Dd10 is busted

[Jean in Newcastle]

I have been grading all day because as hard as I try, I haven't been able to keep up when other important things have taken precedence lately.

 

I have been keeping up for the most part with Dd10's grading except for her Latin grading which was in a big pile because I would always run out of time before I got to it. Today I got to it. She has not done her Latin for a month. Everyday I ask "Did you do your Latin"? and she would look straight at me and say "yes".

 

Dh took the kids out sledding today. When dd10 got home, she planned to stop long enough to drink water and then play out in the snow with the neighborhood kids until supper. I put a stop to that because she was busted.

 

I did not give her an opportunity to lie further. I just told her that the evidence told me that she had not done her work.

 

I did not yell or scream or remonstrate her. I told her that she had time to drink and to get a snack, but then we needed to talk about the Latin situation. She screamed at me that it was all MY fault and then ran into her room. Dh came to tell me that it was all MY fault because I had not personally looked at every single bit of paper she hands in and had not known that she was lying to me.

 

Dd still has not come out of her room. I'm not totally sure what to do. I can't make her do a marathon make-up session because she's my "problem student" and needs steady teaching in order to actually learn. Teaching she was supposedly getting on DVD so that it's not like I was simply throwing her to the wind. But obviously even if she did listen to the DVD (which I know she did at least most of the time because I actually saw her doing that), she still needs time to incrementally do the practice drills and worksheets.

 

I'm thinking that not getting to go out to play is part of the punishment and having to work through at least part of the summer to make up the work in time is another natural consequence. But I'm not sure if that is enough for a 10 year old or not.

[LG Gone Wild]

I have been grading all day because as hard as I try, I haven't been able to keep up when other important things have taken precedence lately.

 

I have been keeping up for the most part with Dd10's grading except for her Latin grading which was in a big pile because I would always run out of time before I got to it. Today I got to it. She has not done her Latin for a month. Everyday I ask "Did you do your Latin"? and she would look straight at me and say "yes".

 

Dh took the kids out sledding today. When dd10 got home, she planned to stop long enough to drink water and then play out in the snow with the neighborhood kids until supper. I put a stop to that because she was busted.

 

I did not give her an opportunity to lie further. I just told her that the evidence told me that she had not done her work.

 

I did not yell or scream or remonstrate her. I told her that she had time to drink and to get a snack, but then we needed to talk about the Latin situation. She screamed at me that it was all MY fault and then ran into her room. Dh came to tell me that it was all MY fault because I had not personally looked at every single bit of paper she hands in and had not known that she was lying to me.

 

Dd still has not come out of her room. I'm not totally sure what to do. I can't make her do a marathon make-up session because she's my "problem student" and needs steady teaching in order to actually learn. Teaching she was supposedly getting on DVD so that it's not like I was simply throwing her to the wind. But obviously even if she did listen to the DVD (which I know she did at least most of the time because I actually saw her doing that), she still needs time to incrementally do the practice drills and worksheets.

 

I'm thinking that not getting to go out to play is part of the punishment and having to work through at least part of the summer to make up the work in time is another natural consequence. But I'm not sure if that is enough for a 10 year old or not.

 

I have had that happen so :grouphug::grouphug::group hug: to you. I think I insisted no joy until the work was caught up - no TV, no friends, no playing, no scouts, no nuthin'

[Dustybug]

I don't really have advice, as I don't have a child that age, but I wanted to say that it is most certainly NOT your fault that she chose to lie to your face. You could have checked up on her a bit more thoroughly, but the lying is all hers to own, and don't let anyone else tell you otherwise. I'm not a fan of lying and then trying to pass the blame on to someone else. :glare:

[nmoira]

The question of her lying aside, I don't expect my 10yo to work independently on Latin, or without daily feedback. Am I correct in understanding that if she had done the work, she would have completed a month's worth of assignments with no feedback? If so, I'd set Latin aside entirely until she could get more teacher support or farm it entirely out.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

The question of her lying aside, I don't expect my 10yo to work independently on Latin, or without daily feedback. Am I correct in understanding that if she had done the work, she would have completed a month's worth of assignments with no feedback? If so, I'd set Latin aside entirely until she could get more teacher support or farm it entirely out.

 

Your DH is right that this is your fault. Ten is too young to not have her work promptly evaluated and overseen, especially for something as foreign and difficult as Latin.

 

That said, I hate that this has happened, I hate that this is your fault, and I hate that your family is dealing with what to do about a daughter who lied when Mom dropped the ball.

 

Because I have soooooo been there. (For us it was not Latin but Greek)

 

I daresay many of us have been there.

 

Nothing but sympathy, and prayers that the rest of your family's dealing with this will play out very smoothly with much love. There are lessons for everyone, and dd's lesson to never, ever lie is just as important as anything else.

 

:grouphug:

[Myeightkiddies]

Marathon Latin isn't a good idea, as you mentioned; however, you can make it extra without dragging it out all summer. Plus she will understand that there are ramifications to not doing it as scheduled.

 

Here's what I would do if in a similar situation:

 

If my school typically ended at 2pm, instead of letting her stop then I would have her do an extra assignment of Latin. If you need the break at 2pm, make 4pm be the extra assignment of Latin time. Use whatever time suits you. It should cut into her free time but not necessarily eliminate it. Just do a lesson and not several during her free time. Cutting into enough on a consistent basis will get the point across without making you a slave to do it during your free time (or time you use for dinner prep or whatever).

 

Also, during her playtime on Saturday, you could stop and do a lesson of Latin. Just doing it will be punishment. It need not be all day Saturday. Doing that isn't fair to you. Just a lesson to cut-in to her free day.

 

By doing an extra lesson in the afternoon and on Saturday, you'll make up the Latin without doing it all summer, making it a marathon, punishing yourself by making you school more than needed when you could be doing other needed things, and teaching her that there is a consequence when one procrastinates.

 

Just my thoughts.

[lllll]

..

[Impish]

My issue is w/the lying.

 

If she were having problems, she should have said so, not claimed to have had it done.

 

I've gone through the same thing w/Diva. I ask, she answers, and I trust her answers. I simply don't always have the time or the stamina to check up on every.single.assignment.every.day. And at her age, I do expect her to be able to a)complete things independently b) come to me if there's a problem, c) be honest w/me.

 

Now she complains about me checking up on her. I still don't manage it every day, RSD flare ups make life impossible to do everything, but I still hear, "You can trust me!" No, no I can't. You've proven that.

 

She was upset on the wknd b/c she wanted to go snow shovelling...but still hadn't finished her math. I heard "that's not FAIR!" Sorry, natural consequences. You chose not to get your math done when you're supposed to, this is what happens.

 

I'd take the tactic that she needs to make up this time, so therefore, time has to come from somewhere...namely her free/fun time.

[Halcyon]

I am so sorry. I would have a BIG issue with the lying, for sure. Why do you think she didn't ask for help (assuming that's the reason she didn't do her work)? Or did she not do her work because she doesn't like Latin? (That doesn't mean she shouldn't do it, just that you need to monitor her more closely).

 

It's a tough situation. I think you did leave it too long, but we've all been there. I think she was taking advantage of the fact that you were overwhelmed, and she probably KNEW you wouldn't check the work. That's not good. I think you both need to admit culpability here: her, for lying and not telling you when she was getting behind, and you for not supporting her by checking her work and following up.

 

In terms of catching up, I have no advice. :grouphug:

[Daisy]

The question of her lying aside, I don't expect my 10yo to work independently on Latin, or without daily feedback. Am I correct in understanding that if she had done the work, she would have completed a month's worth of assignments with no feedback? If so, I'd set Latin aside entirely until she could get more teacher support or farm it entirely out.

 

Daughter shouldn't have lied but I'm agreeing with the above.

[LisaKinVA]

I think we have one of those...

 

I really can't add more to the school day, so extra assignments are made up on the weekends, and during scheduled breaks. Tonight, for example, we brought unfinished work to the YMCA. I did unfinished math with one, while the other was in practice, and when the other got out, he did composition with me. This weekend is a swim meet... and school will come with my two oldest.

 

FWIW, my 9yo (almost 10) does her Latin with zero input from me. I signed her up for an on-line class. I have not had to do one thing... but she is highly self-motivated. I went the DVD route with my oldest...it rarely happened, unless I was right-on-top of him. He'll be doing an on-line class next year as well.

[Colleen in NS]

I have been grading all day because as hard as I try, I haven't been able to keep up when other important things have taken precedence lately.

 

I have been keeping up for the most part with Dd10's grading except for her Latin grading which was in a big pile because I would always run out of time before I got to it. Today I got to it. She has not done her Latin for a month. Everyday I ask "Did you do your Latin"? and she would look straight at me and say "yes".

 

Dh took the kids out sledding today. When dd10 got home, she planned to stop long enough to drink water and then play out in the snow with the neighborhood kids until supper. I put a stop to that because she was busted.

 

I did not give her an opportunity to lie further. I just told her that the evidence told me that she had not done her work.

 

I did not yell or scream or remonstrate her. I told her that she had time to drink and to get a snack, but then we needed to talk about the Latin situation. She screamed at me that it was all MY fault and then ran into her room. Dh came to tell me that it was all MY fault because I had not personally looked at every single bit of paper she hands in and had not known that she was lying to me.

 

Dd still has not come out of her room. I'm not totally sure what to do. I can't make her do a marathon make-up session because she's my "problem student" and needs steady teaching in order to actually learn. Teaching she was supposedly getting on DVD so that it's not like I was simply throwing her to the wind. But obviously even if she did listen to the DVD (which I know she did at least most of the time because I actually saw her doing that), she still needs time to incrementally do the practice drills and worksheets.

 

I'm thinking that not getting to go out to play is part of the punishment and having to work through at least part of the summer to make up the work in time is another natural consequence. But I'm not sure if that is enough for a 10 year old or not.

 

I think that for whatever topics you pick for your kids to study under your guidance, you should keep up with your grading in all of them. Part of the reason I say this is because although you say other important things have taken precedence lately, you post a lot here. I would not be able to keep up with grading my children's schoolwork (nor other duties) if I posted that often. Also, if I wasn't able to check up on my daughter's Latin every day, and had let it get behind by a month, I would not punish her at all.

 

What exactly is it that your daughter thinks is your fault? Maybe she thinks your fault is that you are not following through with her. Mine sometimes will tell me she did something, and then I find later she didn't do every single part of that something. For example, today she told me she finished her writing assignment from WWS. So, later I started to look through it, and discovered she hadn't done one part of it. She said, "Oh, I forgot, I needed help on that part!" But if I had let that grading go for a month (or an even shorter time), and if I'd accused her of lying, she would feel very hurt and unjustified, rightfully so. It *is* still my responsibility to follow up on her work, every day or every other day at least.

 

Besides, Latin isn't something you can just not grade for a month. Even with a DVD teacher, there is too much detail in Latin that can get missed or misunderstood if you are not following up with her several times per week. I would be daily/weekly questioning what she did or didn't understand in the teaching, esp. since you say she needs steady teaching and incremental drills/worksheets - it's possible there were huge chunks she didn't understand, and therefore maybe gave up on trying to do in her worksheets. Are you available to her so that she can ask you questions each day? Do you ask her what she understood from the DVD teaching? If you don't have the time to follow through with her each day or several times a week, I would not be requiring her to study Latin. And I definitely would not punish her. Talk with her about speaking up when she needs help, and not just dropping the ball, yes. Punishment for not doing a month's worth of work, no. I would be taking a good hard look at what are realistic expectations are for you to have of her, and make sure you can follow-up on those, regularly.

 

As for the Latin course now behind by a month - I would not make her work through time off - I think that is very unfair in light of all you mentioned here. I would just start back wherever she needs to start back, follow through every school day, and let the course end when it ends, even if it's a month into the next school year.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Colleen in NS

[Ester Maria]

Sigh. We have all been there, have we not? :grouphug:

 

On a positive note, she missed a month's worth of Latin rather than a semester's worth - it may seem very big, but in reality, it only means that you have to spread that extra month over the next several months along with her regular pace. It does not have to be overwhelming if you break it into small, concrete, digestible chunks - it will amount to an extra session or two weekly. Allot an extra time for this in your schedule, monitor her more strictly, and she will be fine and in line with your goals by the end of the year.

 

I would forgo the question of whose fault it is. A child will naturally blame an adult if she cannot handle that amount of freedom, while from your adult perspectivre it will all be about her laziness and deceit - the true blame probably being somewhere in the middle, with you overestimating her and her taking advantage of it. Focus on fixing what can be fixed.

[readinmom]

My issue is "lying" and "fault". The lying is the real issue, not whether or not you were a stellar grader. Lying and placing blame on another to escape responsibility is not acceptable, nor is soliciting sympathy from others about the situation.

 

I feel for you right now. She should miss out on something in order to make up the work she "already did". When she's finished, sit with her and grade it together. A lesson learned...

[FriedClams]

I had one today that had to rewrite a chapter is science notes due to messiness. They were messy, but I shouldn't have let it go a whole chapter without checking. I had them turn in each section to me and I let them do half - they had a terrific attitude despite having done the first section 4 times. (Yeah, I'm mean.) I now require the science notebook be turned in to me every day. That way I'll remember to check it and they'll remember to own it. Maybe you can build in a check like that - like no play time until I sit and check your assignments. You know it won't take long and that way you have to keep on it.

 

But, there would be consequences for lying. And takin advantage of the situation. Big ones in my house.

[Dustybug]

My issue is "lying" and "fault". The lying is the real issue, not whether or not you were a stellar grader. Lying and placing blame on another to escape responsibility is not acceptable, nor is soliciting sympathy from others about the situation.

 

I feel for you right now. She should miss out on something in order to make up the work she "already did". When she's finished, sit with her and grade it together. A lesson learned...

 

:iagree:

[ereks mom]

My issue is w/the lying.

 

If she were having problems, she should have said so, not claimed to have had it done.

 

...

 

I'd take the tactic that she needs to make up this time, so therefore, time has to come from somewhere...namely her free/fun time.

 

:iagree:

[Joker]

:grouphug: I have a 9.5 yr old and 12 yr old. I would be upset about the lying, especially for an entire month, but I would also be kicking myself for not checking up and being more involved during that month. The punishment for both of us would be the extra time it takes to make up the work ~ with me sitting next to her.

[regentrude]

I do not think a 10 y/o can be expected to work independently on Latin without daily follow-up and prompt feedback.

I would take this as a lesson for both mother and student that this is not working and try to find a way to make this better. 10 year olds need more direct supervision and can not go a month without feedback on their work. One of the basic rules of teaching is that feedback is only efficient if given promptly; so I would grade and evaluate everything on the very same day, especially with a student this young.

Not checking completion and correctness of work regularly is an open invitation to the student to cut corners. Even at college age.

Edited January 19, 2012 by regentrude

[Mimm]

Yeah, sure, maybe you should have been checking up on her more, but honestly, she's ten. If she was getting behind or not understanding something, she had the opportunity to say something every single day when you asked her about it. Regardless of why you didn't get around to it, she still lied on a daily basis.

[JudoMom]

Sigh. We have all been there, have we not? :grouphug:

 

On a positive note, she missed a month's worth of Latin rather than a semester's worth - it may seem very big, but in reality, it only means that you have to spread that extra month over the next several months along with her regular pace. It does not have to be overwhelming if you break it into small, concrete, digestible chunks - it will amount to an extra session or two weekly. Allot an extra time for this in your schedule, monitor her more strictly, and she will be fine and in line with your goals by the end of the year.

 

I would forgo the question of whose fault it is. A child will naturally blame an adult if she cannot handle that amount of freedom, while from your adult perspectivre it will all be about her laziness and deceit - the true blame probably being somewhere in the middle, with you overestimating her and her taking advantage of it. Focus on fixing what can be fixed.

 

:iagree:

[Murphy101]

The question of her lying aside, I don't expect my 10yo to work independently on Latin, or without daily feedback. Am I correct in understanding that if she had done the work, she would have completed a month's worth of assignments with no feedback? If so, I'd set Latin aside entirely until she could get more teacher support or farm it entirely out.

 

If this assessment of the situation is correct... Then I agree. Which sucks bc I get your side.;)

 

But whatever you think it should be? It just isn't for a 10 year old and wishing and demanding and expecting won't change that.

 

It isn't what you expect.

It's what you inspect.

 

If you were either too busy or not enough motivated to go over it with her, then why do you expect her to be more motivated than you?

 

If you were too busy to go over it, what would you have done if she had said each day that she wasn't done and needed help? Would you have managed to stop whatever business you had to go over the work with her? If not, then what was she supposed to do? If so, would you have done that rearranging without disgruntlement about it? Because if you put her off or act displeased, she isn't going to keep asking. That is provoking her to act contrary to basic human inclination.

 

So. I would set her down for a talking to. I would admit I hadn't kept up as I should have, but now I know she can't handle me not going over it at least every week. And I would henceforth be sure it didn't happen again. Then I would get to the heart of why she lied. For whatever reason, valid or not, she felt she couldn't be honest about this. Maybe when she came to ask for help you always seemed too busy to do it? Maybe she is frustrated because she is in a rut where everyone is done with their work except her and it makes her feel left out?

 

At this point, all either of you can do is resolve to start back up where she left off and stick to it.

 

:grouphug:

[Mommyfaithe]

I have had that happen so :grouphug::grouphug::group hug: to you. I think I insisted no joy until the work was caught up - no TV, no friends, no playing, no scouts, no nuthin'

 

I have had this happen as well....but with math. Her life was not fun for a while....sigh...

Faithe

[Starr]

She's in good company. I believe I read that SWB had a similar problem when she was a child. Making it up will be enough for her and you. I would also check her work every day with her. Bring her math, grammar, everything, sheet when she finishes it so you can see it done. Either grade it together or you can grade it later but you'll know it's done. :grouphug:

 

She'll get tired of having every subject checked. ;)

[Jean in Newcastle]

Well, I finally required dd to come out of her room, get a snack and come to the table to discuss this. She obviously did not get to go out to play further this afternoon. She also had to spend an hour with me going over some stuff that needed going over. It was review that we would have done together anyway, but not today on what was supposed to be a snow day.

 

For what it's worth, a few comments on previous posts:

 

My issue was with the lying and the lack of asking for help (something that she is very capable of doing and has done in other subjects). She hates Latin - that was why she did not follow through on her end. Despite her hating it, it is not difficult for her.

 

I take full responsibility for not giving daily feedback and for letting that get out of hand.

[Rhonda in TX]

This has happened with my DS. We sit down and talk about it. I admit that part of it is my fault for not checking up on him earlier. However, I do NOT put up with the lying. That is unacceptable. I give a bit of grace for a timeline to make up the work because I am partially responsible, but there would be consequences for the lying. (usually translates to loss of screen time here)

[2squared]

If you were either too busy or not enough motivated to go over it with her, then why do you expect her to be more motivated than you?

 

:iagree: This would totally be my 9yo. She would tell me that she doesn't need help because she would have determined that I didn't consider the subject to be important. If I don't think it's important, then it's not important to her too.

 

I would consider your situation one of those situations in which everyone advises to not allow your child to lie...as in don't ask questions that you already know the answers to. She wouldn't have lied if you had inspected her work.

Edited January 19, 2012 by 2squared

[Jean in Newcastle]

:iagree: This would totally be my 9yo. She would tell me that she doesn't need help because she would have determined that I didn't consider the subject to be important. If I don't think it's important, then it's not important to her too.

 

I would consider your situation one of those situations in which everyone advises to not allow your child to lie...as in don't ask questions that you already know the answers to. She wouldn't have lied if you had inspected her work.

 

Nonsense. My 10 year old is old enough to use a checklist of subjects. She knows that the subjects are important and that they are assigned to her. I asked her if she did the work - work that she had crossed off on her checklist as being done. I did not know the answer to the question. She lied to me. She could still have lied to me but would have been busted sooner if I had inspected her work. Not keeping up on the grading esp. in the sense of giving feedback was potentially detrimental to her understanding of Latin. It did not cause her to lie.

[justamouse]

Sigh. We have all been there, have we not? :grouphug:

 

On a positive note, she missed a month's worth of Latin rather than a semester's worth - it may seem very big, but in reality, it only means that you have to spread that extra month over the next several months along with her regular pace. It does not have to be overwhelming if you break it into small, concrete, digestible chunks - it will amount to an extra session or two weekly. Allot an extra time for this in your schedule, monitor her more strictly, and she will be fine and in line with your goals by the end of the year.

 

I would forgo the question of whose fault it is. A child will naturally blame an adult if she cannot handle that amount of freedom, while from your adult perspectivre it will all be about her laziness and deceit - the true blame probably being somewhere in the middle, with you overestimating her and her taking advantage of it. Focus on fixing what can be fixed.

:iagree::grouphug:

 

Been there. I have totally done the same thing. Some lessons we learn the hard way.

[Colleen in NS]

My issue was with the lying and the lack of asking for help (something that she is very capable of doing and has done in other subjects). She hates Latin - that was why she did not follow through on her end. Despite her hating it, it is not difficult for her.

 

My kids don't like doing certain subjects, either. But, if I've decided they need to study these particular subjects, then I believe it's up to me to make sure they do. For me it goes back to that saying, "pick your battles, and follow through." Otherwise, they get mixed signals from me about subjects they don't like ("oh, Mom tells me I need to study grammar, yet she won't check my diagrams - guess she doesn't think it's THAT important, so why bother trying/I'll see if I can slip under the radar...."). And needless friction. (so they try to slip under the radar, as kids often do, esp. with subjects they don't like; and then let's say I accuse them of sneaking around or lying. Sure, they shouldn't lie/sneak, but the problem started with ME. I often find that when I acknowledge this with my kids, their cooperation with me kicks right back in. They see that I acknowledge my fault, and they try harder to do right, too. It's fairness and justice they are after - aren't we all.:D) At least, this is how things have worked out with my kids. I used to be more strict about stuff like this, but I found that it didn't always work, and I had to look deeper to see what the deeper issues were. I think kids will work hard at pleasing, if they see that the result *truly* matters to the adult, as proven by constant checkup and help in this case; and if the adult is working towards fairness in the requirements. If it were me, I wouldn't focus on her lying - I would fix the underlying problem and help her with her Latin that you want her to study. Help her succeed. Make some hot chocolate and cookies and feed them to her while you catch up on Latin with her. Help her to get to where she doesn't feel the need to hide and lie about it anymore.

 

I take full responsibility for not giving daily feedback and for letting that get out of hand.

 

:grouphug:

Edited January 19, 2012 by Colleen in NS

[Colleen in NS]

Not keeping up on the grading esp. in the sense of giving feedback was potentially detrimental to her understanding of Latin. It did not cause her to lie.

 

Could not keeping up on grading have contributed to her feeling a need to lie, though? Sometimes kids just don't see the long-term consequences of their actions - they only see today and the need to somehow muddle through today's problems. I've seen it happen with my kids. Some things just aren't so black and white.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Could not keeping up on grading have contributed to her feeling a need to lie, though? Sometimes kids just don't see the long-term consequences of their actions - they only see today and the need to somehow muddle through today's problems. I've seen it happen with my kids. Some things just aren't so black and white.

 

No. I had been keeping up on daily grading and feedback until one month ago. She had no need to lie that first time but did. Perhaps she felt a sense of relief when she got away with it. Then there was the next day and the next day when she took advantage of having gotten away with it. She's also no dummy - she knew as well anyone that the reason I was not getting to that grading was because I needed to spend hours compiling financial data for my dh during that month. The only question I have is why she didn't see that she was going to get busted when I finished compiling the data and started having marathon grading sessions this week, including today, because school and the feedback necessary to do school is important to me.

[elfgivas]

:grouphug:

 

that's lousy, jean, i'm sorry. until i read some of the replies, i would have said that it happens to all of us at one point or another..... both the falling behind in grading and the children being less than honest.... sigh....

 

maybe separate out the issues?

issue 1. what to do about latin.

issue 2. what to do about dd lying

issue 3. how to make it possible to check work daily.

 

issue 1. what to do about latin.

what we've done historically when we get behind is to dependent on the subject. for math, we do double math (say, multiplying fractions in the morning and measuring angles in the afternoon. ie. we follow two different units simultaneously). that works well for some subjects, but my hunch is not for latin, unless you could do vocab and translation in the morning and cultural stuff in the afternoons. for languages, we go with a standard's day lesson and then add in extra flash cards/culture/computer vocab testing in the afternoons + and extra weekend day OR an extra week or month later than other things.

 

issue 2. what to do about dd lying.

sigh... you could have her bring you each subject as she finishes it and you check it while she stands there. this will be onerous for both of you, but would be a natural consequence. (ie. if i can't trust you to do it and check it later, then i will have to check it now. you will have to wait while i do that, and make any corrections before moving on.) hopefully, a few days of that and you can ask for the morning's work before lunch and check it. that would deal with issue 3 nicely, too.

 

conversely, you could have tea and chocolate with her, go over what happened in a relatively neutral fashion and come up with solutions with her. (different kids work differently; you know your dd best....). have her suggest ways of making up the work....

 

issue 3. i still sit down and check dcs work right as they finish it because i am forgetful enough and we are busy enough and stressed enough that if i don't have a hard and fast rule, it gets lost in the shuffle. so i am checking one's latin translation while she goes to get her math. then i teach her math, she does her work, and i go over dd4's oral history narration with her (from her historyatourhouse lesson) and teach her math. then i check dd3's math while she gets biology out. we go over her biology lesson and she starts it and i check dd4's math and get her started on language arts. and we go back and forth and back and forth.... if i am ever not free when one of them needs me, they go on to music practice or french on the computer....

 

the other thing i do is that if dh feels i'm not doing things the way he would, is that i am more than happy for him to teach them. that has happened twice, and he has nominated me for sainthood after each effort. ;)for you, if dh is concerned, perhaps he could take over one of your evening chores to free you up to mark each evening, or a morning chore to free you to mark each morning?

 

:grouphug: no one promised easy...

ann

 

eta: i just read your last post about compiling data for dh.... its quite a lot all at once, isn't it? i'm glad you caught it at this juncture and are able to deal with it now.

Edited January 19, 2012 by elfgivas@yahoo.com

[Myeightkiddies]

At some point, the young lady needs to take responsibility for lying. Certainly, Jean's lack of diligence in keeping the work graded helped facilitate the long-term lying, but the daughter chose to lie in the first place.

 

Jean knows where to improve to help reduce the likelihood such a thing will happen again; however, I still feel the lying was a choice that the dd made. She should be held accountable. Just because a situation allows for a lie to be done easily doesn't mean such a situation should be taken advantage of by anyone, even a child. It's an opportunity to learn. There will be many other situations in the future in which lying will be made easy-to-do. One has to learn self-control in order not to fall into such a trap.

[Murphy101]

Nonsense. My 10 year old is old enough to use a checklist of subjects. She knows that the subjects are important and that they are assigned to her. I asked her if she did the work - work that she had crossed off on her checklist as being done. I did not know the answer to the question. She lied to me. She could still have lied to me but would have been busted sooner if I had inspected her work. Not keeping up on the grading esp. in the sense of giving feedback was potentially detrimental to her understanding of Latin. It did not cause her to lie.

 

Sure it did. You set her up for it. I know you didn't mean to, but that is exactly what happened. And you have my sympathy bc I have btdt too.

 

Feedback is about more than just being sure they comprehend it. If it wasnt important enough for me to make time to grade and give feedback, then where do I get off making out like it's important enough for me to get mad at her for not making the time to do it? She is 10. But the basic principle here holds true for college students and any other working situation.

 

Imagine that your boss ir college prof gave you a checklist of work to do and you know good and well that your boss is only giving lip service to how important it is because your boss never does that work, never goes over that work, no one else ever see that work, it isnt used outside of work or in other departments, and doesn't check that it was even done. Now ask yourself... How inclined would you be to do that particular box? How POd would you be it seemingly out of the blue your boss got a burr in their bonnet over it not being done?

 

Feedback is about more than grading. It is about discussion, clarification, and value to work effort. Everyone needs to feel their work is worthwhile. And if it isn't they aren't going to do it or do it well.

[Murphy101]

I think her punishment for lying should be in proportion to your punishment for not grading.

 

I don't think she should get off the hook for it, but I simply don't see it as entirely her fault that at the age of 10 she acted according to basic human nature. I'd be furious at my dd10 for lying about her work too.

 

I figure my punishment is that I have to sit there every single day going over her work and her punishment for lying is that she has to sit next to me doing her work everyday and neither of us getting privileges until it is done.

[justamouse]

Sure it did. You set her up for it. I know you didn't mean to, but that is exactly what happened. And you have my sympathy bc I have btdt too.

 

Feedback is about more than just being sure they comprehend it. If it wasnt important enough for me to make time to grade and give feedback, then where do I get off making out like it's important enough for me to get mad at her for not making the time to do it? She is 10. But the basic principle here holds true for college students and any other working situation.

 

Imagine that your boss ir college prof gave you a checklist of work to do and you know good and well that your boss is only giving lip service to how important it is because your boss never does that work, never goes over that work, no one else ever see that work, it isnt used outside of work or in other departments, and doesn't check that it was even done. Now ask yourself... How inclined would you be to do that particular box? How POd would you be it seemingly out of the blue your boss got a burr in their bonnet over it not being done?

 

Feedback is about more than grading. It is about discussion, clarification, and value to work effort. Everyone needs to feel their work is worthwhile. And if it isn't they aren't going to do it or do it well.

 

Whoa, were you on my wall when my Dh yelled at me, those many moons ago? And it was when Ds2 was 9/10, too. It's something about that age where they trick you into thinking they're Under Control.

 

It's true, though, and I learned it the same way, Jean. But BOY was I mad at Dh for being right. :D

 

I sit with them through ALL of the work, now. All there, all around the table, all day.

[oldskool]

We just had this happen too with dd. It stinks. She had same reaction as your dd. No advice, but :grouphug:. This too shall pass. (At least I try to keep telling myself that:tongue_smilie:)

[Murphy101]

:iagree: This would totally be my 9yo. She would tell me that she doesn't need help because she would have determined that I didn't consider the subject to be important. If I don't think it's important, then it's not important to her too.

 

I would consider your situation one of those situations in which everyone advises to not allow your child to lie...as in don't ask questions that you already know the answers to. She wouldn't have lied if you had inspected her work.

 

Whoa, were you on my wall when my Dh yelled at me, those many moons ago? And it was when Ds2 was 9/10, too. It's something about that age where they trick you into thinking they're Under Control.

 

It's true, though, and I learned it the same way, Jean. But BOY was I mad at Dh for being right. :D

 

I sit with them through ALL of the work, now. All there, all around the table, all day.

 

No, I wasn't on the wall.

 

I am in the trench under hostile fire too.

 

Hello. My name is Martha and I am the mother of a soon to be 11 year old daughter.

 

And btw way, up until she walloped me with this, she was probably the most complacent, independent, eager beaver student of the bunch of them currently being home schooled.

 

ETA: I also have a 9 year old son who, of course, went through the exact same thing a few weeks later. The entire month of November was hellish. :(

Edited January 19, 2012 by Martha

[Jean in Newcastle]

Sure it did. You set her up for it. I know you didn't mean to, but that is exactly what happened. And you have my sympathy bc I have btdt too.

 

Feedback is about more than just being sure they comprehend it. If it wasnt important enough for me to make time to grade and give feedback, then where do I get off making out like it's important enough for me to get mad at her for not making the time to do it? She is 10. But the basic principle here holds true for college students and any other working situation.

 

Imagine that your boss ir college prof gave you a checklist of work to do and you know good and well that your boss is only giving lip service to how important it is because your boss never does that work, never goes over that work, no one else ever see that work, it isnt used outside of work or in other departments, and doesn't check that it was even done. Now ask yourself... How inclined would you be to do that particular box? How POd would you be it seemingly out of the blue your boss got a burr in their bonnet over it not being done?

 

Feedback is about more than grading. It is about discussion, clarification, and value to work effort. Everyone needs to feel their work is worthwhile. And if it isn't they aren't going to do it or do it well.

 

If you mean, set her up in the sense that I asked her to have integrity over a period of time longer than she had capacity for, then I would agree. If you mean that at ten years old that she can't comprehend that mom has a finite amount of mental energy and stamina and could not spend hours crunching numbers and then concentrate on grading, then I would say you are wrong. She's not that simplistic that she can't understand that something can be important to me and yet get away from me.

 

Yes, feedbook is about more than grading. (At her age I don't even give her a letter grade.) And yes, it is necessary for discussion, clarification and value to work effort. That is why I put in the work to get caught up so that we can get back to providing all of that.

 

But without going to the trouble of quoting your next post, the consequences will be just as you mentioned anyway.

[ma23peas]

Grace....for both of you...

 

Mine are 13 thru 16...I still have to check work daily most the time...we are all sinful creatures...you failed her on followup...that needs an apology...

 

I think it is kind of interesting, she is doing what you are doing...she is stolidly standing by her defense with Dad on her side..and you are more focused on her lying than your own shortcomings..we have all been there and it is more successful if we model the behavior we want....you would want her to accept responsibility and be sincere and humble in it...why don't you set the example and admit you hold 50% of the blame...then give yourself a correction...I will check your work more often to make sure you are not struggling and to give praise for good work.

Instead of telling her what she should do, ask her first why you are so disappointed in her...let her figure it out...my kids learn much better if I love them through their sins and not be the warden...they still have consequences but if they accept the responsibility they more readily accept the work needed.

 

Believe me, I Have had my moments but being stern and strict refusing to acknowledge my role in their lapses never succeeds well...we are supposed to be older and wiser...we forget life as a child....they need praise and abundant oversight :) as do we! :)

[Catwoman]

My issue was with the lying and the lack of asking for help (something that she is very capable of doing and has done in other subjects). She hates Latin - that was why she did not follow through on her end. Despite her hating it, it is not difficult for her.

 

I take full responsibility for not giving daily feedback and for letting that get out of hand.

 

Jean, I'm wondering if she learned more than you thought she did by watching the DVDs, even though she didn't complete the written work. The last month may not be a complete waste, so why not quiz her a bit and see how she does? I know that with my ds, he basically memorizes the lectures as he hears them (not in Latin, as we're not doing Latin, but in other subjects,) and he can get an A on a test without cracking the book open or answering any of the review questions. Your dd may be the same way with Latin, and the written work may be boring for her. (I hope!!!)

 

Personally, I agree completely with you that the lying is the main issue here. I think your dh was wrong to blame you for not checking her work, because I think he's missing the bigger picture, which was the dishonesty -- and not just one instance, but a month's worth of, "Yes, I did my Latin."

 

Should you have checked her work every few days to be sure she was completing it correctly? Sure, but hindsight is 20/20. You thought you could trust her because as far as you knew, Latin wasn't difficult for her, and she was telling you that she was doing the work, and wasn't asking for help.

 

You can't blame yourself for believing your own dd. She's usually honest and trustworthy, so if she said she did something, it made perfect sense that you would have believed her.

 

Sorry to hear you have to deal with this. :grouphug:

[Denisemomof4]

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:I'm sorry you're dealing with this, Jean. I know you've had issues with your dd lying before, and I understand how upsetting that is for you, as it is for any parent.

 

The Great Correction Catch Up. I hate those days with a passion! You and I both know how horrendous they are, and we vow never to allow it to happen again. But it does! We had a marathon catch up day here just last week. So you let things slip. Oh well, try harder next time. But I do think your dd needs to give up free time to work on Latin, and punishment of some sort needs to take place due to her lying to you. Extra chores so your life is a little easier??? How about Latin 7 days per week until the curriculum is finished? Otherwise it wil have to be done over the summer.

 

I'm sorry I don't have advice on the lying. We haven't gotten that one completely worked out yet. :glare:

 

Sorry you're dealing with this frustration!!!:grouphug:

[Haiku]

It's probably your fault that you didn't hold her accountable. She is, after all, only 10. HOWEVER (and this is a big however): the fact that she bald-faced lied to you is entirely her fault and lies squarely in her lap. The consequence of not doing the work is that she has now effectively lengthened her Latin school year, because she will have to work longer to get the work done. The consequence for lying, which to me is a bigger deal than simply not doing the Latin, is whatever happens in your house when someone lies.

 

Lesson learned for both of you.

 

Tara

[Jean in Newcastle]

Grace....for both of you...

 

Mine are 13 thru 16...I still have to check work daily most the time...we are all sinful creatures...you failed her on followup...that needs an apology...

 

I think it is kind of interesting, she is doing what you are doing...she is stolidly standing by her defense with Dad on her side..and you are more focused on her lying than your own shortcomings..we have all been there and it is more successful if we model the behavior we want....you would want her to accept responsibility and be sincere and humble in it...why don't you set the example and admit you hold 50% of the blame...then give yourself a correction...I will check your work more often to make sure you are not struggling and to give praise for good work.

Instead of telling her what she should do, ask her first why you are so disappointed in her...let her figure it out...my kids learn much better if I love them through their sins and not be the warden...they still have consequences but if they accept the responsibility they more readily accept the work needed.

 

Believe me, I Have had my moments but being stern and strict refusing to acknowledge my role in their lapses never succeeds well...we are supposed to be older and wiser...we forget life as a child....they need praise and abundant oversight :) as do we! :)

 

I've said from the beginning that I own my own failing in the situation. I know what to do to correct that, both spiritually and practically. So I did not post a thread asking for advice in that regard. I know what she needs to do to fulfill her responsibilities as a Latin student. I didn't ask for advice there either though I do appreciate the posts that have pointed out what I need to do as a Latin teacher even though I was aware of those things. The main reason I posted this thread was that while I didn't need help seeing that she lied, I did need some advice as to how to handle the consequence part of that. I understand that my failings had some bearing on her own. If you look at how I've handled it, there has been no stern talks, no strict consequences and no drama. She spent time crying in her room but that was totally on her own initiative.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Jean in Newcastle

[bubblegum]

I can see where not checking work for a month might enable a child to lie, but it seems that the first time the DD lied it had not been a month since the work was checked. So while not checking the work might have contributed to her continual lying it would not have been the original cause of the first lie.

I think I would use natural consequences here (no fun stuff until work is made up) and try to move on with a focus on accountability for DD.

 

Karen

Edited January 19, 2012 by bubblegum

[Jean in Newcastle]

Jean, I'm wondering if she learned more than you thought she did by watching the DVDs, even though she didn't complete the written work. The last month may not be a complete waste, so why not quiz her a bit and see how she does?

 

Yes, I will do this. I do know 100 % that she did the DVD portions because I saw her do that. I naively assumed that if she did that part of Latin that she would do the paperwork part of it too. But you are right, the last month was not a complete waste. I will quiz her a bit. I'm sure that some of the paperwork might not be necessary depending on how well she retained what she studied on the DVD.

[Haiku]

Imagine that your boss ir college prof gave you a checklist of work to do and you know good and well that your boss is only giving lip service to how important it is because your boss never does that work, never goes over that work, no one else ever see that work, it isnt used outside of work or in other departments, and doesn't check that it was even done.

 

My boss routinely leaves me lists of things to accomplish. I work nights. My boss works days. I see my boss for about 1 minute when she clocks out and I clock in. One time, and one time only, she sent me an email thanking me for a job well down after I had plowed through her list of things to do.

 

I do the things on the list because they are my job, not because I expect feedback on what I do.

 

And in college, we were routinely given work that was never collected or given feedback on. I always did the work. Why? Because I knew I needed to if I wanted to pass the class. The work wasn't for the prof. It was to help me.

 

Now, I agree that a 10 year old needs feedback, but in the situations you described in which adults would find themselves, I think it's entirely reasonable to suggest that said adults would do the work because it's what's expected of them.

 

Where I work, the "feedback" for those who don't do their work is getting fired.

 

Tara

Edited January 19, 2012 by TaraTheLiberator

[Colleen in NS]

The only question I have is why she didn't see that she was going to get busted when I finished compiling the data and started having marathon grading sessions this week...

 

Maybe she didn't think ahead? Maybe she didn't care, because she figured you weren't doing anything about it? Maybe she wasn't even thinking about the other duties you were performing? I am finding that it is a YEARS-long process to help my kids think about things other than just their own immediate concerns. I repeatedly teach them to look at long-term consequences of their decisions, but I have to be realistic and know that they will fail my expectations many times before they are adults. I have to just keep picking up, and encourage them for small improvements along the way. And the improvements do come.

 

Imagine that your boss ir college prof gave you a checklist of work to do and you know good and well that your boss is only giving lip service to how important it is because your boss never does that work, never goes over that work, no one else ever see that work, it isnt used outside of work or in other departments, and doesn't check that it was even done. Now ask yourself... How inclined would you be to do that particular box? How POd would you be it seemingly out of the blue your boss got a burr in their bonnet over it not being done?

 

This is what I was trying to get at - only it's even more magnified because we are talking about an inexperienced kid, not a more mature and experienced college student or adult who would probably just go ahead and do the work or fail/get fired.

 

If you mean that at ten years old that she can't comprehend that mom has a finite amount of mental energy and stamina and could not spend hours crunching numbers and then concentrate on grading, then I would say you are wrong. She's not that simplistic that she can't understand that something can be important to me and yet get away from me.

 

When mine were at that age, they could comprehend, but they didn't always remember/think about it/care about it, because of being wrapped up in their own concerns. Thus, trying to get away with something, without much regard to the consequences (and yes, my kids experience negative consequences).

 

The main reason I posted this thread was that while I didn't need help seeing that she lied, I did need some advice as to how to handle the consequence part of that. I understand that my failings had some bearing on her own. If you look at how I've handled it, there has been no stern talks, no strict consequences and no drama.

 

Hopefully you've gotten some advice that you find useful about potential consequences. I just posted because I thought your OP consequences *were* too harsh and strict for the big picture of your situation.

 

I'm curious if you asked your daughter why she thought it was all your fault. Sometimes when I ask my kids to articulate (after they've calmed down) thoughts such as this, I am surprised at their answers. But the conversations sure help me to fix the problems more deeply than if I'd just applied consequences without digging more deeply into their view. Don't get me wrong - I'm also, many times, very much a "Because I said so!!" Mom. My kids think I'm much stricter than many other Moms they know. But that strictness doesn't always work - I'm finding as they grow into adolescence and teen years that my molds don't fit very well on them anymore.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Colleen in NS

[Jean in Newcastle]

I just posted because I thought your OP consequences *were* too harsh and strict for the big picture of your situation.

 

 

The only immediate consequence that was mentioned in the OP was that she wasn't able to go out again to play after having been out sledding for an hour and a half already. The other consequence I mentioned - that of having to work some in the summer is not an imposed consequence as such. It's a possible natural consequence of having lost ground and not being able to finish the Latin book by our normal stopping time. I'm not sure how much that ground that would be because as Catwoman pointed out, she has had some Latin instruction in the past month because of doing the DVDs so might not have as much to make up. You really think that staying in for the rest of the afternoon was too harsh and strict for having lied daily to me for a month?