, not expecting only parents to focus on what their kids are doing, feeling, experiencing and -- yes -- contributing).

 

Who are you talking about? No one in this thread, including the OP, has suggested or advocated an attitude remotely like what you're accusing people of having.

[SKL]

At least she provided something for the kids to do the whole time.  All she is asking for is a little help with the fallout.

[Starr]

So nobody really understands that only parents of young children end up at ministry events where they are expected to "pitch in" approximately 3 times as much work as the average person -- and that seems reasonable? Because parents of young children aren't having a hard enough time in regular life, that it makes sense to make even being ministered to by the Church 3 times as much clean-up work (or more) than it used to be? What is that message? "Welcome to the hardest years of your life so far. Please allow us to remind you that no one around here is going to help you or your kids have a good time."???

 

I'm not suggesting leaving a mess for a host. I'm suggesting that the attitude that, "They are yours, not ours, so if they need something (like help cleaning up) you provide it. It has nothing to do with us." -- just isn't very Churchy towards the kids themselves. If people want to be Churchy towards kids, they should make a reasonable plan to do so (not just abandoning the host, and not spoiling the kids like royalty -- just being kid friendly, not expecting only parents to focus on what their kids are doing, feeling, experiencing and -- yes -- contributing).

 

Unfortunately for most this isn't really the hardest time of your life.   :grouphug:

[Mom0012]

So nobody really understands that only parents of young children end up at ministry events where they are expected to "pitch in" approximately 3 times as much work as the average person -- and that seems reasonable? Because parents of young children aren't having a hard enough time in regular life, that it makes sense to make even being ministered to by the Church 3 times as much clean-up work (or more) than it used to be? What is that message? "Welcome to the hardest years of your life so far. Please allow us to remind you that no one around here is going to help you or your kids have a good time."???

 

I'm not suggesting leaving a mess for a host. I'm suggesting that the attitude that, "They are yours, not ours, so if they need something (like help cleaning up) you provide it. It has nothing to do with us." -- just isn't very Churchy towards the kids themselves. If people want to be Churchy towards kids, they should make a reasonable plan to do so (not just abandoning the host, and not spoiling the kids like royalty -- just being kid friendly, not expecting only parents to focus on what their kids are doing, feeling, experiencing and -- yes -- contributing).

I'm trying to understand where you're coming from, but I don't get it. If someone is nice enough to be the person to host the monthly bible study in their home every month, it only seems like it would be common courtesy to help with the cleanup at the end. The study is the ministry. I don't think it opens that person up to having to also have their house trashed every time. And, really, if everyone pitches in, it doesn't take very long at all vs. one mom trying to clean up the mess of many children by herself.

[Alice]

It may be cultural or different expectation than just bad manners. We host a small group that meets every other week after church. It rotates between three families and is at our house roughly every 4-6 weeks. There are a lot of kids of all ages. We’ve known these families a long time, since before we all had kids and are pretty comfortable with loose supervision. :) Routinely, the kids make an enormous mess. When it’s at our house we expect it and clean up after. Sometimes people stay and help, sometimes they don’t. When it’s at other people’s houses my kids contribute to the mess. I usually make my kids help cleaning up a bit but not necessarily to the point it was before we came. 

 

It’s just the way our group has evolved and we’re all ok with it. Maybe some of the people in your group have been in similar situations. Maybe they would be fine if you came over and trashed their house. :) Really. 

 

I’d be fine though if someone made it clear what the expectations were at their house and they expected things to stay cleaner.  I also think it’s probably unrealistic to expect a bunch of kids of that age from different families to play alone in a room without making a huge mess. Sounds like they need more supervision or some kind of different set-up for them. 

[lexi]

In my experience, young children that are in a group with other children often act much differently than they do at home. If these under 7's are not supervised, I would expect total disaster.

 

I would simply ask the adults for help each time to pick up the toys. They won't put the toys away the same way you would, but it would be an option.

This

My kids are all 7 and under and they need constant reminders about picking up. When friends come over our house is wrecked. Thankfully those other moms help direct some cleaning up time before they leave.

When we visit someone's house I help my kids puck up before we leave. They are always happy to help but they need some direction.

 

I would approach the parents and ask if everyone can help pick up. And I would also put away the things with tons of pieces and only leave out toys with fewer pieces. But with kids of that age, they need lots of promptings and reminders. Of course, if its not a rule at their house to pick up, then they will need help and direction.

[Incognito]

So nobody really understands that only parents of young children end up at ministry events where they are expected to "pitch in" approximately 3 times as much work as the average person -- and that seems reasonable? Because parents of young children aren't having a hard enough time in regular life, that it makes sense to make even being ministered to by the Church 3 times as much clean-up work (or more) than it used to be? What is that message? "Welcome to the hardest years of your life so far. Please allow us to remind you that no one around here is going to help you or your kids have a good time."???

 

I'm not suggesting leaving a mess for a host. I'm suggesting that the attitude that, "They are yours, not ours, so if they need something (like help cleaning up) you provide it. It has nothing to do with us." -- just isn't very Churchy towards the kids themselves. If people want to be Churchy towards kids, they should make a reasonable plan to do so (not just abandoning the host, and not spoiling the kids like royalty -- just being kid friendly, not expecting only parents to focus on what their kids are doing, feeling, experiencing and -- yes -- contributing).

I think people were just approaching the idea of tidying up when you leave - it is normal to help with that when you have small children, no matter the location.  We do it at friends' houses, church, wherever we make a mess.

 

I agree that having small kids makes some things stressful (and it can be hard to be ministered to).  It sounds like the OP really is ministering to the whole family, she is just looking for some help/advice/sympathy on how to handle the mess in one room after it is all over.  It sounds like the events themselves go well - the adults have their time, the kids have fun.  The OP is looking for (and has gotten) advice on how to feel better after it is all over. 

 

Personally, I know different families help at different levels when they come over.  I really prefer to clean up myself most times, because I like to put things where I want and do things as I like.  However, I am happy to have children tidy up toys a bit, even when they put them in the wrong places, because I feel it is polite and sets up good habits.  I don't mind when people bring their dishes by the sink for me, but it does actually bother me when they load the dishwasher and scrub dishes in the sink.  I'd rather visit (and do things my way later).

 

YMMV.

[2squared]

I would let the children know up front your house rules and that you expect them to follow them. So I would say, we play with one toy at a time and when we are done put it back.

 

There's no way my kids under 7yo would remember this rule and follow it when left unsupervised with other little people their ages and new toys.  No way. 

 

I encourage them to play with more than one toy at a time (how else could they have fun together???) at home, and we don't pick up until pick-up time.  Left alone with others their age and new toys would be chaos.  Total chaos.  My kids would run from one new toy to the next.  The toys would get passed from kid to kid.  They would join together to play some elaborate pretend thing using most of the new toys at once.  They would pick up when told to pick up, but not until then.  How would they know to stop and pick up before the meeting was over - they can't tell time at those ages.

 

I think what the OP is seeing is exactly what I would expect from a roomful of unsupervised kids those ages.  If the OP wants help picking up, she is going to have to change expectations.  Someone is going to have to supervise the picking up - whether an older child or an adult.  Just popping her head into the room and reminding them to pick up and bopping back out isn't going to work.  How many threads have we seen on this forum about training young children to pick up in their own homes?  Tons, constantly.  If those kids are going to clean up the mess, someone is going to have to oversee and direct the picking up.  Telling them to play with only one toy at a time isn't going to work unless someone is directly supervising to make sure that happens.  I don't know any families in real life who have that rule, so I can't imagine many kids are truly trained to play that way, and how many are trained to play that way in an unsupervised group?

[Ellie]

I would let the children know up front your house rules and that you expect them to follow them. So I would say, we play with one toy at a time and when we are done put it back. I would also let them know that you will be coming in 10 minutes before it's time to go, and that everyone will clean up the room together.

 

I would then tell the parents 10 minutes before they should leave that you are going to excuse yourself to let the children know it's time to clean up before they leave.

 

 

I would not expect 7 unsupervised children under 7 to only take out one toy at a time. I would not expect 7 children under 7 to stop playing and pick up the toys just because they were given a 10-minute warning.

[momto10blessings]

Yes, I do have my kids clean up. Everyone I know has their kids clean up too.

 

BUT- if you don't want these kids to make a mess you really hAve to limit the amount of toys available to them. That's the only way to make sure the mess is manageable.

 

I would also go to them shortly before the netting or whatever is over and get them cleaning up the toys.

[Stellalarella]

For three years I was part of a community group that met weekly in different members' homes.  Eight adults and 16-18 children from babe to teen were included in this group.   It took a while for us all to learn how to help that week's host.  Of course, different families approached the toys-mess is different ways.  One family chose never to host at all during those 3 years.

 

Successfully hosting a big group with children takes practice and LOVE.  

 

Kids need to be given practice on how to pick up.  Before they go off to play, a wise host shows them how the meeting time will end--what will get picked up and how.  Just show them ahead of time.  At the end of the meeting, somebody needs to go in and help the kiddos.  1)  They are going to be tired 2) They will prefer to keep playing.

 

As our group interacted, we also worked to serve one another.  If we knew that one parent was really tired and needed to head home, we didn't ask them to help with dishes or toy clean-up.  

 

I can recall many times that I would have my boys upset about LEGOS and a bazillion other toys being left all over the room.  I could smile, though, knowing that my two little fellas had plenty of capacity to destroy their room with no help from friends.  :)  KWIM??  They were just irritated because they had to clean it up.  I really couldn't change their heart attitude, but I would try to point them in the right direction--the mess happened because friends came over to play.  That's how life with friends is--it takes work to host, but you can't have the fun of friends coming over without having to do the work.  

[Stellalarella]

I can understand some of what bolt was talking about.  I had so many kids in so few years that I didn't go to bible studies. It was just too much work to get all the kids ready to go, even if there was child care.  Then we dropped out of trying to do a small group because every group required that we pay a babysitter, which was unaffordable for us.  

 

When we finally found friends who were willing to meet in a small group and let the kids come, we were so excited.  I felt like the hard work of hosting and the real challenges of dealing with THAT MANY KIDS was worth it if we could actually be with other adults.  

 

Hosting is work, but boy am I grateful that someone was willing to let a family with 6 kids come over (and occasionally leave their home in a mess...)

 

 

[Heather in Neverland]

OK... just to clear things up... they are not completely "unsupervised". My dd's bedroom is adjacent to our living room where all the adults are and her door is open the whole time. So essentially, I can see the carnage taking place as it is happening but none of the parents stepped in to say "Hey, maybe you shouldn't throw legos all over the room." I didn't really want to step on someone else's toes and parent their children for them so I haven't said anything. And the kids don't just destroy the room. As we are talking they are dragging toys into the living room and dumping them out as well. And I did hide all of her puzzles in the closet but they went into the closet and pulled them all out.

 

I obviously need to find better hiding spots for her toys as the closet is not much of a deterrent. 

[lea_lpz]

There's no way my kids under 7yo would remember this rule and follow it when left unsupervised with other little people their ages and new toys. No way.

 

I encourage them to play with more than one toy at a time (how else could they have fun together???) at home, and we don't pick up until pick-up time. Left alone with others their age and new toys would be chaos. Total chaos. My kids would run from one new toy to the next. The toys would get passed from kid to kid. They would join together to play some elaborate pretend thing using most of the new toys at once. They would pick up when told to pick up, but not until then. How would they know to stop and pick up before the meeting was over - they can't tell time at those ages.

 

I think what the OP is seeing is exactly what I would expect from a roomful of unsupervised kids those ages. If the OP wants help picking up, she is going to have to change expectations. Someone is going to have to supervise the picking up - whether an older child or an adult. Just popping her head into the room and reminding them to pick up and bopping back out isn't going to work. How many threads have we seen on this forum about training young children to pick up in their own homes? Tons, constantly. If those kids are going to clean up the mess, someone is going to have to oversee and direct the picking up. Telling them to play with only one toy at a time isn't going to work unless someone is directly supervising to make sure that happens. I don't know any families in real life who have that rule, so I can't imagine many kids are truly trained to play that way, and how many are trained to play that way in an unsupervised group?

I didn't say 1 single toy at a time for all the kids. I meant to have each kid or group of children playing together who are playing with a type of toy (cars, dolls, blocks, books, etc.) put that type of toy away before moving on to another activity. This seems rather self explanatory and a standard preschool / kinder / Sunday school rule so I don't see how a child under seven would not be mentally capable of understanding that.

 

As far as encouraging your children to play and not clean as they go, to each their own :)

 

My 4 year old, 6 year old and 9 year old have been following this rule for years, since they were about 2 years old, so I don't see it as impossible. Among other things even my 4 year old can clean his room, make his bed, get himself dressed, brush his teeth, and feed our cats, all before breakfast, without a reminder. I have explained this same rule to kids when they come over to play. I do check up to make sure they are following that rule. I also give a 10 minute clean up warning when I expect rooms to be tidied up to my kids and also other kids of they have company. I may supervise if it's a group of kids but honestly my kids know that:

1) Mom will not clean the messes they make

2) if they chose not to obey they have chosen the consequences of that action, as in they will have to deal with me perhaps gathering all the toys on the ground and they'll need to earn then back or donate them to needy kids

3) I will tell the children who are invited to play that if they want to be invited to our home again they need to follow our house rules (I don't see that as rude but part of children learning to respect their elders)

 

I did suggest perhaps they should have supervision. I don't know the logistics, such as the ages and number of kids as I am not OP.

 

Personally I would not leave them unsupervised and suggest that a couple of the jr high / high school kids watch the kids and everyone could pitch in to pay them. That would have more to do out of consideration of kids fighting or getting hurt and to make sure they are showing good character then keeping the room tidy, but that's me. But I am not the op in this post.

 

And I suggest she goes in 10 minutes before to supervise the kids doing a group clean up, telling parents that she's doing this before leaving, which to the majority of adults should be a good clue to come in and make sure their kids contributed to clean up.

 

She could just lay it out their of course that parents should expect to stay until toys are picked up and their child will contribute. I have no problem saying that. But it sounded like op would given she has not said something to that effect yet.

 

If people didn't take the hint, I would stop hosting.

 

It is good for parents to model being a good guest and expect their children to be good guests, no? I certainly would not expect my kids to leave a huge mess and not listen to the parents of their friends and be invited back again.

[HeartatHome]

I would expect crazy mess with 7 under 7. Requesting help with clean up for a regular event is reasonable. I would not expect my home looking like it did before the guests arrived of course but just common courtesy with a quick tidy up in the children's area. Even then I would not expect it to be perfect as others will not know where everything goes but at least it's something.

 

Honestly I think your best chance would be to put away half the toys especially those with small pieces. Put them away high up in a closet. That alone will eliminate half the mess.

Could the older children rotate taking turns supervising the littles? If there are 16 children that leaves 9 older helpers. Maybe have them read a couple of books to them or play a game to help minimize noise and distruction.

 

Also agree with pp that 10 minutes before your meeting comes to a close let the children know its time to clean up and since the room is right across from you study the parents will probably hear and take a hint(hopefully)

[Alice]

 

 

I can recall many times that I would have my boys upset about LEGOS and a bazillion other toys being left all over the room.  I could smile, though, knowing that my two little fellas had plenty of capacity to destroy their room with no help from friends.   :)  KWIM??  They were just irritated because they had to clean it up.  I really couldn't change their heart attitude, but I would try to point them in the right direction--the mess happened because friends came over to play.  That's how life with friends is--it takes work to host, but you can't have the fun of friends coming over without having to do the work.  

 

I say this all the time to my kids. With the monthly small group we have we have our kids do most of the clean-up of toys afterward. And as they grumble we ask them if they would have preferred to have no kids over to play. :) 

 

OK... just to clear things up... they are not completely "unsupervised". My dd's bedroom is adjacent to our living room where all the adults are and her door is open the whole time. So essentially, I can see the carnage taking place as it is happening but none of the parents stepped in to say "Hey, maybe you shouldn't throw legos all over the room." I didn't really want to step on someone else's toes and parent their children for them so I haven't said anything. And the kids don't just destroy the room. As we are talking they are dragging toys into the living room and dumping them out as well. And I did hide all of her puzzles in the closet but they went into the closet and pulled them all out.

 

I obviously need to find better hiding spots for her toys as the closet is not much of a deterrent. 

 

It sounds to me like they think you are ok with mess. For whatever reason (they have different standards and would be ok with this at their house or they are just rude people) this is the precedent that has been set since the first meeting.  The kids now expect to come over and that it’s ok to make a huge mess, the parents expect you to be ok with it.

 

Just be honest with them. Say something like “Hey, guys, I really love hosting Bible Study but I have a problem. When the kids play in Susie’s room and make such a huge mess it’s gotten harder and harder to clean it up. I want them to have fun but we have to figure out some kind of solution to make it not so hard on me at the end of the meeting.†Then talk about it and see what solutions you can come up with together. My experience has been that most of the time people will help with a problem if you let them know there is one. 

[SKL]

It sounds like a talk at the beginning of each meeting (to the kids) is necessary.  Tell them they are to play with the toys in x area and keep them in x area.  They are to leave doors and drawers closed as you have lovingly picked out all the toys they will be playing with tonight.  When they are done with a toy, they should put it on x shelf so there is plenty of space left to play.  All this can be said positively.  Remind them periodically until they get into the habit.  (If you say something once and the kid doesn't listen, say it again while "helping" them comply.)  If the kids persist in willfully ignoring your simple rules, put one or two of the older kids in charge of them.  This should help reduce your clean-up of that room to 5 or 10 minutes.  :)

[forty-two]

OK... just to clear things up... they are not completely "unsupervised". My dd's bedroom is adjacent to our living room where all the adults are and her door is open the whole time. So essentially, I can see the carnage taking place as it is happening but none of the parents stepped in to say "Hey, maybe you shouldn't throw legos all over the room." I didn't really want to step on someone else's toes and parent their children for them so I haven't said anything. And the kids don't just destroy the room. As we are talking they are dragging toys into the living room and dumping them out as well. And I did hide all of her puzzles in the closet but they went into the closet and pulled them all out.

 

I obviously need to find better hiding spots for her toys as the closet is not much of a deterrent.

In that situation, as a guest I'd be cueing off the host as to whether I was supposed to intervene. If you could see it but didn't say anything, I'd figure you were fine with it. When we are visiting, I don't enforce any of our rules but the general "don't hurt people, pets, or things" plus whatever expectations the host has. So I'd be closing watching you for a cue - I don't want to be making a huge deal of things that don't matter to anyone else. I really think you need to make your expectations, whatever they are, explicit - to me that's part of being the host, taking the lead in setting expectations and communicating it to your guests.

 

I kinda see bolt's point now, though. The unspoken expectation isn't that the *host* will set up her house for success for *all* her guests, including her young guests, but that despite a separate play area being offered for the children so that they can have fun while allowing the parents to concentrate on the Bible study, the *parents* are apparently expected to keep half an eye on their children the whole time *anyway*, even as they are in the separate play area. I *never* would have expected that I was expected to closely supervise my kids *during* the study, given the set-up of "kids play in other rooms as adults have their study". That expectation - of the *parents* of young children being expected to divide their attention from the study to their kids' deliberately separate activity to ensure nothing unwanted to the host happens, instead of the *host* setting up her house and evening to ensure that nothing unwanted happens - does seem like it is the sort of "hospitality" that bolt talked about - where the event is set up so that it is just piling onto the burden of parents of young kids instead of trying to help alleviate it.

 

 

ETA:  I don't go to a lot of things because they aren't set up for young kids and it would be more work than it was worth for me to make up the difference - as pp have said, it *is* hard being a parent of a young kid.  But when an event is ostensibly set up as being child-friendly - as when an adult-centered Bible study provides separate play areas for the kids (instead of leaving me to make my own child-care arrangements) - then, yeah, it sort of feels unfair when it turns out that it's *still* mostly on me as the parent to bridge the gap between what the event calls for and what my dc can do :(.

[SKL]

I did not get the impression that the OP wants the parents to watch their kids all night, just to pitch in to clean up the mess their kids helped make at the end of the night.  If it took OP half an hour to clean it, even with legos and puzzles, it would only take a few minutes for everyone to pitch in and clean it, minus the legos and puzzles.  If a few minutes of picking up after one's own child is going to make one resentful, that isn't a problem with the host IMO.

[Soror]

I did not get the impression that the OP wants the parents to watch their kids all night, just to pitch in to clean up the mess their kids helped make at the end of the night.  If it took OP half an hour to clean it, even with legos and puzzles, it would only take a few minutes for everyone to pitch in and clean it, minus the legos and puzzles.  If a few minutes of picking up after one's own child is going to make one resentful, that isn't a problem with the host IMO.

Yes, we're talking about 10 minutes people, seriously! The host has tried to cut down on the toys to help w/ the mess but it wasn't working so now she is trying to find more solutions. Goodness, these are friends it shouldn't be only on her to find a solution imo. How was she to know the kids would dig into the closet?

 

To me as well it should be obvious if you are at someone's house w/ your kids you are still responsible for your kids. Why should that be a surprise or a burden? If you want to be entirely free of that obligation you need to find a babysitter. I would be thrilled that the host was so gracious as to offer her home so I could participate in such activities. The host cannot magically make the obligation of parenthood disappear though. It seems obvious as a parent that you will have to provide some oversight in such a situation and coming is accepting that fact.

 

 

I'm just not getting this expectation. Really. I would love to have people provide me w/ all these fun activities and free babysitting and no work BUT I obviously don't expect it. Dh and I have volunteered in various groups and have found that it is often very few people doing all the work and if we want something special offered we need to offer it. (Of course I'm coming from the place that I recently had someone suggest I start planning and organizing an activity for their children- and when I told her she was welcome to plan it herself she told me she was too busy- seriously!)

[forty-two]

OK... just to clear things up... they are not completely "unsupervised". My dd's bedroom is adjacent to our living room where all the adults are and her door is open the whole time. So essentially, I can see the carnage taking place as it is happening but none of the parents stepped in to say "Hey, maybe you shouldn't throw legos all over the room." I didn't really want to step on someone else's toes and parent their children for them so I haven't said anything.

 

 

I did not get the impression that the OP wants the parents to watch their kids all night, just to pitch in to clean up the mess their kids helped make at the end of the night.  If it took OP half an hour to clean it, even with legos and puzzles, it would only take a few minutes for everyone to pitch in and clean it, minus the legos and puzzles.  If a few minutes of picking up after one's own child is going to make one resentful, that isn't a problem with the host IMO.

Originally I thought what you thought - it was just a matter of everyone pitching in at the end to help clean up, which I thought was fine.  But she gave more information - that she sees the problem as not that a bunch of unsupervised children making a mess, but that their parents aren't interrupting the adult Bible study to go and "parent" their children.  So apparently the expectation isn't that children play on their own while the parents have their study, but that children play "on their own" while their parents *actually* watch them like hawks.  Which is an entirely different thing, and rather false advertising to me. 

 

I don't mind helping my dc pick up the "kids room" at the end of an adult time (although usually at our events, that is supervised by the people in charge of the kids' room, not the parents, which is nice and adds to the "hospitality for young parents" thing), but if "adult time" is *really* "half an ear on adult time while keeping half an eye on kid time", well that's exhausting and not worth it to me.  I've quit purely adult studies because attempting to keep my mobile baby out of trouble while also listening is simply not worth it.  An allegedly child-friendly study with separate play areas for the kids that *still* requires me to split my attention and be the one responsible for policing every move my dc makes as they make it?  Yeah, that's not that's child friendly, and woe to the poor parent who thought they might actually be able to relax and take a break because they thought the event was designed with kids being kids in mind.  I get what bolt's saying now.

[Soror]

So apparently the expectation isn't that children play on their own while the parents have their study, but that children play "on their own" while their parents *actually* watch them like hawks.  Which is an entirely different thing, and rather false advertising to me. 

 

I don't mind helping my dc pick up the "kids room" at the end of an adult time (although usually at our events, that is supervised by the people in charge of the kids' room, not the parents, which is nice and adds to the "hospitality for young parents" thing), but if "adult time" is *really* "half an ear on adult time while keeping half an eye on kid time", well that's exhausting and not worth it to me.

I don't see how one could even expect this as it is not something that the host can provide, considering the circumstances. If you have a small child who is under 7, especially those who are under school age it is not a reasonable expectation that you don't have to watch your kids. Having one ear and eye on the kids is expected. They are not old enough to watch themselves. The OP didn't say she expected they watch them like hawks but jumping in before they go crazy dumping toys or such seems like a minimal amount of trouble.

[Cindy in FL.]

Personally, when I have hosted weekly/regular events like this, I always prefer to clean up when everyone leaves. I find it easier that way. However, I would remove toys from the playroom before the event in order to limit the mess and to only have appropriate toys available. I never felt that they had to have and overwhelming or overabundant amount to play with. Plenty, but not too much. KWIM?

 

That being said, it would not bother me at all if the host/hostess requested that my children help with clean up at their home.

[SKL]

Maybe I'm crazy, but I would never expect that in the OP's situation I would not still be responsible for my kid.  Unless OP told everyone she would be hiring a sitter for the evening, I would assume my kid is 100% my responsibility.  I would let my kid play with the others in a separate room if I felt she was capable of doing that without dying or killing someone ;) , but my well-trained ear would be noticing everything that seemed out of whack, and I'd be going in there if I felt something wasn't right.  And I'd help clean up afterward.  IMO it is no different from when I am on a social visit with people who have kids of their own.  The kids go play and the adults chat, but my kid is still my kid when an adult's attention is needed.

 

If I was not able to get anything from the Bible study under those conditions, I would not bring my under-7 kid to one.  Or I'd suggest we all share the cost of a sitter for the evening.

 

What is it about Bible studies that makes the host suddenly the slave to all the other families, beyond what a host in a social situation would be?

[Heather in Neverland]

Originally I thought what you thought - it was just a matter of everyone pitching in at the end to help clean up, which I thought was fine. But she gave more information - that she sees the problem as not that a bunch of unsupervised children making a mess, but that their parents aren't interrupting the adult Bible study to go and "parent" their children. So apparently the expectation isn't that children play on their own while the parents have their study, but that children play "on their own" while their parents *actually* watch them like hawks. Which is an entirely different thing, and rather false advertising to me.

 

I don't mind helping my dc pick up the "kids room" at the end of an adult time (although usually at our events, that is supervised by the people in charge of the kids' room, not the parents, which is nice and adds to the "hospitality for young parents" thing), but if "adult time" is *really* "half an ear on adult time while keeping half an eye on kid time", well that's exhausting and not worth it to me. I've quit purely adult studies because attempting to keep my mobile baby out of trouble while also listening is simply not worth it. An allegedly child-friendly study with separate play areas for the kids that *still* requires me to split my attention and be the one responsible for policing every move my dc makes as they make it? Yeah, that's not that's child friendly, and woe to the poor parent who thought they might actually be able to relax and take a break because they thought the event was designed with kids being kids in mind. I get what bolt's saying now.

I am trying really hard to see this POV but I am struggling with it. So if I am at someone else's house for a bible study and my child goes into their child's room, grabs a box of Legos, holds it up in the air and dumps it out all over the floor then proceeds to grab handfuls of them and throw them around the room while screaming... I should just sit back and let it happen because this is "me" time? I shouldn't step away for a moment and get my own child under control?

 

Everyone is right, I should be more overt about people helping out (primarily at the end of the night but also throughout the evening if their child is out of control). I felt awkward doing it in the past because it felt like I was stepping on their toes by parenting their child right in front of them.

 

But I see now that my reluctance to do that may be seen instead as approving of their children's behavior.

[zoobie]

OK... just to clear things up... they are not completely "unsupervised". My dd's bedroom is adjacent to our living room where all the adults are and her door is open the whole time. So essentially, I can see the carnage taking place as it is happening but none of the parents stepped in to say "Hey, maybe you shouldn't throw legos all over the room." I didn't really want to step on someone else's toes and parent their children for them so I haven't said anything. And the kids don't just destroy the room. As we are talking they are dragging toys into the living room and dumping them out as well. And I did hide all of her puzzles in the closet but they went into the closet and pulled them all out.

 

I obviously need to find better hiding spots for her toys as the closet is not much of a deterrent.

Setting house rules is perfectly fine! Tell the kids ahead of time that they are responsible for the mess they make, and tell them her closet is off limits. Put a little masking tape or something over the door as a reminder. :)

 

Asking someone to spend a few minutes helping their kids straighten up is not an undue burden. It is burdensome to expect you to do everything while their Special Snowflakes dump out every toy.

[SKL]

Everyone is right, I should be more overt about people helping out (primarily at the end of the night but also throughout the evening if their child is out of control). I felt awkward doing it in the past because it felt like I was stepping on their toes by parenting their child right in front of them.

 

But I see now that my reluctance to do that may be seen instead as approving of their children's behavior.

 

Unfortunately I believe you're right about this.  I would not exactly "parent" other people's kids, but by sweetly reminding the child and/or gently "helping" him comply one time, you would send the message that this is not how you think the child should be behaving in your home.  A responsible parent would take it from there, if necessary.

 

I didn't know about throwing and screaming.  If that happened I would probably (gently again) suggest to the parent that Little X might need some guidance for a moment, as you don't want to see anyone get hurt.

 

If people got frustrated I would ask that all brainstorm a solution.

 

If that was offensive to someone, they have a choice to not return.

 

[Ellie]

Originally I thought what you thought - it was just a matter of everyone pitching in at the end to help clean up, which I thought was fine.  But she gave more information - that she sees the problem as not that a bunch of unsupervised children making a mess, but that their parents aren't interrupting the adult Bible study to go and "parent" their children.  So apparently the expectation isn't that children play on their own while the parents have their study, but that children play "on their own" while their parents *actually* watch them like hawks.  Which is an entirely different thing, and rather false advertising to me. 

 

I don't mind helping my dc pick up the "kids room" at the end of an adult time (although usually at our events, that is supervised by the people in charge of the kids' room, not the parents, which is nice and adds to the "hospitality for young parents" thing), but if "adult time" is *really* "half an ear on adult time while keeping half an eye on kid time", well that's exhausting and not worth it to me.  I've quit purely adult studies because attempting to keep my mobile baby out of trouble while also listening is simply not worth it.  An allegedly child-friendly study with separate play areas for the kids that *still* requires me to split my attention and be the one responsible for policing every move my dc makes as they make it?  Yeah, that's not that's child friendly, and woe to the poor parent who thought they might actually be able to relax and take a break because they thought the event was designed with kids being kids in mind.  I get what bolt's saying now.

 

There are some things that must change for adults once there are children in the picture, one of which is the expectation that they can have uninterrupted "adult time" when their children are still awake and in their proximity.

 

If parents want uninterrupted "adult time," then they can pay for a babysitter. Or they can use the nursery at church if it's an activity that happens at church. But to expect to go to someone's home and have uninterrupted adult time is not realistic. The people who come to the OP's home bring their children to her *home*. They *bring their children.* There should have been no expectation of uninterrupted adult time and every expectation of keeping half an ear on their children.

 

Such an event would not have been worth it to me, either. A monthly potluck, with the children mingling and relaxed conversations, yes; a "Bible study" with the children sequestered unsupervised in other rooms, no. NO (honestly, how in-depth can a Bible study be that is only monthly?).

[SKL]

NO (honestly, how in-depth can a Bible study be that is only monthly?).

 

I got the impression that it rotated among the different family's homes so it was at OP's only monthly.  Could be completely wrong on that.

 

[forty-two]

I don't see how one could even expect this as it is not something that the host can provide, considering the circumstances. If you have a small child who is under 7, especially those who are under school age it is not a reasonable expectation that you don't have to watch your kids. Having one ear and eye on the kids is expected. They are not old enough to watch themselves. The OP didn't say she expected they watch them like hawks but jumping in before they go crazy dumping toys or such seems like a minimal amount of trouble.

 

From the perspective of being a guest, yes, I expect to watch my dc at everything and I don't resent it.  If the event's not worth the effort of watching my dc at it, then I don't go - simple as that.  And there are a *lot* of things I don't go to.

 

But from the perspective of being a *host*, well, my goal is to to structure the event so as to provide the maximum benefit to my guests while simultaneously not offering more than I have to give.  And part of what I can give is a safe place for kids to be kids, where *I* take on some of the difficulties young children bring so as to take some of that burden off the shoulders of their parents for a moment.  Granted, if I have hit my limits in what I have able to give - as the OP has - then yes, something's got to change.  But it's not the *guests'* fault that I cannot offer everything I have in the past any more (not that it's a negative reflection on me that I can't offer what I used to, either).  And it's certainly not the guests' fault that I let them think I was freely offering something that I secretly begrudged.

 

IDK,so much of etiquette is a series of one-sided expectations on the part of the host and guest.  As a guest, I assume *nothing* - I assume I am responsible for everything I am usually responsible for, and am pleasantly surprised as the host blesses me with the hospitality they have chosen to give.

 

But as a *host*, I likewise assume *nothing*.  I offer what I have to give, freely, and assume that what *I* am giving is all there will be, and don't get upset when my guests don't fill in the gaps.

 

So, yes, ideally, there are no gaps because the host expects they will do everything and the guests nothing, and the guests expect nothing of the host and everything of themselves, and the gaps are dually covered.  But when there *is* a gap, as the guest I expect *I* am responsible for filling it myself.  But as the *host*, I *likewise* expect I am completely responsible for filling it myself.  If I can't do it, then I explicitly *ask* - not assume they "ought to", but *ask* - others for help.

 

IDK, I'm just hearing a lot of focus on how a host deserves better guests, but not how the host can continue to bless her guests though her (emotional) resources are less than they used to be.  To me *guests* improve an event by figuring out how to be better guests - it would be very bad etiquette for guests to focus on what the *host* should be doing better.  And likewise, *hosts* improve an event by figuring out how to be better *hosts* - it's bad etiquette for hosts to focus on what the *guests* should be doing better.   

 

Bolt just took that general principle and applied it specific to kid guests - that in addition to the general rudeness of *hosts* expecting their *guests* to fill in the hospitality gaps (instead of hosts looking to themselves, the only people they can control, to fill the gaps), adults cut other adults waaaay more slack than they give kids, even though adults are far more able than kids to regulate their behavior, and so kid guest behavior gets unfairly slammed twice compared to adult guest behavior.