s/o High school seniors - lying to American students

[Colleen in NS]

if a person IS one of those uneducated parents who really don't know any better, how can they help their child?

 

While I LOVE this board for making me think, I loathe this board for making me feel like an inadequate dope, robbing my children of an elite level home school education.

 

Help me out...how do *I*, a below average educated parent who never went to college, help my kids do better than I? How can *I* be sure that I am at least supplying them with a better-than-public-school-education? Oh and do it on a less than adequate budget? Yes, food and the mortgage have to come before curriculum.

 

I'm in the same boat as you are, and I can tell you how I am doing it. I have no idea how my kids are doing compared to well-educated children their ages, but I do know they progress every month in their academic skills and in their content knowledge, and that what they get is FAR better than what I received.

 

Basically, I bought a copy of the WTM book and blindly followed the instructions in it (I love that the book includes frugal ways of teaching). Why? Because the following ideas from it appealed to me: reading through history and literature chronologically, reading through and experimenting in one area of science each year, learning to write via copywork/dictation and narration instead of story-writing or journal-writing, learning grammar and math systematically, memory work of "pegs" and beautiful writing, and the fact that most content work was learned via real reading instead of through textbooks. This was so vastly different from my own "education" that turned out to be worthless.

 

So, I've been blindly using the WTM as a guide for eight years. And then, I discovered these forums, and found myself attracted to discussions such as this one. I have learned SO MUCH from discussions like this, and have found posters whose ideas made me perk up, so I pay attention to them.

 

I read these discussions, or I re-read a part of WTM, and little things will catch my attention. Today I am reminded that I need to make "read-aloud" a consistent thing again in my home, despite my children growing older. I need to widen their horizons again (they've gotten too narrow for my comfort).

 

Oh, and I should also say that my using WTM as a guide is not so blind anymore - I understand now much of what is in there and why it is in there. I feel like an advertisement, but I will always be thankful for discovering that book. So anyway, that's how this badly-educated, low-income mother is doing it. I hope I am doing a good enough job. I *am* pretty confident that I am doing a far better job than our local schools, too (this based on much that I hear from other parents around here).

[MBM]

I'm in a strange situation in this area.

We bought our home 16 years ago, back when this area was nothing but pasture land. It has since had a population boom and is a very affluent area. It is doubtful we could afford to buy into this area now.

We suspected for a long time that the house next door to us was being used for drugs, but kept thinking, "Here? No. Never. It is such a nice area. Nice schools. Nice families."

Then we woke up one day with a dead kid just feet from our house. Drug overdose. The third in less than a year, we would later find out. Seventeen local teens eventually arrested in connection with the drug deaths.

I had three federal drug agents sitting in my living room telling me to never put a child in this school system because it is so overrun with drugs.

But we are a highly ranked school district, one of the best in the state.

I still hear that day in and day out.

I'm not saying there aren't good schools out there and I would never say that you are deluded into thinking your school is the exception.

I'm just wondering what is being judged?

No one locally wants to address this.

Everyone locally sees their child and their school as the exception.

The school district washes their hands of their obligation once the child is handed the diploma.

They cite their high test scores, high graduation rates and number of students that go on to college.

But they are not interested in looking at the numbers beyond their diploma - the number of children that drop out of college or the number of our graduates that take remedial classes in college. That is what I want the community to address.

 

What is being judged is the state of public eduction. That is, EM and I are discussing that, I think. She thinks it's very bad, and I think it's just sort of bad. ;)

Honestly, I am still waiting for FedEx (turns out it wasn't UPS -- doh!) to deliver my jeans. We have blustery weather here -- my huge garbage bins have been dancing about -- and I'm afraid the package might sail right on out of my yard, which will leave me pant-less. I am pretty sure nobody wants to see me walking around like that.

Meanwhile, back at the board...

[MBM]

I am not touching politics with a ten foot pole. :D

 

I think I just heard SWB breathe a sigh of relief!

 

Mine was a general statement. I do not have a moral problem with money and with the accumulation of the wealth. Same here as a long as the middle class is strong.

 

You sent your child to an international school / went to an international school yourself (a foreign school on your own national territory, e.g. a French lycee on Manhattan), or went to school abroad (e.g. a French lycee in France)?

 

No, I went abroad to study back in high school about 100 years ago. It's all about me, not the kids! Anyway, I loved it. It was a lot of fun and I ate well.

 

Sorry, it is for some reason not clear to me what you are referring to. :)

 

You mean I could possibly be wrong?! :lol:

 

Repeat after me, EM: There is the right way and my way, and they are both the same. Ha! I love using that on my kids sometimes when I feel like a tyrant.

 

Of course. But I am sharing my own experience because I am too ignorant of the topic on a "scientific" level to quote numbers, know what the numbers mean, etc. So I am having a "caffe discussion" with y'all, with all the limitations and superficiality of a caffe discussion. :)

 

I am glad you are not upset. Speaking of cafes, I am going to let my package of jeans fend for themselves and run to my favorite cafe now for coffee. Real coffee. None of that cyber stuff for me.

 

Have fun with the discussion. I'm looking forward to the test questions post!

 

:)

[8filltheheart]

To give an idea of why the entire standardized test process makes me want to bang my head against the wall, this is what I just covered w/2 of my kids. These are direct quotes from the Prentice Hall 2011 SAT prep bk......my kids found their mistakes and were laughing at the bk.

 

Unlike an independent clause, a dependent clause can't stand on its own. It needs an independent clause to latch onto. Let's look at the following sentence: Sam is very dirty and needs a bath.

This sentence has three important parts: an independent clause (Sam is very dirty), a dependent clause (and needs a bath), and a conjunction that joins them.

 

Um......no, that would not be a dependent clause. Dependent clauses require a subject. Blech.

 

This sentence is supposed to only have one mistake (baby). However, it actually contains 2 (though the missing comma is not underlined as an option).

 

Some animals, such as the hedgehog, appear quite timid but they can become fierce when they perceive a threat to their baby.

 

So what does it mean when w/in the span of a few pages errors like these are there in the midst. Jeepers.

[laughing lioness]

Yep Rosie,

Everything is repeated. It's a closed circle. It keeps repeating and repeating until someone, or some life changing event, can crack it open.

 

I think this rarely happens.

 

I don't agree with this. I think it does happen when education is a value, vs understood as a means to an end (higher marketability, better job, more pay, etc).

 

From my perspective it had to do with a shift in cultural values and entitlement.

 

How do you move beyond status quo? You hunger for something different and make the sacrifices that it takes to get different outcomes.

[Ester Maria]

Repeat after me, EM: There is the right way and my way, and they are both the same.

I once used that example with my child when we were discussing pleonasms and tautologies. :lol:

[Roadrunner]

To give an idea of why the entire standardized test process makes me want to bang my head against the wall, this is what I just covered w/2 of my kids. These are direct quotes from the Prentice Hall 2011 SAT prep bk......my kids found their mistakes and were laughing at the bk.

 

 

 

Um......no, that would not be a dependent clause. Dependent clauses require a subject. Blech.

 

This sentence is supposed to only have one mistake (baby). However, it actually contains 2 (though the missing comma is not underlined as an option).

 

 

 

So what does it mean when w/in the span of a few pages errors like these are there in the midst. Jeepers.

 

That is an excellent example why incompetent people shouldn't be hired.

However, I know of others who could do a wonderful job writing grammar portion of the national exam. Do you want to guess who I am nominating for a job? :D While we are at it, Regentrude for physics, Ester Maria for Latin, Kathy in Richmond for math...... I can keep on going :lol:

[Sebastian (a lady)]

It is possible to have exams that do NOT just have bubbles. As I wrote before, our high school finals were written exams with open ended questions/essays and oral examinations. No bubble tests ever.

 

I very clearly remember my 8th grade history teacher, who was famous for unit tests such as: "Describe the causes of the Civil War". These came on "ditto sheets" with the question taking up one line and the rest of the page blank for ones answer.

 

More lenient exams would have a dozen places, terms or names to identify.

 

She was a wonder. But I don't think there are many teachers left interested in giving and correcting such tests. Nor do I think that many administrations will back up the grades that would be given.

[G5052]

I'm in a strange situation in this area.

We bought our home 16 years ago, back when this area was nothing but pasture land. It has since had a population boom and is a very affluent area. It is doubtful we could afford to buy into this area now.

We suspected for a long time that the house next door to us was being used for drugs, but kept thinking, "Here? No. Never. It is such a nice area. Nice schools. Nice families."

Then we woke up one day with a dead kid just feet from our house. Drug overdose. The third in less than a year, we would later find out. Seventeen local teens eventually arrested in connection with the drug deaths.

I had three federal drug agents sitting in my living room telling me to never put a child in this school system because it is so overrun with drugs.

But we are a highly ranked school district, one of the best in the state.

I still hear that day in and day out.

I'm not saying there aren't good schools out there and I would never say that you are deluded into thinking your school is the exception.

I'm just wondering what is being judged?

No one locally wants to address this.

Everyone locally sees their child and their school as the exception.

The school district washes their hands of their obligation once the child is handed the diploma.

They cite their high test scores, high graduation rates and number of students that go on to college.

But they are not interested in looking at the numbers beyond their diploma - the number of children that drop out of college or the number of our graduates that take remedial classes in college. That is what I want the community to address.

 

I looked up the crime statistics at the high school and made a phone appointment with the "school resource officer" (i.e. cop-in-residence) to get his impressions.

I looked up how many local graduates have to have remedial courses in math and English at the local community college.

I looked up how many get 4's and 5's on the AP exams.

 

Still homeschooling...

[TXMary2]

I read somewhere recently that globally, U.S. student have some of the lowest test scores, yet they have the highest self esteem. I have personally observed kids who think they are all that, yet they are "dumber" than a box of rocks, to put it bluntly. It's disheartening to see that they know not, that they know not.

[Chez J]

I do not know personally anyone whom I would consider wealthy (from upper middle to just "plain upper" class) who, in this generation, sends their children to regular public schools. If they do, those public schools are extreme outliers in the public school system.

In my generation, on the other hand, the education of those children was not that "segregated" - or so was my impression.

 

Just a comment on this part of your post. We have in the DFW area three school districts where the minimum house price will run you around $400,000 to $500,000, and from there goes up into the multi-millions. The zoning does not allow ANY apartments or condos except for senior living. You MUST buy your way into these school districts. Most of the kids go to the public school. My daughter participates in sports there. We don't know any schooled kids who go to private school. They all go to the public school.

[Nscribe]

But where are the parents in all this? Why do they not question it? Why don't they get suspicious if their kids do not have to put in any work in high school - do they think their kids are geniuses? Why do they not work to instill the work ethic the kids need to succeed in college?:confused:

 

I have been struck by the number of parents who respond to hearing we homeschool by saying they wish they could but they need both incomes. They will say they know the schools are not all they wish they were but are willing to accept "good enough".

[Charles Wallace]

Telling the opposite, and continually so, is morally wretched and setting up a child for something very dangerous - a place of comfort... and every true intellectual should, ultimately, be slightly uncomfortable. Comfort of complacency is a sweet poison, intellectually, and morally, and as far as the strength to continue in life is concerned.

 

To be honest, I could not agree with you more. I honestly fear for the emotional well-being and mental health of some of the "special snowflakes" I've taught, for whom all news has always been good news. I'm not saying teachers should go up to kids and yell, "You stink and your dreams will die!" but neither should every word be one of praise or very, very gently couched criticism.

[G5052]

I honestly fear for the emotional well-being and mental health of some of the "special snowflakes" I've taught, for whom all news has always been good news. I'm not saying teachers should go up to kids and yell, "You stink and your dreams will die!" but neither should every word be one of praise or very, very gently couched criticism.

 

I always feel so sad for the college students that I teach who put on their form some very high academic goal (i.e. doctor, dentist, lawyer, PhD psychologist, foreign service officer, etc. etc.), and as I go through the semester it comes to light that...well, that goal is pretty much unrealistic with their current skill set. It makes me sad that no one has helped them set a more reasonable goal, or at least something in between that might work.

Edited March 7, 2012 by GVA

[Charles Wallace]

But I was talking about excellent private schools (the very top of the education in the country), not "just" private schools. :)

Those can allow themselves to "buy" the quality in terms of people who work them and offer them better working conditions.

 

So, when we talk about excellent schools, it is not that they do not exist. But for many people, they will never be a reality because a part of them are in the private sector, and the access to the private sector follows the lines of parental wealth (esp. at younger ages).

 

I agree that $$ per se is not the problem. Kansas city, LOL.

 

With me, it's not just the money. There's a private school in our area that offers an outstanding education, even by my picky, exacting, and elitist Great Books of the Western World Are Da Bomb standards -- but I can't work for it.

 

Why?

 

No job security.

 

As a public school teacher, I know that if I bring a deserved and demonstrably provable accusation of plagiarism against a student, for example, that this student's parent -- no matter how influential -- cannot turn to the principal and say, "Fire that teacher." The principal, however much she or he might want to do it, can't do it without going through due process. Now, that principal might make my life miserable in other ways (and yes, that has happened), but bottom line, I am safe. My family is safe.

 

Not so at a private school. Most private schools have their employees on at-will contracts, meaning that you can be fired for anything, anytime, anywhere, for any reason. For no reason. For the hell of it. Every day, I could be facing The Box. You know...as in, "Please put your things into The Box. Don't bother showing up to work on Monday."

 

Good luck to me, by the way, getting re-hired by a public school district if that happened. With the years I have and education I have, I am a definite financial liability to basically any district outside of...oh, say, Dubai. My district could hire two post-teen cuties with the ink barely dry on their teaching certificates for what they pay for one of me -- and to be honest, the two post-teens would be BETTER choices for the school district than I would, what with my elitism and all.

 

Unfortunately, this means that teaching at a private school is -- quite literally -- a luxury I can't afford.

[cathmom]

 

But shouldn't a good teacher allow the student to correct the teacher's mistakes, without getting angry at the student?

 

 

 

 

Of course! Just trying to point out that spelling mistakes on the board are not necessarily signs that the teacher is an idiot!

[Charles Wallace]

From I don't remember who, on page 5 of this thread:

 

It's hard to expect parents, who are uneducated themselves, to somehow intuitively know that something's wrong when their kids are bringing home straight A report cards and glowing recommendations from teachers. They have nothing to compare their kids' education to — all their friends' kids are in the same crappy school system, and many of them aren't getting As and glowing report cards, so they have no reason to suspect that their own kids aren't super-smart, top-10% kids. They have no objective means of comparison.

 

So, I am only on page 5 of 10+ on this thread, but I had to stop and ask: if a person IS one of those uneducated parents who really don't know any better, how can they help their child?

 

While I LOVE this board for making me think, I loathe this board for making me feel like an inadequate dope, robbing my children of an elite level home school education.

 

Help me out...how do *I*, a below average educated parent who never went to college, help my kids do better than I? How can *I* be sure that I am at least supplying them with a better-than-public-school-education? Oh and do it on a less than adequate budget? Yes, food and the mortgage have to come before curriculum.

 

:bigear: with an honest heart....

 

~coffee~

 

Here's what I do!

1. Get a library card.

2. READ. Read, read, read.

3. Don't believe the people who say that all reading is good. All reading is NOT good, any more than all eating is good.

4. Read the classics. By "read," I also mean "see" (as in Shakespeare's plays) or "hear" (as in audiobooks, especially Dickens, whose works sound GREAT read aloud!)

5. Don't read garbage. Really, Twilight does NOT whet the appetite for Jane Eyre. Twilight whets the appetite only for...Twilight.

6. Unplug the television.

7. Be that mean mom who makes her kid memorize the multiplication tables.

8. Be that mean mom who makes her kid do math problems without a calculator.

9. Be that mean mom who makes her kid memorize all fifty states, the Bill of Rights, the opening sentences to the Declaration of Independence, the Preamble, and the Gettysburg Address.

10. Be that mean mom who makes her kid memorize the significance of dates like 1066, 1492, 1564, 1607, and so on.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Charles Wallace

[creekland]

6. Unplug the television.

 

Not all TV is bad. Over the years we've supplemented our education with plenty of Documentary videos and Biographies on the History Channel, Travel Channel (those dealing with actual countries - they don't show as much as they used to), National Geographic, Science, Discovery, Documentary Channel and the like. Don't use those as the sole source as one really can't condense the "all" of something into an hour or so, but many go deeper than the usual textbooks. It's also fun when you hear your kids watching a documentary and saying, "wait, they left out _____." Then you know they were truly learning.

 

A DVR is required technology in our house. That way I can tape anything I want and we can watch it when it fits our schedule. We also now have Netflix, but not everything we want to watch is on there. Netflix has, however, had some things not on our TV. Since youngest is interested in the Republic of the Congo we got an interesting documentary about King Leopold's (of Belgium) horrid influence there: Congo: White King, Red Rubber, Black Death. We hadn't seen a thing about that in any history book, nor have I seen that one on any TV station.

 

Besides my plug for truly educational TV, if you can, travel. My kids picked up more through traveling to places than they ever did seeing them on TV or reading about them in books. Leave yourself time to read signs and learn about things in museums, national or state parks, or anywhere else interesting. Traveling need not be expensive if you have a tent and are willing to camp. We've camped all over the US in all sorts of weather except snow (had freezing temps overnight, but not snow). The learning, family time, and general experiences have been priceless.

 

Some things on my list that every kid should see/experience before they leave home include simple things like:

 

Snow (real stuff), beaches, palm trees, forests, great plains, deserts, oceans (preferably from more than one point to more truly grasp the size), tidal pools, both eastern and western mountains (they are different), fireflies, wild critters, farm animals, etc. I'm sure much more could be added from 'nature.' Then there are things of historical value, etc.

 

There's no limit or "end point" of things to be learned. One just needs to have an educational frame of mind and get started. It's not all textbooks or reading (though those bring in a significant part of some subjects). If one learns to love learning (something many students lack), then life takes on a whole new meaning.

[WishboneDawn]

Here's what I do!

1. Get a library card.

2. READ. Read, read, read.

3. Don't believe the people who say that all reading is good. All reading is NOT good, any more than all eating is good.

4. Read the classics. By "read," I also mean "see" (as in Shakespeare's plays) or "hear" (as in audiobooks, especially Dickens, whose works sound GREAT read aloud!)

5. Don't read garbage. Really, Twilight does NOT whet the appetite for Jane Eyre. Twilight whets the appetite only for...Twilight.

6. Unplug the television.

7. Be that mean mom who makes her kid memorize the multiplication tables.

8. Be that mean mom who makes her kid do math problems without a calculator.

9. Be that mean mom who makes her kid memorize all fifty states, the Bill of Rights, the opening sentences to the Declaration of Independence, the Preamble, and the Gettysburg Address.

10. Be that mean mom who makes her kid memorize the significance of dates like 1066, 1492, 1564, 1607, and so on.

I am going to print this out and post it on my fridge. My natural inclination is always to slide into passivity. This will be a good daily boot in the behind.

[Colleen in NS]

Of course! Just trying to point out that spelling mistakes on the board are not necessarily signs that the teacher is an idiot!

 

Oh, OK. I was more looking at the part of SunD's post where she talked about the teacher being angry at the 12yo for pointing out the mistake. Making the mistake is one thing, and understandable, given what you explained; getting angry at the 12yo who points it out is different. (although I suppose the attitude of the 12yo comes into consideration, too, lol)

 

I am going to print this out and post it on my fridge. My natural inclination is always to slide into passivity. This will be a good daily boot in the behind.

 

:iagree: This thread has been a great boot for me.

[memphispeg]

:iagree:This whole web-site boots me daily.

[CupOCoffee]

Here's what I do!

1. Get a library card have one, should use it more.

2. READ. Read, read, read check.

3. Don't believe the people who say that all reading is good. All reading is NOT good, any more than all eating is good. agreed

4. Read the classics. By "read," I also mean "see" (as in Shakespeare's plays) or "hear" (as in audiobooks, especially Dickens, whose works sound GREAT read aloud!) room for improvement

5. Don't read garbage. Really, Twilight does NOT whet the appetite for Jane Eyre. Twilight whets the appetite only for...Twilight. never touch the stuff, barf

6. Unplug the television. don't watch TV, ever

7. Be that mean mom who makes her kid memorize the multiplication tables. check and half check

8. Be that mean mom who makes her kid do math problems without a calculator. check, mostly; Khan Academy knocks you so far back if you make a mistake; I allow some "checking with the calculator"

9. Be that mean mom who makes her kid memorize all fifty states, the Bill of Rights, the opening sentences to the Declaration of Independence, the Preamble, and the Gettysburg Address. room for improvement

10. Be that mean mom who makes her kid memorize the significance of dates like 1066, 1492, 1564, 1607, and so on. get back to you on that one...probably needs work ;)

 

On TV, seriously, we don't watch TV, ever. I have a hard time getting ppl to accept that. It's always met with, THEM: "really? Don't you watch ______ ?" ME: "no"; THEM: "I could never live without TV".....

 

And we can't afford to pay for TV, to get those channels that have the documentaries and what not. Maybe I can find them on line; we do have high speed internet.

 

Keep the ideas coming...like I said I am listening with an open heart.

[Beth in SW WA]

Here's what I do!

1. Get a library card.

2. READ. Read, read, read.

3. Don't believe the people who say that all reading is good. All reading is NOT good, any more than all eating is good.

4. Read the classics. By "read," I also mean "see" (as in Shakespeare's plays) or "hear" (as in audiobooks, especially Dickens, whose works sound GREAT read aloud!)

5. Don't read garbage. Really, Twilight does NOT whet the appetite for Jane Eyre. Twilight whets the appetite only for...Twilight.

6. Unplug the television.

7. Be that mean mom who makes her kid memorize the multiplication tables.

8. Be that mean mom who makes her kid do math problems without a calculator.

9. Be that mean mom who makes her kid memorize all fifty states, the Bill of Rights, the opening sentences to the Declaration of Independence, the Preamble, and the Gettysburg Address.

10. Be that mean mom who makes her kid memorize the significance of dates like 1066, 1492, 1564, 1607, and so on.

 

Great list -- but I haven't needed to resort to this for my dc. Intrinsic motivation works wonders.

 

Ds knows his private high school is subpar on some levels -- so he is taking his own initiative to go the extra mile on his own. He is self-teaching comp sci via books and free online classes. He offers to present sermons at chapels knowing that he will be reading Bonhoeffer at midnight after homework & track practice (like last night). He wants more and knows how to get it. He wants to shave 6 seconds off his time and beat the state record for the quarter mile.

 

Dd14 pushed herself this year to compete in NHD. She plans/hopes/prepares to go to nationals in June. I didn't ask her to do this. She read all of Austen and Bronte in middle school. Then she read Twilight in Spanish. She pushed herself in Spanish and takes level 3-4 as a freshman. Next year she wants to start French along w/ Spanish 5. She practices piano daily without reminder so she can be prepared for worship team practice.

 

We don't spend hours memorizing our times tables.

 

Ds loves his TI-89.

 

He despises Dickens & Hawthorne. He reads CS Lewis on his own accord because it matters to his faith journey. Studying poetry in his English class makes him cringe. Months of poetry study, writing and analysis has not been pleasant for him. Yet he loves Psalms and poetic worship music which he practices daily and plays/performs weekly in various worship bands.

 

I don't make my dc memorize dates. Rather than memorize dates my dc want to visit historical sites. They read the Gettysburg Address standing where Lincoln delivered it in the heart of the battlefield. They pleaded for a trip east. We spent 2 weeks last April touring our heritage per their request.

 

Dd7 just asked me to show her Hatikvah on youtube so she can play this violin piece better.

 

Dd8 studies The Elements because she likes it. She was challenged on Sunday by our pastor to memorize Psalm 119. Her plan is to accomplish this because she wants it.

 

All this to say, intrinsic motivation is key. Instilling it is another story.

 

And TV in moderation is fine. I can't imagine a Friday night not cuddling with my older dc watching our dvr of Fringe, The Middle & Modern Family. :)

 

ETA: To the OP...

Great questions. I pseudo-'afterschool' my older dc by challenging them in some areas -- but for the most part they research college reqs and know what they need. Ds needs gentle reminders for SAT essay prep. Both older dc are influenced by a few super-intellectuals at school. Ds's closest friend is headed to West Point. Dd is competing with a friend to be valedictorian (snort). Thankfully our extended family has high standards so they know to aim high, work hard and great rewards will come.

 

I am interested in hearing more about how American standards stack up. I know people look at me like I'm crazy for homeschooling in such a "wonderful" school district. But how do you make sure your homeschool student is ready for college when you are surrounded by low standards?

Edited March 8, 2012 by Beth in SW WA
clarify