I have a difficult time understanding why they punish ...

[Luanne]

... the little 5 and 6 year olds for being 5 and 6 year olds. There was another article in the newspaper today about three kids who were suspended from school for "acts of violence". One of them made a lego gun at an afterschool program. He was 5. Another little girl blew bubbles at some children at the bus stop and said it was a gun. She was also 5. Another little boy pointed his finger like a gun and said "bang, bang". He was 6 and was suspended two weeks from school. They claim these children need to kept from being violent because of the man who shot the school children. It was a MAN who shot the children, not a 5 or 6 year old child. These children are just being children. What they are doing is entirely age appropriate. You never hear about an 8 year old, or a 13 year old doing this. Get a clue, people.

 

 

End of rant!

[Heatherwith4]

People are stupid.

[KrissiK]

Because they're idiots. Reason number 1,238 that I do not put my children in their care.

[TammyS]

Because it allows them to feel all self-righteous as if they were "breaking the cycle of violence"....without having to actually be effectual or utilize brain cells.

 

AKA, as PP said, people are stupid.

 

They are probably related to the moms on the playground who tell their kids not to run.

[SKL]

It's a lot easier to rein in a 5yo with a lego gun than to actually make a difference in the way dangerous mentally ill people are handled.

 

It bothers me on many levels. I think it's really unhealthy that they lock down my kids' school every morning at 8:30. As if a maniac with a gun couldn't bust in anyway if he wanted to.

 

Worst I heard was that one school was instructing teachers to not evacuate if they hear a fire alarm, because the alarm could be set off by a gunman. They were instructed instead to barricade the classroom door with desks if they hear a fire alarm, and evacuate only if and when they actually smell smoke.

 

Makes me think the country's mental health problem is a lot more widespread than we thought.

[SKL]

Oh, and this isn't new. When my kids were 4, in preschool, I got a note from the teacher telling me of a discipline problem. My dd had been pointing her finger at her "friends" and saying "psht! psht!" Oh, no! The teacher sounded genuinely horrified. Apparently she didn't notice that my kids learned this behavior AT SCHOOL where ALL little 4yo boys play guns! Ugh.

[BarbecueMom]

My kids were running around playing "pew-pew" with PVC pipes earlier. They got that from Mythbusters. They were also making homemade safety harnesses out of backpacks, and I'm not sure which is worse.

 

Funny side story, a few days ago I overheard my 4yo say to the 3yo, "I'm going to shoot you!" I went off to find them and explain that saying stuff like that wasn't appropriate and we don't shoot people, and as I rounded the corner, DS4 said, "Ok, here we go! Say cheese!" They were playing PHOTO shoot. With fake cameras made out of Imaginext dinosaur parts.

 

I could easily see some teacher or principal not really caring that he was referring to a completely non-violent type of "shoot" and reprimanding anyway.

 

[J-rap]

That is too weird. Are you sure there's not more to the story?

[Murmer]

Its called zero tolerance which means zero brain power used.

[Parrothead]

It's a lot easier to rein in a 5yo with a lego gun than to actually make a difference in the way dangerous mentally ill people are handled.

 

It bothers me on many levels. I think it's really unhealthy that they lock down my kids' school every morning at 8:30. As if a maniac with a gun couldn't bust in anyway if he wanted to.

 

Worst I heard was that one school was instructing teachers to not evacuate if they hear a fire alarm, because the alarm could be set off by a gunman. They were instructed instead to barricade the classroom door with desks if they hear a fire alarm, and evacuate only if and when they actually smell smoke.

 

Makes me think the country's mental health problem is a lot more widespread than we thought.

 

 

I wonder what the local fire department thinks of this.

[Neige]

Anyone follow the Free Range Kids blog? The author posts insane stories like this all the time. Drives me batty.

[Word Nerd]

That is too weird. Are you sure there's not more to the story?

 

 

Nope. There are many examples like this of idiotic suspensions and other disciplinary measures being applied because of zero-tolerance policies. He's a recent example: A second grader was suspended for throwing an imaginary grenade at an invisible box of evil.

[KrissiK]

Even here in my small town, my friend's son was suspended because a kid gave him a little leatherman thing on the playground. Yes, J should have turned it in, but he was only a third grader, he stuck it in his desk, forgot it in the mess and then on desk clean-up day it surfaced and he got busted. Two-day suspension and this kid is a good kid. Does his work' and then pulls out a book when he's done and the rest of the kids aren't. I was mad at my friend for disciplining him for the incident. I told her I would have taken him for a day out or something.

[LibraryLover]

It also seems that more & more parents have little tolerance for normal kid behavior. Many parents are not on-board with 'puppy' behavior. I have often been caught off -guard at hsing groups. My children are older, but I often witness very normal 'busy' play. Later, I hear from friends that some parents were upset by 'rough' play, or the issue of LEGO being made into 'weapons'.

 

So many segments of US society have seem to forgotten what normal, boisterous play looks like for young children.

 

In many ways, I understand. Our western culture has a level of violence that is impossible to understand.

[shanvan]

It also seems that more & more parents have little tolerance for normal kid behavior. Many parents are not on-board with 'puppy' behavior. I have often been caught off -guard at hsing groups. My children are older, but I often witness very normal 'busy' play. Later, I hear from friends that some parents were upset by 'rough' play, or the issue of LEGO being made into 'weapons'.

 

So many segments of US society have seem to forgotten what normal, boisterous play looks like for young children.

 

In many ways, I understand. Our western culture has a level of violence that is impossible to understand.

 

Interesting. That has not been my experience with hsing groups at all. My experiences were just the opposite with no one wanting to rein in out of control behavior and no one wanting to talk about rules and appropriate, respectful behavior to adults as well as other children. That would be too much like school. At one group tolerance extended to the point of actually allowing bullying to occur unchecked and no recourse at all for the kid being bullied.

 

ETA: Not that I'm saying the examples of discipline mentioned in above posts are appropriate.

[LibraryLover]

Interesting. That has not been my experience with hsing groups at all. My experiences were just the opposite with no one wanting to rein in out of control behavior and no one wanting to talk about rules and appropriate, respectful behavior to adults as well as other children. That would be too much like school. At one group tolerance extended to the point of actually allowing bullying to occur unchecked and no recourse at all for the kid being bullied.

 

ETA: Not that I'm saying the examples of discipline mentioned in above posts are appropriate.

 

Not sure where you live, but families I know are very worried about violence, and have often forbidden certain behaviors. I was in a playgroup that banned Freeze Tag, and the children couldn't say 'witches!".

 

We dropped out, but that playgroup is still popular.

 

We are lucky to have found a group who understands children & play, and understands that 'normal' children have intense imaginations.

 

FWIW, we don't do bullying. :)

[MrsBasil]

Nope. There are many examples like this of idiotic suspensions and other disciplinary measures being applied because of zero-tolerance policies. He's a recent example: A second grader was suspended for throwing an imaginary grenade at an invisible box of evil.

 

I followed this locally and the school came back later and said there were other reasons for his suspension, but either way I think the complete zero tolerance policy that particular school has is a bit much.

 

Then again, I live in an area where kids can't even wear a Peyton Manning jersey, so lots of schools have rules I find over the top.

[TranquilMind]

... the little 5 and 6 year olds for being 5 and 6 year olds. There was another article in the newspaper today about three kids who were suspended from school for "acts of violence". One of them made a lego gun at an afterschool program. He was 5. Another little girl blew bubbles at some children at the bus stop and said it was a gun. She was also 5. Another little boy pointed his finger like a gun and said "bang, bang". He was 6 and was suspended two weeks from school. They claim these children need to kept from being violent because of the man who shot the school children. It was a MAN who shot the children, not a 5 or 6 year old child. These children are just being children. What they are doing is entirely age appropriate. You never hear about an 8 year old, or a 13 year old doing this. Get a clue, people.

 

 

End of rant!

 

Because insanity rules government institutions today.

[pdalley]

Because zero tolerance has become zero common sense. Based on my dealing with the local school system I have come to the conclusion that those who can - teach. Those who cannot wind up in administration and do a lousy job of it. We only ever had one problem with a teacher when the boys were in school. It was the administrators that drove us out. It used to be here that you had to work many years to be in adminstration. Not the case now. Locally it has become the place to shuffle people they can't leave in a classroom.

 

Disclaimer: I am speaking about our local schools only when it comes to lousy administrators. However the lack of common sense in deciding these things is really starting to get noticeable everywhere.

[Kirch]

Because most people deal with things that are out of their control by clamping down on things that they *can* control. Makes them feel better, like they're doing something meaningful about it.

[LucyStoner]

Yet all too often these same schools with 'zero tolerance' policies tolerate to the extent of condoning actual violence in the form of bullying. The school that we pulled my son out of when he was the target severe, ongoing bullying was quite proud to be a zero tolerance, bully free zone. Um, sure.

[SKL]

Yet all too often these same schools with 'zero tolerance' policies tolerate to the extent of condoning actual violence in the form of bullying. The school that we pulled my son out of when he was the target severe, ongoing bullying was quite proud to be a zero tolerance, bully free zone. Um, sure.

 

 

Yep. A couple years ago my nephew got a 6-month suspension because he admitted having something in his hand when a fight started (instigated by another kid busting up his science fair project in science lab). Nephew had a stellar record and had never been in the least trouble before. The "weapon" in his hand was a little piece of soft material related to his science project, which had zero potential of hurting anyone. The other kid merely used his fists to blacken Nephew's eyes and so on. He was a repeat offender. The kid who used his fists got a few days' suspension to my nephew's 6 months. Zero tolerance indeed. The best part is that the school is so full of crime, they have police officers regularly stationed there (it's a middle school).

[jeninok]

My 11 year old spent all day yesterday dressed in fatigues, carrying an actual army backpack and canteen, a marshmallow gun, and at one point he and the other 10 year old had the little boys in a line marching to some kind of chant. This afternoon there was an intense nerf battle in the "woods"

 

I suppose it makes me a bad modern mom for not only allowing this but encouraging it, I served him his dinner in a metal pie pan.

 

He is actually now passed on the couch still wearing those coveted army pants and his olive green long sleeved shirt. I'm surprised he took the backpack off. I mean these kids are outside, playing hard, using their imaginations, being kids. Most importantly they are practicing being the "good guy" while also working off some of that tween angst and funky hormonal stuff.

 

(The clothes and packs/gear were given as gifts this weekend from DH's best friend who is active duty, and whom DS follows around with puppy dog eyes)

 

ETA: DS used to come home with scratches and bruises on his face, broken backpack straps from being yanked, and was so anxious about being bullied by not only kids, but also a teacher that he was making himself sick several nights a week. We talked to the school several times, and nothing was ever done, and the teachers saw the incidents on the playground without intervening.

 

Zero tolerance is a joke.

[LucyStoner]

Yep. A couple years ago my nephew got a 6-month suspension because he admitted having something in his hand when a fight started (instigated by another kid busting up his science fair project in science lab). Nephew had a stellar record and had never been in the least trouble before. The "weapon" in his hand was a little piece of soft material related to his science project, which had zero potential of hurting anyone. The other kid merely used his fists to blacken Nephew's eyes and so on. He was a repeat offender. The kid who used his fists got a few days' suspension to my nephew's 6 months. Zero tolerance indeed. The best part is that the school is so full of crime, they have police officers regularly stationed there (it's a middle school).

 

 

Classic. They tried to enforce the zero tolerance policy on my son for grabbing one the bullying students by his sweatshirt. This was after months of documented issues without him retaliating previously . The school district's own attorney reviewed the records and reversed the school's decision to suspend him almost immediately after. I was like, um thanks but no thanks. See ya! It was very close to the end of the year anyway. He's been home ever since. Apparently the bullies at that point did get a 3 day suspension.

 

We thought he had clinical anxiety. Turned out that it all but disappeared after he dropped school. His pediatrician became a strong supporter of having him homeschooled when those issues cleared up in the absence of school.

[jeninok]

Yes, the anxiety leveled dropped nearly over night. We still had a few issues here and there, but a year later he is happy, and meltdowns are few and far between.

[SKL]

Classic. They tried to enforce the zero tolerance policy on my son for grabbing one the the bullying student's sweatshirt. This was after months of documented issues without him retaliating previously . The district attorney reviewed the records and reversed the school's decision to suspend him. I was like, um thanks but no thanks. See ya! It was very close to the end of the year anyway. He's been home ever since. Apparently the bullies at that point did get a 3 day suspension.

 

We thought he had clinical anxiety. Turned out that it all but disappeared after he dropped school. His became a strong supporter of having him homeschooled when those issues cleared up in the absence of school.

 

 

My nephew had been accepted into the competitive high school program for gifted kids, but the 6-month suspension would have stretched into the fall and caused him to lose his place. Instead he'd have to go to an "alternative school," meaning the place they send all the screwups. For that reason, my brother and his wife hired a lawyer and appealed. A number of witnesses spoke on behalf of my nephew, from church folks to scout leader to past teachers. My brother demonstrated how ridiculous it was to call that little piece of soft material a "weapon" and how the "offense" didn't fit the definition of weapon violation in the discipline code. (It wasn't something he brought to school for the purpose of threatening or hurting anyone.) There were photos of the damage done by the other kid. Still it was difficult to get the school to back down from their "zero tolerance" stance. The suspension was finally shortened, but what if the family hadn't had the resources to appeal?

[Donna]

 

My nephew had been accepted into the competitive high school program for gifted kids, but the 6-month suspension would have stretched into the fall and caused him to lose his place. Instead he'd have to go to an "alternative school," meaning the place they send all the screwups. For that reason, my brother and his wife hired a lawyer and appealed. A number of witnesses spoke on behalf of my nephew, from church folks to scout leader to past teachers. My brother demonstrated how ridiculous it was to call that little piece of soft material a "weapon" and how the "offense" didn't fit the definition of weapon violation in the discipline code. (It wasn't something he brought to school for the purpose of threatening or hurting anyone.) There were photos of the damage done by the other kid. Still it was difficult to get the school to back down from their "zero tolerance" stance. The suspension was finally shortened, but what if the family hadn't had the resources to appeal?

 

 

The people hurt by zero tolerance policies are the good kids being bullied. My oldest ds was sent threatening texts by a bully he didn't even know personally (or know how the kid got his cell number). It was at the end of wrestling season and ds was getting ready to go to district championships (probably why the bully was picking on him...or the only reason we could come up with). We took ds's phone to the principal who basically told ds and dh even if the bully hit him first, unless he stood there are took it or curled up in a ball on the floor without hitting back, he'd be suspended, too. She said they couldn't prove the message came from the bully so couldn't do anything about it. She told ds to duck into a classroom if he saw the bully in school and hide. Dh did some detective work and found the kid on Facebook along with a message telling all his friends his new cell number, printed the page, and took that to the principal. The kid was suspended for 3 days. (The day he came back to school he urinated in a water bottle and dumped it over the head of another kid in the shower after gym so was suspended for another week.)

 

My other ds tried to walk away for a different bully who then proceeded to hit him and gave him a black eye. Ds did not want to get in trouble so did not defend himself then had to hear other kids teasing him because he didn't fight back. This bully kid found ds at his friend's house after school and started in on him again so ds fought him, got the better of him, and all the bullying and teasing stopped.

[lynn]

All I could think is these are "educated" people who took some type of children's development classes to get their degrees and they can't figure out what is age appropriate child's play?

[Faithr]

I get so tired of the way the word tolerance is bandied about these days. It usually means that whatever policy falls under that moniker has some quality of irony tied to it. Zero tolerance toward violence means the administration is able to wreak its own sort of oppressive violence on the young in their charge. I think the problem stems from the attitude the phrase zero tolerance engenders. How about changing it to 100% Common Sense. Then the line could be: "we at such at such a school take a 100% common sense approach to dealing with violence in our community." It would change everything! People would begin think! There wouldn't be a one size fits all solution, but a case by case response to dealing with each issue. Wouldn't that be wonderful?

[Luanne]

My 11 year old spent all day yesterday dressed in fatigues, carrying an actual army backpack and canteen, a marshmallow gun, and at one point he and the other 10 year old had the little boys in a line marching to some kind of chant. This afternoon there was an intense nerf battle in the "woods"

 

I suppose it makes me a bad modern mom for not only allowing this but encouraging it, I served him his dinner in a metal pie pan.

 

He is actually now passed on the couch still wearing those coveted army pants and his olive green long sleeved shirt. I'm surprised he took the backpack off. I mean these kids are outside, playing hard, using their imaginations, being kids. Most importantly they are practicing being the "good guy" while also working off some of that tween angst and funky hormonal stuff.

 

(The clothes and packs/gear were given as gifts this weekend from DH's best friend who is active duty, and whom DS follows around with puppy dog eyes)

 

ETA: DS used to come home with scratches and bruises on his face, broken backpack straps from being yanked, and was so anxious about being bullied by not only kids, but also a teacher that he was making himself sick several nights a week. We talked to the school several times, and nothing was ever done, and the teachers saw the incidents on the playground without intervening.

 

Zero tolerance is a joke.

 

 

 

It's a joke especially since imaginary play isn't allowed, but they allow children to be bullied all the time. Bullying in schools has been going on way too long. That is what they need to put a stop to, not 5 year olds having imaginations.

[Luanne]

Kind of a spin off of this ... this got me to thinking about the 5 year old boy who got a suspension for kissing a little girl on the cheek on the playground. They claimed he was sexually harassing her. Little boys and girls have kissed each other on the cheek, hugged, and such for as long as I can remember. It is just what little children do.

[Jeannie in NJ]

ok, I am still trying to figure out why freeze tag was banned.

[Hwin]

My nephew was suspended for a finger gun. I think he's closer to 9, but I didn't understand why a parent-teacher conference wouldn't be just as effective.

[TechWife]

ok, I am still trying to figure out why freeze tag was banned.

I think it was because the kids are "touching each other" & could be sexual harassment.

[TammyS]

My nephew was suspended for a finger gun. I think he's closer to 9, but I didn't understand why a parent-teacher conference wouldn't be just as effective.

 

I can't even see why a parent-teacher conference would be necessary. What does the teacher want me to do? Bring her some wine so she can chill the heck out? If I got called to the school over a 9 year old (or any age, really), making a finger gun....I would be like, "Let me get this straight...the kid made a finger-gun, pointed it at another kid, and said 'bang, you're dead'? Is that right?" There had better be a lot more to it than that, because I would tell her that I don't care, don't call me for something so non-event as that ever again, and here's a bill for my time. On second thoughts, don't pay the bill. Use the money to get yourself some therapy. :chillpill:

[teamturner]

I suspect the real hidden agenda is to make this generation of kids so freaked out about guns/weapons that when they become adults, guns rights can be stripped away with very little fight from the people.

[butterflymommy]

I've wondered this too. There are serious acts of violence and assault (often sexual) in the public school system (and sometimes private) in the upper grades and high school. Why on earth are they picking on 5 year olds? As other posters have said, it's easier to clamp down on an innocent 5 year old, than to intervene with troubled older kids in a meaningful way.

[TammyS]

The school district's own attorney reviewed the records and reversed the school's decision to suspend him almost immediately after.

 

You know you've gone round the loony bin when you need an attorney to figure out whether a kid needs to be suspended or not.

 

Discipline should not be that hard or complicated. If it is, someone's gone wacko.

[LibraryLover]

No Freeze, or any tag, for that particular playgroup because 'children could get hurt." If you're running around & trying to make fast contact, you might knock someone over.

 

No my rule. We got outta there.

[shanvan]

No Freeze, or any tag, for that particular playgroup because 'children could get hurt." If you're running around & trying to make fast contact, you might knock someone over.

 

No my rule. We got outta there.

 

Well, that would have been a real concern at the group I used to belong to b/c there were some boys who actually were violent and were tolerated. That would give them a perfect opportunity to slam into someone or hit and they would do what they always did, lie about it and say they were just playing the game. One boy commonly hit and punched as part of his 'play'. No way I'd allow my kids to play freeze tag with them. I assumed that might be why. But no one there would have banned it. They'd just let him go on hitting.

 

The people from your group need to come run the group we used to go to. Then they'd have reason for their concern.

 

I don't get the 'witches' thing.

[KrissiK]

No Freeze, or any tag, for that particular playgroup because 'children could get hurt." If you're running around & trying to make fast contact, you might knock someone over.

 

No my rule. We got outta there.

When I was a kid, there were merri-go-rounds at school. You remember those, right? Those horribly dangerous pieces of playground equipment. It wasn't at my school, but it was at a school where we had our church picnic. And I remember all the little kids would get on that merri-go-round and hold on tight and the big boys would get that thing going and we'd spin around so fast. And the thing was.... we all knew to hold on tight. We were all smart enough to figure that out. No one got hurt. And if you did get hurt you either.... held on tight the next time, or didn't do it again. With all these measures to protect kids, kids aren't learning how to protect themselves. They don't learn how to navigate life. They just go blithely through because when they were toddlers, all the sharp corners of their homes were padded and they couldn't possibly hurt themselves on anything, so they don't learn to avoid potentially hurtful situations.. Then they get to school, and it's the same thing. And then they grow up and think that nothing in life is going to hurt them or should hurt them and instead of learning to avoid things, or deal with danger smartly they expect the govt. to protect them from it. Good grief. It's pathetic.

[mom2scouts]

Our local newspaper had an article today about school safety. The superintendent of our schools said he wanted to ban all outdoor recess so that the kids would be safely locked inside the building all day. He was genuinely shocked that the parents didn't like the idea!

[lynn]

Our local newspaper had an article today about school safety. The superintendent of our schools said he wanted to ban all outdoor recess so that the kids would be safely locked inside the building all day. He was genuinely shocked that the parents didn't like the idea!

 

Wow, I have no words.

[Lilaclady]

Our local newspaper had an article today about school safety. The superintendent of our schools said he wanted to ban all outdoor recess so that the kids would be safely locked inside the building all day. He was genuinely shocked that the parents didn't like the idea!

 

Really this is so sad. Kids are not allowed to just be kids and play anymore, they are expected to sit at their desks for 6 hrs a day. This is ridiculous.

[Kirch]

Our local newspaper had an article today about school safety. The superintendent of our schools said he wanted to ban all outdoor recess so that the kids would be safely locked inside the building all day. He was genuinely shocked that the parents didn't like the idea!

 

You must live in a high-crime area, right? With lots of drive-by shootings and stuff? Please tell me that's the case, because I just don't think I want to live on this planet anymore otherwise. Absolutely insane.

[LibraryLover]

I don't get the 'witches' thing.

 

 

Witches are scary. They could have bad dreams.

 

I was also a member of a UU church where they discouraged children from dressing as witches...it was a stereotype. I could almost get on board with that...but I still thought it was something to discuss, not ban (which they did not do), as 'witches' are rampant in children's lit. Sometimes dressing as something scary helps to make it less so.

 

The 'discouragement' was right before the first Harry Potter book was released in the US. It became almost a moot point, as it was OK to dress as the HP characters.

[lea_lpz]

My dss got in trouble for playing super hereo games on the playground with other 8 year olds. I think it's all gone mad.

[LibraryLover]

My dss got in trouble for playing super hereo games on the playground with other 8 year olds. I think it's all gone mad.

 

 

 

That has been going on forever! I remember my now 40 year old sister being told by a neighbor that she could not play Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles with her children because it was too violent.

 

Of course, I also remember teachers planning all sort of curric around Ren artists. So, something good came of that era! lol

[misty.warden]

It also seems that more & more parents have little tolerance for normal kid behavior. Many parents are not on-board with 'puppy' behavior. I have often been caught off -guard at hsing groups. My children are older, but I often witness very normal 'busy' play. Later, I hear from friends that some parents were upset by 'rough' play, or the issue of LEGO being made into 'weapons'.

 

So many segments of US society have seem to forgotten what normal, boisterous play looks like for young children.

 

In many ways, I understand. Our western culture has a level of violence that is impossible to understand.

 

 

I think schools are the most visible example of this, but I've noticed it in parents and grandparents in my own community. My grandmother constantly asks if ds may have ADD because he spins in circles, has trouble with directions and stopping play, and throws fits about bedtime if the transition is too quick. He's not even 4. This is ridiculous. I think kids act out because their normal play is so stifled.