s/o High school seniors - lying to American students

[GoVanGogh]

...sometimes I think you don't quite grasp the level of lying that goes on in some American schools today.

 

Our American ancestors in one-room schoolhouses, crowded tenement Sunday schools, and homeschools knew they were less educated than other people in the world. The eighth-grade graduate of a pioneer school knew he was less educated than the eastern dude whose daddy could afford college.

 

Our uneducated American children today have no idea how dumb they are. They are told that they're smart, and they're given A's they did not earn. Anything above comatose gets an "attaboy," any effort above cheating is praised. It's all to mollify the parents, keep the government money coming, and feed the beast, and the entire nation is paying the price.

 

I can't emphasize how rare it is for a child sitting in one of these factories for mushy brains to sit up and say, "What the h*ll is going on here? I'm not learning a d*mn thing, and these people around here are even dumber than me. My teacher is lying, my principal is lying, and I know for a fact my test scores are lying." No way. One in ten thousand, maybe.

 

Now, that's what some of us did last generation. And then we tuned out the school people all day and biked to the library to educate ourselves. But we could, you see, because before they stopped teaching us they did bother to teach us to read with phonics. We could read, so we could learn on our own. Our libraries were pretty good 20 years ago, too. Also, they didn't puff us up 20 years ago. They didn't lie to us about our accomplishments. Not like now. And we never, ever, ever got 'participation trophies' in Little League.

 

When we faced the world at 17 or 18 the picture was fairly clear. No matter who was to blame, we understood the score, and we still had the guts to deal with it. I don't think it's the same now.

 

Oh, boy, am I gonna get it tomorrow after some people read this. AuntieM once told me I was a straight-shooter, though, and sometimes I just have to get out the old soapbox and shoot my mouth off. Ugh. Sorry. I think this needs said.

 

It's not happening in ALL schools but it's happening in many. Inner-city, rural, mountain, and even suburban schools have become worse than ineffective. They've become a sham.

This post was very eye-opening to read first thing this morn.

I know I have read statistics that American students rank themselves as some of the best in the world, where their test scores show the opposite.

But I have never heard it talked about or debated.

 

I know our school district - affluent suburb of a major city - has some of the highest scores on our state standardized tests. Around 90% of our students go on to college.

 

But the state ranks schools by the number of high school graduates that need remedial classes in college and how many actually graduate. 72% of our students take at least one remedial class in college, while 76% of students at the "awful" school on the other side of the city take remedial classes. Really not that big of a difference, considering how vastly different the schools are.

I don't remember the graduation rates for our school, but know that across the state less than 40% of college students graduate within 4 years. In our own neighborhood, not one of the children that went on to college in the past few years graduated. One died of a drug overdoes, two are in jail for drugs and the rest flunked or dropped out.

 

I am interested in hearing more about how American standards stack up. I know people look at me like I'm crazy for homeschooling in such a "wonderful" school district. But how do you make sure your homeschool student is ready for college when you are surrounded by low standards?

[mommaduck]

Who posted that?! I love it!

[8filltheheart]

Honestly, I ignore other people's standards and POV. It is really that simple. My oldest and I butt heads constantly when he was in high school b/c all of his friends (and their parents!!!!) told him my expectations were unrealistic and that he was being required to do to much. (Ironically, compared to what my younger kids are doing, he wouldn't stack up to their load!) I naively entered into a co-op situation w/these families at one pt and learned quickly that if I wanted to preserve my friendships that I had to stop (one of my closest friends got extremely irate w/me about her kids' essays that I marked. Why? b/c I marked verb shifts, changes in POV, and commented that you do not quote something an entire page in length. I was informed that I was expecting too much from 10th and 12th graders. :tongue_smilie: )

 

I do not do co-ops. I teach. I carefully select materials after vast amts of time of research. I only outsource now to classes that I know will meet my expectations.

 

FWIW, my ds called me his freshman yr of college and thanked me. He was watching his friends flunk classes left and right. He managed to graduate near the top of his graduating class w/his degree in chemical engineering after only 7 semesters (one of them a summer semester). So he co-oped for 12 straight months and graduated the same yr as if he had been attending all 4 yrs.

 

Meanwhile, not one of his high school friends has graduated from college. Several of them haven't even earned their AAs. Ds has graduated, married, is the dad of 1 beautiful baby girl, and expecting #2.

 

All that to say that the daily conflict we had was my responsibility to persevere through......I am the one who made the decision to homeschool. I am the teacher. I am the guidance counselor. I am the principle. I am the parent. The standards that need to be met are mine. (though, I make my standards match what they are capable of achieving and what their personal life-goals are. It isn't a matter of me simply controlling my kids' decisions, b/c that is something I refuse to do. However, our ds kept insisting he wanted to be an engineer. He was capable of making that goal a reality. I simply had to reaffirm constantly that what others were telling him simply did not match reality and if he wanted to achieve his goals, I knew the work he needed to complete.)

[8filltheheart]

Who posted that?! I love it!

 

Tibbie Dunbar. :iagree: It is excellent. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3675862#poststop

[regentrude]

But how do you make sure your homeschool student is ready for college when you are surrounded by low standards?

 

I don't give a fig about other people's standards. Especially not the homeschoolers' I know IRL. I have mine, and they are modeled on two things: my own public school education in my home country, and the realities of a university which I experience daily at work. In that sense I am very fortunate not to have been influenced by a mediocre ps education here.

 

Btw, I notice a general tendency of society in the US to consider whatever is done here the gold standard, and this country the greatest nation on Earth which could not possibly learn anything from anybody else. To the extent that people who critique various aspects of the system (be it education, or medical care, or other things) are being told to their face to go live in another country if they do not like everything here. This sentiment of superiority and infallability, of inflated national pride, pervades all aspects of society and prevents people from looking over their limited horizon (back home we would call it : over the rim of your dinner plate). Education is just one facet.

[Jane in NC]

 

All that to say that the daily conflict we had was my responsibility to persevere through......I am the one who made the decision to homeschool. I am the teacher. I am the guidance counselor. I am the principle. I am the parent. The standards that need to be met are mine. (though, I make my standards match what they are capable of achieving and what their personal life-goals are. It isn't a matter of me simply controlling my kids' decisions, b/c that is something I refuse to do. However, our ds kept insisting he wanted to be an engineer. He was capable of making that goal a reality. I simply had to reaffirm constantly that what others were telling him simply did not match reality and if he wanted to achieve his goals, I knew the work he needed to complete.)

 

Forgive me, 8, for pointing out your typo but you are the principle as well as the principal! A magnificently truthful slip! :D

[8filltheheart]

Forgive me, 8, for pointing out your typo but you are the principle as well as the principal! A magnificently truthful slip! :D

 

LOL! My principles dictate my role as principal! :lol:

[SunD]

I love that!

 

I started preschool in 1990. I know the local school I attended (which was one of the "good" ones) was still using ... maybe they called it whole language? There was some discussion of phonics, as far as letter sounds, but nothing past there. No help at all with blends, multi-syllable words, etc. Definitely no help with fluency. My mom had me reading at home before I ever started, which I am thankful for every day. As a sophomore (my last year there), I begged to be the only one to read the textbook aloud in Government. Even though I had already read the whole thing, I couldn't stand listening to another 15/16yo haltingly sound out "American" and get it wrong. (Am-er-EE-can was a common guess.)

 

I can say, with surety and sadness, that public school was a waste of 12 years of my life. Teachers used to ask me to proofread memos. What!? I was in 4th grade! They hated having me in a class because I would correct their misspellings on the blackboard. (Get angry with a 12yo for embarrassing you, or accept that you're a terrible speller and pick up a book? I guess the first option is correct.) I clearly remember the principal listing "racketball" as a hobby on a survey for the school paper. I quietly changed it to "racquetball" for the article and she later corrected me. I had to get a dictionary from the library to show her. She didn't have one in her own office. Again ... she didn't know that she didn't know, and she was in charge of the school. (There were other, similar incidents with her and other teachers. "Fluoride" and "Hawaii" were two of them. That's just the one that stands out most in my memory.)

 

And now this state is adding to the homeschooling regulations, that I have to match the public high school's instruction level, which includes teaching the Federalist Papers. :001_huh: What world are these people in!? To specifically mention the Federalist Papers, they must believe the high school PS students are capable of reading them. Gosh, no wonder the kids have a skewed perception of their abilities!

 

 

I am where I am because my mother taught me to read and then supplied me with books ... not every book I ever wanted, because we were just shy of poor, but a lot of them. Some of you are saying, "SunD was the editor of her high school newspaper? Wow. Her grammar is so bad!" But I was the best option. ;) Luckily my last two PS years were spent at a specialized school where I was not smarter than the teachers. They were truly experts in their fields, and I learned a lot there. But my class was the smallest the school had ever admitted, and many of the others left or flunked out. They had room for 200 students and couldn't find that many qualified applicants in the whole state. They thought they were scraping the bottom of the barrel, and I'm inclined to believe they were right based on how many couldn't hack it.

 

The "good" local PS does use some phonics program now, but it doesn't look much better than what we got. The teacher sings jingles, like a song about "two vowels go walking", and the kids' eyes glaze over. They can't apply it to actual reading. Spelling is random unrelated words and pure memorization. My nephew has gotten a little haphazard instruction from me (mostly just pointing out the few rules I know in actual usage) and declares the "Shark" reading group to be totally boring and is starting to get in trouble for not paying attention. :001_huh:

[chepyl]

We run auditions 2-3 times a year with our theatre students. Auditions always include cold readings. 7-12th graders trip up on words that follow basic phonics rules. Even when we tell them the word half of them get stuck on it or mispronounce it.

 

DS, last year, as a Ker, read better than 4th grade ps students. Cold readings with some of our late elementary students get painful. You can tell what students know phonics and what students don't.

 

And the basic historical references from the scripts are lost on so many of them. It makes me sad.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Wow, I've been spun off and quoted!

 

I agree with 8Fill and regentrude, there can be very little comparison or collaboration, especially at the high school level. The delusion is too contagious and depressing. We have to just put our shoulders to the wheel and press on alone.

 

We're not finding academic peers yet, but we've found friends with the correct attitude toward learning in our local Civil Air Patrol squadron. These boys are committed to being the best squadron in the wing. They obtain the standards from headquarters for every little thing and work together to master it all. Their attitude, perseverance, and friendly competition inspire my son to study harder as a homeschooler, too. Not because he cares (yet) about all of his studies, but because he knows his friends are also doing their best at CAP. He wouldn't feel right about slouching through Philosophy and then going to work rigorously at marching for three hours.

 

I can't promise him that he'll find well-educated and hardworking friends in college. I assumed he would, but posters here have set me straight on that. We've changed gears to instead seek out friends who "Believe and Achieve" in whatever they choose to pursue. Attitude is more important that content.

 

Anything but the poison of self-delusion and apathy.

[regentrude]

I can't promise him that he'll find well-educated and hardworking friends in college. I assumed he would, but posters here have set me straight on that.

 

Tibbie, it really depends on the college! I teach at a university and see hardworking, motivated students all the time. Yes, I gripe most about the lazy ones who have a pathetic work attitude and blame the teachers for their failure, but to be fair: they are the minority. Most of my students are a pleasure to teach. They are working hard in their classes, many are involved in undergraduate research, many participate in theater or choir or athletics or solar car competitions in their limited spare time. If your son seeks them out, he WILL find motivated, hardworking students. They may not have the same classical education background as he, and some may come from mediocre public schools, but there are bright, motivated peers.

 

Of course there are students fro whom fraternity activities take priority, who are taking my class for the third time and STILL do not manage to turn in the homework and attend regularly and will fail again. But they tend to hang out with like minded kids and your son can choose a different group ;-)

[readinmom]

I think the concern should be focused on why students who graduate from such highly ranked schools cannot pass the entry level placement tests and are put into remedial writing and reading courses.

 

If you recall the opening of WTM, she discusses how her class struggled with how to write a paper (loved the one about not enough material to discuss Ancient Mariner). We have to question what is more important: standards or skills. If students are not mastering basic skills, then whether the standards have been taught or not is pointless. Every October my co-teacher and I are besieged by students wanting help with the common app personal statements, and then again for their senior projects. "How do I start, What do I write, What is a narrative account?"

 

It's very sobering to look and see where your students stack up when it comes to college readiness. You cannot fix in one year what was neglected for eight or nine years.

[G5052]

You cannot fix in one year what was neglected for eight or nine years.

 

This is almost word-for-word what a professor friend told me one time when I asked her how many of her remedial English students actually go on to take regular college classes, and from there, how many actually graduate. She was teaching the lowest level of remedial English at the community college where I teach IT, and she estimated that less than 5% of her students go on to eventually get a degree from a community college. There is just too much of a deficit to overcome, and it takes a lot of work and time for those who do make it. Very few will stick it out.

 

And I agree. Ultimately you have to ignore everything around you and demand a lot of your own children, either directly or by finding classes where a lot is expected. If you use outside classes, you really have to monitor the expectations. We've been in situations where mine was the only one completing assignments as specified, and where the feedback really wasn't providing anything I didn't already know. I've come to the point that in those cases, I'm better off teaching the subject.

[Lori D.]

This is VERY tangential to your main topic of not telling students the truth that they are failing and need to look "beyond the rim of their plate", BUT... You may find this essay from 2008 (and linked previously on WTM Board) to be very interesting -- the perspective of a community college professor who, from first-hand knowledge, says the not everyone is cut out for college. And here is the same author's more recent (2011) article on "anti-college backlash."

 

I've recently been doing quite a bit of research on alternatives to 4-year college, and so have found a number of statistics that, while, yes the percentage of people who have a 4-year degree or higher is a greater percentage than in 1950, it's not as much as you might think -- just under 30%. And the trends projected from the past 10-15 years don't show that percentage getting significantly larger. Check out last year's Pew Study on "Is College Worth It" for some interesting questions and trends.

 

Again, I realize all of this is a "spin-off" of the original spin-off topic (lol) -- just thought someone else might find it of interest. :) Warmly, Lori D.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Lori D.

[jamajo]

Honestly, I ignore other people's standards and POV. It is really that simple. My oldest and I butt heads constantly when he was in high school b/c all of his friends (and their parents!!!!) told him my expectations were unrealistic and that he was being required to do to much. (Ironically, compared to what my younger kids are doing, he wouldn't stack up to their load!) I naively entered into a co-op situation w/these families at one pt and learned quickly that if I wanted to preserve my friendships that I had to stop (one of my closest friends got extremely irate w/me about her kids' essays that I marked. Why? b/c I marked verb shifts, changes in POV, and commented that you do not quote something an entire page in length. I was informed that I was expecting too much from 10th and 12th graders. :tongue_smilie: )

 

I do not do co-ops. I teach. I carefully select materials after vast amts of time of research. I only outsource now to classes that I know will meet my expectations.

 

FWIW, my ds called me his freshman yr of college and thanked me. He was watching his friends flunk classes left and right. He managed to graduate near the top of his graduating class w/his degree in chemical engineering after only 7 semesters (one of them a summer semester). So he co-oped for 12 straight months and graduated the same yr as if he had been attending all 4 yrs.

 

Meanwhile, not one of his high school friends has graduated from college. Several of them haven't even earned their AAs. Ds has graduated, married, is the dad of 1 beautiful baby girl, and expecting #2.

 

All that to say that the daily conflict we had was my responsibility to persevere through......I am the one who made the decision to homeschool. I am the teacher. I am the guidance counselor. I am the principle. I am the parent. The standards that need to be met are mine. (though, I make my standards match what they are capable of achieving and what their personal life-goals are. It isn't a matter of me simply controlling my kids' decisions, b/c that is something I refuse to do. However, our ds kept insisting he wanted to be an engineer. He was capable of making that goal a reality. I simply had to reaffirm constantly that what others were telling him simply did not match reality and if he wanted to achieve his goals, I knew the work he needed to complete.)

 

You go girl! You can grade my high schooler's paper any time.:001_smile:

[Charles Wallace]

I think the concern should be focused on why students who graduate from such highly ranked schools cannot pass the entry level placement tests and are put into remedial writing and reading courses.

 

Two words: Grade inflation.

[Ohdanigirl]

Honestly, I ignore other people's standards and POV. It is really that simple. My oldest and I butt heads constantly when he was in high school b/c all of his friends (and their parents!!!!) told him my expectations were unrealistic and that he was being required to do to much. (Ironically, compared to what my younger kids are doing, he wouldn't stack up to their load!) I naively entered into a co-op situation w/these families at one pt and learned quickly that if I wanted to preserve my friendships that I had to stop (one of my closest friends got extremely irate w/me about her kids' essays that I marked. Why? b/c I marked verb shifts, changes in POV, and commented that you do not quote something an entire page in length. I was informed that I was expecting too much from 10th and 12th graders. :tongue_smilie: )

 

I do not do co-ops. I teach. I carefully select materials after vast amts of time of research. I only outsource now to classes that I know will meet my expectations.

 

FWIW, my ds called me his freshman yr of college and thanked me. He was watching his friends flunk classes left and right. He managed to graduate near the top of his graduating class w/his degree in chemical engineering after only 7 semesters (one of them a summer semester). So he co-oped for 12 straight months and graduated the same yr as if he had been attending all 4 yrs.

 

Meanwhile, not one of his high school friends has graduated from college. Several of them haven't even earned their AAs. Ds has graduated, married, is the dad of 1 beautiful baby girl, and expecting #2.

 

All that to say that the daily conflict we had was my responsibility to persevere through......I am the one who made the decision to homeschool. I am the teacher. I am the guidance counselor. I am the principle. I am the parent. The standards that need to be met are mine. (though, I make my standards match what they are capable of achieving and what their personal life-goals are. It isn't a matter of me simply controlling my kids' decisions, b/c that is something I refuse to do. However, our ds kept insisting he wanted to be an engineer. He was capable of making that goal a reality. I simply had to reaffirm constantly that what others were telling him simply did not match reality and if he wanted to achieve his goals, I knew the work he needed to complete.)

 

Thank you so much for sharing this. I get the same attitude from my kids friends and their parents. You inspire me.

 

Danielle

[jibaker103]

I think the concern should be focused on why students who graduate from such highly ranked schools cannot pass the entry level placement tests and are put into remedial writing and reading courses.

 

We have to question what is more important: standards or skills. If students are not mastering basic skills, then whether the standards have been taught or not is pointless.

 

It's very sobering to look and see where your students stack up when it comes to college readiness. You cannot fix in one year what was neglected for eight or nine years.

Below is the introduction to a grant proposal I wrote last year!

 

During the 2008-2009 academic year, approximately 41,000 Texas students dropped out of grades 7th through 12th. Nationally more than 7,000 students drop out of high school every day (Pinkus, 2006). For the majority of these students, dropout rates are because the student is failing a core subject, has low school attendance, or being held back from advancement to the next grade. A large percentage of these students are economically disadvantaged, from non-English speaking homes, African American, or Hispanic (TEA, 2011). Many of these students lack the basic literacy skills needed to meet the growing demands of the high school curriculum (Snow & Biancarosa, 2003).

 

A question to consider is: If high school students are lacking basic literacy skills, how will they survive in a college setting? “A recent study by ACT (2005) revealed that about a third of high school students intending to enter higher education do not meet readiness benchmarks for college-level English composition courses (among certain ethnic groups, 50% or more of adolescents do not meet ACT benchmarks)†(Graham and Perin, 2007). This study concludes that it is unlikely that the student will be able to learn effectively in the college setting. According to the National Center for Education (2003) the statistics show that many students begin postsecondary education at a community college. However, at least one-fourth of these students enroll in remedial writing courses. As stated by Perin (cited in Graham and Perin, 2007), “Compounding the problem, remedial enrollments appear to underestimate the number of students who actually need help with writing.â€

 

Results of a study conducted by the Chronicle of Higher Education, in the Steinway article Not All Freshman are Ready for College Writing, demonstrated a difference in high school teachers' perception and of college professors' assessments in the writing abilities of their students. “The study found that six percent of professors at the college level view their students as very well prepared writers, compared with 36 percent of high school teachers [who view their students as very well prepared]. The Chronicle's study also revealed that 44 percent of university faculty members say their students are not ready for college-level writing†(Steinway, 2008).

 

The definition of literacy is the ability to read and write, yet students graduate every year without the ability to write at the basic level to function in college or professionally (Graham & Perin, 2007). All students need the ability to be proficient and well-rounded writers to thrive in the world today. In life, writing skills are needed at work, at school, and as a contributing member of society. In most cases these situations will overlap and an individual will need to be flexible and “adapt their writing to the context in which it takes place†(Graham and Perin, 2007). Writing well is no longer an option but a necessity. “Along with reading comprehension, writing skill is a predictor of academic success and a basic requirement for participation in civic life and in the global economy†(Graham and Perin, 2007).

 

Today, most jobs require employees to be able to create “written documentation, visual/text presentations, memoranda, technical reports, and electronic messages. The explosion of electronic and wireless communication in everyday life brings writing skills into play as never before†(Graham and Perin, 2007). The ability to write effectively is a critical aspect of being hired and promoted in a competitive workforce environment. According to the National Commission on Writing (2004, 2005) “the demand for writing proficiency is not limited to professional jobs but extends to clerical and support positions in government, construction, manufacturing, service industries, and elsewhereâ€(Graham and Perin, 2007). The National Commission on Writing also states that “30% of government and private sector employees require on-the-job training in basic writing skills. Private companies spend an estimated $3.1 billion annually on remediation, and state governments spend an estimated $221 million annually†(Graham and Perin, 2007).

[G5052]

FWIW, my ds called me his freshman yr of college and thanked me. He was watching his friends flunk classes left and right. He managed to graduate near the top of his graduating class w/his degree in chemical engineering after only 7 semesters (one of them a summer semester). So he co-oped for 12 straight months and graduated the same yr as if he had been attending all 4 yrs.

 

Meanwhile, not one of his high school friends has graduated from college. Several of them haven't even earned their AAs. Ds has graduated, married, is the dad of 1 beautiful baby girl, and expecting #2.

 

I look at my oldest's peers and wonder where they'll be in five years, ten years. His closest friends are thankfully from families who expect a lot, and some have homeschooled college grads who have done fine. So it isn't just me nagging, which I am glad of. We have contact with others though, and I know that it is going to be tough for them because of choices their parents have made. It is sobering!

[Photo Ninja]

What is also sad is that sometimes students are short-changed academically while the school maintains it is helping them.

 

My college dd has a roommate who has struggled with math and was taking essentially Algebra 1. She didn't understand how to work the problems, and was worried that she would fail the course. Dd had been helping her with homework, explaining the math concepts, how to work the problems and why, etc. Her roommate told her that no one had ever explained math to her before.

 

While watching her roommate struggle, dd tried to figure out what skills her roommate was lacking, then taught those basic skills. She identified that her roommate did not know how to divide. Her roommate could only divide up to the multiplication tables she had memorized (through the tens). Dividing any number larger than 100 sent her into a confused panic because she had no idea how to divide. No one had ever taught her long division. Dd taught her how to do long division, then was able to teach her roommate about factoring.

 

It turns out that her roommate had been pulled out of class during elementary school for help with reading - but every day she was pulled out of math! So she was never taught math because she was not in class when the teacher taught math. She was forever in a state of needing to catch up to the rest of the class because the teachers never had time to teach her individually. So she was years behind in math, all because the school decided to help her with reading. Dd was shocked that a school would not have better sense. Having this done throughout elementary school set this girl up to not learn basic math skills.

[creekland]

We have very few academic peers here. That's why I opted to homeschool 6 years ago.

 

Working at school, I've come to the conclusion that I (and the precious few peers out there) live on a whole different academic plane than anyone local. I was fortunate to have attended a really good high school at a time when we who were deemed "able" were separated from the rest and held to higher expectations. We weren't just taught to memorize (though some memorization is crucial), we were taught to love learning about pretty much anything and everything. We had many options for classes and many of my classmates went on to higher level colleges.

 

Naturally, I assumed everyone had a similar experience. BUT, when I went to college (nice college - Virginia Tech, but not super high caliber - annoyed my guidance counselor that I didn't go "higher"), I found that many students were struggling with their freshmen classes. I couldn't really comprehend as, to me, most were a repeat of high school. Some were new. I had a nice mix.

 

I met hubby and found out his ps education wasn't nearly as in depth as mine, but he loved learning, graduated as a Civil Engineer, and we've enjoyed continuing our lifelong path of learning. I chalked up his lack of prior education to 'southern schools.' (Stereotype, I know, but...)

 

Then we moved here and I started working in our local ps. Wow, my eyes were opened and I still sometimes am in states of disbelief. Some I share on here. We're AVERAGE for across the US (slightly below average for PA) and I definitely feel average is inadequate. BUT, most of the people around here are local - from within an hour - and attended similar average schools. They went to lower level colleges than I did and stayed on their own 'plane' of education. They think what they're doing is perfectly adequate and see no reason to change. They feel the students around here aren't capable of doing what "top school" students do.

 

It's all hogwash, of course. Some students here are equally as capable as my peers and I were. It's a similar demographic to where I grew up. They just are never challenged or held accountable to do higher caliber things (thinking, writing, math). Students get 4.0 (give or take a little), but it's not grade inflation, it's subject dumbing down. My guy's 10th grade Honors English class read, "Spud" (a book filled with 'fun' s_x stuff) which in literary terms is on a 6th grade level. Our 8th graders read books on a 4th grade level. We aren't allowed to separate those who are capable from those who aren't (or won't) - therefore, the subjects need to be made easier so all can pass. Failure is not an option. No matter what, that's always the teacher's fault. Start crossing those difficult questions from any test, keep on with remedial everything, and give test study guides that are essentially the same thing as the test so a simple memorization will suffice for a good grade.

 

Then, state testing comes along (or SAT) and we end up below average. This next year we get on state takeover (no one claims to know what that means yet). The state tests are 'too hard' for our kids. Our kids are 'smart' mind you - it's all the testing fault. It doesn't show their abilities. This is told to parents year after year, and, since the parents grew up in this area, it's definitely true. They simply don't know any differently.

 

Personally, I don't see any 'fix' to this 'tradition.' I do, however, feel for those kids who could do so much more. Every now and then we get one who does extra work outside of school (often hours more) to make up for inadequacies within our school. They do well - and our school takes the credit. I often talk with them on the side - guidance as well as simply sharing. It was one of those young ladies that first mentioned the different educational 'plane' she felt she was on. That's really the perfect wording for it.

 

Meanwhile, those here will graduate from high school, continue on to community college or low level 4 year schools, return here, gets jobs, and send their kids to school. Yes, as far as 'life' goes, they're successful. As far as knowledge or academics? It's a different plane.

 

I suppose that's partially why I have my college biases. I used to think all high schools were similar. I know now that they are vastly different. I carry that over to colleges too - and try to investigate as much as I can for my guys.

 

Can one be 'successful' coming from any college? Of course! Are they academically similar? I have my doubts.

[Jane in NC]

 

Then we moved here and I started working in our local ps. Wow, my eyes were opened and I still sometimes am in states of disbelief. Some I share on here. We're AVERAGE for across the US (slightly below average for PA) and I definitely feel average is inadequate. BUT, most of the people around here are local - from within an hour - and attended similar average schools. They went to lower level colleges than I did and stayed on their own 'plane' of education. They think what they're doing is perfectly adequate and see no reason to change. They feel the students around here aren't capable of doing what "top school" students do.

 

 

Creekland, I could have written much of your post. Our local public high school boasts NC test scores that are above average, although SAT scores are below average for the state and the nation.

 

Parents here condemn other schools within the system but are happy with the school that their children attend. This seems to be a typical phenomenon. It is hard to see that Mrs. Smith, although a caring person, is not a particularly good teacher. Johnny is learning--but the question of whether Johnny is learning enough or learning the proper skills does not seem to enter the discussion.

 

Many people here thought we were nuts to homeschool. Certainly there are children who successfully navigate their way through these schools and into college and professional or grad school. But they seem so few and far between. And the energy that is required to go to bat for your kid convinced me that I could use the same energy to teach my child directly--with less frustration (although there were those adolescent hormone filled days...)

 

So we are clearly in the camp of those who homeschool for academic reasons. Yet this was only the starting point. My son's interesting projects, his cultivation of academic passions, the joined at the hip endeavor of self education as we found our way...these are the terrific side benefits that we certainly had not completely envisioned at the start of the process.

 

About the peers: my son's two best friends from elementary schools days (when the boys attended a Montessori school) are in college and on track. But it seems that there are so many young adults in our community who are really at a loss for what to do. Admittedly some are trying--they work as waitresses or cashiers for the time being. I worry though about the kids who seem to be in downward spirals. There are too many of them. This was not how their parents envisioned their lives back in those boastful days on the soccer fields. The number of "brilliant" children in my community tipped the scales back then. What happened?? At some point in middle school, I think, it all comes apart at the seams which leads me to think that those who decry the lack of basic skills have hit the nail on the head. That coupled with the lack of intellectualism outside of school partitucarly by parents who seem to believe that their job is to see that their children are constantly entertained.

 

I am sounding like a rambling curmudgeon :tongue_smilie: so I should sign off.

[Gwen in VA]

Dd spends MANY hours per week in an organization with mostly public schoolers.

 

Why is it that my dd is only one to ever do any schoolwork -- even when they are at the building all day and have multiple hours between performances?

 

Why is it that no one ever talks about homework -- or apparently does any?

 

Why is it that the kid in the group who is regarded as "smartest" has a totally lame PSAT score but people say that the score is the highest they have ever heard of?

 

Why is it that my dd, who due to the wonders of block scheduling is "behind" her peers in math, is the one everyone turns to when they have a homework problem?

[Sahamamama]

I do not do co-ops. I teach.

 

All that to say that the daily conflict we had was my responsibility to persevere through......I am the one who made the decision to homeschool. I am the teacher. I am the guidance counselor. I am the principle. I am the parent. The standards that need to be met are mine.

 

:001_wub: I love you! :001_smile:

[MBM]

Since I see Charles Wallace has popped in, I must link her post -- my absolute favorite -- about the three levels of education (see post #35).

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1467402&highlight=armand#post1467402

[SailorMom]

Hmmmmm.....

I'll agree standards are not what they should be, all around. Those old 8th grade graduation tests that my grandpa took in the 1920's really can make a person humble.

 

That said, around here, the honors classes seem to do a decent job in our high school. Ds is in honors English, biology, and geometry - and those three subjects are pretty good. However, I would say they are not what 'honors" was when I was in high school. They are slightly lower. He rarely has homework - but I think that has more to do with him than the classes. I do think that the standards in the normal classes are abysmally low, and that was the reason I insisted he take all honors (they do not offer honors in anything else in 9th here), and no regular courses.

 

When I was in high school - there were three levels of classes offered. Low, normal, and honors/AP. What I see here is that they've combined the three into two. The low/normal and now the normal/honors. They have done this not by raising the standards of the lower classes, but by lowering the standards in the higher ones. Raising the standards would have made the schools look bad.....

[creekland]

Dd spends MANY hours per week in an organization with mostly public schoolers.

 

Why is it that my dd is only one to ever do any schoolwork -- even when they are at the building all day and have multiple hours between performances?

 

Why is it that no one ever talks about homework -- or apparently does any?

 

Why is it that the kid in the group who is regarded as "smartest" has a totally lame PSAT score but people say that the score is the highest they have ever heard of?

 

Why is it that my dd, who due to the wonders of block scheduling is "behind" her peers in math, is the one everyone turns to when they have a homework problem?

 

The more I read, the more I realize my local ps is average. I can't say I feel better knowing that, but I can relate to everything you've written. :glare:

 

And I want more for my kids. I want more for many of the ps kids with drive too, but there's only so much I can accomplish.

[8filltheheart]

Since I see Charles Wallace has popped in, I must link her post -- my absolute favorite -- about the three levels of education (see post #35).

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1467402&highlight=armand#post1467402

 

 

This one is its equal!!

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3677298#poststop

[MBM]

This one is its equal!!

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3677298#poststop

 

LOL. That's a keeper, too.

[readwithem]

Since I see Charles Wallace has popped in, I must link her post -- my absolute favorite -- about the three levels of education (see post #35).

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1467402&highlight=armand#post1467402

 

Oh my word. Thank you for posting this - love it!! :001_smile:

[readwithem]

So we are clearly in the camp of those who homeschool for academic reasons. Yet this was only the starting point. My son's interesting projects, his cultivation of academic passions, the joined at the hip endeavor of self education as we found our way...these are the terrific side benefits that we certainly had not completely envisioned at the start of the process.

 

 

 

I love this whole paragraph, Jane, but the bolded part in particular.

 

College girl was home last week and we spent a good chunk of the time reading to ourselves, in the same room, different books but popping into each other's train of thought to share a nugget every now and then....

[LizzyBee]

Two words: Grade inflation.

 

Yep. I have a friend who is beside herself because her ninth-grader has not yet passed an Algebra I test but still has a strong C in the class. Since she has a C, the school's attitude is that she is doing fine and they are offering my friend no guidance whatsoever on how she can help her daughter do better.

[G5052]

This has really clarified a lot for me.

 

My oldest has been in paid classes for the last three years with a group that has lower standards than I'd like despite advertising to the contrary. The norm is that Algebra II is the last math class on the transcript, and getting two years of a foreign language is iffy. Of course that does not mean selective college applications, even to selective state colleges.

 

By January I had decided that we need to switch him to a different academic peer group. He's performing to my standard, but he needs to go to the next level. I want him to get at least pre-calculus done, and we're on track to do an AP or SAT II test in a foreign language. He has easily been the top student, and he needs to be taken to the next level and beyond.

 

Public school is not an option because I see the same. Honors classes have expectations that I would call average college-prep, and the track record on AP and SAT II tests is frankly disappointing. They emphasize how many they have taking the tests, and then in the small print you find out that very few actually get the level of scores needed for college credit.

 

Obviously every family has different abilities and priorities, but you've clarified what I already knew. We're capable of more, and I need to keep up the pressure.

[Sahamamama]

What is also sad is that sometimes students are short-changed academically while the school maintains it is helping them.

 

My college dd has a roommate who has struggled with math and was taking essentially Algebra 1. She didn't understand how to work the problems, and was worried that she would fail the course. Dd had been helping her with homework, explaining the math concepts, how to work the problems and why, etc. Her roommate told her that no one had ever explained math to her before.

 

While watching her roommate struggle, dd tried to figure out what skills her roommate was lacking, then taught those basic skills. She identified that her roommate did not know how to divide. Her roommate could only divide up to the multiplication tables she had memorized (through the tens). Dividing any number larger than 100 sent her into a confused panic because she had no idea how to divide. No one had ever taught her long division. Dd taught her how to do long division, then was able to teach her roommate about factoring.

 

It turns out that her roommate had been pulled out of class during elementary school for help with reading - but every day she was pulled out of math! So she was never taught math because she was not in class when the teacher taught math. She was forever in a state of needing to catch up to the rest of the class because the teachers never had time to teach her individually. So she was years behind in math, all because the school decided to help her with reading. Dd was shocked that a school would not have better sense. Having this done throughout elementary school set this girl up to not learn basic math skills.

 

:001_huh: Wow.

[Connections]

Honestly, I ignore other people's standards and POV. It is really that simple. My oldest and I butt heads constantly when he was in high school b/c all of his friends (and their parents!!!!) told him my expectations were unrealistic and that he was being required to do to much. (Ironically, compared to what my younger kids are doing, he wouldn't stack up to their load!) I naively entered into a co-op situation w/these families at one pt and learned quickly that if I wanted to preserve my friendships that I had to stop (one of my closest friends got extremely irate w/me about her kids' essays that I marked. Why? b/c I marked verb shifts, changes in POV, and commented that you do not quote something an entire page in length. I was informed that I was expecting too much from 10th and 12th graders. :tongue_smilie: )

 

I do not do co-ops. I teach. I carefully select materials after vast amts of time of research. I only outsource now to classes that I know will meet my expectations.

 

FWIW, my ds called me his freshman yr of college and thanked me. He was watching his friends flunk classes left and right. He managed to graduate near the top of his graduating class w/his degree in chemical engineering after only 7 semesters (one of them a summer semester). So he co-oped for 12 straight months and graduated the same yr as if he had been attending all 4 yrs.

 

Meanwhile, not one of his high school friends has graduated from college. Several of them haven't even earned their AAs. Ds has graduated, married, is the dad of 1 beautiful baby girl, and expecting #2.

 

All that to say that the daily conflict we had was my responsibility to persevere through......I am the one who made the decision to homeschool. I am the teacher. I am the guidance counselor. I am the principle. I am the parent. The standards that need to be met are mine. (though, I make my standards match what they are capable of achieving and what their personal life-goals are. It isn't a matter of me simply controlling my kids' decisions, b/c that is something I refuse to do. However, our ds kept insisting he wanted to be an engineer. He was capable of making that goal a reality. I simply had to reaffirm constantly that what others were telling him simply did not match reality and if he wanted to achieve his goals, I knew the work he needed to complete.)

 

In all seriousness, please share with me how you became so confident. I want that confidence!

 

For instance, you say "I knew the work he needed to complete." How did you come to the point where you felt certain you knew what he needed.

 

I research homeschooling, education, college expectations, etc. all.of.the.time and it often leaves me more confused!

[Corraleno]

Honors classes have expectations that I would call average college-prep

Most of my extended family lives in a school district that isn't even that good. :glare:

 

My niece, N., is in all honors classes. Her Honors Algebra and Spanish I classes are a joke. I spoke to my sister over the weekend and she said N. was working on a powerpoint presentation about the holocaust. I asked if it was for her history or technology class, and she said "no, it's for English." I asked what the assignment was and she said it was to do a presentation on "how you feel about the holocaust." N's theme is that Hitler was so evil she can't imagine why no one stopped him. :blink: This is for Honors English — they don't bother with essay writing, but my sister is proud of the fact that N. can "whip out a powerpoint presentation in no time." The final grade in N's computer technology class was based on... a Flat Stanley project.

 

I have another niece and nephew who went through the same school district and graduated from HS several years ago — honors classes all along, top grades without ever breaking a sweat, constant assurances from their parents and teachers that they were incredibly smart and could be anything they wanted to be. Nephew got a full scholarship to an excellent university based on his high GPA and class ranking — and flunked out after his first semester, completely stunned by the fact that he couldn't play videogames 24/7, only attend class when he felt like, never read the textbook, and still get As. That approach worked perfectly in high school!

 

After that, his sister didn't even apply to college — her current "career plan" is to keep waitressing until she finds a husband. Nephew works at a low-paying job and feels like there's no point in trying for anything else — he says it's all a big scam anyway, so why bother?

 

And the truth is, he was scammed. All these kids are being scammed, lied to, and misled. I really worry about what's going to happen to my younger nieces when they get to college and discover that the real world bears no resemblance to their crappy school system. :(

 

Jackie

[regentrude]

And the truth is, he was scammed. All these kids are being scammed, lied to, and misled. I really worry about what's going to happen to my younger nieces when they get to college and discover that the real world bears no resemblance to their crappy school system.

 

But where are the parents in all this? Why do they not question it? Why don't they get suspicious if their kids do not have to put in any work in high school - do they think their kids are geniuses? Why do they not work to instill the work ethic the kids need to succeed in college?:confused:

[G5052]

But where are the parents in all this? Why do they not question it? Why don't they get suspicious if their kids do not have to put in any work in high school - do they think their kids are geniuses? Why do they not work to instill the work ethic the kids need to succeed in college?:confused:

 

The other variation -- it must be a "good" high school because they have "lots" of homework. The content? Oh well...

[Rosie_0801]

But where are the parents in all this? Why do they not question it? Why don't they get suspicious if their kids do not have to put in any work in high school - do they think their kids are geniuses? Why do they not work to instill the work ethic the kids need to succeed in college?:confused:

 

If the parents have never gone anywhere or done anything different, they are still those same kids, but with a few more years on them.

 

Rosie

[moki4]

Yep Rosie,

Everything is repeated. It's a closed circle. It keeps repeating and repeating until someone, or some life changing event, can crack it open.

 

I think this rarely happens.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I also think that this silent observing attitude from the parents is partly the result of years of being told that the main role of parents is to chaperone field trips, buy wrapping paper and send in donations for the bake sale. But if they question what is being taught in class they are ignored, patted on the head and told to let the professionals handle things or portrayed as reactionaries.

 

Of course this is something of an oversimplification. Many teachers are horrified that parents won't show up for parent teacher conferences or make sure their kids complete homework (I'm not talking about stupid assignments, but the basic readings, writings and math homework).

 

But I also watched a couple families spend months trying to get replies from a 4th grade teacher and then spend more weeks trying to get the principal to respond to their concerns. One of the parents was a teacher in the same very small district and still couldn't get the teacher to respond to emails. Their son was not getting assignments graded and returned and the family had no idea what his grade was based on.

 

In the end, FOUR families pulled their kids out to homeschool for the last few months of school. And still the principal did not seem to think there was any problem in this classroom worth investigating.

 

In the high school for this district, I had several parents pull me (in my role as college rep) aside at a college night to mention how bad the guidance counselor was. The candidates from that school had to wait weeks and make multiple requests to get their transcripts sent to the admissions office. The school I'm working with now can turn around requests in a couple days.

 

But if the counselors can't do the basic administrative job of sending out transcripts for their seniors, are they giving any guidance that is worthy of that name? And while the parents who were professionals recognized the bad job being done, the many parents who did not have college experience (many of these being non-native English speakers or being deployed for 4-8 months of the year) were much more hard pressed to keep on top of the situation.

[Jane in NC]

But where are the parents in all this? Why do they not question it? Why don't they get suspicious if their kids do not have to put in any work in high school - do they think their kids are geniuses? Why do they not work to instill the work ethic the kids need to succeed in college?:confused:

 

In our community, many parents seem more concerned about athletic prowess than academic success. Very few kids from the local high school play college sports--and those who do are usually Division III. Yet these parents seem to see professional sports contracts in their kids' futures.

 

Parents have implicit faith in the system. According to the AP ledger, our local high school offers eight AP courses. Sounds great, right? Two sections of AP Calculus AB are offered. Sounds even better until one learns the truth. One of my son's friends who took AP Calc AB at the high school and had a "2" on the exam said that only one person had a higher score that year. There is a bean counting assurance that the school is "on track" but deeper examination raises questions.

 

This marvelous school with eight AP classes has an average SAT score that is below the national average. Instead of pretending that the students at the school are capable of doing college work, perhaps attention should be focused on bringing the students up to snuff on high school competency?

[Brenda in MA]

But where are the parents in all this? Why do they not question it? Why don't they get suspicious if their kids do not have to put in any work in high school - do they think their kids are geniuses? Why do they not work to instill the work ethic the kids need to succeed in college?:confused:

 

I think there are a few things going on here. First, I will say that I had what Charles Wallace calls a "blue chip" education in high school. I had some homework, but not a ton, but somehow, I seemed to have learned more. I think more actual teaching was done with the class time available, and I hate to say it, I think the overall quality of teachers was better 30+ years ago.

 

So you have parents who had a background like me who got an adequate education (notice I didn't say excellent), then went on to college and did well there. These folks just assume that their kids will have a similar experience. If their kids are happy in school and are getting good grades, they don't see that there might be anything wrong.

 

If they are somewhat in tune, it might not be until the child is in later elementary school that they sense there might be an issue with the quality of the education their child is receiving. At that point, many are too invested in the "system" to consider making a change. Their kids would resist and put up a stink, and the parents would risk loosing the friends they've made with their childrens' parents. It's just too uncomfortable and risky to make waves, so they stay in the system and make the best of it.

 

The other thing at play here is that the whole college application process has gotten much, much more competitive in the last 30 years. It didn't used to be too hard to get into what would now be called a "selective" college. If the parents went to such a college, and they haven't been following the trends in college admissions, they are probably ignorant of the current state of things. They just go along assuming that their child with a ps diploma and decent grades can get into a selective school fairly easily, like they did. For some, it's not until they see those first PSAT scores in the 10th grade before they realize that junior's education isn't as good as they thought. At that point, it's too late to do much about it.

 

I'm not sure what the answer is, but it will take a lot of parents waking up before much changes.

 

Brenda

Edited March 6, 2012 by Brenda in MA

[snowbeltmom]

But where are the parents in all this? Why do they not question it? Why don't they get suspicious if their kids do not have to put in any work in high school - do they think their kids are geniuses? Why do they not work to instill the work ethic the kids need to succeed in college?:confused:

 

The parents are being lied to as well, and yes, many times the parents do think that their kids are geniuses.

 

I can't tell you how many times my husband and I were told by more than one administrator when we went to enroll our children in our public school that, "The IQ of the students in our district is way above the national average." The other parents eat this stuff up and think that the kids are brilliant.

 

The PR machine in this system is amazing. Every fall each household receives a fancy brochure touting the various accolades of the school system:

1. The school is listed on Newsweek's expanded list of "top public high schools."

The brochure naturally neglects to mention the actual results of the AP tests - which are appalling.

 

2. The residents are told that the school offers more AP classes than any other district in the county.

The brochure neglects to mention that not all of the AP classes listed in the school catalog are offered every year.

 

3. This year the school received a large grant from the federal government to expand on its STEM offerings - which again received widespread publicity.

The brochure failed to mention that for at least the last two years that I have been paying attention, it has been impossible for the STEM students to graduate with credit in both AP Physics B (highest level offered) and AP Chemistry since both classes have been offered at the same time. This year the school is not even offering AP Chemistry.

 

The school publishes its high school honor roll. At least 75% of the student body is on the honor roll. Again, since the parents are told repeatedly that the IQ in the district is so much above the national average, no one thinks it odd that 3/4 of the kids are on the honor roll.

 

When it comes time for these kids to take the SAT/ACT, the results are average - low 500's for SAT and 22 for ACT. However, I can't tell you how many times I have heard a parent say, "My dd/ds is so smart, he/she never got anything lower than an "A" all four years of high school, but he/she just doesn't test well on the SAT/ACT."

 

The parents just don't get it. I am viewed as a nutcase because I don't use the p.s. I even had a neighbor tell me that, "It is a mom's job to make sure her kids are happy; it is the school's job to educate them since they are the experts."

Edited March 5, 2012 by snowbeltmom
district in the county - not country

[Jane in NC]

May I just say that I love how this thread has brought out many long term WTM boardies including a number with roots in the "old days"? A chord has been struck!

[Corraleno]

But where are the parents in all this? Why do they not question it? Why don't they get suspicious if their kids do not have to put in any work in high school - do they think their kids are geniuses? Why do they not work to instill the work ethic the kids need to succeed in college?:confused:

In the cases I mentioned, the parents simply believed what the school system told them. The parents are themselves (very) poorly educated; they are blue-collar families living in a blue-collar area — I'm probably the only person they know that is their age who went to college (and yes I'm considered quite the freak in my family :tongue_smilie:). They do not generally question authority — if they're told something by a teacher or a doctor or any other "professional," they have no reason to doubt it. These are people who were C students in crappy schools — who are they to question people who actually went to college? (That's how they see it, anyway.)

 

In the case of my older niece and nephew, yes the parents did think their kids were geniuses — the teachers explicitly told them that. The kids were tested in 2rd & 3rd grade (in group tests, administered by clueless teachers) and the parents were told that they had "genius IQs." I know that for a fact, because they called everyone they knew to tell them about it! I've known the kids since they were babies and I was seriously :blink: when they told me, but what could I say??? "There must have been some mistake, because there's no way your kids' IQs are that high"? I don't think that would have gone over very well!

 

Since their kids were in all honors classes, getting straight As, and had "genius IQs," it never occurred to them that there was anything wrong. And I have to say that, even now, they don't really get it — my nephew was extremely depressed when he dropped out of college, so they put him on anti-depressants and believe that the depression caused him to flunk out, when in fact it was flunking out (and finding out that everything he'd ever been told was a lie) that made him depressed. So they still don't blame the school system.

 

As for my younger niece, N., my sister doesn't think she's a genius, but she does think N is extremely smart, since she gets As (my sister was a B/C student in HS). My niece also does do a lot of homework — but the homework is ridiculous busywork (like Flat Stanley). My BIL was on the vocational track in HS, he never graduated, and I'd be frankly surprised if he'd ever passed Algebra. I'm sure he never even attempted Spanish. So, to him, the mere fact that someone can get an A in those subjects is evidence that they must be really really smart.

 

It's hard to expect parents, who are uneducated themselves, to somehow intuitively know that something's wrong when their kids are bringing home straight A report cards and glowing recommendations from teachers. They have nothing to compare their kids' education to — all their friends' kids are in the same crappy school system, and many of them aren't getting As and glowing report cards, so they have no reason to suspect that their own kids aren't super-smart, top-10% kids. They have no objective means of comparison.

 

Jackie

[Ester Maria]

I was raised with the exact opposite attitude. Even if we were good - and often we were truly good - there was a general tendency, if anything, to downplay that and to pass as "ordinary" what were extraordinary accomplishments in a wider context than our class.

 

We were graded on a scale which included an equal number of positive and negative grades. That meant that not only you could fail, but that there were levels to failure: there was a distinction between insufficient, and gravely insufficient, just like in positive grades there was a distinction between a C-level work and an A-level work.

To make it even better, the highest grade was rarely given. To the point that it could happen that some years in some classes in some subjects nobody had that highest grade. Can you imagine that, if all you have ever known is the system with a severe grade inflation?

If anything, we had something which was the opposite of the grade inflation. The "status" of a professor had a lot to do with how little people managed to successfully meet the highest requirements and those who were more stringent with the grades were respected more, thought of as more discerning, more nuanced and just plain better as teachers and evaluators of what has been learned. The emphasis was on the latter component: the primary responsibility for learning was on the student, not on the teacher. The teacher's job was to provide cohesion, a meaningful framework, but there was an implicit assumption that the learning is in the student's own hands, while the teacher was to evaluate what has been learned and sign a grade. A grade that he felt was right, upon his scrunity, not the grade which was "politically correct".

 

The evaluations were not reserved for formal exam sessions, although those existed as well. But something else also existed: interrogations. Oral examinations throughout the year which were typically not announced. Because you were supposed to be prepared for every lesson. You knew you could be called out, in front of everybody, right then and right there, whether for a grade or not, to demonstrate your knowledge. Few, if any, of our high school professors cared much about homework, "assignments", "projects" - it was not included in the grade, most often. But all cared about concrete demonstrated knowledge, no nonsense. Few ever "collected" homeworks to grade them, but every one of them had interrogations upon the assigned material.

 

Grades which would be considered average - heck, even below average, in this climate of grade inflation - in the US, were actually considered to be really good grades quite often: a student with mostly Bs, some Cs and some As was often a very good student.

The logic behind the grades was roughly: "an average student with an average effort has to get an average grade". Which is most definitely not supposed to be an A or a B. In the US nowadays pretty much everyone is an A or a B student, but in such a system, distinctions are lost.

 

Now, as the trends of economic inflation, so the trends of grade inflation are coming to reach us, too. But when I was a student, some distinction was still preserved and appreciated. I was thought of as a very intelligent, very intellectually sharp girl, who perhaps lacked some icing on the cake in terms of work put in her studies, but who still pulled very distinct results in terms of concrete accomplishment. And I never had an equivalent of a 4.0 GPA in high school. Why would I, after all? The highest grade is supposed to be reserved for exceptional accomplishment, not merely "excellent" accomplishment. And who could be exceptional in all areas? And would that even be a worthwhile goal? Not really. And when everyone can reach that level of recognition, something is wrong with the system.

 

Our professors, instead of misleading us about how good we are, misled us about how inadequate we were for the big scary world out there. :tongue_smilie: The results were pretty much that we rocked that world once we got there. I am probably amongst less formally accomplished, in terms of having a "career", from my class. And I still have advanced degrees completed with academic distinction, have still worked professionally with several academic areas, and it is by choice, not a lack of ability to make room for myself in that big scary competitive world, that I came to a more relaxed lifestyle, privileging children and family over many other things and working only occasionally, with more flexibility.

 

My mother raised me on a mantra that "the capable ones will find their way in the world". I agree with that, and I absolutely hold that the ultimate responsibility for everything is on each individual, while their starting circumstances should be recognized, but nothing can make or break the person as much as their own volition, will power and work on themselves can.

However, it would be hard to claim that the atmosphere of one's education does not have a tremendous impact on what their standards are going to be, what level of nuance and distinction (intellectual and otherwise) they will appreciate, and to what extent will they be able to assess their own skill.

 

We were criticized openly as a part of the educational process, because how else is one supposed to learn if not through their mistakes?, and often sent away when we were discussed amongst adults so that we would not hear all the wonderful things our parents / teachers / etc. had to say about us. But we would overhear them anyway from time to time. And sometimes they knew that. ;) And overhearing that, combined with very rare, but actually meant public praise and recognition of how good we were, did more than enough for our self esteem to be healthy... but not inflated.

 

I do the same with my children. They totally light up when I praise them... and I am able to put them down to Earth and honestly show them their mistakes and say that no, it is not good, and it needs significant more work to be good, without it breaking them in the slightest.

Praising them too much, even when they are good, ruins their character by putting too much effort on things that are "done" rather than "in the process". Many successful people have told me that one of the crucial things in their self-growth was also learning how to block too much praising they were surrounded with... and how to focus on the continuation of their growth, rather than on the complacency of the current state.

Praising them when they are not good... now that is something I am very, very against. I cannot make myself do it. I refuse to do it. I even refuse to do it for pseudo-psychological, "modern pedagogical" reasons of having Johnny feel good. If it is not good, it is not good. Telling the opposite, and continually so, is morally wretched and setting up a child for something very dangerous - a place of comfort... and every true intellectual should, ultimately, be slightly uncomfortable. Comfort of complacency is a sweet poison, intellectually, and morally, and as far as the strength to continue in life is concerned.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Ester Maria

[Chez J]

Two words: Grade inflation.

 

My niece graduated salutatorian from a school where more than 50 % of the graduating class had a 4.0. Hmmm. :glare: Grade inflation was the first thing I thought!

[8filltheheart]

In all seriousness, please share with me how you became so confident. I want that confidence!

 

For instance, you say "I knew the work he needed to complete." How did you come to the point where you felt certain you knew what he needed.

 

I research homeschooling, education, college expectations, etc. all.of.the.time and it often leaves me more confused!

 

Part of it is, unlike many of the posts in this thread, I did have a great high school education. I went to a tiny little rural high school in tobacco country. My education wasn't classical, but my teachers were good and they meant business when it came to teaching.

 

I have often wished I could have thanked my high school English teacher. I had no idea what a gem she was. I didn't even know what an anthology was in high school. We read whole novels, stacks of them. W/o any effort, I can think of some of the ones from 12th grade: Anna Karenina, Madame Bovary, Crime and Punishment, Heart of Darkness......and the list goes on. We read a novel about every 3 wks! Our grading scale was 96-100 for an A, 88-95 for a B. And very few people earned As. At bare minimum, I knew I wanted my kids to have the equivalent of the education I received. (as time has gone on, I am trying to make it superior!)

 

It also helps that my dh is an engineer. ;) We were married during college. I knew how many hrs of homework he did every single night. I knew how hard they were. If ds wanted to make it, he was going to have to work and know how to persevere.

 

It also helps that my personality is 99% stubborn. :D

[G5052]

My niece graduated salutatorian from a school where more than 50 % of the graduating class had a 4.0. Hmmm. :glare: Grade inflation was the first thing I thought!

 

Yes, our local paper lists all of the straight A and A/B students. It always amazes me how many there are on that list! In my high school, in a class of 250, maybe ten or so had straight A's in a particular semester and that was all that was published. So it was truly outstanding achievement.