s/o High school seniors - lying to American students

[GoVanGogh]

Wow, I've been spun off and quoted!

I do hope you don't mind that I quoted you and spun you off.

You have been quite the topic. ;)

I have only started a few new posts in the few years I have been on the boards, but don't think I have ever had one this popular. :001_huh: I'm a bit overwhelmed. I posted yesterday, then had a family emergency come up. I came back to... 50-some posts?! I don't know where to begin.

 

I truly appreciate everyone's comments. So much to think about.

 

I agree with 8Fill and regentrude, there can be very little comparison or collaboration, especially at the high school level. The delusion is too contagious and depressing. We have to just put our shoulders to the wheel and press on alone.

I obviously need to get to this point. :tongue_smilie:

I feel like I'm swimming against the current.

So many homeschoolers I know IRL have low expectations.

The public school parents I know rave about how wonderful their children's education is. I have had numerous people tell me, "Don't worry. When you get tired of doing that homeschool thing, you can be assured that our schools really are top-notch."

Regentrude asked where the parents are in all this.

In my community, they are so impressed with the social media town hall meetings and on-site publishing facilities that they don't look beyond the shiny cover.

I finally got the nerve to ask this lady who was raving about our schools, "So what do you base that on?" Her response, "The facility is beautiful and our test scores are some of the best in the state."

I pointed out that 72% of our high school graduates are taking remedial classes in college. Her response, "Well, my children won't be. They are straight-A students." Ironically, her son is one in our neighborhood who flunked out of college. She hasn't talked to me since, so I have no idea if she still feels our schools are top-notch.

 

About the peers: my son's two best friends from elementary schools days (when the boys attended a Montessori school) are in college and on track. But it seems that there are so many young adults in our community who are really at a loss for what to do. Admittedly some are trying--they work as waitresses or cashiers for the time being. I worry though about the kids who seem to be in downward spirals. There are too many of them. This was not how their parents envisioned their lives back in those boastful days on the soccer fields. The number of "brilliant" children in my community tipped the scales back then. What happened?? At some point in middle school, I think, it all comes apart at the seams which leads me to think that those who decry the lack of basic skills have hit the nail on the head. That coupled with the lack of intellectualism outside of school partitucarly by parents who seem to believe that their job is to see that their children are constantly entertained.

I could have written something similar.

We moved into this small neighborhood 16 years ago. All of our neighbors had young children that we have now watched grow up and... Well, as I mentioned in my initial post, it has not been pretty. Not a single one has successfully launched into adulthood.

These are children that had every advantage possible - two parent homes, affluent community with lots of opportunities, top-ranked schools.

What went wrong?

That is why Tibbie's post really struck a nerve with me.

 

The bolded part above is what really troubles me. The lack of intellectualism. My neighbors would rather buy another video game system than enroll their child in an academic summer camp at the local college. Finding like-minded peers for my son has been difficult.

(That said, we have been wonderfully blessed with mentors. My DH is an engineer and we have discovered that many of his co-workers love to talk engineering with this upcoming generation.)

 

The school publishes its high school honor roll. At least 75% of the student body is on the honor roll. Again, since the parents are told repeatedly that the IQ in the district is so much above the national average, no one thinks it odd that 3/4 of the kids are on the honor roll.

:lol: or :tongue_smilie: but that is our school district, too.

[cathmom]

I

Btw, I notice a general tendency of society in the US to consider whatever is done here the gold standard, and this country the greatest nation on Earth which could not possibly learn anything from anybody else. To the extent that people who critique various aspects of the system (be it education, or medical care, or other things) are being told to their face to go live in another country if they do not like everything here. This sentiment of superiority and infallability, of inflated national pride, pervades all aspects of society and prevents people from looking over their limited horizon (back home we would call it : over the rim of your dinner plate). Education is just one facet.

 

Applause! Applause!

 

They hated having me in a class because I would correct their misspellings on the blackboard. (Get angry with a 12yo for embarrassing you, or accept that you're a terrible speller and pick up a book? I guess the first option is correct.)

 

 

 

 

In teachers' defense, it is harder to write on the board than normally on paper. I am an excellent speller (have won spelling bees, worked as an editor, etc) and I occasionally spell things wrong while I am writing on the board. Sometimes I don't even catch it and my students point it out to me. :001_smile:

[Murphy101]

I didn't see it mentioned, but I think many parents are blinded by the tech.

I've heard many people say things like "OMG, my third grader is doing power point!" and they think MY kids are backwards because I am severely strict about computer use. My high schoolers were recently shown how to power point. And because dh and I have computer backgrounds, they are more shocked. It never occurred to these people until I said it, "If the average third grader can do it, it can't be that difficult to figure out. And it will be obsolete by the time the third grader is in the work force."

 

But most parents? They seem to equate a third grader managing to manipulate power point or an iPad with advanced learning. Sadly, not only is it not advanced, it might actually be well below mediocre.

 

I'm not anti tech. We love tech!

But tech should follow a solid educational foundation, not replace it.

[creekland]

 

I have another niece and nephew who went through the same school district and graduated from HS several years ago — honors classes all along, top grades without ever breaking a sweat, constant assurances from their parents and teachers that they were incredibly smart and could be anything they wanted to be. Nephew got a full scholarship to an excellent university based on his high GPA and class ranking — and flunked out after his first semester, completely stunned by the fact that he couldn't play videogames 24/7, only attend class when he felt like, never read the textbook, and still get As. That approach worked perfectly in high school!

 

Jackie

 

This is what happens to our students. A few do wake up in college and do well, but it's a rude awakening. Most return home thinking they can't do it and/or it's a scam.

 

They could do it if they'd been properly prepared, but they simply aren't. They're led to believe they can get all As and be top of the top simply because they can memorize info from a practice test the day before to a real test - or retake it if they didn't even get it the second time. Then they promptly empty the brain and start inputting the next memorized data.

 

When I've wanted to delay a test/quiz the #1 thing I can count on is, "I'm ready now. I just finished studying. I won't know it tomorrow! They look at me stunned when I suggest that once they "know" something, they should truly KNOW it no matter when someone gives a test/quiz. It shouldn't be a once in, test, delete from brain scenario - esp with math.

 

Granted, most of us know that without using something, the brain will get rusty, but we're not talking months or years later for a test/quiz. We're talking a day or two.

[creekland]

In our community, many parents seem more concerned about athletic prowess than academic success. Very few kids from the local high school play college sports--and those who do are usually Division III. Yet these parents seem to see professional sports contracts in their kids' futures.

 

Parents have implicit faith in the system. According to the AP ledger, our local high school offers eight AP courses. Sounds great, right? Two sections of AP Calculus AB are offered. Sounds even better until one learns the truth. One of my son's friends who took AP Calc AB at the high school and had a "2" on the exam said that only one person had a higher score that year. There is a bean counting assurance that the school is "on track" but deeper examination raises questions.

 

This marvelous school with eight AP classes has an average SAT score that is below the national average. Instead of pretending that the students at the school are capable of doing college work, perhaps attention should be focused on bringing the students up to snuff on high school competency?

 

We have this too (regarding sports). Our school had a volleyball team win states a few years back and one wrestler win states last year. Both have signs erected in their honor right when one enters the high school. The chess team won states last year too - not a single mention of it anywhere until some of the parents (myself included) complained. And there's no chess team sign. Their trophy isn't even displayed. This year they just finished 6th out of 27 teams. Naturally, that didn't garner even a mention on announcements. On the plus side, middle son finished 1st out of 176 competitors in his division. ;) I didn't expect to hear anything about that on announcements since he's the only homeschooled player on the team.

 

With colleges, a university is only as good as their sports team around here.

 

We've gotten around the AP issue. Our students get college credit via cc classes taught in the high school (for high school students only). THEN they tend to test into remedial classes at college - and no one blinks an eye. Their students are smart, after all, they have college credits already. Low SAT or state testing scores and testing into remedial classes just aren't showing it all in their eyes.

 

The vast majority of parents grew up here. They simply don't know any differently. The two gals now who are (or will be) NMF and who agree that our education "definitions" are on different planes both had parents who moved into the district - as did I. They do tons of work outside of school filling in gaps to do well on the SAT. They know the PSAT can be worth quite a bit (our school NEVER mentions that to students). But their knowledge comes from outside. The school is more than willing to take the credit. "See? ___________ did well! Students can do well from _________ if they work and try." Uh, yeah. If they work, try, and have parents who know what direction to supplement them. Getting As at our school alone sure won't do it.

[Bluegoat]

I do hope you don't mind that I quoted you and spun you off.

You have been quite the topic. ;)

I have only started a few new posts in the few years I have been on the boards, but don't think I have ever had one this popular. :001_huh: I'm a bit overwhelmed. I posted yesterday, then had a family emergency come up. I came back to... 50-some posts?! I don't know where to begin.

 

I truly appreciate everyone's comments. So much to think about.

 

I obviously need to get to this point. :tongue_smilie:

I feel like I'm swimming against the current.

So many homeschoolers I know IRL have low expectations.

The public school parents I know rave about how wonderful their children's education is. I have had numerous people tell me, "Don't worry. When you get tired of doing that homeschool thing, you can be assured that our schools really are top-notch."

Regentrude asked where the parents are in all this.

In my community, they are so impressed with the social media town hall meetings and on-site publishing facilities that they don't look beyond the shiny cover.

I finally got the nerve to ask this lady who was raving about our schools, "So what do you base that on?" Her response, "The facility is beautiful and our test scores are some of the best in the state."

I pointed out that 72% of our high school graduates are taking remedial classes in college. Her response, "Well, my children won't be. They are straight-A students." Ironically, her son is one in our neighborhood who flunked out of college. She hasn't talked to me since, so I have no idea if she still feels our schools are top-notch.

 

I could have written something similar.

We moved into this small neighborhood 16 years ago. All of our neighbors had young children that we have now watched grow up and... Well, as I mentioned in my initial post, it has not been pretty. Not a single one has successfully launched into adulthood.

These are children that had every advantage possible - two parent homes, affluent community with lots of opportunities, top-ranked schools.

What went wrong?

That is why Tibbie's post really struck a nerve with me.

 

The bolded part above is what really troubles me. The lack of intellectualism. My neighbors would rather buy another video game system than enroll their child in an academic summer camp at the local college. Finding like-minded peers for my son has been difficult.

(That said, we have been wonderfully blessed with mentors. My DH is an engineer and we have discovered that many of his co-workers love to talk engineering with this upcoming generation.)

 

:lol: or :tongue_smilie: but that is our school district, too.

 

Reading this, i find myself wondering whether there is an issue with kids really discerning whether university is the place for them or not. I mean, if they end up not going to university, why are they not considering other options? Sailors or welders or practical nursing or opening a business or whatever?

 

Not everyone really wants to have the kind of academic experience that universities offer, and we do actually need people to do those jobs in society, and they are worthwhile and respectable.

[GoVanGogh]

Reading this, i find myself wondering whether there is an issue with kids really discerning whether university is the place for them or not. I mean, if they end up not going to university, why are they not considering other options? Sailors or welders or practical nursing or opening a business or whatever?

Oh, no. That isn't an option at our public high school where nearly everyone goes on to college. Children would not dream of not going to college. They are told from Day One that they will go to college so never look at other options.

I have a large garden and have tried to hire neighbor teens to help me before. They are all lazy and against physical labor. One told me after his first day that he wouldn't be back because he could go to McDonald's and make $20 an hour. I told him good luck with that. :lol: But those expectations are typical in this community.

Ironically, we paid two certified plumbers $5,000 last summer when we had a water pipe break under our foundation. I can tell you those two men worked hard for their money, but they probably ate better than week than we did. :lol:

 

I didn't see it mentioned, but I think many parents are blinded by the tech.

I've heard many people say things like "OMG, my third grader is doing power point!" and they think MY kids are backwards because I am severely strict about computer use. My high schoolers were recently shown how to power point. And because dh and I have computer backgrounds, they are more shocked. It never occurred to these people until I said it, "If the average third grader can do it, it can't be that difficult to figure out. And it will be obsolete by the time the third grader is in the work force."

 

But most parents? They seem to equate a third grader managing to manipulate power point or an iPad with advanced learning. Sadly, not only is it not advanced, it might actually be well below mediocre.

 

I'm not anti tech. We love tech!

But tech should follow a solid educational foundation, not replace it.

Exactly!

Middle school students here get a full year learning how to use PowerPoint. The parents love it. Our neighbor's son-in-law teaches that class in another district. He raves about how "ahead of the curve" these children are. My DH likes to point out that the engineers that put man on the moon and built the first computers weren't behind the curve. Plus, PowerPoint - and any other gadget/program in use today - will likely be out of date by the time this generation enters the work force.

Ask any old-time engineer and they will say they were interested in the field because they were allowed to dig into things and take things apart. They were not simple surface users of a product like PowerPoint and iPads.

[memphispeg]

 

I have often wished I could have thanked my high school English teacher. I had no idea what a gem she was. I didn't even know what an anthology was in high school. We read whole novels, stacks of them. W/o any effort, I can think of some of the ones from 12th grade: Anna Karenina, Madame Bovary, Crime and Punishment, Heart of Darkness......and the list goes on. We read a novel about every 3 wks! Our grading scale was 96-100 for an A, 88-95 for a B. And very few people earned As. At bare minimum, I knew I wanted my kids to have the equivalent of the education I received. (as time has gone on, I am trying to make it superior!)

It also helps that my personality is 99% stubborn. :D

 

I wished I could have thanked MY English teacher as well, especially now while homeschooling. (We had 2 years of AP english which really was equivalent to 2 years of college english...we read like crazy). And my Math teacher, who made me work v. hard for my last 2 yrs. of high school. When I got to college, I was v. well prepared to do pretty well. I was never an all A student but, I got things done and enjoyed my classes. I worked out what I loved to do best and got enormous intellectual satisfaction from it.

 

My eldest dd went to ps and was Nat'l Merit and all that. In Freshman year of college, she was stunned by how poorly educated she was compared to her classmates from those elite NE prep schools. She has pushed herself tho' and is doing well now as a jr. She is a philosophy major so, studying and working hard are kind of a given....

When all is said and done on this subject, homeschooling provides us with the opportunity to develop schooling like we think it should be. It is hard and frustrating, but ultimately a worthwhile goal....

I was raised in an "education first" social sphere, as was my dh.

Being stubborn has always been my greatest asset, period.

[regentrude]

Part of it is, unlike many of the posts in this thread, I did have a great high school education.... . My education wasn't classical, but my teachers were good and they meant business when it came to teaching....

 

At bare minimum, I knew I wanted my kids to have the equivalent of the education I received. (as time has gone on, I am trying to make it superior!)

 

It also helps that my dh is an engineer. I knew how many hrs of homework he did every single night. I knew how hard they were. If ds wanted to make it, he was going to have to work and know how to persevere.

 

I could have written very similar things. I received a very good public school education (in a different country)- I would be satisfied if I could provide them with the same kind of education (almost; we will fall short in foreign languages; I was taught two foreign languages to fluency over the course of 6 and 10 years, resp.)

 

In college I majored in physics and my undergrad years were the hardest I ever worked in my life. Now I teach, and I see first hand what the students need and where they are woefully deficient.

This gives me a framework of what to expect from my kids. Which is vastly different from most other people.

[memphispeg]

I taught college for a while long ago and it has helped to generate objectives here as well. We are only doing this for 2 yrs. Regentrude - I really do wish my dd was your dc's age!!!! Scope for the imagination and all that!

[Jane in NC]

Part of it is, unlike many of the posts in this thread, I did have a great high school education. I went to a tiny little rural high school in tobacco country. My education wasn't classical, but my teachers were good and they meant business when it came to teaching.

 

 

It also helps that my personality is 99% stubborn. :D

 

The nuns who taught me were dedicated teachers. While not classical, my education had a number of classical elements because of them. I studied Latin, read good literature, was introduced to philosophy. And boy did I learn solid Mathematics in high school! Unlike many women of their generation, the nuns often had Master's degrees in their fields of expertise.

 

And the good Sisters meant business. (Snort!)

 

Also, my town had a great public library. I lived on a bus line so it was easy for me to go to the library most Saturdays in high school. We are one of those families that now pays for a library card in a larger city. Our local library stinks! When my son needed to write a read a biography when he was in elementary school, there were few choices in the system. Plenty of biographies about sports figures. But none on composers, scientists, explorers.

 

Only 99% stubborn, 8? 99.8% more likely!

 

Your comrade in stubbornness,

Jane

Edited March 6, 2012 by Jane in NC

[Charles Wallace]

Since I see Charles Wallace has popped in, I must link her post -- my absolute favorite -- about the three levels of education (see post #35).

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1467402&highlight=armand#post1467402

 

Wow, how flattering!! Thank you!!:D

[Charles Wallace]

This one is its equal!!

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3677298#poststop

 

Man, I'm feelin' the love today. Thank you!! I'm seriously flattered.

[Charles Wallace]

Yep. I have a friend who is beside herself because her ninth-grader has not yet passed an Algebra I test but still has a strong C in the class. Since she has a C, the school's attitude is that she is doing fine and they are offering my friend no guidance whatsoever on how she can help her daughter do better.

 

Oh, this is maddening. Speaking as an English teacher, I really do know how important math is -- and how many careers math proficiency opens up for you. Is there any way you can go to Kumon or some other kind of math tutoring service? I've heard raves about this man Courtney James (mathperfect.net), but I don't have personal experience.

[Charles Wallace]

Most of my extended family lives in a school district that isn't even that good. :glare:

 

My niece, N., is in all honors classes. Her Honors Algebra and Spanish I classes are a joke. I spoke to my sister over the weekend and she said N. was working on a powerpoint presentation about the holocaust. I asked if it was for her history or technology class, and she said "no, it's for English." I asked what the assignment was and she said it was to do a presentation on "how you feel about the holocaust." N's theme is that Hitler was so evil she can't imagine why no one stopped him. :blink: This is for Honors English — they don't bother with essay writing, but my sister is proud of the fact that N. can "whip out a powerpoint presentation in no time." The final grade in N's computer technology class was based on... a Flat Stanley project.

 

I have another niece and nephew who went through the same school district and graduated from HS several years ago — honors classes all along, top grades without ever breaking a sweat, constant assurances from their parents and teachers that they were incredibly smart and could be anything they wanted to be. Nephew got a full scholarship to an excellent university based on his high GPA and class ranking — and flunked out after his first semester, completely stunned by the fact that he couldn't play videogames 24/7, only attend class when he felt like, never read the textbook, and still get As. That approach worked perfectly in high school!

 

After that, his sister didn't even apply to college — her current "career plan" is to keep waitressing until she finds a husband. Nephew works at a low-paying job and feels like there's no point in trying for anything else — he says it's all a big scam anyway, so why bother?

 

And the truth is, he was scammed. All these kids are being scammed, lied to, and misled. I really worry about what's going to happen to my younger nieces when they get to college and discover that the real world bears no resemblance to their crappy school system. :(

 

Jackie

 

I am so, so sorry. Seriously. I am so, so sorry. Bottom line, no matter how much parents shriek at low grades or teachers laze out doing elementary work at the high school level because it's easier to grade a PowerPoint than it is to grade an essay, it has to be the administration who holds the line, supports academic standards, and creates a climate of challenge in the school. There's no way that that's acceptable work.

[MBM]

Wow, how flattering!! Thank you!!:D

 

Your posts are insightful and incredibly funny -- something thoughtful that makes me laugh. I hereby dub you the Erma Bombeck of educational issues.

:)

[Charles Wallace]

But where are the parents in all this? Why do they not question it? Why don't they get suspicious if their kids do not have to put in any work in high school - do they think their kids are geniuses? Why do they not work to instill the work ethic the kids need to succeed in college?:confused:

 

I'll give my thoughts on this:

 

In my teaching career, I've often had my grades questioned -- even the As. This has happened literally hundreds of times, everything from, "Why wasn't this test question right?" to "Why is my son failing second semester?" I've had my class expectations examined as if parents had suddenly turned defense attorneys in a contract dispute. Sometimes, I've been wrong -- I've written a test question poorly, for example, or miscalculated a score. That happens, and when it does, I make a point of apologizing loud and clear. I give my students extra credit when they find places *I've* screwed up. That way, they're rewarded for their careful reading of my test and its directions, and I'm encouraged even more than usual to be careful on my end.

 

That said, do you know how many times I've had a parent, student, supervisor, counselor or administrator tell me my grades were too high?

 

ONCE.

 

Kid was failing. Administration ordered me to pass him. I passed him. Mom called up later, ticked off that I'd done so. She thought he deserved to fail.

 

The parent was a teacher, for what it's worth.

 

Bottom line, parents want good news. Heck, speaking as a parent, I'm not averse to good news either, so I understand the lure.

 

Secondly, my child last year took a course in science at our B&M school. The teacher was by no means an easy grader -- she was very exacting, very precise. She would tell you what was going to be on the test, but by God, you'd better know and be able to explain it, or you wouldn't be given full credit. Fail to distinguish between meiosis I and meiosis II? Between the Calvin cycle and the Krebs? Too bad, so sad.

 

As a family, we worked our collective tushies off, especially Small Wallace. We quizzed our child, found YouTube videos, made time for homework or notes to be done as specified, verified when tests were going to be, explained directions for written work or projects, helped review the material, and then sent off SW with a hope and a prayer that things would turn out well. They did, thankfully enough, but it really did represent work for everyone.

 

This, at least to my way of thinking, was a very, very good thing.

 

This year, Small Wallace is taking a language class that's extremely easy. The teacher is very nice, but not particularly exacting. As a result, the level of work hasn't been demanding at all -- but I am concerned that Small Wallace isn't learning anything.

 

Being in a position to help SW with the material or to have a sense of what should be learned and how to learn it is enormously helpful -- but what if I were a parent with limited language skills? Then I'd mostly trust the school to do a good job.

 

Bottom line, I think it's a combination of several factors:

 

1. "Don't you dare judge my child (unless you judge him favorably)."

2. "It's hard to help my child study for a demanding class."

3. "Good news is good."

[MBM]

My son, a freshman, has to work his hinie off, and it's not busy work. His classes and teachers are tough -- all of them, even the gym teacher -- but he loves it. Math is his favorite subject, but his second favorite class is surprisingly English largely because his teacher is a lovable tyrant attempting to mold the students into thinkers who can express and defend themselves as well as question their beliefs. The combination of an intelligent, caring, demanding teacher with a group of hard-working students who desire to learn makes for a fabulous experience. My son finds the class immensely enjoyable.

 

Before the end of the year, I'm plotting to pluck a hair from this English teacher's head so that I can clone him and distribute him among the masses. The world needs more of his kind.

 

I don't think I'm deluded, and I don't think my son is a genius, but I do love his high school -- a lot. I don't think they're all failing.

[creekland]

 

I don't think I'm deluded, and I don't think my son is a genius, but I do love his high school -- a lot. I don't think they're all failing.

 

I don't think you're deluded either. I think good schools and great teachers are out there and the competitiveness of college apps at many top schools supports my thoughts.

 

The problem comes when these aren't our "average" schools. Then there's a problem for the future of our country, and many 'could-be-top' students get short changed by the 'lies' told to them.

 

If I had it to do over again, I'd have carefully selected where we moved to by the schools available, but homeschooling hasn't been all that bad. ;) It's just now that my youngest is in school and insists on staying there that I have this major regret.

[Ester Maria]

I don't think I'm deluded, and I don't think my son is a genius, but I do love his high school -- a lot. I don't think they're all failing.

There will always be excellent schools, no doubt about that. That is not the problem. The problem is that we are rapidly losing what used to be solid, average, good schools as they are undergoing a transformation into subpar schools.

 

Another problem is that the money gets in, of course, so most of those excellent schools are private, i.e. they "bought" the quality (in terms of teachers, resources, etc.) into the private sector, so there are less such public schools. This puts additional strain onto the system and furthers down the educational stratification by coinciding it with the economic stratification of the society (something you do not have in some European school systems which do have tracks and all, but the stratification is still in public schools due to academic accomplishment, rather than parental wealth - a MUCH more transparent system, in some ways), which then furthers down the vicious cycle of the poor getting poorer, the rich getting richers, the educated getting more educated and the undereducated getting uneducated.

 

A healthy school system would have a good, solid average school. It is not the outliers that matter. There will always be oases of excellence in particular districts or in the private sector, and there will always be failing oddballs which, while sad for children who end up there, are not statistically significant. It is that the average school must provide solid academics, the average which drives the system must be solid... not that kids should be doing college work, but they should also not be doing middle school work portrayed as high school work. Those average schools are merely a statistical function nowadays in many places, because they simply do not exist. You have a shocking number of failing schools, and a handful of beyond excellent ones which up the average, and a bit of schools in the strata between those, but the average as such no longer really exists in reality in many places.

[MBM]

I feel compelled to defend my son's school and all the hard-working people who make it happen. After reading some of the posts here, I find myself thinking, "That's not true." I am the defender!* :) (Btw, I'm very supportive of homeschooling and defend that choice, too, particularly when people make remarks that I don't think are accurate.)

 

Personally, regarding the state of education, I think part of the problem is that through the years, educational ideologies have changed.

 

Another problem is that people -- students, teachers, almost everyone -- are affected by technology never before a part of our lives, mostly for the worse (IMO).

 

Another huge problem is families that are not intact, that don't have the support of extended family or community. Like it or not, schools inherit the myriad problems that accompany that. They don't have the option to turn those kids away and are forced to deal with them.

 

Another problem is the idea that all students should go to college. Not all should, but so many doors are closed if they don't go and at least get a general baloney-sandwich degree. Back when I was much younger, it used to be that in some professions, if a person had worked in the field long enough and then passed a series of tests, they were then considered expert enough in that profession without the college education (the apprentice/auto-didact route). That is no longer the case, and frankly, I don't think the mandatory educational requirements have necessarily created a more intelligent individual capable of foreseeing and preventing problems.

 

But, eh, I don't know what the best answer is.

 

______________________

*Truthfully, I am waiting for the UPS man.

[8filltheheart]

There will always be excellent schools, no doubt about that. That is not the problem. The problem is that we are rapidly losing what used to be solid, average, good schools as they are undergoing a transformation into subpar schools.

 

Another problem is that the money gets in, of course, so most of those excellent schools are private, i.e. they "bought" the quality (in terms of teachers, resources, etc.) into the private sector, so there are less such public schools. This puts additional strain onto the system and furthers down the educational stratification by coinciding it with the economic stratification of the society (something you do not have in some European school systems which do have tracks and all, but the stratification is still in public schools due to academic accomplishment, rather than parental wealth - a MUCH more transparent system, in some ways), which then furthers down the vicious cycle of the poor getting poorer, the rich getting richers, the educated getting more educated and the undereducated getting uneducated.

 

A healthy school system would have a good, solid average school. It is not the outliers that matter. There will always be oases of excellence in particular districts or in the private sector, and there will always be failing oddballs which, while sad for children who end up there, are not statistically significant. It is that the average school must provide solid academics, the average which drives the system must be solid... not that kids should be doing college work, but they should also not be doing middle school work portrayed as high school work. Those average schools are merely a statistical function nowadays in many places, because they simply do not exist. You have a shocking number of failing schools, and a handful of beyond excellent ones which up the average, and a bit of schools in the strata between those, but the average as such no longer really exists in reality in many places.

 

THe fault that I see w/this argument is this part: Another problem is that the money gets in, of course, so most of those excellent schools are private, i.e. they "bought" the quality (in terms of teachers, resources, etc.) into the private sector, so there are less such public schools.

 

W/some exceptions, the vast majority of private teachers earn less in salary compared to their public school counterparts. Most private schools spend far less/child on education than public schools. $$ is not the root issue.

 

ETA: http://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=55

In 2007–08, the average annual base salary of regular full-time public school teachers ($49,600) was higher than the average annual base salary of regular full-time private school teachers ($36,300).

Edited March 6, 2012 by 8FillTheHeart

[snowbeltmom]

W/some exceptions, the vast majority of private teachers earn less in salary compared to their public school counterparts. Most private schools spend far less/child on education than public schools. $$ is not the root issue.

:iagree:

Another factor to take into consideration is that private schools are not limited to hiring individuals with a teaching degree. A chemical engineer could teach chemistry in a private school setting, but would not be "qualified" to teach in a public school.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

There will always be excellent schools, no doubt about that. That is not the problem. The problem is that we are rapidly losing what used to be solid, average, good schools as they are undergoing a transformation into subpar schools.

 

Another problem is that the money gets in, of course, so most of those excellent schools are private, i.e. they "bought" the quality (in terms of teachers, resources, etc.) into the private sector, so there are less such public schools. This puts additional strain onto the system and furthers down the educational stratification by coinciding it with the economic stratification of the society (something you do not have in some European school systems which do have tracks and all, but the stratification is still in public schools due to academic accomplishment, rather than parental wealth - a MUCH more transparent system, in some ways), which then furthers down the vicious cycle of the poor getting poorer, the rich getting richers, the educated getting more educated and the undereducated getting uneducated.

 

A healthy school system would have a good, solid average school. It is not the outliers that matter. There will always be oases of excellence in particular districts or in the private sector, and there will always be failing oddballs which, while sad for children who end up there, are not statistically significant. It is that the average school must provide solid academics, the average which drives the system must be solid... not that kids should be doing college work, but they should also not be doing middle school work portrayed as high school work. Those average schools are merely a statistical function nowadays in many places, because they simply do not exist. You have a shocking number of failing schools, and a handful of beyond excellent ones which up the average, and a bit of schools in the strata between those, but the average as such no longer really exists in reality in many places.

 

Do Italian schools still have a body of work they consider fundamental? Because that is something that I see being part of the beginning of trouble with US schools. It is one thing to say that the Great Books should not be the sole preserve of men of one color and one national background. But it is something else entirely to include inferior authors and works in an effort to up the tally of under represented groups.

 

I scratch my head at several of the works frequently listed on the AP English exam as possible works to base an essay on. Margaret Atwood's The Handmaiden's Tale, for example. It was an interesting book. But it's no more "great" literature than Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land, another science fiction work.

 

So you start with dumbing down the upper level lists of expected readings. Not adding selected under appreciated works, but really dumbing them down (imho). Then the classes in tiers below that slide downwards too.

 

One of the problems with that is when you haven't taught students how to read and understand challenging texts in one subject, then they aren't prepared to tackle upper level writting in science or history either. They don't have reading speeds or comprehension that will carry them through a new topic, especially in the stages when they don't know enough to enjoy what they are learning.

 

Similarly, the abandonment of grammar in English means that foreign language learning is far harder than it needs to be. There are plenty of rocks and shoals to flounder on with a new language without also having to learn what parts of speech are or that nouns and verbs should agree. I'm not convinced that you need to teach grammar every day every year. But there does need to be a practical foundation and a full understanding laid down well before you expect the student to start writing detailed essays.

 

I don't think this is unique to public schooled students. I could set my watch by the threads asking if you really need to learn to diagram sentences. After all, it's not like you go around diagraming much as an adult. But the question ignores the fact that this is a practice in which you are required to understand exactly what each word is and what it is doing in the sentence. Is "kicks" a verb or a noun? Diagraming is to sentence construction what scales and practice pieces are to competent music practice and what one armed drills are to swimming practice. Not something you do "for real" but an activity that makes the real goal more attainable.

 

Where is that soap box smilie? :rant:

[Ester Maria]

But I was talking about excellent private schools (the very top of the education in the country), not "just" private schools. :)

Those can allow themselves to "buy" the quality in terms of people who work them and offer them better working conditions.

 

So, when we talk about excellent schools, it is not that they do not exist. But for many people, they will never be a reality because a part of them are in the private sector, and the access to the private sector follows the lines of parental wealth (esp. at younger ages).

 

I agree that $$ per se is not the problem. Kansas city, LOL.

[8filltheheart]

But I was talking about excellent private schools (the very top of the education in the country), not "just" private schools. :)

Those can allow themselves to "buy" the quality in terms of people who work them and offer them better working conditions.

 

So, when we talk about excellent schools, it is not that they do not exist. But for many people, they will never be a reality because a part of them are in the private sector, and the access to the private sector follows the lines of parental wealth (esp. at younger ages).

 

I agree that $$ per se is not the problem. Kansas city, LOL.

 

Still don't agree. The teacher pay is still not normally competitive. The small % of schools where the reverse might be true are certainly not going to significantly impact the national quality of education. In order for your argument to be valid, private schools in general would have to be impacting the educational system at large.

[8filltheheart]

Only 99% stubborn, 8? 99.8% more likely!

 

 

:lol: Ah.....that easy to tell???? Snort!!

[MBM]

This puts additional strain onto the system and furthers down the educational stratification by coinciding it with the economic stratification of the society (something you do not have in some European school systems which do have tracks and all, but the stratification is still in public schools due to academic accomplishment, rather than parental wealth - a MUCH more transparent system, in some ways), which then furthers down the vicious cycle of the poor getting poorer, the rich getting richers, the educated getting more educated and the undereducated getting uneducated.

 

I agree that we need solid academics in the middle years. I'm not sure I can accurately state what the condition is at this moment, though, or if it's subpar, why it's subpar. Most of the accounts here are anecdotal or stats that should be verified. (My husband is a statistician so stats are a dinner topic in our house.)

 

Personally, as someone who has had three kids go through Chicago's public schools, I have seen here what you are claiming happens in European schools. The poor students who apply themselves benefit as much as the wealthy who do so. (I am not sure I agree that the European system is better, btw, but that is a different topic.)

 

The question I have is whether the problem lies more with the school and its ideologies or with society, including students, families, etc.

 

However, I think if you really want to get to the root of the problem of the rich getting richer, etc., Americans would have to have a transparent political system, which we do not have. The crux of that problem lies higher up and is political and makes SWB frown when she sees those issues brought up. (My husband has worked with Congress for three decades and does have an idea how it's run, by whom, and for whose benefit.)

 

 

_____________________________

Still waiting for the UPS man.

[8filltheheart]

I think you have hit the "core" issue.....(I didn't want to pun, but couldn't think of better phrasing.) The mandates, the micromanaging of the classroom.......they have all lead to the decay.

[Roadrunner]

I can't resist, so I am going to rumble through bunch of points here.

 

Regarding grade inflation - This is a very big problem. This is what produces kids who are ignorant of their ignorance. I have some thoughts how it could be fixed. Grade inflation exists because grades matter for admission to college. What if we took GPA out of the admissions equation? In my native country, they instituted 8 subject exams (Math, English, Physics, History, Chemistry......) a student needs to pass to graduate from school. Only after passing those exams successfully can you consider taking SAT exam (we have an equivalent). Imagine if all our high school graduates had to pass tough national subject exams. No critical thinking scores, pure knowledge of the subject. All of a sudden, it's in parents interest to have high standards in high school and realistic grading, otherwise your precious child won't do well on exams and therefore miss a spot in college. You could theoretically do a variety of things - require maybe 4 subject exams and let kids pick 4 more based on their interest.

I have seen kids from the least privileged backgrounds (extremely poor mountainous villages) score in the top percent on those exams and win full government scholarships for higher education.

 

Regarding private schools - There is a very big difference between Roxbury Latin and some private schools I see around here. Some people I know spend so much money on private schools and don't even understand that they aren't getting much worthwhile. People can no longer define what good education means. The system has been "modernized" for so many years that few can recognize a truly educated human being. I know so many people with Masters Degrees in computer science or other fields that are not educated at all.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Roadrunner

[regentrude]

In my native country, they instituted 8 subject exams (Math, English, Physics, History, Chemistry......) a student needs to pass to graduate from school. Only after passing those exams successfully can you consider taking SAT exam (we have an equivalent). Imagine if all our high school graduates had to pass tough national subject exams.

 

 

Same in my home country. If you want to attend a university, you must pass comprehensive examinations in math, science, German , one or two foreign languages, history. Some are mandatory, for others there is some choice (bio or physics, for example). Students take several written and oral exams. The written exams are open ended questions, not multiple choice.

This creates an objective measure. The exams still vary slightly by state.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

We don't have the will to institute quality exams.

 

We can't even agree on SAT vocabulary questions without asserting that a wide vocabulary is gained through exposure to a lot of words. No, there must be some secret cabal designed to keep certain groups from learning.

 

I could create a test that pulled all of its vocabulary from Booker T. Washington, Frederick Douglas, W. E. B. du Bois, Martin Luther King Jr and Malcolm X and still be told that the test was racist if the outcomes did not perfectly align themselves the way some activist thought they should.

 

The standardized tests that my kids take each year have a couple questions that always make me shake my head. There is one that has pictures of various anti-slavery or civil rights figures. You are to match the name to the picture. But there is nothing about matching the name with the decade or the actions they did. Another question asks students to label the building in which the president lives. But there are no questions on identifying the three parts of government or checks and balances. Just identifying the architecture (which in my mind is the least important piece of information).

 

We want all children to be graded above average. But we cannot bring ourselves to say that this or that set of knowledge is crucial to understanding our society or the world we live in. (And homeschoolers have serious blind spots too. I think there are too many willing to give up our literary heritage because it isn't all conforming to their flavor of Christian orthodoxy. There are too many willing to avoid the study of science except where it does not challenge their beliefs. But that is a thread slayer, so least said best. I don't even bring these topics up in my coop.)

[Roadrunner]

We don't have the will to institute quality exams.

 

We can't even agree on SAT vocabulary questions without asserting that a wide vocabulary is gained through exposure to a lot of words. No, there must be some secret cabal designed to keep certain groups from learning.

 

I could create a test that pulled all of its vocabulary from Booker T. Washington, Frederick Douglas, W. E. B. du Bois, Martin Luther King Jr and Malcolm X and still be told that the test was racist if the outcomes did not perfectly align themselves the way some activist thought they should.

 

The standardized tests that my kids take each year have a couple questions that always make me shake my head. There is one that has pictures of various anti-slavery or civil rights figures. You are to match the name to the picture. But there is nothing about matching the name with the decade or the actions they did. Another question asks students to label the building in which the president lives. But there are no questions on identifying the three parts of government or checks and balances. Just identifying the architecture (which in my mind is the least important piece of information).

 

We want all children to be graded above average. But we cannot bring ourselves to say that this or that set of knowledge is crucial to understanding our society or the world we live in. (And homeschoolers have serious blind spots too. I think there are too many willing to give up our literary heritage because it isn't all conforming to their flavor of Christian orthodoxy. There are too many willing to avoid the study of science except where it does not challenge their beliefs. But that is a thread slayer, so least said best. I don't even bring these topics up in my coop.)

 

Only we do have something called SAT subject exams. We can take it as a starting point. I know some universities require them. (Princeton at least requires two if I remember correctly).

There will always be people screaming about unfairness, but the bottom line is a national exam is a national exam. Create tough standards and go from there. Anything can be done.

I come from a country that was ranked as one of the most corrupt in the world. In less than ten years nobody is taking bribes. If you were going to tell me that corruption reforms were going to work when the government embarked on them, I would have rolled on the floor in laughter. Well, it worked.

We can certainly pick well regarded professors to write science, math and English exams.

 

I just want to add that I don't disagree with you at all. I agree with you. I just think we can fix it if we have the will to do it.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Roadrunner

[Ester Maria]

However, I think if you really want to get to the root of the problem of the rich getting richer, etc., Americans would have to have a transparent political system, which we do not have. The crux of that problem lies higher up and is political and makes SWB frown when she sees those issues brought up. (My husband has worked with Congress for three decades and does have an idea how it's run, by whom, and for whose benefit.)

Personally, I have no moral problem with the rich getting richer per se, but I insist that a "segregated" education *is* a part of the process.

I do not know personally anyone whom I would consider wealthy (from upper middle to just "plain upper" class) who, in this generation, sends their children to regular public schools. If they do, those public schools are extreme outliers in the public school system.

In my generation, on the other hand, the education of those children was not that "segregated" - or so was my impression.

 

I definitely see a shift.

My generation was still largely trusted to regular public schools. There were exceptions, but sometimes even a solid, good public school was okay for parents.

Our kids' generation, very few kids' educations are trusted to regular public schools. Either they are in extraordinary public schools, either they are in select private schools, often international ones (can you imagine what a drastic step that is - to decide you are going to educate your child in another language and culture? Okay, some of those people do not even live in their primary culture, but still, they opt not to send the children to the local schools).

 

I know people who went into the private sector after being thoroughly disillusioned with the work conditions in the public sector (overcrowded classrooms, being "dictated" too much what and how they can teach, etc.). In all of those cases, we are talking about competent teachers.

 

I am not speaking of any region or country in particular, because my own network of family and friends spreads over several countries, but everyone seems to be aware of this great shift towards the private education.

 

I had some bitter conversations with some PS teachers lately (not in the USA). They claim that they miss them. They miss the good teachers who went into the private sector, and they miss the kids of the wealthy, educated people who are now more than ever before being educated in de facto separate societies, which was still not the case a generation ago.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Ester Maria

[Ester Maria]

Do Italian schools still have a body of work they consider fundamental? Because that is something that I see being part of the beginning of trouble with US schools. It is one thing to say that the Great Books should not be the sole preserve of men of one color and one national background. But it is something else entirely to include inferior authors and works in an effort to up the tally of under represented groups.

 

I scratch my head at several of the works frequently listed on the AP English exam as possible works to base an essay on. Margaret Atwood's The Handmaiden's Tale, for example. It was an interesting book. But it's no more "great" literature than Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land, another science fiction work.

 

So you start with dumbing down the upper level lists of expected readings. Not adding selected under appreciated works, but really dumbing them down (imho). Then the classes in tiers below that slide downwards too.

 

One of the problems with that is when you haven't taught students how to read and understand challenging texts in one subject, then they aren't prepared to tackle upper level writting in science or history either. They don't have reading speeds or comprehension that will carry them through a new topic, especially in the stages when they don't know enough to enjoy what they are learning.

 

Similarly, the abandonment of grammar in English means that foreign language learning is far harder than it needs to be. There are plenty of rocks and shoals to flounder on with a new language without also having to learn what parts of speech are or that nouns and verbs should agree. I'm not convinced that you need to teach grammar every day every year. But there does need to be a practical foundation and a full understanding laid down well before you expect the student to start writing detailed essays.

 

I don't think this is unique to public schooled students. I could set my watch by the threads asking if you really need to learn to diagram sentences. After all, it's not like you go around diagraming much as an adult. But the question ignores the fact that this is a practice in which you are required to understand exactly what each word is and what it is doing in the sentence. Is "kicks" a verb or a noun? Diagraming is to sentence construction what scales and practice pieces are to competent music practice and what one armed drills are to swimming practice. Not something you do "for real" but an activity that makes the real goal more attainable.

 

Where is that soap box smilie? :rant:

Yes, I agree with all of this.

[creekland]

Our state has created 5 exams that must be passed in order to graduate (Keystone Tests). There is outcry about it all over and oodles of people complaining. Our school made sure we got in on the "testing" tests so that our kids scores would figure into the norms. (I was told this was our reason specifically.)

 

A few of the tests were field tested last year. Our school did miserably. My youngest was in the field testing for Bio. He was one of the 9% statewide that scored Advanced (and he does a TON of Bio studying outside of school). The vast majority of our school failed the test. We didn't come close to 9%. I'm not sure we had 1% Advanced. We might have as I'm not sure we had 100 students take the test. If so, then maybe 2 or 3% would have been Advanced.

 

I got to look at the Alg 1 test and I thought it looked very fair. My opinion was in the minority among teachers and our students did miserably on that one too, but I wasn't given specifics.

 

The pro? Having to do well on the tests is causing our school to have to change, but change is slow and resistance is strong. What they are doing so far hasn't helped much.

 

The cons?

 

-Some schools have reportedly opted to use the 'cheating' method on the state tests we already have (PSSA).

 

-Many schools (including ours) have cut educational time to non testing subjects (art, music, history, languages, etc) in favor of the testing subjects.

 

-Students are being taught how to fill in answers - plug them in to see if they work (multiple choice) - rather than being taught the actual math involved.

 

-Students already testing advanced are no longer challenged as all the efforts go to the students testing basic or below basic. I've actually heard teachers say, "Let the good kids read a book or something. We don't have to worry about them." Youngest son is in a 'book reading' period twice a week. Nothing else is required - no discussion, no book report, nothing. He just reads along with others who are already 'ok.'

 

-Some students aren't cut out for a deep academic future. They are forced to take these tests too. There's no option for a trade instead.

 

I've mixed feelings about creating a testing society. The pro is strong, but so are the cons. I'd love to see a better option or better implementation.

Edited March 6, 2012 by creekland

[TGHEALTHYMOM]

Btw, I notice a general tendency of society in the US to consider whatever is done here the gold standard, and this country the greatest nation on Earth which could not possibly learn anything from anybody else. To the extent that people who critique various aspects of the system (be it education, or medical care, or other things) are being told to their face to go live in another country if they do not like everything here. This sentiment of superiority and infallability, of inflated national pride, pervades all aspects of society and prevents people from looking over their limited horizon (back home we would call it : over the rim of your dinner plate). Education is just one facet.

 

:iagree:

"My dh brought a movie home recently that uncovered very well what is going on all over the US in PS, and I would recommend it but cannot remember the exact title.... Superman can't save us?"

 

I can't believe they have lottery events to pick the children who get into the superior charter schools. It is sad. We aren't even allowed to have charter schools in our state yet.

Edited March 6, 2012 by TGHEALTHYMOM

[8filltheheart]

I see relatively few pros. Teaching to the test has not yielded better quality education. It has simply forced teachers to narrow their field of teaching to the lower level knowledge-based questions that bubble tests evaluate.

 

FWIW, here if a student passes the SOL, they don't have to take final exams. THe SOLs are given a few weeks before school is out and at that pt, they spend the rest of the yr watching movies. :P Surely, individualized teacher generated final exams SHOULD be a better indicator of actual student success vs. the SOL (if I were a parent w/kids in the ps system, I would want the SOLs to be the MINIMUM standard, not the final one.)

Edited March 6, 2012 by 8FillTheHeart

[creekland]

I see relatively few pros. Teaching to the test has not yielded better quality education. It has simply forced teachers to narrow their field of teaching to the lower level knowledge-based questions that bubble tests evaluate.

 

You over-estimate what was taught here before. Teaching to the test has meant we've had to INCREASE what has been taught for those subjects. That's why I see it as a pro.

 

Our final exams were a good indicator of what our kids had learned - the finals had much more dumbed down material on them than either the PSSA or Keystone tests.

Edited March 6, 2012 by creekland

[regentrude]

I see relatively few pros. Teaching to the test has not yielded better quality education. It has simply forced teachers to narrow their field of teaching to the lower level knowledge-based questions that bubble tests evaluate.

 

It is possible to have exams that do NOT just have bubbles. As I wrote before, our high school finals were written exams with open ended questions/essays and oral examinations. No bubble tests ever.

[snowbeltmom]

-Students already testing advanced are no longer challenged as all the efforts go to the students testing basic or below basic. I've actually heard teachers say, "Let the good kids read a book or something. We don't have to worry about them." Youngest son is in a 'book reading' period twice a week. Nothing else is required - no discussion, no book report, nothing. He just reads along with others who are already 'ok.'

 

The above is a major problem, imo. When my kids were in p.s., the students were given a practice state test in October. The administration then knew which kids needed the extra help in order to pass the real tests in the spring. The students that had passed the tests in October were not a priority. My oldest was actually told by his math teacher that he could read a library book during class.

 

No Child Left Behind, however well intentioned,imo, has only further degraded the academics in the public schools. I have a number of friends who left their teaching positions in the public schools for a private school position because of NCLB.

[Roadrunner]

It is possible to have exams that do NOT just have bubbles. As I wrote before, our high school finals were written exams with open ended questions/essays and oral examinations. No bubble tests ever.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Same here!!!!

[creekland]

The above is a major problem, imo. When my kids were in p.s., the students were given a practice state test in October. The administration then knew which kids needed the extra help in order to pass the real tests in the spring. The students that had passed the tests in October were not a priority.

 

This happens here too. I agree that it's a major problem. The Keystone tests are supposed to replace our PSSA tests in a few years. Keystones are subject tests - taken after the student has had the subject. PSSA tests were more like an SAT/ACT without the rigor. We'll see if anything improves.

 

I'm already ready to give up on this ps though. It's really frustrating at times.

[GoVanGogh]

I don't think I'm deluded, and I don't think my son is a genius, but I do love his high school -- a lot.

I'm in a strange situation in this area.

We bought our home 16 years ago, back when this area was nothing but pasture land. It has since had a population boom and is a very affluent area. It is doubtful we could afford to buy into this area now.

We suspected for a long time that the house next door to us was being used for drugs, but kept thinking, "Here? No. Never. It is such a nice area. Nice schools. Nice families."

Then we woke up one day with a dead kid just feet from our house. Drug overdose. The third in less than a year, we would later find out. Seventeen local teens eventually arrested in connection with the drug deaths.

I had three federal drug agents sitting in my living room telling me to never put a child in this school system because it is so overrun with drugs.

But we are a highly ranked school district, one of the best in the state.

I still hear that day in and day out.

I'm not saying there aren't good schools out there and I would never say that you are deluded into thinking your school is the exception.

I'm just wondering what is being judged?

No one locally wants to address this.

Everyone locally sees their child and their school as the exception.

The school district washes their hands of their obligation once the child is handed the diploma.

They cite their high test scores, high graduation rates and number of students that go on to college.

But they are not interested in looking at the numbers beyond their diploma - the number of children that drop out of college or the number of our graduates that take remedial classes in college. That is what I want the community to address.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Suzanne

[Ester Maria]

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

Same here!!!!

And here. :D

 

ETA: Guys... let's show it to them? I know for sure current versions of the new graduation exams from the previous years ARE online. Maybe we could make a s/o and post examples, maybe even translate some specific open-ended questions, to show the format of those tests?

Edited March 6, 2012 by Ester Maria

[Colleen in NS]

:lurk5: for another great, encouraging thread.

 

Honestly, I ignore other people's standards and POV. It is really that simple. My oldest and I butt heads constantly when he was in high school b/c all of his friends (and their parents!!!!) told him my expectations were unrealistic and that he was being required to do to much.

...

All that to say that the daily conflict we had was my responsibility to persevere through......I am the one who made the decision to homeschool. I am the teacher. I am the guidance counselor. I am the principle. I am the parent. The standards that need to be met are mine. (though, I make my standards match what they are capable of achieving and what their personal life-goals are. It isn't a matter of me simply controlling my kids' decisions, b/c that is something I refuse to do. ...)

 

Thank you. Needed to read this.

 

Forgive me, 8, for pointing out your typo but you are the principle as well as the principal! A magnificently truthful slip! :D

 

:lol: Perfect!

 

And I agree. Ultimately you have to ignore everything around you and demand a lot of your own children, either directly or by finding classes where a lot is expected. If you use outside classes, you really have to monitor the expectations.

 

Thank you, too.

 

It also helps that my personality is 99% stubborn. :D

 

Encouraged once again, thanks!

 

In teachers' defense, it is harder to write on the board than normally on paper.

 

But shouldn't a good teacher allow the student to correct the teacher's mistakes, without getting angry at the student?

 

But we cannot bring ourselves to say that this or that set of knowledge is crucial to understanding our society or the world we live in.

 

I was reading the rhetoric section of the WTM book the other night, and this, as a defense of studying GB, stood out to me: "Great books provide historical perspective on the accepted truths of our own age; they can prevent the student from swallowing the rhetoric of modern-day orators undigested."

 

I just finished studying R&S 8 grammar - this is a major accomplishment for me, and I am moving on now to studying writing skills (and will continue R&S next year to review). When I would mention my grammar studies to some friends or family, I mostly got laughed at. Although some "got" me, including one friend who got totally fascinated with diagraming last summer when I showed him how to do it and why it helps with communication; and another friend who is European. To be laughed at is discouraging, to say the least, but I am convinced about how important it is, so I keep on and keep on teaching it to my kids.

 

(And homeschoolers have serious blind spots too. I think there are too many willing to give up our literary heritage because it isn't all conforming to their flavor of Christian orthodoxy. There are too many willing to avoid the study of science except where it does not challenge their beliefs. But that is a thread slayer, so least said best. I don't even bring these topics up in my coop.)

 

*cough* I wouldn't mind if you brought it up here...

[MBM]

Personally, I have no moral problem with the rich getting richer per se,

 

Not having an economically healthy middle class could lead to class warfare. We might already be seeing the beginnings of that.

 

...but I insist that a "segregated" education *is* a part of the process.

 

The segregation is strongly influenced by politics. We are losing our strong middle class due to political decisions and our country doesn't operate as many think we do. Politics is bought.

 

I do not know personally anyone whom I would consider wealthy (from upper middle to just "plain upper" class) who, in this generation, sends their children to regular public schools. If they do, those public schools are extreme outliers in the public school system.

 

That may be true, but I know plenty of people in Chicago who are wealthy who do send their kids to public schools primarily because the schools are good, and I wouldn't consider them extreme outliers.

 

In my generation, on the other hand, the education of those children was not that "segregated" - or so was my impression.

 

I definitely see a shift.

My generation was still largely trusted to regular public schools. There were exceptions, but sometimes even a solid, good public school was okay for parents.

Our kids' generation, very few kids' educations are trusted to regular public schools. Either they are in extraordinary public schools, either they are in select private schools, often international ones (can you imagine what a drastic step that is - to decide you are going to educate your child in another language and culture?

 

Er, I did that myself for awhile and almost went to university there, too, so, yes, I can imagine it. ;) I did it for the experience, though, not because the school was so much better than my public school back in the States.

 

Okay, some of those people do not even live in their primary culture, but still, they opt not to send the children to the local schools).

 

I know people who went into the private sector after being thoroughly disillusioned with the work conditions in the public sector (overcrowded classrooms, being "dictated" too much what and how they can teach, etc.). In all of those cases, we are talking about competent teachers.

 

I am not speaking of any region or country in particular, because my own network of family and friends spreads over several countries, but everyone seems to be aware of this great shift towards the private education.

 

I had some bitter conversations with some PS teachers lately (not in the USA). They claim that they miss them. They miss the good teachers who went into the private sector, and they miss the kids of the wealthy, educated people who are now more than ever before being educated in de facto separate societies, which was still not the case a generation ago.

 

This is mostly your limited experience, though -- what you and maybe some friends and family have experienced. It can't really speak for the entire experience, and you could be drawing conclusions that might not be true. No?

 

I just don't see the situation as being as hopeless(?) as you do and I've lived in many areas of the U.S. ... and one fun place abroad where I spoke a different language, admired the country, and ate a lot of chocolate. :)

 

It's always fun to verbally joust with you, EM, and I hope you don't find it upsetting. I always enjoy reading your opinions.

[CupOCoffee]

From I don't remember who, on page 5 of this thread:

 

It's hard to expect parents, who are uneducated themselves, to somehow intuitively know that something's wrong when their kids are bringing home straight A report cards and glowing recommendations from teachers. They have nothing to compare their kids' education to — all their friends' kids are in the same crappy school system, and many of them aren't getting As and glowing report cards, so they have no reason to suspect that their own kids aren't super-smart, top-10% kids. They have no objective means of comparison.

 

So, I am only on page 5 of 10+ on this thread, but I had to stop and ask: if a person IS one of those uneducated parents who really don't know any better, how can they help their child?

 

While I LOVE this board for making me think, I loathe this board for making me feel like an inadequate dope, robbing my children of an elite level home school education.

 

Help me out...how do *I*, a below average educated parent who never went to college, help my kids do better than I? How can *I* be sure that I am at least supplying them with a better-than-public-school-education? Oh and do it on a less than adequate budget? Yes, food and the mortgage have to come before curriculum.

 

:bigear: with an honest heart....

 

~coffee~

[regentrude]

ETA: Guys... let's show it to them? I know for sure current versions of the new graduation exams from the previous years ARE online. Maybe we could make a s/o and post examples, maybe even translate some specific open-ended questions, to show the format of those tests?

 

Great idea, EsterMaria, I opened a new thread for this topic.

[Ester Maria]

Not having an economically healthy middle class could lead to class warfare. We might already be seeing the beginnings of that.

 

The segregation is strongly influenced by politics. We are losing our strong middle class due to political decisions and our country doesn't operate as many think we do. Politics is bought.

I am not touching politics with a ten foot pole. :D

 

Mine was a general statement. I do not have a moral problem with money and with the accumulation of the wealth.

Er, I did that myself for awhile and almost went to university there, too, so, yes, I can imagine it. ;) I did it for the experience, though, not because the school was so much better than my public school back in the States.

You sent your child to an international school / went to an international school yourself (a foreign school on your own national territory, e.g. a French lycee on Manhattan), or went to school abroad (e.g. a French lycee in France)?

 

Sorry, it is for some reason not clear to me what you are referring to. :)

This is mostly your limited experience, though -- what you and maybe some friends and family have experienced. It can't really speak for the entire experience, and you could be drawing conclusions that might not be true. No?

You mean I could possibly be wrong?! :lol:

 

Of course. But I am sharing my own experience because I am too ignorant of the topic on a "scientific" level to quote numbers, know what the numbers mean, etc. So I am having a "caffe discussion" with y'all, with all the limitations and superficiality of a caffe discussion. :)

It's always fun to verbally joust with you, EM, and I hope you don't find it upsetting. I always enjoy reading your opinions.

Same here. Not upsetting at all, I am in a good mood. :tongue_smilie: