S/O: What constitutes middle class?

[Catwoman]

I have always avoided "income" threads for the very reason in one of the above posts: I've learned that I am an evil slumlord due to our income level alone.

 

I am, too. :glare:

 

You know, except for the part where we don't actually own an apartment building. Or rent anything to anyone.

 

But other than that, I'm totally an Evil Slumlord. :rolleyes:

[SKL]

The question is, can that "middle" do the same things that it used to do. It's pretty obvious that it can't. Hence the perception of decline.

 

It depends on what time period you compare to. I am one who watched the rise of consumerism among the middle class with an uncomfortable feeling in my stomach. Few families "need" a house that is 2x the size of the one I was brought up in - with my 5 siblings. Yet that became the norm, the expected. The whole "I deserve it just because I breathe." There's a woman who chats at The Little Gym and she often complains because her husband won't buy her a nicer suv/minivan to tote her kids around in. People used to laugh at me and call me "Mother Teresa" because I kept my car for 10 years among other things. The huge houses and cars are trappings of the middle class of only a brief time period. IMO it's too much and I never believed it was sustainable. Now if you go back a couple of decades and look at what the middle class expected in those days, you don't come back with the conclusion that "the middle class can't do the same things that it used to do."

[SKL]

If your name is on the building, you're rich. If your name is on your desk, you're middle class. If your name is on your shirt, you're poor.

 

Unless of course you're in pro sports. :)

[Catwoman]

It is part of my campaign of Mathematics and Doughnuts for all!!!

 

If you're going to campaign for something, I can't think of a better platform. :thumbup:

 

Unless you're running against the "Push Button, Get Bacon" party.

 

Then things could get ugly.

 

Tasty, but ugly. ;)

[DawnM]

This is actually what I was just going to say.

 

In 1950s, middle class meant you purchased a 1700 sq. ft. home with 3 bedrooms and 2 bathrooms and a small well kept yard. It might mean 2 cars, but typically it meant one car per family. Most homes also only had 1 television and that television lasted 20 years, or until the arrival of color TV!

 

Eating out wasn't nearly as prevalent, nor were lavish vacations.

 

It depends on what time period you compare to. I am one who watched the rise of consumerism among the middle class with an uncomfortable feeling in my stomach. Few families "need" a house that is 2x the size of the one I was brought up in - with my 5 siblings. Yet that became the norm, the expected. The whole "I deserve it just because I breathe." There's a woman who chats at The Little Gym and she often complains because her husband won't buy her a nicer suv/minivan to tote her kids around in. People used to laugh at me and call me "Mother Teresa" because I kept my car for 10 years among other things. The huge houses and cars are trappings of the middle class of only a brief time period. IMO it's too much and I never believed it was sustainable. Now if you go back a couple of decades and look at what the middle class expected in those days, you don't come back with the conclusion that "the middle class can't do the same things that it used to do."

[Crimson Wife]

I skipped to the end, but as my response is not serious (and totally ripped off a comedian) I feel this is appropriate.

 

If your name is on the building, you're rich. If your name is on your desk, you're middle class. If your name is on your shirt, you're poor.

 

Unless you've got a dorky boss who thinks that it "builds morale" to require everyone in the organization to wear custom polo shirts on Fridays :tongue_smilie: I suppose it did make me middle-class that my name was embroidered on the shirt rather than having to wear a nametag.

[Jane in NC]

Do you study topology? DH has always insisted that a coffee mug and a doughnut are the same thing in that field and I think of that when I see your posts.

 

Ding ding ding!! We have a winner!

 

I took a topology course in grad school but I am not a topologist. As I noted elsewhere, the cupcake silliness led me to defend the humble doughnut which I am doing in my mathematical way. ;)

[Crimson Wife]

It depends on what time period you compare to. I am one who watched the rise of consumerism among the middle class with an uncomfortable feeling in my stomach. Few families "need" a house that is 2x the size of the one I was brought up in - with my 5 siblings. Yet that became the norm, the expected. The whole "I deserve it just because I breathe." There's a woman who chats at The Little Gym and she often complains because her husband won't buy her a nicer suv/minivan to tote her kids around in. People used to laugh at me and call me "Mother Teresa" because I kept my car for 10 years among other things. The huge houses and cars are trappings of the middle class of only a brief time period. IMO it's too much and I never believed it was sustainable. Now if you go back a couple of decades and look at what the middle class expected in those days, you don't come back with the conclusion that "the middle class can't do the same things that it used to do."

 

My house is quite a bit smaller than the one in which I grew up, yet it costs twice as much in constant dollars.

 

My parents always had 2 cars and never kept any for 180k miles like ours has on. They tended to get a new one every 3 or 4 years to replace the older of their vehicles so that's a total of 6-8 years. We'll have had our one car a decade this coming spring.

 

My folks took us on vacations every year to places like Disney World or on Carnival cruises. We have taken exactly 2 vacations in the 14 years we've been married and they were both road trips (one down to San Diego and the other up the Pacific Coast to Vancouver).

 

My brothers and I did private music lessons, martial arts (my brothers), and community theater (me). We can't afford any of that for our kids.

 

It is absolutely true that the middle-class has far less disposable cash than it did two decades ago. We are fortunate that we can still afford the basics, unlike those on the rungs below us.

[elegantlion]

Most homes also only had 1 television and that television lasted 20 years, or until the arrival of color TV!

 

 

This is part of an issue, if not necessarily "the" issue. Consumer goods are not built to last. My washer/dryer have lasted 11 years, they are running well, whirlpool duets. A repairman stated since my was the first set produced they use German engineering and last. The newer models of the same brand use different components and don't last. BTW, the repairman was for my parents, who have been through 3 sets of W/D in the same time period (thankfully covered through a home warranty).

 

I spent two weeks reading reviews on basic drip coffee makers. When dh and I got married 20 years ago we got a Krups. It lasted ten years. Since then we've had to replace a pot every 1-2 years. I think one lasted 3. Our last one, a Cuisinart -name brand you would think, lasted 9 months. Reviews on most pots were abysmal. We drink coffee every day, so we use the pot. I just got a Melitta, thankfully we were able to return the Cuisinart and get our money back. But spending even 50.00 a year each on extra things you wouldn't normally buy/replace can add up.

 

Realistically most people want to buy the best quality available, but even brand names that before meant quality are suffering. Reviews on the new Krups were horrible.

 

Brand names don't mean long lasting anymore.

 

Quality is part of the issue dh is running into at work, he does maintenance and projects. The building is 30 years old and things are finally wearing out. The things that have been replaced/repaired in the last 10 years are not lasting either. The owners have a blind eye to the fact that some things, including large system like HVAC etc are not lasting like they used to. They also can't be repaired like they used to because of technology parts and lower quality. Dh is having a hard time getting his bosses to understand this and they're spending more to repair something than it costs to replace it. Sorry, not really related to middle class.

[SKL]

My house is quite a bit smaller than the one in which I grew up, yet it costs twice as much in constant dollars.

 

My parents always had 2 cars and never kept any for 180k miles like ours has on. They tended to get a new one every 3 or 4 years to replace the older of their vehicles so that's a total of 6-8 years. We'll have had our one car a decade this coming spring.

 

My folks took us on vacations every year to places like Disney World or on Carnival cruises. We have taken exactly 2 vacations in the 14 years we've been married and they were both road trips (one down to San Diego and the other up the Pacific Coast to Vancouver).

 

My brothers and I did private music lessons, martial arts (my brothers), and community theater (me). We can't afford any of that for our kids.

 

It is absolutely true that the middle-class has far less disposable cash than it did two decades ago. We are fortunate that we can still afford the basics, unlike those on the rungs below us.

 

Your experiences growing up were not typical of the middle class. When my family was middle class we went on zero vacations, bought mostly used cars which we kept until they died, and participated in zero extracurriculars that cost money. We had a nice old house (mortgaged) and enough Chevy cars to get everyone to work (2).

[KungFuPanda]

Unless you've got a dorky boss who thinks that it "builds morale" to require everyone in the organization to wear custom polo shirts on Fridays :tongue_smilie: I suppose it did make me middle-class that my name was embroidered on the shirt rather than having to wear a nametag.

 

I'm sorry to be the one to tell you, but you are poor on Fridays. The formula was clear!

 

 

Ding ding ding!! We have a winner!

 

I took a topology course in grad school but I am not a topologist. As I noted elsewhere, the cupcake silliness led me to defend the humble doughnut which I am doing in my mathematical way. ;)

 

THAT makes sense. I've only EVER seen a topologist use this. If you tell me you know Sam Nadler, I will fall over :-)

 

 

I'm actually ready to revert back to old-school middle class. The smaller living space makes sense. Our house is under 2000 sq feet, but we have plenty of room and a bedroom for each child. However, I could totally go smaller. I WISH we'd purchased a rancher instead of a colonial. We don't NEED a third bathroom. We don't NEED a LR AND a FR. We don't USE most of our small yard. A single level home on a smaller lot would be easier to clean, cheaper to maintain, and better for accessibility and aging in our home. Less home would be physically easier right now, which means less home would give us a BETTER quality of life.

[Lovedtodeath]

Us too. Unfortunately a house half the size of the one we live in would cause us to pay more, not less, on a house payment.

I'm actually ready to revert back to old-school middle class. The smaller living space makes sense. Our house is under 2000 sq feet, but we have plenty of room and a bedroom for each child. However, I could totally go smaller. I WISH we'd purchased a rancher instead of a colonial. We don't NEED a third bathroom. We don't NEED a LR AND a FR. We don't USE most of our small yard. A single level home on a smaller lot would be easier to clean, cheaper to maintain, and better for accessibility and aging in our home. Less home would be physically easier right now, which means less home would give us a BETTER quality of life.

[Catwoman]

Your experiences growing up were not typical of the middle class. When my family was middle class we went on zero vacations, bought mostly used cars which we kept until they died, and participated in zero extracurriculars that cost money. We had a nice old house (mortgaged) and enough Chevy cars to get everyone to work (2).

 

 

I think it all depends. It seems that all of us have different opinions of what constitutes "middle class." I can see that both you and CrimsonWife have different perceptions of middle class -- and my impression is that both would seem to fit into the general category, just at different levels.

 

In our family, middle class meant you drove a new Cadillac every year or so, spent your summers at the shore and also took some kind of "real" vacation, and if you were retired, you wintered at your home in Miami. These days, the brand of car may be pricier and the summer and winter locations may be different, but the idea is still pretty much the same. It still seems like middle class to me.

 

That's why these "class" labels are so irrelevant. Everyone has a different definition. And honestly, who really cares what "class" anyone is in? Either they're nice people or they're not, right?

[iwantsprinkles]

To me, this isn't about a specific number at all. Cost of living areas, variations in all sorts of things will be determining factors.

 

To me, it means you are able to afford to purchase a house at some point (even a small house or condo), feed your family, get health care of some sort, pay your bills, and have a little leftover for luxury things like gifts, a vacation (which could be as simple as camping in a $10/night park), and save some savings for retirement without a huge strain.

 

 

 

 

I'd say that's fairly acceptable.

[Mrs Mungo]

Here, many peoplle moved up from the slums in NYC and became homeowners when the grandparent who had moved out to the country died. They bought other older homes when they could, and became landlords. Property managers aren't big out here; the landlord more likely has a plumber on call and does the managing himself..that's how he got into the upper quintile, by saving on costs. Hotels don't exist out here, we're rural. There are some motels from the sixties that haven't fallen in, and yes they are inhabited by section 8 people and some on parole. Not so poor live in barns, and many will get together and split up an old farmhouse or trailer. If you're ever out this way, stop in and see what it's like to live in another area. Things vary from town to town. I know this stuff because several of my neighbors have shared how they weathered the recessions and became prosperous without trying out the stock markets. Landlording has been good to them; that's their profession once they retire from their state job.

 

I just don't get how this relates to your previous posts? I've lived in small towns, large towns, on both coasts and in Hawaii. My experiences are pretty varied. It is my experience that very few people are slumlords. Didn't you say that your family is in the top 20% for income? Are you saying that you are a slumlord? Not trying to play dumb. I'm genuinely not understanding what you're trying to convey. You said you were disagreeing with me. How?

Edited October 22, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[Jane in NC]

 

THAT makes sense. I've only EVER seen a topologist use this. If you tell me you know Sam Nadler, I will fall over :-)

 

Now you'll have to fill me in. Sam Nadler??

 

I'm actually ready to revert back to old-school middle class. The smaller living space makes sense. Our house is under 2000 sq feet, but we have plenty of room and a bedroom for each child.

 

We were having a conversation with the neighbors the other day not only about home sizes but changes within the home. My husband's father was a science professor and the family was raised in a neighborhood of professors and government workers. The modest bungalows of the neighborhood for the most part had one bathroom. Three, four, five kids, two parents and one bath--typical for his youth as well as mine in another area of the country. A bath and a half seemed to be sheer luxury.

 

I can't imagine most people with children living with a single bath unless they are in a high density area like NYC.

 

That said, the neighbors and I were having a hard time envisioning why some of the retirees who move to our area want to live in a 3000+ sqft house. For two people??

 

My point though is that the expectations of the middle class have changed. My parents could not afford music lessons for us. I made sure that my son had them. That sort of thing.

[Arcadia]

However, if you make the top 20% and live in the mid-West (unless it is Chicago) I am not sure how you aren't able to do the min. of what my definition is.

 

I am living all the way to the west. However besides making the top 20% income wise there are a few factors at work.

 

1) student loan debt - if you (and spouse) are carrying no debt, already it puts you ahead in being able to save alot more of your take home pay.

 

2) how much money was saved prior to marriage - from a purely financial perspective, the more money saved, the more the couple have for down payment of a house.

 

3) what kind of house the person want. I have a few friends who want single family homes. They can afford a condo with 20% down or a townhome with slightly less down but not a single family home here. But they would rather wait and so they are renters.

 

4) old wealth. My parents help out financially with my kids toys and private classes. That means we could put that amount into our rainy day savings instead.

[KungFuPanda]

Now you'll have to fill me in. Sam Nadler??

 

 

He's a topology professor. It's a small field so I was just wondering if you ran into him in the course of your studies. He's a real character.

 

 

 

Around here, you 'could' get very cheap housekeeping and gardening services for the cost of forgoing a few meals out. However, if your job security would be threatened by any type of cheap, cash-payment labor you are out of luck and have to pay a lot more. :glare:

[FaithManor]

I've looked at what might be considered a middle class budget for our COL. Now, this would be a spartan middle class, but definitely providing the basics. I think that is what middle class used to be...able to provide for all of the basic necessities.

 

I've taken into consideration rent on a 2 bedroom apartment (upstairs so heat rises in the winter making the utilities cheaper - garbage and water being the only utilities included...every apartment has electric heat and it's metered) in a safe place where the building receives regular maintenance, one used car that is paid off, insurance for that car (terrible costs in Michigan because of No Fault and the total corruption of both parties in state government that line their pockets equally with the generous campaign contributions from the insurance lobby and then vote against the people.every.single.time.), maintenance...spartan maintenance - oil changes, filters, and tires with a tiny bit put away for brake pads or some smaller repair, gas to the nearest city because full-time jobs are almost non-existent out here now (based on 22 mpg), health insurance contributions ($550.00 a month for many families if their employer is paying 50% and that's a big IF), a little bit for additional health costs such as prescriptions but not much, food...decent food but not high living by any stretch, $100.00 a month into an emergency savings fund, a $300.00 total for six days vacation to our closest State Park on the lake assuming one can borrow the camp equipment, added school costs for two kids - our district makes the parents provide toilet paper, all of the school supplies for the kids whose parents do not provide, kleenex, paper towels, hand sanitizer, you name it...

 

I did not budget haircuts which we all know most families need to provide for the males of the household even if the females let their hair grow, wear a ponytail, and trim their own. I budgeted a very, very piddly amount for clothing because at least we do have a few resale stores with decent clothes and they are charitable organizations so the prices are low plus once per month, you can take a grocery sack out for free.

 

No retirement savings. No savings for a downpayment on the house. No major car problems. No replacing a vehicle. No family member with meds that are costly and not covered by insurance. Only one co-pay per month to the doctor, dentist, or optometrist.

 

It did include eating out once per month and $2.00 a week for renting videos for the family entertainment night. I do think that families need to be able to have a fun time. It doesn't have to be expensive. But, it alleviates tension and helps parents feel like they are doing alright by their children. All work and no play is very bad for the mental as well as physical health of a person.

 

You get the picture.

 

It came to a NEED of $39,800.00 in gross pay. The median for our county and often representing two wage earners is $34,000.00 and at $34,000.00 one does not qualify for any kind of assistance in this state. Not a drop.

 

DD, as a medic, can earn that if she takes some overtime. Full time is 48 hrs. per week. So, she can do it if she puts in 60. She could support two children. Her job does have good health benefits. That is worth a lot!

 

Replacing a vehicle would hurt. Having that piddly bit of emergency savings drained would hurt, having a chronically ill child would be devestating. Note that it did not include childcare...this is assuming school age children who are old enough to stay home from school alone when sick or after school each day.

 

Add in Daycare, and the above family would hardly be able to afford that decent food, those school demands, or that $100.00 a month to the emergency fund.

 

The other interesting thing is that we have to talk about how one manages to get to the place of being able to make this money. In DD's case, it cost $1200.00 for EMT training and $5800.00 for paramedic school plus all of the commuting costs and then buying uniforms. We provided the car, the insurance, the gas money, the uniform money, and the tuition. So we put about $10,000.00 into that in order for her to be to the place now where she is a financially independent adult, paying for the rest of her college education herself, and having her own health insurance and contributing to a 401K with employer matching. However, many, many young people or even adults already in the workforce needing to retrain in order to find employment, would not have that money. Student loans are unavailable for many types of job training. You can make payments to the EMS company on a monthly basis so long as the balance is paid in full before you attempt licensure. If you still owe them money come test and clinical time, you can't sit the exams or get into the clinical tests. Additionally, the training is steep, an 80% or better in every subject area must be maintained at all times, and so the failure rate is about 50% for those that attempt to make it all the way through medic school.

 

Where does the $10,000.00 come from?

 

DD, as a single gal renting from grandma and grandpa, is in a great place. But, she knows it won't be so sweet once she's married, he's looking for his first post-college employment situation, and he has some rather large student loan payments that will start coming due six months after graduation. She's saving...big time...right now. She'll have a $15,000.00 nest egg when they begin life together and certainly that's a huge help, and we are giving her a car. However, many kids do not have parents that can give them $10,000.00 for school plus a car and grandparents that rent to the young adult for only $200.00 a month. Most do not have that kind of financial security backing them. He will eventually have a good income but his chosen career/field is the type where you work for peanuts the first two years before someone will take you on for a decent wage and benefits package.

 

With manufacturing gone, schools in lay off mode for the last decade and more to come, the county hasn't hired in years, etc...I think having the very modest, very frugal middle class lifestyle that I described initially, is almost a pipe dream for many families.

 

Faith

[lea1]

When I was growing up, my mom (divorced) worked in a very small, local grocery store and made probably no more than $12,000 or $13,000 a year. We (my sister, my mother and I) did not have any kind of health care and we never received any kind of government assistance, until she decided to quit renting and have a small house built and was able to get a low-interest government loan. That was the only government assistance she ever received. But we always had food on the table and clothes to wear, a television, a car, a telephone, a record player :), bicycles, a basketball goal above the one-car garage, and plenty of toys. I never remember wanting for anything of significance. I would guess that even back then (the 70's) we were considered to be living in poverty though.

 

Even though I went to a school that was really lacking academically, I was able to go to college (with some gov't assistance, scholarships and student loans) and get a good degree, get out and get good jobs over the years, work hard and eventually work my way up to a middle-management position, until I was eventually making just shy of $200K a year.

 

I then got married, quit my job and had kids so I don't make that now but, isn't that the classic American dream story?

 

Sorry to hijack. This thread just made me think of where I came from so thought I would share.

 

It also makes me think of how poverty is defined in our country compared to others. Big difference.

 

I think the middle class in our country has become quite large and it now includes the lower middle class, mid middle class and upper middle class. I also agree that you must take into account COL and not just income.

 

Oops. Break is over. Back to school.:tongue_smilie:

[Runningmom80]

I am living all the way to the west. However besides making the top 20% income wise there are a few factors at work.

 

1) student loan debt - if you (and spouse) are carrying no debt, already it puts you ahead in being able to save alot more of your take home pay.

 

2) how much money was saved prior to marriage - from a purely financial perspective, the more money saved, the more the couple have for down payment of a house.

 

3) what kind of house the person want. I have a few friends who want single family homes. They can afford a condo with 20% down or a townhome with slightly less down but not a single family home here. But they would rather wait and so they are renters.

 

4) old wealth. My parents help out financially with my kids toys and private classes. That means we could put that amount into our rainy day savings instead.

 

 

This is us,

1.) hefty student loan payments for each of us.

2.) 0 savings when we got married (I was still in college)

3.) at this point we need a modest sized house, we have 3 kids, and dh works from home.

4.) I'm from a lower class family, he is from a middle class. No trust funds or private schools for us. :)

 

I do think we are middle class, we aren't struggling to pay our bills, or put food on the table. Our biggest money problem is trying to decide if we should cut our DS's private lessons from two instruments to one. :lol: That does not seem lower class to me, but if the fact that we don't own our home makes it so, well, that's fine too. We are comfortable, whatever class this is. :)

[Just Kate]

My house is quite a bit smaller than the one in which I grew up, yet it costs twice as much in constant dollars.

 

My parents always had 2 cars and never kept any for 180k miles like ours has on. They tended to get a new one every 3 or 4 years to replace the older of their vehicles so that's a total of 6-8 years. We'll have had our one car a decade this coming spring.

 

My folks took us on vacations every year to places like Disney World or on Carnival cruises. We have taken exactly 2 vacations in the 14 years we've been married and they were both road trips (one down to San Diego and the other up the Pacific Coast to Vancouver).

 

My brothers and I did private music lessons, martial arts (my brothers), and community theater (me). We can't afford any of that for our kids.

 

It is absolutely true that the middle-class has far less disposable cash than it did two decades ago. We are fortunate that we can still afford the basics, unlike those on the rungs below us.

 

I guess it depends on your experience...I grew up in a much smaller home that I live in now. My parents did take us on vacations, but not every year. My brother and I were in limited extracurriculars, but nothing like what my kids are doing.

 

I grew up middle class. But it did look different than it does today (in my area, anyway).

[DawnM]

I wouldn't say just because you don't own a home you aren't middle class....although I will say from what you are describing, you WILL at some point be able to, even if it is after the student loans are paid off.

 

Dawn

 

This is us,

1.) hefty student loan payments for each of us.

2.) 0 savings when we got married (I was still in college)

3.) at this point we need a modest sized house, we have 3 kids, and dh works from home.

4.) I'm from a lower class family, he is from a middle class. No trust funds or private schools for us. :)

 

I do think we are middle class, we aren't struggling to pay our bills, or put food on the table. Our biggest money problem is trying to decide if we should cut our DS's private lessons from two instruments to one. :lol: That does not seem lower class to me, but if the fact that we don't own our home makes it so, well, that's fine too. We are comfortable, whatever class this is. :)

[Renee in NC]

When I was growing up, my mom (divorced) worked in a very small, local grocery store and made probably no more than $12,000 or $13,000 a year. We (my sister, my mother and I) did not have any kind of health care and we never received any kind of government assistance, until she decided to quit renting and have a small house built and was able to get a low-interest government loan. That was the only government assistance she ever received. But we always had food on the table and clothes to wear, a television, a car, a telephone, a record player :), bicycles, a basketball goal above the one-car garage, and plenty of toys. I never remember wanting for anything of significance. I would guess that even back then (the 70's) we were considered to be living in poverty though.

 

Even though I went to a school that was really lacking academically, I was able to go to college (with some gov't assistance, scholarships and student loans) and get a good degree, get out and get good jobs over the years, work hard and eventually work my way up to a middle-management position, until I was eventually making just shy of $200K a year.

 

I then got married, quit my job and had kids so I don't make that now but, isn't that the classic American dream story?

 

Sorry to hijack. This thread just made me think of where I came from so thought I would share.

 

That was in the 70s, and she made $12,000 or so a year. Minimum wage (which is what a grocery store pays now for non-union) is $15,000 a year IF you can get full-time hours. Many places FT is reserved for management only.

 

$12K a year adjusted for inflation is $46K - that is very eye opening.

 

In 1988, my mom took a job that had a base salary of $12K per year. We had just enough for rent, utilities, a car, and basic food (mostly pasta, tuna, rice, and frozen veggies.) That is equal to $24K today.

[FaithManor]

I would just like to state here and now, that my parents really struggled with their small business and I KNOW how much those $5.00 per week piano lessons plus books cost them. I KNOW my mother went without desperately needed new shoes some years or that my dad started having my mom cut his hair (thankfully, she turned out great at it after a few trial rounds, but those first cuts were not pretty) in order to save money, and that my grandparents paid my piano teacher a couple of times when my parents were totally strapped.

 

Thanks mom and dad! I can never, ever adequately express my gratitude for the sacrifices you made to keep that going for me. I know I never made the concert stage per se, but I do know my music brings you joy and I guess I have to settle for that and hope it was worth it to you.

 

My parents weren't the only ones that were doing without in order to make things better for their kids and my parents and their friends were considered "middle class" back then.

 

I am pretty certain that "middle class" 40 years ago and "middle class" now are probably defined very, very differently.

 

Faith

[Parrothead]

I can see your point, even though I don't think the OP started the thread for that reason.

 

I have always avoided "income" threads for the very reason in one of the above posts: I've learned that I am an evil slumlord due to our income level alone.

 

:001_huh:

Yeah, us too. And we don't even own a house. :glare:

[Parrothead]

I skipped to the end, but as my response is not serious (and totally ripped off a comedian) I feel this is appropriate.

 

If your name is on the building, you're rich. If your name is on your desk, you're middle class. If your name is on your shirt, you're poor.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dh's name is on his desk and on his shirt. And it seems we are slumlords to boot. :lol: No wonder I can't figure out where we fit.

[mommymilkies]

According to the link, we are lower middle class, without taking into consideration number in the family. We had zero savings and tons of student loans going into marriage. We now have a used Honda Odyssey, maxed credit card (99% groceries), and $75k small house in a great old neighborhood. We have a lot of "stuff", but it was almost all free or from Salvation Army. I make most things that would cost "more", like toys, doll houses, furniture, etc. We are extremely blessed to have hand me downs and gifts from family that clothe the kids, dh and I. Most of us have state insurance because through dh's work it is over 60% of our income. we do have co-pays and a monthly premium for having it. But we still can't afford to fix the hole in our ceiling or a toilet that is broken. Anything that I buy online I have to sell something else to get, or wait until tax season. But since we do pay for music lessons for 3 kids at ~$100-200 a month, I think lower middle class applies.

 

$150k here would definitely be upper class. By far!

Edited October 22, 2012 by mommymilkies

[Runningmom80]

The class discussion is interesting to me, but I certainly don't think class = self worth, I'm not sure where people are getting that from this thread. :confused:

[JenC3]

We are actually upper middle, but we certainly don't live that way, due both to priorities and student loan debt. I grew up blue collar, dh upper middle: college paid out of pocket, ski vacations, given cars, etc. His Dad retired at 53!

 

We give away a good amount of money. Our mortgage is 12% of our income, because we chose a house in a blue collar neighborhood. Our 5 yr old van is paid for and we recently bought a cheap 2 yr old Civic to replace our 14 yr old 2nd car and it will be paid for in a yr. We eat out, but not expensive restaurants. We do have a guy mow and trim our property because he is a friend and does a great job in a quarter of the time it would take dh and it's cheap. We buy clothes at consignment and thrift. We only own one TV and do have cable recently for football season:) Our kids do not have electronics and gaming systems and all of our furniture has been free hand me downs or purchased used except our sofas and mattresses.

 

We do vacation and we do spend a good amount on lessons and field trips for the kids. We have a pool which is a money suck. We do have iphones, mine is the original though and I'm not upgrading until it dies. We do have several computers, but dh needs those for work. I have the original ipad for school and entertainment.

 

We garden and keep bees and my dh brews his own beer. We don't live lavishly, but I don't worry about bills and when we need to repair something we usually can fairly quickly.

 

My idea of upper middle is not us. We are comfortable for sure and I feel VERY BLESSED. The kids and I talk very often and seriously about those who have little and what we can do to help. Some friends of our made 18k for the past 2 yrs and they are a family of 6.

 

I think of upper middle as:

-designer clothes and spa treatments

-multi expensive vacas

-McMansions

-luxury cars

-college without debt or strain to family budget

-society events

-no retirement concerns

 

WAIT that's rich, right? So what is upper middle these days? Middle class seems so hard to define.

[Bluegoat]

I think the idea of "middle class" is always going to be inexact. It can be useful though if we keep that in mind. I would say it is really useful more at the level of population rather than trying to figure out if any individual family fits the profile.

 

I think that probably what is most important to consider is whether there is a large group of citizens who are financially stable, paying for their needs in the present and able to save for needs in the future, and probably pay for some wants as well.

 

THat kind of stable group of citizens make for a fairly stable economy and society. They are, to a certian degree, in charge of their own destiny, they form the backbone of communities because they see themselves growing old there and their children living there in the future, they have some money to potentially save and invest in luxury products or to start a new business venture.

 

Whether they choose to rent or own isn't necessarily an issue, but being able to own homes, or run a business, and things like that is important because it tends to imply rootedness in the population at large.

 

I think there are some interesting things we can look at in the modern context compared to the past. If we go back toward the beginning of the 20th century and earlier, a large proportion of the "middle class" would have been small business owners. The working class would tend to be those who worked for them (though tradesmen could overlap in a way that had social significance, working in a trade and owning a business.) I think that relates to a basic difference - the business owner created and managed and owned his own job and so succeeded or failed to a large degree by his own wits and work. Ownership here too tends to imply rootedness in the community.

 

This is impacted too by increasing costs for things like homes - having a mortgage or a longer mortgage doesn't have the security of owning outright.

 

The workers who were employees were much more dependent, whether on a small business owner or a large company of some kind. The success of their job depended on the employer as much as themselves, they were more likely to have to move for employment.

 

I think this difference is really important in why a strong middle class has been seen as important for social and economic health.

 

In more modern times though, we've transitioned to a model where most people are employees, and this has increased over the last number of generations. That tends to make many people less rooted in a particular community or even skill-set - they are dependent on the employer and are more likely to have to do things like move for work or for cheaper housing.

 

We have various social programs now that I think are meant to compensate for that, employment insurance, social security, pensions and the like. The idea being that we (who, someone) decided an economy based on many employees and few business owners was a good thing if we could off-set that by putting in these other kinds of stabilizers to ensure a stable middle class that can provide social stability and drive the economy.

 

So I think that the issue of social programs are an important part of the question even for the middle class.

 

And then there is the issue of debt. If you are in debt, are you middle class if you are living in a middle class way? I think this has actually become a major problem for us, because debt means that stability we need is even more tenuous. But, we can't continue to grow the economy unless people keep increasing their standard of living, and so debt is systematically encouraged.

 

And the economy is structured so that if it doesn't grow, it will collapse.

 

I think we've really got ourselves in a bad situation.

[lea1]

That was in the 70s, and she made $12,000 or so a year. Minimum wage (which is what a grocery store pays now for non-union) is $15,000 a year IF you can get full-time hours. Many places FT is reserved for management only.

 

$12K a year adjusted for inflation is $46K - that is very eye opening.

 

In 1988, my mom took a job that had a base salary of $12K per year. We had just enough for rent, utilities, a car, and basic food (mostly pasta, tuna, rice, and frozen veggies.) That is equal to $24K today.

 

My apologies, as I misstated this a bit. She made around 12K or 13K when she retired 10 years ago. She never made more than minimum wage so whatever that was back in the 70's.

[Scarlett]

I didn't read all of the posts but wanted to say that the OPs list is spot on to me....that is a comfortable life.

 

I think what happens though is that people forget about priorities...for instance they think they need a certain education/car/house/engagement ring/wedding/honeymoon/vacations/education for their children/ and the list goes on. VERY FEW people can have all of that be from a middle class price point. In other words, you might have a middle class income and be able to afford a nice home, but you decide to drive paid for cars and skip private school for your kids. Or some people live in a very inexpensive home and spend their money traveling.

 

Few of us can 'have it all'. I think that is what many people forget and why so many people are living beyond their means.

[Lovedtodeath]

That was very insightful Scarlett. Well said.

[Crimson Wife]

Your experiences growing up were not typical of the middle class. When my family was middle class we went on zero vacations, bought mostly used cars which we kept until they died, and participated in zero extracurriculars that cost money. We had a nice old house (mortgaged) and enough Chevy cars to get everyone to work (2).

 

Yes, I was most certainly did grow up middle-class. The rich kids' families drove luxury vehicles, lived in McMansions, often had a summer place on Cape Cod and/or a condo at some ski resort, wore designer clothes, vacationed at Club Med (back when that was considered a "cool" thing), did expensive sports like figure skating or dressage, etc. My folks didn't have that kind of money. But they still had a lot more disposable cash than middle-class families like my own today do.

[hcrocker]

Well, you are right about that. When we left Los Angeles we realized we either needed to stay in our house forever, or move out of CA.

 

Part of that was because of taxes. Taxes there are based on your PURCHASE PRICE. So, our taxes were still quite manageable. However, if we were to sell and buy a different house, our taxes would have gotten too high.

 

At that time we opted to sell, take the profits, and move.

 

Dawn

It's that way for us too. We bought our house before the real estate boom, and our town has significantly gentrified in the past 15 years. We could never afford to live here if we were first-time buyers. We bought our house for less than half of what it would sell for today.

 

I think middle class is both a state of mind and a financial reality, and it does depend where you live, how many kids you have, etc. It's also things like extracurricular activities - town-sponsored sports vs. private lessons, etc. We are pretty comfortable, but it took a long time for us to escape the paycheck-to-paycheck thing. DH is self-employed, and his first few years in business were pretty lean. Back then we shared a car, no cell phone, no cable, no dining out. Now that he's established, we are financially middle class. Even when we were broke, we still felt like middle class people, though, because we were young, childless, and working toward bigger things. (Ahh, to be young and optimistic like that. How wonderful!)

[PeacefulChaos]

Thought I'd chime in, though it isn't necessarily pertinent to the discussion at this moment, with what my own personal definition of middle class would be. Maybe not even 'middle class' - but where I'd like to be, personally - and we're presently lower middle/working class I suppose?

-To me, it would involve not getting government assistance BUT being able to afford insurance - there is a gap between the two, and I don't even know what to call that. That is the level I really don't want to be in.

-Being able to purchase a home they can be comfortable in. Not a luxurious home, but a home where they have the space they need, both inside and out (whether that be their own yard or nearby parks, etc). Ideally, for me, there would be 4 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms, living room, eat in kitchen, and dining room (which I plan to use as our school room as long as our kids are school age). And a basement that can be finished later, by us (DH is a skilled carpenter and FIL is a contractor - building a house is potentially cheaper for us than buying one that has already been built).

-Have the ability to pay off anything that they can't pay for up front in a timely manner. (If a car needs fixed, etc, the best thing would be to have an emergency savings fund. The next best thing would be the ability to pay for it in just a matter of a month or two.)

-Savings. Savings, savings, savings.

-Retirement, however that works for them.

-Vacations - not necessarily big ones, not necessarily expensive ones. Just the ability to do it, even if saving extra for a more expensive vacation is required.

Other than that, it's all sort of a gray area to me. These things are what I think of because they are what I want for us personally. Sigh.

All these threads are depressing me :lol: ... It just makes me look at where we are and where I'd like to be and try to figure out how the heck to get there! :(

 

ETA: I grew up what I consider to be upper middle class, especially in my teenage years. Just 2 adults and 1 child, regular, 2 week vacations every year, plus weekends away to visit family, eating out 3-4x/wk (just 1 adult 1 teenager, usually), plenty of clothes shopping and not really wanting for anything. We were still bargain shoppers, didn't pay a ton for clothes or anything like that - always went straight to the clearance racks. :) We had a modest house, 1300 sf upstairs and a finished basement - 4 bedroom, 3 bathroom. My grandparents have maintained this way of living, have excellent credit, and do what a PP mentioned above - pay for things with a CC and pay it off at the end of the month. They are actually an EXCELLENT role model for me financially... though there was a transition period when we first got married for me - I was used to living relatively well, and it took awhile for it to sink in that I couldn't go out to eat all the time (or order pizza), or just go buy a new pair of pants because I wanted to. I still struggle with it a little bit, but have reigned it in BIG TIME. :)

Edited October 22, 2012 by PeacefulChaos

[TranquilMind]

Whatever the case, I just checked out the links in this thread, and was quite surprised that one article defined "upper class" as being an income level of $150,000+ per year. That seems ridiculously low to me. I always thought that was somewhere in the middle class range.

 

Right. Way too low. This would be barely getting by in some expensive areas.

[Beetkvass]

This is part of an issue, if not necessarily "the" issue. Consumer goods are not built to last. My washer/dryer have lasted 11 years, they are running well, whirlpool duets. A repairman stated since my was the first set produced they use German engineering and last. The newer models of the same brand use different components and don't last. BTW, the repairman was for my parents, who have been through 3 sets of W/D in the same time period (thankfully covered through a home warranty).

 

I spent two weeks reading reviews on basic drip coffee makers. When dh and I got married 20 years ago we got a Krups. It lasted ten years. Since then we've had to replace a pot every 1-2 years. I think one lasted 3. Our last one, a Cuisinart -name brand you would think, lasted 9 months. Reviews on most pots were abysmal. We drink coffee every day, so we use the pot. I just got a Melitta, thankfully we were able to return the Cuisinart and get our money back. But spending even 50.00 a year each on extra things you wouldn't normally buy/replace can add up.

 

Realistically most people want to buy the best quality available, but even brand names that before meant quality are suffering. Reviews on the new Krups were horrible.

 

Brand names don't mean long lasting anymore.

 

Quality is part of the issue dh is running into at work, he does maintenance and projects. The building is 30 years old and things are finally wearing out. The things that have been replaced/repaired in the last 10 years are not lasting either. The owners have a blind eye to the fact that some things, including large system like HVAC etc are not lasting like they used to. They also can't be repaired like they used to because of technology parts and lower quality. Dh is having a hard time getting his bosses to understand this and they're spending more to repair something than it costs to replace it. Sorry, not really related to middle class.

 

This is a huge issue for us! My grandmother died at 72 and had the same blender for decades. I am constantly reading reviews and trying to buy the best item but so often it's garbage. My $2,000 washing machine and dryer set were a horrible buy in the long run. Every repair requires spending hundreds of dollars to replace whole panels. The last time it broke we went and bought a 40 yo Maytag off Craigslist. My husband can open the thing up now and order individual parts and fix it all himself. It doesn't require $400 for a new whoozy whatsit and $200 for a repair man to install the whoozy whatsit.

 

Things are built badly and deliberately to force us to constantly buy more and more. I love the things I get that last. But they are hard to find and usually expensive. The problem is expensive can be a good item that will last decades or crap that lasts a year or two. It's really hard to tell ahead of time with a lot of things. And it's almost impossible to find good customer service. If you hit 0 often enough you might get a real live person who barely speaks and English and really doesn't care about what you purchased from that company.

[eternalknot]

My husband and I are both from immigrant families, his from a Communist country.

 

We've enjoyed reading and discussing this thread, seeing other POVs and how relative it all is.

[Catwoman]

Yeah, us too. And we don't even own a house. :glare:

 

I think it's pretty ingenious of you to manage to be a slumlord, yet not even own a house. Let's see if I've got this straight -- Basically, you rent out slummy apartments that you don't own, to incredibly stupid people who never think to question why they're paying rent to both you and the guy that actually owns the building?

 

Clever girl! :thumbup:

[Catwoman]

 

I think of upper middle as:

-designer clothes and spa treatments

-multi expensive vacas

-McMansions

-luxury cars

-college without debt or strain to family budget

-society events

-no retirement concerns

 

WAIT that's rich, right? So what is upper middle these days? Middle class seems so hard to define.

 

That doesn't sound like rich to me. That sounds like upper middle class.

 

Yes, I was most certainly did grow up middle-class. The rich kids' families drove luxury vehicles, lived in McMansions, often had a summer place on Cape Cod and/or a condo at some ski resort, wore designer clothes, vacationed at Club Med (back when that was considered a "cool" thing), did expensive sports like figure skating or dressage, etc. My folks didn't have that kind of money. But they still had a lot more disposable cash than middle-class families like my own today do.

 

Your "rich kids" would have been the upper middle class kids where we lived when I was growing up, and that's still what we would call them.

 

Right. Way too low. This would be barely getting by in some expensive areas.

 

That's exactly what I was thinking. Sadly, an income of $150,000 a year wouldn't make anyone qualify as rich in our area.

[mommymilkies]

I'm thinking part of the difference in opinion here is what "class" you were raised in. I have family with dirt floors, and I've known hunger too much in my life. So to me, McMansions, "society events" (whatever that is), designer clothes, etc. mean you are very wealthy. Probably OT so much if you were raised that way, kwim? Especially here in corn country. Upper class is totally different than Upper class in Cape Cod, I'm sure.

[Nscribe]

I just worry it will be harder for our children to be middle class (in any sense of the word).

[Catwoman]

I'm thinking part of the difference in opinion here is what "class" you were raised in. I have family with dirt floors, and I've known hunger too much in my life. So to me, McMansions, "society events" (whatever that is), designer clothes, etc. mean you are very wealthy. Probably OT so much if you were raised that way, kwim? Especially here in corn country. Upper class is totally different than Upper class in Cape Cod, I'm sure.

 

I think that is an excellent point.

[Dandelion]

Interesting discussion.

 

I think part of the reason it's so difficult to come up with clear, specific parameters for what defines "middle class" is because there's such a variance in how people choose to spend (or not spend) their money. Unless you can see a family's financial statements (or they're very obviously at one end of the spectrum or the other), you're really only guessing where they fit if you just look at "how they live".

 

According to the Kiplinger's income tool linked on the first page, we're near the top from an income standpoint. No one would ever guess that by looking at our house, our cars, our clothes, or the vacations we take. But DH could lose his job tomorrow and we'd be just fine financially for the next 10 years (without any additional source of income). We have zero debt, large investments, we live very comfortably, but we don't have a flashy lifestyle.

[TammyS]

My house is quite a bit smaller than the one in which I grew up, yet it costs twice as much in constant dollars.

 

My parents always had 2 cars and never kept any for 180k miles like ours has on. They tended to get a new one every 3 or 4 years to replace the older of their vehicles so that's a total of 6-8 years. We'll have had our one car a decade this coming spring.

 

My folks took us on vacations every year to places like Disney World or on Carnival cruises. We have taken exactly 2 vacations in the 14 years we've been married and they were both road trips (one down to San Diego and the other up the Pacific Coast to Vancouver).

 

My brothers and I did private music lessons, martial arts (my brothers), and community theater (me). We can't afford any of that for our kids.

 

It is absolutely true that the middle-class has far less disposable cash than it did two decades ago. We are fortunate that we can still afford the basics, unlike those on the rungs below us.

 

I grew thinking I was middle class (but now I'm wondering). We lived in a reasonable in a 1500sq ft house that we owned. I'm 35 years old and I can tell you that if I had known you when I was a kid I would have thought your family must have been RICH, because NONE of the kids that I went to school with got all of those things except for a few rich ones.

[TammyS]

I got tired of reading through all of these so I'll just post my experience growing up, I'm 35 years old and grew up in a moderate area on the east coast. When I was a kid you were considered:

 

1.Poor: if on a regular basis you did not have enough money for food, clothing, and/or shelter (including reasonable utilities - ie. not including cable)

 

2.Middle Class: if on a regular basis, you DID have enough money for food, clothing, and shelter. Many people in the middle class often also had enough money for: occasional vacations of a modest means, lessons for kids, 1 luxury vacation in a life, etc.

 

3.Rich: if you could afford to have "extras" (anything above food, clothing, and shelter) on a frequent basis.

 

I know that reflects my understanding as a child and that it lacks nuance....yet, I can't help but feel that there is a grain of truth in it somewhere. I can't help but feel that we have, as a culture, become rather a bunch of soft, whiny, brats. That we really need to learn to quit griping about everything we don't have, which would have looked like unimaginable luxury to Ceasar, and learn to be grateful for a change.

[jar7709]

I read somewhere once that 90% of people think they are middle-class, whether that be true economically or not. It's largely psychology and POV.

 

Our house is modest but newer, we have one new car and one old car, we go on modest, road-trip type vacations once in a while. By some perspectives we probably look wealthy. By others we look, maybe not "poor", but definitely less well-off than some. My grandmother on one side grew up in a palace in Venice, my grandmother on the other side grew up in a tiny farmhouse with many siblings and "made do" on a homestead. Both probably would have told you they were middle-class.

 

I think a lot of the talk about the 'middle class' and what is in the 'middle class' best interests' and what the 'middle class wants' is largely hyperbole and not useful; there are in actuality too much variety and too many assumptions to make such general statements very helpful. Sure, some in the middle class are going to be doing worse over the last few years or decades, some are going to be doing better. That's life. Nothing stays the same. Do the best you can with the hand you're dealt, try to do right by the people you're playing with, and see if you can't figure out the game along the way.

Edited October 23, 2012 by jar7709

[kubiac]

As of today, I've decided that for me, personally, middle class means be able to afford a relatively flexible PPO for health insurance. I personally find HMOs enraging, and I swear the stress of dealing with them causes me as much illness as whatever I came in to be checked for.

 

If we're down on our luck, HMO whoo-hoo, but any year we're feeling strong, I WANT THE DARN PPO.

 

YMMV.

 

That is all.

 

Carry on.

 

:P

Edited October 23, 2012 by kubiac