Liz CA Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Don't remember if it was discussed when it happened. Disturbing on so many levels. http://www.nytimes.c...anted=all&_r=1 I wonder if their mothers are thinking what went wrong where? As the mother of a boy - now young man - I just hope I have taught him the value of a girl or woman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misty.warden Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I can see this thread going so bad so many ways not even a cupcake in a kilt made of vodka could save it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest inoubliable Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I can see this thread going so bad so many ways not even a cupcake in a kilt made of vodka could save it. A-yup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I can see this thread going so bad so many ways not even a cupcake in a kilt made of vodka could save it. Never ever doubt the power of a cupcake in a kilt made of vodka. Never. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted March 21, 2013 Author Share Posted March 21, 2013 Well, it will be up to us if it goes bad or not...the onus is on the poster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misty.warden Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Well, it will be up to us if it goes bad or not...the onus is on the poster. Why court disaster though? We can't even talk about crockpots without things turning ugly :blushing: Dandelion, can you use vodka as a substitute liquid in cupcakes? or frosting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JudoMom Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Why court disaster though? We can't even talk about crockpots without things turning ugly :blushing: Dandelion, can you use vodka as a substitute liquid in cupcakes? or frosting? Because this used to be a place where people could openly discuss ideas, even if they were hot topics. Why shut something down before it even gets a chance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Dandelion, can you use vodka as a substitute liquid in cupcakes? or frosting? I honestly don't see why not. Personally, I just eat store-bought cupcakes and do vodka shots on the side. I'm not big on baking. :tongue_smilie: OP - I have to go put the kids to bed, but I promise to be back with something a bit more substantial than discussing liquor and cupcakes. :p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jewellsmommy Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Call me optimistic or an idealist...I don't think this discussion has to be doomed to failure. However, I don't have a good answer for what went wrong. One thing for sure, there was catastrophic failure of character on the part of a lot of people there not just the boys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regentrude Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I am not even sure why a discussion of this topic would turn ugly - after all, what is possibly controversial about it? I would imagine we all agree that so many people behaved despicably, not just the two boys who were found guilty, but also all the bystanders with their cell phones, the girls who now threaten the victim, the friends who let the victim get this drunk ... (ETA: Lest my last remark be misconstrued: I am not blaming the girl for what happened! But friends should watch out for friends and not let them get into such a situation.) We can only work to instill in our sons AND daughters what is right and then hope they behave the way they were taught even in the face of peer pressure and a culture that promotes unhealthy attitudes. I do not think this can be the kind of divided debate that requires cupcakes and kilts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misty.warden Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I am not even sure why a discussion of this topic would turn ugly - after all, what is possibly controversial about it? I would imagine we all agree that so many people behaved despicably, not just the two boys who were found guilty, but also all the bystanders with their cell phones, the girls who now threaten the victim, the friends who let the victim get this drunk ... We can only work to instill in our sons AND daughters what is right and then hope they behave the way they were taught even in the face of peer pressure and a culture that promotes unhealthy attitudes. I do not think this can be the kind of divided debate that requires cupcakes and kilts. I wish I could be this optimistic, but I've seen the conversations about this case on other internet sites, an entire tumblr devoted to tweets saying abhorrent things, and this is a diverse community so I don't assume everyone agrees and sees things my way (that there isn't anything controversial about the decision). I hope we all are able to talk about things civily, however the evidence I've seen so far doesn't support it being more likely than a thread turning ugly due to disagreement and misunderstanding, sad as that is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aggieamy Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Call me optimistic or an idealist...I don't think this discussion has to be doomed to failure. However, I don't have a good answer for what went wrong. One thing for sure, there was catastrophic failure of character on the part of a lot of people there not just the boys. I think this sums it up so well. A catastrophic failure of character. So many lives and futures have been hurt by stupidity and not thinking through your actions. I am not even sure why a discussion of this topic would turn ugly - after all, what is possibly controversial about it? I would imagine we all agree that so many people behaved despicably, not just the two boys who were found guilty, but also all the bystanders with their cell phones, the girls who now threaten the victim, the friends who let the victim get this drunk ... (ETA: Lest my last remark be misconstrued: I am not blaming the girl for what happened! But friends should watch out for friends and not let them get into such a situation.) We can only work to instill in our sons AND daughters what is right and then hope they behave the way they were taught even in the face of peer pressure and a culture that promotes unhealthy attitudes. I do not think this can be the kind of divided debate that requires cupcakes and kilts. YES! I hope I can raise a child that can stand up and say "Stop. This isn't right." I would feel like I was a success if I could do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbmamaz Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I really loved this response http://www.polyamorousmisanthrope.com/2013/03/18/how-to-teach-your-sons-about-consent/ I talked a bit to my teen, and he was horrified and also understood that a drunk person cannot give consent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koerarmoca Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 We just moved from Steubenville in mid Feb. Things got real ugly for awhile, and it was all anyone could talk about. So very glad we left. My eldest dd was so mad we didn't let her go to Big Red. I narrowly missed being on the jury due to our move. Just an awful case all around! and just an FYI the state line between Steubenville OH and Weirton WV is about 3 min. and another 9 min to PA. its not that unheard of to travel between there is nothing in either place to do. Crime and drugs are insane partly why we left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I could see this going both ways, but I am trusting that the judge looked at all the facts/evidence (which I don't have) and made the right decision. This is one of the reasons I really hated that time of my life (high school) for the most part. People just being idiots in every imaginable way. Nobody involved here was blameless IMO. Some were naive for sure, but every one of them could have had a completely different outcome if s/he had not made a stupid decision at some point. And yes, it is scary, because you never know which day your own teen is going to be stupid and go against every good thing you taught him/her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted March 21, 2013 Author Share Posted March 21, 2013 YES! I hope I can raise a child that can stand up and say "Stop. This isn't right." I would feel like I was a success if I could do that. After I read the article, I was actually wondering if I had enough conversations with my (now) 21 year old. They get to be adults so fast and I feel I didn't cover everything in depth but how can you in 18 or 20 short years. I do believe and hope he would be someone who would step in and try to prevent such an atrocity. Fortunately, he had not only a mother who muddled through things but also a Dad, the influence of a very good youth pastor and several level-headed friends. I feel for everyone in this mess, the girl and her parents, the boys for their decisions and lifelong regrets and their parents for the horror, shame and failure they must be feeling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PachiSusan Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I can see this thread going so bad so many ways not even a cupcake in a kilt made of vodka could save it. I'm sorry but I think I laughed so hard I have a rib ache now. And I don't have a boy so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delaney Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 My problem with it was this line Mr. Mays pleading with the girl not to press charges because doing so would damage his football career — even as the girl grew angry that he seemed to care more about football than her welfare. I live in a town where footballs players stole a car and wrecked the night before the homecoming game. You know what happened? NOTHING on a school level and it was the TRAINER'S car! We have a gross football mentality here and sadly they are all so disillusioned because this is not an area that turns out pro players. It is the parents living vicariously through the kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danestress Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Because this used to be a place where people could openly discuss ideas, even if they were hot topics. Why shut something down before it even gets a chance? Exactly. I thought it was a good topic and something parents of teens really should be thinking about. I never have been one to embroil myself in controversial threads, but I have had all the inane cupcake/kilt stuff I can take for a while. I wish we could have a board where people just don't post on topics they don't want to post on, instead of sidelining them with mindless chatter. At the same time. i know people can post what they want on a public board. I guess I need a board break! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 That situation in Steubenville was a "perfect storm". There were so many things that went wrong leading up to (and during, and after) the assault, there are so many people to blame. So, so many people, from the people who sold alcohol to the minors, to the mom who let her daughter out partying across state lines, to the boys' parents who didn't teach them to behave properly, to the football culture/hero worship of the townfolk, etc. So, so many people, and it all coalesced into one, fateful night. It's a shame. There is a young girl who will be traumatized for the rest of her life by this. There are two otherwise promising young boys whose lives are forever tarnished by this. There is an entire community whose people will have a hard time overcoming this newly developed reputation. As a mom of three boys, I've thought about rape more than once. But before I tackle that minefield, I just want to point out one thing. I read an article in the past that quoted some data that suggested that it's not true that high school rapists are "otherwise promising young boys." There is some evidence that they actually continue their violent tendencies and in fact are fairly likely to become adult rapists. Years ago a groups of high school boys raped a mentally challenged girl with a broom handle, and one of them went on to rape again in college. So yes, I'm sure their parents are devastated, but I also think that they did not become rapists because the opportunity presented itself, and they are otherwise great kids. Far from it. And unfortunately, the kinds of traits that make a kid a good football player, namely aggression and impulsivity, might also make them more likely to approach social situations violently. As far as the topic, we've discussed it regularly here. I think it's very important for young men to think these things out ahead of time. No means no means no. Any consumption of substances makes it even more important to be a gentleman and to protect, not take advantage, of a young woman. Fortunately (usually) my boys are all very empathetic, and have not shown a tendency toward violence or aggression, but what concerns me is that they might be bystanders who say nothing or walk away. Not many kids have the moral strength to step in, alone, when an attack, verbal or physical, is happening. I pray mine might be, but I don't know. We've verbally rehearsed how that might go. But time to review it again I think! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I feel strongly that-- they may have had parents that TRIED to instill good values and the "value of women" and still turned out the way they did. I am not blaming the victim at all. But it's stupid to get that drunk, period. And her parents may have told her over and over to be careful and to be wise. As much as we'd want to, we can't control the choices of our kids. Firsthand experience of raising kids with excellent moral values and having them derail. Now, the actions of the adults? Unbelievably awful. I hope everyone wakes up in that town; that prison brings healing to those boys, and that that young lady finds peace thru really good counseling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuanitaL Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 We listened to the NPR segment on Monday while driving somewhere. https://soundcloud.com/onpointradio/justice-social-media-and-the At first I turned the station because I thought "they don't need to hear this" (boys are 15 and 16). Then I thought "yes they do", and I turned it right back. It made us all cringe quite a bit, but it's so much easier to listen to someone on the radio and discuss as we drive along than to initiate these kind of conversations out of the blue. A horrible and horrifying situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lavender's green Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I'll just add this to the list of things that I'm flabbergasted I'll have to think about some day (because my kids are a toddler and 4 months gestating, not because "what has the world come to!!!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paige Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 As a parent with a son and daughters, I have thought about this case too. I try very hard to teach my son to respect everyone's no in every situation. He will get in trouble if he's playing with his sisters and won't stop doing something when they say no. Sometimes they are laughing and I can see why he thinks they are not serious. I tell him it doesn't matter and he must stop immediately if they say no. If they did want to continue whatever game they were playing, they'll let him know after he stops. I tell my girls to listen to his no too, and I also tell them not to say no unless they mean it. They shouldn't weaken the word or build confusion in any of their friends. With alcohol, we haven't talked much about it. We are watching Guys and Dolls this week, however, and it has opened up a good opportunity. Marlon Brando tricks his love interest into drinking a lot of alcohol and she starts to behave very out of character. We talked about how wrong it was for him to trick her. We talked about how she should have been more careful about taking unknown drinks from people she doesn't know well. We talked about how she was lucky he decided to be a gentleman. I had forgotten about the drunk scene and hadn't intended to show them movies with drunks but it turned out to be a good thing. I try to teach them to not be bystanders to bullying and abuse. I hope it sticks. My DS is more assertive and I don't think he would stay silent but my girls are more timid. They have a hard time speaking up when the neighbor girl who is 2yrs younger is being stupid and telling them to do stupid things they know are wrong. I try to get them to speak up but they need to find their voices. In Steubenville, so many things went wrong. The parents absolutely have fault- how was there so little supervision at these parties? Were they out of town? The boys, of course, have fault. There are no excuses. I think they thought they weren't so bad since they didn't use their genitals. Someone in their lives should have given them a better education but I have no doubt they knew they were not acting appropriately. The bystanders have almost equal fault. One boy said he tried to tell them to stop and then left because he couldn't take it. Why didn't he call the cops? The girls who are tormenting her are disgusting. The cops and school officials did not act responsibly. Finally, the girl herself isn't at fault for what happened, but she absolutely is responsible for herself. She was so drunk she could have killed herself. She knew she was underage. She was lucky she woke up at all. For that matter, the boys are lucky she woke up. Instead of carting her around, they should have been worried about alcohol poisoning. She "acted dead?" What?? How did they know she wasn't going to be really dead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinder Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 What a horrible situation. I am so sorry for the girl and her family. As for the other kids, they might have been *taught* the value of other people but they made their own decisions that night and afterward. And they chose poorly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renthead Mommy Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 As a mom of three boys, I've thought about rape more than once. But before I tackle that minefield, I just want to point out one thing. I read an article in the past that quoted some data that suggested that it's not true that high school rapists are "otherwise promising young boys." There is some evidence that they actually continue their violent tendencies and in fact are fairly likely to become adult rapists. Years ago a groups of high school boys raped a mentally challenged girl with a broom handle, and one of them went on to rape again in college. So yes, I'm sure their parents are devastated, but I also think that they did not become rapists because the opportunity presented itself, and they are otherwise great kids. Far from it. And unfortunately, the kinds of traits that make a kid a good football player, namely aggression and impulsivity, might also make them more likely to approach social situations violently. This was my 400 person high school. They were in the class behind me. This case was so similar to that if was freaky. Yes a lot of guys left her in the basement with the main offenders. When it all came out people asked why did they leave her in the basement with the offender. Apparently no one thought it was a bad idea to leave her. She went to a different school, but played sports on the town teams and was very into sports. Like I said, 400 people in our high school. Most of these kids had known each other and her their entire school career. They knew she was very gullible. They knew she was desperate to be friends with anyone, but the golden boys of the football and baseball team, especially when she's told if she goes with then another one might be her boyfriend or some nonesense like that. When it came out people were pressured to help the guys, so as not to ruin their lives. I can't imagine what it would have been like if we had cellphone cameras back then. Our town has a long history of looking the other way for their football players. Families used to go back generations and there was a good old boy mentality where 'boys will be boys'. My own boyfriend got busted for speeding in an unregister, uninsured car. He was 15, no license (age is 17 in NJ). He got 10 community service. He did about 5 of it, the police department laughed about it and said don't worry about the rest of the hours. There was something the actress that plays Mary on Downton said about why the sisters are so horrible to each other. Something like "Three young women with everything they could want, but they are bored out of their minds." That was sort of the situation. We had our own cars. We had money. We had empty house. Liquor stores in Newark and East Orange would sell to us. We got caught with alcohol no one made a big deal about. "Just don't drive" was really all that was said. I think there were about 12 boys all together when she met up with her and someone invited her back to the house they going to that afternoon. The whole situation was so sad on so many levels, but it all started with no one thinking "why are you asking her back to someone's basement?" These boys on a normal day may have said hello back to her after she said hi first. Beyond that, they did not hang out. It's not possible that none of them didn't think it was odd that she invited back. But then to leave her there alone when most of them left. Again, how can you think that is the right thing to do? As for the one that went on to rape again in college? That never surprised me. It also wouldn't surprise me that these guys had also pushed the limits on other girls in high school. But sex among the popular was an accepted concept. I'd bet there were girls that got pushed farther than they wanted to, but they wouldn't consider it wrong. Just part of what goes on. Like I said, sad all the way around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Dup. Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I have always said that when you put a bunch of teens together with little supervision, bad things are bound to happen. Add alcohol in the mix, it's all over. Why is that so hard for adults to understand? That poor girl. I could relate somewhat to what she went through, I just hope she is able to heal from this and move on with her life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delaney Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Exactly. I thought it was a good topic and something parents of teens really should be thinking about. I never have been one to embroil myself in controversial threads, but I have had all the inane cupcake/kilt stuff I can take for a while. I wish we could have a board where people just don't post on topics they don't want to post on, instead of sidelining them with mindless chatter. At the same time. i know people can post what they want on a public board. I guess I need a board break! Agree!!! If I never hear about freakin kilts and cupcakes again it will be too soon. It's like this little land of happy where people go to try and find equality with others so they can all feel accepted. Hard to get through a thread when it gets all stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawna in Texas Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 The girl's choices that night are completely irrelevant. And I don't expect parents of teenage boys to remind them that if a girl is drunk it doesn't make her available for violation. We need to be raising children who will speak up when they witness something like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delaney Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 The girl's choices that night are completely irrelevant. And I don't expect parents of teenage boys to remind them that if a girl is drunk it doesn't make her available for violation. We need to be raising children who will speak up when they witness something like this. Absolutely. What these boys did and bragged/tweeted about was just disgusting. They knew full well what they were doing. The fact that the media even MENTIONED that they are football stars just makes me want to vomit. WHAT does that have to do with it but make football look even worse in light of all that has been covered up with the Penn St case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Absolutely. What these boys did and bragged/tweeted about was just disgusting. They knew full well what they were doing. The fact that the media even MENTIONED that they are football stars just makes me want to vomit. WHAT does that have to do with it but make football look even worse in light of all that has been covered up with the Penn St case. I think the mention of football is important. Somewhere in the back of their minds (or maybe even the front) these boys thought they would be protected because they were football players. Football is so important that players do get by with all sorts of crap. And people who go up against a football player, well, heaven help them. Have you read what other girls are saying about the vicitm? That she ruined the football team? Football is king, and the football players can do no wrong. That mentality has to change. ETA: It isn't just football. It is a lot of high school sports. And I am the mom of a high school athlete on a team that regularly wins their region and goes on to the state tournament. He could get by with a lot of crap. When he wears his game day t-shirt, he gets a lot of respect in that school. Not because he is taking 5 AP classes, but because he is the back-up goal keeper on the varsity soccer team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catherine Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I think the mention of football is important. Somewhere in the back of their minds (or maybe even the front) these boys thought they would be protected because they were football players. Football is so important that players do get by with all sorts of crap. And people who go up against a football player, well, heaven help them. Have you read what other girls are saying about the vicitm? That she ruined the football team? Football is king, and the football players can do no wrong. That mentality has to change. ETA: It isn't just football. It is a lot of high school sports. And I am the mom of a high school athlete on a team that regularly wins their region and goes on to the state tournament. He could get by with a lot of crap. When he wears his game day t-shirt, he gets a lot of respect in that school. Not because he is taking 5 AP classes, but because he is the back-up goal keeper on the varsity soccer team. The entire issue of sports and teen boys, or even younger boys, is SO important. I know boys for whom sports are the only place where they feel successful and competent. It's one reason why I'm ambivalent about the calls to eliminate football teams in the wake of disasters like Steubenville. Many of those boys may not be academic stars, they may not be competent musicians, but they do have one skill, and to take away their opportunity for success, because of the bad behavior of a few, seems wrong. Coaches and parents have a golden opportunity for mentoring and guidance with the players in their supervision. That is what is so incredibly disappointing and infuriating about cases like this, for me. It's the complete and total failure of the adults to grasp the mentoring opportunity that athletics gives them, and use it for good, rather than destructiveness. Rather than teach the players that the sport is their chance for glory, that they are so important that they are beyond the law and common decency, they should be showing them how the limelight gives them an important responsibility to reflect well on their school, their community and their parents. I don't completely fault the coaches, and the local culture, but it's part of the problem here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delaney Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Yeah. But in football, what are boys taught about girls? Girls don't play football. They wear cute outfits and jump up and down cheering for the boys. Yes. Boys are put on some sick pedestal when it comes to football. The whole "Look at me I am the quarterback dating the sexy cheerleader......" Barf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Start here: There's no excuse for anyone to be able to say they didn't know it was rape, that they didn't know it was wrong, that they didn't know it was against the law. If this is indeed the case (even if it was partially wishful thinking), these children, boys and girls -- the victms, the perpetrators, those complicit, and those now victim-blaming -- have been done a massive injustice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jen3kids Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I brought it up with my nearly 16 (yikes!) year old ds. He was offended that I thought I had to tell him it was wrong. I explained that perhaps the parents in Steubenville thought their boys knew better too. I explained that if he is ever in a situation where he sees a girl (or boy) in trouble to step in and get them somewhere safe. Even if it is someone he doesn't like, someone he doesn't know, someone who is saying yes but is obviously drunk/high, etc. I think he would, but peer pressure is a powerful thing. I'm going to show him the conversation from the link from above too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ktgrok Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I could see this going both ways, but I am trusting that the judge looked at all the facts/evidence (which I don't have) and made the right decision. This is one of the reasons I really hated that time of my life (high school) for the most part. People just being idiots in every imaginable way. Nobody involved here was blameless IMO. Some were naive for sure, but every one of them could have had a completely different outcome if s/he had not made a stupid decision at some point. And yes, it is scary, because you never know which day your own teen is going to be stupid and go against every good thing you taught him/her. The thing is, there is a huge difference between stupid and criminal. Between careless and assault. You can't, or at least shouldn't, put those in the same category. These boys didn't mistakenly hurt someone, they willfully did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I don't believe this was just a matter of "good kids that made a stupid mistake". It goes well beyond that. A book I'm reading right now touches on something that is very relevant to what happened in Steubenville. It talks about the evolution of character education in our society, and specifically within our schools. The author's premise is that we've traditionally used literature, history, and other means to teach kids the importance of character traits like honesty, respect, and how to stand up for what's right. He goes as far back as Plato and Aristotle to illustrate this point. But over the last 50 years or so, there has been a shift away from this type of explicit character education towards a "decision-making" model where we ask kids to decide what's right and wrong based on what "feels right" without helping them develop a proper foundation first. Note that he doesn't state that it's wrong to let people decide their own position on moral issues. His point (and I agree with him) is that we first need to help our kids develop a basic set of values before we present them with those decisions. The Steubenville incident illustrates perfectly what can happen when individuals lack a core understanding of right and wrong, and rely instead on what feels right in the moment. As the mother of a boy, it's important to me to raise my son to be a man of character who treats women (and everyone for that matter) with respect. In the past, I've focused on character education more in the context of day to day life, addressing things as they come up or discussing a book or situation together. Based on recent insights and discussions like this, I'm going to be much more intentional about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassenach Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 http://www.aholyexperience.com/2013/03/after-steubenville-what-our-sons-needs-to-know-about-manhood/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeninok Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I have been thinking a lot about this lately as my DS comes into his teenage years. He is at his core, empathetic to a fault, kind, and gentle. But he is also a middle class white male, being raised in a very confused society which passes on a very mixed bag of ideals, images, and in which a culture war is raging on several fronts. On one hand I have always tried to convey that women are equal, we are not weak delicate flowers that need protection and supervision from men, but on the other hand we teach that girls are not to be hit, they should give up their seats to them, protect them, cherish them, carry heavy things and do the manual labor. Dh and I have fairly classic gender roles in our household, simply because it is what works, and I firmly hold to the fact that I do not know how to work a lawnmower. :leaving: But we are equals on every front. I can hope that the way behavior is modeled to him will be the basis of his interactions with women, but I also know it isn't enough. There must be frank talks, difficult talks, role playing, and the firm stance that he can always count on us to remove not only him, but his friends from situations where he knows bad things are likely to happen. I just find it hard to personally balance my own feminist, bra burning, somewhat angry reactions to current events, with the need to not overdo it and end up with eyerolling and rebelling from a young male trying to find his own sense of power and place in the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeninok Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 We don't explicitly teach it, only that if someone older or much younger or whatever is standing, and you are not, then you should give up your seat. But the rest of my very Waspy family does in fact teach it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie12345 Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Man, I opened this believing it impossible to be controversial. Then I read the ideas that exist in some people's heads. Not enough cupcakes in the world to sooth my new impressions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbmamaz Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 my mom's 2nd husband was proud of the fact that his sons would pull back a chair for a woman at a restaurant, but he was abusive towards my mom . . . they dont seem to see the difference between formal manners and good behavior. i think that sort of manners supports stereotyped roles, thereby giving men permission to 'punish' women if they dont stay in their stereotypical roles . . . as opposed to true morality, actually being respectful and kind, not just following scripts of behavior. does that make any sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeninok Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 my mom's 2nd husband was proud of the fact that his sons would pull back a chair for a woman at a restaurant, but he was abusive towards my mom . . . they dont seem to see the difference between formal manners and good behavior. i think that sort of manners supports stereotyped roles, thereby giving men permission to 'punish' women if they dont stay in their stereotypical roles . . . as opposed to true morality, actually being respectful and kind, not just following scripts of behavior. does that make any sense? This is exactly what I was talking about, I didn't necessarily mean the chair thing as an important issue in and of it itself, rather that we so often teach those rather old fashioned values and manners without really adressing the modern issues of equality and changing gender roles. I have no problem with Chivalry, but only if one does it out of respect and kindness, not because women are the weaker or fairer sex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz CA Posted March 21, 2013 Author Share Posted March 21, 2013 http://www.aholyexpe...-about-manhood/ I've read this...and as usual Ann Voskamp says it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SKL Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 The thing is, there is a huge difference between stupid and criminal. Between careless and assault. You can't, or at least shouldn't, put those in the same category. These boys didn't mistakenly hurt someone, they willfully did. I'm not putting the actions in the same category. BUT it was also illegal for each and every one of those kids, male and female, to be drinking alcohol (unless their own parents were right there giving it to them). The whole argument is that the girl was too drunk to consent, yet wasn't everyone involved drinking? Why is only the girl's impaired judgment relevant? Remembering back, I'm sorry to say that there were plenty of times when girls gave the boys the impression that they were happy to be touched in that way. I realize as an adult that this probably goes back to all kinds of insecurities, perhaps a history of home abuse, whatever, but I personally do not think it's fair to expect teen boys (who are also drunk and impaired) to understand all that. (That said, as I stated before, I trust the judge who saw all the evidence to decide the boys' culpability.) This discussion IMO is about what we do to protect our kids, not so much whether the boys in this case were upstanding citizens. Prison or no prison, this scenario will play out again and again because both boys AND girls fail to make sensible choices. Parents need to tell their kids to NOT DRINK and not go to parties where drinking is going on. Why? Because this sort of thing *often* happens in those settings with teens. The fact that there is now a rape conviction and sentence does not change the fact that the victim was violated and publicly shamed. As a teen I never trusted people who would offer alcohol to an underage person. I would never put myself in that position but walk the other way. I hope my kids will do the same. Because there is no way I want them trusting their "friends" to watch out for them when they themselves have lost the capacity to do so. No way. Though I appreciate all this talk about "my kid should step in to help another person," the fact is that if my kid is acting sensibly, she is not there in the first place. I don't have boys and none of the men in my life would have done these things AFAIK, so it's not like I'm sticking up for scumbags. I'm just trying to be realistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Dup. Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I'm not putting the actions in the same category. BUT it was also illegal for each and every one of those kids, male and female, to be drinking alcohol (unless their own parents were right there giving it to them). The whole argument is that the girl was too drunk to consent, yet wasn't everyone involved drinking? Why is only the girl's impaired judgment relevant? Remembering back, I'm sorry to say that there were plenty of times when girls gave the boys the impression that they were happy to be touched in that way. I realize as an adult that this probably goes back to all kinds of insecurities, perhaps a history of home abuse, whatever, but I personally do not think it's fair to expect teen boys (who are also drunk and impaired) to understand all that. (That said, as I stated before, I trust the judge who saw all the evidence to decide the boys' culpability.) This discussion IMO is about what we do to protect our kids, not so much whether the boys in this case were upstanding citizens. Prison or no prison, this scenario will play out again and again because both boys AND girls fail to make sensible choices. Parents need to tell their kids to NOT DRINK and not go to parties where drinking is going on. Why? Because this sort of thing *often* happens in those settings with teens. The fact that there is now a rape conviction and sentence does not change the fact that the victim was violated and publicly shamed. As a teen I never trusted people who would offer alcohol to an underage person. I would never put myself in that position but walk the other way. I hope my kids will do the same. Because there is no way I want them trusting their "friends" to watch out for them when they themselves have lost the capacity to do so. No way. Though I appreciate all this talk about "my kid should step in to help another person," the fact is that if my kid is acting sensibly, she is not there in the first place. I don't have boys and none of the men in my life would have done these things AFAIK, so it's not like I'm sticking up for scumbags. I'm just trying to be realistic. Yep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeninok Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 The biggest issue is that a girl may give that impression, and then she may change her mind up to any point in the situation, and a woman or girl who is highly intoxicated can not give consent, no matter if she is 14 or 64. Her friends should have rallied around her, the other boys should have stood up for her, someone should have told someone in authority immediately. It is not just the actions of the boys who did the acts that is so appalling, but that we live in a culture where taking advantage of vulnerable people is so status quo, and women and girls are seen as lesser, as property, and as something to be controlled in order to be enjoyed that is the real problem. The fact that our news coverage focuses on the loss of the promise in these young mens lives rather than the victim who was not only sexually violated, but then humiliated, threatened, and outed by the national news is what makes me so very sick. Our culture much too often says things like if it is really rape a woman will not get pregnant, or that she was asking for it because she dressed a certain way, or it is essentially her fault because boys will be boys, so we should all just move along. We teach classes for women about how not to get raped, and the backlash against someone saying this is not a female problem, but rather a male one, also results in death threats and rape threats and all manner of vile behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeninok Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 Trigger and harsh adult content warning, this is a very well cited post, but it doesn't white wash any of it, and ya, could be super triggery. http://rantagainsttherandom.wordpress.com/2013/03/19/so-youre-tired-of-hearing-about-rape-culture/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.Dup. Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I basically agree SKL, but WHY put this on social media? Why even when they sobered up they thought it was ok? Because they are stupid teens with brains that are not properly functioning and fully mature. Because they are on the road to hell and have no sense of inner morals or guidelines. Both. I'm so glad we didn't have the social media when I was a teen that we have now. I can only imagine the horror that middle and high school kids go through because of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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