What's wrong with this picture? (Warning: sexual abuse triggers)

[Aelwydd]

I can't really describe the levels of anger and disgust this story evokes in me.  Here you go: a prime example of where the "men's sexual urges are the burden and responsibility of women" line of thinking leads to.  It leads to the crimilization of women when men are the offenders.

[jewellsmommy]

I can't really describe the levels of anger and disgust this story evokes in me.  Here you go: a prime example of where the "men's sexual urges are the burden and responsibility of women" line of thinking leads to.  It leads to the crimilization of women when men are the offenders.

 

Wow. That is soooo wrong. :crying: :cursing:

[Retired]

Sharia Law!  I guess she got lucky that they are more progressive she could of been stoned in other Muslim countries.  (sarcasm)    I think sadly she was not very informed about the laws.  I've never visited or plan to visit the country but have a read enough about Sharia regarding a rape "needing to be witness by several men" or the women wouldn't be believed.   I read the Koran and other Islamic stuff to better understand the whole 9/11 thing.  I think the 24 year old lady should of stayed home.  I hate for her ordeal but its not a "secret"  there are  laws against women in Islamic countries.   

[Mrs Mungo]

Sharia Law! I guess she got lucky that they are more progressive she could of been stoned in other Muslim countries. (sarcasm) I think sadly she was not very informed about the laws. I've never visited or plan to visit the country but have a read enough about Sharia regarding a rape "needing to be witness by several men" or the women wouldn't be believed. I read the Koran and other Islamic stuff to better understand the whole 9/11 thing. I think the 24 year old lady should of stayed home. I hate for her ordeal but its not a "secret" there are laws against women in Islamic countries.

She was there on business and the attacker was a co-worker. Are you suggesting that upwardly mobile young women should refuse jobs that include travel?

[jewellsmommy]

Sharia Law!  I guess she got lucky that they are more progressive she could of been stoned in other Muslim countries.  (sarcasm)    I think sadly she was not very informed about the laws.  I've never visited or plan to visit the country but have a read enough about Sharia regarding a rape "needing to be witness by several men" or the women wouldn't be believed.   I read the Koran and other Islamic stuff to better understand the whole 9/11 thing.  I think the 24 year old lady should of stayed home.  I hate for her ordeal but its not a "secret"  there are  laws against women in Islamic countries.   

 

I don't like to read of women being victimized like this either. If someone I loved was going to one of these places I would be very worried and maybe even be tempted to persuade them to not go, but to blanket suggest that women should not go there is a victimization all its own. Is this not letting them perpetuate their line of thinking? If women stayed in their place then they would be safe? I do understand what you are saying, but we can not give into that. It is sad and sick and wrong and I do not begin to suggest that I have the answer, but I know that to suggest that the WOMEN are the ones who need to adjust their expectations, their careers, their lives etc. is not the way we will see change come about.

 

 

 

 

 

 

ETA: And just to cover my bases here, if anyone misunderstands my unspecific wording to think that I am bashing any one particular religion or people group; allow me to clarify. I speak against the attitude that women are lesser, objects to be dominated, resources to be used, etc. The 'them' I reference is any person who believes, accepts, or demonstrates this attitude. Wherever these attitudes are tolerated and upheld as the norm or supported by authority-those are the 'places' I reference in my 2nd sentence.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Sharia Law! I guess she got lucky that they are more progressive she could of been stoned in other Muslim countries. (sarcasm) I think sadly she was not very informed about the laws. I've never visited or plan to visit the country but have a read enough about Sharia regarding a rape "needing to be witness by several men" or the women wouldn't be believed. I read the Koran and other Islamic stuff to better understand the whole 9/11 thing. I think the 24 year old lady should of stayed home. I hate for her ordeal but its not a "secret" there are laws against women in Islamic countries.

I am just going to pretend your post was sarcasm and you were simply trying to show awful victim blaming can be.

[LucyStoner]

Sharia Law!  I guess she got lucky that they are more progressive she could of been stoned in other Muslim countries.  (sarcasm)    I think sadly she was not very informed about the laws.  I've never visited or plan to visit the country but have a read enough about Sharia regarding a rape "needing to be witness by several men" or the women wouldn't be believed.   I read the Koran and other Islamic stuff to better understand the whole 9/11 thing.  I think the 24 year old lady should of stayed home.  I hate for her ordeal but its not a "secret"  there are  laws against women in Islamic countries.   

 

Isn't that espousing the same general attitude about women as this backwards, absurd law?  That women can keep themselves safe if they stay home and out of the workplace?  That it's up to a woman not to get raped rather than a man to simply not rape anyone?  Oh.  My.  Goodness.  

[Aelwydd]

She was there on business and the attacker was a co-worker. Are you suggesting that upwardly mobile young women should refuse jobs that include travel?

 

That is what boggles my mind. Why should her freedom be impinged upon? She did nothing wrong.  She was there on legitimate business, in her room, asleep.  She wakes up in the middle of being raped, and while he gets convicted, she also gets charged with criminal behavior.  There is a mentality behind this that strikes me very much of what has gone on recently in India, with women being attacked for even daring to be about the public.

 

 

It's punishment for merely daring to exist as a female.

[ChristusG]

I didn't feel that cafelatte was blaming the victim. Obviously, the legal system in they country needs to change regarding these laws. That's apparent. And what happened to this girl is obviously appalling. But until those changes are made, women should probably steer clear of the area. I know I would. Just like I wouldn't just saunter into all areas of the city that I live in.... It has dangerous parts. It's not saying that women's jobs should be infringed upon and they can't travel...it's that they need to be informed and safe about where they travel to.

[Mrs Mungo]

I didn't feel that cafelatte was blaming the victim. Obviously, the legal system in they country needs to change regarding these laws. That's apparent. And what happened to this girl is obviously appalling. But until those changes are made, women should probably steer clear of the area. I know I would. Just like I wouldn't just saunter into all areas of the city that I live in.... It has dangerous parts. It's not saying that women's jobs should be infringed upon and they can't travel...it's that they need to be informed and safe about where they travel to.

 

You are spectacularly missing the point. If the country isn't safe, then the *company she works for* and *all* of its employees should keep away. *AND/OR* the company should work towards social change and awareness, letting those in power know that companies will not do business with countries that are unsafe. It IS subjugating women to say that *women* should avoid the country in order to keep themselves safe.

[ChristusG]

Pretty sure I didn't miss the point. In a perfect world that would be great.... But most companies are out for the almighty dollar and if Dubai is a lucrative place, then unfortunately they probably will not cut ties with a company that's located there.

 

It's horrible, but there is evil in this world and it will just get worse. Evil happens to all groups....blacks, whites, men, women, Christian, Muslim.... In some places some groups are targeted more than others. When the law refuses to help you then you must take your safety into your own hands until the laws can be changed. You can't just waltz into a "danger zone" and declare the laws to be unfair while you are harmed. Protect yourself first, even if that means avoiding that particular area, and fight for change while you are safe.

[creekland]

 

She also revealed that she was suspended by Qatar-based home-furnishings company The One after her arrest, according to media in Norway, where her case has dominated the news and sparked outrage.

She told NRK that her suspension letter cited "gross misconduct on the job in direct violation of the company's policy" and the firm wants to fire her.

In response, Norwegian colleges cut their ties with The One, which has recruited students from across Scandinavia to come work in the Gulf, The Local reported.

 

This hitting the news and people (who can) responding are what will (hopefully) eventually change this incredibly wrong policy and judgment.  There's no way I would ever support the company she was working for considering their response.  (I don't think we have them in the US anyway, but still...)

[marbel]

It's a terrible thing, no one would argue that.   From the linked article:

 

 

 

Thursday, the Norwegian Department of Foreign Affairs said the verdict "flies in the face of our notion of justice" and was "highly problematic" in terms of Western human rights.

 

Westerners often misunderstand Dubai, a cosmopolitan Arabian Gulf city-state boasting the tallest building in the world and glamorous malls.

 

"It can seem modern here, and the comfort level is high," one Norwegian resident told NRK. "But it's a Muslim country, and folks must realize that before they travel."

 

Noting the influence of Sharia law, he added, "In reality, there are completely different rules that apply, completely shocking rules."

 

 

As a practical matter, staying out of countries that have these sorts of laws is the only protection against the laws. It doesn't matter that it doesn't fit our notion of "fair."   It doesn't matter that it's "unfair" to women to expect them to restrict themselves.  

 

 

[Kathryn]

She was fired by Janet Jackson's husband for "unacceptable and improper behavior." I find that a little ironic.

 

http://touch.vg.no/article.php?artid=10112152

[clarkacademy]

I know of women who believe and teach their daughters that it is a womans responsibility to dress, to act etc all in keeping a man from impure thoughts.

[Harriet Vane]

. . .  the *company she works for* and *all* of its employees should keep away. *AND/OR* the company should work towards social change and awareness, letting those in power know that companies will not do business with countries that are unsafe. It IS subjugating women to say that *women* should avoid the country in order to keep themselves safe.

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

[Retired]

I'm not sure how to address all the different responses to my first post.    I'm not against women or women being successful.  My previous post is to point out that those Islamic countries already have the mind set that women are "evil" and bring men down.  I know we would like to believe that we can spread women's democratic rights to other countries .    We have been in a war for over decade trying to undo sharia law countries.     My response was that the lady should of be more informed.    I don't know the background of how she ended up working in the country.   She didn't deserved to be raped.  The co-worker that  raped her was he from her country or that country.  He may of been a Norwegian but the laws of the land are what they are.  He was an ass that took advantage of the law.  He probably knew he wouldn't' get prosecuted.

 

I just don't think sending western women to Sharia law counties are necessarily going to "enlighten" the country.  The 2 wars show that it just makes the radicals more determined to get the western women's culture out of their lands.   I know that this particular country has been courting western business and ideas but in a theocracy that still blames everything on women.  I just don't think its the best career move for women.     I  will repeat that I don't' think she deserved to be raped but shouldn't' of been surprised that she would of been blamed.  She was not very informed regarding the countries laws.  

 

I didn't know my first response was be so controversial.  I expected if anyone had a problem with my previous post it was going to be something like I'm anti Muslim.  I would of never guess someone would get I blame her or anti women.   I can see why I kind of drifted of the board for awhile.   I don't get my point a cross very well in the written word.  

[Anne in CA]

I remember a new story that circulated about 10 years ago where a high school girl reported a rape in a school bathroom, and under no tolerance she was suspended with the attackers for "participating" in her rape. The attackers were not convicted in court because the girl had been suspended also and the jury could not believe that she had been suspended for no reason. The whole defense of the attackers was that the girl had participated willingly and the suspension made that plausible. So don't believe it could never happen here, because I think it does more than you might think. A woman I attend church with was raped and the rapist was not only not convicted, he was given visitation to the female child she gave birth to. We have our own issues. I hope we don't get to self righteous about things like this. Even in the USA, it is a man's world. As the poor Martin family found out, we have our own problems with justice.

[Word Nerd]

"Under United Arab Emirates law, sex outside of marriage is illegal, and a rape conviction requires either a confession or four adult male witnesses to the attack."

 

Does a conviction *ever* happen there?

[SKL]

I get the impression that there was more to the story.  That said, I wonder why they didn't treat her like any other foreigner, i.e., not bother to apply the local law to her.  Maybe because she was employed by a local company.

 

I know women who have traveled to Dubai without incident.  I am not sure whether or not I would want to go there myself.  I don't think I'd take a job with a company based there, at least not without getting a lot of reassurance that I wouldn't have to behave like a conservative Muslim woman if I wasn't one.

 

I'm not blaming the victim, but just being practical.  That said, I may know more about foreign countries' customs than some other Western women.  I hope her appeal is processed quickly and that she is released to return home.

[Murphy101]

It does say her attacker was also convicted. So apparently convictions do happen there.

 

I don't think it is blaming the victim to say women who go to these countries need to understand they will not be afforded the same rights as in their home country. It is unreasonable to think western women just being there is going to change the laws of that country. That's very unrealistic. The company should have very clearly explained this to her and taken steps to endure she was protected. And yes, reputable companies absolutely do provide guards to female employees in these situations. Sometimes to western employees in general. I have several relatives and my dh who have traveled to countries where companies gave them "guides" to be sure they didn't have problems and stayed safe.

 

It sounds like the staff tried to clue her in that calling the police wasn't going to work in her favor. They were reluctant to call. Possibly bc she was viewed as a liar, but it's also possible it was bc they knew she didn't understand it would mean jail time for herself.

 

I'd be curious to know how her coworker ended up in her room. Not bc it would excuse rape, but bc it does beg the question of having a romantic relationship. Which if it came to light, would have been grounds for suspending/termination with many companies.

 

Rape has always been a very difficult thing to convict. Baring signs of brutality or a witness, it's very difficult bc it often comes down to he said she said. Sadly, even when it's obvious she was treated brutally, it's difficult to get convictions. Much less meaningful convictions. :(

 

It sounds like there were numerous risks taken in this woman's case. When talk all we want about how the risk shouldn't be there but that doesn't change that they exist. And ignoring that fact won't prevent women being raped either.

[marbel]

I'm not sure how to address all the different responses to my first post.    I'm not against women or women being successful. 

 

I didn't find your first post as speaking against women in general, or successful women.  But this is the sort of topic that lends itself to an emotional response rather than a logical one.   It's not blaming the victim.  It's just a fact that some countries have laws and standards that are incompatible with those that we in the west are used to.  It's maddening and I wish it weren't so.  But that doesn't change anything.  

[SKL]

Not excusing anything, but I learned from personal experience that in certain conservative cultures, if a woman hanging out with men drinks alcohol, she's "easy" or even "inviting" physical sexual attention.  It really doesn't matter if we in the USA agree with this or not.  She should have been educated in all of this cultural stuff so she could avoid sending the wrong message.  I'm not saying it's her fault.  I wasn't there and I have no idea whether she was informed of the social rules / laws or not.  I don't even know if her conviction for drinking alcohol was based on fact.  But these are the things women need to be very careful of when they travel.  You can talk all day about whether it's fair or not, but that won't change what happened to this woman, and what will happen to the next woman who isn't better prepared for life in that culture.

 

As another person mentioned, the good thing is that the guy was also found guilty and imprisoned.  So at least there is some deterrent to rape over there.

[Cosmos]

"Under United Arab Emirates law, sex outside of marriage is illegal, and a rape conviction requires either a confession or four adult male witnesses to the attack."

 

Does a conviction *ever* happen there?

 

I have wondered that as well when hearing about these laws.

 

It does say her attacker was also convicted. So apparently convictions do happen there.

 

He was convicted of extramarital sex, the same as the woman. If a rape conviction requires a confession or four witnesses, I can't imagine it happens very often at all.

[mom31257]

Obviously this is a horrible injustice, but none of us are going to be able to change these laws. All we can do is hope that if a woman has to work in a country that has these kinds of laws, she will take extra precautions to avoid situations where she could be accused of something she didn't do. She could only go out in groups, not drink so that she wouldn't lose the ability to make wise decisions, etc.

[Word Nerd]

It does say her attacker was also convicted. So apparently convictions do happen there.

 

.

I thought it was clear from my comment and the quote I posted that I was referring to a rape conviction--which this was not.

[FaithManor]

Not excusing anything, but I learned from personal experience that in certain conservative cultures, if a woman hanging out with men drinks alcohol, she's "easy" or even "inviting" physical sexual attention.  It really doesn't matter if we in the USA agree with this or not.  She should have been educated in all of this cultural stuff so she could avoid sending the wrong message.  I'm not saying it's her fault.  I wasn't there and I have no idea whether she was informed of the social rules / laws or not.  I don't even know if her conviction for drinking alcohol was based on fact.  But these are the things women need to be very careful of when they travel.  You can talk all day about whether it's fair or not, but that won't change what happened to this woman, and what will happen to the next woman who isn't better prepared for life in that culture.

 

As another person mentioned, the good thing is that the guy was also found guilty and imprisoned.  So at least there is some deterrent to rape over there.

My understanding, if I read it correctly, was that he was not convicted of rape which would have been a more substantial charge. He was convicted of the same "crime" she was...s*x outside of marriage.

[dirty ethel rackham]

I just want to be sick.  Now I have visions of donning traditional attire to mask my identity, banding together with other women and removing the offending organ of her rapist! 

[SKL]

My understanding, if I read it correctly, was that he was not convicted of rape which would have been a more substantial charge. He was convicted of the same "crime" she was...s*x outside of marriage.

 

I know, but a significant jail term is still a deterrant.

 

Lots of rapists in the US aren't convicted of "rape" either.

 

[UmMusa]

As a Muslim I want to say that the laws in many of the Gulf and Arab countries do not reflect the just laws of Islam.  Especially in Saudi Arabia and... don't get me started. 

 

Caffeelattee, I disagree with your sentiment and felt hurt by this comment:

 

My previous post is to point out that those Islamic countries already have the mind set that women are "evil" and bring men down.  I know we would like to believe that we can spread women's democratic rights to other countries .    We have been in a war for over decade trying to undo sharia law countries.

 

Those countries do not see women as "evil".  I was born in one and lived in one.  I have relatives and friends in many of the Arab countries (who are not Islamic countries by the way, they are either monarchies or states that do not run fully Islamically).  There is no prevailing sentiment that women are evil.  Sorry, but that is so cliché and is found in movies and from old stories.  That's noble of you to want to spread democratic rights to women, but Islam already did that many years ago.  It's a shame the leaders and countries do not share that democracy to everyone.  Islam gave the women a right to vote, right to property, right to marry without pressure, and certainly not to pay a dowry in order to be married.  Sharia law is just and fair, and it's not practiced, fully, in any country right now. 

 

As for the article, I feel like there's a lot we don't know.  The woman woke up in her hotel room to find a CO WORKER (Norweigan?not that it matters) attacking her.  How did HE get in the room?  It says she had been drinking.  Geee... nothing risky there.. too much alcohol and a male coworker in your hotel room?  Also, she was obviously able to get out of her room and into the lobby, so what did the coworker do? 

 

I get the sense there is a lot more to the story.  The laws in Dubai seem questionable, too.  No person should ever be punished for being attacked/assaulted.  Islam would NEVER condone that. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

As for the article, I feel like there's a lot we don't know.  The woman woke up in her hotel room to find a CO WORKER (Norweigan?not that it matters) attacking her.  How did HE get in the room?  It says she had been drinking.  Geee... nothing risky there.. too much alcohol and a male coworker in your hotel room?  Also, she was obviously able to get out of her room and into the lobby, so what did the coworker do? 

 

I get the sense there is a lot more to the story.  The laws in Dubai seem questionable, too.  No person should ever be punished for being attacked/assaulted.  Islam would NEVER condone that. 

 

 

Rape is the "unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse."  It doesn't matter if the victim let her attacker into the room.  It doesn't matter if the victim drank too much or any at all.  It doesn't matter if the victim is able to get away.  It doesn't even matter if there is more to the story.  Your post here is classic victim bashing.

[Caroline]

 

As for the article, I feel like there's a lot we don't know.  The woman woke up in her hotel room to find a CO WORKER (Norweigan?not that it matters) attacking her.  How did HE get in the room?  It says she had been drinking.  Geee... nothing risky there.. too much alcohol and a male coworker in your hotel room?  Also, she was obviously able to get out of her room and into the lobby, so what did the coworker do? 

 

I get the sense there is a lot more to the story.  The laws in Dubai seem questionable, too.  No person should ever be punished for being attacked/assaulted.  Islam would NEVER condone that. 

 

I have read through your post a bunch of times, and I cannot get over the feeling that you are blaming the victim and trying to make Norway look bad. She was able to get out of her room because he refrained from killing her, not because she wasn't assaulted. She worked in Qatar, and had since 2011, so no reason to believe her coworker was Norwegian. It never says that she drank too much. Even if she had, that is not a reason to be assaulted. 

[UmMusa]

Rape is the "unlawful compelling of a person through physical force or duress to have sexual intercourse."  It doesn't matter if the victim let her attacker into the room.  It doesn't matter if the victim drank too much or any at all.  It doesn't matter if the victim is able to get away.  It doesn't even matter if there is more to the story.  Your post here is classic victim bashing.

 

That was so not my intent.  I'm not victim bashing at all. I'm saying I think there is more to the story but it got spun this way.  I can't believe you're accusing me of that.

[UmMusa]

I have read through your post a bunch of times, and I cannot get over the feeling that you are blaming the victim and trying to make Norway look bad. She was able to get out of her room because he refrained from killing her, not because she wasn't assaulted. She worked in Qatar, and had since 2011, so no reason to believe her coworker was Norwegian. It never says that she drank too much. Even if she had, that is not a reason to be assaulted. 

 

 

Ok I guess more than one person misconstrued my words.  I'm totally not blaming the woman.  You and I don't know under what circumstances she got away from the room or anything else.  I know I don't trust the papers to give too much accuracy. 

 

My goal was to say that the government might have some messed up laws and not to equate those laws with Islam. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

Reporting rape in any country is not easy.  It is opening yourself to intense scrutiny, including medical exams, and even if there is a trial, to cross examination that can be brutal.  It is more common for women to not report rape than to report it.  The fact that a woman went running out to a public area to call for the police shows a lot of courage.  To continue to insist on calling the police when people are trying to discourage her ups the amount of courage that this woman showed.  I rather doubt that she could have been working there for any amount of time and not know the general lack of consideration for women and their opinions and yet she still insisted.  To me, that raises the level of courage that this woman even higher.

 

It doesn't matter the nationality of the man who raped her.  It should not matter the nationality of the country where she got raped.  But if the laws of the country do not define rape as I defined it up thread, and if the laws of the country do not protect the victim but protect the criminal by applying unrealistic and unjust standards for evidence then that country's laws are evil.

 

 Unfortunately, we do need to protect ourselves when we are travelling or working overseas by knowing the laws and how those laws are applied.  This does not just apply to Muslim countries by the way.  Our laws in the US are not always perfect or perfectly applied but there are some safeguards that work most of the time to protect the victim and to allow justice to prevail.  

[ChocolateReignRemix]

As a Muslim I want to say that the laws in many of the Gulf and Arab countries do not reflect the just laws of Islam. Especially in Saudi Arabia and... don't get me started.

 

Caffeelattee, I disagree with your sentiment and felt hurt by this comment:

 

Those countries do not see women as "evil". I was born in one and lived in one. I have relatives and friends in many of the Arab countries (who are not Islamic countries by the way, they are either monarchies or states that do not run fully Islamically). There is no prevailing sentiment that women are evil. Sorry, but that is so cliché and is found in movies and from old stories. That's noble of you to want to spread democratic rights to women, but Islam already did that many years ago. It's a shame the leaders and countries do not share that democracy to everyone. Islam gave the women a right to vote, right to property, right to marry without pressure, and certainly not to pay a dowry in order to be married. Sharia law is just and fair, and it's not practiced, fully, in any country right now.

 

As for the article, I feel like there's a lot we don't know. The woman woke up in her hotel room to find a CO WORKER (Norweigan?not that it matters) attacking her. How did HE get in the room? It says she had been drinking. Geee... nothing risky there.. too much alcohol and a male coworker in your hotel room? Also, she was obviously able to get out of her room and into the lobby, so what did the coworker do?

 

I get the sense there is a lot more to the story. The laws in Dubai seem questionable, too. No person should ever be punished for being attacked/assaulted. Islam would NEVER condone that.

Wow.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Ok I guess more than one person misconstrued my words. I'm totally not blaming the woman. You and I don't know under what circumstances she got away from the room or anything else. I know I don't trust the papers to give too much accuracy.

 

My goal was to say that the government might have some messed up laws and not to equate those laws with Islam.

When you start bringing up alcohol and how the coworker got in the room to question the story, then yes, you are trying to find ways to blame the victim.

 

And for the record, expecting newspapers to give a full detailed account of the circumstances behind the tape seems a bit silly when those details are not pertinent to the main thrust of the article. Of course, you also stated previously Sharia law is fair and just so I am not surprised to find you going out of way to blame the woman in this case.

[jennynd]

My company has big contract with UAE. And it is unwritten but general concense that woman will not travel to UAE. Sure it is not fair but it is not my country and it is not my law to change. And I understand that my company does that for our safety and I am ok with it.

 

UmMusa... So in your world, if a lady drink some alchole and invite a guy to the room, the guy has the right to rape the girl?

 

And when you say Islam gave women right to marry without pressure. It seems there is a big gap between what actually happened.

[FaithManor]

I know, but a significant jail term is still a deterrant.

 

Lots of rapists in the US aren't convicted of "rape" either.

 

Her attacker was sentenced to 13 months. She was sentenced to 16 months.

 

I would not consider his term to be significant. Maybe it is a deterrant, but that isn't much time so I have my doubts.

[SKL]

When you start bringing up alcohol and how the coworker got in the room to question the story, then yes, you are trying to find ways to blame the victim.

 

And for the record, expecting newspapers to give a full detailed account of the circumstances behind the tape seems a bit silly when those details are not pertinent to the main thrust of the article. Of course, you also stated previously Sharia law is fair and just so I am not surprised to find you going out of way to blame the woman in this case.

 

Not only responding to ChocolateReign here, but everyone who is attacking UmMusa.

 

UmMusa is a Muslim and I presume that she has better knowledge of Islam than those of us who are not.  That said, I've read a fair amount of Muslim literature including the Quran (many times), and I agree with UmMusa's main point.

 

I also think people are failing to put themselves in the place of the people born and raised in UAE and those who are responsible for adjudicating its laws.  The thing about the alcohol - that was part of what she was convicted of - apparently it was illegal for her (and him) to be drinking in the first place.  And like I said above, drinking alcohol with men in that country sends a completely different message than doing the same here would send.  As for how did the guy happen to be the room she was sleeping in, I wondered the same thing - that would send a clear message in many traditional countries.  As for the definition of rape, we don't know exactly what happened because he hasn't admitted rape, meaning there are obviously two versions to the story.  Presumably he is saying it was consensual.  Granted, since she reported it, it probably was not consensual, but that's how I see it from the US perspective - the US, where we now accept that drinking with a guy and then going to sleep with him in the same room don't mean the same things.  The US, where we include in "rape" any sexual touching that is not preceded by clearly articulated consent.  On that level we can say we're very civilized, and yet we can turn around and diss one of the largest world religions without a second thought.

 

There's a lesson to be learned here, and it's not a new lesson at all.  When in Rome, do as the Romans do.  Learn about the place before you go, and don't go if it isn't safe for women.  The victim in this case must have been misled or uninformed, which is very unfortunate.  Hopefully there will be better information provided to women considering traveling there in the future.

 

ETA:  I should probably restate here that I do believe it is strange that they did not let her off as they normally would for foreigners, and I hope she wins her appeal and is able to leave safely as soon as possible.

[Shahrazad]

Oh dear. Read the article the other day, saw the post here today and didn't have the time to respond nor did I want to see what kind of insults it devolved into but seeing the way the thread turned, I supposed it would be better that I did respond.
 

Sharia Law!  I guess she got lucky that they are more progressive she could of been stoned in other Muslim countries.  (sarcasm)    I think sadly she was not very informed about the laws.  I've never visited or plan to visit the country but have a read enough about Sharia regarding a rape "needing to be witness by several men" or the women wouldn't be believed.   I read the Koran and other Islamic stuff to better understand the whole 9/11 thing.  I think the 24 year old lady should of stayed home.  I hate for her ordeal but its not a "secret"  there are  laws against women in Islamic countries.   

Yeah, offensive and not based on fact. I don't think your understanding of sharia is based on what is actually in the Qur'an that you claim to have read. Additionally, many who are familiar with the laws in the UAE (including myself and many I know who live there) would not imagine that they'd actually prosecute a rape victim, especially given that they tend to turn a blind eye to extramarital sex particularly when it is amongst expats and almost never prosecute intoxication in Dubai since alcohol is not criminalized there the way it is in the other emirates.

 

"Under United Arab Emirates law, sex outside of marriage is illegal, and a rape conviction requires either a confession or four adult male witnesses to the attack."

Does a conviction *ever* happen there?

 

Just to clarify for those of you who continue to equate shariah and laws of specific countries that contain the bias of the lawmakers:

 

- In a case like this, if there isn't enough evidence to convict on rape, shariah still wouldn't allow you to prosecute the woman for adultery. Both parties are innocent until proven guilty.
- The reason many countries make it so difficult to prove rape (ie requiring confessions or a ton of witnesses) is that, as opposed to here where a rapist convicted on testimony might sit in prison for some years and possibly get parole, under actual Islamic law, the crime of rape would carry a death sentence so people need to have irrefutable proof. Many countries are incorporating dna and medical evidence in more too and some countries do lifelong imprisonment instead of execution.

Now, personally, I'm lost as to why they would charge her. It seems truly ridiculous and is made even more absurd that they wouldn't be thinking 'politically' about the international ramifications of charging a "possible" (in their eyes) rape victim who is a Western expat and will therefore be an international incident.

 

When you start bringing up alcohol and how the coworker got in the room to question the story, then yes, you are trying to find ways to blame the victim.

And for the record, expecting newspapers to give a full detailed account of the circumstances behind the tape seems a bit silly when those details are not pertinent to the main thrust of the article. Of course, you also stated previously Sharia law is fair and just so I am not surprised to find you going out of way to blame the woman in this case.

Ok, I have to say, I understand how everyone got this impression and why it was quite upsetting. I read through Um Musa's post and I was nodding my head and thinking 'I agree' until the last 2(?) paragraphs when it DID sound like victim blaming. HOWEVER, she has clarified multiple times that that was not at all what she meant. I think that she did not realize what it sounded like when she wrote it. I know Um Musa from elsewhere and she is a big advocate for women's rights in Islam and would NEVER blame the victim, if I didn't know that I'd probably think otherwise of the post, but I do believe she didn't mean this at all.

 

The one thing I was going to mention regarding the alcohol and the co-worker being in her room is that perhaps it was a case similar to a date rape case where there was some sort of relationship or something that would give witnesses the idea of a relationship but at some point she did not want to sleep with him and he forced himself on her and raped her. The reason that came to mind is that it is not uncommon for some people from other cultures to not understand the concept of date rape. I don't find that surprising at all given that surveys have shown a huge number of Americans still believe that it is OK for a man to force a woman to have sex with him if she invited him to her room or was making out with him on the bed and she refused to sleep with him. You and I know that it doesn't matter how far they went together or what she did, if she told him no, it was rape. However, like I said, while rape is a familiar idea in most cultures, in conservative Muslim cultures where dating is not a societal norm in itself and it would be almost unheard of for that situation to occur, the idea of date rape is not one that many people understand or are familiar with. Islam does not diffrentiate between how rape occurs. The act of forcing a woman to perform a sexual act of any sort, no matter the circumstances, is enough to warrant a punishment (if not proven in this life, then no doubt in the next).

Lastly, the point I thought that Um Musa was trying to make was that, in truth, we don't know the whole story and can only make judgments based on the info we have. I remember a case some years ago in one of the Gulf countries that was a big headliner about a rape victim being punished for adultery and being sentenced to lashes. I was so horrified by that, especially reading the news here, and did not understand how someone could possible do such a thing. I then read the Arabic papers (some of which were supposedly translated onto the English articles I first read) and the story painted a completely different picture (ie that the woman DID commit a crime and that she wasn't raped but made a false allegation when she was caught in the act of the crime. Both she and the other person involved confessed AND physical evidence supported that she had lied) that made more sense as to why they were taking the actions they were and this was corroborated by local sources in my own family as it was a high-profile case locally. In the end, international pressure caused the woman to be pardoned. I assume that the same will happen in this case (and hopefully the rapist may be brought up on some actual charges) as the woman is clearly innocent.

Shariah law IS fair. The way it is implemented in countries is NOT. Shariah law, to me, is the law laid out clearly in the Qur'an and ahadith. What people are doing in their own governments under the label of shariah is not the same thing. I find it unfortunate how, as much as people criticize other cultures and religions for oppressing their women, I often feel I am oppressed most by people who insist to put me in a box because I adhere to conservative Islam and believe in shariah. I'm also currently pursuing a Social Work degree to work with rape victims and battered women and am trying to volunteer as a rape crisis counselor. Believing in shariah is a large part of what has instilled a strong sense of social justice and the belief that not only are those things wrong, but that I have a personal responsibility to do what I can to stop it in my own community.

 

My company has big contract with UAE. And it is unwritten but general concense that woman will not travel to UAE. Sure it is not fair but it is not my country and it is not my law to change. And I understand that my company does that for our safety and I am ok with it.

UmMusa... So in your world, if a lady drink some alchole and invite a guy to the room, the guy has the right to rape the girl?

And when you say Islam gave women right to marry without pressure. It seems there is a big gap between what actually happened.

No. If a woman gets drunk and invites the guy to her room, that does not equal consent and he has no right to rape her. No man ever has the right to rape a woman. Ever.


Islam DID give women the right to marry without force. In Islam, forcing a girl to marry someone she doesn't want to is a big sin and if she does not consent to the marriage, the marriage is considered invalid, any sexual relationship is considered unlawful, and the children coming from such a marriage (that the woman was forced into and did not consent to) would be considered illegitimate. People may choose to exploit things for their personal gain and force women into marriages they do not agree to but they will have to answer to God for that and Islam is pretty clear on that matter.

 

[Dandelion]

What a perversion of justice.  Sickening. 

 

Many people in this thread have speculated as to why this woman "invited the guy to her room".  Where does it say that?  I've read four different articles about this rape now, and I have yet to find any mention that she invited him in, or that he was in her room with permission.  My assumption based on all the articles I've read is that he broke into the room.  Can someone point me to the reference where it says that he was in the room with her permission?

 

A question for our Muslim members: can you provide a link to an overview of Sharia law (preferably with the complete text, especially as it pertains to laws relating to women's rights)?  I've read a bit about Sharia law, including accessing Sharia law texts on what appeared to be Muslim websites.  What I've read so far, even from presumably pro-Sharia sources, seems to support the position that Sharia law discriminates against women.  However, in this thread it's been stated that it's not Sharia law that is the problem - it's the way it is implemented.  I would like to read the law for myself from a source that is deemed reliable (not in its entirety obviously, but I'd like to read the laws that pertain to cases like this and other women's rights issues).  Thanks in advance for anything you can direct me to. 

[SKL]

What a perversion of justice.  Sickening. 

 

Many people in this thread have speculated as to why this woman "invited the guy to her room".  Where does it say that?  I've read four different articles about this rape now, and I have yet to find any mention that she invited him in, or that he was in her room with permission.  My assumption based on all the articles I've read is that he broke into the room.  Can someone point me to the reference where it says that he was in the room with her permission?

 

That's why we're saying there may be more to the story.  Because the story I read did not mention how they happened to be in the same room where she was asleep.  Is there an article that states he broke in?  I don't even know that she was in her room at the time.  I don't feel comfortable making assumptions one way or the other.  It would be easy enough for her to say he broke in if that was the case.

 

[Jean in Newcastle]

In most modern first-world countries, it isn't a matter of "he said", "she said".  She can have her say in reporting the crime and in being interviewed by the police.  He can have his say (with or without a lawyer as per his choice) to have his say.  The rest is up to the evidence.  If there is enough evidence then the person accused of the crime is arrested and goes to trial.  If there isn't enough evidence then a lessor charge may be filed.  Or if there really isn't enough evidence then the case is dropped.  The problem with this situation is that according to the article, this didn't happen.  They both were arrested and charged for a lessor crime but the rape charge was not pursued - not because of lack of forensic evidence but because of a lack of four men to witness the act.  

 

I can tell you that my r*pist did not stop and choose a place where four witnesses happened to be hanging around.  So if that is part of Sharia law I have a huge problem right there.  Also - despite not even wanting to contemplate this, if there were four men hanging around, chances are that they would be participating in the act in a gang r*pe situation and wouldn't exactly be the people I would want to call as witnesses.  

 

Another problem is that there is nothing that suggests that her participation in extramarital s*x was voluntary in any sense.  So right there she was being punished for being r*ped because she "participated".  

[Shahrazad]

What a perversion of justice.  Sickening. 

 

Many people in this thread have speculated as to why this woman "invited the guy to her room".  Where does it say that?  I've read four different articles about this rape now, and I have yet to find any mention that she invited him in, or that he was in her room with permission.  My assumption based on all the articles I've read is that he broke into the room.  Can someone point me to the reference where it says that he was in the room with her permission?

 

A question for our Muslim members: can you provide a link to an overview of Sharia law (preferably with the complete text, especially as it pertains to laws relating to women's rights)?  I've read a bit about Sharia law, including accessing Sharia law texts on what appeared to be Muslim websites.  What I've read so far, even from presumably pro-Sharia sources, seems to support the position that Sharia law discriminates against women.  However, in this thread it's been stated that it's not Sharia law that is the problem - it's the way it is implemented.  I would like to read the law for myself from a source that is deemed reliable (not in its entirety obviously, but I'd like to read the laws that pertain to cases like this and other women's rights issues).  Thanks in advance for anything you can direct me to. 

 

Sure thing. It may get me a day or 2 to write up a good response and find a place that has direct sources (as I have a big paper to do tomorrow) but I will try to get some together (unless someone beats me to it).

 

In most modern first-world countries, it isn't a matter of "he said", "she said".  She can have her say in reporting the crime and in being interviewed by the police.  He can have his say (with or without a lawyer as per his choice) to have his say.  The rest is up to the evidence.  If there is enough evidence then the person accused of the crime is arrested and goes to trial.  If there isn't enough evidence then a lessor charge may be filed.  Or if there really isn't enough evidence then the case is dropped.  The problem with this situation is that according to the article, this didn't happen.  They both were arrested and charged for a lessor crime but the rape charge was not pursued - not because of lack of forensic evidence but because of a lack of four men to witness the act.  

 

I can tell you that my r*pist did not stop and choose a place where four witnesses happened to be hanging around.  So if that is part of Sharia law I have a huge problem right there.  Also - despite not even wanting to contemplate this, if there were four men hanging around, chances are that they would be participating in the act in a gang r*pe situation and wouldn't exactly be the people I would want to call as witnesses.  

 

Another problem is that there is nothing that suggests that her participation in extramarital s*x was voluntary in any sense.  So right there she was being punished for being r*ped because she "participated".  

I mentioned that *some* people interpret 4 witnesses OR a confession OR concrete evidence (an example of this would be an accusation of rape accompanied by DNA/forensic evidence and physical/medical evidence of rape) as being necessary to prosecute rape since rape is a capital offense in actual shariah law (and by capital, I don't mean lethal injection, but likely stoning the rapist. A few other options are given but stoning is probably the most pleasant of them). Other scholars have said simply the accusation of the woman is enough and that if she is not truthful then she will answer for it before her Lord. I tend to err on the former because, although I think it is well deserved in the case of rape and would like to see rapists prosecuted and do not want women to feel their words is not enough, there should still be some sort of burden of proof when you're talking about executing someone. In addition to the punishment (ie death), a rapist is required to make a financial settlement to the woman before it is carried out.

 

I don't understand why she is being prosecuted for participating either. Obviously that is not Islamic law. I'm not sure why, even according to Emirati law they are doing it, especially given how rarely they actually prosecute such things there, why on earth would they do that to a rape victim? I think that is why some people are questioning whether there is more to the story or if they are really just incompetent buffoons acting completely nonsensically. I would say that what I read was not clear regarding an investigation so we don't actually know whether or not they found evidence to support or exonerate. The article I read mentioned that she was examined at the hospital and everything so it seemed to start off like an investigation and go downhill from there. I'm sticking by my guess that it may have been what I mentioned above and the authorities just don't understand the concept of date-rape (for lack of a better word, rape under circumstances where the person might've originally thought things were going to be consensual and were turned down or asked to stop and went on to the rape the woman). She was also charged with perjury, which again seems weird. It appears they are trying to make it out as though she made a false allegation after consensual sex but even so, if you can't prove that she lied and you also can't prove she was raped, it makes no sense whatsoever to arrest her and prosecute her.

 

 

[Shahrazad]

This explains the actual story pretty well according to her:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/20/world/meast/uae-norway-rape-controversy/index.html

Essentially, she had a bit to drink at the bar and asked the male co-worker (who I think had also been drinking) to walk her to her hotel room as the hotel was large and she thought she might get lost. When they got to a door (she said it wasn't her room door but a different one) he yanked her inside by her purse. She then sat down and drank a bottle of water she had been sipping with the intention to excuse herself in a bit and say she felt fine. That is the last thing she remembers before she woke up to him assaulting her. When a hotel employee came for a wakeup call she ran down and asked for the authorities to be called. They took statements, insinuated that she just didn't enjoy the sex, and did a medical exam. Afterwords she was charged and, on the advice of her lawyer, withdrew the allegation of rape and said the sex was consensual (which I think caused the perjury charge to be added).

[Aelwydd]

I'm not surprised that this has turned into a focus on UAE's Islamic culture and legal system.  However, contrary to what SKL stated: "And like I said above, drinking alcohol with men in that country sends a completely different message than doing the same here would send," there isn't any real difference between how sexual predators in Muslim countries view women versus how they view them in Western countries or Asian countries, or whatever. 

 

Hello, Steubenville, anyone?  Do you really want to pontificate about how men see drunk women here versus elsewhere?  Here's an example, and here, and here, and here, too.  Give me 5 more minutes, and I can come up with probably 50 more cases of rape where women or girls either were drunk, or were accused of being drunk. 

 

As if this is an excuse for a man to force his penis into a woman or girl's body, without her premission, against her will, harming her, ejaculating into her, exposing her to the risk of diseases such as HIV, potentially compromising her fertility, and/or impregnating her.

 

Yes, it makes absolute sociological sense that a woman or girl who picks up a bottle is giving her consent for such a vulgar violation of her self.  It makes sense to many men in the U.S. and Canada, and it makes sense to many men living in Indonesia and in Africa, and it makes sense to many men living in Scandanavia and Europe, and it makese sense to many men living in the Middle East.

 

The only difference between these places is how much blame is assigned to the female, and if the punishment will be merely social censure (like in the case of Steubenville--many people condemn her because she got drunk, so therefore she shares responsibility for being raped), financial censure (well, she got HPV and can't have children, well she shouldn't have let herself go like that--what did she expect?), physical repurcussions (she's pregnant--she gets to either carry the child, and have all theramifications of that choice, or abort it--though this option is fast disappearing in many states)--or, in some places, like Dubai, legal/criminal repurcussions.

 

The logic behind them all is the same though.  She got herself into this mess, because she went and got drunk.

 

It boils down to this: in OUR society, as well as many others, an inebrieted woman constitutes a compromised woman--her judgment, her morals are relaxed.  Therefore, she's got no standing to refuse sex--after all, her "honor" is questionable anyway, because hey, she's drinking, isn't she? 

 

I'm so sick of this.  That woman was on a business trip, and if she was drinking alcohol, it's because someone in that country sells it.  I don't see any stories about them being prosecuted, do I? What about the rest of the people in her group--I know she and her rapist weren't the only ones drinking.  Heck, here at my workplace, several of the guys couldn't believe this happened in Dubai, because they are former contractors and ex-military that have gone there for one reason or another, and their description of it was--"Man, that place is the Vegas of the Middle East!!  There's tons of prostitutes everywhere and of course people get drunk!"

 

It has a reputation of a sophistocated, worldly city for a reason--drinking and illicit sex (and lots of other things, too, I'm sure) abound there.  So, when a woman goes over there, does nothing that 50 bajillion other people do there every damn day--has a drink with her coworker--and then gets raped, what should be the logical response to that?

 

Is it reasonable to expected her to be prosecuted for a statute that is more honored in the breach than observance, when a much more serious crime has happened?  And I'm not going to even touch the "illegal sex."  I don't care whether she withdrew the charge or not.  Her testimony is she woke up to being penetrated by a man without her consent.  That is rape.

 

I don't care what country a woman wanders into, she has an inherrent right to bodily integrity.  That's what I am teaching MY SON.  Look, son, here's a few important rules: look both ways before crossing the street, pay your taxes, oh and---DON'T RAPE ANYONE.   Rape being defined as any sexual act where the other party is unwlling or unable to give full, conscious consent, with unimpaired judgment.  I don't care if she's propped up naked in a sex chair, smelling of vodka and with chocolate syrup driveled all over her, and a post-it note on her forehead--"Go ahead--I like sleepy sex!" with a notarized signature. 

 

I don't care--because it's STILL RAPE, and it's STILL CRIMINAL, and if my boy ever did anything like that, there's no excuse, or rationale that could ever, ever erase the hurt and bitter disappointment I'd have in him.

 

It's simple -- Men and boys (and crazy ass middle school female teachers out there), "Don't rape!" 

[Sahamamama]

Summary

A 24 year old Norwegian woman living in Dubai was raped by a co-worker. When she reported the rape to the UAE authorities, she was questioned and had a medical exam. Then she was arrested for committing "extramarital sex." Her attacker was sentenced to 13 months, but the woman was sentenced to 16 months.

 

Here's what stood out to me from the article: "Under United Arab Emirates law, sex outside of marriage is illegal, and a rape conviction requires either a confession or four adult male witnesses to the attack." Who is going to confess? When will a woman be able to gather up four adult male witnesses?

 

 

[Sahamamama]

Obviously, the legal system in the country needs to change regarding these laws. That's apparent. And what happened to this girl is obviously appalling. But until those changes are made, women should probably steer clear of the area. I know I would. Just like I wouldn't just saunter into all areas of the city that I live in.... It has dangerous parts. It's not saying that women's jobs should be infringed upon and they can't travel...it's that they need to be informed and safe about where they travel to.

 

When I was a social worker, there were places where we had to go, but were not allowed to go without an accompanying police officer. That's just reality -- there are some places in the world (in the US, too) that are not safe, for men, women, or any one.

 

FWIW, I don't think I'd feel any "safer" in Dubai as a man, if things like this can happen with impunity to women.

 

Pretty sure I didn't miss the point. In a perfect world that would be great.... But most companies are out for the almighty dollar and if Dubai is a lucrative place, then unfortunately they probably will not cut ties with a company that's located there.

 

It's horrible, but there is evil in this world and it will just get worse. Evil happens to all groups....blacks, whites, men, women, Christian, Muslim.... In some places some groups are targeted more than others. When the law refuses to help you then you must take your safety into your own hands until the laws can be changed. You can't just waltz into a "danger zone" and declare the laws to be unfair while you are harmed. Protect yourself first, even if that means avoiding that particular area, and fight for change while you are safe.

 

:iagree: As a rape survivor, I agree -- there is evil in this world. A girl or woman who is raped is not responsible for being "in the wrong place at the wrong time." No, the evil is in the other person who does that evil act of violence. But there are places where either (1) the laws are good, but are not being enforced [e.g., when we went into neighborhoods that were overtly controlled by drugs/gangs], or (2) the laws are unjust in the first place and don't protect you [e.g., when a woman who is raped is arrested and charged with "extramarital sex"].

 

As a rape survivor, you can bet that I would never set foot in a country with laws that did not even begin to protect me as a woman. So, yeah, that rules out most of the Middle East, and certainly UAE. And I'm married to an Egyptian!

[Sahamamama]

. DP