Let's discuss radical unschooling....

[mommymilkies]

sorry! forgot to add the link, genscharm. http://familyrun.ning.com/forum/topics/violent-video-games

O.0

[swellmomma]

Well, here Sandra Dodd defends teabagging in Halo as simply "a rude gesture". Riggggght.

haha my kids think that is the funniest thing on halo...I disagree, lead to an interesting conversation I never thought I would have

[Guest submarines]

sorry! forgot to add the link, genscharm. http://familyrun.ning.com/forum/topics/violent-video-games

Thanks! Interesting discussion.

[Guest submarines]

Wow yeah now that you mention it I do feel like some of the parents were very angry and defensive over everything.

When unschooling is regularly described as "unparenting" it gets tiring. I think I was more defensive about it when we first started, but I wouldn't call myself "angry", just not my thing.

 

Now I really don't care to defend our educational choices.

[NASDAQ]

We have the same hang-out-with-the-unschoolers-because-they-are-the-not-religious-ones dynamic here.
And we have the same problem with a certain percentage of feral children (children from one family have repeatedly behaved violently) who aren't reigned in effectively.

 

When I see people describing _stopping biting_ as "micromanaging," well . . . yeah. Call it intensive, micromanaging, helicopter parenting, but I wouldn't want to be with a family (or heaven help us IN a family) where biting is seen as a "let the kids work it out themselves" situation.

 

I think it can work reasonably for some children, but I think it can result in disaster when parents stick to the philosophy even when their child is opting not to direct his own education.

[LibraryLover]

Anger about what? I'm just curious because I can't find any online rad hsing communities.

 

Not every one is angry.  That would be a misrepresentation.

 

It would have been a tough road for me, but I have admiration for those who stick it out.  I know lovely unschoolers.  I have learned a lot from them. 

[Χά�ων]

Well, since you brought it up, I've witnessed this, too.  My 2nd oldest unschooled for high school (not strict Sandra Dodd unschooling but what worked for our family).  Anyway, we decided to go to an unschooling conference.  I had been on email groups with many of the parents and was always so impressed with what they wrote.  I can't say when I met their children I was still quite so impressed.  The hotel turned into a free for all madhouse.  Of course, not all the children were behaving in such a manner, but it was enough that we couldn't enjoy ourselves.  We left on the second day, and I left with a different opinion of radical unschooling.  The thing I have to keep in mind is I know several radical unschooling families very well, and they do not resemble what I saw at this conference.  I think some people take the 'idea' of radical unschooling and try to implement across the board with children that weren't brought up that way from the start.  Or, that they're more interested in the ideal than they are with the reality.

 

We are not a rule oriented family.  In fact, we don't have rules, but general principles.  However, I would never allow my children to behave like many of the children were behaving at that conference.  One of our principles is to respect others' property and rights, and to be respectful.

 

Thank you for sharing your experience at an unschooling conference. I debating attending one a few years ago but stopped looking at it when a family who "unschools" that I keep at a distance for my son's safety started attending and I lost all interest. I am glad that I didn't miss anything.

[I.Dup.]

sorry! forgot to add the link, genscharm. http://familyrun.ning.com/forum/topics/violent-video-games

 

"When my younger daughter was 10ish she loved to play GTA and spent most of her

time picking up hookers, driving them to a dark alley, and beating them to death

for their money. I didn't find it a concern; I actually thought it was fairly

amusing. And I didn't play with her; she'd play on her own into the wee hours."

 

:huh:

[Meriwether]

Words are funny things.  I consider myself to be fairly strict.  I wouldn't touch radical unschooling with a 10ft. pole.  I just watched the Wife Swap episode, and I have to say I have more in common with the unschooling family. :eek:   I am strict...about the things I'm strict about.  I do impose limits on the kids.  I do expect obedience when I ask them to do something.  That probably sounds like the other mom, but our day to day lives fall in the middle toward the Martin side.  I wouldn't raise my kids the way the Martins are raising theirs.  I wouldn't have noticed that the oldest boy didn't wear a shirt a good bit of the time if someone else hadn't pointed it out.  I thought the kids were cute.  They were very polite when introducing themselves to San Diego Mom.  They didn't react well to the rules at all, though.  The 13 year old going on a cleaning strike? Cry me a river.  When I was his age, I spent my summer in the hayfield.

[NASDAQ]

sorry! forgot to add the link, genscharm. http://familyrun.ning.com/forum/topics/violent-video-games

 

Oh man, that one's a classic.

 

I also like this one.

 

http://familyrun.ning.com/forum/topics/video-game-addiction-the-quote?xg_source=activity

[tricia]

I've read a few books on unschooling over the last 25 years of homeschooling.  I say 25 because I have 12 kids and I am still schooling 6 of them.  While we are quite relaxed I wouldn't go so far as say we unschool.  Which, to some degree I see nothing wrong with it.  It just doesn't fit well with our family.  But my in laws are different.  My husband is the oldest of 11 kids and they pretty much had nada for rules.  Nearly all the time they did and ate whatever they wanted.  Or didn't do whatever they didn't want to do.  That said, and fast forwarding to now when they are all grown up I will say this:

Oldest-my husband-mechanical electrician and father of 12

Son-Works high in public affairs in his business-7 great kids

daughter-married a doctor-5 great kids

son-computer technician with 4 awesome kids

son-dentist who owns his practice-6 awesome kids

son-dentist and great father of 2

son-grocery store manager father of 3

daughter-married a dentist who also owns his own practice-almost 7 kids

daughter-married a lawyer mother of 5

son-doctor and father of 1

son-doctor and father of 2

I say this only because at some point these kids knew how and when to be responsible folks and raise great kids despite what the world would say regarding their "free" upbringing.  Personally I think that even in the absence of academics, rules, and all that somewhere family relationships just seem to win out in the end!  Just some thoughts!

[MollyAnn]

Dayna Martin is the new Mango Mama and I would not be surprised if she ends up insane living in a jungle.

 

I offer cereal and PB&J alternatives to the dinner I make. Kids are free to make their own breakfast and lunch. I grew up watching my mother cook a full dinner only to have my father walk in the door and say he didn't want that so she would make another whole meal. Making more than one dinner is insane. I refuse to do it.

 

I was part of an unschooling group when we first started because I didn't want to sign a statement of faith and they were the only non religious group in the area. I tend to stay away from those who call themselves unschoolers now.

We were invited over to someone's house, then the mother asked us to stay on the couch and not touch anything till she could see if her son had changed his mind about not wanting anyone to touch his toys. We waited 30min before being asked to leave because her son was adamant that he would not share. I stayed 25min longer than I should have.

Another mother never raised her voice to her children, never corrected them, they never did anything wrong in her opinion. But let someone else's child infringe on her children in any way and she would yell at them. Her son and my DD did not get along. She was constantly in my face about making DD apologize to her son for doing something. Her son would push DD so DD would push him back and then she would have to apologize. When I asked where was his apology her response was that DD must have antagonized him in some way that made him push her.

I put on the Valentines Day party at my house. One of the 8yo boys jumped into the baby swing with both feet. I was being unreasonable for being upset that he bent it and it was no longer usable. He was after all just being a child. Mother refused to pay for it and told me I should be glad to be rid of a mother replacement.

Then there was the constant demeaning from the other mothers that I was actually using books to teach. How could I subject my son to the repetition of 100EZ? Wasn't I bothered by the torture I was inflicting by making them memorize math facts? It was a nightmare. I stayed three months and I stayed that long because I had just pulled DD out of school, I was unsure about everything and wanted to be in a support group, and I thought they needed to be around other kids. I got over that.

 

I know that not all unschoolers are like this, probably the majority of them aren't. This group just gave a really bad impression.

 

That said, Dayna Martin does not claim to be an unschooler. She says they don't school at all. The kids have their iPads and iPods and just look up what they want to learn about. I don't see how a 10yo who is learning to read by texting can look up anything to read and learn. I first heard about Dayne Martin when a FB friend posted that she was excited about Dayna being on Wife Swap. So I watched. I was horrified by both families, as we are supposed to be.

[Joanne]

As a parenting teacher and author, I researched alternative parenting methods. Non coercive parentng, TCS were common permissive styles then. (Yes, I know the rhetoric about TCS not being "permissive"..........) Radical unschooling/unparenting was just getting formed.

 

In the end, I rejected it as a viable parenting paradigm, and rejected most styles of unschooling also.

 

Now, in my new role, research supports the best outcomes from children in the following order:

 

1. Authoritative

2. Authoritarian

3. Permissive

[PachiSusan]

Wow. This thread is a real page turner! I have not run across any unparenters or unschoolers in my real life so it's fascinating to read about it.

[Halcyon]

Oh man, that one's a classic.

 

I also like this one.

 

http://familyrun.ning.com/forum/topics/video-game-addiction-the-quote?xg_source=activity

Oh yes, I remember that one.......

[Murphy101]

But what if a child doesn't want to learn anything?  What if he feels in his heart that he shouldn't learn algebra?  What if he just knows that the first draft of his essay is superior, and he shouldn't have to do anything to improve it?

Ahem.

 

What if ANY kid does that?

 

One cannot beat knowledge into a brain that doesn't want it, regardless of the education model or parenting philosophy.

 

I'm not at all for radical anything wrt to education or parenting. But I do think the above is an important thing to remember and generally why I tend to just shake my head and move on without giving it much more thought.

 

Actually, tbh I haven't read any parenting philosophy stuff for personal insights since my oldest was about 7. They are mostly rubbish with smattering of that rare thing called common sense. Raising kids is not a philosophical endeavor or a psychological experiment.

[FaithManor]

Rebecca, I can tell you what is happening with my nephew, the now 18 year old who spent his entire childhood refusing to do anything that was not entertaining, refusing to work, refusing to be responsible, refusing to apply himself in school, and so on and so forth. His mother is sick of supporting him and told him to get off the couch in 30 days. He can't get a job - no skills, jobs are mega tight here anyway so 18 year olds with bright futures can't get jobs, he refused to apply to CC or trade school because that would have required him to stop playing video games long enough to actually do something proactive about his future - he thinks he's so wonderful that a high paying job should just be laid in his lap...something where he can be paid to goof off all day apparently - and while she has encouraged her precious little snowflake all along, it suddenly wasn't so cute anymore when he got big, mouthy, and his laziness began negatively affecting her.

 

So, with no options to go to school this fall, no one willing to hire him (not even his own grandfather who has a position open in his business and is willing to provide training and schooling for a solid candidate - WHICH THIS BOY IS NOT), and a very angry adult parent ready to rip his head off, a fiance (yes, you heard that right...he proposed to his girlfriend at high school graduation and she was dumb enough to say yes) that is wondering what the future holds if cutie pie doesn't decide to apply himself to something so she was considering breaking off the engagement, he got desperate and joined the army!

 

Now, you know what Martha said about not being able to beat knowledge into a brain that doesn't want it, well, I know enough army guys to know that the military is the exception to that rule. I figure 24 hrs. into basic training, and he's going to be black and blue from what his mates do to him. I can envision the first barracks inspection and this little boy mouthing off at his drill sergeant so the whole outfit gets sent on a ten mile run with 60 lb. backpacks as punishment. Yep, oh, he's going to have some knowledge beat into him alright. Lots of beatings. He'll either shape up, or they'll bounce him out and around here, this very patriotic, support the troops, military service is VERY noble, kind of area, he won't get employment anywhere...not even detassling corn in the summer heat at a local farm with a dishonorable discharge on his record. No.one.will.have.him.

 

I am so sad for my nephew that he is going to have to learn his lessons in such a harsh manner. Honestly, he is extremely bright, in the natural intelligence, academics comes easy sense. He could make a brilliant career in the army, but it requires self-discipline, a willingness to DO WHAT YOU ARE TOLD  EVEN IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT, and conceding that life isn't always rainbows and posies, traits that he does not currently possess.

 

The little girl running around wearing his crackerjack box ring on her finger really needs to collect her brain cells and think about this relationship long and hard. She has completed cosmetology school and has a part-time job in a salon. None of the salons are hiring full time. She can't support a family on that, and this boy is not good marriage potential, at least not now. Maybe, just maybe, a group of guys that aren't going to take his crap, and a drill sergeant with a vision will turn him into a man, but honestly, dh and I kind of don't see anything but a dishonorable discharge in his future. No matter what, someone really is going to attempt to beat some knowledge into him!

[dirty ethel rackham]

I started out homeschooling as an avid "John Holt" style unschooler.  We already were into gentle parenting/attachment parenting (not the unparenting it morphed into in the late 90's but the Dr. Sears "Discipline Book" style).  I embraced the "teaching" model of discipline rather than the punitive.  This was a reaction to the very punitive parenting I was raised with. 

 

So, unschooling seemed like a natural extension.  I loved it.  Learning was a family activity.  We did lots of field trips.  I followed their lead. My guiding philosophies were mutual respect and creating a positive learning environment.  We did limit media because I knew that I had an addictive personality so I knew that the best learning happened when my kids were curious.  Addictive behaviors stifled curiosity.  Those were my golden years of homeschooling.  After I had my third child, things changed.  I was exhausted all the time and barely surviving (probably some PPD, but also dealing with my sensory kid.)  When my kids asked to do something, I found that I was saying "Later" way too often.  Then my kids learned that "later" meant probably "never."  They started to lose their natural curiosity.  They started to fight me on everything.  That is when I realized that unschooling wasn't working for us anymore.  I knew then that we needed structure - I needed structure.  We were still fairly relaxed about many things, but I knew that I needed a plan so that I could be more intentional.  That is what saved our homeschooling.  I consider myself an eclectic homeschooler with a touch of classical.  I miss those unschooling day!  It was so much fun. 

 

Early on in our homeschooling journey, I was fortunate enough to find a truly inclusive support group ... they were supportive of the many styles of homeschooling out there and they were open to people regardless of faith or beliefs   People who joined that were intolerant of others pretty much left.  Some formed a Christian group with a SOF designed to keep out most mainline Christians.  Others were just too entrenched in their own homeschooling philosophies to understand that there was more than one right way to do things.  Later, an unschooling group formed that turned out to be more of the radical unschooling type.  I spent a little time with them, but was turned off by the unparenting (kids being truly awful to other kids, running wild in places where it was not appropriate, kids being rude to their parents.)  I was also turned off by the judgemental attitudes of many of the other moms - I read to my child every night?  What torture!  He was reading books?  I must have forced him - never mind that he taught himself to read at 4.  We counted spoons while setting the table?  What - you make your children do chores?  The behavior of the kids in this group was a main reason why many popular field trip opportunities dried up for homeschoolers - many of these businesses and museums were turned off by the bad behavior and the unwillingness of these parents to address them.   We didn't last long. 

 

Funny, despite how strict and punitive my parents were, my mom had the gall to tell me that I was too demanding of my children (about 2 minutes after telling me I was going to raise brats if I didn't spank them.)  Later on, when she saw the proof in the pudding ... that I had decent, well-behaved kids who were learning and doing amazing things, she admitted that she was wrong about me.  She realized that there was more than one way to the end goal. 

[mommymilkies]

I've read a few books on unschooling over the last 25 years of homeschooling.  I say 25 because I have 12 kids and I am still schooling 6 of them.  While we are quite relaxed I wouldn't go so far as say we unschool.  Which, to some degree I see nothing wrong with it.  It just doesn't fit well with our family.  But my in laws are different.  My husband is the oldest of 11 kids and they pretty much had nada for rules.  Nearly all the time they did and ate whatever they wanted.  Or didn't do whatever they didn't want to do.  That said, and fast forwarding to now when they are all grown up I will say this:

Oldest-my husband-mechanical electrician and father of 12

Son-Works high in public affairs in his business-7 great kids

daughter-married a doctor-5 great kids

son-computer technician with 4 awesome kids

son-dentist who owns his practice-6 awesome kids

son-dentist and great father of 2

son-grocery store manager father of 3

daughter-married a dentist who also owns his own practice-almost 7 kids

daughter-married a lawyer mother of 5

son-doctor and father of 1

son-doctor and father of 2

I say this only because at some point these kids knew how and when to be responsible folks and raise great kids despite what the world would say regarding their "free" upbringing.  Personally I think that even in the absence of academics, rules, and all that somewhere family relationships just seem to win out in the end!  Just some thoughts!

Well in my family most of the cousins raised this way ended up in jail or addicted to something.  Just because one family had a good outcome, doesn't mean that all do, for sure.

[AlmiraGulch]

  But no I don't let them bite people or hit people or tear up someone's property.  That's the sort of extreme we are talking about. 

You DON'T?!?!?  What's wrong with you?  You're stunting them.  Surely they're going to grow up to be serial killers.  Don't say I didn't warn you.   :lol:

[dirty ethel rackham]

Oh man, that one's a classic.

 

I also like this one.

 

http://familyrun.ning.com/forum/topics/video-game-addiction-the-quote?xg_source=activity

 

Oh my ... what a load of crap.  So, mom is supposed to cater to this child BRINGING HIM FOOD so he can follow his passions?  This looks more infantilizing that freeing. 

[Jayne J]

Oh man, that one's a classic.

 

I also like this one.

 

http://familyrun.ning.com/forum/topics/video-game-addiction-the-quote?xg_source=activity

Ho. ly. Carp. Seriously? :ohmy:

[fairfarmhand]

Oh man, that one's a classic.

 

I also like this one.

 

http://familyrun.ning.com/forum/topics/video-game-addiction-the-quote?xg_source=activity

 

oh. my. word. :svengo: :svengo: :svengo:

[livetoread]

I would be so tempted to see how extreme one could take it. I could talk about how I not only brought him food, but I brought a bedpan so he wouldn't have to stop, and then wiped his bum afterwards. I would stand next to him when he had a cold and wipe his nose for him. Because I'm just that supportive!

[HRAAB]

I have a brilliant idea.  How about moderation, common sense and working for the good of the family?  Early in homeschooling I read and re-read John Holt's books. I thought they were full of common sense - doing what worked - while keeping the child's spirit alive. They influenced our homeschooling in the early years.  Then years later when my high school dd was unschooling (probably John Holt style) I met radical unschoolers.  There was very little middle of the road about them.  Just extreme.  I think unschooling, child led, delight directed homeschooling can open so many doors.  Yet I know a family with 8 kids who have used Seton from K through 12, and their kids are very happy and well adjusted and seem to love learning and value their education.  Their adult children are a pleasure to know, and they all talk about what a wonderful childhood they had.  Maybe rather than the homeschooling method, a good outcome depends on the interaction between parent and child, treating children with respect and valuing them as persons.  Letting your child destroy property, talk rudely to adults, lay around on a couch or play games all day while catering to their needs is not showing them respect as individuals.  

[Guest]

I was also turned off by the judgemental attitudes of many of the other moms - I read to my child every night?  What torture!  He was reading books?  I must have forced him - never mind that he taught himself to read at 4.

That is SO familiar! I've had to hide the fact that I'm a word nerd as if it were a bigger flaw than alcoholism.

 

I still can't bring myself to admit that we skipped Park Day because ds learned to read literally overnight and that was more fun and exciting, so I just said that an "emergency" came up. ;)

 

It's such a relief to notice that I forgot a colon in my sig line and know that it's okay to fix it; I don't think anyone here is going to hassle me about it even if they notice and wouldn't do the same thing themselves.

[LibraryLover]

I would be so tempted to see how extreme one could take it. I could talk about how I not only brought him food, but I brought a bedpan so he wouldn't have to stop, and then wiped his bum afterwards. I would stand next to him when he had a cold and wipe his nose for him. Because I'm just that supportive!

 

Oh, this made me laugh!

 

I want a follow-up, and life being what it is, this kid is probably working at Pixar or has some other great job.

[livetoread]

Oh, this made me laugh!

 

I want a follow-up, and life being what it is, this kid is probably working at Pixar or has some other great job.

No kidding. One thing I have learned about parenting is there are many ways to do it, and often things I was sure were going to be a disaster seem to have worked out ok. Having said that, I'm not much of a risk-taker, and my kids are stuck with boring, old-fashioned limits and responsibilities. So far they seem to be handling it ok!

[happybeachbum]

There is a very real difference between radical unschooling and unparenting.

 

Parents of unschooling children (because parents don't unschool, the children do) are actively engaged in encouraging and facilitating their children's learning, following their children's lead.

 

The families I know who embrace unschooling (not just call doing nothing all day "unschooling" to legitimize it) have no problem saying no to their children, or asking them to operate with respect for others. They may not think too much about jumping on the trampoline if everyone is up at 2 am and they don't have neighbors, but they would not allow a child to disrupt everyone else on a whim.

 

I think the perception problem is that people who call themselves "non-coercive" and parent without even a suggestion of a path to follow, or what a child might have interest in, because that would be a form of "coercion", are drawn to unschooling because it is also child led. But they're not so inextricably linked as to be synonymous.

 

I remember the whole cray cray of this with the Greene Family.  I later found a post from Sandra Dodd on her site talking about this very thing

[happybeachbum]

And it's a reason that Sandra Dodd wrote a post about Radical Unschooling vs. Taking Children Seriously.  And really anyone who tried to throw out the person who coined or invented a philosophy/movement you need to take a side eye at.  Thank goodness people that read and commented on that whole The Dark Side of John Holt weren't having any of that.

 

 

The first time I read the Taking Children Seriously website, I thought it was plain ridiculous.  I most certainly was going to "coerce" my children.  They were going to be raised with limits, rules, morals, etc. When I read that if kids didn't want to get into the carseat, we could just walk, I was appalled.  I wasn't in walking distance from my children's doctor!  On the TCS forum, there was discussion of a mother wearing Depends because the child didn't want to go into the bathroom at the mall.  Uh, no.  Then there is the fact that my God REQUIRES parents to inculcate (instill by persistent teaching) His commands into their hearts day in and day out.  

 

Through the years, I noticed myself less offended. I, in fact, seemed to use many of the same arguments as I discussed positive and non-punitive discipline. I absolutely believed my first children and I were a team to problem solve together.  And we did. With one more challenging child and one *really* easy child, we have a very peaceful home.  Very.   But when it came down to it, I most certainly was willing to "pull rank" as necessary.  Again, I do believe children are given to parents to be taught and guided.  

 

And now I have these children.  They need a LOT more empathy and kindness.  And yet they need a LOT more in terms of limits, teaching, help, boundaries, correction, etc.  Now, I most certainly want to continue to calm down and be *very* mindful in how I parent them.  I have learned that a lot of things CAN be, even SHOULD be, overlooked or handled with empathy.  It is *hard* to be empathetic the 15th or 115th time your kid poops on himself because he's mad at you.  There have been behaviors that took away from time I needed for myself, to do foster care related documentation, etc.  There was a behavior that was repulsive to me and I wasn't able to handle it the way I wanted because of "the system" (btw, that was the biggest blessing we've had because waiting until I had a strong relationship with the child enabled us to handle it better when we finally did and when there were "relapses").  

 

In a LOT of ways, I *really* wish we could get to the point that I could raise them like I did my big kids.  Unfortunately, they are not well enough for that to work.  They would be terribly insecure without strict boundaries, limited choices, firm limits, consistent handling.  In time, I'm hoping they, like my big kids, will internalize, learning self-discipline rather than having ME impose these things on them.  I think that is a reasonable goal.  It was just easier to do with children who hadn't been "hurt children" to start with. 

 

In the end, for my children, I need to find a balance.  Well, and really, that is the case for everyone.  People who use non-coercive parenting seem, imo, to be bowing to the child's every whim.  That doesn't seem healthy for ANYONE involved.  

 

Some examples:

 

Jumping on the trampoline at 2am.  No.  Fact is that children need sleep and there are key times that really ARE better for everyone to be sleeping.  Additionally, *I* need my sleep.  My kids won't be up at 2am because *I* won't be up at 2am.  And then if neither of those are good enough reasons, respect for neighbor would be the deciding force.  My neighbors don't want to hear trampoline springs, giggling children, etc at 2am. 

 

Six different suppers?  No.  Now, we do adjust meals based on preference and needs. Swimmer gets twice as much food as anyone else.  He also gets twice as much butter and a number of other things.  And if I know kid doesn't like A, then I give her/him more of B.  Ace and Champ don't like tortillas (weird...lol); so I give them food differently.  I think one way to have everyone involved would be to work up a menu together.  If that was something my family was interested in, I'd probably do that, at least much of the time.  As it is, I might say, "so what veggie should we have with our roast chicken?" Just yesterday, my son chose.  And the day before my daughter did.  Cool.  But a family works TOGETHER and being a short order cook isn't respectful to ME.  

 

In the one video I watched trying to find the WS video, she encourages the woman to simply move around the yard so the child can get on the hammock (or something).  Well, if that is your only kid or you can move so you can see where all the children are, GREAT.  But if that isn't the case?   How do you watch one kid ride his bike in the street and the other jump in the backyard? Then it is the child who coerces the sibling the best? That is what would happen HERE.  They all would dig in, but eventually, the one wins because the consequence of that one not winning is too great OR the other wins because the personality is stronger.  SO how is THAT fair?  And no, I'm not taking the trampoline apart enough to get it through the fence so it can be in the front yard!  

 

And btw, ever notice how coercive to other parents non-coercive parenting is?  One thing I love about Beyond Consequences is that it is empathetic to the parent also!  Obviously if I'm having a reaction, it is because *I* too am a person with feelings about the situation and/or things from the past.  I love that taking care of myself, being kind to myself, etc is part of the paradigm.  Non-coercive parenting is *very* judgmental and coercive of parents!  Well, or at least its proponents, including D.M. have been (though she did do it nicely and the lady had asked).  

 

ANyway, sorry to ramble.  I really just believe in balance.  I think that a family who teaches problem solving and cooperation and respect can have a home that looks pretty non-coercive the great majority of the time.  I also believe parents need to be real to themselves and take their role as PARENTS seriously. A balance.  

 

[FaithManor]

NM 

 

[In2why]

We have the same hang-out-with-the-unschoolers-because-they-are-the-not-religious-ones dynamic here.

And we have the same problem with a certain percentage of feral children (children from one family have repeatedly behaved violently) who aren't reigned in effectively.

 

When I see people describing _stopping biting_ as "micromanaging," well . . . yeah. Call it intensive, micromanaging, helicopter parenting, but I wouldn't want to be with a family (or heaven help us IN a family) where biting is seen as a "let the kids work it out themselves" situation.

 

I think it can work reasonably for some children, but I think it can result in disaster when parents stick to the philosophy even when their child is opting not to direct his own education.

Could make for some interesting conversations with my own children over biting."You tell an adult when someone hurts you, unless it is that kid. If he bites you.....smack him in the face with your Tonka Truck." Natural consequences at work. (Sarc)

[Jean in Newcastle]

Nm.

 

I think I've reached the point in my life where I no longer care to engage in misapprehensions around unschooling :)

esp. on a thread over a year old?  Not that it probably matters on a thread like this but some people might have different opinions now. . .

[liber]

What drama is that?

[HS Mom in NC]

"Mammals need some parenting, reptiles don't.  My kids are mammals." Unschooling friend of mine in response to unparenting labeled as unschooling.

[Lady Florida.]

Eek! I hate zombie threads...

 

Appropriate, since The Walking Dead is back. :)

[liber]

http://unschoolingthegreenfamily.blogspot.com/2013_07_01_archive.html

 

That is part ten. This was all over Dayna's page too. She apologized for some of it. I saw her at a conference. let's just say she isnt what she says she is. She yells. ;)

I read some of it. Yikes!

[PachiSusan]

I read some of it. Yikes!

 

I know - WOW!!!! Such vileness and nasty fighting!! EEK! :confused1:

[JaneEyre]

A few years ago I signed up on a radical unschooling yahoo group. I was only a member for one day.

 

If I remember it right, there was an about 10yr old boy who had taken a gun into his house and shot his laptop. This was the second time he had done this and the mother thought that she shouldn't buy him a new one this time. She thought he should have to earn money and buy his own. All the other moms started basically attacking her just for that. Nobody ever mentioned that you should not allow a 10yo to shot laptops in your home or that he should in the slightest be punished.

 

I knew then it was not the group for me.

[Guest TheObserver]

I love this discussion and joined this forum because I loved the responses so much. I was home schooled as a kid my entire education in a fundamentalist christian family. Looking back now it was a mix of home schooling and unschooling.My parents justified their actions, saying public education falls short in many areas and parents are ultimately responsible for the kids education. The main reason I was home schooled was because of their religious beliefs. I was the 2nd oldest of the kids and my mom did not know how to parent, or teach me the subjects I needed to learn. I was far behind my younger siblings in areas such as math and science.

 

Recently I have been living with a lady who unschools or "de-schools" her 8yr old asperger son. She had him in charter school till he was well into his 7th year and she pulled him out because he was having regular meltdowns. She divorced the father (the father is verbally abusive to her and son) and she works from home. I think the way she parents comes from her not dealing with her own childhood problems. She sees her ex husband as a "authoritarian asshole" and so she parents to the opposite extreme. She gives her son unlimited screen time, which he takes full advantage of, he has a xbox, wii, and a laptop he has going all day long, as well as a ipad he is on constantly as well. He has maxed out the games he can have on his ipad, so he is always uses his mom's iphone and getting stuff on there, she recently realized she couldnt even take pictures on it anymore because the memory was so low.

 

She has an older daughter with Autism. Her daughter is somewhat independent, and the mom does not give her near the attention of the boy. She basically gives the boy anything he wants, she caters meals to him and he never has to learn anything about cooking. She takes him out to eat on a regular basis and never takes her daughter anywhere. What I found most alarming was the co sleeping. She has him sleep in her bed every night and has never helped him learn to sleep on his own. She has repeatedly said she does not want him growing up and getting a deeper voice. I personally think she likes how little boys are and has a negative view of men. He has only 1 friend who comes over and talks with him, other boys find him too odd and she keeps him away from regular kids. He is inside playing games about 10 hours a day, and the maddening thing about it is that she keeps telling me (trying to convince herself most likely) that he is learning alot from the video games and screen time. He follows a few youtube channels that play video games and comment and that is pretty much all he watches throughout the day. She keeps telling me he is learning plenty and does not need traditional school, this  is plenty. He has fine motor problems and has very poor handwriting, but she never works with him to improve, at the slightest difficulty he starts to have a meltdown and she gives in and says forcing a kid to do something they hate is not good and there is no good reason for it. 

 

I think she is setting her son up for failure.  Radical unschooling is great for kids who are self motivated and do not have handicaps such as aspergers (fine motor and learning difficulties), but for parents who become frustrated with the school system and simply stop educating the kid altogether, I think it is a form of child abuse, depriving the kid of basic learning skills.

[Ausmumof3]

No just realised this was an old thread.