Narcissism: You all have given me a lot to think about-

[QuirkyKapers]

How do you set good boundaries, say no, but not totally alienate someone who is narcissistic?

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

Move far away, if possible. If not, don't answer the phone when they call if you're not in the mood for the drama. Boundaries mean nothing to my narcissistic parent.

[mommaduck]

How do you set good boundaries, say no, but not totally alienate someone who is narcissistic?

 

:lol: I'm not laughing at you. I've been there. It's not possible.

 

Move far away, if possible. If not, don't answer the phone when they call if you're not in the mood for the drama. Boundaries mean nothing to my narcissistic parent.

 

Exactly. I've even known NPD parents that will move towards a child or try to manipulate a child to move near them (happened in our case).

[melissel]

:lol: I'm not laughing at you. I've been there. It's not possible.

 

I agree. I think this is one of those kinds of relationships where you can only act to protect your own family and your own boundaries. You cannot control how the narcissist will react, ever. You can only manage your own end.

[Bang!Zoom!]

I read the original posting and immediately the word: "MOVE" came into my mind.:auto:

 

I see the follow-up post agrees w/that. I'm howling and laughing and my daughter wants to know "wuz up ma".

 

It just so happens that I'm visiting one of my fave web spots from a lady, and she has this nifty little workbook free for download in her post today.

 

Sometimes, the idea of "setting boundaries" means different things to different people. For some it's offensive, some defensive behavior and thinking.

 

Myself, I think boundaries are a matter of self-respect and honoring yourself and limits.

 

Soo...blah blah blah, and here's a link to that little workbook.

 

http://www.susannahconway.com/2011/12/a-little-something-for-you/#comments

[BMW]

I have to deal with an NPD ex-h... and now he has taken a lot of power with my oldest two sons that they are beginning to parrot him... NOT FUN!

 

I have had to insist on email only, unless a true emergency. I don't answer calls, I check voice mail. I have had to begin enforcing boundaries with my oldest two sons, not because I believe they have NPD, but because they repeat a lot of things said by ex and they have begun to insult and challenge me.

 

I try not to engage in conversations regarding the past, regarding money, regarding my personal business... I have to keep it shallow or I will get bitten. Honestly, once the dog bites a few times, you stop petting the dog!

 

If they start to engage, in an email that is unnecessary, with an insult, etc. I choose to completely ignore that because nothing I can say will make a difference anyway. It's much harder in person, so I have been coaching with someone who realizes what is going on and learning to say, "I am not going to discuss this with you." (That is for using with my sons... ) When it comes to a personal meeting with ex, I try to keep it short, have somewhere to go, someone who needs something, basically anything I can use to keep the meeting as short as possible to decrease the verbal exchange...

 

Best wishes, it's a very difficult thing to deal with.

[elfgivas]

How do you set good boundaries, say no, but not totally alienate someone who is narcissistic?

 

setting boundaries is your job.

 

how they take them is up to them, and more likely to be based on manipulating you to get what they want than any sense of true alienation.

 

so you set your boundaries, and never, ever relax them or give in; it will just make it much worse.

 

and then they do what they do.

(they will anyway)

 

:grouphug:

ann

[QuirkyKapers]

setting boundaries is your job.

 

how they take them is up to them, and more likely to be based on manipulating you to get what they want than any sense of true alienation.

 

so you set your boundaries, and never, ever relax them or give in; it will just make it much worse.

 

and then they do what they do.

(they will anyway)

 

:grouphug:

ann

 

That is what I was thinking, is there ever true alienation or is it just a reaction to manipulate and they will just come around when something is needed?

[MinivanMom]

I agree. I think this is one of those kinds of relationships where you can only act to protect your own family and your own boundaries. You cannot control how the narcissist will react, ever. You can only manage your own end.

 

I agree. Do what you have to do to protect your family. If it alienates the narcissist, so be it. I also recommend moving (to an unlisted address in another state ;)).

[QuirkyKapers]

Thanks all! Avoidance has been one technique I have used in dealing with this situations. Maybe I should start a spin off thread: Things I have learned from a narcissist. I am sure we all have tips of how we cope.

[melissel]

That is what I was thinking, is there ever true alienation or is it just a reaction to manipulate and they will just come around when something is needed?

 

It may be true alienation, based on the simple fact that they finally realize that they cannot get what they want from you. In that case, you aren't worth much to them, so they won't bother anymore. (And they'll blame you for it, because their minds do not work correctly!) But in the end, it doesn't matter. What matters is protecting yourself. This is something that my poor mother has not yet learned!

[Trish]

How do you set good boundaries, say no, but not totally alienate someone who is narcissistic?

 

Well. They're not worried about alienating YOU?

 

No. Well. I'd just set the boundaries, then.

 

:grouphug:

 

Patti

[Impish]

Our only saving grace is living in a different province.

 

If we lived within driving distance, things would have completely exploded a long time ago, resulting in having to make some incredibly hard decisions (basically, mother/marriage, not both) for either of us.

 

Neither Wolf nor I could handle our mothers in close range.

[myfunnybunch]

You set good boundaries.

 

You say no.

 

Then you leave it up to them to either alienate themselves or not.

 

A wise woman once told me: All you can do is be honest. Honest about your needs, your wants, your boundaries. Either they will stay, and things will get better. Or they will go, and things will get better.

 

:grouphug:

 

Cat

[MamaT]

We moved 500 miles away. :001_smile:

[Tigger]

For me it's remembering first and foremost that boundaries are for me to define what my limits are and my values are since boundaries won't change them. Boundaries aren't "rules" you can make them follow - they're guidelines you create for yourself and your limits.

 

Once you have that on the front burner in your mind, the rest is a lot easier!

 

I've learned boundaries really are much easier to decide upon when they're based on your values, if that makes sense. What do you value and why? When you know that, your boundaries fall into place fairly easily because they're not rules, they're who you are and what you value in your life for your peace of mind and comfort.

 

An example we can all pretty much understand - if we homeschool between 8:30 and noon, we value the time and effort we're making and our children are making in their learning. We set that time aside each day for them to have as time to learn and do their lessons, therefore, during that time, when NPD wants to call and chat, we simply do not answer the phone when they call and expect we'll talk to them because we value the time with our children and their educational needs. An NPD may not like this, may actually ramp up the calls to try to MAKE YOU answer the phone, may leave disturbing, guilt-ridden messages on voice mail, and may even rage at you for not paying attention when they want you to....but it is your time, your phone and your boundary - whether stated to them or not (you don't have to tell the NPD your boundary).....if you continue to hold firm with your boundary, eventually they'll give up (but not always).

 

As the person with NPD realizes you've started to protect yourself, they'll do what is called an extinction burst - ramp up their efforts to "make you go back" to the way you were - sort of like when someone is frustrated by a slow elevator and they keep pushing the button....the elevator doesn't come any quicker, but it's a release for them - NPD's do the same thing when they don't like how you change to protect yourself from their demands for compliance to meet their needs.

 

Oh....ETA: one thing I've learned the hard way - don't give them too much of your emotions to work with - that is, don't tell them when they hurt you or anger you or frustrate the heck out of you, they're masters at turning it back on you, or saving it for ammunition later, when they need it. Basically learn to practice just the facts, not the feelings with them - they're emotional vampires who will drain you dry if you allow them to!

[happi duck]

We were once over 2000 miles away...it was bliss! Now we are one town over and we never answer the phone.

[happi duck]

For me it's remembering first and foremost that boundaries are for me to define what my limits are and my values are since boundaries won't change them. Boundaries aren't "rules" you can make them follow - they're guidelines you create for yourself and your limits.

 

Once you have that on the front burner in your mind, the rest is a lot easier!

 

I've learned boundaries really are much easier to decide upon when they're based on your values, if that makes sense. What do you value and why? When you know that, your boundaries fall into place fairly easily because they're not rules, they're who you are and what you value in your life for your peace of mind and comfort.

 

...

 

Oh....ETA: one thing I've learned the hard way - don't give them too much of your emotions to work with - that is, don't tell them when they hurt you or anger you or frustrate the heck out of you, they're masters at turning it back on you, or saving it for ammunition later, when they need it. Basically learn to practice just the facts, not the feelings with them - they're emotional vampires who will drain you dry if you allow them to!

 

Great post, esp the bolded

[Sweetpeach]

I really appreciate this thread and thank you to the OP who linked the workbook for 2012.

I used to be one of those people who never met a stranger . . . always saw the best in the people, gave people the benefit of the doubt, tried my best to accomodate wishes and wants.

It has taken a few years with some nasty bumps to realize I am pathetic at drawing boundaries. I'm either "all in" with somebody or "all out" with the door slammed shut. I hope 2012 is my year for substantial personal growth when it comes to relationships.

Warmly, Tricia

[WTMCassandra]

Tigger clearly knows whereof she speaks. Fabulous post--makes me miss the days of rep.

 

In our case, 3K miles helped a LOT.

[gardenmom5]

I agree. I think this is one of those kinds of relationships where you can only act to protect your own family and your own boundaries. You cannot control how the narcissist will react, ever. You can only manage your own end.

:iagree:

 

this book on boundaries should help you recognize what is appropriate or not. the NPD person in your life will not recognize boundaries (except in regards to their own wishes), and if confronted over being out of bounds, will turn it around on you every. single. time. all you can do is control your own limits -and if the NPD person gets angry, well, ces't la vie.

 

dh was perpetually cheerful with my grandmother. turned every single one of her dark clouds inside out to be sunny, and it made her insane. she left him alone. (e.g. oh, you've been to your oncologist? and you don't have any cancer after five years, that's so wonderful. she could not get off the phone with him fast enough.)

[gardenmom5]

Oh....ETA: one thing I've learned the hard way - don't give them too much of your emotions to work with - that is, don't tell them when they hurt you or anger you or frustrate the heck out of you, they're masters at turning it back on you, or saving it for ammunition later, when they need it. Basically learn to practice just the facts, not the feelings with them - they're emotional vampires who will drain you dry if you allow them to!

 

aka: anything you say *will* be used against you. (that includes positive expressions of emotion.)

 

I read that on harpieschild's blog, and was wow, someone else who articulated it the same way as I did.

Edited December 21, 2011 by gardenmom5

[Zebra]

 

As the person with NPD realizes you've started to protect yourself, they'll do what is called an extinction burst - ramp up their efforts to "make you go back" to the way you were - sort of like when someone is frustrated by a slow elevator and they keep pushing the button....the elevator doesn't come any quicker, but it's a release for them - NPD's do the same thing when they don't like how you change to protect yourself from their demands for compliance to meet their needs.

 

 

Wow to this whole post, but WOW to the above! I have struggled with an NPD person in my life, and it's been absolutely a nightmare. This is a HUGE lightbulb for me! It seemed like once I put boundaries in place (reasonable boundaries that any normal person would have put into place years ago!) things got much worse. And, it completely reminds me of pushing the elevator button over and over again. I just need to continue to be firm and stick it out.

 

All I know is that you have to ACCEPT that you will never have a normal relationship with the person with NPD. That, was a huge step for me. Once you actually accept it(which isn't easy!) you can start to move forward. You start to see the reality of the situation. It's hard, but freeing.

 

Thanks so much for this!

[2cents]

My sister is a malignant narcissist. Take it from me, you can't set boundaries. They see any attempts at that as a challenge and will hound and manipulate you until you cave. They don't recognize limits and will do whatever it takes to satisfy their own needs-no matter how much it hurts or destroys others.

 

Based on my own experience, I'd recommend you put as much distance as possible between myself and anyone who is a narcissist as humanly possible. They are not rehabilitatable and will give you nothing but years of misery. Life is too short to be spent trying to second guess people with that disorder. Cut your losses and go NO CONTACT. We went NO CONTACT and life is great. I wish I had done it sooner. :grouphug:

[AuntieM]

Ah, you can do the first part, but hang on for the second part. If you take control of interactions (as you need to), they will absolutely feel alienated, it is an inevitable result. In fact, it is your barometer for knowing that you are actually being successful in setting the boundaries.

 

Aside, I have a question - are most NPDs passive/aggressive as part of the NPD package, or is that a nice little bonus that I have to deal with? To me, I can soak up a lot of bad vibes from being willing to confront the NPD in my life. But when this person goes p/a, I am not able to engage. How do y'all handle that part of it?

[QuirkyKapers]

That is a good question about the PA behavior. I know that is part of what I deal with. My favorite is when we are with other people and something is brought up that I said. It is told in an oh so sweet voice and all kindness but it really is a put down or it is something you shared but would never have told an entire group of people.

[Cassy]

That is a good question about the PA behavior. I know that is part of what I deal with. My favorite is when we are with other people and something is brought up that I said. It is told in an oh so sweet voice and all kindness but it really is a put down or it is something you shared but would never have told an entire group of people.

 

Ouch, yes. My mother used to do that, and not always sweetly or kindly either. She died three years ago, so I don't have to deal with it any more, but the scars linger. This thread brings back a lot of memories of hurt, frustration and anger.

 

:grouphug: to all of you who are still dealing with it.

 

Cassy

[JVA]

Sorry to be the bearer of 'bad' news but the ONLY way to 'work' with our NPD family member was to eventually CUT CONTACT - akin to moving. It was a difficult decision- made by my dh as this person was on his side of the family- but we had no other recourse after decades of trying a variety of avenues. Nothing worked. They would NOT respect our boundaries, which were VERY reasonable.

People with NPD are unreasonable, think the 'problem' is YOU not THEM, and that they are entitled to ..........just about whatever they want.

In our experience, setting boundaries can be lonely and label you as 'uncooperative, a black sheep of the family or inflexible or mean'. Get ready for that.

This has been our reality.

[SailorMom]

The whole point is to alienate them :)

You need to get as far away from any narcissist as you can as soon as you can.

Narcissists do not respect boundaries, and when you set them, they set out to destroy you.

[Tigger]

 

As the person with NPD realizes you've started to protect yourself, they'll do what is called an extinction burst - ramp up their efforts to "make you go back" to the way you were - sort of like when someone is frustrated by a slow elevator and they keep pushing the button....the elevator doesn't come any quicker, but it's a release for them - NPD's do the same thing when they don't like how you change to protect yourself from their demands for compliance to meet their needs.

 

 

Wow to this whole post, but WOW to the above! I have struggled with an NPD person in my life, and it's been absolutely a nightmare. This is a HUGE lightbulb for me! It seemed like once I put boundaries in place (reasonable boundaries that any normal person would have put into place years ago!) things got much worse. And, it completely reminds me of pushing the elevator button over and over again. I just need to continue to be firm and stick it out.

 

All I know is that you have to ACCEPT that you will never have a normal relationship with the person with NPD. That, was a huge step for me. Once you actually accept it(which isn't easy!) you can start to move forward. You start to see the reality of the situation. It's hard, but freeing.

 

Thanks so much for this!

 

It's taken me years to get to where I am now with my MIL (who is BPD AND NPD - nasty malignant combo)...I'm glad some of the things I've offered from experience are helpful - there is a lot out there that is great for resources for reading, like Harpy's Child and a bunch of books....at this point I've read so many of them it's hard to pick the best ones, but the one that really struck me was The Wizard of Oz and Other Narcissists - it's clear and concise.

[Tigger]

aka: anything you say *will* be used against you. (that includes positive expressions of emotion.)

 

I read that on harpieschild's blog, and was wow, someone else who articulated it the same way as I did.

 

Oh yeah! Any emotion is added to their arsenal to use against you when they see fit.

[Tigger]

Ah, you can do the first part, but hang on for the second part. If you take control of interactions (as you need to), they will absolutely feel alienated, it is an inevitable result. In fact, it is your barometer for knowing that you are actually being successful in setting the boundaries.

 

Aside, I have a question - are most NPDs passive/aggressive as part of the NPD package, or is that a nice little bonus that I have to deal with? To me, I can soak up a lot of bad vibes from being willing to confront the NPD in my life. But when this person goes p/a, I am not able to engage. How do y'all handle that part of it?

 

Medium chill....you're there, but not really - more like how you treat an acquaintance you don't hate, but don't really like all that much. That's what works for me anyway.

[Joanne]

As the person with NPD realizes you've started to protect yourself, they'll do what is called an extinction burst - ramp up their efforts to "make you go back" to the way you were - sort of like when someone is frustrated by a slow elevator and they keep pushing the button....the elevator doesn't come any quicker, but it's a release for them - NPD's do the same thing when they don't like how you change to protect yourself from their demands for compliance to meet their needs.

 

At the end of our first custody battle, xh had lost. I had gained; not only did I "pass" the psychological eval, I had learned why my marriage had been what it was, why the post divorce years had been the way they were, why the battle had unfolded as it did. I had grown in confidence, in autonomy, in having healthy space.

 

The mediation at the end included a letter sent by the professional mediator. It was very, very clear; parent and attorney ONLY, no friends, spouses, etc. And cash or cashier's check ONLY.

 

What did xh show up with? His wife (former mistress ;)) and a personal check. :lol:

[OnTheBrink]

We moved 500 miles away. :001_smile:

 

I moved 2,000.

 

As everyone has previously said, you can't set boundaries with them. It just doesn't work.

[annandatje]

..Aside, I have a question - are most NPDs passive/aggressive as part of the NPD package, or is that a nice little bonus that I have to deal with? To me, I can soak up a lot of bad vibes from being willing to confront the NPD in my life. But when this person goes p/a, I am not able to engage. How do y'all handle that part of it?

 

:bigear:

 

My NPD is passive aggressive.

[Lilymax]

 

An example we can all pretty much understand - if we homeschool between 8:30 and noon, we value the time and effort we're making and our children are making in their learning. We set that time aside each day for them to have as time to learn and do their lessons, therefore, during that time, when NPD wants to call and chat, we simply do not answer the phone when they call and expect we'll talk to them because we value the time with our children and their educational needs. An NPD may not like this, may actually ramp up the calls to try to MAKE YOU answer the phone, may leave disturbing, guilt-ridden messages on voice mail, and may even rage at you for not paying attention when they want you to....but it is your time, your phone and your boundary - whether stated to them or not (you don't have to tell the NPD your boundary).....if you continue to hold firm with your boundary, eventually they'll give up (but not always).

 

 

 

Oh man...this is my mom! We have a weird situation where she is in town a couple weeks, then out of town a month or so, then back again, etc. When she is out of town, she refuses call me. Why? Because I stopped answering the phone when she called during school time...and now she's "punishing" me with passive-aggression by not contacting me at all.

 

I had to because every time she called during school time, I'd tell her we were in the middle of school work and I only had a minute. Naturally, she didn't respect that, and would drone on and on about nothing, and I got tired of it. So I stopped answering the phone. She would leave the MOST pathetic voice mails you ever heard...either dripping with agony or sharp and snippy.

 

Both of which made me ever so eager to return her calls, don't you know...:glare:

 

Of course, after a few weeks of this, she saw that I meant business and to her that was total and complete rejection. My sisters tell me that she is mortally wounded and hell will freeze over before she ever calls me again.

 

Fine. I have better things to do with my time than play games with a narcissist.

 

I call when I have to...today, I needed to know what their plans were for their trip here for Christmas. When she answered the phone, she sounded like she was dying. I was all chipper, and like, "Oh, are you sick or something?" and of course, she wasn't.

 

At the end of the conversation, she moaned, "Thank you for calling to see how we're doing..." I hear from my sisters that she vents to them pretty much daily about how shocked she is that I don't care enough, and I quote, "to call and see if her parents are alive or dead". I think if one of them died, my sisters would probably pass along that information. :lol:

 

Both of my sisters are still sucked into the vortex of trying to appease her. But, they're single, without kids...I guess they have the time for it. I don't. It's a mess...a long, painful history...I dread Christmas because of her behavior.

[Joanne]

Originally Posted by Tigger

 

An example we can all pretty much understand - if we homeschool between 8:30 and noon, we value the time and effort we're making and our children are making in their learning. We set that time aside each day for them to have as time to learn and do their lessons, therefore, during that time, when NPD wants to call and chat, we simply do not answer the phone when they call and expect we'll talk to them because we value the time with our children and their educational needs. An NPD may not like this, may actually ramp up the calls to try to MAKE YOU answer the phone, may leave disturbing, guilt-ridden messages on voice mail, and may even rage at you for not paying attention when they want you to....but it is your time, your phone and your boundary - whether stated to them or not (you don't have to tell the NPD your boundary).....if you continue to hold firm with your boundary, eventually they'll give up (but not always).

 

I used to run a daycare. I was full up to state-standards. That meant a lot of little people running around. My xh insisted I run the daycare; he wanted the income but didn't want me out of the house.

 

He'd call, during the day on weekdays and get upset when I was unable to talk with him uninterupted. I could feel his anger level rise as he heard the inevitable sounds of the daycare. He'd rage, yelling "I should be able to call MY WIFE and talk to her any time I want without some little {blank} in the background."

 

It was some sick *h*t.

[gardenmom5]

Aside, I have a question - are most NPDs passive/aggressive as part of the NPD package, or is that a nice little bonus that I have to deal with? To me, I can soak up a lot of bad vibes from being willing to confront the NPD in my life. But when this person goes p/a, I am not able to engage. How do y'all handle that part of it?

I set limits for myself as to how much contact I would have, and where it would be. It generally needed to be somewhere I could leave if the behavior got out of hand. It was mostly a 15 minute phone call once a week. If my NPDer went over the line - contact was ended for the week. One phone call was five minutes because I wasn't close enough to the base to hang up before that. Granted she was in her 80's when I learned enough to do that. I have had to recently sever contact with my NPD brother. we'll see if he is able to be more human at some future date. I'm not holding my breath.

 

it's worthless to try and engage or counter, you just "deal". as dh likes to say "don't try and teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and annoys the pig."

[gardenmom5]

Both of my sisters are still sucked into the vortex of trying to appease her. But, they're single, without kids...I guess they have the time for it. I don't. It's a mess...a long, painful history...I dread Christmas because of her behavior.

 

NPD mothers will also have "scapegoats", that get blamed for everything. their "prince/princess" they dote upon that can do no wrong; and even their "victim", whom they keep down so they can rescue them. My brother was a "prince", and he is probably also NPD. (he even married two. nasty divorces.) I was the scapegoat. one thing the blogs have stated - the scapegoats are more apt to see "it", whereas their pets' don't. My brother is *still* angry, and brought it up until just before we stopped speaking, that I had such a low opinion of our grandmother. (she's been dead for 18 years) did I mention he was a "prince"?

[thescrappyhomeschooler]

NPD mothers will also have "scapegoats", that get blamed for everything. their "prince/princess" they dote upon that can do no wrong; and even their "victim", whom they keep down so they can rescue them. My brother was a "prince", and he is probably also NPD. (he even married two. nasty divorces.) I was the scapegoat. one thing the blogs have stated - the scapegoats are more apt to see "it", whereas their pets' don't. My brother is *still* angry, and brought it up until just before we stopped speaking, that I had such a low opinion of our grandmother. (she's been dead for 18 years) did I mention he was a "prince"?

 

So true. I was always the "favorite". She told all 5 of us that. To our faces. Fortunately, I was able to see past it. Being the favorite is not all it's cracked up to be if you do not also suffer from NPD. Try making it up to the siblings who are the victims and scapegoats.

 

Anyway, the boundaries and saying no thing cracks me up and makes me think of my most extreme example of saying no. My mom was visiting our house on an evening when the boys were very little. I was exhausted and just wanted to go to bed. I told her I needed her to go home since I was tired and needed to go to sleep. She insisted on doing my dishes, since no one could possibly go to sleep with dirty dishes in the sink. I asked her several times nicely to stop doing the dishes and just leave. I told her I might pass out from exhaustion if I did not get to sleep soon, and since dh was not home, I needed to lock up after she left. She continued to do the dishes. Let's just say the situation disintegrated to a point that I was actually shoving her out the door with her hands still covered in suds! :lol: Not my best moment, but I really needed sleep! That's the kind of thing I'm talking about personally when I say that NPD people do not respect boundaries.

[Tammyla]

:grouphug::iagree:

 

I second the book suggestion, Boundaries, by Cloud & Townsend.

 

Most libraries carry it, and it's well worth the $$ if they don't.

 

(Moving is really good too.)

[LaxMom]

Move far away, if possible. If not, don't answer the phone when they call if you're not in the mood for the drama. Boundaries mean nothing to my narcissistic parent.

 

Exactly. Other people's boundaries, no matter how plainly, frequently, or loudly stated, mean nothing. That is part of the narcissism. In my case, after many years of attempts with clearly defined and completely ignored boundaries set and defended by me, I had to go for total cutoff.

 

I sent Christmas gifts. This will be her opening to challenge boundaries once again. :banghead: sigh.

[LaxMom]

So true. I was always the "favorite". She told all 5 of us that. To our faces. Fortunately, I was able to see past it. Being the favorite is not all it's cracked up to be if you do not also suffer from NPD. Try making it up to the siblings who are the victims and scapegoats.

 

Anyway, the boundaries and saying no thing cracks me up and makes me think of my most extreme example of saying no. My mom was visiting our house on an evening when the boys were very little. I was exhausted and just wanted to go to bed. I told her I needed her to go home since I was tired and needed to go to sleep. She insisted on doing my dishes, since no one could possibly go to sleep with dirty dishes in the sink. I asked her several times nicely to stop doing the dishes and just leave. I told her I might pass out from exhaustion if I did not get to sleep soon, and since dh was not home, I needed to lock up after she left. She continued to do the dishes. Let's just say the situation disintegrated to a point that I was actually shoving her out the door with her hands still covered in suds! :lol: Not my best moment, but I really needed sleep! That's the kind of thing I'm talking about personally when I say that NPD people do not respect boundaries.

I had the same experience. The icing was her deciding that, because I may have been a little nutty in my exhausted desperation, I am bipolar. Because THAT is the only plausible explanation for being exhausted and having run out of energy for "nice". :glare:

[QuirkyKapers]

Here are a few of my favorites situations:

 

*The Phone Call

I get a call. Don't answer. When I call back, oh, I'm sorry I can't talk I'm too busy :glare: Even if it was just a few minutes later...... OR I don't hear from person until they need something.....

Truth learned : Most calls are only because something is needed not just to shoot the breeze. If I am unavaible to do plans or fufill desired need, well, I have never had someone get off the phone so quick in their life.

 

**Offers to help

How come you don't ask me to help? I usually just give a vague answer....However, when I really need help, said person is never available.

Truth Learned: If I help you than you owe me a favor and should be willing to help me, at least once if not more, whenever I want irregardless of what you have going on.

 

***Rotating People

I will keep as many "friends" as possible. In fact, I have to keep making new "friends". This way, if you offend me, I can get what I need from the back ups.

 

***Children

I have no problem having my children ask you to take them somewhere or do something. This way, how can you say no at the expense of my children?

 

***Veiled comments

When I am with others, I need the spotlight. If any focus goes to someone else than I need to retaliate. So, in an oh so sweet voice and all kindness I will say something about you. Really it is a put down or it is something you shared but would never have told an entire group of people.

 

****What are you up too?

This is really a trap. Again, vauge answers work best until I can determine what the intent of the call really is.

 

Whew.....The most interesting thing is I think the person really thinks I have no idea about all the manipulation and am a willing target...

[Lilymax]

Yeah, my younger sister is the favorite and my older sister is more the victim. Mom has done some really rotten things to her that she didn't do to me, such as destroying her relationships. Mom *tried* that nonsense with me when DH and I started dating, but I would not back down. Of course, that earned me wrath for a while. Then she went through a long period of liking my husband, mostly because he would do whatever she asked of him and was very helpful. Now after 20 years of marriage, he is tired of her crap and now that he doesn't jump when asked, she's pretty openly expressing her dislike of him.

 

Last summer, she told our oldest that DH is a lazy bum (totally not true!) and that she doesn't like our youngest child because DH and I have made him "too wild". Of course, SHE decided that our family should only have two children, and never shared our joy over our third blessing.

 

Her loss.

 

Anyway...didn't mean to make this about me, but yeah...I agree with the OP--it is a LOT to think about. I hate it. I hate that so many of us here know what it's like to deal with a mom like that.

[gardenmom5]

Whew.....The most interesting thing is I think the person really thinks I have no idea about all the manipulation and am a willing target...

 

I think they don't ever realize how manipulative they are, or that their behavior can change so dramtically from person to person.

[Tigger]

Here are a few of my favorites situations:

 

***Children

I have no problem having my children ask you to take them somewhere or do something. This way, how can you say no at the expense of my children?

 

 

This is probably one of the biggest issues we had with MIL - she'd ask DS about doing something, hoping we'd say yes so we'd not disappoint him. No MIL, you are disappointing him, not us, because he is not in control of the family calendar, we are. That means if you'd like to know if it's okay to do something with DS, you ask US and you ask US when DS is NOT around, otherwise the answer is an automatic NO, no matter how much fun whatever sounds! Took three "no's" for her to realize we were serious....she now actually asks us and does it without DS around when she asks - that still doesn't up the likelihood we'll actually say yes, but it does protect DS from her manipulations!

[Lilymax]

I think they don't ever realize how manipulative they are, or that their behavior can change so dramatically from person to person.

 

Oh, that is SO true! My mom is truly convinced that she treats all of her daughters equally and fairly. And what's funny is that she hates other people who show NPD tendencies...we all giggle behind her back that the reason she hates them is that they are JUST LIKE HER! :lol:

 

I was looking at a site last night for daughters of NPD moms and there was a list of movies and TV shows featuring narcissistic characters. One was Marie from "Everybody Loves Raymond." My husband and I often watch that show, and my older two boys, whenever they've seen it, have said, "Marie reminds me of Nana!" Which is hilarious because they obviously have no clinical knowledge of NPD, but they sure know what it looks like!

[gardenmom5]

Yeah, my younger sister is the favorite and my older sister is more the victim. Mom has done some really rotten things to her that she didn't do to me, such as destroying her relationships. Mom *tried* that nonsense with me when DH and I started dating, but I would not back down. Of course, that earned me wrath for a while. Then she went through a long period of liking my husband, mostly because he would do whatever she asked of him and was very helpful. Now after 20 years of marriage, he is tired of her crap and now that he doesn't jump when asked, she's pretty openly expressing her dislike of him.

 

Last summer, she told our oldest that DH is a lazy bum (totally not true!) and that she doesn't like our youngest child because DH and I have made him "too wild". Of course, SHE decided that our family should only have two children, and never shared our joy over our third blessing.

 

Her loss.

 

Anyway...didn't mean to make this about me, but yeah...I agree with the OP--it is a LOT to think about. I hate it. I hate that so many of us here know what it's like to deal with a mom like that.

 

 

My mother had the sad position of being an only - and was trained to do her NPD mother's bidding. so, :iagree: everything you describe. I was the third (and was made the scapegoat), but my mother still tried to please her mother (ain't gonna happen.), and sacrificed us, and her marriage, on her alter.

 

my recommendation is PROTECT your children! get them away from her. my sister was so messed up, my brother is NPD, and I was the "third", extraneous extra who served no purpose but to take resources away from "poor sissie, who had such a hard life", and I got that message from the time I was little. (success really is the best revenge.) Keep your children away from her.

[G5052]

I think they don't ever realize how manipulative they are, or that their behavior can change so dramtically from person to person.

 

Basically you have to recognize that the way they think and the way they interact isn't at all the way you do. And it is a WRONG way of thinking and interacting. You may know reasons why this behavior became their norm, but don't make excuses for them.

 

Over the years I periodically had no contact or sometimes had limited contact, but the best thing I ever did was to move many states away when an opportunity presented itself. And even though mine is gone now, the fallout in my extended family goes on in some individuals who didn't work through the situation. So be aware of that.

 

Another good book is Will I Ever Be Good Enough? Healing the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers by Karyl McBride.